S04.E09: Finale

[Hcw0227]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

The trouble with what Raven did was, she just wouldn't let it go. It was clearly not the right time to reason with Kristina as she wasn't going to hear it. Raven should have just dropped it but she kept pushing it. Why? Who cares if Kristina blames DLo in that moment. Tomorrow she might cool down enough to listen to reason. But Raven was too drunk and too full of her own importance and had to keep pushing it as if it was her purpose in life to make Kristina feel even worse than she did. Let the girl get it out of her system, then explain to her that maybe her anger is misdirected. Kristina was spot on with one thing. They needed to have that conversation sober. Nothing ever gets accomplished during drunken rants.

Raven wasn't mean or nasty, just not a good friend in that moment. The next day was a better time to have that talk but Raven had already blown it by then. There was no way Kristina was going to listen to her after that mess. 

I doubt the (ill-advised) timing of Raven's lecture had anything to do with Kristina's stubbornness in laying blame on Danielle. She was still doing it weeks later at the finale. 

[yorklee2]

1 hour ago, Palomar said:

Maybe Ben Z and Chase were only there for exposure in case Arie or Peter didn't work out for The Bachelor.

Chase? I think you have him confused with someone else. Chase was on JoJo's season and wasn't on BIP.

[RHJunkie]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

But why would she need to defend her position? I just don't understand why she couldn't see Kristina was hurting and give her support. Then again, Kristina was right. They aren't friends so I guess Raven felt it was fine to keep hounding Kristina with logic when Kristina was in no fit state to be logical. It was just selfish on Raven's part to feel the need to defend her position in something that had nothing at all to do with her to someone who was clearly hurting. She could easily have just let Kristina rant and get it out of her system or simply said she doesn't agree and walk away. Instead she argued with an irrational person.

People in this day and age cannot seem to just walk away. The internet has made us all feel like we need to share everything that is in our head at all times when sometimes it's best to just let it go.

 I'm just glad this season is over because I really only ended up liking Jack Stone and Ben Z. Even people I liked going in, Kristina, Daniel, Wells, went downhill fast. Oh, I still like Danielle M (the one who was smart enough to leave and do something useful with her time). I don't think anyone really comes out of this shit show looking good, unless they leave quickly.

There's two things to this -

1. A friend is someone who is willing to be honest with you, who may disagree with you but still support you in your decisions by allowing you to make those decisions for yourself without judgement and being a comforting ear when things blow up in your face just like they predicted it would. Raven telling Kristina the hard truth doesn't make her a bad friend. Raven calling out Kristina's irrational behaviour doesn't make her a bad friend. If Kristina feels that her issues with Dean should give her a pass to act how she wants and treat people how she wants, especially someone who she thinks is supposed to be her friend, then contrary to what she thinks, SHE is the bad friend, not Raven. Kristina brought Raven into the situation expecting that Raven would lie to her and tell her what a bitch Danielle is for stealing her fake boyfriend from her. Raven had every right to make clear that she didn't agree with Kristina placing blame on Danielle for Dean's decision and for how Dean was treating Kristina.

2. Irrational/bad behaviour should be called out because people should never feel like that kind of behaviour is okay. I totally get Raven's stance - she made sure she was clear and said what she had to say and because she knew Kristina was being irrational, she walked away once her point was made. It wasn't important that Kristina knew, not that Kristina agreed with her.

And it turns out that Kristina's irrational behaviour wasn't an 'in the moment' thing. She still blamed Danielle even after the fact. If Kristina can't handle the way reality TV dating works, she should have kept her ass at home and worked on her Tinder profile instead.

[Mabinogia]

I still want Ben Z for bachelor, with Zeus. They can set it up so all the women have dogs too. It can be the Dogchelor! Honestly, at this point I think I'd rather watch the dogs go on dates than the people. At least the dogs would eat all that wonderful food. lol

[Palomar]

38 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

Chase? I think you have him confused with someone else. Chase was on JoJo's season and wasn't on BIP.

HaHa.....I actually meant Wells.  Although, Chase might even be a better option. :)

[ByTor]

22 minutes ago, Palomar said:

1 hour ago, yorklee2 said:

Chase? I think you have him confused with someone else. Chase was on JoJo's season and wasn't on BIP.

HaHa.....I actually meant Wells.  Although, Chase might even be a better option. :)

LOL I assumed you meant Dean.

[call me ishmael]

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

Raven's position was basically "don't take it out on the other woman," while Wells pretty much said "sorry, girl, Dean doesn't want you," yet Raven is somehow mean.

On the other hand, look at the difference in Christina's reaction.  Maybe because when Wells asked that question he was clearly trying to help her get out of the situation with some self-respect and wasn't criticizing.  Raven on the other hand was being judgmental and patronizing.  She sort of reminded me of....Raven.

[Mabinogia]

14 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

On the other hand, look at the difference in Christina's reaction.

