Burns & Novick: The Vietnam War - General Discussion

[GHScorpiosRule]

So it's called "Monuments by Moonlight" and from Nov. 6-March 12, they are at 6:30pm, from March 13-Nov. 5 at 7:30pm, and take you to the following monuments:

• Thomas Jefferson Memorial
• FDR Memorial
• Lincoln Memorial
• Vietnam Veterans Memorial
• Korean War Memorial
• Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial

It departs from Union Station and it's $37.80 for adults, $28.80 for children between 4-12; and Free for kids under 4.

[LADreamr]

Thank you, @GHScorpiosRule! I'm going to keep this in mind, too.

[SusanSunflower]

Jane Fonda was under pressure to prove to her new radical politics comrades that she was genuinely committed to the Vietnamese (and other) liberation movements.  (Tom Hayden had people scoffing his choice of partner, particularly since Fonda was generously supporting many groups).  She was genuinely more of a neophyte than she knew and the North Vietnam videos were a disaster, particularly as she smiled and posed "like a movie star" for the camera, even with her no-make-up, severe haircut, dressed-down styling.  It took her a long time (in most people's opinion) to do so, but she has apologized continuously for the last 20-30 years (if not longer).   In the binary of the war, the Vietnamese were then (and still) fighting for their freedom, self-determination, and we were fighting to thwart that.  It was an error in judgment. Nuf. 

I had forgotten or never known that there were 500+ POWs.  They were clearly "bargaining chips" and (although many died) many survived their ordeal.  As with our prisoners at Gitmo (and Baghram and Abu Ghraib) I'm not sure what they information they were being tortured to reveal, or if anti-American videos the end-game.  Most individual soldiers have limited knowledge that would be "useful to the enemy" or still be "fresh intel" after 6 months or so.  This wasn't a high-tech war and there was a lot of changing of tactics and focus. An individual pilot might represent a massive loss in terms of $$ training and skill-set, but they never controlled or were necessarily privy to broader future plans.  We tortured at Abu Ghraib due to the (mistaken) belief that someone-who-knows-something would be present amongst the witnesses to truck bombings  and other acts of terrorism, however, in fact, the perpetrators were usually dead and there was no information to be prised from the innocent bystanders.  Apparently the fact that "torture doesn't work" doesn't stop people from practicing it... although it does matter quite a lot the nature of the objective... videos versus intelligence versus vigilante punishment. 

My memory is that the vietnamese torturer were a continuation in the American imagination of the Japanese torturers and continuation also of exotic-Asian-cruelty stereotyping left over from WWII.  I thought the episode where they talked about all of the racist and misapplied slang "hootches", "mamma-san" from other conflicts used regularly in vietnam really pulled its punches by leaving the subject "just lying there" without saying anything about its relevance.   Demonization of the enemy occurs in (virtually) all wall propaganda and continues today, even just yesterday wrt to the ISIS families fleeing lost territory who were stopped not allowed to progress (despite prior arrangements) until the stalemate was broken by cooler heads who reneged to allow them to proceed (as by prior arrangement) ... women and children being used a pawns,  declared a "threat"

I felt this last episode (9) was overcrowded and left too many punches pulled and too many sentences and thoughts unfinished.  Yes, it was compelling and being more recent, it touched on more commonly shared memories, but it felt like perusing a pile of old Life Magazines, great photographs, artfully arranged, but not "meaty" 

Edited September 28, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[SusanSunflower]

Oh, and aside from being Barbarella, as Henry Fonda's daughter, Jane Fonda was one of America's Princesses.  It's a bit hard to remember how important an actor Henry Fonda was, playing the decent everyman who was not John Wayne ... His era's Tom Hanks. While the usual chorus deplored "actors talking about politics", many were unsurprised and glad to see Fonda join the anti-war movement and then horrified by her trip to Hanoi.  

The over-reach and bad behavior of the anti-war movement has been I feel disproportionately highlighted throughout.  There was too much support FOR the war for anti-war sentiments to become mainstream or heard much in the media.  John and Yoko could say "give peace a chance" and Chronkite and others could "question" and "have doubts" about the war, but yeah, the Nixon White House had an enemies list and the plumbers and your taxes might get audited or you might find your phone tapped or utility vans parked outside your house.  Blacklisting hadn't really ended and retaliatory use of the FBI / IRS were recognized.   Wiki says Cointelpro began in 1956 so it was fairly "mature" .. I had no idea.  

Anyway, it was considered "brave" for Fonda at the height of her career (so far) to risk everything to protest the war.  Her statements while in Hanoi were callous and her behavior thoughtless.   And then she founded a fitness empire and later married Ted Turner, divorced Turner after 10 years largely "retired", found Jesus,  and more recently come back, etc. I've always found her considerably less interesting than I think she should be somehow.  For someone so privileged, talented, intelligent, socially concerned, and accomplished.  Regardless, I think it's wrong to let that trip to Hanoi define her.  As mentioned, others went to Hanoi and made statements.  No, I don't think the outrage was "all about sex fantasies" ... she was (and still is) denounced, her acts considered unforgivable.

fwiw, from her blog:  The Truth about my trip to north vietnam 

https://www.janefonda.com/the-truth-about-my-trip-to-hanoi/

Edited September 28, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Brattinella]

Why should we have to dig down deep into HER blog to find an "I'm Sorry"?  That should have been first-page news and on every night on TV.  She should have begged for forgiveness on All major networks!  PFFT!

