Burns & Novick: The Vietnam War - General Discussion

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, officetemp said:

 

The reveal that most of the North Vietnamese leadership sent their children out of harm's way while urging the ordinary citizenry to commit everything to the "Revolution" should not have surprised me, but it did.  The contrast in the images of the Party Elite offspring comfortably passing the time in Moscow, etc., while the ordinary North Vietnamese struggled to ferry supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail while under constant bombardment by US forces was so stark.

 

I was surprised by this too, and what struck me was that it was an absolute mirror image of the U.S. - the children of the wealthy rarely served (unless they volunteered) while poor working class kids got drafted. I guess I was expecting more patriotic fervor at higher economic levels N. Vietnamese side since they were trying to drive out perceived invaders & interlopers. 

2 hours ago, officetemp said:

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Cheezwiz

[SusanSunflower]

I suspect that the "elites" of North Vietnam were concerned about the survival of the "next generation" of the revolution ... even about their children, by virtue of their position, being at specific risk because they were likely targets.   The brain drain and exodus of the educated and middle classes are a very real problem in all war zones.  In Afghanistan, with the rise of the Taliban, the educated elite decamped in large numbers or stayed very close to home in the cities (The taliban's consolidation of power was never strong).  In Iraq, the educated elites, doctors, lawyers and managers all decamped after a few years of patient hoping that things would improve and/or the ban on Sunni/Baathist party member employment would be lifted ... terrible, even catastrophic loss.  Syria has also lost many members of its elites who simply bailed after 3+ years of things getting worse and no end in sight -- they had the means ($$) to leave and the skills (language and others) to make a new and they did often citing their children's education and safety.  The peasant whose child helped maintain the trail was also investing themselves and their child's future (as they saw it). 

That is one thing worth a mention was how young so many American soldiers, volunteers in particular, were. ... or maybe not ... The internet by the google first page of hits proves this is also a "fact" also in contention.  https://www.quora.com/Why-were-American-soldiers-in-the-Vietnam-War-so-young-The-average-age-was-19  So what else is new?    I suspect the "average age" varied by region and year of the war ... In a big city, people could with little effort "dodge the draft" because catching draft dodgers was lower in priority than rounding up the newly eligible/notified. In other areas, where quotas were harder to meet, vigorously tracking down "draft dodgers" had benefit for those on the local selective service panel (and made room even with quotas for deferrals of the "more worthy" or better connected).  Regardless, yes, they looked awfully young to me. 

 

The draft had been active for years ... I'm not sure of the history but Korea was involved less-than-eager draftees.  Many countries even now have mandatory voluntary service.  I never really understood why the use of National Guard volunteers in Iraq (particularly with stop-loss) was not a bigger deal.  Joining the national or state guard was also a way for the less than wealthy to pay for college and get a valuable career-enhancing resume items. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

So due to the flu, I wasn't in any condition or mood to watch this online over the weekend.

I'm really behind, but I watched the first episode and I have to say, the constant back and forth between the 1940s to 1967 just gave me whiplash and confusion. And I feel like the world's biggest IDIOT that I didn't even KNOW that Ho Chi Minh City was named after a real person, Ho Chi Minh. There's no excuse for this as I've seen so many documentaries on and about Vietnam, that I didn't know this.

[shapeshifter]

I happened to watch most of tonight's—my first episode since #2. My boyfriend was drafted in the lottery, so coincidentally they were covering the year he was there. I kept thinking I saw him in the background.

When I realize how much of this I read about, saw on TV, or saw in Chicago at the time, I have to wonder if I was in some sort of fuge state, or almost a split consciousness. I never thought he was in danger or just shouldn't be there. How did I do that? I just kept sealing the envelopes and putting them out in the mailbox at the end of our driveway 6 days a week, putting the little flag up on the mailbox.  In a movie, would the raising of the little mailbox flag symbolize patriotism or surrender?
ETA:
Oh Gød. Now I'm picturing my teenage self only raising it half way and…

Edited September 27, 2017 by shapeshifter

[magdalene]

I always knew Nixon was crooked and corrupt but I hadn't realized he was truly evil until this series and this episode.

[Cheezwiz]

Episode 8: More really tough stuff. My Lai and Kent State. I don't really have any words - just pure awfulness.

The helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson, who interrupted the massacre, along with the soldiers who tried to lead civilians to safety and hide them were true heroes. Apparently the military treated them as traitors in the immediate aftermath. Sadly, I don't think much has changed today - as someone in this episode stated "not official policy, but not an aberration either".