I'd say look at Kristina's state of mind when each person said what they did. She was emotional and not ready to hear hard truths when Raven insisted she listen to reason while she was pretty calm when Wells calmly dropped his thought provoking truth bomb. He didn't say "you're wrong for chasing Dean" he asked her a question. Raven did really say "why do you think this is Dlo's fault?" She told Kristina she was wrong. It's a maturity thing. Wells, for all his idiot puppetry (why, WHY did he think that was a good idea?) is still far more mature than most of these morons, especially Raven who thinks it's hilarious she assaulted a man. I really wouldn't take any advice from her. 

[yorklee2]

59 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

On the other hand, look at the difference in Christina's reaction.  Maybe because when Wells asked that question he was clearly trying to help her get out of the situation with some self-respect and wasn't criticizing.  Raven on the other hand was being judgmental and patronizing.  She sort of reminded me of....Raven.

 

42 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I'd say look at Kristina's state of mind when each person said what they did. She was emotional and not ready to hear hard truths when Raven insisted she listen to reason while she was pretty calm when Wells calmly dropped his thought provoking truth bomb. He didn't say "you're wrong for chasing Dean" he asked her a question. Raven did really say "why do you think this is Dlo's fault?" She told Kristina she was wrong. It's a maturity thing. Wells, for all his idiot puppetry (why, WHY did he think that was a good idea?) is still far more mature than most of these morons, especially Raven who thinks it's hilarious she assaulted a man. I really wouldn't take any advice from her. 

Kristina asked Raven to come sit with her because she had a question about something DLo or Dean was supposed to have said or did. I'm sure since Kristina opened and invited the conversation that Raven (yes as a friend) felt free and open to discuss the issue with Kristina. When the scene opened Kristina was already on the defensive as she said, speaking about DLo, "I don't believe for one minute she's innocent". So we don't even know what was said before hand. I suspect the conversation started out civil and as Kristina saw that Raven didn't agree with her she's the one who escalated the situation because as we saw she was already getting hot when the scene first opened. And Raven never told Kristina she was wrong for chasing Dean or even implied it. All she was trying to say was Kristina shouldn't put all the blame on DLo when Dean was the one who did her wrong and kept the situation going by lying to both of them.

I've found that women will always listen when a man tells them these things as opposed to another woman (here she went again blaming the woman) so I don't see a big difference in what Adam and Raven said.

Raven has never claimed to be perfect and we all make mistakes. So if we've all made mistakes that means we're not qualified to give advice? There sure wouldn't be any more advising going on. I really don't understand the Raven hate.

Edited September 15, 2017 by yorklee2

[Mabinogia]

9 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

Raven has never claimed to be perfect and we all make mistakes. So if we've all made mistakes that means we're not qualified to give advice? There sure wouldn't be any more advising going on. I really don't understand the Raven hate.

It's not that she made a mistake in the heat of the moment, it's that she's proud enough of it to go telling everyone on national TV that she thinks violence is a good answer to your problems. For that, for thinking that attacking a man is a funny story, I would not turn to her for advice. 
 

Yes, Kristina escalated things, yes Kristina was overly emotional and just looking for someone to validate her. I don't think she was in the right. I just don't think Raven needed to point it out in that moment. It was a total waste of time because the person she was...what, was she trying to help Kristina? was not going to hear it. So from my POV it was just Raven liking to hear herself talk and thinking she knows everything. 

[call me ishmael]

5 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Yes, Kristina escalated things, yes Kristina was overly emotional and just looking for someone to validate her. I don't think she was in the right. I just don't think Raven needed to point it out in that moment. It was a total waste of time because the person she was...what, was she trying to help Kristina? was not going to hear it. So from my POV it was just Raven liking to hear herself talk and thinking she knows everything. 

Yes, this is right.  I would have more sympathy for Raven if she hadn't been playing ruler of the playground the whole time and she if she seemed at all thoughtful of the situation.  

 

22 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

. I suspect the conversation started out civil and as Kristina saw that Raven didn't agree with her she's the one who escalated the situation because as we saw she was already getting hot when the scene first opened.

Or maybe she was getting hot because Raven escalated it.  We will never know.

I don't think that Kristina behaved very well either.  But Raven's "i'm only trying to be a friend you are unreasonable" has no credibility for me given her general attitude during the whole show.  But to be honest, i have never seen why people thought she was so great.

[yorklee2]

55 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It's not that she made a mistake in the heat of the moment, it's that she's proud enough of it to go telling everyone on national TV that she thinks violence is a good answer to your problems. For that, for thinking that attacking a man is a funny story, I would not turn to her for advice. 
 

Yes, Kristina escalated things, yes Kristina was overly emotional and just looking for someone to validate her. I don't think she was in the right. I just don't think Raven needed to point it out in that moment. It was a total waste of time because the person she was...what, was she trying to help Kristina? was not going to hear it. So from my POV it was just Raven liking to hear herself talk and thinking she knows everything. 

