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Past Seasons Talk: From Seattle Grace to Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital


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3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I have a new pet peeve, and I didn't see a pet peeve thread, so I'll post this here.  It originates with Season 12...

Harriet was born in the season finale of Season 12.  In 2016.  The girl that Jackson was holding in the episode earlier this season (fall of 2020) should be 4 and a half years old.  She looked 2, at the most.  They seem to have properly aged the other kids, but forgotten about Harriet.

On this show, you never know what year it is. COVID has been the closest to bringing up with current 2020 and the moved to the summer of 2020. The rate they are going, I could see them going: "It's not 2021 and there are three vaccines now, so time to move to less masks."

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I have a new pet peeve, and I didn't see a pet peeve thread, so I'll post this here.  It originates with Season 12...

Harriet was born in the season finale of Season 12.  In 2016.  The girl that Jackson was holding in the episode earlier this season (fall of 2020) should be 4 and a half years old.  She looked 2, at the most.  They seem to have properly aged the other kids, but forgotten about Harriet.

On this show, you never know what year it is. COVID has been the closest to bringing up with current 2020 and the moved to the summer of 2020. The rate they are going, I could see them going: "It's now 2021 and there are three vaccines now, so time to move to less masks."

I've finished my rewatch of all previous seasons...  This really is a good show.  It used to be much better, but it's still pretty good.  I think I zoned out a lot last season and missed a good bit, so it was nice to pick up what I missed.  I like Deluca, and I like him and Meredith together - but I also don't mind Hayes now.  So whichever path the show wants to take, I would be ok with that.

One thing I still don't really get - the show wants to blame a lot of Amelia's erratic behavior on her tumor, right?  And they were basically hoping to give her a personality reset?  Well, she still does a lot of impulsive things and makes a lot of rash decisions.  So blaming the tumor doesn't really work, IMO.  They need to give that up.

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OK, for some reason I started rewatching again from the beginning (when it was really good!) and I'm up to season 6 again...  I have a real pet peeve, which I think I've always had:

How did Meredith and Derek just give their wedding to Izzy and Alex?  Forget the fact that they would need a marriage license and the other paperwork, what always bothered me is that those pairs of people are not even remotely the same size.  There is no way that Meredith's dress would fit Izzy (and vice versa for Izzy's bridesmaid's dress on Meredith), nor would Derek's tux fit Alex.  Yet... there they were.  Ugh.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

OK, for some reason I started rewatching again from the beginning (when it was really good!) and I'm up to season 6 again...  I have a real pet peeve, which I think I've always had:

How did Meredith and Derek just give their wedding to Izzy and Alex?  Forget the fact that they would need a marriage license and the other paperwork, what always bothered me is that those pairs of people are not even remotely the same size.  There is no way that Meredith's dress would fit Izzy (and vice versa for Izzy's bridesmaid's dress on Meredith), nor would Derek's tux fit Alex.  Yet... there they were.  Ugh.

That's the magic of clothes on TV, they always become the Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants. The anvils flying about the switch before it happened were pretty huge and then a few episodes later Izzie was gone for good. But they did actually make a big deal about Meredith finding a good dress for her personally, even though it was still huge and white.

At least in Katherine Heigl's 27 Dresses she made sure to tell a bride "thank goodness we're the same size!" (Why do I remember that?). But KH and EP are completely different shapes and sizes.

I remember there was discussion that maybe the church wedding wasn't actually legal and they filled the paperwork later at the hospital with emergency applications because everyone assumed Izzie was about to die. They were certainly legal the next season when Alex got dumped with Izzie's medical bills after she'd run off to Chehalis and divorce papers. 

But it's not like Shonda ever cared about things like this. With the infamous post it MerDer originally wanted to be legal and go to City Hall and had no qualms about that. They did the post it vows because they were busy that day. Then decided that was it, with no on screen discussion about deciding they didn't want/need the government involved and not using their marriage licence or what would happen if one of them was in the million disasters and accidents that frequently befell SGMD and how sorting out wills and next of kin without a wedding would be more time consuming. 

