S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[The Companion]

9 hours ago, Daisy said:

Me either. I've always said - Oberyn's death was 100 percent on Oberyn. yes the circumstances was all shady as crap - (Tywin pushing forward with the trial and everything) but Oberyn had a chance to kill the Mountain (like really kill him) and he was so focused on "Admit the truth!" that's what caused his death. Ellaria couldn't deal with that, and she killed Myrcella. I don't apologise for Cersei but i'll never blame her for her it went down either. 

Oberyn is definitely responsible for his own death. He could have shut up and killed the Mountain, but he had to get his confession. I think Cersei blames Tyrion for Myrcella's death because (a) he sent her away; and (b) Oberyn was killed in his trial by combat. However, neither of those reasons seems very compelling when she is the one who fixed her brother's trial forcing his hand. She is also the one who sat there smirking when Oberyn was killed. Could she have mitigated the loss had she been kind to Ellaria? Maybe not. That woman was not rational. She killed a little girl who had no responsibility whatsoever for Oberyn's death. However, it couldn't have helped that Ellaria watched her lover die and then looked up to Cersei's arrogant smirkface. I do think she has always been unreasonable about Tyrion sending Myrcella away. There was a war coming to King's Landing and people were dropping like flies. At least Myrcella got a few years of happiness. 

9 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

If the wight hadn't jumped out of the box all scary as hell, what excuse would Euron have given for taking his marbles and leaving?

My husband was convinced the wight would be dead and it would be all for nothing. It was a tense moment!

I think there are two possibilities. One is that Euron was told to make an excuse to get out of there. That may be why he was picking the fight with Theon. The other possibility is that Cersei is full of crap. That woman has not exactly been a pillar of honesty and virtue. She could have been lying to Jamie (it wouldn't be the first time) because she thought it would keep him. 

A third possibility, and one that I am not sure Cersei has considered is that Euron was serious. He may have agreed to get the Golden Army before he saw the wight, but once he saw both the wight and the firepower behind Daenerys, he very well may betray Cersei. 

6 hours ago, Katalina said:

On re-watch, I'm noticing Qyburn with the wight's severed hand. Davos takes it from Qyburn, and he and Jon burn it, and the look on Qyburn's face is kind of “why do you want to burn them?” Like a neat toy has been taken from him.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by The Companion

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I think there are two possibilities. One is that Euron was told to make an excuse to get out of there. That may be why he was picking the fight with Theon. The other possibility is that Cersei is full of crap. That woman has not exactly been a pillar of honesty and virtue. She could have been lying to Jamie (it wouldn't be the first time) because she thought it would keep him. 

A third possibility, and one that I am not sure Cersei has considered is that Euron was serious. He may have agreed to get the Golden Army before he saw the wight, but once he saw both the wight and the firepower behind Daenerys, he very well may betray Cersei. 

My first thought watching that scene was that Cercei was lying. That Euron did leave and she is trying to pacify Jaime. But I do like the third option even better. That she thinks Euron is coming back but Euron, not being a total moron (though close), truly did say fuck this shit, I'm staying on my safe little island until you are all dead. Mainly because I want to see Cercei suffer the loss of every ally she has. I want her to be totally and completely alone before someone comes and kills the bitch. I don't care who at this point. They can all take turns for all I care. But I want her to first realize she has driven away anyone who ever cared for her or even remotely liked or hell, even tolerated her. I want her to be alone with her crown and her throne, ruler of nothing and no one (not because it is all destroyed but because the seat of power was relocated to the north or to Dragonstone and no one gives a fuck about the iron throne or Kings Landing)...and then dead.

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, Mabinogia said:

My first thought watching that scene was that Cercei was lying. That Euron did leave and she is trying to pacify Jaime. But I do like the third option even better. That she thinks Euron is coming back but Euron, not being a total moron (though close), truly did say fuck this shit, I'm staying on my safe little island until you are all dead. Mainly because I want to see Cercei suffer the loss of every ally she has. I want her to be totally and completely alone before someone comes and kills the bitch. I don't care who at this point. They can all take turns for all I care. But I want her to first realize she has driven away anyone who ever cared for her or even remotely liked or hell, even tolerated her. I want her to be alone with her crown and her throne, ruler of nothing and no one (not because it is all destroyed but because the seat of power was relocated to the north or to Dragonstone and no one gives a fuck about the iron throne or Kings Landing)...and then dead.

YES! At this point, it would be harder to find someone who didn't have a solid reason for wanting her dead. I feel a little bloodthirsty rooting for her death as hard as I do, but she feels like a cockroach. Everyone around her is getting killed and she just keeps going. I think it would be pretty awesome if she got killed by the people. A bunch of nobodies she doesn't deign to acknowledge. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I would love it if Jamie came to Winterfell and fell madly in love with Sansa—she deserves a good man and when Jamie’s away from his sister, he is a good guy.

Yeah, but he's the one who pushed her brother Bran which resulted in him being crippled. If it weren't for that, I'd be down for this pairing. I think she's going to get with Gendry I think his name is, Robert Barathian's son.

Quote

Regarding the reveal about Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, I wonder when this whole secret relationship started.  Was it after he kidnapped her from the tournament or had they met before?

Well since we see that the rebellion was based on a lie and they were actually in love, is it possible that he had nothing to do with kidnapping her?

