S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[iMonrey]

Quote

Here's an excellent look at "Behind the Scenes" at the Dragon Pit.  Really excellent. 

Towards the very end you can see a quick shot of Brienne of Tarth smoking a cigarette in the background. LOL

I want to circle back to Bronn, because I think something has been cut or left out regarding his current status. In The Spoils of War he is complaining to Jamie that he hasn't been rewarded with his castle yet (he suggests being given Highgarden). It's apparent he expects to be rewarded with being made Lord of something-or-other (much like Littlefinger was made Lord of Harrenhal). 

But at the start of Eastwatch, after rescuing Jamie he says this is where they part company, because he's not sticking around to see the dragons spit fire on Kings Landing. 

Yet in the same episode, he's back at the Red Keep arranging a meeting between Tyrion and Jamie. 

???

Then at the top of this episode, he's chuckling to Jamie he still can't get used to being called "Lord." 

I think Bronn actually was awarded some kind of title and castle and we just didn't see it. That would explain why he stuck around despite declaring his intention to part ways with Jamie and head as far away from Kings Landing as he could get.

[stillshimpy]

36 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Varys in the books is more than likely a Blackfyre loyalist.

We have no idea what either Lyanna or Rhaegar knew about was happening in the Kingdom.

We know that they knew enough to be secretly married.  We know that Rhaegar knew enough to leave his Kings Guard at the Tower of Joy.  We know Lyanna knew enough to understand that Robert would kill Jon if he understood who he was.  We know that Lyanna knew Ned well enough to exact a death bed promise from him.   

We know they weren't quite clueless enough to get away with the "who could have known" defense because they took enough precautions to suggest they had a good inkling and then pursued action to try and protect Lyanna from the rebellion.  They knew about the rebellion. 

Also, the idea that once the banners have been called...yeah, there's actually a lot of ways to walk that back.  It's called a truce which the show just referenced.   Ceasing hostilities is the way that is walked back.  

But mostly, Robert wouldn't have wanted Lyanna had he known she spurned him actively.  He might still have wanted to go to war, but he'd have been less likely to accomplish that if everyone was snickering behind their hands at his fit pique over being spurned.   Robert's rebellion doesn't get very far without everyone else and it gets nowhere without roasted and strangled Starks.  Plus, if the future King sets aside his wife in order to take your intended as his wife, in this story, you get a honking castle out of the deal at the very least.  At least he might have been hot-potatoed Harrenheap. 

I don't think anyone could blame Lyanna for not wanting to marry Robert because the books make it clear, he wasn't going to keep it at home once he tied that knot but she sure as hell would have to. 

But get on a ship and cross the narrow sea, or tell your dad before you get him killed, or run away.   She was young, but wow, way to swing from the heels on a catastrophic mistake. 

And there will never be another Stark heir for Winterfell because of what Lyanna did.  Jon is going to find out about all of this and frankly, it would be easier to think you were a product of rape than to know your parents were so selfish, they both got nearly all of their families murdered.  

But I think we're also just experiencing why it's kind of a weak story overall.  

There's no real way to excuse their behavior.  I admit, and it must be obvious, I am not a person who is swayed by the concept of romance.  But at sixteen I would have been because I saw things in more simplistic terms than I do now.  Ye olde "The heart wants what the heart wants" (and yeah, that's Woody Allen's justification for fucking his girlfriend's underage adopted daughter) is more understandable in a teenage girl.  It just doesn't make it any less heartless and dumb.  

My concern within the story is how much this is going to impact Jon who really ought to wear "Betray me!" sign on his back because that's got to be how he feels kind of a lot but in this episode he made it so clear:  He admired Ned Stark so much. 

And if someone won't tell you who you are for the entirety of your life and you find out after their death?  It's going to be really painful.   

I mean, maybe the show will play it as "Wow, my Uncle was amazing!" because truly, Ned sacrificed left and right for his family but they had Dany and Jon go to the bone zone without this knowledge for a reason.   So the "my dad is really my uncle...and I just fucked my aunt..." Poor Jon.  Just freaking poor Jon. 

I don't think it's going to help them to learn that Jon's parentage is so ridiculously complicated that half a kingdom died because of the relationship that produced him.  

And it isn't likely to help that it's the one thing that Ned was willing to lie about because that just as easily will indicate shame to Jon.  

The story has always set it up that Jon found it difficult to not have a name.  It's this story so, of course, he's about to find out how much worse it could be to have one. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[GraceK]

Illuminating interview. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-finale-director-no-romantic-jealousy-in-tyrions-reaction-to-jon-and-danys-boat-sex?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

[screamin]

20 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 

And there will never be another Stark heir for Winterfell because of what Lyanna did.  Jon is going to find out about all of this and frankly, it would be easier to think you were a product of rape than to know your parents were so selfish, they both got nearly all of their families murdered.  

 

If Sansa or Arya marry a man of lower class than themselves, IIRC it's been permissible for the man to agree to allow the children to bear his wife's name instead of his own (though I could be remembering wrong.)

Otherwise your post is awesome. But I fully expect the showrunner to brush off all the implications of it for Jon, alas. :(

[Happy Harpy]

This episode supported one of my fanwanks re: why no one mentioned Arya in 7x06.

The Hound went beyond the Wall with Gendry, Beric, Thoros and Jon. Yet, he didn't know that Arya was alive. So it's fairly sure that the subject didn't come up. 

Jon knew that Arya was alive. But he didn't know that any of the non-Starks knew. So why would he have mentioned it?

The non-Starks knew that she's Jon's sister. They knew that they all knew Arya. But  Gendry didn't know if she survived after he was taken, Beric and Thoros didn't know if she survived after she fled, the Hound didn't know if she survived after she left him to die. Some probably didn't want confirmation that she was dead. All of them probably thought it was a bad idea to destabilize their expedition leader by casually mentioning his very probably dead little sister, how a couple of them ended-up more or less permanently on her list or how they pissed in front of her and everything.

[Please insert Friends "they don't know that we know that they know" meme]

In other words, Arya was the elephant in the room.

Now, gimme all the Arya reunions in S8. GIMME.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[WebosFritos]

The snow falling on King's Landing was absolutely beautiful. And Eastwatch is definitely my favourite place ever. Those stairs look amazing. Too bad it was completely destroyed because it was a much better set than Castle Black ever was.

 

On 28/8/2017 at 7:35 AM, britesongs said:

Either way, seriously. Where the fuck has Ghost been? If the reason we haven't seen him is because of the CGI budget going to the dragons, why not at least a throwaway line about him being at the Wall or hanging out in the godswood at Winterfell keeping an eye on Bran?

