S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Willowy]

@Francie, but don't forget, Cersei herself half-jokingly suggested reaching out to Tyrion. 

Cersie makes me sick. I'm done with her smug smirking, the ugly faces she constantly makes, and her stupid belief in her own omnipotence. I'm not a huge fan of Jaime but he is definitely the VERY best and most loyal soldier she has. He is brave in battle, a good leader and he listens to reason, and he isn't afraid to present her with alternatives. 

I hope the wight bites her and she starts to necrotize then Qyburn has to do some weird magick on her that keeps her from dying somehow but still makes her skin all crusted with necropathy or something. She either needs to ally w/Dany for the survival of Westeros, or she needs to die. I'm well rid of her and so are the 7 kingdoms.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I'm wondering if one of the reasons for the annulment was because Aerys was holding her as a hostage--it seems Rhaegar was treating with some of the lords with an eye toward deposing his increasingly-insane father--and if the marriage was annulled, it might convince Aerys that Rhaegar didn't care about her and Aerys might let her go.

Aerys wasn't holding her hostage against  Rhaegar, he was holding her hostage to make sure that the Dornish fought on his side in the war that Rhaegar started.

4 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

What's the better idea?  Even in the North, first on the line, they're complaining about Jon's absence though he's at Dragonstone to get what they need to fight the WW.

Even if Cersei sees a wight exists, so what? Why would she help out Dany when she knows for a fact that Dany will come after her ass once the war with the Walkers is done?

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

There's no competition. If Dany finds out, you'll see her yield.

I said that show is setting a competition, not that there will be one. The show is always setting up conflict between natural allies, but nothing ever comes of any of it, see Sansa and Jon and now Sansa and Arya. I cannot imagine Jon wanting the Iron Throne. He and Dany are falling in love. I am sure they will resolve things with minimum drama.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[alaynestone]

35 minutes ago, that one guy said:

Well, Game of Thrones is very much a soap opera, so that tracks.  I mentioned that article to my stepmother who has never watched the show. She's like, secret/mistaken identies? Was anybody dead and then come back? I explained about the Hound and Jon, and then I'm like, "oh and his parents weren't who he thinks they were and the audience knows," and she says, "that's totally a soap opera." That shouldn't be a naughty word, the problem with soaps is the low production values and shoddy writing process, not the structure or content itself. 

Mmmm, maybe.  But no episode has felt so close to that than this episode personally - with what felt like manufactured drama between Sansa and Arya just for the sake of tension and Cersei claiming to be pregnant when it just wouldn't make sense concerning the books.  JMO.

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She really looked hurt by that comments, she's doing the right thing and getting shit on just like Jon, ruling sucks, Arya should try it.

Turn about is fair play. She was shitting on Jon, compared him to Joffrey for not listening to her, undermined him in front of the Northern houses and kept giving him unsolicited shitty advice. I am quite enjoying watching Arya go at her. Now she knows what it's like being in the hot seat.

Edited August 14, 2017 by anamika

[Greta]

If Prince Charles died tomorrow, Prince William would become heir to the throne, not Prince Andrew. That's how succession works in monarchies (and titles generally). I'm sure someone can find an example of some tiny country with a different succession rule, but we've seen nothing to indicate Westeros doesn't have the typical system.  

The whole point is to set up a situation for Dany to see what she does when she can't claim that she is the rightful legal heir to the Iron Throne, something she believes right now.  The (f)Aegon story in the books is clearly headed in this direction.

[Straycat80]

51 minutes ago, domina89 said:

So where was Theon?

I know right? And what was the fate of his sister? 

[Lemuria]

Quote

He might not have known about it.  Rhaegar's new marriage probably took place in secret at the Tower of Joy.

You may be right but--there's always a "but"! lol--first, why take the chance?  Why not go to someplace closer than Dorne?  Before going to the ToJ.  Especially as the ToJ was in the middle of nowhere, so getting a septon out there would take time and might be noticed.

[sumiregusa]

3 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Male-preference primogeniture says that Jon is the "rightful" king.  Eldest living son of the eldest son of the Mad King.

Proximity of blood says that Dany is the rightful queen.  She's the king's daughter, Jon is the king's grandson.

Most of the realm follows male-preference primogeniture, which is why Littlefinger was sort of right calling Bran "Lord Stark".  Technically, Bran is ahead of his sisters even though they are older than him.  He doesn't want it though, so Sansa stays Lady of WInterfell.  Dorne does absolute primogeniture, so eldest child (Arianne) inherits ahead of her brothers.