So I think we can agree that both women made mistakes in that conversation as Raven (being intoxicated) should maybe have shut it down and walked away earlier and Kristina was being irrational for not even trying to see the truth. They were both human. One was hurting the other was trying to help (IMO) and things just got out of hand.

But I very much think Raven made a mistake in the heat of the moment with her ex. I do agree though that her thinking it was ok to tell it on national tv was wrong. She'll learn as will Kristina. Or let's hope so anyway.

Edited September 15, 2017 by yorklee2

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, call me ishmael said:

On the other hand, look at the difference in Christina's reaction.  Maybe because when Wells asked that question he was clearly trying to help her get out of the situation with some self-respect and wasn't criticizing.  Raven on the other hand was being judgmental and patronizing.  She sort of reminded me of....Raven.

34 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

I've found that women will always listen when a man tells them these things as opposed to another woman (here she went again blaming the woman)

 

I've wondered the same with regard to how she handled Wells vs Raven.

21 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It's not that she made a mistake in the heat of the moment, it's that she's proud enough of it to go telling everyone on national TV that she thinks violence is a good answer to your problems.

And this is why it's killing me that I'm actually on her side!  That story about her beating up people with a shoe made me roll my eyes so hard I'm surprised they're back in their proper position!

[Mabinogia]

12 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I've wondered the same with regard to how she handled Wells vs Raven.

Unfortunately I think that men tend to come off as less confrontational and judgy than women in this kind of situation. Just look at the body language Wells had. Casually leaning on the counter, calm tone of voice, said it with a hint of a joke in his voice. And had Kristina retorted I think he would have just laughed it off and said something like "well, I tried". Raven, possibly because she was drunk, had a more judgemental tone in her voice and when Kristina pushed back she just got louder and her voice got higher. 

I mostly watch these shows now as an example of how not to behave. 

I did give Kristina the benefit of the doubt in that exchange because the pain was very raw at that moment and I know what it's like to have a "friend" who would rather point out how you are wrong for feeling the way you do than to just put a supportive arm around you and say "you may feel differently in the morning". However. The fact that she still feels even remotely that DLo did something to her makes my respect for her plummet. Dean hurt her, Dean deceived her (though technically I'm not sure he really lied to her. He was pretty open about wanting to screw other women), and Dean kinda sorta did the same to DLo. If anything the two women should have bonded over both having terrible taste in men. 

DLo comes out of this looking the best, though her later tweet or whatever social media that was on comments about how hard it is to be pretty took her down quite a bit. But not nearly as much as her saying Dean and I's. Seriously people. That is like nails on a chalkboard to me. and she is now the worst thing ever! Burn, witch, burn! But not for what you did to Kristina (because you didn't do anything to her at all) but for what you did do to the English language! MURDERER!!! (sorry, it was a really crappy day so I just ate way too many Reese's eggs and am now on a strange sugar trip).

[ByTor]

3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

If anything the two women should have bonded over both having terrible taste in men. 

I really wish this would happen more often!

4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

DLo comes out of this looking the best, though her later tweet or whatever social media that was on comments about how hard it is to be pretty took her down quite a bit

When are people going to learn to keep their mouths shut?  ESPECIALLY when it's in a forum for the whole world to see???

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, ByTor said:

9 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

If anything the two women should have bonded over both having terrible taste in men. 

I really wish this would happen more often!

I know, right. I hate that women tend to blame the other woman more than the man. Dean is the one who made any sort of promise or commitment, not DLo. She's got every right to ask out a man who told her point blank that he was available. Did Kristina know that? Sadly, if DLo told her (and something is telling me that happened, but I could be thinking of another triangle) I doubt she'd believe it.

Kristina had her heart set on Dean being the one. Nothing was going to take her off that course other than Dean looking her in the eye (which I'm pretty sure he is physically incapable of doing) and telling her he didn't feel as strongly as she did. Which he kind of sort of did, but she needed to hear it directly and Dean was trying to let her off easy by telling her in a round about way that gave her room to believe what she wanted. 

I would say he is a master manipulator, but I have a feeling he really just dumbly stumbled into all his manipulations. He just doesn't seem bright enough to have pulled this all off deliberately. I think he just didn't want to be the "bad guy" who broke Kristina's heart and in trying to avoid it, that is exactly what he became. Ha, talk about stepping in it. 

I am curious what happened on their trip to her family. That is usually a sign of an actual relationship, not a Bachlationship. Maybe that is when things went all haywire and Kristina thought they were going to get engaged while Dean was like, shit, that was way too close, time to back the fork off. 

[GracieK]

I finally got around to watching the finale.  I don't know if this was mentioned but Taylor was actually speaking like a normal person.  Like, she wasn't like talking in upspeak?  I wonder if she noticed how grating her voice and manner of speaking is while watching the season.  Or maybe she's been hammered for it on social media.  

[ByTor]

19 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I would say he is a master manipulator, but I have a feeling he really just dumbly stumbled into all his manipulations.

