S02.E13: Echo

[Boundary]

Wow, what a finale. And so many talking points, where to start?

 

I didn't call the Jared-killed-his-family thing, so for those who did, I salute you. But I did suspect that a Moscow faction was responsible and I think I was partially right. Way too much was made of the Kremlin infighting last season - General Zhukov's warning to Elizabeth!! - and it was apt that it was Claudia who brought confirmation. She also mentioned that she was also kept in the dark (I believe her too) but the extent of her disapproval is that the Center went behind Leanne and Emmett's backs. So Moscow used Kate, (it seems her "newbie" vibe to Philip was fake) to recruit Jared, who then went berserk on her parents - I suspect he had the advantage of total surprise. The Center approved: he kept his handler and they tried exfiltrating him when danger came near. Maybe they even pre-approved, hmmmm.

 

Since that was such a success, they will now try to have a go at Paige. So is the Pastor Groovyhair KGB? I don't think so, maybe he's a sympathiser. But do you guys recall how suspicious the kid who introduced Paige to the church was? If there's a recruiter, it could be that one. It would be years before Paige was ready anyway, so in the meantime she'd need a contemporary to guide her as well. But before all that, I think it will be juicy to see how protective Paige's parents get. Philip is ready to the unleash nuclear option: defect. For him, it's always been about the kids. But I liked his initial reaction to Elizabeth, "we swore". Those two might not have had marriage vows but I do believe that the vow to keep the kids away from it all outranks all others. Again, at least to Philip.

 

But I don't want to be unfair to Elizabeth. She panicked in the season opener, as well as in this ep, about her kids' safety. I think, when push comes to shove, and with no other options, she will defect too, in order to fight for Paige and Henry. In the pilot, Philip heard about the millions from the FBI if they defected and just got tempted (driven, I believe, by the need to provide for his family) but Elizabeth scorned at the idea. For her, protecting the kids isn't about money or comforts, but she will defect if Moscow leaves her no option. Except that in this case she believes there's still an option on the table. Others have said that she's all about Mother Russia, a fanatic, but I don't think so, not in this case at least. Paige has been shown to be seeking something to be passionate about. As her mother, Elizabeth is asking, "wouldn't this be that thing?" Of course, Philip is right, this would kill her. All season long, he's been dying inside over what he's had to do, all that murdering and rightly doesn't want the same for Paige. I think Philip will win the argument but will the Jennings win their argument over the Center? I can't wait to find out.

 

Oh finally, I don't think Nina's been sent to Moscow by the way. Oleg had a point when he said she'd done all that can reasonably be asked of her; that the success of the mission depended sorely on Stan ability to turn and not on Nina's efforts or lack thereof. However, after the failure, the Residentura needed to make a show of it - for Stan's benefit. She wasn't bundled into the back of a car, onto a container ship. She was led through the front door, in full view, during the day. This is to make Stan believe she's back in Russia for trial when, in fact, she's been promoted to some other post. I just don't know how they will bring her back to the show. I'd rather they write Stan out, if it was a choice between him and Nina. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by Boundary

[NitneLiun]

When I think about the difference between Elizabeth and Phillip, there is a scene from Patton that keeps coming to mind. When they were in Sicily, General Lucian Truscott said to Patton, "George, the difference between you and me is that I do this job because I was trained to do it. You do it because you love it."

 

Elizabeth is the idealist and ideologue. That gives her a broader and deeper perspective of her role and job than Phillip has. You would never hear Phillip say anything about "the cause" or "You're revolution is beautiful."  There is no doubt that he is a patriot or at least a Russian nationalist, but he clearly isn't an ideologue. He does what he does because he's trained to do it. Elizabeth does it because she loves the Cause and the Revolution. On some level, Phillip accepts the Soviet party line, but on another level, he loves his Camaro, his comfortable house, material comforts and money. 

[bingobangobungo]

I don't think the church guy is KGB. Would he risk getting arrested for a silly protest? I'm thinking they will have to choose between Mother Russia and Jesus as her passion

[crgirl412]

I'm already thinking about S3 and what I want to see:

 

More Claudia

 

More Charles Duluth

 

More Sandra

 

More Henry

 

More flashbacks (E & P's)

 

 

(All of these are being said in my head like "More cowbell.")

[stillshimpy]

I enjoyed this season a lot more than I did the first season, and I think this was a much better finale.  Still, I'm not too sure that Jared as the killer actually works that well. in fact, I'm fairly certain it doesn't.  I'm willing to overlook that, since at least it explains a lot about Jared's acceptance of who his parents were.  He already knew. It just didn't make sense to me that Jared found out his parents were spies, after their deaths, and his reaction was anything short of complete, blinding fury for being lied to his entire life. 