I teared up watching the Kent State footage. As famous as that single photo of the wailing girl standing over one of the shooting victims is, I realized I never knew the names of the students who were killed, or anything about them at all really. I cannot imagine what their parents went through.

Because I'm from Vancouver, I found the story of Jack Todd, the Nebraska war resister who came across the border, and became a reporter interesting and touching. He had to have been a journalist for the Vancouver Sun, at some point, but I did not recognize his name. Apparently he now lives in Montreal and writes for the Gazette.

[magdalene]

I had never heard of these Kent State killings I feel very ignorant now. . I can't fathom American soldiers shooting unarmed American kids in America. I guess I am naive.  And am I understanding this right - they killed this one kid who wasn't even part of the protest and his poor parents got hate mail afterwards from fellow Americans telling these parents that they were glad their "commie" son was dead.  It makes you despair for humanity really.

[kassygreene]

There exists on the net some really good write-ups of Kent State.  I read a very long long-form article I think in May 2016 covering who what when where (why is, among other things, the politicians involved in ordering up the Guard were dicks) (in case it isn't obvious, I was not Silent Majority material).  Can't remember where I read it, but the wiki entry isn't bad.

The kids in the Guard (really, 19-year-old kids) were wearing gas masks, which screws with hearing, vision, and is hot and humid on the inside; they did not pick off individuals, but they had been out there in that kit for quite awhile, they were not well informed about what was happening, they were frightened, and they had firepower.  They certainly did not have the specialized training for dealing with riots or (as was the case here) unarmed demonstrators.

Insane shit like this has happened forever.  When it happens in front of cameras is when people start to say now wait a goddam minute.  As much as I loathe the dumbass behaviors that go with social media, having a record of what happened, and being able to share it, is probably the only way to persuade most sheeple that yes, this shit does happen.

Edited September 27, 2017 by kassygreene
spelling

[CarpeDiem54]

This was another really tough episode to watch.  But as terrible as some of this stuff is to watch, I can't tear myself away.  It's really the best TV I've ever seen.  The soundtrack was the soundtrack of my life.

I'm a huge Crosby, Stills, Nash (and Young) fan and have seen them in concert over a dozen times.  Every time they've played Ohio, which isn't often, I've cried.  Tonight, at the end of the episode, I lost it.

I remember that day well.  While watching the news (The Huntley Brinkley Report), my Dad got huge tears in his eyes.  He didn't often swear and I'd never seen him cry.  When my patriotic WWII veteran Dad announced that "If this shit is still going on when Steve (my little brother) turns 18, I'll drive him to Canada myself.  The damned government is now shooting our own kids here at home, for God's sake.  It's bad enough that they're sending kids to some Godforsaken country that hates us to fight. What is the world coming to?"  He then went upstairs for a long time.  I knew he was up there crying.

My mother was slamming around in the kitchen while doing dishes and I was just numb in the living room.  

I don't know who these people are who thought the shootings were "justified".  I never met them.  Everyone in my high school, including the teachers, and neighbors were horrified.  It's the only thing people talked about for days.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

My mother was slamming around in the kitchen

I love your writing, CarpeDiem.

 

1 hour ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I don't know who these people are who thought the shootings were "justified".  

 I've done lots of reading about Kent State, but that final statistic of (was it 38%?) thinking those college kids deserved to die was new and staggering to me.  Who in their right mind could think they deserved to die for expressing their opinion on a college campus?  I was also horrified to hear that one boy was paralyzed for life.  You always hear the death number from incidents like this, but often the forgotten "injured," are suffering fates almost worse than death.

I was so moved by the African American soldier in Vietnam (sorry can't remember names) saying that he not only killed that man in the tunnel he killed the civilized version of himself. That's a very real casualty of war that is never counted. 

Then we have the My Lai story.  Ken Burns has put this all together so well.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't know who these people are who thought the shootings were "justified".  I never met them.  Everyone in my high school, including the teachers, and neighbors were horrified.  It's the only thing people talked about for days.

To play devil's advocate, there was violence leading up to the final confrontation.  The protestors had burned down the ROTC building, and had actively interfered with efforts to bring the fire under control, which, of course, endangers everyone.  The protestors also had engaged with the National Guard, refusing to disperse and throwing rocks at them.  As just a general thing, I'd guess there was probably also a sense of fatigue over these types of protests, as they had been going on for years and there was a feeling that various administrators at various colleges had let students do whatever they wanted, leading to more chaos and violence.  This is not to say that I believe the killings were justified, only that I can see the argument turning in someone's head over it. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by txhorns79

[PodcastTown]

That My Lai massacre and the Kent state shooting aggravated me. Bout to destroy my TV just a second there. 