Yeah, I'd say he's an apprentice manipulator at best ;-)

[forcorners]

^^Oh no, another reality tv show reference! :0

 

But seriously, I'm a bit of a newbie to this series (although I've seen snippets of episodes from the bachelor and bachelorette before). I find abc's reality tv shows to be a fun distraction to play/watch in the background when I eat dinner or am doing chores around the house on monday evenings. 

 

Having said that, I've gone back and ff'ed through a few episodes from season1. I have to say, the women from that season were far more attractive. In S4, I really only found Danielle M and Amanda to be strikingly attractive. Kristina would be next but her emotionless facade and thick accent really didn't do it for me. 

 

I hope they can find some truly hot women for future seasons. I think the next season of the bachelor holds great promise simply because of the sheer number of women who will appear for the first couple of weeks of the show. :-)

[forcorners]

I can't vouch for whether or how entertaining previous seasons of BIP were, but I think the reason why S4 was a failure is very simple: the lack of hot women for men to fight over. Pickings were slim, with maybe 2 or 3 standouts, with the others being not quite pageant ready or eligible if we were to be honest. 

 

Add to that the drama and controversy surrounding Corrinne and Demario, and the rather stern lecture the contestants(?) received from CH, and I'm sure all 3 factors sapped the show of the energy and tension required to drive relationships forward.

From what I could tell, most of the women were less than enthused with the selection of men as well. It seems like aside from Dean, the women were in more of a "meh, take it or leave it" mode or mood.

 

Danielle M who I thought was the prettiest, seemed completely disinterested, content to mingle, lounge, maybe give a couple of words of friendly advice, but ultimately so bored she felt more inclined to pack her bags for a humanitarian mission in Africa rather than waste her time in "paradise."

 

I wonder if the "sexual assault" controversy will affect the quality of contestants (is that the correct term) that the franchise can attract going forward?

[ByTor]

22 minutes ago, forcorners said:

^^Oh no, another reality tv show reference! :0

Reference unintended :P

[Rainsong]

4 hours ago, forcorners said:

I hope they can find some truly hot women for future seasons. I think the next season of the bachelor holds great promise simply because of the sheer number of women who will appear for the first couple of weeks of the show. :-)

This might be fodder for a separate thread but social media is, as usual, disrupting and even obviating some of the star-making power of the Bachelor franchise.

When Susie the Sales Rep or Heather the Hygienist, both gorgeous and with flawless physiques, can set up an Instagram and/or Snapchat account, pose for dozens of beach selfies or pro shots in her lingerie and swimwear and attract hundreds of thousands of followers as well as obtain compensation for shilling for snake oil (supplements, hair care, skin care, etc.) then the challenge faced by Bachelor producers, talent (?) scouts, etc. is even greater.  An unattached (they claim), fit lass who wants fame but may not know how to get it may not need to potentially belittle herself chasing - along with 20 other women - a Bachelor who may or may not be the prize portrayed.

It's worth noting the uncertain dance Fleiss & Co. have had with social media.  Once upon a time, Bachelor participants vanished completely.  Obviously, the producers were hoping that the mystery about the cast would drive ratings and prevent spoilers.  Eventually the folly of that approach became evident to all and the cast were inducted into the magic circle, so to speak, by keeping their accounts active.  They could hype episodes to followers, react in real time (but avoid spoilers at all costs) and act as an avenue for audience feedback.  Still, the 'social contract' of the show is that we know nothing about these women until they appear onscreen.

Another problem is that the producers - especially with CH in partial command - have taken to mocking their own product mercilessly.  CH does his shouty voiceovers as usual but then, as the Brits say, he takes the pi** out of the show and every contestant whenever he is interviewed.  Person A is crazy, Person B is a naive virgin, Person C is a femme fatale, etc.  Why unilaterally devalue your product?  What if the organizers of The Masters tournament dismissively said 'yeah, some guys are going to chase a white ball around for four days and one of them will get a sport coat at the end?'  It can reasonably be claimed that the action-interview-reaction-interview sequencing originated with The Bachelor and spread across the reality TV landscape, especially Real Housewives.  But Real Housewives et al are done with tongue firmly planted in cheek - nobody's taking it very seriously.  When they do it it's amusing but when The Bachelor participants and producers do it they are undermining their own plot.  The problem, as above, is that when you (intentionally) foment cynicism, you get cynical people applying to be cast members.  One of the biggest problems with this year's BIP is that every person was more cynical than the next.  They were never willing to 'give good show' as they say at Disney World and the entire season turned into 'yeah let's hook up - nah let's break up' drudgery.

We are like Linus Van Pelt standing in the pumpkin patch at Halloween, desperately looking for sincerity despite being all but convinced that sincerity no longer exists.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Rainsong

[JenE4]

I think the problem with this show is that multiple engagements are now expected. This used to be a fun hook-up show. I don't think the idea of a Neil Lane ending was even on the plate until Marcus was so gaga over Lacey that they called up Neil to fly out with whatever clearance special he had laying around. Now all of these contestants are in a sheer panic that they're not ready to get engaged after a 2-week vacation. Bring Bukowski out of retirement to show these kids how it's done! YOPO!