 

So at least that part is no longer bothering me.  

 

Claudia telling Elizabeth and Philip that they have to recruit Paige doesn't make sense from a lot of standpoints, particularly in light of a catastrophic failure with their recent attempt that Philip and Elizabeth know about (so it's a given they'd refuse on the grounds of all the familial murder).  So maybe the Center is simply using this as a tool to drive a wedge between Elizabeth and Philip again.  The Centre had to know how this was going to shake out, along what lines. Claudia had already known about Philip "liking it here too much" (or whatever it was that Elizabeth reported and led to them both being kidnapped by Claudia et al last season) . 

 

So they'd have to at least suspect that Philip would be adamantly opposed and that Elizabeth would feel the lure of "Like mama, like daughter, I'm so proud!" of her very own disciple to the cause.  Elizabeth is just as devoted to her cause as any Christian has ever been to their Faith.  So maybe the Center is up to something else. 

 

Presumably Oleg will save Nina from whatever awaits her, but I was so glad Stan finally acted like an agent, vs. a lovesick boy when it came to Nina.  He just took far too long to realize she might be playing him and I'm not sure he ever really did.  I think he just wasn't quite ready to imperil the entire country for her. 

 

 

 

I don't get why Arkady would make that comment about saying "I love you" too much. It could only work against Nina.

 

It's possible he just assumed that Stan would believe that was information they'd beaten out of Nina.  He did see her beaten up, or at least the aftermath of that.  Although, Stan ought to know the difference between "make it look good" injuries and injuries that still left Nina looking vulnerable and fetching.  I feel for her, actually, she just wanted to do things like send caviar home and instead she got turned into an asset/agent/lure because she cared that her friend had been murdered.  

Edited May 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[whiporee]

I think it was Arkady's "Don't tell her you love her so much. Russian women don't respect that" that stopped Stan. it opened a few things up -- one, that she'd been telling Arkady a lot about them together and two, that maybe Nina doesn't respect him. Treason's a big price to pay to save someone you realize maybe doesn't feel about you the way you feel about her.  What i don't know is whether Arkady was being kind, or whether he was being smug. Either way, it cost him the mission. 

 

In addition to it being a fantastic twist, I think this latest order from the Centre was to remind us that the Soviets are, indeed, the bad guys. We can pull for P&E, but the KGB are bad. Claudia's explanation of the second-genertation-plan's failure, and then her exuberance in explaining how it should work was scarily awesome. Of course that's what they would do -- that's why back in the premier, Leanne told Liz not to tell the Centre she didn't necessarily want kids. It doesn't make sense they would want their spies to be tied down to that kind of responsibility unless there was a second plan in play. They are asking these people who have given their lives to the cause to breed for it as well, to sacrifice their children to the KGB's cause. That's pretty close a definition of evil. So KGB=bad. 

 

Maybe there's a show in Moscow called The Russians, where Viktor and Eleyna are presented with the same orders from the CIA. :) 

[NitneLiun]

In a way, Jared was very lucky. The KGB could have ordered Claudia to set the honey trap instead of Kate.

[sistermagpie]

So Moscow used Kate, (it seems her "newbie" vibe to Philip was fake) to recruit Jared, who then went berserk on her parents - I suspect he had the advantage of total surprise. The Center approved: he kept his handler and they tried exfiltrating him when danger came near. Maybe they even pre-approved, hmmmm.

 

 

Why couldn't she have done that and be a newbie? Perhaps a more experienced handler would have led to a different outcome for Jared. Not that I'm blaming her for it, just saying that Kate seemed to stay the same level throughout to me--she knew what she was doing, but she wasn't highest caliber. 

 

I think it was Arkady's "Don't tell her you love her so much. Russian women don't respect that" that stopped Stan. it opened a few things up -- one, that she'd been telling Arkady a lot about them together and two, that maybe Nina doesn't respect him. Treason's a big price to pay to save someone you realize maybe doesn't feel about you the way you feel about her.  What i don't know is whether Arkady was being kind, or whether he was being smug. Either way, it cost him the mission.

 

 

Whatever Stan's reaction to that line, I don't think that was the thing that made him turn back. He's more motivated by his loyalty to the US than whether or not Nina loves him.

[Milburn Stone]

I think this episode settled the question, "Who does Nina really love, Stan or Oleg?" Her last look to Oleg--full of tenderness, full of understanding of how he must feel even as she is the one being sacrificed--versus her last facial expression as she saw Stan in the car, which was more dispassionate--told the tale. But wait--her look at Stan had no hate in it, which you might have expected toward someone who had sealed her doom. And maybe she was "playing" Oleg in that last glance, in the hope that he still somehow can be her savior a couple of chess moves down the road. Okay, I'm back to not knowing again.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[picklesprite]

Oh! I just remembered something--as far as we know, Nina still has that roll of money that Oleg gave her.  Possibilities there!