I'm just happy to see the word "primogeniture" successfully used so many times. 

[Meredith Quill]

The Diary of High Septon Maynard aged 83 and 3/4.

Dear diary,

Had my first crap of the day at 6.36am - 6.48am, normal. 

Second shit occurred at 11.39am - 12.24pm, yes I was a little constipated.

In the evening I annulled Prince Rhaegar's marriage to Elia of Dorne and remarried him to some pretty northern lass.

Squeezed in (heh pun, dad maester joke) another cheeky poopy before bed, think the clams at dinner must have been off because it was quite unpleasant.
 

[spottedreptile]

2 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

I'm just happy to see the word "primogeniture" successfully used so many times. 

Yes, it's so often confused with Salic Law, which is males only for the title no matter where they stand in the family. 

[Macbeth]

1 minute ago, alaynestone said:

Mmmm, maybe.  But no episode has felt so close to that than this episode personally - with what felt like manufactured drama between Sansa and Arya just for the sake of tension

I respectfully disagree - Arya and Sansa always had a contentious relationship.  I can see where Arya would be looking to fight it out with Sansa.  One of the last interactions she had with Sansa - Sansa was defending Joffrey who ended up beheading their father.

If they weren't at loggerheads - that would be unrealistic with everything we know about their characters.

[Lemuria]

Quote

Even if Cersei sees a wight exists, so what? Why would she help out Dany when she knows for a fact that Dany will come after her ass once the war with the Walkers is done?

Because there won't be an Iron Throne or a Westeros if the WW win?  

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

Turn about is fair play. She was shitting on Jon, compared him to Joffrey for not listening to her, undermined him in front of the Northern houses and kept giving him unsolicited shitty advice. I am quite enjoying watching Arya go at her. Now she knows what it's like being in the hot seat.

He blindsided her, and her advice was sound and fair, and  she told Jon he's as far from joffery as anyone she met, she's telling him he can't be autocratic and he screwed up buy not talking to Davos and her before hand to get on the same page, they are both working it through and as of E2 got it ironed out. If LF is actually fooling Arya, it's because she's quick to anger with a slow mind. 

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Because there won't be an Iron Throne or a Westeros if the WW win?  

Whens the last time youve seen Cersei acting rationally when it comes to people threatening her power?

Edited August 14, 2017 by Oscirus

[mac123x]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Even if Cersei sees a wight exists, so what?

"I don't believe in the walking dead.... except I've got an 8ft tall abomination in black armor standing behind me willing to do my bidding.  But that's different; you're talking magic, when Ser Gregor was reanimated with Mad Science".

5 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

I'm just happy to see the word "primogeniture" successfully used so many times. 

LOL, I've been watching too many documentaries about the British peerage.  It comes up a LOT.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Macbeth said:

I respectfully disagree - Arya and Sansa always had a contentious relationship.  I can see where Arya would be looking to fight it out with Sansa.  One of the last interactions she had with Sansa - Sansa was defending Joffrey who ended up beheading their father.

If they weren't at loggerheads - that would be unrealistic with everything we know about their characters.

I don't disagree that there's plenty of potential for them to have conflicting views, but this particular conflict is incredibly forced and makes Arya look really dumb, which she isn't.

[tennisgurl]

With so many characters from previously disparate storylines all coming together, I half expect Nick Fury to show up at any second. "Hello Gendry. I would like to talk to you about the Anti-White Walker Initiative..."

Its totally awesome! I love it!

You who was less awesome? Rhaegar. That guy SUCKED. If we don't find out that he had some really solid, prophecy based reason for doing all of this (ditching his wife, leaving her, and their kids, with his crazy father, annulling his marriage, screwing up the entire infrastructure of his country, and starting a massive war that cost countless lives just because he had a crush), than I'm going to go ahead and call HIM the real villain of this whole story. What a selfish asshole.

[Francie]

Best scene of the night -- Varys and Tyrion.

Best lines of the night:

Tyrion: Did you read it? 

Varys: It's a sealed scroll for King of the North. 

[pause]

Tryion: What's it say?

Varys: Nothing good. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[alaynestone]

4 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I respectfully disagree - Arya and Sansa always had a contentious relationship.  I can see where Arya would be looking to fight it out with Sansa.  One of the last interactions she had with Sansa - Sansa was defending Joffrey who ended up beheading their father.

If they weren't at loggerheads - that would be unrealistic with everything we know about their characters.

That's fair.  I agree that there's still a lot of tension and history with each other.  I just don't like the way the plot is going to bring that about - it feels so forced to me.