[Mabinogia]

I do miss the days when these idiots weren't trying to be the next televised wedding couple.

[ClareWalks]

They should make it more like Bachelor Pad. I wanna see alliances. I wanna see kissing contests and Twister tournaments. I wanna see pool parties and appearances by D-list celebs.

[Stan39]

2 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I think the problem with this show is that multiple engagements are now expected. This used to be a fun hook-up show. I don't think the idea of a Neil Lane ending was even on the plate until Marcus was so gaga over Lacey that they called up Neil to fly out with whatever clearance special he had laying around. Now all of these contestants are in a sheer panic that they're not ready to get engaged after a 2-week vacation. Bring Bukowski out of retirement to show these kids how it's done! YOPO!

The best part of the Marcus and Lacey storyline was that she was totally into another guy. Then, at the rose ceremony, Marcus just happened to get to pick before the other guy, so he picked Lacey. For some reason, Lacey assumed this meant she had to dump the other guy and start hooking up with Marcus. Lol. Such an airhead. 

The more I think about it, the more I think Lacy and Daniel planned their whole affair. Not just them coupling up, but the subsequent fight on the reunion. They knew each other before the show, and I imagine Lacy convinced Daniel that if he played along he'd get to stay in Paradise. Watching them on the couch, he didn't act like a guy who was count lying. He acted like someone who forgot his lines, lol. He kept looking at Lacy with a "what am I supposed to say now?" Expression. In the end, I think Lacy overestimated how much people would care about her. 

[forcorners]

Rainsong, that's an important point. Why would a beautiful young woman go through the hassle and humiliation involved with running the bachelor/ette/IP gauntlet when they can literally create their own brand via instagram and youtube instead?

 

1. they will likely make FAR MORE MONEY on youtube/instagram/patreon, well into the hundreds of thousands annually compared to the piddling payouts (nonexistent) afforded by an appearance on the franchise.

 

2. no need to disrupt your work/travel schedule. Not many people can afford to set aside 3-4 weeks esp if they won't be paid (are contestants on the franchise paid?). And accommodations are barebone at best. Living in a single room with 4 bunkbeds???? Outrageous. I wouldn't even tolerate that as a freshman in college. :0

 

3. they have TOTAL CONTROL over their content and "brand." It's bizarre that anyone would tolerate allowing themselves to be edited so as to make them appear to be having a conversation with a raccoon for example. 

 

Social media has undermined traditional media, leaving only it's putrid remains and ruins: the bachelor franchise for example. 

 

Overall, this does not bode well for the future of the bachelor franchise. Take a look at the women on S1 of BIP vs S4. The quality of women has dropped precipitously in just 3 short seasons. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by forcorners

[forcorners]

21 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Unfortunately I think that men tend to come off as less confrontational and judgy than women in this kind of situation. Just look at the body language Wells had. Casually leaning on the counter, calm tone of voice, said it with a hint of a joke in his voice. And had Kristina retorted I think he would have just laughed it off and said something like "well, I tried". Raven, possibly because she was drunk, had a more judgemental tone in her voice and when Kristina pushed back she just got louder and her voice got higher. 

I mostly watch these shows now as an example of how not to behave. 

I did give Kristina the benefit of the doubt in that exchange because the pain was very raw at that moment and I know what it's like to have a "friend" who would rather point out how you are wrong for feeling the way you do than to just put a supportive arm around you and say "you may feel differently in the morning". However. The fact that she still feels even remotely that DLo did something to her makes my respect for her plummet. Dean hurt her, Dean deceived her (though technically I'm not sure he really lied to her. He was pretty open about wanting to screw other women), and Dean kinda sorta did the same to DLo. If anything the two women should have bonded over both having terrible taste in men. 

DLo comes out of this looking the best, though her later tweet or whatever social media that was on comments about how hard it is to be pretty took her down quite a bit. But not nearly as much as her saying Dean and I's. Seriously people. That is like nails on a chalkboard to me. and she is now the worst thing ever! Burn, witch, burn! But not for what you did to Kristina (because you didn't do anything to her at all) but for what you did do to the English language! MURDERER!!! (sorry, it was a really crappy day so I just ate way too many Reese's eggs and am now on a strange sugar trip).

I'm continually amazed at how beta men are expected to behave these days.

 

1. the rising octave at the end of each sentence.

2. soft, lispy voices.

3. a total unwillingness to disagree with a woman at all costs

4. endless smiling and gift giving

 

Only during the finale "tell alls" are men even willing to stick up for themselves even in the slightest. Demario for example crying about being victimized but unwilling to call out Corinne for her endless lies. 