[Loandbehold]

Oh! I just remembered something--as far as we know, Nina still has that roll of money that Oleg gave her.  Possibilities there!

If nothing else, she might be able to bribe the people taking her to the airport/ship to the Soviet Union. I still see Nina as in it for Nina. The look she gave Oleg could have been real tenderness, or one designed to have him use his family's influence to help her get out from this situation. And, the look she gave Stan could be to get him to help her out when she gets back, assuming she is capable of doing that. Since she's being sent back to the USSR for her trial and execution, I don't think she believes she owes the USSR any more loyalty. I am glad that it seems she'll be back next season. And not just b/c AM is so gorgeous. She is a fantastic and beguiling character. I look forward to see where they take her next season.

[xyzzydude]

I can't believe I read people here saying Stan is a jerk for betraying Nina (actually, failing to betray his country for Nina), when Nina has been betraying him all season!  I think Stan will make a nice recovery next season because quite frankly the show needs strong rivals for P&E.  One of the most interesting aspects of Season 1 was the jeopardy that Stan would figure out P&E.  That was completely absent from this season (largely replaced by jeopardy from Larrick) and it needs to come back.  

 

We know Nina will be back next season but I think it will be in the same way that Vasily came back this season... scenes back in Russia.  Perhaps she's now also working at a dreary facility in Siberia where what she learned can be put to use, or maybe during her trial things she's learned about the illegals program will put P&E in jeopardy or result in orders that put them in jeopardy. Some people said the fact that Nina went out the front door and not bundled out the back was evidence that her arrest was a sham.  Don't forget that's also how Vasily was taken out to go home to face the music. 

 

Also, Nina got a hunk of cash from Oleg but I wouldn't assume she still has it.  Assuming she really was arrested, I'm pretty sure the KGB knows how to be thorough searching her and her belongings and taking everything away from her.  In fact the wad of money could seal her fate if they find it on her... because how could she have legitimately acquired it? 

Edited May 23, 2014 by xyzzydude

[Boundary]

Nina could've made a run for it, even without Stan. With a wad of cash from Oleg, and a clear wink from Arkady that he wouldn't look really hard, she had a better chance than most. Perhaps she really is patriotic, and the conversations with Oleg have been slowly swaying me towards that direction. Maybe she really believed that a trial, after all she'd done, was inevitable.

 

 

I think it was Arkady's "Don't tell her you love her so much. Russian women don't respect that" that stopped Stan.

 

I know there's been a few comments that Arkady made a mistake or was simply playing Stan. My own view is it was neither. He asked Stan, "you really do love her, don't you" (or words to that effect) and Stan's silent answer said it all. Then Arkady went on to say what he said. I just think that, at the end of the day, Stan wasn't going to betray his country for anyone. And Oleg knew it, his desperation over the last few episodes was clear. 

[picklesprite]

From a classic storytelling point of view, the cash is akin to Chekov's famous gun dictum--if it shows up in the first act, you've got to use it at some point. Otherwise it has no business being there. When Oleg gave Nina the cash, it wasn't the first act, but it has to be used somehow, or else we have to see it *not* be used in some pivotal way.

I promise to leave the cash alone now. : )

Edited May 23, 2014 by picklesprite

[beeble]

The stakes suddenly soared! They have no choice. I'm guessing that Paige has been observed for a few years. She easily could have been a wild child (ok, not that easily) or at least a goofball like Henry.  Anyway, it is going to be a hard sell.  Paige was more moved by the nonviolent element. She loves the idea of sacrificing oneself for an ideal but in a very 14-year-old's way. I doubt she'll be too keen on having sex with Defense department nerds or getting whipped by an ambassador, let alone killing anyone. 

[PinkRibbons]

When Nina confessed to Arkady in season 1, didn't he say that since she came forward herself, they would take execution off the table at her trial? If that still goes, then the worst that could happen is Nina ending up in some God-awful Siberian prison. But she's a survivor, and she only has to make it to the end of the decade when all hell will break loose on the USSR.

 

I think that if they are in fact taking her back to Russia (and not just putting on a show for Stan), she may score a slightly more comfortable prison cell if they want her to lecture other agents about her time double (triple?)-crossing the US government.

