S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, WebosFritos said:

I really don't think it's Jon's pride that's stopping him from bending the knee just like it wasn't Mance's pride that made him refuse to follow Stannis. They both are/were just thinking about their people and the responsibility they have towards them. Dany has a "good heart" (TM King Snow) and as soon as she starts focusing on the fight beyond the Wall I think Jon will seriously consider bending the knee.

The North worships the same gods as the children of the forrest, if I remember correctly. But I don't remember if it's been mentioned on the show. I think they did show that weirwoods are sacred to the northerners and the children. In my opinion, the show has established that the children no longer control the White Walkers. Maybe Jon misinterpreted the drawings in the cave but it seems unlikely to me that the children still want the Night King to destroy mankind. I also think Jon was simply trying to show to Dany the importance of fighting together to defeat the army of the dead.

Yes, all of the Starks worship the Old Gods, except Catelyn, who is Tully by birth, so she swears oaths using "by the Old Gods and the New".  It has been mentioned several times on the show, the most memorable is perhaps Jon's oath to the Night's Watch....taken north of the Wall, at a heart tree.  Sam joins in, saying "the Seven have ignored me, maybe I'd do better with the Old Gods".

Perhaps Arya is now Braaviosi in her religious beliefs, worshiping "The Many Faced God", aka "The God of Death" (to whom we say "not today").  RIP Silvio Florel.

[MrsR]

GRRM is a fool for not hiring ghost writers. He knew the ending when he started.  Just take some of your huge Scrooge McDuck heap of money and come up with an iron clad contract and spend it on some ghost writers. It's such a joke that he hasn't finished these books.

[sumiregusa]

9 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Here's my armchir psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. 

I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay. 

This. All of this.

I'd also like to state for the record that it's incredibly short-sighted of GRRM to assume that something like this wasn't going to automatically happen the second he gave HBO license to adapt his most lucrative life's work. If he wasn't planning to haul ass and try to release his books before the show caught up then he shouldn't have done it.

Granted, I see how it was a gamble and there was nothing to say that the show would've been a success. However, the fact that he chose to focus on other writing projects over the course of FIVE YEARS and didn't finish either of the final two books means he's completely changed his priorities.

Not to mention he's laughing all the way to the bank so why would he rush to finish now? Sad but honest truths we must face.

[Katsullivan]

11 minutes ago, HLucrezia said:

That said, you're right to point out that Dany doesn't really have enough proof to simply commit her army but I think allowing Jon to bring back proof, or sending an emissary to the North to find proof or at least as reasonable as demanding Jon bend the knee. I'm not saying that it's wrong of Dany to want Jon to the bend the knee. Of course she does. She has made no secret of the fact that she is there to conquer and claim but there are other options that are equally as reasonable and if Jon is telling the truth they are worth considering. 

The real criminal here is the writing. 

Dany has had some visions about the Impending Doom; and Mellisandre an episode ago mentioned something about an Impending Doom. But the writers gave her (and Tyrion, and Varys) convenient amnesia so Jon's story sounds ridiculous. 

(And didn't Tyrion also get some "bad feels" from the Wall? Isn't that why he agreed to send some men to the Wall when that NW showed up on King's Landing asking for help and Arya fell in with them, etc. Apparently, that's also been forgotten for plot sake.)

Then there's Aemon Targaryen - who was one of Jon's mentors and took this seriously. Jon could mention that to Dany. Even if that didn't straight up convince her, she won't be so pissed at him if he came to her with stories about her last (known) living relative.

 

Instead we're stuck in this "bend the knee"/"give me your dragons"/"bend the knee!"/"give me your dragons!" back-and-forth that, as @anamika said in another thread, is less about plot and more about Jon starring in a romcom with Dany (with Davos as wingman). We all know that this entire "bend the knee" shtick is just foreplayshadowing to when he finally... clears throat... "bends the knee"... clears throat.

 

 

But if we have to take the writing as canon - sighs - then I'm still going to stand my ground that Jon is the unreasonable, entitled person here. The burden of proving his own story is on him. He's the one coming cap in hand with nothing to offer or threaten. He should have come with someone from the Night's Watch in the first place. He can suggest that Dany send emissaries to the North. etc. It's not wrong or unreasonable of Dany to not immediately abandon her own life's quest to help him, simply because he said so but, in the meanwhile, is not willing to give up his Crown for said help.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Francie]

1 minute ago, MrsR said:

GRRM is a fool for not hiring ghost writers. He knew the ending when he started.  Just take some of your huge Scrooge McDuck heap of money and come up with an iron clad contract and spend it on some ghost writers. It's such a joke that he hasn't finished these books.

I made that exact same argument to some friends of mine recently. He can retain ultimate control -- if he doens't like whtat they do, scrap it. It's not like he could possibly be making any slower progress.

But it's pride of ownership, I guess.  It's no longer a Picasso, if he just draws the forms and they color them in.

But, if he's not working on it, anyway -- why not take advantage of some help?  I think the publisher would be more than happy to put some good talent on this and do it in a way that confidentiality was paramount. 

It just makes no sense. This pace isn't glacial. It's a completely standstill. 

[Tikichick]

51 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

True, but if the WW kill them all first, then what was the point of any of it? ;-)

You were making the point that Dany hasn't been in long-term conflict with Cersei, that they've only recently engaged as enemies.  Dany certainly hasn't even had WW on her radar long-term.  She essentially only began receiving word that such a threat might exist, and is only know starting to seriously entertain it is a threat.  We know Jon was right in his assessment that the current battle for the throne is essentially a child's game in comparison to the WW.