[SusanSunflower]

She's been apologizing more or less for 30+ years ... her blog is not linked to "prove" she has apologized, but to answer that other question, "what the hell was she thinking?" 

[txhorns79]

Quote

She's been apologizing more or less for 30+ years ... her blog is not linked to "prove" she has apologized, but to answer that other question, "what the hell was she thinking?" 

Seriously.  After watching this series, there are a lot of people to truly be upset with, and Jane Fonda is very low on that list. 

[SusanSunflower]

It was indeed a shock to watch John Negroponte holding forth as a talking head throughout that episode, demonstrating just how "tolerant" of human rights abuses and general atrocities we have been for so very long.  Negroponte came to prominence in the next decade in Central America [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52001-2005Mar20.html] and then to renewed prominence in Iraq.   If you don't believe we tolerated, armed, aided, abetted and helped conceal the existence of death squads, etc., then nevermind.  [Confirmation of our cooperation with death squads in Iraq was a major finding in the Iraq Wikileaks]

[Omeletsmom]

On 9/25/2017 at 11:00 PM, magdalene said:

Tricky Dick in action tonight, committing treason to win the presidency...it just makes you want to cry.

This episode hit me like a brick wall for some reason.  Maybe it was the police beating Americans exercising their First Amendment rights in a city I have grown to love (my daughter lives in Chicago), or the the confirmation that the Nixon White House was even slimier than I had thought, or perhaps hearing from a man I remember from when my husband was on active duty in the USAF (Gen McPeak); it was all just too personal for me.  It's all been hard to watch, but this one left me shaking.

On 9/26/2017 at 6:51 AM, PodcastTown said:

Tunnel Warfare: I strangled a guy to death in the dark. If you turn the light on, you better be sure you're the only one there.  Jesus Lord, war is not to be taken lightly.  Episode 7 NO, NOT THE CAT!!! NOT THE CAT!!!! 

Vietnam war should've been the war to end all wars!! Brutal brutal stuff!!! 

OMG!  I forgot about the cat! A veneer of civilization indeed!

[Brattinella]

I see NO apology at all, not for thirty years.  Sorry, I was on the fence re: Jane Fonda before this episode.  Now I'm not. 

[LADreamr]

5 minutes ago, Omeletsmom said:

OMG!  I forgot about the cat! A veneer of civilization indeed!

That reminded me of one of John Musgrave's poems (the end of it).

[officetemp]

I think I may be more-or-less insane by saying this, but I'm kind of wishing that Burns and Novick & company had made an even longer film.  Maybe even up to six hours longer.  Both Episodes 8 and 9 felt somewhat rushed to me, in contrast to the more detailed documentation in the earlier episodes.  I would have liked to have had more interviews with the Vietnamese soldiers--both South and North--and some of the South Vietnamese leadership and the Viet Cong.  I know most of the people who were in power at the time (in the North and the South) are now dead, but I feel that discussing events during the "Vietnamization" process from the perspective of the Vietnamese, especially members of ARVN, would have been both informative and eye-opening.

I also wish that the film makers had interviewed some of the National Guard troops and/or law enforcement personnel who were there that day at Kent State.  What was going through their minds at the time?  How did they deal with what they had done after it happened?  What do they now think about their own actions on that day?

The Wall:  I've only visited it once, a few years after it was dedicated and I think prior to the installation of the accompanying sculptures (unnecessary, I thought, but installed to appease those who wanted a more traditional war memorial).  I think what makes The Wall so powerfully effective is that it doesn't try to mold the visitor's opinion, as other memorials do.  It's just a collection of names.  But it's a collection of names of those who died and that's what makes it personal.  Each individual who visits the wall knew somebody or several somebodies up there on the wall.  Small wonder that it's turned into a de facto shrine, with people leaving letters, medals, photos, flowers and other offerings along the length of its base.  I think I read a few years ago that the National Park Service is planning on opening a museum to house and display all those offerings that have been left at the wall since it was dedicated.

The main takeaway, so far, that I've gotten from this documentary is that the failure of leadership has devastating consequences.  From the presidents on down to whoever the genius was who decided it was fine to issue live ammunition to the NG and law enforcement at Kent State, there was such a massive lack of leadership, with politics determining policy.  In this film, it seemed as if the persons demonstrating leadership at its finest were the geology professor at Kent State who begged everyone to disperse in order to avoid further bloodshed, the helicopter pilot who shielded and saved those villagers whom he could at My Lai, the soldiers who led some to safety in the same place, and the platoon and squad leaders out in the field who never demanded anything of the men under their command what they themselves would not be willing to honorably do.

Emotionally drained, but looking forward to Episode 10.

Edited September 29, 2017 by officetemp
Clarification

[LADreamr]

I'll join you in your insanity then, @officetemp. I could definitely watch more of this.

[Cheezwiz]

I'll second that @officetemp! Hear, hear.

Would love to hear more about all of the the subjects you mentioned.  I was also curious about the folks who decided to go to Canada (or perhaps other countries). A couple of stories were featured, but they stopped as soon as they crossed the border. I would have liked to have heard just a bit more about how they managed once they got to the other side. How did it feel? How were they treated? How did they manage to make a living while they were waiting to get their immigrant stuff sorted out? How did their families react? Remember they didn't have crystal balls, and had no way of knowing Carter would give them amnesty in the late 70's. They may have thought they'd never see their hometowns or their families again (unless said families came to Canada to visit).