[TimWil]

Here's what I see happening to Nina:

She is returned to Moscow to face trial. It's revealed that Oleg is an only child, his parents are elderly and his mother is dying. Nina discovers she's pregnant and Oleg gets his father to pull the necessary strings to get Nina released. She lives with Oleg's parents until the baby (a son) is born. Oleg's father and Oleg, of course, are well aware that Stan might be the biological father but they never voice this suspicion with the mother. The mother dies having seen her grandson being born, getting to hold him in her arms and finally seeing her son married and "settled." Oleg and Nina return to DC. Stan is informed about the baby by Arkady and is given the blood tests that prove the baby is his. They use this to try to turn him for good.

[Boundary]

Wow, TimWil. Dear me that's conceivable. 

[Milburn Stone]

I think Stan will make a nice recovery next season because quite frankly the show needs strong rivals for P&E.  One of the most interesting aspects of Season 1 was the jeopardy that Stan would figure out P&E.  That was completely absent from this season (largely replaced by jeopardy from Larrick) and it needs to come back.  

 

I agree. The fury Stan is going to feel when he discovers the Russian spies have been right under his nose will be awesome to behold.

[Happy to be here]

The stakes suddenly soared! They have no choice. I'm guessing that Paige has been observed for a few years. She easily could have been a wild child (ok, not that easily) or at least a goofball like Henry.  Anyway, it is going to be a hard sell.  Paige was more moved by the nonviolent element. She loves the idea of sacrificing oneself for an ideal but in a very 14-year-old's way. I doubt she'll be too keen on having sex with Defense department nerds or getting whipped by an ambassador, let alone killing anyone.

 

 

But that's the thing.  That's not what they want to use her for.  Its the next generation of spycraft.  Elizabeth and Philip have to go through people like an ambassador and Poor Martha to get information.  They would never ever ever pass the background checks themselves.....buuttttt Paige would.  Paige is an American citizen born on American soil who went to American schools.  She is the wet dream for Mother Russia.  She could quite literally be Stan's boss.  Be CIA,   FBI or a future President's press secretary  or hell  a future President.    The Centre doesn't want a spy they want a double agent.  

 

<----Edited just because.  

Edited May 23, 2014 by ChaosTheory

[sistermagpie]

The stakes suddenly soared! They have no choice. I'm guessing that Paige has been observed for a few years. She easily could have been a wild child (ok, not that easily) or at least a goofball like Henry.

 

 

LOL! Gotta stick up for Henry here. He's not a goofball, he's just 11. And he's actually pretty smart and funny, just about the things 11 year olds care about. I think he's actually a lot wilier than Paige, and a better liar. Basically, Paige is like Elizabeth with her idealism and Henry's more like Philip--he's got certain natural spying skills that Paige doesn't have. We don't know how he'll deal with it when he's old enough to start noticing the weird stuff his parents do.

 

But that's the thing.  That's not what they want to use her for.  Its the next generation of spycraft.  Elizabeth and Philip have to go through people like an ambassador and Poor Martha to get information.  They would never ever ever pass the background checks themselves.....buuttttt Paige would

 

 

Exactly. The stupidest thing to do with Paige would be to try to send her on missions like her parents. The point is to make her as upright and boring a citizen as possible and then just have her pass along documents from her classified job. She's a potential Fred or a turned Stan. She's a public face, she doesn't work in the shadows.

[beeble]

In a way, Jared was very lucky. The KGB could have ordered Claudia to set the honey trap instead of Kate.

 

 

Claudia would have rocked that boy's world and then some.

[magdalene]

More than anything this season finale makes me want to know how these characters will deal with the not so distant future of Glasnost and the end of the Soviet Union. I want to know how Elizabeth and Philip would react to it. Especially Elizabeth. How the likes of Arkady and Oleg  would fare under the new World order.

 

I wish the series would be around long enough to show us this future.

[xyzzydude]

Claudia would have rocked that boy's world and then some.

I can't help but flash to a scene in Margo Nightingale's other series, The Millers. When Margo's character is found to be having an affair she motions over her body and says "Once you've had this, it's hard to quit".

More than anything this season finale makes me want to know how these characters will deal with the not so distant future of Glasnost and the end of the Soviet Union. I want to know how Elizabeth and Philip would react to it. Especially Elizabeth. How the likes of Arkady and Oleg would fare under the new World order.

I wish the series would be around long enough to show us this future.

Oleg would be one of the post communist Russian oligarchs who grabbed billions after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Edited May 24, 2014 by xyzzydude

[dr pepper]

Be funny to see a scene set 10 years from now at KGB headquarters. The chiefs of each national unit of the service are sitting around a table. An aide comes in with a huge stack of manila envelopes and throws them on the table with a crash.

 

Aide: Tomorrow you all have to start spying on each other. But first, here are all the illegals for you to divide among yourselves. Also i've put some of my new business cards in, because i'm quitting to join my cousin's cheap vodka delivery service!

 

Nina (ukranian national chief): But we'll have to clear eveybody all over again, we cannot predict their loyalties!