 

On 28/8/2017 at 6:30 PM, PTVjones said:

1. Direwolves: Where is Ghost? He seemed to have vanished out of no where and no one mentions him. I feel like the last time I saw him was when Jon came back to life last season. I could be wrong but it just seems like... wouldn't Ghost have gone with John to Dragonstone or King's Landing... it just doesn't make any sense why he hasn't from a plot perspective. I mean... Ghost must be huge at this point. I've heard/read how CGI heavy and costly making the direwolves for the show but I personally think they overused the dragons this season and underused the direwolves. Who knows... maybe Ghost is chillin with Nymeria and convincing her to come back...

Ghost is at Winterfell. Sansa mentioned him in episode 5, I think. And he definitely needs to welcome Jon home. I want to see Dany's reaction to a magnificent white direwolf.

 

22 hours ago, herbz said:

Myrcella is probably more on Tywin than Tyrion- had Tywin not been so ruthless during the sack of King's Landing, Dorne wouldn't have harboured such hatred for the Lannisters in the first place (it is my unpopular opinion that Tywin is an overrated strategist- by operating in such underhanded fashion he created long-term enemies everywhere and by neglecting to raise and instruct his kids properly his precious legacy disintegrates in a flash). Tommen is entirely on Cersei, but she'll never admit that. Tyrion being in alliance with Ellaria Sand is something Cersei would've been justified in throwing at him (I feel like they should've made a bigger deal of this in Episode 1). 

I completely agree with you about Tywin being an overrated strategist. He was the one who sent the Mountain to ravage the Riverlands and then dared to complain about the men who were dying in his war.

 

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

That's the thing, poor Jon is set to be handed this information with absolutely no one to give him any context other than Bran and to put it mildly, his empathy machine seems broken at the moment. "You looked so beautiful, being married off to that sadistic rapist, I consider this a compliment now.  Hopefully, I won't feel the urge to compliment anyone again anytime soon."  

I'm hoping that Bran sharing this information with Sam means that Jon will have a better shoulder to cry on than his younger brother.

[screamin]

1 minute ago, Happy Harpy said:

This episode supported one of my fanwanks re: why no one mentioned Arya in 7x06.

The Hound went beyond the Wall with Gendry, Beric, Thoros and Jon. Yet, he didn't know that Arya was alive. So it's fairly sure that the subject didn't come up. 

Jon knew that Arya was alive. But he didn't know that any of the non-Starks knew. So why would he have mentioned it?

The non-Starks knew that she's Jon's sister. They knew that they all knew Arya. But  Gendry didn't know if she survived after he was taken, Beric and Thoros didn't know if she survived after she fled, the Hound didn't know if she survived after she left him to die. Some probably didn't want confirmation that she was dead. All of them probably thought it was a bad idea to destabilize their expedition leader by casually mentioning his very probably dead little sister,  how a couple of them ended-up more or less permanently on her list or how they pissed in front of her and everything.

[Please insert Friends "they don't know that we know that they know meme]

In other words, Arya was the elephant in the room.

Now, gimme all the Arya reunions in S8. GIMME.

Good point. Another one that I think no one has brought up yet is that the Hound didn't ask about Sansa...I think that tells us the showrunners have no interest in Sansa/Hound shipping.

[mac123x]

I liked that the part in that Behind the Scenes - The Dragon Pit video that showed how they did the zombie (has the internet given him a name yet?  Something like "Steve"?).  Practical makeup on a dude in a green screen suit so they could digitally paint out his missing bits. 

 

To me that's the best kind of special effect, when I don't even ask the question of "how did they do that?" until way later, if at all.

[nodorothyparker]

40 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I want to circle back to Bronn, because I think something has been cut or left out regarding his current status. In The Spoils of War he is complaining to Jamie that he hasn't been rewarded with his castle yet (he suggests being given Highgarden). It's apparent he expects to be rewarded with being made Lord of something-or-other (much like Littlefinger was made Lord of Harrenhal). 

But at the start of Eastwatch, after rescuing Jamie he says this is where they part company, because he's not sticking around to see the dragons spit fire on Kings Landing. 

Yet in the same episode, he's back at the Red Keep arranging a meeting between Tyrion and Jamie. 

???

Then at the top of this episode, he's chuckling to Jamie he still can't get used to being called "Lord." 

I think Bronn actually was awarded some kind of title and castle and we just didn't see it. That would explain why he stuck around despite declaring his intention to part ways with Jamie and head as far away from Kings Landing as he could get.

In that early Eastwatch scene they're talking about likelihood of an imminent siege of Kings Landing and preparing for it.  That's where Bronn says nope, no thanks, won't be sticking around to be roasted within the city walls if it comes to that.  But it hasn't come to that yet, so he probably figures there's still money to be made in the meantime..

I found the lord thing kind of out of nowhere too considering there was no elaboration on it.  Maybe it's just an honorific in lieu of anything else?  It's interesting that it came up in the same episode that saw Tyrion remark to Podric that he's not technically lord of anything anymore and Jaime basically abandon his title since he surely won't be keeping it with Cersei already accusing him of treason for not doing her bidding.  It sucks to be Bronn after having served the brothers consecutively for seven seasons that they're probably all in the same boat now.  He was weirdly defensive to Tyrion that he's been doing all right for himself when we know he was still complaining about waiting for his payday just a couple of episodes ago.

[stillshimpy]

27 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

I'm hoping that Bran sharing this information with Sam means that Jon will have a better shoulder to cry on than his younger brother.

 

Unfortunately, Dany roasted Sam's family alive...so the comfort about certain implications of the revelation might not be there.   Sam's probably not going to be all "Wooooo....you're a Targaryen?" after he gets that word.  

ETA:  Part of his family.  The part that would have produced Tarly heirs, unfortunately.  Maybe with the wall down at least all oaths to it are moot because ...poor Sam. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Happy Harpy]

33 minutes ago, screamin said:

Good point. Another one that I think no one has brought up yet is that the Hound didn't ask about Sansa...I think that tells us the showrunners have no interest in Sansa/Hound shipping.

It sure looks like it. Last week's "it's gingers I hate"...no dream-or-not kiss, Sansa/Brienne not mentioning the Hound in S6 when talking about Arya, Rory McCann who is freaking fantastic but much older than Book!Hound  and not at all the "bishonen with a scar" type  etc. I've always thought that if Sansa/The Hound was in the cards, they wouldn't have eliminated almost all the romantic undertones of their relationship.

OTOH super-sized or not there are only six episodes left, and  there are only four male characters who Sansa has a personal connection (onscreen) with: Tyrion, the Hound, Theon and Pod*. "Rushed" Jon and Dany learned to know each other and had lots of scenes and screentime together, and once again they're the central characters. Most of the other character moments this season were between people who already knew each other.  Imo, the last thing that Sansa would want is another husband, and not getting one would be a definite rupture with her childhood self who only saw her future through a man. But if there is a love story or an alliance in store for her, although my bet is Tyrion, I finally can't eliminate the Hound because of their previous history.