That is until they needed to adopt Zola and the show wanted to contrast the difference between the straight couple doing a quicky, unromantic legal marriage with the judge vs Calzona's big white wedding with their friends. With no actual discussion of why LGBT people were fighting for marriage equality in the first place. That it was because of the legality and rights it came with and no discussion of Calzona signing a domestic partnership or needing to spend time and money with a lawyer, so it fell a little flat for me. I have a lot of pet peeves about various wedding/marriage/divorce stuff on this show. 

I've been watching S5 and S6 recently too. With a lot of EPs filmed ahead scenes you can tell they aren't exactly connected to the episode as they're pretty vague about what's going on besides the general MW storyline and a couple of specifics like Derek's big spinal tumour ep.  

Edited by Featherhat
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2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

That's the magic of clothes on TV, they always become the Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants. The anvils flying about the switch before it happened were pretty huge and then a few episodes later Izzie was gone for good. But they did actually make a big deal about Meredith finding a good dress for her personally, even though it was still huge and white.

Personally, I thought the dress was ugly, and it definitely didn't look like Meredith's style at all.  

Most of the other stuff I just handwave, because it's a fictional show after all.  I'm not familiar with the laws of the state of Washington at the time, or if the show even exists in the "real world" such that the actual laws of the state would apply to these characters.  But something tangible like clothes is obvious to me.  

It just really bugs me that it magically fit perfectly!  No mention of alterations, or even time to make them... silly nit pick, I know, but it bothers me. 😂

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16 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Personally, I thought the dress was ugly, and it definitely didn't look like Meredith's style at all.  

Most of the other stuff I just handwave, because it's a fictional show after all.  I'm not familiar with the laws of the state of Washington at the time, or if the show even exists in the "real world" such that the actual laws of the state would apply to these characters.  But something tangible like clothes is obvious to me.  

It just really bugs me that it magically fit perfectly!  No mention of alterations, or even time to make them... silly nit pick, I know, but it bothers me. 😂

I didn't really like the dress but they made a point to say that Mer found the right dress for her after a day of grumpily trying them on. The rest of the time they barely pretended it wasn't going to be Izzie's wedding.

I get the nitpicking, it's just that they didn't care at all about the practicalities of any of it including the obvious size difference in actresses which had even been brought up on the show itself before. 

It's a minor miracle that they actually mentioned Alex's family not being at the wedding due to the switcheroo when his brother came to town. 

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(edited)

Lifetime started over this morning with season one, episode one, so I'm going to record them to watch in the evenings.  Today they had the first eight episodes, and I think they will be showing three episodes each weekday with a few more on Fridays.  I'm looking forward to seeing the ones that I haven't seen in years.  (I catch part of episodes here and there in the morning before I leave for work or when I have a morning off, but haven't seen entire episodes in a long time.)

Picked up dinner on the way home (Pizza! Pizza!) and am settling down to continue my nice quiet evening by watching some more.

Edited by BooksRule
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I can’t seem to remember or find this episode. At the beginning of the episode there was a woman and, possibly her husband/boyfriend, who says something about having “auras” (partial seizures). Or the husband/boyfriend interrupts and says “what about your auras?”. It wasn’t one of the more popular episode and I can’t seem to find it on google. I’ve experienced these auras and I really just want to find out which episode it was. I don’t remember what her diagnosis was, which is the reason I want to find it. Please help!

Last scene with George alive when he’s telling Bailey that he joined the army

he tell her he has to tell her something and it will be  quick he says because he has have to scrub in with the chief

How they heck did he end up outside getting hit by a buss if hw should have been in surgery with the cheif? Wouldnt the chief be wondering where is O’Malley !? 
season 5 episode 24 

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On 8/13/2021 at 12:22 AM, Deedee99 said:

I can’t seem to remember or find this episode. At the beginning of the episode there was a woman and, possibly her husband/boyfriend, who says something about having “auras” (partial seizures). Or the husband/boyfriend interrupts and says “what about your auras?”. It wasn’t one of the more popular episode and I can’t seem to find it on google. I’ve experienced these auras and I really just want to find out which episode it was. I don’t remember what her diagnosis was, which is the reason I want to find it. Please help!

I can't help you with the episode title, but you could be having migraines, as I get them with auras. It's also possible to get "ocular migraines," where you have the aura symptoms (particularly with the eyes), but don't get the actual headache afterward (I have those on occasion, too). I would be interested to hear what episode it is, if someone finds it!