[HLucrezia]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

But if we have to take the writing as canon - sighs - then I'm still going to stand my ground that Jon is the unreasonable, entitled person here. He's the one coming cap in hand with nothing to offer or threaten. He should have come with someone from the Night's Watch in the first place. He can suggest that Dany send emissaries to the North. 

Fair enough. I confess I do find Jon slightly more sympathetic here because we do know the WW are real and it's hard not to share his urgency but I don't mind admitting that they are both being stubborn to the point of ridiculousness especially as not one person seems willing to suggest any middle ground or, you know, a marriage that neither of them would mind so much. 

[dragonsbite]

33 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

"Chaos is a Ladder" came from the same episode as the wildings reaching the top of The Wall.

The episode was called "The Climb".  The writers planted LF's line "Chaos is a Ladder" to not only reinforce the importance of the "climb" to the top of The Wall, but to use it to pay off a scene (this one) in a later episode.  Unfortunately, it was so much later that casual viewers didn't remember it.  Only us ASOIAF geeks knew exactly what it was about....kind of like the call-back to Stannis The Grammar Nazi's fondness for "fewer", which had me howling in laughter.

I didn't catch the callback to that earlier episode. BUT...LF's reaction* told me that Bran had scored a point. So I immediately paused the show to look up that phrase to find the source of it.

*When Bran said "Chaos is a ladder," LF's raised eyebrow and a slight movement backward showed that it totally threw him. Then he was about to come back with a smarmy response, but Meera interrupted him. You can see LF's annoyance in his eye flutter at the knock on the door -- he clearly was getting to something significant (his mind) in his chat with Bran. He wanted to score points with Bran (probably to fool him into thinking LF is on his side).

[Chris24601]

21 hours ago, Francie said:

It's absolutely going somewhere.  The first episode shows a man and daughter murder/suiciding themselves due to starvation We have Sansa and Jaime fretting about food. 

This whole story is going to the fact that the leaders of Westeros chose to fight each other rather than grow and store food for the winter.  The Riverlands has been devastated for years. The Reach's food destroyed.  King's Landing common folks have been starving for years.  At this rate, I'm hard pressed to see more than 10 to 20% of the general population surviving this upcoming winter.  

The end will be bittersweet, indeed. 

I think you're on the right track with this thinking. I think too that the rather unnecessary destruction of the food stores (even if its not ALL the food stores) by Dany makes an interesting contrast to Sansa who is busy gathering food stores so her people can last the winter. My suspicion is that this seemingly mundane thing is what ends up making Sansa so important to the series (books and show)... She is the one who saves the survivors from starvation and lets them last through the winter to see spring (particularly once Littlefinger is out of the picture since he's hoarding more food in the Vale). It may not be killing the Night King or conquering the Seven Kingdoms on dragonback, but the people who survive the winter to come are likely going to have Sansa to thank for it.

I think it also plays into my narrative hunch that the series ends at Winterfell (i.e. ends where it began). The south's resources are depleted and unless food stocks are secured I don't know how long Dany will be able to keep the Dothraki from raiding peasant villages for food. We've had visions of the future dating back to season two of King's Landing being burned (my hunch is Dany finally has enough of Cersei and does burn the Red Keep, inadvertently setting off her father's old caches of wildfire and wiping King's Landing off the map). So if the southern resources are depleted, its noble families and capitol city wiped out and hungry Dontraki are the main military force left in the region... its going to get UGLY in the south. Meanwhile, protected from conventional invasion by the deep snows of winter and likely to be stocked sufficiently for its people to last the winter you have Winterfell poised to emerge as the bastion of civilization when the snows recede.

Also of note... the whole area north of the Wall was once green before the White Walkers were trapped there (we see that in the vision of the Night King being created). If the White Walkers are gone that's a vast land to the north waiting to be colonized that puts Winterfell much closer to the center of the map for Westeros.

So my hunch is that due to the food stores to last the winter and the current capitol destroyed, the endgame king will be ruling not from King's Landing, but from Winterfell.

 

15 hours ago, Francie said:

First, if you are American, you chose to join the army.  Here, the forces are conscripted by the houses and then sent to the liege lord.  That's why the show has dedicated so much time to showing us that soldiers are just men whose wives have had babies and fathers need their help with their boats. 

Yeah, I didn't find Field of Fire 2.0 to be inspiring... I found it horrific and it was frankly filmed to be. We were tracking the battle through the eyes of Jaime and Bronn for the most part as they were surrounded by men cooking in their own armor. Say what you will about Cersei destroying the Sept, but the presentation there was of bodies disintegrated in an instant and the only shots of the aftermath were at a distance. It did not linger on the horror of it. Here it was personal and lingered. We saw burning men screaming and flailing about, we saw the blackened, cracked and bleeding skin of people not yet dead and ones at the river trying to put out the flames. A shot lingered on a corpse burned beyond recognition (save that it had once been a human being) being trampled underfoot by the Dothraki horses.

They preceded this with scenes like the conscripts (i.e. their choices were serve or be executed) Arya encountered and by Dickon's reservations and regrets about the nature of war and conflicted loyalties.

War is an atrocity. People who'd rather just be home with their wife and kids or helping their fathers are killed because people with more power than them use them in their Game of Thrones. It horrifies me the number of people who cheer the death and carnage because the Lannisters deserve it... as if there were any Lannisters responsible for the decisions killed in that fight. No, the dead are the sons of the people stuck under the Lannisters' thumbs. Every time she goes into battle she's trying to kill the very people she claims to have the best interests of in mind.