Edited August 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Katalina]

I'll always see the Stark sisters playing LF as beginning with Arya finding the note in LF's room. Yes, he wanted her to find it, but she also wanted him to know she was searching his room (the incredible noise she made while tossing his room). And it seems, in retrospect, that Arya and Sansa had their arguments/fights in hallways, and not so often in private spaces. Plus, they always seemed a bit stilted when having their fights, which I assumed was to telegraph to the audience that they were  play-acting. I just always saw it that way.

While being okay with aunt/nephew incest, I'm squicked by pairing 40-ish Jamie with 20-ish Sansa. Plus, he shoved Bran and crippled him (while trying to kill him). No redemption arc can cover that, IMO.

[Popples]

12 hours ago, Jewlmc said:

Cersei is a hag. LOl at "We've been waiting for some time" Your ass was waiting for two minutes STFU. You know she wishes she had a Dragon. Qyburn too. 

Nah. Qyburn would rather have a dozen or so wights to do things with.

1 hour ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

I would love it if Jamie came to Winterfell and fell madly in love with Sansa—she deserves a good man and when Jamie’s away from his sister, he is a good guy.

When Bran remembers or has visions of Jaime pushing him out of the window, that might get awkward.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Popples
Typo

[Calamity Jane]

56 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

 I think she's going to get with Gendry I think his name is, Robert Barathian's son.

 

I've been cherishing a hope that Gendry is the black-haired baby Cersei gave birth to that supposedly died, and thereby Robert's legitimate heir.  Then it could make sense for him to be with Sansa.  

[The Companion]

47 minutes ago, doram said:

Did Littlefinger love Catelyn or did she just represent his complexes?

I would say Littlefinger was obsessed with her and/or loved the idea of her. He would tell you he loved her, and I think he truly believed it. However, his love was as self-serving as Cersei's. He did not seem genuinely capable of loving her, just the idea of her. He reminds me a bit of an ex of mine who really loved the relationship but didn't seem to love anything particular about me. He was a great boyfriend on the surface (giving me presents, writing poetry, etc.) but he never really loved me. He wasn't proud of me and he always thought what he was doing was way more important than what I was doing. 

17 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

I've been cherishing a hope that Gendry is the black-haired baby Cersei gave birth to that supposedly died, and thereby Robert's legitimate heir.  Then it could make sense for him to be with Sansa.  

I legitimately thought they were going there (or it was going to end up being Jon) in Season 1. I would love to see that be true. However, I kinda thought Gendry might end up with Arya rather than Sansa.

[ChipBach]

47 minutes ago, Katalina said:

I'll always see the Stark sisters playing LF as beginning with Arya finding the note in LF's room. Yes, he wanted her to find it, but she also wanted him to know she was searching his room (the incredible noise she made while tossing his room). And it seems, in retrospect, that Arya and Sansa had their arguments/fights in hallways, and not so often in private spaces. Plus, they always seemed a bit stilted when having their fights, which I assumed was to telegraph to the audience that they were  play-acting. I just always saw it that way.

I hope they give a HUGE SMACK in the head to that bratty little nephew.  He is like a weak Joeffery.  I hate that kid.

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

At her age there's a higher chance of anomalies, for sure.

Do we know if Jon is fireproof too?

When Jon first fought a wight at Castle Black, he burned it and was himself burned. So I'd have to say he's not fireproof. 

11 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

If the wight hadn't jumped out of the box all scary as hell, what excuse would Euron have given for taking his marbles and leaving?

Euron would have continued to pick fights with people (he already did with Tyrion and Theon) and then Cersei would have told him to leave. 

But I like the possibilities raised above that either Cersei was lying to cover up the loss of one of her biggest allies or that Euron really was serious.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

I think there are two possibilities. One is that Euron was told to make an excuse to get out of there. That may be why he was picking the fight with Theon. The other possibility is that Cersei is full of crap. That woman has not exactly been a pillar of honesty and virtue. She could have been lying to Jamie (it wouldn't be the first time) because she thought it would keep him. 

A third possibility, and one that I am not sure Cersei has considered is that Euron was serious. He may have agreed to get the Golden Army before he saw the wight, but once he saw both the wight and the firepower behind Daenerys, he very well may betray Cersei. 

My first thought watching that scene was that Cercei was lying. That Euron did leave and she is trying to pacify Jaime. But I do like the third option even better. That she thinks Euron is coming back but Euron, not being a total moron (though close), truly did say fuck this shit, I'm staying on my safe little island until you are all dead. Mainly because I want to see Cercei suffer the loss of every ally she has. I want her to be totally and completely alone before someone comes and kills the bitch. I don't care who at this point. They can all take turns for all I care. But I want her to first realize she has driven away anyone who ever cared for her or even remotely liked or hell, even tolerated her. I want her to be alone with her crown and her throne, ruler of nothing and no one (not because it is all destroyed but because the seat of power was relocated to the north or to Dragonstone and no one gives a fuck about the iron throne or Kings Landing)...and then dead.

There's an additional possibility that I really wish would have happened.  
Euron and his (not Cersei's) fleet are charged with delivering the gold, etc.  
Euron is nothing unless he can rape, pillage and plunder.   Euron loads the gold, etc. onto his ships and sails to the Iron Islands and sends a raven to Cersei claiming a massive storm blew up and sunk the heavily loaded ships with gold.

 

What would she do?  She has no ships.  

[voiceover]

I like the idea of giving all the principle characters a shot at Cersei.  An Agatha Christie-inspired murder, a la 

Spoiler

Murder on the Orient Express

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

3 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

 

2 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

I've been cherishing a hope that Gendry is the black-haired baby Cersei gave birth to that supposedly died, and thereby Robert's legitimate heir.  Then it could make sense for him to be with Sansa.  