 

Oleg (russian national chief): I have always felt more comfortable with corrupt agents, it's more fun.

 

Stan (belarus national chef): Maybe i can get amnesty now...

 

Oleg: From the US government, perhaps. From your ex-wife, i think not. Here, let me buy you some cheap vodka.

Edited May 24, 2014 by dr pepper

[Shriekingeel]

Oleg would be a big-time oligarch. He's connected, and he gets how Westerners think. He'd be one of those guys with miniature giraffes in his house.

[Boundary]

I've been thinking about Paige's suspicions.  Elizabeth's desire to teach her kids to be good young communists (and joining the ranks) is a pie in the sky but she must have a fear of what might happen if something happens to her and Philip. A letter like Leanne's or having someone else explain are both unsatisfactory. Paige or Henry could end up so angry at being lied to for their whole lives, affecting them even after both parents have died. And a posthumous letter would make those feelings even worse. The only way to salvage, or at least manage, the damage that's sure to happen is to be truthful. Paige shouldn't be recruited but if she's kept in the dark and left alone by the Center (a huge proviso) then sooner rather than later she will cut off her parents from her life if her suspicions aren't allayed. But is the security risk of her knowing worth it if she cant then be recruited? Can she be told and trusted not to run to Stan? And telling her, wouldn't that make her just cut her parents from her life sooner?

 

We forget how dedicated Philip and Elizabeth are, arranged marriage and kids for the sole reason of enabling their spy craft. So the way the Center sees it is that 2nd generation Illigals are as much, if not more so, their property. But if this is their breaking point, watching Philip and Elizabeth going rogue will too good. Which means it's not going to happen, next season Paige will be told the truth about her parents and her reaction to that will still be interesting. 

[Catherinewriter]

Sister Magpie, good point about the paster, converting hundreds to Christianity while being a KGB spy. And I wonder about commenters' suggestions that different people are KGB. I don't know a lot about the history of infiltration, but were there really THAT many KGB plants, of various ages and in various occupations? Just curious.  

 

And speaking of occupations, who else is involved in Philip's travel agency. Are they all KGB or just he? And isn't it a little bit off plot that neither Paige nor Henry has ever visited the office. And is Martha allowed to call Philip at the office?

 

Don't mean to be picky, I love the series. Am just seeing things I didn't see earlier.

 

More Clauria    Has anyone heard about a new series next fall with Martindale. Something other than the terrible waste of her time (and everyone else's) that she's in now. I hope, I hope, I hope

Yes, here it is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3714720/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_1    Wasn't Krazinski in The Office. I hope this is good for all of them, and for us, the loyal audience. But I also hope this won't keep her out of The Americans. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by Catherinewriter

[sistermagpie]

And speaking of occupations, who else is involved in Philip's travel agency. Are they all KGB or just he? And isn't it a little bit off plot that neither Paige nor Henry has ever visited the office. And is Martha allowed to call Philip at the office?

 

 

Seems like just Philip and Elizabeth are KGB at the travel agency they both run. Martha doesn't call Philip at the office, she calls a number for "Clark" that gets relayed to Philip by the Centre's switchboard person who used to be George. However many Illegals there were no, there's no way there's so many that they're sitting around for years creating whole institutions that are anti-Soviet and getting themselves arrested just to recruit one girl who's already got KGB parents--by turning her onto something that's very American and not very Soviet. Like any conspiracy, it attempts to make the world simple and controlled in ways that it isn't. The world is full of belief systems. Paige happened to fall into this one. Philip and Elizabeth were raised in a different one. Stan was drawn to another one. We saw how the KGB went after Jared.

Edited May 24, 2014 by sistermagpie

[SimoneS]

I didn't think that there was any doubt that Nina loves Oleg. Her resistance to his initial courtship was genuine. OIeg eventually won her heart. Unless the writers change direction in the future, there is no way that Nina is in love with Stan. If she was falling in love with him, Stan put an end to those feelings when he killed Vlad.

 

I think that Nina is a patriot who thinks that she deserves to be punished which is why she did not run. When Stan blackmailed her into giving secrets, she was not happy with it, but I don't think that she realized how this treachery could hurt ordinary innocent Russians. Vlad's death shook Nina out of that delusion so she confessed Arkady hoping to redeem herself.

 

Oleg would be one of the post communist Russian oligarchs who grabbed billions after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

 

I was thinking exactly this. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by SimoneS

[magdalene]

If Nina really fell for Stan I would start to doubt her instincts and her intelligence. Thankfully according to the writers themselves Nina's feelings for Oleg are genuine.

[dramachick]

I'm really looking forward to next season:

 

Phillip and Elizabeth at odds over what to do about Paige... 