[friendperidot]

One thing this show is doing is letting us have discussions. And maybe some of these discussions can lead to more healing. It broke my heart during those times, but for me there has been little healings while other life issues took it's place. This has been ripping off the bandages and breaking my heart in new ways. Learning so much I never knew before. And in an odd way, gaining a little hope for the future. It was so awful, there was so much trying to rip our country apart. So much division. Vile, lying, greedy, corrupt politicians, all sort of like today. It changed us, but we did come out on the other side, some of us stronger, some of us broken, but I think there were advances in our understandings of others, those different than us. That's kind of disappeared or gone underground again, but I'm getting hope from this documentary that we can find our way out of dark times again.

[Lady Iris]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:38 PM, Brattinella said:

I must tell you, Lady Iris, I love your username!  Brings back fond memories!

Thank you BRATTINELLA! :-)

 

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:39 AM, JudyObscure said:

The honesty we're getting from theses veterans is  breath taking.

I can't help but hope it's helpful to them to tell their stories and be heard.

 

I've only watched the first episode and the beginning of the 2nd part. It's like an immersive history class. As a previous poster mentioned about feeling like an idiot, I'll cop to that too. I always thought the Viet Cong was a separate entity of fighters within the country, not the actual North Vietnamese army.

 

Still have a long way to go watching this. It's not something I can binge but aside from wanting to watch it, I feel an obligation as well.

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I've only watched the first episode and the beginning of the 2nd part. It's like an immersive history class. As a previous poster mentioned about feeling like an idiot, I'll cop to that too. I always thought the Viet Cong was a separate entity of fighters within the country, not the actual North Vietnamese army.

That was me. And like you, I won't be able to binge on this. I'm still recovering from the bloody flu, so can only watch one episode at a time. I have good internet connection, and yet in the first 10 minutes, the video would pause/stick/skip. I reported it to PBS, but don't know if it will do any good.  The first episode hardly had any bad language. two or three "shits" I think. So I'm wondering if I shouldn't just watch the rest on my television. Don't know why they have edited versions on broadcast, anyway. If stoopid shows like Suits, which airs on USA can have the f-bombs unbleeped, then this series, which is so much better and really, a documentary, should be able to broadcast all the swear words.

[Constantinople]

I didn't like the first episode when they kept jumping back an forth in time.  I don't think that added anything and it only made it more confusing.  Glad they dropped that in subsequent episodes.

Aside from that I 'm appreciating this series very much even though I knew some of the basics (I'm not sure "enjoy" is quite the right word).

Minor quibble with O'Brien:  Unless that bus could fly, there's no way it could get from Ft Lewis to Canada in anything close to 90 minutes.

[JTM]

58%. 58% of Americans thought Kent State was justified.

I paused when I knew My Lai was coming, so that I could secure comfort chocolate in advance.

58% nearly brought it up again.

[GHScorpiosRule]

And heeeere's the first criticism of the series. This professor is saying that Burns just glossed over the fact that Kennedy had a plan to withdraw from Vietnam.

I skimmed over it, but will read it more carefully later, as I'm still sick and my brain still feels like swiss cheese.

[SusanSunflower]

I had forgotten (or never known) that after the shooting at Kent State, the guard threatened the students with more shooting if they failed to disperse ....  man, that's colder than I could have imagined.  (I was out of the country at the time, but had experienced a "police riot" 2 years earlier in which (nonviolent, middle aged and younger) friends had been beaten when trapped by circumstances (some jokers at the front of a peace march decided ad hoc to sit down and refuse to disperse .... the 5000 people behind them had no idea and nowhere to go as they converged on what was supposed to be a round-about.   I simply turned tail and ran and ran as it became obvious (by the loud arrival through the demonstrators of about 50 LAPD motorcycle policemen) 

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

To play devil's advocate, there was violence leading up to the final confrontation.  The protestors had burned down the ROTC building, and had actively interfered with efforts to bring the fire under control, which, of course, endangers everyone.  The protestors also had engaged with the National Guard, refusing to disperse and throwing rocks at them. 

I think those actions would justify the police, or National Guardsmen, to  move in, handcuff and arrest the specific people who were burning things, interfering with the firefighters or throwing rocks. They had no right to  shoot those people, because they were unarmed. But,  in my opinion, the Guard was never, in the slightest bit, justified in shooting random students who were just part of the crowd.