I wonder what the protocol is for asking the Three Eyed Raven to visit a certain event?  We just saw him checking out Jon's parents wedding.  

The black-haired baby....has anyone got access to the casting call for the character Gendry and the color of his hair being specified as ______?

[Calamity Jane]

3 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

I wonder what the protocol is for asking the Three Eyed Raven to visit a certain event?  We just saw him checking out Jon's parents wedding.  

The black-haired baby....has anyone got access to the casting call for the character Gendry and the color of his hair being specified as ______?

Well, I'm sure they wanted a character with really dark hair because that was the clue that led both Jon Arryn and Ned Stark to the truth about Robert's bastards vs the three blond-haired children everyone thought were his but were Jaime's.  All of the Baratheons listed in that book were "black of hair."

[festivus]

Jamie's hand is real gold, right? I just assumed he was covering it up so no-one would try to steal it from him while he's out riding alone to wherever the hell he's going. 

[tennisgurl]

I have always assumed that Gendry and Arya would end up getting married, and I've suspected this would happen since they first met in season one. And now that Gendry has met and become bros with Jon, and has embraced his Baratheon heritage, complete with a copy of his dads war hammer, I think the show will end with Gendry being legitimized as the last Baratheon standing, to keep the line from dying out, and he will marry Arya, finally creating that Stark/Baratheon match that they just jeep trying to make happen. 

[Lady S.]

We've already got the secret prince thing with Jon, no need for two when there's no way a Baratheon is ending up back on the Iron Throne. Bastards can always be legitimized by royal decree, remember? I'd love to see Dany (or Jon) giving the Baratheon name to the Usurper's bastard. Gendry should be for Arya, though, but I don't think either sister is in the market for a husband. (However, I am looking forward now to the Sansa/Tyrion reunion in s8.)

Jon forgave Theon for the oathbreaking (and Ser Rodrik's death, I guess) but no way Jon or Sansa would have forgiven him if he'd actually murdered a Stark or say, permanently crippled a Stark boy by trying to murder him. It's not that murdering strangers, including other children is somehow okay, that's why Jon said he didn't have the right to forgive Theon for everything, but it's not something Jon or Sansa had reason to personally care about amid larger concerns. Tormund and Ygritte killed countless innocent northerners in s4 and Jon never held it against them. 

10 minutes ago, festivus said:

Jamie's hand is real gold, right? I just assumed he was covering it up so no-one would try to steal it from him while he's out riding alone to wherever the hell he's going. 

Wouldn't solid gold be pretty heavy? Pretty sure it's just gilded. But Cersei had the hand made for him and now he's covering up that piece of his Lannister past with a black glove, while wearing a black cape, on a black horse, almost like a Night's Watch ranger. Seemed like pretty obvious symbolism to me. 

[festivus]

2 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Wouldn't solid gold be pretty heavy? Pretty sure it's just gilded. But Cersei had the hand made for him and now he's covering up that piece of his Lannister past with a black glove, while wearing a black cape, on a black horse, almost like a Night's Watch ranger. Seemed like pretty obvious symbolism to me. 

Yep, that makes much more sense. I couldn't remember about the hand. 

[TobinAlbers]

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I have always assumed that Gendry and Arya would end up getting married, and I've suspected this would happen since they first met in season one. And now that Gendry has met and become bros with Jon, and has embraced his Baratheon heritage, complete with a copy of his dads war hammer, I think the show will end with Gendry being legitimized as the last Baratheon standing, to keep the line from dying out, and he will marry Arya, finally creating that Stark/Baratheon match that they just jeep trying to make happen. 

On one hand, I'd love for Gendry to get that legitimacy and for the Baratheon house to not die out.

On the other it may make him a target for some and be a pointless title as he has no experience leading or politicking.  But if it's just about allowing the house to not die out, he could make the name proud as a blacksmith, make a good match in marriage and begin to restore the house.

Don't know why I'm for it, but I think if Gendry marries anyone in House Stark it'll be Sansa. Right now she's not in the mindset for romance or marriage, but Gendry is unlike any of the men in her past marriages and unlike anyone her younger self thought she'd ever marry.  For some reason I can see him making her laugh again, possibly even prove his worth for her trust in a man to love her (Imagine Gendry swinging that hammer in defense of Sansa or her sister or Bran or Winterfell), and if he is legitimized by King Jon or Queen Dany so that he could take over House Baratheon, Sansa would help him improve the House Baratheon fortunes by running both Houses as she's pretty good at that.  There is some irony if she does marry into House Baratheon in a completely unexpected way - she falls for and marries a not so bright but good hearted bastard blacksmith.  And given that it took Jon and Dany 6 episodes to fall in love and into bed, with the final season at 6 episodes there is reasonable time to believe Sansa and Gendry could bond enough to make it believable.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I think the show will end with Gendry being legitimized as the last Baratheon standing, to keep the line from dying out, and he will marry Arya, finally creating that Stark/Baratheon match that they just jeep trying to make happen. 

There's just one problem, I don't think Arya is  trying to marry anybody, definitely not before nor after she slits Cersei's throat, which I so look forward to happening. I think she's said pretty much that she's nobody's lady and she's nobody's wife either. I think her dad said something to her in season one about getting married and she pretty much said, hell no, LOL. I don't see that changing.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[MrsR]

Arya is a girl with goals! Once she finishes her list, she might consider marrying someone whose talents complement her interests. Like a weapons maker. Then they can bond over their work.