"The villain is a hero of the other side." I think Martin's words are being born out as much by fans as the people inside the story. Because she was a "good guy" at one point and can sympathize with her excuses are made for how her conquest and destruction are okay because she's targeting "the bad guys" while the Lannisters are evil because their attacks are on the "good guys" (good guys who happen to include people who murdered an innocent girl because of who her grandparents were and her nephew because he stood in the way of her being able to wage war, a woman who led reavers to murder, plunder and rape their way along the coast for years and a woman who murdered the king and framed two innocent people for it... led by a woman who crucified hundreds of people without regard to innocence or guilt for the crime being punished and fed a man to her dragons that she didn't even know if he was innocent or guilty).

The leadership of both sides of the war for the Iron Throne are morally compromised and the rank and file a mix of good guys, bad guys and people just hoping to survive so they can go home. That is the tragedy of it all.

I also find it the height of irony that people claim Dany to be something different when they're referring to her attack as "Field of Fire 2.0" in direct comparison to the actions taken by Aegon in his conquest. Dany IS just more of the same and that's the point. Cersei isn't Dany's opposite number (i.e. the evil queen to Dany's good queen); she's the checklist for Dany's fall. Just wait until one of those scorpion bolts (or whatever) lands true and Dany loses one of her own children (three children and one lost coming out of the womb, just like Cersei) and lets see how she reacts and how focused on ending the killer regardless of the collateral damage she becomes.

What last night showed me is that the dragons can't survive the endgame... they're too absolutely horrific for anyone to hold in the end. They're the opposite number of the White Walkers (if some of the readings of the old legends are true and they are the "Red Sword" forged by Azor Ahai then they're literally bio-weapons created through blood magic to fight the bio-weapons created by the CotF). If the dragons don't survive than I can't see Dany doing so any more than Cat could survive after seeing her son and grandbaby murdered before her eyes (and believing Bran, Rickon and Arya to already be dead and Sansa married off to the Imp beyond all hope of rescue).

2 hours ago, Francie said:

But I think every moment and every conversation serves a purpose at this point. That Naath has no marriage and no bastards is important for when Daenerys learns that Jon is Rhaegar's son.  She may hold on to Jon's bastard status as a justification for considering herself the "rightful" ruler of Westeros. And her bff has a different life experience, and can't back her as to that, unless she placates her instead of telling her what she really thinks. 

My read on that situation in light of the above is that the key moment of that conversation was Jon questioning Missandei's rather star-struck belief that Dany would not only let her go if she wanted to leave her service, but give her a ship and her blessings to do so. I think that is going to prove to be a fatal misread on her part that falls into line with the previous statement that she is Dany's most trusted advisor. I believe that at some point (likely in season eight) Missandei will be in a situation where she presumes her value to Dany ensures her safety, but because Dany's priorities have shifted (ex. because someone murders one or more of her babies) she will end up as collateral damage and Davos' interest in her now is so that the correct degree of moral outrage can be generated when the time comes for her allies to instead back Jon as king (whether he wants to be or not).

[benteen]

17 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Then there's Aemon Targaryen - who was one of Jon's mentors and took this seriously. Jon could mention that to Dany. Even if that didn't straight up convince her, she won't be so pissed at him if he came to her with stories about her last (known) living relative.

Yes, why Jon hasn't brought up Aemon is being me.  I was going to wonder why Tyrion hadn't either but Tyrion didn't know that Aemon was a Targaryen.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

Yes, why Jon hasn't brought up Aemon is being me.  I was going to wonder why Tyrion hadn't either but Tyrion didn't know that Aemon was a Targaryen.

Wasn't Aemon a disgraced member of the Targaryan family?  I don't recall his entire history, but maybe bringing him up wouldn't win Jon any points?

[Tikichick]

Just now, benteen said:

Yes, why Jon hasn't brought up Aemon is being me.  I was going to wonder why Tyrion hadn't either but Tyrion didn't know that Aemon was a Targaryen.

I've started to wonder if that story won't spill when Jorah shows up, possibly as part of Jon telling Jorah he served his father -- oh, and BTW, Aemon Targaryen was also the Maester serving at the wall, he also taught me a lot ...

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Well it looked like a lake. Drogon flew over a still lake. (Awesome shot of the wake caused by his tail)  Blackwater Rush is described as a fast moving deep river (thus the Rush part of the name) with treacherous currents.

And the loot train was stopped for rest. You wouldn't water your horses with salt water. So while they were near Blackwater Rush they weren't on Blackwater Rush.

Jackpot!  Here is a map that shows exactly where Blackwater Rush is, and its relative location(s) to both King's Landing and Dragonstone.  I believe the battle took place at the final crossing of the Blackwater Rush (just west of King's Landing), as the Lanny army was following the Gold Road.

We can actually SEE how the battle played out, viewing the maps.  Where the Dothraki came ashore, etc.  Too bad it only took hundreds of people and pages of comments to ascertain the how, what and where of this battle......chalt that up to bad writing.  Not to mention the fact that the writers could have used an additional 60 seconds of filming to indicate that leaving High Garden/nearing King's Landing didn't occur in the space of one day, rather it took weeks!

Here's an idea where the Dothraki would have come ashore (after being ferried from Dragonstone) in relation to KL and the Gold Road/Blackwater Rush intersection:

 

 

Here's the Westeros.org Wiki entry for the Blackwater Rush.  Apparently there are a couple of them along the length of the river, but by deduction, we know which one due to it's proximity (and the actual delivery of the gold) to King's Landing.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blackwater_Rush

Hope this helps!  It did for me.