[chocolatine]

37 minutes ago, forcorners said:

Rainsong, that's an important point. Why would a beautiful young woman go through the hassle and humiliation involved with running the bachelor/ette/IP gauntlet when they can literally create their own brand via instagram and youtube instead?

 

1. they will likely make FAR MORE MONEY on youtube/instagram/patreon, well into the hundreds of thousands annually compared to the piddling payouts (nonexistent) afforded by an appearance on the franchise.

To make that kind of money via social media someone has to have a huge amount of followers. Even for beautiful women that doesn't happen overnight; it can take years of creating interesting content to build up that kind of following organically. Going on the Bachelor gives someone a huge social media following instantly, so it's still an attractive option for those who just want to shill products without doing the hard work of creating content.

[saber5055]

The difference as I see it in how Wells talked to Kristina vs. how Raven talked to Kristina: Wells asked Kristina a simple question that Kristina then had to think about before answering. Raven made STATEMENTS at Kristina that Kristina wasn't in a mood to listen to. Raven did nothing to help Kristina see what had happened, she just stated facts as she saw them, which, of course, differed with how Kristina saw the situation. Wells did it correctly. If Raven had asked Kristina what SHE wanted and WHY she wanted that, then let Kristina answer, that argument would have never happened and maybe, just maybe, Raven could have made Kristina feel better. Of course, that requires having a logical and adult-sized brain.

[forcorners]

Are any of the contestants actually making significant endorsement money? I can't think of any products offhand where I've seen any of the franchise contestants featured. 

[chocolatine]

38 minutes ago, forcorners said:

Are any of the contestants actually making significant endorsement money? I can't think of any products offhand where I've seen any of the franchise contestants featured. 

Amanda apparently makes $20-30k/month, according to her ex-husband, who asked the court to let him stop paying her spousal support because of her high earnings. I've also read somewhere that Jade made over $1M since she started shilling, though I don't remember how legit the source was. If you go to to the Instagram pages of Amanda, Jade, Carly, Ashley Iaconetti, etc., you'll see them shilling for tooth whiteners, hair vitamins, subscription boxes, meal delivery plans, clothes, "slimming" teas, sunglasses, etc. Amanda also pimps out her daughters by shilling for the clothes they wear.

[Bugs Meany]

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

To make that kind of money via social media someone has to have a huge amount of followers. Even for beautiful women that doesn't happen overnight; it can take years of creating interesting content to build up that kind of following organically. Going on the Bachelor gives someone a huge social media following instantly, so it's still an attractive option for those who just want to shill products without doing the hard work of creating content.

All correct. Jen Saviano (Ben H.'s season, Nick's BIP gf) is one of the most beautiful Bachelor contestants ever. Before Ben's season aired she had only a few thousand followers. She had to come back for BIP to get noticed; now she has 208K. That's still relatively low, btw: beauty is not nearly enough. Completely average-looking Carly has 915K, and barely above-average Amanda has over a million. The magic formula is camera time and a dramatic storyline. There are many examples of girls gaining millions of followers based only on their content, but that takes years. As you said, going on the show is a shortcut to Instafame.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Bugs Meany said:

As you said, going on the show is a shortcut to Instafame.

Exactly. What is a Carly going to do without Bachelor fame? Who is going to follow her? Why would they? But she's on Bachelor, and she's the snarky girl who makes all the funny comments and people go to her social media to get more quips, to maybe get some behind the scene's info on the show they love. Then they see her shilling stuff. They don't buy it, but the advertiser who is paying her doesn't care because their product just got eyeballs. Advertisers don't care if people go to her site to ridicule her, make fun of her, cyber bully her, all they care is that they saw the ad on her page for Crest White Strips (or whatever) and that their product is now in that person's head. 

It's the sad state of our world. It doesn't matter why you have followers, just that you have enough and the fastest way to get followers is to get on TV and make a fool of yourself. Welcome to our Brave New World.

[Bugs Meany]

53 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

They don't buy it, but the advertiser who is paying her doesn't care because their product just got eyeballs.

All agreed but for this part. Personalized promo codes (usually the shiller's name) let the advertiser know whose posts actually generate sales. If a contestant's followers don't buy enough to make the ad spending worth it, the endorsement money well will eventually dry up.

[call me ishmael]

It's too bad Colbert and Stewart already did it in 2012 or Dean could make money marketing "indecision 2017" for men.

[forcorners]

What do the contestants make otherwise? Aside from any endorsement deals they can sign as a result of their tv appearances? I read that the leads make $100K and maybe have their wedding paid for. But producers aren't paying each contestant that much. Do they receive any salary from the show itself?

 

Too bad the contestants lack leverage. Each season of the show generates up to $100 mil in ad revenue. 

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, forcorners said:

Too bad the contestants lack leverage. Each season of the show generates up to $100 mil in ad revenue. 

Thus why networks love reality shows.