[tennisgurl]

Plus, Arya told Ned she didn't want to just be a pretty lady doing embroidery with a nice, noble husband who she didn't even know. Gendry is a guy she already knows, likes, and cares about, is more or less a normal, non pretentious guy, and I imagine would stay that way as much as possible even with a title, and I cant see Gendry trying to tell Arya to stay at home in the kitchen (embroidery room?)or anything. He coukd make weapons for her to fight with! It would be adorable! Once Arya crosses all her names off her list, I think she might be somewhat receptive to that particular Stark/Baratheon union. 

Plus, we all remember the day Arya hit puberty, watching Gendry make hammers with his shirt off :) 

[Mabinogia]

I don't see Arya marrying and I don't see her settling down. Honestly she seems more like she'd be a Kings Guard or Night Watcher. She and Gendry may end up together but I don't think that means they have to get married. What are their ages supposed to be? Because I always felt she was much younger than him, though she may not be. I saw more of a brother sister relationship between them. 

I want Sansa to marry someone nice who will make her laugh and appreciate her. I want it to be someone noble just because she was pretty much raised to do nothing else. She wouldn't know what to do with herself without a house to run. 

I just want both sisters to follow their own paths and I like that their paths are so different. I wouldn't want Arya to settle down because that's just not her. 

[Star Aristille]

8 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

I loved that Sansa pointed out that Baelish’s pushing Lysa out of the moon door enabled him to take power of the Vale, and that Lysa’s threatening Sansa’s life didn’t even enter into his plans.

Especially because he'd already talked Lysa out of throwing Sansa out of the Moon Door at that point.  She was technically no longer a threat by then , so he wasn't really protecting Sansa anymore.

[NeenerNeener]

I was just thinking that Sansa and Bronn might work out well when the dust settles. He gets a castle out of it, and since he doesn't have a noble last name he might not mind becoming a Stark, so she gets children with Stark as a last name. Yeah, he's a lot older than her, but it's probably no bigger of an age difference than Sansa and Jaime or Sansa and Tyrion. 

[Nanrad]

LF definitely overplayed his hand. 

I believe that Arya and Sansa were fighting because, as someone else mentioned, how would the sisters know where they are being watched and where they aren't being watched. I think Arya figured out after the Games of Faces that Sansa wasn't scheming and innocent of trying to overthrow Jon and wanting him to die. She pieced together that something was off about LF, but had no proof besides the letter which he wanted her to feel a certain way. She may have voiced these thoughts to Sansa after the fact who then reveled that LF is a schemer and manipulator, to which she also informed her of the shit LF pulled while they were together. Sansa then reveled that Bran could be able to help because he could "see" stuff. It just doesn't make any sene for it to be a game all of along if they were even arguing behind closed doors.

The reason LF wasn't able to play Arya and Sansa because he doesn't know Arya. But, he was afraid of her interfering with his influence and immediately wanted to divest of her. Anyone who knows Arya would know that she doesn't want to be Lady of Winterfell--she's not the day to day type at all and KNOWS that. Sansa knows that. But, LF underestimate Arya and overestimate his skills and quickly pulled the trigger, which led to his own undoing. IF anything, he should've simply appealed to her protectiveness of Jon, but sense, again, LF knows nothing about Arya, he built his scheme off of a fallacious assumption. I think he somewhat even assumed that Arya was like Cersei and resent being a girl and wanted power when Arya doesn't resent being a girl, but rather, the oppressive societal norms and doesn't want power at all. 

[madam magpie]

10 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

I don’t think there was a word of truth in Sansa’s conversations with Baelish regarding Jon and Daenerys—she was setting Littlefinger up, letting him think she was a helpless little girl and he was her relied upon confidant, helping her navigate being Lady of Winterfell.  Most importantly she made him think she was doubting Arya’s loyalty and that he was the only person she trusted.  Sansa manipulated Baelish like a queen because she does understand the power a beautiful woman can wield over a man attracted to her and she definitely understands using sex to distract from a hidden agenda. 

Regarding Baelish’s insinuation about Jon and his only being interested because he wants Daenerys, Sansa just thinks Jon’s better than to fall for a pretty face—she knows he has more depth then that.

Littlefinger’s fall from grace was gorgeous to behold, especially when all of his past plans were brought to light.  I loved that Sansa pointed out that Baelish’s pushing Lysa out of the moon door enabled him to take power of the Vale, and that Lysa’s threatening Sansa’s life didn’t even enter into his plans.  I also liked Sansa’s pointing out that Baelish tried to put a wedge between her and Arya, just like he was able to do with Catelyn and Lysa—a nice nod to their shared Tully history.  Best part:  My Stark sisters aren’t at each others throats and they both now know that they’ve both been through hell and are stronger for it.

There were other fabulous scenes:  Jamie stopping Euron Greyjoy from insulting Tyrion about being a dwarf, Jamie and Brienne’s brief conversation about loyalty and the truly awesome scene between Jon and Theon--yes, Theon did some horrible things, which he has more then paid for and he’s also done some heroic things, but in the end, he was still a part of the Stark wolf pack—just like Jon-- because they were all raised together by Ned.

I would love it if Jamie came to Winterfell and fell madly in love with Sansa—she deserves a good man and when Jamie’s away from his sister, he is a good guy.