[YaddaYadda]

39 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Here's my armchair psych analysis. Are you familiar with what happened to Stephanie Meyer and her leaked manuscript? She was working on another book in the Twilight universe and hackers got to it about halfway through and published it. She was so disillusioned to see her story spoiled that she abandoned the project. 

I think we're seeing something similar going on here with GRRM. The show beat him to the punch and it's ruined it for him. Before s5/6, I'd always hear that he was working on Winds slowly but surely, figuring it out and trying to get through his block. Once the show started passing him and making their big reveals on plots he hadn't gotten to, those whispers went away. In the last couple years, it seems he's turned his attention to side projects in the wider universe, something that is still wholly his because the show hasn't bothered with more than a fraction of his world building. I think that's where his attention will stay. 

On behalf of myself and others who hate Twilight and that other thing it spawned, thank you.

I used to think the same thing about Winds, but the only big reveal we got is R+L and that's it, no? The show sidestepped a bunch of plots, like fAegon, dance of dragons 2.0, any kind of Robert Rebellion facts. We know that Jon's resurrection in the books will be totally different. I wanna know how Jon really gets resurrected for real, I didn't care for the discount version of the show. 

It makes me feel bad for loving this world so much and investing in these characters. 

[mac123x]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wasn't Aemon a disgraced member of the Targaryan family?  I don't recall his entire history, but maybe bringing him up wouldn't win Jon any points?

He was the 3rd son of the 4th son of the king (Daeron II "The Good") and was shipped off to the citadel to become a maester because he was smart (and there were too many Targs around at the time, which had the potential to cause problems.)  He wasn't disgraced or anything, just far down on the succession list.

 

Later, when that list got severely trimmed down by accidental deaths and disease, Aemon was offered the crown but decided to let it go to his younger brother, Aegon V "The Unlikely".  To keep other Lords from using him in their political jockeying with the king, Aemon chose to join the Nightswatch.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Normades said:

I noticed that in the opening credits that  King's Landing is still represented by the stag.  Is this really correct?  I realize Cersei is a Baratheon by marriage, but everyone has always referred to her as Cersei Lannister.  The Baratheon's are pretty much wiped out and whatever remaining men Stannis had are most likely with Jon.  Shouldn't there be a lion on KL?

I've also noticed that KL is still Baratheon in the credits.

I would argue that's not right, even though Cersei was married to Robert.  When Qyburn proclaimed her Queen, it was "Cersei of the House Lannister"

[Tikichick]

In an episode so packed with many things happening I think some key details are easy to overlook in some of the quieter scenes that don't really seem to have much action going on.  Cersei's scene with Tyco falls into that category.  Significantly he plainly told her he most certainly is not a lord, it is not kindness, and they will be happy to discuss future plans with Cersei -- after the gold arrives.

I think someone was very astute last week in reasoning that in order to pay the debt Cersei has to get the gold to the Iron Bank.

I'm also wondering about what things specifically belonging to Cersei she wants back.  I'm guessing she's referring to Sansa and Tyrion.  We already know it won't be much of a challenge getting past Sansa's guards to attempt to abduct her from WF.  Sure would be a shame if they get thrown off by an "uncanny likeness" and wind up with the wrong sister.

[mac123x]

6 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Jackpot!  Here is a map that shows exactly where Blackwater Rush is, and its relative location(s) to both King's Landing and Dragonstone.  I believe the battle took place at the final crossing of the Blackwater Rush (just west of King's Landing), as the Lanny army was following the Gold Road.

The bottom edge of the maps you linked show a road approaching KL from the south-west (south of Tumbleton).  That's the Rose Road, which runs from Highgarden to Kings Landing, and would be the more likely route the gold / food trains would follow.  It's the same road that Renley was slowly marching up in season 2.  I don't think they would have gone out of their way to get north to the Gold Road.

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I've also noticed that KL is still Baratheon in the credits.

I would argue that's not right, even though Cersei was married to Robert.  When Qyburn proclaimed her Queen, it was "Cersei of the House Lannister"

I don't know why they didn't change it at the beginning of the season when they redid the CGI.  I'm guessing we won't see the credits change this entire season just for budget reasons, so we'll always have Pike and Oldtown even if the Greyjoys and Sam aren't in the episode.

[Katsullivan]

13 minutes ago, mac123x said:

He was the 3rd son of the 4th son of the king (Daeron II "The Good") and was shipped off to the citadel to become a maester because he was smart (and there were too many Targs around at the time, which had the potential to cause problems.)  He wasn't disgraced or anything, just far down on the succession list.

 

Later, when that list got severely trimmed down by accidental deaths and disease, Aemon was offered the crown but decided to let it go to his younger brother, Aegon V "The Unlikely".  To keep other Lords from using him in their political jockeying with the king, Aemon chose to join the Nightswatch.

In addition, Rhaegar and Aemon discussed the prophecies. I don't know if that made it into the TV show, but it's probably plot significant. 

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

The bottom edge of the maps you linked show a road approaching KL from the south-west (south of Tumbleton).  That's the Rose Road, which runs from Highgarden to Kings Landing, and would be the more likely route the gold / food trains would follow.  It's the same road that Renley was slowly marching up in season 2.  I don't think they would have gone out of their way to get north to the Gold Road.

I don't know why they didn't change it at the beginning of the season when they redid the CGI.  I'm guessing we won't see the credits change this entire season just for budget reasons, so we'll always have Pike and Oldtown even if the Greyjoys and Sam aren't in the episode.