[MarySNJ]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Then Dany is the heir. Brings me back to  why are so many people claiming Jon is?

When Rhaegar died, his son Aegon became heir to the throne, not Viserys. After Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered,  Viserys would be next in line only if Rhaegar had no other true born children, but we now know for sure that he did. 

[SimoneS]

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Because there won't be an Iron Throne or a Westeros if the WW win?  

Exactly what about Cersei makes you think that she is a rational human being? She is the true mad queen despite a few people trying to tar Daenerys with that brush.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[LanceM]

1 minute ago, MarySNJ said:

When Rhaegar died, his son Aegon became heir to the throne, not Viserys. After Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered,  Viserys would be next in line only if Rhaegar had no other true born children, but we now know for sure that he did. 

Aerys named Viserys heir upon Rhaegar's death.  Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone.

[AGuyToo]

13 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Male-preference primogeniture says that Jon is the "rightful" king.  Eldest living son of the eldest son of the Mad King.

Proximity of blood says that Dany is the rightful queen.  She's the king's daughter, Jon is the king's grandson.

Jon (if legitimate) would be ahead of Dany even without male-preference primogeniture. Rhaeger was not only the Mad King's oldest son -- he was the Mad King's oldest child. So even without male preference, Rhaeger would be the heir and all his legitimate descendants would be in line ahead of Rhaeger's siblings.

[SeanC]

Regarding the Arya/Littlefinger stuff, why wasn't she using her Faceless Man powers when following him around?

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, LanceM said:

2 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

When Rhaegar died, his son Aegon became heir to the throne, not Viserys. After Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered,  Viserys would be next in line only if Rhaegar had no other true born children, but we now know for sure that he did. 

Aerys named Viserys heir upon Rhaegar's death.  Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone.

Not to mention Jon wasn't born until after  both Rhaegar and Aerys died. It gets pretty messy. Not sure how it works in that case.

[KaleyFirefly]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Speaking of chemistry...or lack of...if Dany and Jon are going be a legit love story, the lack of chemistry between Kit and Emilia is a real problem. JMO

 

[Colorful Mess]

That Eastwatch squad assembly was straight out of Joe Abercrombie. He needs to write a fan fic so I can make it my head canon!

This ep was REALLY OFF, like a bad carton of milk in the fridge.

The wight hunt and motivation for it: SO many leaps in logic, time, distance, space...which I could forgive if the plot was actually GOOD.

Beautifully shot though, it was cinema quality. Kudos to the director of this ep.

[SimoneS]

8 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

When Rhaegar died, his son Aegon became heir to the throne, not Viserys. After Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered,  Viserys would be next in line only if Rhaegar had no other true born children, but we now know for sure that he did. 

From what I just read Aryes named Viserys his heir over Rhaegar's son, Aegon. This cuts Rhaegar's heirs out of the succession. It wouldn't be the first time that happened. At their father's behest, Alfred the Great, the first English king, inherited the throne from his older brother despite his brother having young sons cutting them out of the succession completely.

 

18 minutes ago, Greta said:

If Prince Charles died tomorrow, Prince William would become heir to the throne, not Prince Andrew. That's how succession works in monarchies (and titles generally). I'm sure someone can find an example of some tiny country with a different succession rule, but we've seen nothing to indicate Westeros doesn't have the typical system.  

Well, if you are referring to a tiny country like Great Britain, then yep, I can come up with several examples of different successions that occurred throughout the history in that country. The modern day monarchy succession does not represent what has occurred throughout all the history of all European monarchies. And GoT is based on medieval Europe, specifically Britain.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[Cherpumple]

7 minutes ago, mac123x said:

"I don't believe in the walking dead.... except I've got an 8ft tall abomination in black armor standing behind me willing to do my bidding.  But that's different; you're talking magic, when Ser Gregor was reanimated with Mad Science".

Speaking of, the only thing I kept thinking about during the last scene was that if the wight hunters successfully bring their prisoner down to Kings Landing, we may FINALLY see the long-awaited Cleganebowl. Woo hoo!

[Minneapple]

47 minutes ago, Willowy said:

Why would Sam be angry or feel butthurt by his ragingly abusive father being roasted? He's seen and endured far worse and he's made far better/stronger relationships with Jon and Gilly than he ever had with that stiff-necked thistle-head. He may feel a twinge for his brother but it seems Dickon never really protected Sam from his mean dad... so fuck 'em.