On 8/13/2021 at 12:22 AM, Deedee99 said:

I can’t seem to remember or find this episode. At the beginning of the episode there was a woman and, possibly her husband/boyfriend, who says something about having “auras” (partial seizures). Or the husband/boyfriend interrupts and says “what about your auras?”. It wasn’t one of the more popular episode and I can’t seem to find it on google. I’ve experienced these auras and I really just want to find out which episode it was. I don’t remember what her diagnosis was, which is the reason I want to find it. Please help!

I'm not sure it's the one you're looking for but Sometimes a Fantasy in season 3 may be it. Take a look.

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6 hours ago, PepSinger said:

What’s everyone’s worst season?

I actually hated season 10, when they pitted Cristina against Meredith for each wanting different things.  Then of course, they got all lovey friendly again when Cristina  was leaving.  Really left a bad taste in my mouth, since they had always been there for each other thru everything until that season.

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7 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Lifetime has started reruns for S13, and words cannot express how terrible that season truly is. I think it may actually be the worst season of the show. What’s everyone’s worst season?

S15 was the nadir for me. Unlike S13, I can barely remember it because it left no impression.  

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I'm doing a spotty rewatch with the episodes I like, none with people I love dying (none with Ava or Minnick). I would love to know if a superfan had a count of how many times Richard Webber walked in on his surgeons making out or having sex?

On rewatch, it's a LOT of times and I'm skipping entire seasons. Maybe it's because Richard looks exactly like my father that those moments embarrass me as the viewer.

Edited by BoogieBurns
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I’m on season 5 of my first rewatch and it’s a much better show than I remembered. Seasons 1-3 are my favourite(season 4 is good but I really dislike how Lexie crashed into Meredith’s life and then got mad she wasn’t accepting, so her attitude just ruins the first half of the season for me). Anyway I’m midway through the season and it’s funny how they haven’t even tried to pretend George is still relevant. The actorobeen given nothing of substance to work with and leading up to this season was a season full of knocking George down and giving him his comeuppance for cheating. I still don’t understand that plot. He and Callie weren’t my favourite but him and Izzy was just a major no. I know why they both did it, character wise, but still, very stupid. I used to love their friendship and wish they’d maintained it more near the end. Would make the double death fakeout much more worth it. 

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On 10/23/2021 at 2:46 PM, PepSinger said:

Lifetime has started reruns for S13, and words cannot express how terrible that season truly is. I think it may actually be the worst season of the show. What’s everyone’s worst season?

That's the one. All I remember is everyone fighting with everyone else all the time. Especially Catherine talking Bailey into lying to Richard and sending somebody to take over his job and then everyone fighting about that.

They spend half the season trying to tell us that Alex is going to jail which of course he's not, and then that episode where three of the characters operate on someone in jail for no apparent reason, and then everybody just fights. And the only redeeming grace is when Maggie's mother shows up. 

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22 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Repeat tonight (4/14) from season 4, which is only going to remind us how great this show used to be

It reminded me of what a dick Derek was to Meredith.

OH! And that was the  candle house ep. I cringed. Again when Derek had to leave Mere to go tell his current fuck (Rose) that he was breaking up with her.

The whole thing was .. ugh!

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3 hours ago, taanja said:

It reminded me of what a dick Derek was to Meredith.

OH! And that was the  candle house ep. I cringed. Again when Derek had to leave Mere to go tell his current fuck (Rose) that he was breaking up with her.

The whole thing was .. ugh!

I hated that, and that her therapy all broke down into her obsessing over him, and her mother attempting suicide, over Richard. The whole Rose thing was BS, with Derek's just announcing that he was going to start dating, then sleeping with Rose, when he knew that she wanted something serious - wearing that engagement ring, right? 

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21 hours ago, Anela said:

I hated that, and that her therapy all broke down into her obsessing over him, and her mother attempting suicide, over Richard. The whole Rose thing was BS, with Derek's just announcing that he was going to start dating, then sleeping with Rose, when he knew that she wanted something serious - wearing that engagement ring, right? 

I always loved Meredith and Derek. But upon re-watch... I remember how sometimes he was almost verbally abusive toward her. 

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On 4/15/2022 at 12:52 PM, taanja said:

It reminded me of what a dick Derek was to Meredith.