The problem with the Rose Road (which I'd originally considered) is that there is NO way to get there, practicably, from Dragonstone.  What isn't shown on that map is the sheer SIZE of the King's Forest south of King's Landing, and the Terrain to the East of Kings Forest.   The Dorne Contingent for the Purple Wedding came up through that path, in Season 3.   The only way for the Dothraki to get that far south is down a river to the East of King's Landing, but that is impossible to do, without being detected.  Not to mention Stannis's shipwrecks all over Blackwater Bay. Terrain to the South is rough, and ocean facing cliffs abound, and the mountains hook around from Dorne to the East.  You'll have to find another map.

The Rush in Blackwater Rush is WEST of King's Landing, not south.  Rose Road (although it makes more sense for the Lanny's) is OUT because, writing and battle.  If you disagree, kindly show me your case for a Rose Road battle.  And how the Dothraki got there undetected.

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I was also considering Missandei's little speech about how Dany earned the loyalty of former slaves like her and while I'm still not loving the "white savior" feel of the whole thing, it shows a really marked contrast in Dany's behavior. How much actual freedom Missandei of the Unsullied have (in their ability to walk away from Dany if they choose) is a debatable point, but she made a huge deal about how Dany had become the Queen that they follow by choice. It's a very marked contrast to her demanding loyalty from Jon, for whom she's done absolutely nothing and shows little interest in the serious issue that Jon is presenting to her. 

And Stannis did ride to aid the Night's Watch when he got word that the Wildings were about to attack the Wall.  He was down to using mercenaries at that point - and he recognized if he was claiming to be King - he needed to act like one and protect the realm.  

Davos knows and should point this out to Dany.

On another matter - I thing Brienne knows about "No one" as well as LF.  As soon as Arya turned away, Brienne had a look of concern on her face.  And her look to me was more like "That doesn't sound good" rather than "Why wouldn't she tell me?"

There is no proof of her knowledge on the show (I don't know about the books), but Tarth is an Island off the eastern coast of Westeros. - close to  Essos with the free cities, including Braavos.  Brienne was all about learning how to fight, and the Faceless Men appears to be the only? or one of the few that will train women to fight.  Brienne's sense of honor would preclude her from inquiring about that order, but I would be surprised if she didn't know.

They don't have TV - tales of the Faceless Men makes for a great story.  Davos definitely would know about them given all of his smuggling work in Braavos, but he has his hands full with Dany right now.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I do think we will see Meera again -- and I certainly hope it involves her dear papa.  Holding my breath that the casting for Howland will measure up to all my curiosity and hopes.

And of course buried amongst that much discussed litany of titles is one that gets overlooked -- Queen of the Andals.

De facto Queen of the Andals, because...........Jorah the Andal!

You're right, we haven't heard "the Andals" in "titles, titles" in a couple of seasons, now, I think perhaps since King Bob bought the farm!

[stagmania]

20 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I used to think the same thing about Winds, but the only big reveal we got is R+L and that's it, no? The show sidestepped a bunch of plots, like fAegon, dance of dragons 2.0, any kind of Robert Rebellion facts. We know that Jon's resurrection in the books will be totally different. I wanna know how Jon really gets resurrected for real, I didn't care for the discount version of the show. 

I don't think it's about reveals; book readers have figured all that stuff out, anyway. I think it's about the story playing out in a different format before he got to do it in his. Not only did we see Jon come back to life and R+L=J get confirmed, but we saw Dany name Tyrion her hand and sail for Westeros, Arya decide not to be no one after all and come home, Jon end his watch and reclaim Winterfell, Bran become the Three-Eyed Raven, Cersei blow up the sept and seize King's Landing. These are huge, huge story developments, culminations of character arcs that GRRM carefully, painstakingly built to over decades. And now someone else did them first. 

[iMonrey]

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It's might not be the ONLY food left in Westeros, but I can't believe they would spend all that time in all the various storylines talking about food and the lack of it if Highgarden wasn't the source of a lot of the food required to survive the winter.  

I haven't actually noticed any particular emphasis on a lack of food or food hoarding for the impending long winter. We had Sansa talking about it while walking through Winterfell but that conversation was blended within the larger context of her taking charge of things in the north. Then we had Randyll Tarly talking about gathering grain but again, it was in the context of establishing where the army was at that point. 

We know this show only has nine more episodes to go. It's not really going to have time to delve into a protracted winter where people begin to starve for lack of provisions. So I don't really think food shortages are important, big-picture wise. It would of course be of concern within their reality but I don't get a sense that the writers are giving it much thought beyond filler dialogue so they can pay lip service to this long winter that's been forecast for the last seven years.

Bottom line - big picture, it doesn't really matter what Dany burns at this point.

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I really hope Dany will turn her attention North sooner rather than later. Because her dragons would be really useful against the army of the dead and she wouldn't have to worry about killing her own subjects.

I keep wondering how the dragons would even do in the cold north. I mean, technically they're giant reptiles, right? Could they even survive in frigid temperatures?

Will no one think of the dragons' well being?

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The Riverlands were the Tullys', but then the Freys' - so most definitely not pledged to Robb/The North anymore.

Did Arya release Edmure from the Frey dungeon after she killed them all? They really haven't addressed that have they? I would assume she would have released him to reclaim the Riverlands but the show doesn't seem much interested in addressing that issue.

[Tikichick]

6 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

De facto Queen of the Andals, because...........Jorah the Andal!

You're right, we haven't heard "the Andals" in "titles, titles" in a couple of seasons, now, I think perhaps since King Bob bought the farm!

Isn't it among Dany's laundry list?  I thought that was being rattled off, but I could be wrong.