Well. I'm not sure Sam will be *that* angry by Daenerys killing his dad/brother, but I wouldn't call it "butthurt" if he's upset or angry. It's still his dad and brother and it leaves his mom and sister alone. And it's not in Sam's character to just be like, "You roasted my family? Oh...okay then. By the way, you're Jon's aunt."

[LanceM]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not to mention Jon wasn't born until after  both Rhaegar and Aerys died. It gets pretty messy. Not sure how it works in that case.

It is almost like George wants the question of who has the best claim to be murky.

[WatchrTina]

28 minutes ago, Francie said:

Cersei to Jaime this episode: Don't ever betray me again. 

I didn't understand that line.  When did Jaime "betray" Cersei?  He didn't know he was going to meeting Tyrion.  Does Cersei think it was a betrayal that he let Tyrion go?

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Maybe so, but Arya implied that Sansa wasn't just contemplating the possibility but wanted it to happen, and Sansa's reaction indicated that Arya wasn't mistaken in that belief.

I am curious how Jon/Sansa shippers will spin the epiphany that Sansa is secretly hoping that Jon dies and frees her to rule the North unimpeded, though.

I thought the the scene implied she was using the skill about detecting lies she learned from playing the game of faces of whatever it was called with the Waif and Jaqen, And that's why Arya was so pissed because Sansa does want to be Queen in the North.

[tennisgurl]

50 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

As if he doesn't know her name? 

Your not fooling anyone, Tormund. We all know you have Brienne's name written all over your trapper keeper, with hearts all around them.

[rmontro]

I'm thinking that maybe Sansa really did ask Littlefinger to get that note for her and take it out of circulation.  Littlefinger did say "Lady Stark thanks you for your service" or whatever it was.  And in the previews for next week Arya is asking Sansa "What is it you're afraid of?".  Maybe Sansa is afraid the people will turn on her if they see that note.

I know the first inclination is that Littlefinger is setting Sansa up for something, but maybe that's not the case here.  He's definitely plotting something, but maybe this isn't part of it.

[mac123x]

6 minutes ago, spottedreptile said:

Yes, it's so often confused with Salic Law, which is males only for the title no matter where they stand in the family. 

 

1 minute ago, AGuyToo said:

Jon (if legitimate) would be ahead of Dany even without male-preference primogeniture. Rhaeger was not only the Mad King's oldest son -- he was the Mad King's oldest child. So even without male preference, Rhaeger would be the heir and all his legitimate descendants would be in line ahead of Rhaeger's siblings.

The World of Ice and Fire history makes it pretty clear that the Targs followed a "do what I want because I'm the king and I say so" policy of inheritance. 

1.  Aenys I:  "The throne goes to my eldest son".  His brother Maegor responds by usurping the throne.

2.  Jahaerys 1:  "My eldest son just died.  Primogeniture says my heir should be his daughter, but I want it to go to my second son.  The excuse we'll use is that women can't succeed"

3.  Jahaerys 1, a bit later:  "OOOkay, so second son is dead now.  I'm left with either a) great grandson on eldest son's side, or grandson from my second son.  The latter is a grown man, so we'll use the excuse that women can't pass on a claim either to bypass the toddler great-grandson."

4.  Viserys 1:  "Yeah, about that whole 'women can't inherit' thing?  Forget it, I'm naming my daughter Rhaenyra as heir".  Resulting in the Dance of the Dragons.

[AGuyToo]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Well, if you are referring to a tiny country like Great Britain, then yep, I can come up with several examples of different successions that occurred throughout the history in that country. The modern day monarchy succession does not represent what has occurred throughout all the history of all European monarchies. And GoT is base don medieval Europe.

Such as?

I think Greta is right. For example, when Edward III died, the crown went to his grandson Richard II (son of the Edward the Black Prince), even though several of Edward III's other children (Richard II's uncles and aunts) were still alive.

Edited August 14, 2017 by AGuyToo

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

She placated, cajoled, did what she had to do to calm them down. Northern leaders from Ned to Robb to Jon have all done a "my way or the highway" type of rule.  I can only imagine that's a northern thing and not a gender thing.

Robb maybe, Ned not so much he had a give and take with his people, once he made his decision they followed.

[Colorful Mess]

59 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

He does have a sexy voice.

Oh yesssss he could make reading Septon Maynard's diary downright sexy.

[Lemuria]

Quote

Aerys named Viserys heir upon Rhaegar's death.  Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone.

I apologize if I have the timeline wrong, but my understanding is that he was "declared" king by his mother after both Rhaegar and Aerys were dead (he couldn't be crowned or declared king while his father was still alive).  In other words, after House Targaryen had fallen and there was a new House on the throne.  That would make any such action by Rhaella irrelevant.  