*If Jon has a problem with sleeping with his unknown instant! blood aunt who's his age, I can't see him being able of falling in love with a girl whom he thought of as his sister for his whole life. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[ulkis]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Best name EVER! Because it rhymes.

But really, so much of this shitstorm could have been avoided if these two assholes had announced their marriage, the birth of their child and told anyone who didn't like the fact he left his first wife to go fuck themselves. Why did it all have to be a big bloody secret?  

Yeah. I think it makes more sense to hide if Rhaegar was still married legally to Elia, and he was trying to take Lyanna as a second wife, but other wise, hiding doesn't seem to make much sense.

Which reminds me, if Lyanna was a co-wife, Jon's claim would be muddled by possible bastardy so then who has the best claim to the Iron Throne wouldn't be so clear cut, but she wasn't a co-wife, so it makes me think Dany is definitely going to have a problem with his having a better claim than her. But who knows. I could easily see the writers just making it clear that Jon has a definitely claim and not wanting to deal with fans saying well he doesn't really have a claim because Rhaegar was committing bigamy.

While I think the writers haven't made the greatest choices in their adaptation, I think they're decent writers, but with 6 episodes left I just don't see how they can get much in.

Edited August 29, 2017 by ulkis

[Francie]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

I liked that the part in that Behind the Scenes - The Dragon Pit video that showed how they did the zombie (has the internet given him a name yet?  Something like "Steve"?).  Practical makeup on a dude in a green screen suit so they could digitally paint out his missing bits. 

 

The 6-year-old in me want so name him Bob because he had no legs at the end. Or Matt, since he had no legs, only arm and was basically just lying on the ground. 

Or Keith.  Just because. 

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Illuminating interview. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-finale-director-no-romantic-jealousy-in-tyrions-reaction-to-jon-and-danys-boat-sex?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

Thanks for posting. I had no idea what Peter Dinklage was going for in that scene so this was insightful so was the explanation of Sansa and Arya's hot mess of a story.

Edited August 29, 2017 by SimoneS

[Nmissi]

I'm looking for reasons to excuse Lyanna and  Rhaegar. What if there's some sort of reason why the annulment had to be done in Dorne? Legally speaking, that is. Dorne has no stigma on bastards, maybe by divorcing/annulling there, he would be able to keep the children legitimate? Perhaps Elia wanted out of the marriage as well, for some reason? And maybe Lyanna left home to avoid the marriage to Robert and they met along the way, and fell in love? I'm grasping at straws, I know, but I really, really don't want to hate Jon's parents. I have always wondered why the belief is that she was kidnapped; and since I hate Baelish I have always wondered if he perhaps saw them together and gave the Starks word. Recasting an elopement as an abduction seems right up his alley. Or maybe Lyanna sent a Raven and someone intercepted it? 

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Thanks for posting. I had no idea what Peter Dinklage was going for in that scene so this was insightful so was the explanation of Sansa and Arya's hot mess of a story.

No problem!' I had actual real anxiety over that scene, worried about Tyrion betraying them. My heart is a little more at ease. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Illuminating interview. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/game-of-thrones-finale-director-no-romantic-jealousy-in-tyrions-reaction-to-jon-and-danys-boat-sex?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

What this tells me is that even the director isn't sure what was going on and had to make his own interpretations.

[Nanrad]

4 hours ago, MadMouse said:

"Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain"

 

Both Brandon and Robert were giant hypocritical assholes, who screwed their way across the Kingdom. But the thought of poor innocent Lyanna doing something even remotely similar, madness I tell you. Lyanna might have been stupid and impulsive but she was braver than 99% of the characters in the story.

Ehh...pre-marital sex is very different from dipping off and saying fuck my responsibilities as you marry someone else. I'm not condoning their behavior, but Margaery fucked around without neglecting her responsibilities. The comparison is of two unlike things.

[TigerLynx]

The story made more sense to me when Lyanna was an unwilling kidnap/rape victim.  Her father and brother go to the Mad King to complain, and end up murdered.  Then the Mad King wants Ned and Robert killed to.  At that point, there are several reasons for a rebellion.  The Starks and their allies want justice, there will be other families who see an opportunity to grasp power, some will fight out of loyalty, some will fight out of fear of what the insane lunatic on the Iron Throne will do next if he is left in power.  Rhaegar could have kidnapped Lyanna, divorced his wife, and forced Lyanna to marry him.  Ned would still want to protect the secret of who Jon's parents really were.

[Hecate7]

On 8/27/2017 at 10:58 PM, Pogojoco said:

She is right, I agree. 

Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne (who hate them. It is known.) 

Tyrion killed Tywin- Cersei was totally right when she said no one would've tried this stuff with Tywin still in charge. No one lives forever, of course, but one does live longer if they don't take a crossbow bolt to the bowels. 

But in what way is anyone besides Cersei and Tommen responsible for Tommen?

[TigerLynx]

Tyrion wouldn't have killed Tywin if Tywin hadn't - insert long lists of years of abuse by Tywin ending with Tywin setting Tyrion up to be framed for murder and executed.

I love the Dragons.  The arrival of the Dragons in Kings Landing was great, but the Dragon destroying the wall was the best scene ever.

I liked Tyrion and Bron's reunion.  They will be snarking at each other to the very end.  Brienne telling the Hound about Arya was funny to.

This may sound strange, but the Night King has beautiful eyes.

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

We know that they knew enough to be secretly married.  We know that Rhaegar knew enough to leave his Kings Guard at the Tower of Joy.  We know Lyanna knew enough to understand that Robert would kill Jon if he understood who he was.  We know that Lyanna knew Ned well enough to exact a death bed promise from him.   

We know they weren't quite clueless enough to get away with the "who could have known" defense because they took enough precautions to suggest they had a good inkling and then pursued action to try and protect Lyanna from the rebellion.  They knew about the rebellion. 

Also, the idea that once the banners have been called...yeah, there's actually a lot of ways to walk that back.  It's called a truce which the show just referenced.   Ceasing hostilities is the way that is walked back.  

But mostly, Robert wouldn't have wanted Lyanna had he known she spurned him actively.  He might still have wanted to go to war, but he'd have been less likely to accomplish that if everyone was snickering behind their hands at his fit pique over being spurned.   Robert's rebellion doesn't get very far without everyone else and it gets nowhere without roasted and strangled Starks.  Plus, if the future King sets aside his wife in order to take your intended as his wife, in this story, you get a honking castle out of the deal at the very least.  At least he might have been hot-potatoed Harrenheap. 