I absolutely forgot Jorah carries that tagline.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Tikichick
Typo

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, dragonsbite said:

I think he saw that Arya needs it. The look on his face and the way his hand paused as both she and he held the dagger during the hand-off made me think some vision hit him at that moment. Perhaps he saw some of the things she's done. But perhaps he saw some future event that she'll do with the dagger.

Of course he saw Arya needed it.  It was for the awesome sparring with Brienne :D :D  

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Jon has something that Dany can take. In war between the Northern Army vs 3 Dragons+Dothraki+Unsullied, the outcome is clear.

Heck, all she has to do is fly her dragons to Winterfell and torch it from the Sky.

Of course, Dany would prefer it if he pulled a Torrhen Stark and bent the knee and spared the casualties.  

Jon has no advantage in this situation. He has nothing to offer, and he has nothing to threaten her with. 

Dany is being almost annoyingly generous in her dealings with her enemies and would-be enemies this season.

And for me THAT being the argument... that Dany has the right to control everything "because dragons" is the entire problem with the War for the Iron Throne.

Its like saying that an armed thug is exceedingly generous because they're asking me to surrender my car to them instead of murdering me and my family in the car and just taking it (which they will do if I don't surrender it to them). What gives them the right to take my car and do what they want with it and kill me if I disagree?

Dany is nothing more and nothing less than a despot in the truest sense of the term. She may dress it up, but she rules by authority of "has dragons" subject not to law, but only her own caprice. If she likes you, she'll forgo burning you alive for disobeying, if she dislikes you, she'll burn you alive... sometimes without even checking if you're innocent or not first. Her whim is law.

And the argument here is that Dany should just burn the very people she claims to want to rule and has the best interests of in mind because they won't bow down to the self-proclaimed goddess and savior Daenerys Stormborn Targaryean of the Many Titles She's Given Herself.

My counterargument is this... "A queen who doesn't protect her people is no queen at all."

If she wants to rule them then burning them alive shouldn't even be an option. How about proving to the North that you'll protect them (like you did with the slaves early on) so they would gladly accept you as their leader?

The only one even remotely in the right here is Jon... an elected monarch who is representing the best interests and will of the people who elected him and whose ONLY interest is protecting his people (i.e. ALL the people of Westeros) from a true supernatural terror that cannot be reasoned or bargained with and wants to kill them all.

Dany is no better than Cersei at this stage; both only interested in holding power over the people than in the people's well-being. Sansa, the Gatherer of Grain, is currently a better queen to her people than either of them.

[DarkRaichu]

47 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wasn't Aemon a disgraced member of the Targaryan family?  I don't recall his entire history, but maybe bringing him up wouldn't win Jon any points?

I thought he went to the wall voluntarily as to prevent any possible civil war with Rhaegar's dad???

Edited August 8, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Constantinople]

I'm still not convinced that Randyll Tarly would fight for Cersei instead of Daenerys.

During Robert's Rebellion, the Tarlys fought for the Tyrells/Targaryens.

It's "common rumor", for lack of a better phrase, that Cersei blew-up the Sept of Baelor, see Hot Pie telling Arya at the inn somewhere in the Riverlands.  Thus it's common rumor that Cersei murdered Mace Tyrell, Tarly's liege lord, and his liege lord's children, Margaery and Loras.

Cersei claims the explosion was an accident -- see her chat with Iron Bank rep in a previous episodie -- but the Sept just happens to explode from wildfire on the day of her trial, and she just happens not to be there?  That's one Seven Hells of a coincidence.

Nor is it enough, IMO, to be bribe Tarly by making him Warden of the South.  Tarly could get that anyway from Daenerys since there are no more TV Tyrells around who are men.

So Dany's use of Dothraki just doesn't seem enough reason for Tarly to forgo ancient allegiances in favor of someone with no claim to the throne.

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I thought he went to the wall voluntarily as to prevent any possible civil war with Rhaegar's dad???

That's correct. Aemon, as Aegon V's (Egg!) older brother, had a stronger claim to the Iron Throne. Aemon was already a maester at that point and wanted his younger brother to have the throne.  Aemon chose to go to the wall in order to best remove any possibility of people being torn in their devotion to Aegon. 

Egg sent his bff, Ser Duncan the Tall, to accompany Aemon to the wall, and safeguard his passage. 

[FnkyChkn34]

46 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

On behalf of myself and others who hate Twilight and that other thing it spawned, thank you.

I used to think the same thing about Winds, but the only big reveal we got is R+L and that's it, no? The show sidestepped a bunch of plots, like fAegon, dance of dragons 2.0, any kind of Robert Rebellion facts. We know that Jon's resurrection in the books will be totally different. I wanna know how Jon really gets resurrected for real, I didn't care for the discount version of the show. 

It makes me feel bad for loving this world so much and investing in these characters. 

I think in the books, it's just left that he's been stabbed, right?  So maybe he never actually dies.  Maybe his wounds aren't fatal.  (Disclaimer, I never finished book 5.  I got slogged down by trying to read 4 and 5 at the same time and only read about one-third of each.)

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm still not convinced that Randyll Tarly would fight for Cersei instead of Daenerys.

During Robert's Rebellion, the Tarlys fought for the Tyrells/Targaryens.

It's "common rumor", for lack of a better phrase, that Cersei blew-up the Sept of Baelor, see Hot Pie telling Arya at the inn somewhere in the Riverlands.  Thus it's common rumor that Cersei murdered Mace Tyrell, Tarly's liege lord, and his liege lord's children, Margaery and Loras.