And yeah - Kent State: who WAS the genius who approved live ammo being given to young inexperienced National Guards?

[Omeletsmom]

1 hour ago, officetemp said:

The Wall:  I've only visited it once, a few years after it was dedicated and I think prior to the installation of the accompanying sculptures (unnecessary, I thought, but installed to appease those who wanted a more traditional war memorial).  I think what makes The Wall so powerfully effective is that it doesn't try to mold the visitor's opinion, as other memorials do.  It's just a collection of names.  But it's a collection of names of those who died and that's what makes it personal.  Each individual who visits the wall knew somebody or several somebodies up there on the wall.  Small wonder that it's turned into a de facto shrine, with people leaving letters, medals, photos, flowers and other offerings along the length of its base.  I think I read a few years ago that the National Park Service is planning on opening a museum to house and display all those offerings that have been left at the wall since it was dedicated.

I like that they show the name on the Wall as they talk about the death of each person we have come to know.  I am a very tactile person and I find the fact that the Wall is designed for us to touch, to trace out the names of loved ones, to interact with the memorial in an intimate way very powerful.  

[Bastet]

I finally had a chance to start in on this.  Seeing David H. Koch on the list of major sponsors certainly has me nervous, but I'm in.

I watched the first episode, and thought it was a nice introduction.  There is a lot of background to cover, and they could have had even more time for it had they not cut to '60s footage, but I think it was an effective technique - an "all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again" message delivered visually - and I think they gave a nice overview/outline of that background. 

I came away from it disheartened by the same things that got to me when I studied it in college (a long time ago, but a lot came back to me as I watched) -- how the U.S. government got it so fundamentally wrong, and how many opportunities there were for things to have played out so very differently had they got it right (and not been quite so damn hysterical about Communism).

I'm looking forward to digging into more details with subsequent episodes, and hope to be able to watch a couple of them tomorrow night. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Bastet

[JudyObscure]

16 hours ago, kassygreene said:

Agnew was the Governor of Maryland before he was nominated VP - old white southerner being corrected / talked back to / not properly respected by a calmly, rationally, articulate college student who was also (probably) the wrong party, definitely black, and (probably) even worse, female.  Such people were not supposed to meet the southern white male with a presumption of equality.

I barely knew anything about Agnew myself until he was forced to resign, and I seem to remember that no one thought he was worth a damn.  One of those running mates selected to deliver a region, in his case the South.

I agree with all you say about Agnew, except he isn't a southerner and Maryland isn't the South. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I agree with all you say about Agnew, except he isn't a southerner and Maryland isn't the South. 

Maryland is not the South, but it was very segregated at the time.  Agnew made his reputation for his response to the riots after MLK's assassination, particularly when he lectured the black leadership in the state for failing to control the more radical elements among them. 

I loved Eva Jefferson's conversation with Agnew.  I also loved it when she said her parents were horrified when she called them to let them know she and her friends had taken over the school building at Northwestern.  That just made me smile.     

[Spartan Girl]

"How did we let this gang take over the White House?"

We're asking ourselves the exact same question.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Seeing David H. Koch on the list of major sponsors certainly has me nervous

Yes, everytime I've heard the Koch name in the credits I wonder about what his/their influence was.

[Spartan Girl]

The footage of the fall of Saigon sickened me. All those innocent civilians left helpless, the final betrayal in a war that screwed them over.

I know lots of people hate the musical Miss Saigon, but it's hard not to think of the chorus "They'll kill who they find here/Don't leave us behind here!" while watching this.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Yes, every time I've heard the Koch name in the credits I wonder about what his/their influence was.

He donates a lot of money to the arts and things like this.  I could be wrong, but I can't imagine Ken Burns taking notes or changing his documentary to suit donors. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Weeping like a baby during parts of this last episode ... and the Vietnam war was before I was even born!   But whenever any of the vets (American or Vietnamese) started tearing up, I kinda lost it.    

And the stories of the Vietnamese who thought they were going to get airlifted out -- and then got left behind!   And the Vietnamese soldier who feels guilty every day because he can't find bodies of fallen soldiers.  Oh my God.  So sad.  

Next time in D.C., I am going to have to make a point of going to the Memorial.  

[Brattinella]

I cried like a baby, hubby did too.  Such a tragic time.  So many lives lost and abandoned.

[GHScorpiosRule]

My God, this series is so gripping. Just finished episode two and am now watching episode three.

Everyone-the Vets, Scanlon and Musgrave in particular, just broke my heart. And it was so bittersweet to see my idol, Walter Cronkite.

In light of the article I posted up thread, I'm surprised that President Kennedy admitted to Cronkite that it wasn't possible to withdraw from Vietnam when in fact it seems he actually did have a plan to withdraw by 1965.

I'm just gobsmacked at the evil, megalomaniacs that were Diem, Nhu and his narcissistic wife. I forced myself to watch those Buddhist monks immolate themselves. I'm just grateful they were still pictures and not the actual event filmed.

And the incarceration of all those children! I hope to God they weren't tortured or beaten.