[monakane]

On 9/26/2017 at 8:39 AM, JudyObscure said:

And even after he was caught, tied up and beaten, he still wanted to eat the cat.

I was interested to hear the one man tell about how exciting and thrilling (like a cocaine high) it was to be in the midst of battle.  I was wondering if anyone was going to talk about that.  You could see a certain amount of thrill in some of their faces -- more often, pure terror, of course.

The honesty we're getting from theses veterans is  breath taking.

The story that struck me was the veteran talking about the woman who was exchanging sexual favors for rations.  I was moved by his honesty and his sense of shame and I thought it was brave of him to speak publicly about it.  It was the first time I've ever heard a vet speak openly about what happens to women during wars.  War and combat can make otherwise honorable people do horrible things.  I wonder what became of that poor woman and the thousands like her.   I hope she found peace and security after the war.

Edited September 27, 2017 by monakane

[LADreamr]

I think this might be Ken Burns's finest work, and that's a very high bar.  The series is enthralling, and as difficult as it is to watch, I'm kind of sorry it's almost over. 

I only wish he had included the Orangeburg Massacre as part of the violence of 1968.  It was a protest against segregation on a South Carolina campus that ended with the police shooting 30 students, killing three, all of them shot in the back.  Very few people know about it, but it's very much a precursor to Kent State. 

[sleekandchic]

4 hours ago, LADreamr said:

I think this might be Ken Burns's finest work, and that's a very high bar.  The series is enthralling, and as difficult as it is to watch, I'm kind of sorry it's almost over. 

[Bold] I only wish he had included the Orangeburg Massacre as p art of the violence of 1968.  It was a protest against segregation on a South Carolina campus that ended with the police shooting 30 students, killing three, all of them shot in the back.  Very few people know about it, but it's very much a precursor to Kent State.[/Bold]

I've been away from home and work in the past few weeks, and have had the chance to watch this series only last night and tonight:  episodes 8 and 9.  In an unexpected and almost mystical way, both episodes have soothed my racing mind and tortured soul over our current state of American policies.

If this country survived the lies, immorality and machinations of LBJ and Nixon/Kissinger...and the corrosive nature of us versus them...and the divide between the different classes exploited by Washington...and the false conflation of  flag and true patriotism.... AND the cruelty, heartbreak and injustice of killing innocent children and babies...well?  As long as we are constantly vigilant, I believe we can survive ANYTHING.  In tonight's episode, people responding to Gallup polls questioning Nixon's lies and cutthroat machinations overwhelmingly supported him.  I will keep reminding myself of that fact.

@LADreamrM

Edited September 28, 2017 by sleekandchic
Can't fix last line. Sorry LADREAMR!

[Etchgirl]

The war started before I was born and ended when I was 9. I have older sisters and I remember my oldest sister saying she remembered the body counts being reported on the nightly news.

I used to respect Henry Kissinger...now, after hearing what he was discussing with Nixon, I hate his guts...

I remember the famous picture of Kim Phuc running and crying (the girl with the burns from the Napalm attack) and I always wondered whatever happened to her, if she died...Glad to find out she's living in Canada (she should be in her late 50s) by now...

[Brattinella]

2 hours ago, LADreamr said:

I think this might be Ken Burns's finest work, and that's a very high bar.  The series is enthralling, and as difficult as it is to watch, I'm kind of sorry it's almost over. 

I only wish he had included the Orangeburg Massacre as part of the violence of 1968.  It was a protest against segregation on a South Carolina campus that ended with the police shooting 30 students, killing three, all of them shot in the back.  Very few people know about it, but it's very much a precursor to Kent State. 

Thank you very much for pointing out the Orangeburg Massacre.   I had never heard of this tragedy before. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Pretty much just going to cry during every episode of this ... 

This episode, it was the former POWs describing finally coming home and the pictures of Kim Phuc that got me.  Also the former Vietnamese soldiers tearing up as they talked about how many died so young.

 

Eva Jefferson standing up to the Vice President on the David Frost show and calmly correcting him was pretty cool, though.    I had never heard about that before.  

Edited September 28, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[Etchgirl]

My first exposure to the war was the HBO documentary "Dear America"... I still remember most of it, but "The Vietnam War" has opened up a lot more opportunities for discussion about what happened then and what is happening now...

But I do have a question though: why does it seem whenever the American government pokes it nose into the affairs of some other country, we always get into trouble and cannot extricate ourselves from it?