Regarding the reveal about Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, I wonder when this whole secret relationship started.  Was it after he kidnapped her from the tournament or had they met before?  And I think Jon Snow is an inherently good person who lives his life by his own code and while he’s a natural born leader, he doesn’t seek out command, it just comes to him.  Once the reveal of his true parentage comes out, I don’t think he’ll be comfortable continuing to sleep with a woman he knows is his aunt and he really has zero interest in the Iron throne.

I love this post, especially the stuff about Sansa's chat with Littlefinger, and I'm reeeeeally hoping that next season, the Stark kids (Jon included) are a tight pack that trusts each other. I also hope they pull Dany into that or at least accept her on Jon's word.

But! I also am hoping that it's more Dany than Jon who is concerned about their relationship. The power/succession issue will surely come up, but like you, I don't see Jon as necessarily wanting the Iron Throne. It would be a nice turn from the obvious for the incest to bother Dany, and it fits with her personality thus far: she seems to be trying to reject the insulation of her family history and do things differently than the people who ruled before her. For all her burning people alive and demanding everyone bend the knee, she has a strong belief in freedom, choice, and mercy. I agree with Tyrion that she can build a better world, so reverting to incest and insulation should be hard for her, even if the circumstances were beyond her control. I also fully expect her to fall in love with Jon (I suspect she has already) and be pregnant, so the stakes will be a lot higher.

I still want Dany on the Iron Throne at the end, and I think it's possible. I also really like her and Jon together (incest aside) because Jon is one of the few men on the show who truly respects the autonomy, individuality, and value of the women he's close to: Sansa, Arya, Ygritte, and now Dany. He really treats them as equals and doesn't objectify them at all. I want that end for Dany...well, for all three of them, actually. (RIP Ygritte.)

Edited August 29, 2017 by madam magpie

[Nanrad]

On paper, Sansa and Gendry sound like a good match, but I just see them as two people who'd be civilized to one another more than anything else. I think it'd be a nice, respectful marriage--friends, but that's it.

Regarding someone who brought up Arya and Gendry, whether or not they get married (which I doubt Arya would marry), it wouldn't be a traditional marriage and Gendry is one of the few men who would respect Arya's agency in such a way and even admire that about her. Also, there is no way in hell Arya sees Gendry as a brother, especially the way she was looking at him while he had his shirt off. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Nanrad

[evilmindatwork]

53 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't see Arya marrying and I don't see her settling down. Honestly she seems more like she'd be a Kings Guard or Night Watcher. She and Gendry may end up together but I don't think that means they have to get married. What are their ages supposed to be? Because I always felt she was much younger than him, though she may not be. I saw more of a brother sister relationship between them. 

I want Sansa to marry someone nice who will make her laugh and appreciate her. I want it to be someone noble just because she was pretty much raised to do nothing else. She wouldn't know what to do with herself without a house to run. 

I just want both sisters to follow their own paths and I like that their paths are so different. I wouldn't want Arya to settle down because that's just not her. 

I honestly don't understand this. Lots of people who aren't traditional settle down with partners whether they're free spirits or not. Lyanna Mormont's mother, who was a warrior, like Arya, obviously got married and had children. Why is it so inconceivable for Arya once the wars are over? They could even be nomadic parents. I don't understand why it would be so inconceivable for Arya to have some semblance of happiness in her life. 

 

I've always thought of Gendry and Arya as marked out for each other because they've suffered through very similar experiences-- being hunted by people more powerful at vulnerable ages and hiding out together, etc. 

 

Not singling you out at all, but it's a consistent theme I've seen in the posts, and yours was just the most convenient one to quote... But those of you advocating for Gendry-Sansa over Gendry -Arya, why is that? A lot of it seems to be because Sansa is the more conventionally beautiful of the two?

Edited August 29, 2017 by evilmindatwork

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, evilmindatwork said:

Not singling you out at all, but it's a consistent theme I've seen in the posts, and yours was just the most convenient one to quote... But those of you advocating for Gendry-Sansa over Gendry -Arya, why is that? A lot of it seems to be because Sansa is the more conventionally beautiful of the two?

Nothing whatsoever to do with looks as far as I'm concerned, but everything to do with the characters.  Arya said in Season 1 that being the lady of a castle was "not me," whereas Sansa always longed for home and family.  In addition, I think Sansa will see it as somewhat her duty to settle down and further her family.  Arya wants to sail west of Westeros, she wants to be a warrior, she just said she did not want to conform to what is expected of women in their society, so I take her at her word that she sees her future quite other than what Sansa will probably want and choose.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Calamity Jane
Auto-correct does not like Westeros.

[evilmindatwork]

14 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Nothing whatsoever to do with looks as far as I'm concerned, but everything to do with the characters.  Arya said in Season 1 that being the lady of a castle was "not me," whereas Sansa always longed for home and family.  In addition, I think Sansa will see it as somewhat her duty to settle down and further her family.  Arya wants to sail west of Westerns, she wants to be a warrior, she just said she did not want to conform to what is expected of women in their society, so I take her at her word that she sees her future quite other than what Sansa will probably want and choose.  

I guess I just don't see it as an either-or proposition. They could do it together especially because Gendry doesn't have anything to keep him rooted in a place. Arya clearly had a crush on Gendry when they were traveling together. 

[Clanstarling]

I personally have no investment in romantic/marriage pairings of the main characters.  All that matters to me is that it makes sense within the context of the world their stories are set in. In that context, the Targaryeans have a history of brother/sister marriages, so aunt/nephew doesn't seem unacceptable within that world view, even if it is totally unacceptable within ours. 