It seems to me that the people of Westeros, if they were so inclined to think about accepting a Targaryen ruler, would most likely look to the male line, Westerosi traditions being what they are.  

 

Quote

From what I just read Aryes named Viserys his heir over Rhaegar's son, Aegon. This cuts Rhaegar's heirs out of the succession.

At most, that would cut out the existing Aegon.  Aerys would have to cut Rhaegar out of the line of succession completely to disinherit future offspring.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Lemuria

[Tvfangirl]

27 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

There's no competition. If Dany finds out, you'll see her yield.

I can't wait for that..after hearing the Queen Daenerys, first of her name spiel so many times. 

[domina89]

Anybody else laugh at the way Dany cut her eyes at Jon after she asked him if he thought the dragons were beautiful and he said that wasn't the word he was thinking of?  I thought she might breathe fire herself for a moment until he backtracked that comment.

[Willowy]

5 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well. I'm not sure Sam will be *that* angry by Daenerys killing his dad/brother, but I wouldn't call it "butthurt" if he's upset or angry. It's still his dad and brother and it leaves his mom and sister alone. And it's not in Sam's character to just be like, "You roasted my family? Oh...okay then. By the way, you're Jon's aunt."

Sure, but I'm saying he wouldn't be all 'chip on shoulder' about it, especially once he knew the circumstance. He'd hear Dany offered the knee or death, and his stubborn dad wouldn't take it even though he'd changed allegiancies before, so... crispy Tarly. And I'm sure a warlike soldier rigid dude like Randyll would've provided a will of sorts for his wife and daughter. 

What I'm saying is, Sam has way bigger problems and his abusive asshole dad that humiliated him in front of his gal the last time they were together ain't priority one. 

[Oscirus]

Just now, Tvfangirl said:

29 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

There's no competition. If Dany finds out, you'll see her yield.

I can't wait for that..after hearing the Queen Daenerys, first of her name spiel so many times. 

I can't imagine a show that prides itself on feminism ending with the most powerful female yielding her claim to a man. That would not go over well at all.

[La Dee Da]

The sequencing of the last two seasons is very intriguing - I thought it would be The war with Cersei this year and the Night King the next.  The talk of an armistice reorders that a bit - Dany joins the fight in the North, likely depleting some of her forces, while Cersei bides her time and reloads with sell swords.  It doesn't have the same stakes, though, in terms of bringing the series to a close.

Littlefinger's manoeuvres are a little too obvious - I'm hoping they're setting up a student defeats the master storyline for Sansa, with the help of Arya ... that said, I would not be surprised if the next episode has a moment in which Arya is reciting her list and ends it with Sansa's name ... it would be too tempting from a writing perspective.

Besides Gilly, I wonder who else has read Maynard's diary. She can't be the first to have looked at it (maybe the first the have read it in detail, given the largely engrossing details).

Edited August 14, 2017 by La Dee Da

[Paradigm14]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

I can't imagine a show that prides itself on feminism ending with the most powerful female yielding her claim to a man. That would not go over well at all.

I'm a Feminist, and it would be fine with me.

[Francie]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I didn't understand that line.  When did Jaime "betray" Cersei?  He didn't know he was going to meeting Tyrion.  Does Cersei think it was a betrayal that he let Tyrion go?

Yes. That he didn't capture him and bring him to Cersei. 

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

He blindsided her, and her advice was sound and fair, and  she told Jon he's as far from joffery as anyone she met, she's telling him he can't be autocratic and he screwed up buy not talking to Davos and her before hand to get on the same page, they are both working it through and as of E2 got it ironed out. If LF is actually fooling Arya, it's because she's quick to anger with a slow mind. 

No he was the King making decisions. If she wanted to give her input, she should have discussed with him before hand about what he wanted to do. And not keep pushing the point again and again till he shut her up. Her advice was anything but fair - she wanted little children punished for what their parents did. And she did compare him to Joffrey for not listening to her shitty advice when she countered him in front of everyone.

Davos is his hand and Jon is King. If Sansa wants Jon to listen she should approach him and discuss with him before hand. Not give him orders in front of everyone when he is making decisions.

In this very episode she complains about Jon being gone, when he is away trying to save their asses. As Arya points out, that's why he put her in charge - so instead of being a whiny ass, be in charge.

And Arya is anything but a slow mind. She can see that Sansa wants to rule the North by herself and hence she confronts her about it.

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

 

Gilly would be a great maester!

I absolutely LOVE and SUPPORT this observation <333333