I remember the documentary that McNamara was in "The Fog of War". When he went to Vietnam in the 80s and the government official explained to him that the Viet Cong considered the U.S. as an "invader" and would have fought us forever to drive us out of their country...that struck me as "how can the US be so arrogant as to presume they know what is right for another country?"

[sleekandchic]

13 minutes ago, Brattinella said:

Thank you very much for pointing out the Orangeburg Massacre.   I had never heard of this tragedy before. 

In Episode 8, we were told that two students at Jackson State U, Mississippi, while sitting in their DORM, were shot and killed by police through a front window.  There was a demonstration going on, but the two guys killed were sitting in their DORM.

[LADreamr]

Also wanted to note that the Marine vet John Musgrave is mesmerizing. I could watch him talk about his experience for hours. 

It amazes me how people can be convinced that other people's lives don't mean as much. It seems like such a giant leap for a human being to make. But as a former Marine myself (didn't have to see combat, thank God), I know what little it takes to brainwash someone, especially when you're pumping up their ego. It's a finer line than we'd like to believe. 

[magdalene]

Did you notice how Agnew was looking at Eva Jefferson like she was something to be scraped from under his finger nails? Another disgusting American politician revealed as slime.  Nixon. Kissinger. All slime.

Luckily Nixon was arrogant enough to record all his crimes on tapes.  Oh, what's a little burglary when you are the American President and believe you can get away with anything.

I am also disgusted that Calley only got 3 years of house arrest for his war crimes.

[Brattinella]

30 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am also disgusted that Calley only got 3 years of house arrest for his war crimes.

I am disgusted that HE was the only one who got any time at all!

[sleekandchic]

33 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Did you notice how Agnew was looking at Eva Jefferson like she was something to be scraped from under his finger nails? Another disgusting American politician revealed as slime.  Nixon. Kissinger. All slime.

Luckily Nixon was arrogant enough to record all his crimes on tapes.  Oh, what's a little burglary when you are the American President and believe you can get away with anything.

I am also disgusted that Calley only got 3 years of house arrest for his war crimes.

One of the real-time commentators (a Vietnam Marine) said Calley was "sick."  I wonder about him; I need to research his background.

My Lai looked to be populated by the very very old, women,  and little ones. Did our govt investigate what incited Calley to give his orders? What enraged him and set him on fire?  Did he think the villagers were hiding young male soldiers?  Did a woman refuse him sex? Was he hungry? Did a baby cry? What flipped William Calley's switch?  I want to know that.

My parents and grams are a wealth of info about the 60s and 70s and Vietnam. Sweet and gentle Swedes who never ever raise their voices...but who often scare me with the uncharacteristic ferocity of their memories of that time.  I took many undergrad classes on Vietnam ONLY because of their insistence! They DEMANDED my opinions! :)

I called them tonight to ask about Agnew.  Omg! Their feelings are STRONG!  I agree with Magdalene.  Slimy slime who slimes.

May I say, I am enjoying all the participants' grammatical accuracy? Superficial I know!  Subject/predicate agreements are rare in 2017!  But you know? As I listened to Nixon, I thought, he speaks well. He's an educated man.  Then I got a lump in my throat.  He should have been a better, more decent man. Worthy of his office ...at least in spirit.

[magdalene]

I knew Jane Fonda had gotten into trouble for her political views during the Vietnam War but I didn't know any of the details.  Running around Hanoi alternating between being filmed with a huge shit-eating grin and pontificating about American POW's being war criminals - good grief!

Speaking of POW's -  showing them on the plane celebrating coming home made me cry.

[Bastet]

Many years ago, Jane Fonda published her account of the infamous trip to Hanoi; it's good reading. 

[sleekandchic]

1 hour ago, LADreamr said:

Also wanted to note that the Marine vet John Musgrave is mesmerizing. I could watch him talk about his experience for hours. 

It amazes me how people can be convinced that other people's lives don't mean as much. It seems like such a giant leap for a human being to make. But as a former Marine myself (didn't have to see combat, thank God), I know what little it takes to brainwash someone, especially when you're pumping up their ego. It's a finer line than we'd like to believe. 

Was John the Marine who remembered Jane Fonda as his fantasy girl?  

I like all of the real-time commentators. American, Vietnamese, civilian, military. Doctors, nurses.  Siblings.  They're thoughtful and reflective and human.