I don't really care with whom or if the sisters pair up. Given Sansa's history with husbands, I'm not sure she'd want anyone. But of course, there are dynastic reasons why she would accept marriage. As for Arya, not all marriages involve settling into a hearth and home. I think we've seen plenty of examples of unusual partnerships in this world. 

Now, Tormund and Brianne, on the other hand. I definitely want them to have their bold and wild happily ever after, creating ginger giants.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Mabinogia]

33 minutes ago, evilmindatwork said:

I don't understand why it would be so inconceivable for Arya to have some semblance of happiness in her life. 

I don't understand why she has to be married to be happy. I never said anything about her not being happy, not being in love, not being with someone. I just said I don't imagine she needs to be married to have those things. She's lived on the fringes of society for so long now that I don't think she buys into marriage as a thing she must do.  If she wants to, fine, but I don't see why she would. She could live a long, happy life with the man she loves without marrying him. 

4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Given Sansa's history with husbands, I'm not sure she'd want anyone.

That is actually very true. I would love for Sansa to go all Queen Elizabeth I and rule without a man by her side. I want more than anything for Sansa to have complete control over her own life. 

Hey, maybe the sisters can be spinsters together. They could be the crazy direwolf ladies of Winterfell. lol

[CletusMusashi]

I like the idea of Cersei just waiting and waiting and waiting for the eastern mercenaries to show up. Eventually the scene will cut to Euron Greyjoy, just lying on a beach somewhere drinking. And then back to Cersei, still bitching.

[Slovenly Muse]

I think a Sansa/Gendry marriage is more likely, if it DOES come down to it. Mostly because marriage in this world is political, not typically romantic, and there are certain expectations (socially and politically) for a "wife" among the great houses that Sansa has been preparing for, and Arya avoiding at all cost (naturally). Plus, I like the symmetry that Sansa was engaged to a Baratheon back in season one, as a political move to unite their houses, and may end up living up to those expectations by finally marrying the only WORTHY Baratheon, and consolidating their power to defeat the Lannisters (bonus that Cersei tried to interfere with the planned Stark/Baratheon union by trying to marry Sansa to Joffrey, who was actually a Lannister, and then Tyrion. I would LOVE it if Sansa's political power-marriage was Cersei's undoing). Plus, Arya would benefit equally from having a weaponsmith as a brother-in-law or as a husband (I don't really see them as more than close friends... but then again, they haven't met up again as more mature young adults. Maybe their chemistry will have blossomed with puberty ;) But I'm totally open to the show convincing me either way!

2 hours ago, festivus said:

Wouldn't solid gold be pretty heavy? Pretty sure it's just gilded. But Cersei had the hand made for him and now he's covering up that piece of his Lannister past with a black glove, while wearing a black cape, on a black horse, almost like a Night's Watch ranger. Seemed like pretty obvious symbolism to me. 

As I recall, the solid gold hand was Cersei's idea, and although he never said anything, I got the impression that Jaime didn't like it, and found it cumbersome, heavy, and ostentatious, and would have preferred something more functional. I thought he was covering it up (as well as his usual armour) to reduce the chances of being recognized while travelling. The gold hand is a pretty unique feature!

 

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

The reason LF wasn't able to play Arya and Sansa because he doesn't know Arya. But, he was afraid of her interfering with his influence and immediately wanted to divest of her. Anyone who knows Arya would know that she doesn't want to be Lady of Winterfell--she's not the day to day type at all and KNOWS that. Sansa knows that.

Yes! This is totally it. The show hasn't given us much to go on, but I do think the sisters were genuinely experiencing conflict, as they had both endured trial-by-fire and become different people, and were trying to figure out who they were, what they wanted, and how they fit together. LF took advantage of that friction to try and create more profitable chaos, but he pushed too far when he tried to convince Sansa that Arya actually wanted to kill her for her position. There was just no way. That's likely when he ironically became the common enemy that brought them together! But with so few clues onscreen, that's only a guess. And the one big clue they DID give us, I can't make sense of: Why did Sansa send Brienne away? To protect Arya from Brienne? To protect Brienne from Arya? To protect herself from Brienne? To prevent Brienne from protecting Arya? Because Brienne just can't keep a secret and could have tipped off LF to their plan? Nothing REALLY explains it, whether you think Sansa was playing LF or was buying his BS.

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Why did Sansa send Brienne away? To protect Arya from Brienne? To protect Brienne from Arya? To protect herself from Brienne? To prevent Brienne from protecting Arya? Because Brienne just can't keep a secret and could have tipped off LF to their plan? Nothing REALLY explains it, whether you think Sansa was playing LF or was buying his BS.

I don't think the sisters were in cohoots when Sansa sent Brienne away. I felt from the start she sent Brienne away because she was afraid LF was concocting a plan to use Brienne against Arya, well, he practically spelled it out for her, and she either wasn't sure how that match would go, or she didn't want to put Brienne in a position where she had to defend one sister against another. I also think it means she didn't really expect Arya to kill her. 

I'm just glad she was smart enough to not send LF. God knows how he would have fucked things up at that meeting. 

[MrsR]

Sansa sent Brienne away because she had to stay in Winterfell. Someone had to go to KL, but Sansa was paranoid about what was going on, couldn't risk going away for  a month and come home to find out things had changed in her absence. Aray was giving her mixed signals and LF was pumping up the paranoia. 

It's like the person who is paranoid about losing their job feels they can't go on vacation because everyone will find out they can cope without them.

 

Paranoia, plain and simple.