 

Claudia back and in charge... 

 

Stan trying to redeem his pitiful self...

 

And the love story of Nina and Oleg!

 

[Haleth]

Late to the party. I can't believe Jared killed his parents after his Oscar winning freak out upon finding their bodies. However I did feel that for the past two episodes he seemed rather nonchalant about all the shocking reveals.

And Stan sucks. Not for throwing Nina under the bus or betraying his country, but because he was dumb enough to fall for Nina's charms and still has no idea he was being played.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Haleth

[Milburn Stone]

I think that Nina is a patriot who thinks that she deserves to be punished which is why she did not run.

 

Interesting. I think I agree with you. And, at root, Stan is also. I admire him for making the final decision he made.

 

Go figure. I'm an American, so I kind of like it when other Americans don't threaten my security by trading vital secrets to our enemies.

 

I never could see Stan as a traitor, but I thought he had some clever endgame in mind, where he'd convince the Soviets he was giving them what they wanted (so they'd let Nina go), but was giving them a fake instead. Or would find some way to turn things around so that "giving them what they wanted" was a trap designed to out Oleg and Arkady as spies and have them deported. In the end he chose a much simpler solution. One that was difficult, but truest to his heart.

[soapfaninnc]

I don't blame Stan for not turning traitor. That's the first decent thing he did since the whole Nina thing started. It was him sleeping with Nina, playing her, making her think he'd protect her no matter what... ignoring his wife and kid and acting like he couldn't understand why his wife was running off to boink someone else? That's why I think Stan is a douche. He's not as clever as he thinks he is.

Edited May 26, 2014 by soapfaninnc

[lucindabelle]

I agree that. Nina and. Oleg are in love. The first time they were in bed together and she teased him about call and response she looked genuinely happy. They get each other... Patriots who enjoy some capitalist accoutrements. Were only 9 years away from the end of the whole thing. Glasnost and perestroika happen as much because the Russians want blue jeans and food as because of Reagan.

For me, bs on jared, , even with his being a teenage boy who's just had sex for the first time. His blown backwards by shock at the bodies was too moving and he didn't know anyone was there... So now in addition to being a killer he's a great actor? If they did plan this from the beginning they didn't think it through, for me me the show jumped the shark right there.

Second generation illegals were more used for desk job sort of things but the few times that happened, according to what I've read, it didn't last. It's just stupid for the center to believe a child can be brought up in this country with no reason to question her school indoctrination and then be so completely turned... Philip nd Elizabeth grew up in the Soviet Union and believed in it's values. Paige does not. And while she wouldbt be used for the kind of emotional manipulation honeypot thing, Elizabeth doesn't know That yet so it looks like she's willing to prostitute her daughter.

Meh.

I'll still watch buts the Jared thing shook my respect for this show completely. Just no longer buy it.

Edited May 25, 2014 by lucindabelle

[Loandbehold]

 

I never could see Stan as a traitor, but I thought he had some clever endgame in mind, where he'd convince the Soviets he was giving them what they wanted (so they'd let Nina go), but was giving them a fake instead. Or would find some way to turn things around so that "giving them what they wanted" was a trap designed to out Oleg and Arkady as spies and have them deported. In the end he chose a much simpler solution. One that was difficult, but truest to his heart.

This isn't something that Stan could have done on his own. He would have needed scientific specs done that are close to what stealth is, but being a little off so that it would be able to fool whatever expert looked at them. And, Stan couldn't do that without revealing why, or in the short time frame that he had. 

[Milburn Stone]

This isn't something that Stan could have done on his own. He would have needed scientific specs done that are close to what stealth is, but being a little off so that it would be able to fool whatever expert looked at them. And, Stan couldn't do that without revealing why, or in the short time frame that he had. 

 

I agree, but I guess I thought the show would do a whole "we've been deliberately withholding information from you, the viewer" thing. So that we'd find out that Gaad was in on it, and the whole national security apparatus was in on it, etc. That would be a cheat in a sense, but one that I've been trained by television to expect! I'm glad the show didn't resort to this.

[SimoneS]

For me, bs on jared, , even with his being a teenage boy who's just had sex for the first time. His blown backwards by shock at the bodies was too moving and he didn't know anyone was there... So now in addition to being a killer he's a great actor? If they did plan this from the beginning they didn't think it through, for me me the show jumped the shark right there.

 

I agree. The way the actor played the scene where Jared found his family dead makes it impossible for me to believe that he killed his family. Despite the writers claiming otherwise, I think there was a rewrite or change in direction with that story as the season was filmed.

[90PercentGravity]

Someone posted earlier in the thread that the writers planned it from the beginning, but I think they said they didn't tell the actor until halfway through?