Cersei claims the explosion was an accident -- see her chat with Iron Bank rep in a previous episodie -- but the Sept just happens to explode from wildfire on the day of her trial, and she just happens not to be there?  That's one Seven Hells of a coincidence.

Nor is it enough, IMO, to be bribe Tarly by making him Warden of the South.  Tarly could get that anyway from Daenerys since there are no more TV Tyrells around who are men.

So Dany's use of Dothraki just doesn't seem enough reason for Tarly to forgo ancient allegiances in favor of someone with no claim to the throne.

The entire Tarly plot exists to add some stakes to the story by involving Sam's family, as a known reference, and to drag out a foregone conclusion to the Dany vs Cersei battle.

I mean, just observe the discussion he has with Jaimie at King's Landing.

 

Jaimie: So glad you made it since Highgarden is in open rebellion.

Tarly: Are you kidding me? Cersei burns her enemies. (That's why I decided to come to King's Landing to make it more convenient for her to burn me!)

Jaimie: So... are you fighting for Cersei or Olenna?

Tarly: I dunno... On the one hand, Olenna is an old woman that's always been nice to me. But Cersei burns her enemies. (Which is why I'm here, being all indecisive about whether I'm her enemy or not).

Jaimie: Well, if you kill Olenna, you'll be the next Warden.

Tarly: Mmm.... that is interesting. 

Jaimie: So think about it OK?

Tarly: Yeah, I will. And if you don't hear from me, the next time we see each other, we'll be trying to kill each other.

Jaimie: Have a safe trip!

Tarly: Cheerio!

Edited August 8, 2017 by Katsullivan

[proserpina65]

4 hours ago, MV713 said:

Jeez, who can remember all this :)

I don't recall that scene at all...the references are pretty hard to pick up on when then span across 6 years.

I couldn't have quoted the whole speech, but I clearly remember the "chaos is a ladder" line.

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think in the books, it's just left that he's been stabbed, right?  So maybe he never actually dies.  Maybe his wounds aren't fatal.  (Disclaimer, I never finished book 5.  I got slogged down by trying to read 4 and 5 at the same time and only read about one-third of each.)

He is allegedly dead, though he wargs into Ghost if we are to believe Mel's visions where she sees him as a man, as a wolf, then a man again. The implication is that he is entering second life, so he would be most definitely dead.

I don't even know if the sentence makes sense.

[Francie]

 I haven't actually noticed any particular emphasis on a lack of food or food hoarding for the impending long winter. We had Sansa talking about it while walking through Winterfell but that conversation was blended within the larger context of her taking charge of things in the north. Then we had Randyll Tarly talking about gathering grain but again, it was in the context of establishing where the army was at that point.  

I couldn't disagree any more -- the lack of food for winter has been a running theme of this entire show!

Littlefinger:  We have enough food to last __ years (I forget). After that -- fewer peasants. (Stannis would be proud of the grammar at least).

There's been the crack about Hotpie being so fat is the reason why everyone else is starving. 

There's been the Queen of Thrones alternating between boasting and threatening that she's been the one feeding King's Landing. 

Then, to open this season:

We've the father/daughter, dead from murder/suicide, driven to that by near starvation in episode 1.

And Jaime talking about the need for food. 

It's been a lurking theme throughout -- these people should be planting and harvesting food and not spending all their time, energy, and resources on fighting each other!

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The entire Tarly plot exists to add some stakes to the story by involving Sam's family, as a known reference, and to drag out a foregone conclusion to the Dany vs Cersei battle.

I took it as plot driven too.  Which would be fine if the plot were driven by the character...

Oh well, it's still nice to see Herod Agrippa from I, Claudius

[Katsullivan]

Just now, Constantinople said:

I took it as plot driven too.  Which would be fine if the plot were driven by the character...

 

Thank you. I mean, jeez! It's like they're not even trying to make the story make any sense!

Yeah, it was cool. 

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

But why should the UK want to save the Louisiana Purchase from the Pirates of the Caribbean if Louisiana is not a UK colony? And if Louisiana is that desperate for the UK help (for a situation that mind you, the UK only have Louisiana's word even exists) --- why the heck won't Louisiana agree to be a colony to get this much-needed help?  

. . .

Oh - the Louisiana Purchase after it's been bought, I guess.  You know, the biggest hunk of land in the country. ;-)  (Told you I confused myself.  Bad example by me.)  Maybe they'll agree to be a colony after they know they'll survive the pirates?  We don't know that yet.

[Francie]

8 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And that's what it all really boils down to, isn't it. As Davos said, in the end it's not going to matter what corpse is rotting on the throne when the White Walkers make it past/through/around the Wall. 

And hence why Davos deserves that throne anymore than any of these other yahoos.*

 

 

*said with love. I love some of these yahoos. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Francie

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The entire Tarly plot exists to add some stakes to the story by involving Sam's family, as a known reference, and to drag out a foregone conclusion to the Dany vs Cersei battle.

I'd be ok with the entire Tarly plot there just to give us glimpses of Dickon... :-)  I suppose I need to watch Black Sails!

[Tikichick]

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm still not convinced that Randyll Tarly would fight for Cersei instead of Daenerys.

During Robert's Rebellion, the Tarlys fought for the Tyrells/Targaryens.

It's "common rumor", for lack of a better phrase, that Cersei blew-up the Sept of Baelor, see Hot Pie telling Arya at the inn somewhere in the Riverlands.  Thus it's common rumor that Cersei murdered Mace Tyrell, Tarly's liege lord, and his liege lord's children, Margaery and Loras.