OH! And that was the  candle house ep. I cringed. Again when Derek had to leave Mere to go tell his current fuck (Rose) that he was breaking up with her.

The whole thing was .. ugh!

Yes, that really bothered me that he was leaving to break up with Rose. I mean, yeah, i suppose it's the "honorable thing" in some sense. But Mere had lit all those candles and been standing there outside for a long time, waiting for him. Couldn't he have just told Rose in the morning/the next day? How long had they even been together?

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On 4/16/2022 at 6:46 PM, MarylandGirl said:

Yes, that really bothered me that he was leaving to break up with Rose. I mean, yeah, i suppose it's the "honorable thing" in some sense. But Mere had lit all those candles and been standing there outside for a long time, waiting for him. Couldn't he have just told Rose in the morning/the next day? How long had they even been together?

I thought the same thing.  It's not like it's a quick drive to the hospital or wherever Rose lives. How long would this take him to get there, talk with her, and come back?

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This show requires massive suspensions of disbelief, especially if you binge it.  I never watched it when it was live, but I needed a show with maximum number of seasons for help with insomnia, so I've been watching and rewatching.

Forgetting all the medical stuff that anybody who's ever been in a hospital (or a doctor's office), what cracks me up the most is how they are constantly telling each other what superb surgeons they are, but if you're a patient being told that you need a simple, easy, quick operation, you might as well pick out your coffin and say goodbye to your loved ones.  You're going to die.

Also, "mets"? "Lacs"? "Sats"?  Snort, snort and snort.  After a few seasons, they stopped saying "sats"--I guess they finally decided that "sats"--for saturations?  I guess--was stupid, since anybody with one of those things they clip on your finger could tell the doctor what the "sat" was, or "sats" (?) were.

And do they know what metastases are?

"Lacs" just gives me a headache.

And another thing:  They all say "eye-ther."  Does everybody else in the world but me say "eee-ther?"  Am I the only person who hears "eye-ther" rarely and "eee-ther" all the time?

There's more, but it'll have to wait.  Covid has me afraid to go anywhere, so now I'm obsessive-compulsive about GA and crotchety enough to want to write it all down.

Don't get me started on their inability during the first, what, ten? seasons to say the word "vagina." 

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Has any network TV show ever had so many lesbians written into the script?  I'd say easily 60% of the women doctors turn out to be lesbians, 65-70% if you count bisexuals.  At the same time, the writers don't seem to know how real lesbians interact with each other--they're all so awkward, with their talk of the "mountains" up north and going below the equator.  Yet they press on, piling lesbian on top of lesbian.  Let two female characters find themselves alone in an elevator, and by the time they reach the second floor, they're tentatively smooching each other.

I think lesbian characters are great, but how likely is it that this one hospital should employ so many lesbians, many of whom didn't realize they were attracted to other women?  Gay men, on the other hand, do seem to know what they're doing sexually, and the percentage of gay v. straight at this one hospital strikes me as more realistic.  But why do the writers insist on so many lesbians when they clearly don't know what lesbians are like sexually with each other?

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On 5/17/2022 at 6:32 AM, Mothra said:

And another thing:  They all say "eye-ther."  Does everybody else in the world but me say "eee-ther?"  Am I the only person who hears "eye-ther" rarely and "eee-ther" all the time?

IMO, you can't pronounce it the same for its different meanings.  For example, I think these are the standard pronunciations that I hear most often:

"You can pick eye-ther one."  Eye-ther when referring to a number of objects.

"I don't want to go there eee-ther."  Eee-ther when saying it like "also" or "too."  

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

IMO, you can't pronounce it the same for its different meanings.  For example, I think these are the standard pronunciations that I hear most often:

"You can pick eye-ther one."  Eye-ther when referring to a number of objects.

"I don't want to go there eee-ther."  Eee-ther when saying it like "also" or "too."  

I appreciate your pickiness.  Welcome, fellow traveler!🤪

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Hello everyone!

I am kinda new here, but I would really appreciate some help. Im gonna make Grey´s Anatomy game for my best friend with these characters:
Meredith, Derek, Mark, Lexie, Callie, Arizona, Alex, Jo, Richard, Bailey, Cristina, Amelia, Addison, Link, Jackson, April.  If you can 4 groups of 4 characters, how would you do that? 