I don't think anyone could blame Lyanna for not wanting to marry Robert because the books make it clear, he wasn't going to keep it at home once he tied that knot but she sure as hell would have to. 

But get on a ship and cross the narrow sea, or tell your dad before you get him killed, or run away.   She was young, but wow, way to swing from the heels on a catastrophic mistake. 

And there will never be another Stark heir for Winterfell because of what Lyanna did.  Jon is going to find out about all of this and frankly, it would be easier to think you were a product of rape than to know your parents were so selfish, they both got nearly all of their families murdered.  

But I think we're also just experiencing why it's kind of a weak story overall.  

There's no real way to excuse their behavior.  I admit, and it must be obvious, I am not a person who is swayed by the concept of romance.  But at sixteen I would have been because I saw things in more simplistic terms than I do now.  Ye olde "The heart wants what the heart wants" (and yeah, that's Woody Allen's justification for fucking his girlfriend's underage adopted daughter) is more understandable in a teenage girl.  It just doesn't make it any less heartless and dumb.  

My concern within the story is how much this is going to impact Jon who really ought to wear "Betray me!" sign on his back because that's got to be how he feels kind of a lot but in this episode he made it so clear:  He admired Ned Stark so much. 

And if someone won't tell you who you are for the entirety of your life and you find out after their death?  It's going to be really painful.   

I mean, maybe the show will play it as "Wow, my Uncle was amazing!" because truly, Ned sacrificed left and right for his family but they had Dany and Jon go to the bone zone without this knowledge for a reason.   So the "my dad is really my uncle...and I just fucked my aunt..." Poor Jon.  Just freaking poor Jon. 

I don't think it's going to help them to learn that Jon's parentage is so ridiculously complicated that half a kingdom died because of the relationship that produced him.  

And it isn't likely to help that it's the one thing that Ned was willing to lie about because that just as easily will indicate shame to Jon.  

The story has always set it up that Jon found it difficult to not have a name.  It's this story so, of course, he's about to find out how much worse it could be to have one. 

Maybe it's because I don't overthink Game of Thrones, but depending on how Jon finds out about his true parentage (and how public that information is made), I can't see how falling back on Rhaegar's and Lyanna's roles in tearing apart the kingdom is going to matter now.  

Everybody already knows they were at the bottom of the war, the fact that they were in love and got married isn't going to change the fact that Robert rebelled and people died. Jon is innocent of all that. He was a freaking baby and his mother wanted him protected. Ned did that and I think Jon will understand why his uncle/surrogate father did what he did.

I think the kind of man Jon is and all that he has accomplished speak for themselves. He is a child of the north and Stark blood runs through his veins. I think the tension is going to stem from the fact that Jon is a royal heir, has a better claim to the IT than Dany, and is way above Sansa in station. (That last part gives me a happy because she thinks highly of her pedigree and what a joke that her bastard half-brother is really her royal first cousin.)

Anyway, my impression from the BTS comments is that place in procession will trump sex with aunt as the big sticking point. Either way I'm good with waiting for the final season to see how this is dealt with.  Still, my personal preference is for Jon and Dany to work through their issues, be allies, avenge Viserion and annihilate the WWs before kicking Cersei's ass to kingdom come.

Edited August 30, 2017 by taurusrose

[tennisgurl]

You know, maybe Rhaegar was lucky that Robert killed him on the battlefield. God knows what Oberyn would have done to him if everything he pulled on poor Elia came out. 

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

Ehh...pre-marital sex is very different from dipping off and saying fuck my responsibilities as you marry someone else. I'm not condoning their behavior, but Margaery fucked around without neglecting her responsibilities. The comparison is of two unlike things.

Not for noble women it isn't. And what did even the hint of Margaery not being a virgin get her? Locked up.

[Pogojoco]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

But in what way is anyone besides Cersei and Tommen responsible for Tommen?

Just from Cersei's POV- no one would've tried any of this underhanded powerplay stuff if Tywin was still around. I'm sure Cersei considered the war won and Tywin responsible for the victory. I'm not saying it's correct or she's not responsible for her own mess, but people did mess with them a heck of a lot less when they were afraid of Tywin Lannister. 

[YaddaYadda]

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, maybe Rhaegar was lucky that Robert killed him on the battlefield. God knows what Oberyn would have done to him if everything he pulled on poor Elia came out. 

Elia was a Martell. I hate this idea that she was a meek, passive person because her health was frail. We have met enough Martells to know that they live by their House's words, why would she be different? 

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. The women in that family take nothing lying down and they don't let anything limit them. That's how I see her at least.

[Pogojoco]

2 hours ago, Nmissi said:

I'm looking for reasons to excuse Lyanna and  Rhaegar. What if there's some sort of reason why the annulment had to be done in Dorne? Legally speaking, that is. Dorne has no stigma on bastards, maybe by divorcing/annulling there, he would be able to keep the children legitimate? Perhaps Elia wanted out of the marriage as well, for some reason? And maybe Lyanna left home to avoid the marriage to Robert and they met along the way, and fell in love? I'm grasping at straws, I know, but I really, really don't want to hate Jon's parents. I have always wondered why the belief is that she was kidnapped; and since I hate Baelish I have always wondered if he perhaps saw them together and gave the Starks word. Recasting an elopement as an abduction seems right up his alley. Or maybe Lyanna sent a Raven and someone intercepted it? 

We know, from books and show, next to nothing about after Harrenhall to Brandon Stark riding south to call out Rhaeger for stealing his sister. There is a whole chunk of story missing. I wonder if Lyanna and Rhaeger actually did send ravens, but they were waylaid. Aerys was massively paranoid- I have read things that suggest Aerys was seriously paranoid that Rhaeger was trying to depose him and that Rhaeger was seeking the help of various other lords to make it happen. Aerys getting wind of it, sabotaging the ravens to Winterfell and turning major houses against Rhaeger is a good way to prevent this. Aerys might've also been interested in removing Lord Rickard Stark and Lord Arryn if he saw it as a conspiracy. Also, look up "Southorn ambitions" theory. Lord Rickard was making very un-Stark-like power moves with his kids' marriages. Starks usually marry northern houses- Rickard engaged Brandon to Catelyn Tully of Riverrun and Lyanna to Robert Baratheon of Storm's End.  Aerys would notice. 

There is a pretty strong suggestion that Rhaeger and Lyanna went to Dorne to hide out- possibly to hide from his father. 

Perhaps Elia was on board with Lyanna (I suspect Rhaeger takes Lyanna on as a second wife in the books, as Targs are wont to do.) It might be why they are in Dorne and the Dornish don't seem to be looking for them. The Dornish are also more free with these things.  If he's obsessed with the dragon having three heads, why de-legitimize two of the dragon heads? Again, there is nothing to say that any of this is true, but people have speculated. I think there is more to it than "Rhaeger and Lyanna just ran away and didn't see/care about any consequences." 