I'm not sure that people can be easily convinced that other people's lives don't mean as much as their own.  I remember watching a WW2 show with a very, very old client.  I think the footage was from the very end of the war.  Our soldiers had taken a Japanese village or island. But those poor people were so indoctrinated and terrified that they hid in caves and tunnels and underground. Refused to surrender.   But when many Japanese finally emerged, the American GIs were so kind and loving. The medics ministered. The soldiers passed cigarettes and chocolate bars. The boys held little ones close to their chests.   All the Japanese seemed tiny and fragile;  all the Americans were tall and strong.  The show had actual footage. Our guys were slow and easy and loving.

I don't know.  I think WW2 might have been explained better to our guys? Maybe? Vietnam was a mystery, a cipher. Like WTF?  Add to it, the pot and the heroin. Agent Orange and napalm-saturated air.  The hours and days of mindnumbing NOTHING...then, boom! Hell on Earth. I don't know.

After years as a social worker, I still cry for everyone. My hard-shell gene doesn't work.

Edited September 28, 2017 by sleekandchic

[LADreamr]

20 minutes ago, sleekandchic said:

Was John the Marine who remembered Jane Fonda as his fantasy girl?

That's him.  He has published books of poetry about his time in Vietnam. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by LADreamr

[Sandman87]

24 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I knew Jane Fonda had gotten into trouble for her political views during the Vietnam War but I didn't know any of the details.  Running around Hanoi alternating between being filmed with a huge shit-eating grin and pontificating about American POW's being war criminals - good grief!

And going on radio there to encourage the North Vietnamese to keep fighting us, don't forget. Yeah Jane, tell us again in a self-serving article about how concerned you were for our poor boys in uniform.

[sleekandchic]

3 hours ago, Etchgirl said:

The war started before I was born and ended when I was 9. I have older sisters and I remember my oldest sister saying she remembered the body counts being reported on the nightly news.

I used to respect Henry Kissinger...now, after hearing what he was discussing with Nixon, I hate his guts...

I remember the famous picture of Kim Phuc running and crying (the girl with the burns from the Napalm attack) and I always wondered whatever happened to her, if she died...Glad to find out she's living in Canada (she should be in her late 50s) by now...

Etchgirl, did you see the sweet picture of Kim Phuc holding her newborn, skin to skin? Kim's physical scars were deep. Her infant was gorgeous.

Did you observe Kim during the footage they showed tonight?  Such a strong and self-possessed child. Of course, there was a deep element of shock. Still, she was a pillar of strength.  

[sleekandchic]

39 minutes ago, LADreamr said:

That's him.  He has published books of poetry about his time in Vietnam. 

I'm not surprised. He was generous and kind in his critique of Fonda.  He made it a point to say that she wasn't the only critic...just the one they used to fantasize about.  I will look for his poetry.

Did you know that a disproportionate number of homeless, living on the streets of NYC,  are Vietnam vets?  Substance abuse, mental illness and debilitating physical challenges.  Every one I've known and worked with has been vulnerable, sweet and grateful for a word of simple kindness.

My last visit to Washington D.C. was in April 2002.  (I was a freshman on 9/11, smack in NYC, and became patriotic to the nth degree.) Insisted that a couple of sibs and grams came along on the trip.  We saw the Wall.  It engulfs you, overwhelms you.  If you are a sensitive or empathetic person, the Wall will whisper to you and make you alert!  Honest to God, the Wall is alive.

Last night, episode 8, a boy named Michael Holmes was profiled.  I think his middle initial was D?  I will check that.  I will be in DC again this December, and I want to touch Mike's name and whisper a prayer of thanks

The Vietnam Memorial is BRILLIANT in its personalization.

I will watch tomorrow's finale, but then go back to the episodes I've missed. I love books. I think Burns and Novick have produced a living, breathing book. We are lucky.

[Cheezwiz]

So much to think about in this episode.

I was floored by the stats on soldiers on active duty who were using heroin. I knew drug-use happened in the field, but figured it was mostly weed. Yikes.

I wanted to cheer watching the footage of Eva Jefferson debating Vice President Agnew on the David Frost Show. She kicked his ass in the most calm polite manner imaginable!

The footage of the Veterans Against War hurling their medals over the barricades in front of the White House was heartbreaking.

I had no idea that Calley was the only one prosecuted for My Lai, and even then it wound up being just a slap on the wrist (thanks to Nixon's machinations).

1 hour ago, sleekandchic said:

My Lai looked to be populated by the very very old, women,  and little ones. Did our govt investigate what incited Calley to give his orders? What enraged him and set him on fire?  Did he think the villagers were hiding young male soldiers?  Did a woman refuse him sex? Was he hungry? Did a baby cry? What flipped William Calley's switch?  I want to know that.