It would help me a lot, thank you!

On 12/28/2020 at 9:44 AM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I have a new pet peeve, and I didn't see a pet peeve thread, so I'll post this here.  It originates with Season 12...

Harriet was born in the season finale of Season 12.  In 2016.  The girl that Jackson was holding in the episode earlier this season (fall of 2020) should be 4 and a half years old.  She looked 2, at the most.  They seem to have properly aged the other kids, but forgotten about Harriet.

Jackson, April, and Harriet showed up in the most recent episode, and Harriet STILL looked 2.  Maybe 3 or 4, but definitely not almost 6.  She was still in a stroller!

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I've been rewatching the show on Netflix, and I had forgotten just how batshit crazy the Denny/Izzie true wuv, let's cut the LVAD wire, storyline was.  Perhaps it seemed different when there were week long, or more, breaks between episodes, but with Netflix, Izzie seems insane and Denny appears clinically depressed.  In reality, Izzie would have lost her license, possibly faced criminal charges and in no way would she ever have returned to her job.  She literally arranged to steal a heart and commit assault for no real reason other than Denny was depressed.  I would have further fired Christina, Meredith and George for trying to cover for Izzie.  

Also, as an aside, I hate how Alex speaks to Addison when he is on her service.  He's rude, hostile and speaks down to her, despite the fact that she's an accomplished surgeon and he's an intern.  I honestly want her to just repeatedly dress him down, but he never seems to learn his lesson.       

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4 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Agree about all of the above yet I still find it more engaging then any of the drivel happening on the show now. 

I agree.  It's very engaging.  I just realize now how crazy it actually was as a storyline.  There was a point after the storyline where they do an M&M and a doctor points out that Bailey's interns must have very little respect for her authority to pull this kind of scheme (i.e. ignoring multiple pages, trying to cover for Izzie and purposefully putting a patient at risk for harm by cutting the LVAD and not seeking assistance from anyone once they saw what Izzie had done).  We are supposed to find the doctor to be a sexist jerk who can be dismissed because he mixes his legitimate criticisms with sexist ones about Bailey having recently given birth, but his ultimate point was right.  And indeed, this theme repeats itself with the last season where the residency program evaluator points out that everyone just does whatever they want, and no one respects anyone's authority. 

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That was the first time that I almost stopped watching the show. Izzy working so hard to get there, she talks about living in a trailer park, giving a baby up for adoption, and then she loses her mind over a man. His asking her to marry him, when they're helping him to breathe, after she cut the LVAD wire, and her being all happy and bubbly over that, was just too much. She did it and she wasn't sorry, because he proposed! 🙄

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18 hours ago, Anela said:

His asking her to marry him, when they're helping him to breathe, after she cut the LVAD wire, and her being all happy and bubbly over that, was just too much. She did it and she wasn't sorry, because he proposed! 🙄

I hated how the show seemed to reward her choices.  She got millions of dollars and was welcomed back to the hospital (where she acted put out that they restricted her activities for a time!). 

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I've been rewatching this show because I had forgotten a few things.  Some of the things I noticed that from the time Owen went to Germany and got Teddy pregnant (season 14 not sure of episode maybe 7?) to the time Alex leaves (Season 16 towards the end) only about a year or a bit more had passed. And so much had happened!!  This happened in no particular order because I wrote them as they came to me.

Jo's husband died and she got engaged to Alex.   April lost her faith, drank a lot, slept with a few guys.  Jackson funded a contest.  April was in charge of the contest not knowing Jackson had funded it.  Owen and Amelia fostered a baby and a teenager.  April finds her faith again. The weed cookies at the beginning of the contest presentations.  The crisis from Grandpa Avery.  The Avery Foundation becomes the Catherine Fox Foundation.  Catherine gets cancer.  April gets together with Matthew.  Betty (Amelia's foster daughter) goes to rehab, runs away.  overdoses. Teddy returns to Grey Sloan (three months pregnant). Jo and Alex's wedding and get married on the ferry.  April and Matthew get married.  Linc becomes part of the staff.  Linc tries to date Meredith.  DeLuca starts to date Meredith.  Deluca's father shows up.  Betty lets Owen adopt Leo (Amelia decides NOT to be part of the adoption).  Bailey has a heart attack.  Richard is fired and goes to another hospital.  Korashick (spelling?) is chief of chiefs.  Jo finds her biological mother.   Owen finds out that Teddy is going to have his baby.  Teddy begins to "date" Korascik (spelling).  Jo has a breakdown.  Jo and Alex get married again (forgot to send in papers after they got married the first time).  Alex is chief of staff at Pacific Hospital (where Richard works).   Owen works with Alex and Richard.  Meredith gets into trouble for insurance fraud.  Meredith does community service.  Somewhere in all of this Alex had also been interim chief of surgery for Bailey.  Somewhere in all of this Teddy has the baby.  Meredith goes before the medical licensing board.  Alex disappears and divorces Jo.