 

Back to the episode- I do very much wish the actor playing Rhaeger had a different wig. I don't know why, but this show can do everything visual except fake hair. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Pogojoco

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Back to the episode- I do very much wish the actor playing Rhaeger had a different wig. I don't know why, but this show can do everything visual except fake hair. 

The wig was awful and the clothes were very ugly. They recycled Viserys's wig and left it at that. Farfaraway posted stills for the episode and while the details were interesting with the belt having dragons, the sword having a dragon's head, he looked like they put him in a potato sack. And Lyanna zero direwolves on her dress that I saw. The belt she wore and that thing around her neck were leaves. I don't know if that's some kind of a nod to the "Maiden of the Tree", I just thought it was weird that her House sigil was nowhere in sight. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

The other thing about that is the Targaryens have been practicing incest for hundreds of years (I'm being kind, I know that it is supposed to be thousands) but the Egyptians are the only real world parallel and good grief, you do not want to delve too deeply into what that yielded.  One of the last pharaohs from the "woooo...more incest....we think it makes us godly!" line had, and I'm not shitting you, a club foot, a cleft palate and a curved spine (as well as some incidental madness).  

From what was described with the Targaryens, it's a miracle they weren't just spawning cuttlefish by the end of that crap and Dany is very much from the "Oh good, at least it wasn't a cuttlefish" side of the Targs.  

GRRM sucks at research.  Tryion and his circus antics in the first book are not the only proof of that, he obviously did not look very deeply into what the incestuous practices in the royal Egypt line yielded but they are the reason that incest was so frowned on when he decided to go down this path.  

Thank goodness there are only six episode left and enough action going on that they can't dwell on this but the behind the scenes stuff pretty clearly indicates that the characters involved are unlikely to celebrate this.  

Also, even non-emotive Bran looked like he was in the past, trying not to blow spectral chunks while watching that.  

If Sansa had done what Lyanna did, people would have lost their minds to fury.  That's the part that struck me: Lyanna Stark is a combination of Sansa and Arya.  Not "like Arya" she's just as much like Sansa.  

A dream of pretty romance got her family killed. 

I believe GRRM knows enough about incest to know that. It just doesn't matter to him because the Targaryens are supposed to have magical genetics. Kinda like how every Baratheon has black hair and blue eyes.

[Pogojoco]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

Cersei was never going to join Dany and Jon's battle so concealing the wildfire, which is her own WMD, makes sense.  Just like Dany didn't reveal the fact that one of her dragons had already been slain, which might have further convinced Cersei (if she were rationale) just how great the threat of the White Walkers are.

Tyrion knows about it, though. He used some of Aerys' stash at Blackwater and he knew Cersei was making a bunch and then used some to blow the Sept. But not all of it, because she'd have levelled the city. Tyrion knows it's general location or might be able to guess it. Steal it. Kidnap the pyromancer to make it. Someone in Essos probably knows how to make it. I dunno. Improvise. 

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, blackwing said:

It's been a while since I read the books.  I did recently within the last year or so read "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" which was about Sir Duncan and his squire named Egg, who turned out to really be Aegon Targaryen.  Someone please kindly remind me who he is in the house.  I'm assuming he's Daenerys' grandfather or great-grandfather?

If Jon's real name is Aegon Targaryen and he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he just slept with his hot aunt.  Although I guess this is a world in which brother and sister sleep with each other, so maybe it's not as icky as I had first thought when I was watching.

Someone also kindly remind me, since it's been years since I read the latest book, I vaguely remember that there was a character named Aegon that claimed to be the son of Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.  I think he was presumed dead but is now an adult?  It seems like this character is absent from the show, at least for now?

Egg is Aegon V also called Aegon the Unlikely. He's the great-grandfather of Rhaegar, Robert, Renly, Viserys, Stannis and Daenerys. And the great-great grandfather of Jon, Shireen and Robert's bastards. Egg is also Maester Aemon Targaryen's younger brother. 

 

The only "Aegon" we meet in the books is Varys' pick for the throne(not Daenerys or Viserys) and according to Varys and his allies, also the firstborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen. But there are hints that he's really part of the Blackfyre(although he doesn't know it) line which is legitimized bastard line of Targaryens. So "Aegon" would be a fusion of Henry Tudor and Perkin Warbeck.  

Given what we've seen, the show has given Aegon's role as the main opposition to Daenerys on the mainland to Cersei explaining why certain parts are so clunky.

[Frost]

28 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Farfaraway posted stills for the episode

Rhaegar was supposed to be the most beautiful man in Westeros?  Forget the wig, he has a big nose and a weak chin.  Not that he's hideous by any means, but jeez.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

lia was a Martell. I hate this idea that she was a meek, passive person because her health was frail.

I dont know if most people think that Eli was meek and passive, but I certainly never thought that. I just meant that Oberyn would be super pissed off at how his sister was treated, and we know he was super protective of her. Even though the few times people have spoken of Eli (mostly Oberyn) they have talked about how sweet and gentle and motherly she was, I assume she had some fire in her, being a Martel. We just have never gotten much of a picture of who she was when she was alive, beyond being a Tragic Victim. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

On a shallow note, I guess everyone expected Rhaegar to be more handsome in appearance because of the way he was rendered in the artwork. But I did chuckle at that fact that Rhaegar was just an older version of Viserys looks wise. It shouldn't be so surprising knowing the Targaryens were generally inbred.  We are also put off because show Danaerys is quite beautiful. I wonder what Danaerys would have looked like if the show runners were more dedicated to the book material.

[mac123x]

From that interview with the director:

I feel like what probably happened is that Bran got involved and he was able to answer a lot of questions and fill in a lot of gaps the both of them had, and later when we see him in the scene with Littlefinger, all the stuff that Bran is saying in that scene is not news to Sansa and Arya. So clearly they’ve been apprised of all this stuff before. But exactly when that happened is the question.

Like how early did they know all this and how early did they decide to turn the tables on Littlefinger? That’s a bit of a question. But I feel that there was a journey for both of those characters through all of that.

Thanks for clearing that up, said no one.  Really?  The fucking director doesn't know?  How was he able to provide direction to the actors?  I guess he didn't, because I rewatched the Sansa / Littlefinger scene from this episode and Sophie Turner gave no hint, verbal or non-verbal, that she was on to him. 

 

The only thing I could retroactively call Sansa's "aha" moment was when Petyr asked her what Sansa's death would get Arya.  She briefly made eye contact with him when she said "Lady of Winterfell".  Maybe that was her "aha, he's fucking with us" realization, but it just as easily could be interpreted as "aha, that's what Arya wants!" stupidity.