I want to know more about this too. An absolute outrage. Everyone involved, including military superiors - ESPECIALLY military superiors, should have gone to jail. How sad that everyone still knows Calley's name and not the name of the helicopter pilot who tried to stop the massacre, or the names of soldiers who tried to lead the civilians to safety.

The photos and footage of the POW's coming home was so moving, as was the interview with the M.D. (Hursh? sorry forgetting his name at the moment) remembering how he wanted a glass of coke with ice and chewing gum on the plane ride to the U.S., and then breaking down when he was embraced by a military muckety-muck when he arrived home. And all those years he was missing, his wife never gave up believing.

I had always dismissed Jane Fonda's actions in N. Vietnam as youthful misguided folly, and thought "oh good grief, it was forty years ago people, let it GO", now having seen more detail  I understand why some people couldn't. Man, it was really ignorant and offensive.

I'm glad that Kim Phuc - the little girl in the famous photo, was able to immigrate to Canada and make a life for herself.

Loved LOVED all of the photos of the interview subjects over the closing credits.

Only one more episode to go. It's been super intense, but I am really going to miss watching this.

[Cheezwiz]

16 minutes ago, sleekandchic said:

My last visit to Washington D.C. was in April 2002.  (I was a freshman on 9/11, smack in NYC, and became patriotic to the nth degree.) Insisted that a couple of sibs and grams came along on the trip.  We saw the Wall.  It engulfs you, overwhelms you.  If you are a sensitive or empathetic person, the Wall will whisper to you and make you alert!  Honest to God, the Wall is alive.

Last night, episode 8, a boy named Michael Holmes was profiled.  I think his middle initial was D?  I will check that.  I will be in DC again this December, and I want to touch Mike's name and whisper a prayer of thanks

The Vietnam Memorial is BRILLIANT in its personalization.

I am not American, but if I ever make it to Washington D.C., that memorial is one of the things I'd really like to see. I was a teenager when it was completed and dedicated, and there was a lot of media coverage of it at the time - something that also sparked my interest in learning more about the war. There was also a great deal of controversy around it because the designer of the memorial was a very young Asian woman who had won a competition. Some veterans took exception to this.

Even back then at my tender age, I was awestruck by the simplicity and poignancy of the design. It is now one of the most beloved monuments in D.C.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Cheezwiz

[sleekandchic]

Cheezwiz...please do go. Please stand in front of a section of your choice and just observe or listen or absorb. You will know what I mean. :)

And the Lincoln Memorial, okay?  I'm convinced President Lincoln watches ALL of us there!

[kassygreene]

3 hours ago, Etchgirl said:

My first exposure to the war was the HBO documentary "Dear America"... I still remember most of it, but "The Vietnam War" has opened up a lot more opportunities for discussion about what happened then and what is happening now...

But I do have a question though: why does it seem whenever the American government pokes it nose into the affairs of some other country, we always get into trouble and cannot extricate ourselves from it?

I remember the documentary that McNamara was in "The Fog of War". When he went to Vietnam in the 80s and the government official explained to him that the Viet Cong considered the U.S. as an "invader" and would have fought us forever to drive us out of their country...that struck me as "how can the US be so arrogant as to presume they know what is right for another country?"

It's U.S. Manifest Destiny plus White Man's Automatic Superiority plus Teddy Roosevelt, with strong lashings of Bobby McNamara's unyielding belief in his own demi-godhood.

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

Did you notice how Agnew was looking at Eva Jefferson like she was something to be scraped from under his finger nails? Another disgusting American politician revealed as slime.  Nixon. Kissinger. All slime.

Luckily Nixon was arrogant enough to record all his crimes on tapes.  Oh, what's a little burglary when you are the American President and believe you can get away with anything.

I am also disgusted that Calley only got 3 years of house arrest for his war crimes.

Agnew was the Governor of Maryland before he was nominated VP - old white southerner being corrected / talked back to / not properly respected by a calmly, rationally, articulate college student who was also (probably) the wrong party, definitely black, and (probably) even worse, female.  Such people were not supposed to meet the southern white male with a presumption of equality.

I barely knew anything about Agnew myself until he was forced to resign, and I seem to remember that no one thought he was worth a damn.  One of those running mates selected to deliver a region, in his case the South.

27 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

...

I had always dismissed Jane Fonda's actions in N. Vietnam as youthful misguided folly, and thought "oh good grief, it was forty years ago people, let it GO", now having seen more detail  I understand why some people couldn't. Man, it was really ignorant and offensive.

...