I based all these things on Teddy's pregnancy beginning when Owen went to Germany.  I'm sure I missed a few things

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On 6/8/2022 at 3:29 PM, pinguina said:

I've been rewatching this show because I had forgotten a few things.  Some of the things I noticed that from the time Owen went to Germany and got Teddy pregnant (season 14 not sure of episode maybe 7?) to the time Alex leaves (Season 16 towards the end) only about a year or a bit more had passed. And so much had happened!!  This happened in no particular order because I wrote them as they came to me.

Jo's husband died and she got engaged to Alex.   April lost her faith, drank a lot, slept with a few guys.  Jackson funded a contest.  April was in charge of the contest not knowing Jackson had funded it.  Owen and Amelia fostered a baby and a teenager.  April finds her faith again. The weed cookies at the beginning of the contest presentations.  The crisis from Grandpa Avery.  The Avery Foundation becomes the Catherine Fox Foundation.  Catherine gets cancer.  April gets together with Matthew.  Betty (Amelia's foster daughter) goes to rehab, runs away.  overdoses. Teddy returns to Grey Sloan (three months pregnant). Jo and Alex's wedding and get married on the ferry.  April and Matthew get married.  Linc becomes part of the staff.  Linc tries to date Meredith.  DeLuca starts to date Meredith.  Deluca's father shows up.  Betty lets Owen adopt Leo (Amelia decides NOT to be part of the adoption).  Bailey has a heart attack.  Richard is fired and goes to another hospital.  Korashick (spelling?) is chief of chiefs.  Jo finds her biological mother.   Owen finds out that Teddy is going to have his baby.  Teddy begins to "date" Korascik (spelling).  Jo has a breakdown.  Jo and Alex get married again (forgot to send in papers after they got married the first time).  Alex is chief of staff at Pacific Hospital (where Richard works).   Owen works with Alex and Richard.  Meredith gets into trouble for insurance fraud.  Meredith does community service.  Somewhere in all of this Alex had also been interim chief of surgery for Bailey.  Somewhere in all of this Teddy has the baby.  Meredith goes before the medical licensing board.  Alex disappears and divorces Jo.

I based all these things on Teddy's pregnancy beginning when Owen went to Germany.  I'm sure I missed a few things

That *is* a lot! And apparently I'd blocked some of it out (like Linc trying to date Meredith for one).

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Still watching and now in Season 7.  The fake documentary was really stupid.  I don't believe parents waiting for surgery on their small child are going to allow a camera crew to follow the case.  Also hated that Mandy Moore died after surviving the gunman.  My biggest surprise from the musical episode was I had no idea that Chandra Wilson was a singer.  I had seen Sara Ramirez on Broadway before she came to Grey's, so I knew she had an incredible voice, but Bailey singing was a nice surprise.  Kevin McKidd was also a surprise.   

And I really hate the trope of a disapproving parent coming to celebrate an event, only to declare when already there that they just can't handle it and walking out.  Callie's mom sucks.  Though in fairness, Callie and Arizona are not a great couple.  I feel more like they are together by default, to make up for the debacle that was Hahn and Callie and Hahn's walk off into the parking lot of mystery and doom, never to be seen again.        

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I was watching Season 17 where Teddy has her breakdown, and goes catatonic.  Owen says to Amelia he has only seen that kind of behavior with traumatized soldiers.  I was just like: "Did you forget when Christina, your first wife, had to be hospitalized because she had a psychotic break after the plane crash?" 

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