I do wonder if that one Viet Cong member is actually smiling (which comes across as a shit eating grin to me) or if that's just how is mouth looks.

And it's so sad that Musgrave said how his generation was the last one to believe in our government and how they all thought it would NEVER lie to them. Only to be betrayed and learn how that trust was misplaced.

Okay, gotta concentrate on this.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

He donates a lot of money to the arts and things like this.  I could be wrong, but I can't imagine Ken Burns taking notes or changing his documentary to suit donors. 

I'm pretty confident in Burns and Novick's integrity, and Koch has helped fund other programs that haven't wound up with his stink on them, but he and his brother control this country in so many ways, his name always gives me pause.  Especially on a documentary about a subject as politically contentious as this one.  I just have to come back to Burns' and Novick's track record.

[friendperidot]

As the end of the program came, I started wondering, among so much else, what music was going to be used for the ending. Let It Be was perfect.

Another night of sobbing for me. I will have to watch again, but I've got to have some time to absorb and process. Good job.

Editing because there was one Vietnamese man, he had the most incredible silver hair. I know that has little to do with anything else. But when he was on screen, I had trouble looking at anything but his hair. I think I caught part of his name, Bao.

Edited September 29, 2017 by friendperidot

[Cheezwiz]

I cried too. And I'm not even old enough to remember anything about the Vietnam War - it ended when I was five! Perfect concluding song for this series.

3 hours ago, friendperidot said:

Editing because there was one Vietnamese man, he had the most incredible silver hair. I know that has little to do with anything else. But when he was on screen, I had trouble looking at anything but his hair. I think I caught part of his name, Bao.

Yes, I didn't catch his full name either, but I believe he is a noted author in Vietnam. I thought he had a very charismatic presence on camera.

The footage of all of those names on the Wall was incredibly moving. Seeing the veterans & family members recall their first visits was just so emotional - to be able to run their fingers along the names of lost comrades or loved ones must be very cathartic.

For those interested in more detail on the evacuation efforts in Saigon, I recommend the documentary Last Days in Vietnam. It goes into more detail about what was happening in the U.S. Embassy as the North Vietnamese approached the city. The U.S. Ambassador was truly out to lunch, and ordinary people simply took matters into their own hands and tried to rescue as many Vietnamese as they could.

It was nice to see that veterans from both Vietnam & the U.S. have found some measure of healing by collaborating on projects together. It was touching to see them regard each other not as former enemies, but simply as fellow veterans and survivors.

I wish I had a time machine to see what Vietnam looked like before decades of French and U.S. bombardment. It truly looks like an incredibly beautiful place despite its painful history. If I ever travel to Asia, it's number #1 on my list of countries to visit.

I'm sure we'll all be posting more as we process things, but just wanted to thank you all for your thoughtful posts. Your commentary has really enriched my viewing experience!

Edited September 29, 2017 by Cheezwiz

[monakane]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:17 AM, Sandman87 said:

And going on radio there to encourage the North Vietnamese to keep fighting us, don't forget. Yeah Jane, tell us again in a self-serving article about how concerned you were for our poor boys in uniform.

I like Jane Fonda as an actress and always gave her a pass for her anti-war activities.  I saw her as a product of her times.  I never realized, until I saw this documentary, how disturbing her comments were.  It made me do a 180 on my opinion of her.  I don't know if I can stand to watch her anymore.  I get why the Viet Nam vets harbor bad feelings about her to this day.

On 9/28/2017 at 9:15 PM, Brattinella said:

I cried like a baby, hubby did too.  Such a tragic time.  So many lives lost and abandoned.

The story of the North Vietnamese woman who lost her eight brothers and two sons was heartbreaking.  I don't know how people go on after suffering those kinds of losses.

[Straycat80]

This was the best documentary about the Vietnam War. I never knew much about it since the war was over when I was in grade school. It was very informative and it broke my heart. I also cried, especially at the end of episode ten. 

Every main event over the years of the war was covered very well. One thing I would have liked to know more about was what happened to the Vietnamese orphans who were fathered by U.S. Servicemen. And the orphans who were sent to the U.S. To be adopted. And does anyone remember the airplane that crashed during the Orphan airlift? I do remember seeing pictures of that in (I think) Life Magazine at the time. 

[friendperidot]

Those children crossed my mind too especially during the scenes with the veterans returning to Vietnam and talking to the children in the streets.

One of my guilty pleasures is staying up to the wee hours of Sunday morning and watching 21 Jump Street on H&I. Several times during episode 10, I thought of the way that 21 Jump Street told Harry and Dustin's story.

[rcc]

My memory of that wall is that my husband and I went to see the traveling wall years back. He saw a name of someone who started a fight with another soldier while playing pool and my husband held him back before he cracked the pool stick over the other guy's head. He was shipped out for fighting and ended up in another battalion. His name was on the wall and my husband, who never talked much about Vietnam, said maybe if he hadn't started the fight and shipped somewhere else he might have gone home too.

This series has been hard for me to watch and I hadn't met my husband until he was home for six months. He never really talked about it except with other Vietnam vets. One time I remember when the song "God Bless the USA" that was constantly played years ago I said that was for the Vietnam vets. He said "nobody cares about the Vietnam vets." That was their reality. Some couldn't adjust, my husband did, but there was some residual damage however small or large to every one of them.