[chocolatine]

On 9/16/2017 at 11:32 AM, Bugs Meany said:

All agreed but for this part. Personalized promo codes (usually the shiller's name) let the advertiser know whose posts actually generate sales. If a contestant's followers don't buy enough to make the ad spending worth it, the endorsement money well will eventually dry up.

There are several success metrics for online ads, and impressions (i.e. eyeballs) is one of them. The Bachelor Family shillers aren't famous enough to get products to fly off the shelves like for example the Kardashians can. The strategy of the brands who advertise with them is to get the same handful of products mentioned ad nauseam by multiple "influencers", so that, after seeing a product advertised hundreds of times, people may become curious enough to try it.

Edited September 18, 2017 by chocolatine

[JudyObscure]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:05 AM, Rainsong said:

When Susie the Sales Rep or Heather the Hygienist, both gorgeous and with flawless physiques, can set up an Instagram and/or Snapchat account, pose for dozens of beach selfies or pro shots in her lingerie and swimwear and attract hundreds of thousands of followers as well as obtain compensation for shilling for snake oil (supplements, hair care, skin care, etc.) then the challenge faced by Bachelor producers, talent (?) scouts, etc. is even greater.  An unattached (they claim), fit lass who wants fame but may not know how to get it may not need to potentially belittle herself chasing - along with 20 other women - a Bachelor who may or may not be the prize portrayed.

It's all perspective I guess, but to me a woman who goes on The Bachelor can at least pretend that she wants to meet an above average man, make some new friends, travel and have the experience of being part of a TV show, while the one who takes pictures of herself in lingerie and posts them on social media for men to -- cough-- enjoy, is the one who is belittling herself.  Like the women who pose for Playboy, they are selling their own bodies.  I may be the last living person who thinks nude modeling and prostitution are degrading occupations, but  I do.

 

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:37 PM, saber5055 said:

Wells asked Kristina a simple question that Kristina then had to think about before answering.

Another smart thing Wells did was preface his question with a compliment about how beautiful, smart and special she was. That's always a good way to begin when giving critical advice.

[PhysNerd]

On September 14, 2017 at 8:44 PM, ByTor said:

 

I've wondered the same with regard to how she handled Wells vs Raven.

And this is why it's killing me that I'm actually on her side!  That story about her beating up people with a shoe made me roll my eyes so hard I'm surprised they're back in their proper position!

It's simple: Raven came across as defending Danielle rather than on being a comforting ear to Kristina and asking her questions.  Danielle was Kristina's rival in this weird love triangle, so when Raven focused on defending Danielle, Kristina felt betrayed. In contrast, Wells built up Kristina's self-esteem with compliments and asked why she was letting Dean treat her this way.  

 

To be fair, Raven is only 25, so she still has a lot of maturing to do.  Wells is 31, so he at least has more experience in giving advice. 

 

[ByTor]

13 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

It's simple: Raven came across as defending Danielle rather than on being a comforting ear to Kristina and asking her questions.  Danielle was Kristina's rival in this weird love triangle, so when Raven focused on defending Danielle, Kristina felt betrayed. In contrast, Wells built up Kristina's self-esteem with compliments and asked why she was letting Dean treat her this way.  

I get what you're saying, but I don't think Raven was defending Danielle as much as she was telling Kristina to put the blame where it belongs. I guess, though, in comparison that's pretty much what Wells did, but without bringing Danielle's name into it.

Edited September 18, 2017 by ByTor

[ljenkins782]

Quote

 

Quote

When Susie the Sales Rep or Heather the Hygienist, both gorgeous and with flawless physiques, can set up an Instagram and/or Snapchat account, pose for dozens of beach selfies or pro shots in her lingerie and swimwear and attract hundreds of thousands of followers as well as obtain compensation for shilling for snake oil (supplements, hair care, skin care, etc.) then the challenge faced by Bachelor producers, talent (?) scouts, etc. is even greater.  An unattached (they claim), fit lass who wants fame but may not know how to get it may not need to potentially belittle herself chasing - along with 20 other women - a Bachelor who may or may not be the prize portrayed.

Quote

It's all perspective I guess, but to me a woman who goes on The Bachelor can at least pretend that she wants to meet an above average man, make some new friends, travel and have the experience of being part of a TV show, while the one who takes pictures of herself in lingerie and posts them on social media for men to -- cough-- enjoy, is the one who is belittling herself.  Like the women who pose for Playboy, they are selling their own bodies.  I may be the last living person who thinks nude modeling and prostitution are degrading occupations, but  I do.

To make that kind of money via social media someone has to have a huge amount of followers. Even for beautiful women that doesn't happen overnight; it can take years of creating interesting content to build up that kind of following organically. Going on the Bachelor gives someone a huge social media following instantly, so it's still an attractive option for those who just want to shill products without doing the hard work of creating content.

 

I don't agree that social media is in any way impeding the casting process. I'm also having a little trouble with the idea that someone who takes their clothes off for what I assume are unpaid (at least in the beginning) photo sessions and posts them online would find appearing on this show "belittling in comparison, but maybe that's just me. 