[Espy]

I don't know. Would getting Paige to become a KGB spy be that much harder than turning any one of the other American KGB assets, like Fred? There are many Americans who spied for the Soviet Union as adults despite being born and raised there. What if Philip and Elizabeth didn't disclose their own involvement but let another agent recruit Paige - it'd accomplish the same goal without the personal betrayal Paige is going to feel when she finds out her parents have been lying to her all along, which is going to be the main barrier to recruiting her.

[lucindabelle]

If the writers planned it but the boy acting it didn't know, acting wise, it's just the same as if they invented it halfway through. Because, acting wise, you have to know your motivations. So he played that scene as an innocent, but his character was NOT innocent, which makes the character have to be a great actor, which is preposterous. I hate it when they pull that bs in mystery dramas too. They think they're preventing spoilers but really they are forcing bad acting choices that make no sense on rewatch. A teenager besotted by sec and fanaticism is different than an innocent swimmer, not to mention as others have pointed out how deceptive Leanne was to her old friend Elizabeth. I fully believe that e actress Leanne did not know the backstory at tht point bc she played it as if there was nothing going on.

Either way color me unimpressed that I'm supposed to accept it becaus "the writers" knew. If the actors playing their parts didn't have the facts their characters would have, than in fact, it didn't happen.

Which is why I maintain show jumped shark right there.

It is true that we see many people in the show brought up as Americans who become spies. Each one has a very solid reason for doing it.l, racial injustice, science, etc. Pauge just "looking for a cause" does not rise to that and she does not share Philip and Elizabeth's childhoods of deprivation. If the KGB wanted to go that way they should be encouraging the agents to question US values to the kids all along.

And I do not believe that merely avoiding organized religion and materialism is the same as questioning American values, I actually find that idea preposterous. Plenty of patriots do the same. You can even be a conscientious objector and be a patriot. So I think it would be next to impossible on huge grounds of nothing to "turn" Paige.

Even Jared needed to be sexually in thrall. But as I said, I don't buy this storyline anyway.

Edited May 26, 2014 by lucindabelle

[Boundary]

Either way color me unimpressed that I'm supposed to accept it becaus "the writers" knew. If the actors playing their parts didn't have the facts their characters would have, than in fact, it didn't happen.

Which is why I maintain show jumped shark right there.

 

Very good point. It looks like a rewrite because it's obvious that when episode 1 was filmed it was mystery who killed the Connors and the writers themselves didn't know at that point. It being Jared doesn't add up and he shouldn't have been chosen but it lead to an intriguing premise so I can see why the writers chose that direction. The show runners can't just claim they knew all along, they need to seriously rejig the explanations for why Leanne, Jared and even the Center did what they did. It doesn't add up and someone needs to spend the summer on algebra.

[Milburn Stone]

It looks like a rewrite because it's obvious that when episode 1 was filmed it was mystery who killed the Connors and the writers themselves didn't know at that point.

 

I just don't know about that. I picture myself one of the writers, or the show runner, and I just don't see myself being OK with not knowing the "why" behind an important event I've created. Even if they came up with the murder first, they wouldn't have left the writers' room without someone saying, "OK, guys, the murder is cool and everything, and I realize we haven't figured out who did it, but we're not leaving this room until we do figure that out." Any other scenario is too risky, because what if they don't figure it out? What if they find themselves with no plausible explanation when it's time to write the season finale? No professional (other than maybe Veena Sud) would create that dilemma for himself.

 

Now whether the show is guilty of misdirecting the audience, through misdirecting the actor, that's another question. That does seem to be the case.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[Happywatcher]

Just rewatched. I call BS. No way was this the outcome when the motel killing was filmed.

 

Paige turning is complete BS. Sure. some MaryKnoll sisters were down for the pink, but most of the Christians who were anti-nuke were in no way Soviet, and never even thought of it.

[sistermagpie]

I fully believe that e actress Leanne did not know the backstory at tht point bc she played it as if there was nothing going on.

 

 

There was no backstory for Leanne in that scene. Emmett and Leanne found out about the stuff with Kate in the hotel room. When she spoke to Elizabeth she thought Jared was just a normal US kid.

 

Just rewatched. I call BS. No way was this the outcome when the motel killing was filmed.

 

 

I don't see any reason to doubt it was always planned. The writers said it was, everything in the season led up to this. I agree that there are big problems with the way it was supposed to go down, especially with Jared's actor essentially playing innocent in his early scenes--he really should have known so he could at least play some tells that the kid was lying. I have a lot of problems with how this was supposed to go down and I think there's stuff they needed to think through more. But I don't see how that means they must have been flying blind early on with no idea that Jared was the killer. They always knew, they just didn't play it out in a way that holds up for all of us. All they thought they had to do when filming the hotel killing was not show Jared actually in the room when he saw the bodies.