 

s 

[shapeshifter]

Richard Pyle, AP reporter of Vietnam War and much more, dies

[MichelleAK]

This was a very well-done series. I cried at various times (especially the final episode, at the Wall). The interviewees were extremely forthcoming, and it was nice to have voices from all sides.

Like others above, I actually wish it was a little bit longer. I wish they had had more time to spend on Vietnam after the fall of Saigon. I also wish they had had a segment on the various reporters and photojournalists who followed the soldiers into combat. Aside from a couple of the most famous photographs and their photographers, there wasn't really any mention of anyone else. A little time spent on Michael Herr, Tim Page, or Sean Flynn and Dana Stone (who both disappeared into Cambodia) would have been nice.

However, those are minor quibbles of an otherwise excellent project.

[SusanSunflower]

Unless I missed it, I also expected some coverage of the war in the media ... the Smothers Brothers, the movie and then series MASH, as well as All in the Family and other sitcoms (as others have mentioned wrt to Gerald McRainey who was one of self-proclaimed rare Hollywood conservative (they're not rare, most just aren't actors -- see The Smothers Brothers).  I don't recall Pat Paulson's run for president, even the Yuppies (much less the Trial of the Chicago 7 ... or the decimation of the Black Panthers and Cointelpro).  There was so much more abuse of power (and more lies) than simply Watergate ... and the legacy of J. Edgar Hoover ... Yes, Laugh In and Goldie Hawn ...  there was a lot of uneasy circling ... 

The intersection of "the war" and the counterculture might have been interesting but only in a 50 years later appraisal.  In fact, much of the 1960's counterculture was aborbed into the 1980's "Me-Generation" and Yuppies (or at least thats how the media presented it). 

[SusanSunflower]

I also may have missed, but I don't think so, the lingering taint of so many poorly readjusting veterans who where I lived (Santa Monica) encamped on the beach and in the parks in large numbers (there being a very large VA hospital in West Los Angeles).  The ugliness of these veterans having to battle to get the medical and psychiatric care they needed was second only quickly to deplorable conditions in some hospitals and then quickly the refusal to acknowledge the lingering effects of Agent Orange (and ugliness repeated with the veterans of the first gulf war who were similarly suggested to be malingerers and/or preexisting psychiatric issues.  

The end of the draft and the "all volunteer army" I have read was instigated by officers (and up) who didn't want to ever again deal with conscripts (did we ever hear from them).  The disproportionate number of African-American and other POC in the grunt / conscript squads also became conspicuous.   Someone elsewhere wondered if McNamara's Project 100,000, the enlistment of same number of previously ineligible low-IQ or medically compromised conscripts would be mentioned ... did I miss that?

My point(s) are mostly that there were a lot of lingering bad feelings, many having nothing to do with the anti-war movement or even the counterculture, that many veterans were eager to join (another reason for conservatives to malign them).  As I mentioned last week, my local VFW refuse admission to Vietnam vets on the pretext that it wasn't a "foreign war" but a police action.  Basically they didn't want to open their veterans' clubhouse to the next generation who -- afterall - in their eyes had been responsible for the first war America had ever (fairly unequivocally) lost.  They had damaged the brand. 

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

 As I mentioned last week, my local VFW refuse admission to Vietnam vets on the pretext that it wasn't a "foreign war" but a police action

Unbelievable.  Rejected even by their fellow military members.  My husband is not eligible for the VFW although he served 22 years and was loading bombs for the Air Force in Thailand and Korea during the Vietnam War.  That's considered the "theater of operations," only.  However he plays taps for the VFW's local honor guard at all the military funerals.  The WWII veterans are almost all gone now, with most of the funerals being men who fought in Korea or Vietnam. The honor guard itself is getting so old they can barely stand at attention long enough to do the rifle salute and fold the flag.  Many local VFWs will probably be closing down in a few years as these old soldiers pass away. Any VFWs who have refused admission to Vietnam vets are going to feel the effects of their snobbery even sooner.

[PodcastTown]

I wish there were 10 more episodes of this. This content is so rich. 1975, Khmer Rouge took over and seized Cambodia under the communist rule of Pol Pot. Ken Burns and Lynn Novick could knock out 10 episodes of content easy.  Those last 2 weeks were some of the best piece of television that I've ever seen, period!!! Now I have to wait till next year for another Ken Burns document, country music? The anticipation is killing me,hahhaah! 

And I'm not the biggest fan of Country Music but it's Ken Burns!!! He's the master of this!!

[shapeshifter]

Will cut footage be released in some manner?

I haven't seen all of the episodes. Was there no mention of the children of US soldiers and Vietnamese women?

[PodcastTown]

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Will cut footage be released in some manner?

I haven't seen all of the episodes. Was there no mention of the children of US soldiers and Vietnamese women?

 

  I think so? Maybe in the later episodes? I might have to watch it again. Shit load of content to get through for sure.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I’ve been crying since since episode four and being full of disgust and anger at Johnson and his administration, but Especially at Westmoreland. And all the politicians who despite being told we were losing, there were more U.S. casualties than the North Viet Cong, he trebled the number of their losses, and insisted our boys want to be there and were telling him they were winning.???

I was wondering if they would show John McCain, since no one here mentioned him, but seeing him break down in that “interview?” I lost it. And now we know exactly why his arms are the way they are (they can’t completely go straight and relaxed and he can’t raise them above his head-I’ve met him and seen him)-they weren’t set properly AND they only gave him aspirin!