As stated above, people need a ton of followers to catch the attention of advertisers and I don't think your average quasi-porn internet "model" is exactly going to be drawing the demographic that advertisers look for, particularly those seeking to market toward the female audience (which I'd assume is a huge market share). 

Being on these shows gives even the most invisible contestant a certain amount of publicity and they can always milk that by sharing stories of behind the scenes or whatever, which turns into followers (at least for a little while), so it makes sense that they put in more appearances on related shows just keep their names out there. 

Quote

Are any of the contestants actually making significant endorsement money? I can't think of any products offhand where I've seen any of the franchise contestants featured. 

That's not the kind of endorsement deals they do, it's not like a celebrity doing commercials on tv or appearing on the labeling of a product. 

You'd only connect these people to the products they shill for if you follow them on Instagram or wherever and see the photos they post of themselves wearing/using/talking about something. It's typically thinly disguised as a candid shot, but the hashtags will have the brand of whatever it is they're trying to sell. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

Google "buy instagram followers" to find out how you too can garner fake followers. Like the Bachelorettes do. Pretty soon your chyron can say "social media influencer" and you can shill with the best of them.

[kira28]

Dean is so immature. It's, like he's emotionally stuck at 13 or whenever his mom died. He wants what he can't have or what seems unavailable. What he did to both Danielle and Kristina was cruel

Kristina loses points in my eyes though because she's still blaming Dlo for the failed relationship with Dean. And as dim as Danielle is she nailed it when she said Dean owed her the conversation about why he accepted the date. Hell dean forgot who Kristina was as soon as Danielle showed up. He's the one who threw Kristina under the bus 

I loved that diggy was rejected, was confused by Kristen's but we are barely acquaintances.... Um you made out with Jack Stone. Amanda and Robbie were boring. She was not into him at all. He made it sound like she wouldn't sleep with him. Jasmine and Alexis were total mean girls and very annoying. Not a Dlo fan bit she looked gorgeous. The Derek and Taylor proposal was OK. The raven thing was weird. Tired of demario and corrine.

[yorklee2]

On 9/17/2017 at 3:37 PM, JudyObscure said:

It's all perspective I guess, but to me a woman who goes on The Bachelor can at least pretend that she wants to meet an above average man, make some new friends, travel and have the experience of being part of a TV show, while the one who takes pictures of herself in lingerie and posts them on social media for men to -- cough-- enjoy, is the one who is belittling herself.  Like the women who pose for Playboy, they are selling their own bodies.  I may be the last living person who thinks nude modeling and prostitution are degrading occupations, but  I do.

 

Another smart thing Wells did was preface his question with a compliment about how beautiful, smart and special she was. That's always a good way to begin when giving critical advice.

I'm with you Judy. Nude modeling and prostitution are degrading. So your not the only one.

Not sure this makes any difference but I watched that scene over and Wells actually started with, "why do you want to chase a man who is not chasing you" Then he proceeded to tell her she could do better, she was beautiful smart and basically said there are plenty of men who would chase you so why do you want to chase one who doesn't want you. That was his initial reaction when he heard what was going on with Raven and Kristina. His tone of voice and facial expressions showed he thought she was being a fool for letting Dean use her that way. I think due to her reaction he then softened his tone and was trying to lift her up by being encouraging.

[JudyObscure]

I remembered the whole thing wrong, then.  Not only did I think he started with the compliments, I thought he said, "Why are you fighting for someone who wont fight for you?" 

Edited September 19, 2017 by JudyObscure

[yorklee2]

15 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I remembered the whole thing wrong, then.  Not only did I think he started with the compliments, I thought he said, "Why are you fighting for someone who wont fight for you?" 

You know Judy I'm not 100% on that. He might actually have said "fighting" but my recollection is that he said "chasing". But I am 100% sure he started the conversation out with the question of why she was chasing/fighting Dean when he wouldn't chase/fight for her.

Edited September 19, 2017 by yorklee2

[Armchair Critic]

On 9/15/2017 at 0:24 PM, JenE4 said:

Bring Bukowski out of retirement to show these kids how it's done!

Unfortunately I think he's too much of a "grown ass man" now. His season of Bachelor Pad with the desperate nurse Jamie was the best! He was a pig but he owned it, I remember him saying Jamie was a yapper and the only way to shut her up was to kiss her.

[kazza]

8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I remembered the whole thing wrong, then.  Not only did I think he started with the compliments, I thought he said, "Why are you fighting for someone who wont fight for you?" 

 

8 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

But I am 100% sure he started the conversation out with the question of why she was chasing/fighting Dean when he wouldn't chase/fight for her.

You're both right. I remember quoting Wells in an earlier post because it was just such a disarming, decent human being thing to say:

"Can I ask you a question? Why are you fighting for someone who's not fighting for you? (non-judgmental, caring look). You are amazing. You are one of the coolest, badass chicks in the world, and you don't deserve it. You know?"