Cersei claims the explosion was an accident -- see her chat with Iron Bank rep in a previous episodie -- but the Sept just happens to explode from wildfire on the day of her trial, and she just happens not to be there?  That's one Seven Hells of a coincidence.

Nor is it enough, IMO, to be bribe Tarly by making him Warden of the South.  Tarly could get that anyway from Daenerys since there are no more TV Tyrells around who are men.

So Dany's use of Dothraki just doesn't seem enough reason for Tarly to forgo ancient allegiances in favor of someone with no claim to the throne.

I can see your point . . . until your last line.  The Randall Tarly presented on screen will never accept someone on the throne who thinks savage Dothraki are an asset to Westerosi civilization.

[Katsullivan]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

Oh - the Louisiana Purchase after it's been bought, I guess.  You know, the biggest hunk of land in the country. ;-)  (Told you I confused myself.  Bad example by me.)  Maybe they'll agree to be a colony after they know they'll survive the pirates?  We don't know that yet.

It's still the same question - what's the UK incentive to help a non-colony that is refusing to become a colony?

"Maybe they'll agree to be a colony after they survive the pirates" is not good business or "empire-building" sense. 

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

I can see your point . . . until your last line.  The Randall Tarly presented on screen will never accept someone on the throne who thinks savage Dothraki are an asset to Westerosi civilization.

The Randall Tarly presented on screen is supposed to be a pragmatist who obeys Cersei because he's (rightfully) afraid of her propensity to use wildfire to torch her enemies. 

(Although he needs to sleep on this, and Jaimie is OK with letting him.)

Essentially, his character and arc make no sense. Everything at this point is just plot-by-numbers so don't expect it to. 

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wasn't Aemon a disgraced member of the Targaryan family?  I don't recall his entire history, but maybe bringing him up wouldn't win Jon any points?

Quite the opposite.  Aemon was a lower ranking son, but he was a ladies man in is day.  Since there were so many surplus Targ sons, he decided to go to the Citadel, in case the worst happened, and the oldest heir was unavailable, recreating a terrible fight for succession.  He loved his little brother Aegon, dearly, (Egg), and supported his ascension over his own, stepping aside when asked to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

Aemon is one of the truly heroic and totally "good" characters in a gigantic story written in multiple shades of gray.  And one of the most unknown Targs.....I doubt Dany is even aware of who Aemon was in the scheme of her Targ ancestry.  Most of Westeros has forgotten about Aemon Targaryan a long long time ago. 

[Haleth]

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'd be ok with the entire Tarly plot there just to give us glimpses of Dickon... :-)  I suppose I need to watch Black Sails!

Why, yes, yes you should.  

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

Quite the opposite.  Aemon was a lower ranking son, but he was a ladies man in is day.  Since there were so many surplus Targ sons, he decided to go to the Citadel, in case the worst happened, and the oldest heir was unavailable, recreating a terrible fight for succession.  He loved his little brother Aegon, dearly, (Egg), and supported his ascension over his own, stepping aside when asked to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

Aemon is one of the truly heroic and totally "good" characters in a gigantic story written in multiple shades of gray.  And one of the most unknown Targs.....I doubt Dany is even aware of who Aemon was in the scheme of her Targ ancestry.  Most of Westeros has forgotten about Aemon Targaryan a long long time ago. 

Would have been nice if we had time available for Lady Olenna to share some of her Targaryen recollections with Danaerys.

[benteen]

24 minutes ago, Francie said:

That's correct. Aemon, as Aegon V's (Egg!) older brother, had a stronger claim to the Iron Throne. Aemon was already a maester at that point and wanted his younger brother to have the throne.  Aemon chose to go to the wall in order to best remove any possibility of people being torn in their devotion to Aegon. 

Egg sent his bff, Ser Duncan the Tall, to accompany Aemon to the wall, and safeguard his passage. 

That's right.  He also sent all the prisoners in King's Land with him and that included Bloodraven, aka the future Three-Eyed Crow.

[FnkyChkn34]

16 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It's still the same question - what's the UK incentive to help a non-colony that is refusing to become a colony?

"Maybe they'll agree to be a colony after they survive the pirates" is not good business or "empire-building" sense. 

It's still an easy answer - because they are ALL going to die if they don't fight the pirates/WW first.  There will be no empire left to build or reign over when they are all dead, just as Davos said.

[TarotQueen]

23 hours ago, Francie said:

Yeah, but does that count when you're only "mostly dead?"

I love you for squeezing this reference into the convo.

Guys on Davos' wife ... her name is mayra and she has a Game of Thrones tv (not ice and fire book) wiki page where him discussing her with Melisandre in present tense (not Shireen oops) is right at the top.  so yeah ... that.

Edited August 8, 2017 by TarotQueen

[Mya Stone]

We've hidden dozens of posts. Off topic, rude, belittling...you know who you are. Be like the Night King and just CHILL. Warnings are the next step. Don't make me be a Stannis. 

 

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

I  think it ends up with Sam, Arya (so GRRM's wife doesn't divorce him) and maybe Tyrion during the next summer. Tyrion in Kings Landing, Sam maybe with the Nightsguard and Arya in winterfell.  Writing the history of what went down during the past winter.

Possible.  I've always thought that aside from Jon, Tyrion could well end up on the iron throne.  Maybe that would leave Jon as king in the north, or perhaps he dies.  I still think Dany dies, no matter what, although I am not happy about it.

5 hours ago, Heckler52317 said:

For my sanity I'm assuming there were multiple scorpions in the caravan- only one was left for Bronn to man...

IIRC they said there were three scorpions total.  I'm guessing the other two are at King's Landing.