[Mabinogia]

If she had left Arya and LF alone in Winterfell LF would have ended up dead but since it wouldn't have been "by royal decree" of a kind, Arya could have been tried for treason. No good would have come of Sansa leaving. Her choosing Brienne to be per proxy is what is interesting. 

[CletusMusashi]

I think that the only thing LF really got off on was proving to himself that he was smarter than other people. So after each pretend fight, Sana and Arya would wait about ninety seconds and then have an actual strategy session while he was off in a closet somewhere pleasuring himself.

In any event, the timing on Project Fingerectomy was perfect. For one thing, with the war escalating, he becomes even more dangerous a wild card to leep around than he already is. But, also, if you want to make sure that the northern lords will respect any and all Starks, this was pretty much the way to do it. Could LF have proven useful again? Yes? Could he betray them? Also yes. Might he turn out to be more of a benefit than a hindrance? Yes. But you know how to make him really useful? Bring him out while you've got a houseful of important nobles and show them what you do to rats up north!

How many seconds do you think it took after that scene for Baby Bear Mormont to start pestering Arya for an autograph?

Edited September 3, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[magpye29]

On 8/28/2017 at 0:28 AM, EyesGlazed said:

How utterly useless is Bran???

About as useful as Deanna Troi.  "I sense no deception, Captain."

[Calamity Jane]

9 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

I think that the only thing LF really got off on was proving to himself that he was smarter than other people. So aftereach pretend fight, Sana and Arya would wait about ninety seconds and then have an actual strategy session while he was off in a closet somewhere pleasuring himself.

In any event, the timing on Project Fingerectomy was perfect. For one thing, with the war escalating, he becomes even more dangerous a wild card to leep around than he already is. But, also, if you want to make sure that the northern lords will respect any and all Starks, this was pretty much the way to do it. Could LF have proven useful again? Yes? Could he betray them? Also yes. Might he turn out to be more of a benefit than a hindrance? Yes. But you know how to make him really useful? Bring him out while you've got a houseful of important nobles and show them what you do to rats up north!

How many seconds do you think it took after that scene for Baby Bear Mormont to start pestering Arya for an autograph?

Was Lyanna Mormont there?  I don't remember seeing her, but that would have been quite something for her to witness.  I thought she had gone back to Bear Island to train everyone over the age of 10 to fight the army of the dead.  

Sansa herself told Jon that anyone who trusted Littlefinger was an idiot, if I recall her words, so the use she made of him, as you pointed out, was probably the very best thing she could do.  He tried that you-and-me-on-the-throne-together ploy to cement her loyalty to him, but she gave clear indication that she wasn't picking up what he was putting down.  I sort of see the end of Littlefinger as the end of what the early seasons primarily focused on; now the fight is going to be mainly against the dead, with Lannister treachery and deceit part of that struggle, not the fight for the ugly throne.  Guess we'll see if I'm reading that right in about 18 months.  :-(

[CletusMusashi]

Even if Lyanna didn't see it, word spreads. I think those Ned Stark posters in her room are going to have to start sharing wall space.

[Lady S.]

Omg, here's Septon Maynard's diary, complete with a line about his bowel movement right after the wedding record.
 

[Slovenly Muse]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Sansa sent Brienne away because she had to stay in Winterfell. Someone had to go to KL, but Sansa was paranoid about what was going on, couldn't risk going away for  a month and come home to find out things had changed in her absence. Aray was giving her mixed signals and LF was pumping up the paranoia. 

I would totally have accepted that explanation, if that had been all there was to it. But they made such a point of having LF remind Sansa how Brienne was honour-bound to protect BOTH Stark sisters (and he obviously had an agenda in saying this), that it seemed Sansa's choice to send Brienne away HAD to be a response of some sort to LF's words. I wish it had been clearer exactly what the purpose of that response was, but, as others have pointed out, there are many possibilities. I guess it's up to each of us to decide what we want to believe, because I doubt the show is ever going to close this loop. (Personally, I'm leaning towards, there was no good reason, the writers just wanted Brienne down south for the big meeting and hoped "obscure motives" would be mistaken for "brilliant plan.")

[justawatcher]

Arya and Yara. That's your pairing. Two unconventional women sailing off for pirate mayhem and adventure.

[Nanrad]

4 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Nothing whatsoever to do with looks as far as I'm concerned, but everything to do with the characters.  Arya said in Season 1 that being the lady of a castle was "not me," whereas Sansa always longed for home and family.  In addition, I think Sansa will see it as somewhat her duty to settle down and further her family.  Arya wants to sail west of Westeros, she wants to be a warrior, she just said she did not want to conform to what is expected of women in their society, so I take her at her word that she sees her future quite other than what Sansa will probably want and choose.  

But what the other poster and I are saying is that marriage or not, just because Arya doesn't want to settle down doesn't mean she cannot have a partner who is accepting and accommodating of her unusual lifestyle. Do I think she'll get paired off? Not necessarily. But, her having a partner (not husband) doesn't automatically mean she's going to be a lady of the castle. Sure there may be someone else who comes along, BUT as of now,  she and Gendry had an incredibly close relationship "I can be your family" and she was attracted to him once upon a time. Especially because he has travelled with her and they were best friends as well, he'd be the best candidate for if Arya is to be paired off. 