I can’t keep all the names straight so I’m going to write down the names, but I thought it was GENIUS of the one POW to use MORSE code with his eyes to convey he, Alvarez and others were being tortured.

And I’m not giving any slack or understanding to McNamara for “having an epiphany” that the “war” he advanced and rooted for was a mistake and that he kept his trap shut for 23 years after he was fired. Would the boys have come home sooner had he come clean?

There was one man-Ball-who was Under Secretary to McNamara, who told Johnson this was unwinnable and to pull out, but neither he or anyone else in that room listened to him, but doubled down and kept bombing and sending more and more troops.

The music they’re using, by the Stones “Paint it Black” is especially haunting as I always associate it with the Vietnam War, as well as the Byrds’ “Turn, Turn, Turn.” Practically every show or movie that has depicted this war uses those songs.

And Musgrave, Harris (the only Black Vet I’ve seen so far), Harrison, and that one Vet from the first episode-Karl Marlantes (I know that’s wrong-he’s the one that said the soldiers going to Vietnam was like finishing school) have been excellent. I couldn’t believe how three, THREE people, one a surgeon, dismissed him and his hole in his chest as a fait accompli, and assumed he wasn’t going to make it, so didn’t even bother to try to help him. Thank God for the one surgeon that did.

Just started episode six.

Edited October 1, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[PodcastTown]

That is a wonderful take @GHScorpiosRule... Please continue the posting. Keep the discussion going. 

[walnutqueen]

This is by far the best documentary series I've ever watched.

Now that it is over, I want to watch it from beginning to end again, but so far, my DVR is only picking up the first 7 episodes of the re-run.  I will force myself to wait until I have all 10 recorded, and then marathon the hell out of them.

I hope everyone pays attention to our current "sacrifices", and today's veterans whose suffering and loss goes largely unmentioned.  I stand firmly against child abuse, and stand just as firmly against taking our youth and turning them into someone we can barely recognize when they return from the "battlefield".  When will we ever learn?

There were so many Vietnam War era songs; one of mine is "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?".  I could listen to just the music from this series for the rest of my sorry life, and be satisfied.

[LADreamr]

I think the PBS site still has the whole series to stream, and it's uncensored.

[Bastet]

I just watched episodes two and three, and it doesn't become any less astounding to me with repetition that both Kennedy and Johnson knew this was one giant mess - they both acknowledged privately that our military plans were for shit and we weren't going to get out with anything resembling a victory, but they feared the political toll (in terms of American voters, and international action) if they retreated from Communists, so they just kept doubling down.  At a horrifying cost.

The dichotomy between the positive impact of Johnson's domestic programs and the negative effect of his foreign policy - both of which continue to this day - is staggering.  Maybe if he hadn't come into the presidency so insecure in his understanding of/abilities in foreign affairs (not to mention the circumstances under which he took office), he wouldn't have just retained Kennedy's advisors, and a thoughtfully-selected team could have gotten through to him.  When he was VP, and thus just another advisor weighing in, he opposed the coup overthrowing the Diem government, since as awful as he was, there wasn't anyone to replace him.  He knew that was going to make a bad situation worse, and thus advised against it. 

But once he was the one taking advice and making the final call, he resented the hell out of the fact the Vietnam mess was taking time away from the more important things he wanted to do here at home, and just wanted someone to give him a (mythical) strategy that would kill enough of the Viet Cong that they'd give up.  And then, of course, he was being challenged by Barry Goldwater, whose entire campaign was about how weak Johnson was against those damn commies.  The Tonkin Gulf Resolution gave him an overnight 30 percent bump in his favorability rating.  And then as time went on, Johnson and Westmoreland just went fucking nuts.

Excellent job in part three of juxtaposing footage of the U.S. military napalming the shit out of the country with Johnson's address about how we come in peace.  Ugh, all the lies.  Like the one Marine interviewed said, it was one thing back when Eisenhower and Kennedy were trying to figure things out, and made some bad decisions out of noble hearts, but by this point, Johnson and his gang knew unequivocally that the war was unwinnable yet kept throwing more and more bodies at it - and then lied to the servicemen and the American people at large about it - and that was disgusting.

I knew exactly how it was going to unfold, but it still disgusted me to to hear about the entire battalion of South Vietnamese being sent into certain ambush to retrieve the bodies of four dead Americans, costing twelve of them their lives, and when the U.S. helicopter arrived, they took the four American bodies and left the twelve South Vietnamese bodies behind.

Not to mention looking at that memo listing U.S. aims - 70% to avoid a humiliating US defeat, 20% to keep the territory from falling into China's hands, and 10% to help the people of South Vietnam.

I've always wondered how things would have played out if the U.S. government had dealt with Ho Chi Minh back when he first started reaching out.  Because so much changed over the years, in terms of his degree of power, the competing influence on Hanoi of the Soviet Union and China, the North Vietnamese leaders' favored tactics, etc., and we wound up with Le Duang instead.

Whoever it was in part two who said America thought history doesn't apply to us was spot on, and that attitude hasn't diminished much.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Bastet

[magdalene]

On 9/21/2017 at 2:57 PM, magdalene said:

It struck me that there was a moment when - before this whole debacle began - Ho Chi Minh was asking for American help (he had quite admired American democracy).  If only somebody had had the foresight to get him on our side. Instead America got into bed with all these unspeakable South Vietnamese dictators.