[Pogojoco]

Rhaeger is expected to be beautiful because even Cersei thinks he's the most beautiful man ever. 

From Chap 24 of Feast

Quote

She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar. 

....

When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed. Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. 

There is also a lot about Tommen and kittens in that chapter. Ser Pounce forever! 

[SimoneS]

On 8/29/2017 at 7:51 AM, Macbeth said:

The whole "He's not a Bastard" idea really pisses me off.  It comes off as standard soap opera trope.  And GOT is all about breaking tropes. 

I see this statement all the time, but as an avid sci fantasy reader, I disagree. Yes, GRRM uses excessive violence and sex with tons of supporting characters to distract, but the whole book is full of every sci fantasy trope since LOTR. A young man (or occasionally woman) with a humble/mysterious background/power embarks on a journey and experiences trauma that causes him to grow up, usually the death of his father or a father figure is a major event. On this journey, he accumulates friends and companions, several of whom are tragically killed as they mentor and/or protect him. He also somehow ends up with magical weapon(s) to defeat this enemy. By the end of the book, our protagonist discovers that he is really the heir to a throne/kingdom or immense power that he must use wisely to protect a people/country/world. Of course, he ends up with the woman he loves. She often turns out not to be his initial love who dies or unsuitable for his dangerous life, but rather his stalwart brave companion who he met on his journey. She might be a princess in disguise or have a power . This is basically the plot of every single sci fantasy series from LOTR to Dune to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. Even GRRM's telling the story of the two protagonists, Jon and Dany, separately only for them to pair up later on in the series is a familiar trope. 

I am not saying GoT is not entertaining story, it is, as is the tv adaptation, what I am saying that it is immensely predictable. So Jon not being a bastard and really being the legitimate son of a prince is to be expected. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by SimoneS

[screamin]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I'm not so sure he did.  My likeliest wildcard in the whole scenario is Varys -- who also happens to be fairly uselessly hanging around on the show.

Not sure even that works. According to what we know from book and show, Rhaegar met with Lyanna around Harrenhal when she was supposed to be on her way to Brandon's wedding.  Rhaegar meets with her - how?  Did Lyanna bolt from her escorts on horseback? Did he and his Kingsguard disguise themselves as bandits and pretend to kidnap her, but were recognized? Or did Rhaegar and his KG just openly walk up to her, and she joined them willingly, and the escorts made up the story about the abduction because they were too cowardly to admit to Rickard they let her go with the prince without a fight? Whatever happened, Brandon soon after heard about Lyanna being supposedly abducted by Rhaegar while he was traveling to Riverrun himself. He apparently lost Rhaegar's trail, so he posts off to KL, where he thinks Rhaegar is going - a journey of many days - days during which he would have many chances to send ravens to his father spreading HIS version of what happened.

Meantime, Rhaegar and Lyanna travel ALL the way to Dorne to get married - which is an even longer ride than to KL. Why so far? Who knows. But that's a LOT of time for letting a false rumor spread unchecked. Hell, by the time they arrive at Dorne Brandon might already be arriving at KL. Rhaegar and Lyanna get married - as per the show by the High Septon/Pope analog himself, probably because he's the only one with the authority to grant an annulment (show) or dispensation for polygamous marriage (which hadn't happened for many years even among Targaryens). 

Now, here's the moment Rhaegar should have made sure everyone in Westeros knew what really happened, as well as getting himself up to date on everything that had happened since he fled with Lyanna. He's wedded and bedded his new wife - broadcasting this fact with a flock of ravens to every major Westerosi stead will make certain that the marriage and consummation is public knowledge and can't be undone. He also ought to remain in contact to make the apologies and offers of restitution by raven that he WILL eventually have to make in person. Does he do this? 

What we hear he does is go off to the Tower of Joy with Lyanna. He stays there while Brandon is imprisoned in KL, while Rickard is called down to KL to answer for his son's behavior, while Rickard arrives at KL and is burned to death at his trial, while Aerys demands that Robert and Jon be beheaded, while Arryn raises his banners and Robert's Rebellion starts, while  Aerys gets Elia and her kids from Dragonstone as hostages, while Ned makes his way back north and calls his own banners, while several battles were fought - how many months was that? We know that the Tower of Joy has some way to get information - the KG know about Robert's usurpation when Ned got there. We know that the seat of the Daynes was nearby the tower. But somehow Rhaegar NEVER manages to communicate from there the fact of his marriage to anyone - much less send the messages of apology and offers of restitution he owes everyone he's offended with his actions.

Now MAYBE Varys has enough influence over the High Septon to keep him from talking about a marriage even to prevent a war. And MAYBE Rhaegar did order some ravens sent to advise people of what he had done, and Varys had someone at the Daynes' seat intercept them.  But that doesn't absolve Rhaegar of the obligation to follow up on those messages from Dorne, from the North, from Dragonstone, from the Vale and every other place he owes communication to. IMO, the only way to explain how he could be unaware of the hell the country was falling into was to deliberately cut himself off from it. So from where I'm standing, it looks to me like he kept his marriage secret or he made such a feeble effort at spreading the word that it amounts to the same thing.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think Rhaegar had more of the family insanity than he ever let on, and it manifested itself as a megalomaniac certainty that what he wanted MUST be certain to succeed. I can't imagine how else he could have acted as carelessly as he did.

[Nanrad]

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

The story made more sense to me when Lyanna was an unwilling kidnap/rape victim.  Her father and brother go to the Mad King to complain, and end up murdered.  Then the Mad King wants Ned and Robert killed to.  At that point, there are several reasons for a rebellion.  The Starks and their allies want justice, there will be other families who see an opportunity to grasp power, some will fight out of loyalty, some will fight out of fear of what the insane lunatic on the Iron Throne will do next if he is left in power.  Rhaegar could have kidnapped Lyanna, divorced his wife, and forced Lyanna to marry him.  Ned would still want to protect the secret of who Jon's parents really were.

It made sense from the other characters and OUR perspectives. It's fucked up from theirs because either they didn't think to think about the long term ramifications of their actions or didn't care. 

2 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Not for noble women it isn't. And what did even the hint of Margaery not being a virgin get her? Locked up.

Only because Cersei was being a bitch--hell, didn't the men get locked up as well? That planned backfired majorly. Regardless, her running off and marrying another dude isn't the same as pre-marital sex based off of your comparison. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Emilia's wig. That thing didn't move when she was riding a dragon and it didn't have a single hair out of place having sex. Sure they can afford something better than that helmet they pass as Dany's hair.