 

Despite Sansa wanting to married in the beginning, I do see her as someone who has no wish to be married again. Furthermore, I find the conversation surrounding Sansa being paired off interesting now that the series will be wrapped up next season. Since season 6, Sansa was heavily paired with Jon so that they could rule Winterfell together, and then as season 7 heavily hinted at, and then confirmed the Jon/Dany pairing, Gendry started being considered as a serious suitor if he becomes legitimized. Although I see the potential necessity in Sansa being married, it is interesting how adamantly Sansa is being paired, which is most likely to solidify her being Lady of Winterfell. As mentioned, I don't think Sansa wants to get re-married so soon, if at all. I've entertained the idea of her wanting kids, but I'm not sure if she wants that anymore. Sansa just wants to be left alone, to enjoy her family, and to live her life as she pleases (running Winterfell???).

[Hava]

I've always hoped for a Sansa/Podrick pairing. I love Podrick to pieces. 

[Calamity Jane]

37 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

But what the other poster and I are saying is that marriage or not, just because Arya doesn't want to settle down doesn't mean she cannot have a partner who is accepting and accommodating of her unusual lifestyle. Do I think she'll get paired off? Not necessarily. But, her having a partner (not husband) doesn't automatically mean she's going to be a lady of the castle. Sure there may be someone else who comes along, BUT as of now,  she and Gendry had an incredibly close relationship "I can be your family" and she was attracted to him once upon a time. Especially because he has travelled with her and they were best friends as well, he'd be the best candidate for if Arya is to be paired off. 

 

Despite Sansa wanting to married in the beginning, I do see her as someone who has no wish to be married again. Furthermore, I find the conversation surrounding Sansa being paired off interesting now that the series will be wrapped up next season. Since season 6, Sansa was heavily paired with Jon so that they could rule Winterfell together, and then as season 7 heavily hinted at, and then confirmed the Jon/Dany pairing, Gendry started being considered as a serious suitor if he becomes legitimized. Although I see the potential necessity in Sansa being married, it is interesting how adamantly Sansa is being paired, which is most likely to solidify her being Lady of Winterfell. As mentioned, I don't think Sansa wants to get re-married so soon, if at all. I've entertained the idea of her wanting kids, but I'm not sure if she wants that anymore. Sansa just wants to be left alone, to enjoy her family, and to live her life as she pleases (running Winterfell???).

All valid points, and we will have to wait and see how it plays out for the two of them.  I mainly was trying to address the issue that somehow someone thought I - among others - was basing my assumptions about how they would each end up on their relative attractiveness, and that never even entered my mind.  Arya might well find someone to go adventuring with; Sansa may end up never re-marrying.  But those decisions will come out of their characters, not their looks, that's all.  

[Hecate7]

On 8/28/2017 at 5:31 PM, Star Aristille said:

Unless Cersei specifically picked the Mountain for Oberyn's opponent (I'm pretty sure Tywin picked him), I don't see how that's her fault.

We were actually shown the scene where Cersei picked him.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 8/28/2017 at 2:03 PM, Deanie87 said:

...But I have always found the more intimate character driven scenes to be what makes GoT so great.  And, for me, the Night King is just a cypher or plot device, to drive other character interactions.  So while I expect next season to be a lot of fight sequences and zombie dragon action, it won't be the same without all of the double dealing and behind the scenes manipulations.  I would love to watch Dany, Jon, Cersei, Yara/Theon and Sansa and all of their entourages try to manage and jostle each other trying to reach the bigger goal of wiping out the Night King and his army.

There's a great, great scene in Season 2 between Tyrion and Cersei, where they're talking about Cersei's children, how Joffrey is a sociopath and the younger two are sweet, Cersei is confiding in Tyrion and he is consoling her. It's some of the best acting in the series. And it shows such nuance in these two characters. How Cersei, even though she is a monster, still genuinely loves her children and on some level trusts Tyrion. And how he can be the bigger person and console her even though she's been so terrible to him.

 

On 8/28/2017 at 0:20 PM, ImpinAintEasy said:

I loved the Jon/Theon scene. Someone asked why it took Jon's absolution to snap Theon out of his Reek mindset. I believe it is because Jon is the closest person to Robb/Ned. Theon would have spent a lot of time with him growing up, more so than Sansa. So Jon telling him he was a Stark really gave him the ultimate feeling of forgiveness. I'm not sure it was ultimately what led him to stand up for himself and fight back, but the final shot of him kneeling in the sea and washing the blood from his face felt like a rebirth. Reek is finally gone, and Theon has returned. 

That was such beautiful imagery! So perfect, the idea of being reborn (Christian imagery but also that of the religion of the Drowned God). The fight was silly but I loved the aftermatj.

 

On 8/28/2017 at 11:33 PM, enoughcats said:

The look that Brienne had on her face as Jamie walked by her.  Her eyes were so sad.  

Was this the first time she'd seen him around his sister?  
As she was leaving the dragon pit and walking beside him,  again she owned the screen as she got his attention.   If there were a book, I'd slog through hundreds of pages to get more on her thoughts at that meeting. 

Brienne was at the Purple Wedding, and Cersei called her out on loving Jaime. Can't remember if Jaime and Cersei interacted at the PW.

 

6 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

There's just one problem, I don't think Arya is  trying to marry anybody, definitely not before nor after she slits Cersei's throat, which I so look forward to happening. I think she's said pretty much that she's nobody's lady and she's nobody's wife either. I think her dad said something to her in season one about getting married and she pretty much said, hell no, LOL. I don't see that changing.

When Ned Stark (lovingly, paternally) poo-poohed her visions of being a knight, etc. and said she would marry a lord and become the lady of a great house, she very simply said "that's not me" and walked away.