Quote

ve always wondered how things would have played out if the U.S. government had dealt with Ho Chi Minh back when he first started reaching out.  Because so much changed over the years, in terms of his degree of power, the competing influence on Hanoi of the Soviet Union and China, the North Vietnamese leaders' favored tactics, etc., and we wound up with Le Duang instead

I asked myself that on the first page of this thread, Bastet.   I had always had the impression that there was a kindness in Ho Chi Minh, unlike Le Duan. If only somebody on the American side had looked beyond the COMMUNIST label.

It was a relief to see that at the very end of the series we got a glimpse of the modern Vietnam as a functioning and beautiful country.  And that some veterans have gone back over the years and managed to find some peace and to connect with the Vietnamese people.

I wish the likes of Nixon could see that  Vietnam has become a place where people go on VACATION  and have a great time.  On its own terms and  on friendly terms with the US.   Slime like him tried to destroy Vietnam. Instead his paranoia and ambition destroyed him.  I am feeling Schadenfreude.

Edited October 1, 2017 by magdalene

[Bastet]

4 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I asked myself that on the first page of this thread, Bastet.   I had always had the impression that there was a kindness in Ho Chi Minh, unlike Le Duang. If only somebody on the American side had looked beyond the COMMUNIST label.

Indeed you did; sorry about that - by the time I got around to watching, I had forgotten some of what I'd read back when it first aired.  And, yes, if we hadn't viewed communists as a monolith, things would have been different.  Ho Chi Minh started out (and somewhat remained) far more about his country's independence, not international communism. 

Part four was particularly good - and brutal.

Oh my gods, it should not take until 1966 for President Johnson to learn Le Duan's name (not to mention his role, his degree of power, and what his policies and tactics are)!  It's one thing for the American public to know fuck all about Vietnam, but for the guy deciding to go over there and engage in war to not even know the major players, let alone the basic culture ... ugh.  He was trying to prop up a government in Saigon, hoping for leader that would earn the loyalty of the people, but how was that ever going to happen when it was just a revolving door of crazy generals who were strangers in their own country -- people who've spent generations under colonial rule aren't going to embrace a puppet.  Our major international allies said over and over, no, we're not sending any of our troops; you want help with peace talks, we are there for you, but hell no we're not joining in this disaster of a war.  Despite media coverage that was still heavily slanted, and majority public support for the war, increasing numbers of Americans were taking to the streets in protest against it.  Kennan's testimony before Congress laid out clearly how misguided our presence and tactics in Vietnam were.  Yet LBJ plowed ahead with a war of attrition.

It's quite telling to show all these white men talking about how they enlisted because they'd been raised in military families, they wanted to be a hero, they wanted to fight communism, etc, and then the black man say he was hoping a football scholarship would be his ticket out of a gang-ridden neighborhood, but when that didn't pan out he saw the military as a way he could pay for college - and if he died, at least his momma would get a financial benefit.  And for that one man to say he grew up in segregated towns, so until boot camp he had never met a black, Latino, or Jewish guy, but when they got to talking he realized they were all fundamentally the same - working class and poor.

Three million people - one-fifth the population - made homeless by "seek and destroy" bombings in 1966 alone.  Three million tons of explosives dropped on just the Laos portion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail - a million more than on Germany and Japan during all of WWII.  Thirty thousand draftees called up each month.  The numbers are mind boggling.  Speaking of numbers, someone said perfectly of the whole metrics thing:  "If you can't count what's important, you make what you can count important."  Thus, the obsession with the enemy body count.  And, as one journalist said, the possibility of turning otherwise honorable soldiers into liars, and worse - if the enemy body count is the measure of success, then you use indiscriminate tactics/firepower and count every Vietnamese body as an enemy.

I got a laugh of sorts out of hearing the Marine call the anti-war protestors spoiled kids when seconds before we'd been shown footage of protestors carrying signs like "No Vietnamese ever called me [n-word]," "Big firms get rich/GI's die," and "Black People: 53% of the dead, 2% of the bread."  And I take exception to classifying the anti-war movement as shifting from a moral one to a self-interested one when the military started drafting middle class kids, that it was driven by kids who didn't want to go.  Is the fact it was both - people didn't want to go because they didn't want to be killed AND they didn't want anyone to go because they thought it was an unjust war in which atrocities were being committed - really that difficult a concept to grasp? 

Claiming protestors were organized and planted from the outside, attacking their patriotism, breaking the law to spy on them, inciting violence to make them look bad -- sound familiar?

I doubt there's any way to ever have an honest accounting of how many American soldiers were like the guys who happily set fire to villagers' houses and destroyed their food supplies (and far worse) and responded when asked, "Why would I feel pity for them?" because they saw all Vietnamese as the same - the other, even if they didn't specifically classify civilians as the enemy - and how many were like the guys who were very uneasy with those orders and sometimes even defied them.  What's clear is that people on both sides did horrible things, were asked to do horrible things, saw horrible things, and were permanently affected in profound ways.  Such loss and devastation all around.  I can't even begin to imagine how scared and demoralized those guys became, but the changing tone of Mogie's letters was an effective way of telling that story. 