As I recall, she was 35. She also grew up in Hollywood.  One would expect she'd have a better sense of when someone is using her for her name & fame....  Yep, I don't cut her much slack.  But I have seen Barbarella, so even as a straight female I understand John Musgrave's reasoning.

6 minutes ago, sleekandchic said:

Cheezwiz...please do go. Please stand in front of a section of your choice and just observe or listen or absorb. You will know what I mean. :)

And the Lincoln Memorial, okay?  I'm convinced President Lincoln watches ALL of us there!

There used to be and probably still is a bus tour of DC called something like Memorials by Moonlight.  In fact there are probably several.  If the weather is good (ideally clear and a full moon) it is fantastic.  The bus takes you around the memorials; you get off, walk around, and get back on.  My knees were crap when I did this, so I was able to see every Memorial except the Wall.  As I remember we started with Jefferson, did FDR, then a three-for-one at the Lincoln Memorial, with the Korean and the Wall, and finished at the WWII. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by kassygreene
completeness

[Cheezwiz]

2 minutes ago, sleekandchic said:

Cheezwiz...please do go. Please stand in front of a section of your choice and just observe or listen or absorb. You will know what I mean. :)

I understand what you are saying. : )

One of the  things that impresses about this memorial, apart from the stark simplicity (which many people derided at the time it was unveiled) is the fact that it's also tactile. So people can simply stand in front of it and absorb its energy as you are describing, or they can touch their fingers to it and run them along the carved names of lost loved ones.

The designer Maya Li has said she wanted it to be a symbol of healing, and I think she achieved this.

[PodcastTown]

Calley and the rest of his goons should've gotten the electric chair. WTF??? Why is this dude still walking?

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, kassygreene said:

There used to be and probably still is a bus tour of DC called something like Memorials by Moonlight.  In fact there are probably several.  If the weather is good (ideally clear and a full moon) it is fantastic.  The bus takes you around the memorials; you get off, walk around, and get back on.  My knees were crap when I did this, so I was able to see every Memorial except the Wall.  As I remember we started with Jefferson, did FDR, then a three-for-one at the Lincoln Memorial, with the Korean and the Wall, and finished at the WWII. 

Okay, I've lived near D.C. (live in MD) most of my life, but how did I NOT know about the Memorials by Moonlight? I'm going to have to look that up and do it! And if any of y'all plan to come here soon, give me a heads up! I would love to meet you! 

[JudyObscure]

For those who want to know more about My Lai, Tim O'Brian, one of the narrators, has written about it in his prize winning collection of Vietnam stories, "The Things they Carried," and his novel, "In the Lake of the Woods," features a protagonist who was at My Lai and severely damaged from the experience.  My book club read the novel, then some of us read everything online about My Lai, then we all sunk into a blue funk about it. It was very easy for us to see why Tim O'Brian became so obsessed that his entire career has been related to it.  I don't think anything really explains Calley, but O'Brian does a good job of explaining the actions of the men under him who were afraid of being shot by Calley, confused and terrified. Several people who were there remember one soldier who shot people while sobbing.

[Moose135]

7 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I am not American, but if I ever make it to Washington D.C., that memorial is one of the things I'd really like to see. I

You absolutely should visit the memorial if you get to DC.  I was in college (and AFROTC) when it was dedicated.  I went to DC for the weekend with some friends and attended the dedication ceremony.

I've never done the Monuments by Moonlight tour, but I love to photograph DC at night - a couple of years back, I spent the night on the Mall photographing the monuments.  Even at 3am, there were some folks at the Lincoln Memorial. 

  @GHScorpiosRule, I hit DC several times a year going between NY and NC, I'll give you a shout next time I'm passing through.

[Cheezwiz]

Wow, @Moose135! Gorgeous photos! Thanks for sharing!

[txhorns79]

Quote

And going on radio there to encourage the North Vietnamese to keep fighting us, don't forget. Yeah Jane, tell us again in a self-serving article about how concerned you were for our poor boys in uniform.

I viewed her as a case of someone who was concerned for the troops (in the sense that she was against the war and thought the troops were being placed in harm's way unnecessarily), but was also very naive.  You Must Remember This, a podcast I enjoy, recently did a segment about Jane Fonda and Jean Seberg, and their activism during the 60s/70s.  I think Jane made a very easy and convenient target for politicians and pro-war pundits, and allowed them to deflect from their much more consequential roles in continuing a pointless war.  I also think Jane got in way over her head, and gave too little thought as to how her actions would be perceived.    

Edited September 28, 2017 by txhorns79