I hate that wig,but I still think it's better than that hideous blonde cap Cersei has been sporting all season. I mean wtf? Dany's hair seems to gain a new braid every episode, but Cersei's hair hasn't grown at all? I think either the Mountain or Qyburn have been giving her haircuts!

Edited August 30, 2017 by hypnotoad

[Blonde Gator]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion only agreed to the use of wildfire in the blackwater for 2 reasons:

1. To stop his sister from using it

2. He was able to deploy it in a way that it wasn't any dangr to any of his men.

As for who else knows, the hound and Jorah, 

He was doing more than talking shit to Tyrion at that point. That being said I'd put it more on Dany and her team than Jon.

How does Jorah know about the Wildfire in King's Landing?  He's been exiled in Essos for years and years before (show) returning to the Citadel.

[Blonde Gator]

9 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

I do not think Tyrion knows Qyburn can produce wyldfire.  For all he knows some was used in battle of Blackwater and the rest was used by CErsei to blow up the High Septor.

 

ETA: Wyldfire is going to be Cersei's defense vs WW should Jon and DAny lose.  Lure all the WW into KL and set the whole city in green fire :P

Tyrion actually talked to the pyromancers in Season 2, the "Harrenhall" episode.   He instructed them to make more wildfire.  It wasn't just a store of old wildfire.  I don't know why the pyromancers wouldn't still be there, merrily making more and more, that is their one an donly job.  I am sure Qyburn knows about the wildfire and the pyromancers, he is Cersei's Hand, and who else would have set up the explosion in the Sept last season?  Tyrion knows Qyburn knows, how could the new hand not know what the old Hand knows?

Tyrion's problem is that he doesn't have any pyromancers.  The only ones he knows about are in the Red Keep, if they're still alive.  But it's a Valyrian art, and there are plenty of remnants of the Valyrian empire....if he only asks the question of the right person...."where can I get wildfire?".

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Not for noble women it isn't. And what did even the hint of Margaery not being a virgin get her? Locked up.

I'm sorry  but  you don't  get to claim woman's rights if you abandon your family for a handsome prince that you barely knew for a day.

[Blonde Gator]

9 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Doesn't everyone who survived the Battle of Blackwater know about wildfire?  Certainly Bronn, Davos and the Hound know about it, and Jaimie told Brienne about the caches of wildfire that Aerys had placed around King's Landing.  Or are you asking who knows how much, if any, is left?

As for using wildfire against the Army of the Dead, some poster on TWoP who went by the name of Constantinople mentioned the possibility back in Season 2.  And I doubt he was the first.

Everyone knows what wildfire is, but my question is, who knows there is much more, either hidden under the Red Keep (and the rest of KL, as we know the Mad King had laid careful plans to burn it all down), or that it's likely the pyromancers still are still fabricating and stockpiling wildfire, as they were during Tyrion's tenure as the Hand. 

Apologies for not knowing you mentioned this five years ago, I wasn't posting here.  My observation was in reference to the episode's confab of Queens, a King, and their myriad advisors, who nominally are seeking to end the White Walkers and the Army of the Dead.  Among that group, let's see.   Definitely Cersei, Tyrion, Varys, who were all in residence at the Red King in the Battle of Blackwater Bay.  Davos was there as well, and Pod, Bronn, and The Hound.  Pyromancers, who may still be there, but that is a question...it hasn't mentioned on the show after the BoBB.  Jaime knows about the vast stashes of wildfire in the Red Keep and under King's Landing, from Mad Aerys, and IIRC, he told Brienne in the tub scene when Roose's man chopped off Jaime's hand.  I'm betting Qyburn knows too, he's Cersei's Hand, and no doubt arranged the explosion at the Sept. 

So, we have 3 camps, and Jon says "fire kills them".   Pretty much everyone is in on it at the Dragon's Pit, with only a few who have no idea (Euron, Mountain, Dany, Missandei).   I leave out Bronn (and Pod) because he left because he & Lena Headey hate each other (and Pod too, because he joined Bronn at the bar)!!!  That accounts for all of the principals. 

Yet no one mentions wildfire as a potential huge weapon against the Army of the Dead?  Maybe they're all trying to be clever, but it was a swing and a miss for me. 

[anamika]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

From that interview with the director:

Thanks for clearing that up, said no one.  Really?  The fucking director doesn't know?  How was he able to provide direction to the actors?  I guess he didn't, because I rewatched the Sansa / Littlefinger scene from this episode and Sophie Turner gave no hint, verbal or non-verbal, that she was on to him.

This is like the Vale plot last year where Sansa did not tell Jon something as important as the presence of the frigging Vale army because the Vale riding to the rescue looked good on TV.

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

The only thing I could retroactively call Sansa's "aha" moment was when Petyr asked her what Sansa's death would get Arya.  She briefly made eye contact with him when she said "Lady of Winterfell".  Maybe that was her "aha, he's fucking with us" realization

Yes, I think that's the moment she realized he was fucking with them.  LF was actually successfully playing Sansa and Arya against each other and Arya does threaten Sansa and Sansa did send Brienne away to isolate Arya.  It was only when LF overplayed his hand and talked about Arya wanting to become lady of WF that Sansa caught onto him.

They cut a Sansa/Bran scene where she then goes and asks him for LF deets:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/29/game-of-thrones-isaac-hempstead-wright-on-deleted-scene-between-bran-and-sansa

Quote

According to the actor, Bran stayed out of the conflict between the two Stark girls until Sansa approached him about the situation. "It was a battle between Sansa and Arya really, and it wasn't any of Bran's business until Sansa thought 'why don't I fact check this with the best fact checker in the universe' and Bran was like 'Littlefinger did this and this and this,'" he explained.

Thanks to Bran's gift of omniscience, Hempstead-Wright believes Bran ultimately knew that she would approach him and wouldn't have allowed his sisters to turn on each other. "Because Bran has a real idea of destinies, I think he was waiting for his sister to come to him to give her the knowledge," he said. "I don't think he would have let that happen and he wouldn’t have sat there while Arya got killed by Sansa, because Bran would have known that wasn’t the way things had to go. He would have known 'I need to be here to reveal what the truth is.'"

On 8/28/2017 at 9:31 PM, Edith said:

@anamika Jon always keeps his word..except for that whole Wildling plot when he pretended to betray the Night watch and the cavesex with Ygritte. But yeah sure he can't lie...

Maybe apply some context to the situation? You don't see a difference between Jon lying to Wildlings on his undercover operation and him as the sovereign head of state of the North making deals with other heads of states? It's not that he can't or should not lie - Hell, Ned lied about something important (Jon) and confessed to treason to save his daughter. Jon's point is that Westeros works on a system of rules and laws and if no one upholds anything, then there is no point is there? - 'But when enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything.