The efficiency of the North Vietnamese was pretty incredible (and obviously not something for which we were prepared) -- constructing enough underground shelters to house pretty much everyone?  A million people working around the clock to undo the bombing damage?  Putting up pontoon bridges overnight to replace bombed out bridges and keep supplies/traffic moving?  They were seriously underestimated.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The music they’re using, by the Stones “Paint it Black” is especially haunting as I always associate it with the Vietnam War, as well as the Byrds’ “Turn, Turn, Turn.” Practically every show or movie that has depicted this war uses those songs.

I really do think  there needs to be some kind of rule against using Buffalo Springfield's "For What It's Worth" in any kind of 60s related movie, tv series or documentary.  It's just been over used. 

Also, in a shallow aside, I was amazed at how big Valerie Kushner's hair appeared.  It was particularly huge in the scene where she and her kids were listening to the POW tape.  And I know that's just the time period, but I was really taken aback by it's sheer size. 

I was also very touched listening to the veterans talk about what the Wall meant to them.  It's such a simple design, but really so moving.           

[SusanSunflower]

A lot of the musical choices (from the very first episode) took me "out of the story" because they were at odds with the timeline, and/or had no connection to Vietnam.  Let It Be was released in 1970.  I don't know any "greater significance" to the song beyond Paul McCartney's happy marriage to Linda.  Paul has never been particularly "deep" or socially conscious (and has been rather notoriously nitpicky/resentful) ... I always took this song as aspirational to his own life and likely the breakup to the Beatles ...  and have always thought it was deeply personal and not generic or "universal" or deep.  IMHO, Paul is at his best taken at face value ... I didn't like the series closing on that song for those reasons -- it was released 1970 when the war ended years later; it suggested some perhaps aspirational spiritual reconciliation that both the war and Paul's future belie. 

Having nothing to do with Vietnam or my own interpretation, here's what Paul had to say:

https://mattandjojang.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/the-story-behind-paul-mccartneys-song-let-it-be/

We project onto things we like whatever story and congruence we want to believe in ... 

from John Wayne/Liberty Valance:   When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.  

I' think that Burns & Company did more of that than I would have preferred.  Ymmv. 

ETA:  in 1970-71,  I thought with the release of his solo album, that Paul McCartney with his non-matieralist, happy marriage had "won the lottery" ... I thought the song strangely religious (I'm not) and "simple" even saccharine, but I too "love it"  in the sense of remembering what it meant THEN ... to me, that Paul was safe and happy in domestic bliss -- and that made me happy. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Bastet]

I'm not sure whether I'm looking forward to or dreading the episode that covers "Hanoi Jane," because people still being fired up about Jane Fonda, especially when they don't show anywhere near the same degree of enmity for the, I don't know, thousands of people who committed far worse acts without ever taking responsibility for them, baffle me.  But while reading an article on a completely different subject, I saw a link to this article from IndieWire:
 

Quote

 

As with John McCain and John Kerry, “The Vietnam War” filmmakers did not interview Fonda for the series. In an interview with IndieWire, Novick said, “These are public figures who have had their say many times. And we didn’t feel we needed to give them another platform to burnish their reputations in whatever way they want. And also, these are extremely polarizing figures, and we were really trying to tell the story in a way that an audience could come to it with an open mind, and not feel that we were favoring one particular perspective or another. And so it seemed like it wasn’t up to us to give any of those people the platform to tell their story yet again. They’ve told it many, many times.”

[snippet of Fonda's post on her website that has been previously linked to in this thread]

Despite this public apology and more than 40 years having passed since the incident, Fonda’s name still evokes feelings of absolute hatred and disgust for many. The depth of loathing is actually perplexing to comprehend.

“It does surprise me,” said Novick. “I thought she was just representative of radical politics, but there are so many other people who could have been — Joan Baez was in North Vietnam. Lots of people went to Hanoi, lots of antiwar activists said things that were very provocative.

“I think it’s also the power of images, just having herself photographed on an anti-aircraft gun that was shooting down American planes — even though those planes were bombing North Vietnam and inflicting collateral damage like we said on innocent people,” she continued. “But the pilots weren’t the ones makes the decisions about what our policy should be. They were the ones also paying the price, so like everything else in this story, it’s extremely, extremely complicated.”

The documentarians did not lack for subjects who were willing to discuss the actress, but they focused on veteran John Musgrave for his insights into the subject.

Novick said, “Everyone we spoke to was happy to say something about Jane Fonda, and we did have a variety of perspectives, but we thought he was able to explain the anger, and also in his mind, the origins… of the betrayal that people felt because they had idolized and fantasized about her.

“There’s something deeper going on there for sure. She seems to be the kind of focal point of all of this, and I guess that’s the price you pay for being a celebrity,” she added. “I think it’s the incongruity of ‘she’s not a foreign policy expert, she’s not connected, she’s a beautiful woman, she’s a great actress, and she used that celebrity platform to speak about things that maybe are better left to others.’”

Although the detractors have been the most vocal, Fonda isn’t universally despised for her actions.

“Not all vets hate her,” acknowledged Novick. “A number of vets who were involved in Vietnam but are against the war think she was courageous for going to Hanoi and taking a stand even though they didn’t agree with everything she had to say. So it’s not monolithic, but people react to her very strongly.”