[lucindabelle]

But the writers knowing and the actors not is the same as it not happening. All we can judge by is what we see.we don't look into the writers heads but we do batch performances. Jared played the discovery like shock. So he was shocked.

It's just the same as when a writer says what his novel is "about," themes, symbolism. If it isn't there, it isn't there. S... I don't care if they always planned it. If the actors didn't play it that way, then it didn't happen that way.

[mattie0808]

She doesn't trust them because she thinks they're lying. If they tell her how they've been lying the dynamic would change.

Not necessarily for the better! It's one thing to think your parents are having an affair. It's another to find out they've been lying to you your entire life about pretty well every single thing you think you know about them/yourself and are working to destroy the country you've called home since you were born. Elizabeth seems to think that because Paige is "searching for something" that she'll be open to anything. Maybe, but I don't buy it.

 

 

 

I thought P&E have been gently guiding their kids toward their belief system.  They don't encourage material things, they don't go to church, push the science, push the alternate view than what is on TV (esp Reagan), etc.

Not encouraging a focus on material things (because they won't get Henry the video game? Paige did somehow have hundreds of dollars lying around without working?) isn't the same as encouraging socialism, or even a more generic form of liberalism. They don't go to church, but until recently with Paige don't seem to have been ANTI church. And I don't recall anything said to the kids about Reagan? The Jennings are supposed to be bland, middle-of-the-road, in no way notable middle class Americans. Makes sense, and is why the plan to recruit the kids of illegals is so risky (even if the kids aren't complete, total sociopaths like Jared). I think they should have given the green light to all Illegals to start talking to their kids openly about anti-religion, anti-capitalism, pro-socialist beliefs, so at the very least, that groundwork could be laid before the "tell her who you really are and get her ready for a life of espionage!" orders. Even with Americans they have turned through either blackmail or because those Americans were true believers, A LOT of work usually goes into understanding them, laying a foundation, etc. And these are teens whose world has been destroyed. At least take the same level of care that you would with adult strangers!

 

 

 

More than anything this season finale makes me want to know how these characters will deal with the not so distant future of Glasnost and the end of the Soviet Union

YES. 1,000 times YES. Whenever this show ends, I just NEED TO SEE THIS. I'm still disappointed we didn't see their (well, Phillip's) reaction to the USA hockey win in '80, lol. The dissolution of everything they've worked for and believed in -- and what they do after? -- it'll be just awful if we don't get that.

 

 

 

Emmett and Leanne found out about the stuff with Kate in the hotel room. When she spoke to Elizabeth she thought Jared was just a normal US kid.

Except that they had already been approached by the Center to tell Jared the truth and recruit him and had said no. That they didn't know the Center had gone behind their back to do so anyway doesn't mean that everything was just hunky-dory and totally normal, and I remain skeptical that they wouldn't think there was any particular need to give P/E the heads up on that for Paige's sake.

 

And I say again, boy did that conversation/argument between Jared and his parents about Kate and his recruitment escalate to head shots for his entire family (and him happily heading down for an alibi-providing swim) AWFULLY QUICKLY! Sheesh!

Edited May 27, 2014 by mattie0808

[Milburn Stone]

But the writers knowing and the actors not is the same as it not happening.

 

I get your point, but the issue has been raised by another poster, "Did the writers know?" On that issue, I agree with lucindabelle that they did.

[sistermagpie]

Except that they had already been approached by the Center to tell Jared the truth and recruit him and had said no. That they didn't know the Center had gone behind their back to do so anyway doesn't mean that everything was just hunky-dory and totally normal, and I remain skeptical that they wouldn't think there was any particular need to give P/E the heads up on that for Paige's sake.

And I say again, boy did that conversation/argument between Jared and his parents about Kate and his recruitment escalate to head shots for his entire family (and him happily heading down for an alibi-providing swim) AWFULLY QUICKLY! Sheesh!

 

 

Agreed. But if the idea was that the Centre approached them and they said no and thought it was finished with, they might have just shut up about it and decided to let Philip and Elizabeth deal with the question for themselves in a few years. I wonder, too, if there might not have been a difference of opinion in the Connors house as well. We don't know much about Emmett or Leanne, really, but Leanne was the one who wanted Jared to know the truth with that letter. They might have not spoken about it to the Jennings because it wasn't completely settled between them. Like maybe Leanne went along with Emmett's feelings about not telling Jared--he's the one that flipped out in the hotel (AWFULLY QUICKLY!). These people are used to compartmentalizing so if they decided not to talk to the Jennings about it, they could do it convincingly.