As Liam Cunningham explains:

Quote

He had to say it. That’s Jon Snow’s character. And Davos would have said exactly the same thing. I think that’s one of the things that has brought these two people together is the fact that they’re both straight shooters. That speech that Jon Snow gave about the nature of lies and what’s been said, and what happens if we don’t stick to our word. We filmed that on exactly the day that a certain POTUS was elected and it had incredible resonance while we were filming it.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-finale-jon-snow-speech-trump-1202540692/

On 8/28/2017 at 10:30 PM, Oscirus said:

Why should Cersei agree to work with any of them under the terms Jon proposed? If he's not willing to lie to try to save the world, then I guess the wight threat and saving the world isn't as important as Jon says it is. 

Because it's an existential crisis and they did not expect that Cersei would be so much of a fool as to not see that? 

All they were asking for was a truce. Basically, that Cersei sit it out while Jon/Dany fight the WW. At the end, the WW would be defeated, Jon/Dany's forces would be considerably diminished and Cersei could have had an easy fight on her hands after getting time to regroup.  They approached her when Cersei had just suffered a big defeat, so anyone would assume that she would take this deal.

Instead her dumb plan is to what? Reduce Dany/Jon's chances of winning by fooling them into thinking that Lannister men would provide support? Attack them from behind with Lannister men, Golden company and elephants? What is she going to do when wight elephants advance on KL.

Basically Tyrion/Jon/Dany did not expect that Cersei would be so dumb.

Edited August 30, 2017 by anamika

[MadMouse]

20 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I'm sorry  but  you don't  get to claim woman's rights if you abandon your family for a handsome prince that you barely knew for a day.

Who's claiming anything, I just was pointing out how much lords like Brandon are hypocrites, they fuck who they want noble or lowborn but god forbid someone does that to their sister and suddenly it's the worst crime imaginable. Do you think he would have married Cat if Jason Mallister had fucked her first.

[Blonde Gator]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

Ah, I stand corrected. And I agree it was weird that they were still there (I assumed that they were still minors BECAUSE they were there).

But I still think that Robert might NOT have gone to war if Lyanna had proven herself a 'slut' in his eyes. He didn't go to war when he thought Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped her; he waited till Aerys threatened him, so he DID have the capacity to act sensibly under Jon's direction.

Both Ned and Robert fostered with Jon Arryn as boys.  However, at the time of the beginning of the Rebellion (it was only called "Robert's" later), both were adult men.

Ned was about a year younger than Robert.  Ned fostered from age 8 to 16, Robert at approximately the same time, although no definite date is known.  Being fostered at another great house is entirely different than being a hostage for good behavior of another house, being fostered (and fostering) was educational. 

Robert was 16 when his father, the Lord of Storm's End, died within sight of his castle when his boat sank.  Robert became Lord of the Stormlands at that time, however unlike Ned, he had travelled back and forth between Storm's End and The Eyrie while his father was still alive.   At that time, Ned was fifteen.  A year later, Ned began to split his time between the Eyrie and Winterfell.  So both Ned and Robert knew their siblings when they were younger, and when they were a bit older, as well. 

Robert was 21 when he was crowned King, after the war was over.  Jon Arryn was not involved in arranging Robert's betrothal to Lyanna, as far as I can tell.  He was, however, instrumental in arranging the marriage to Cersei Lannister, when Jon Arryn was serving as Robert's Hand, to bring the Lannisters tightly into the royal fold.  After the sack of King's Landing, and Robert's installation on the throne, Robert and Ned briefly fell out over Robert's approval of Tywin's murder of Rhaegar's children, but their mutual grief over losing Lyanna brought them back together again.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Blonde Gator
correct typo

[Blonde Gator]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Towards the very end you can see a quick shot of Brienne of Tarth smoking a cigarette in the background. LOL

I want to circle back to Bronn, because I think something has been cut or left out regarding his current status. In The Spoils of War he is complaining to Jamie that he hasn't been rewarded with his castle yet (he suggests being given Highgarden). It's apparent he expects to be rewarded with being made Lord of something-or-other (much like Littlefinger was made Lord of Harrenhal). 

But at the start of Eastwatch, after rescuing Jamie he says this is where they part company, because he's not sticking around to see the dragons spit fire on Kings Landing. 

Yet in the same episode, he's back at the Red Keep arranging a meeting between Tyrion and Jamie. 

???

Then at the top of this episode, he's chuckling to Jamie he still can't get used to being called "Lord." 

I think Bronn actually was awarded some kind of title and castle and we just didn't see it. That would explain why he stuck around despite declaring his intention to part ways with Jamie and head as far away from Kings Landing as he could get.

Probably a continuity error.  There was much the same thing when Arya left Braavos....all smug, before she got stabbed.  Supposedly there was an intervening scene that got cut, but they were out of time to reshoot anything to craft a transition that made sense, so they just went with the film they had in the can, figuring no one would notice.

But you noticed!  I wondered a bit about the "M'Lord thing too", but didn't connect it to Bronn saying "I'm out"....which he surely did.   Nice bit of detective work, thanks.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yet no one mentions wildfire as a potential huge weapon against the Army of the Dead?  Maybe they're all trying to be clever, but it was a swing and a miss for me. 

How are they deploying it? So far we've seen three methods, Flinging it with a catapault (the stupid method) Using a distraction and lighting it from a distance ( probably won't work against the undead), pouring it in a place where your target will be and using a candle timer. It's more of a last resort type of weapon.

 

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

I just was pointing out how much lords like Brandon are hypocrites, they fuck who they want noble or lowborn but god forbid someone does that to their sister and suddenly it's the worst crime imaginable. Do you think he would have married Cat if Jason Mallister had fucked her first.

 

They're all hypocrites. Lyanna's a hypocrite too.  Thats just a function of being a lord/lady in those times

Edited August 30, 2017 by Oscirus

[rmontro]

10 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Cersei, in defense of her relationship with Jaime, said to Ned, "The Targaryens married brother to sister for thousands of years."  So the royal Targaryen line was extra troubled by inbreeding.  

This is a fantasy world though, and I don't think we can apply 21st century Earth norms to Westeros.  Obviously, the inbreeding worked for the Targaryens in that it maintained the purity of their bloodline, and that seems to be important because of their ability to bond with and control the dragons.  Neither the Targaryens that we have seen nor Cersei's children seemed to have any defects that we might associate with incest.  

Then there's the possibility that Daenerys actually needs to be impregnated by another Targaryen in order to get pregnant.

Like I said, it's a different world.  I am very curious to see just how upset Jon (and Daenerys, for that matter) will be when they find out how closely they are related, and what effect, if any, it has on their relationship.  You would think that Jon would be more upset than Dany, but we will see eventually.