S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[maystone]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Ed Sheeran & co were traveling to Riverrun 

Ah. Yeah, I missed that. Thank you.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

the old 3-eyed Raven showed more personality too

Yes, but the old three eye Raven was at least 20-30 years older, not a 8 - 10 year old child.

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes, but the old three eye Raven was at least 20-30 years older, not a 8 - 10 year old child.

I wished I was that tall when I was 10 :P

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

I wished I was that tall when I was 10 :P

Yeah, me too, show Bran is about 16, I think, basing this on Sophie saying Sansa is 18 or 19 now.

[screamin]

I'm wondering just what it's going to be like for poor Sansa when Arya comes back next week, if she's sporting the same weird, flat indifferent affect she had through her scene with Hot Pie. With Bran acting weirdly flat and creepy AND Arya acting weirdly flat and creepy, Sansa will probably be sending ravens begging Jon to return ASAP...at least HE doesn't let the fact that he died and returned from the dead keep him from smiling now and then.

Edited August 1, 2017 by screamin

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Whats the quote seeing is believing? I just can't accept that Sansa wouldn't have some sort of conversation or general freak out about her half brother being a fire wight. He wasn't brought back by the Old Gods but by a priestess of a foreign religion. That's not something you just go okay and make a joke about. She had more of a reaction to peeping Bran than that.

I think seeing Wun Wun probably removed a good portion of skepticism , I think, she's was putting a bit more faith in the wall.

Jon proved his case to her, if he didn't she wouldn't be going full bore like she is at WF. 

[TaurusRose]

28 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

 

We have to wait and see.

Yes, I agree.

[stillshimpy]

Somebody needs to get poor Meera a spa certificate or something.  She's been through kind of a lot honoring her family's loyalty to the Starks and hardly anyone ever thinks to so much as offer the woman a Cliff Bar to help sustain herself.   

Oh god, what is that thing? ^ I will hopefully be able to edit it out.  Good lord. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by SilverStormm
Fixed quote box error.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I'm just hoping he remembers he's still human (for now) before the end of the season.  I could see this moment from Arya:

ARYA: Really, you can see everything?  Past and future?  Can you see this??  *whacks him on the head*

Damn, I just spit out my tea on my dog !

[Pogojoco]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

If he kneels, she can say "As your Queen, I say you have to fight Cersei. And we'll get to your maybe imaginary ice zombie situation in the future." Also, considering that his bannerman crowned him, just giving that up because Dany tells him to might not go over so well. They don't trust Targaryens. He has to be diplomatic about it. 

It might be six of one and half a dozen of another, but Tyrion also didn't say anything about kneeling in his raven to Jon. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

I don't think it has anything to do with his ambitions. If he kneels to her, he's putting himself and everyone under his command under her command. Then she could say they'll worry about the ice zombies north of the Wall later, but for now they're going to march on King's Landing, and he would either have to break his oath and be in open rebellion to her or order his men to march on King's Landing, and they would then either have to break their oaths to him or join him in marching on King's Landing. He's in a particularly tricky position since he was more or less elected as king. There's no divine right there, no ancestral loyalty. He was elected on the platform of pulling the North together to fight the White Walkers. If he kneels to Dany, knowing that her priority is winning the Iron Throne, he's going against everything he stands for, everything he swore he would do, and he'd be doing so knowing that he'd either have to give up on his priorities or break the oath. It's an oath he can't swear in good conscience.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

You know how teleporting is a sticking point for some people?  Well, this Sansa knows stuff is my sticking point.  I need to see some proof of this and as of right now, Sansa hasn't shown me that she's skilled at a whole lot.  I would be delighted if Sansa pulled a major coup on LF, but I don't think the girl has the chops. She still seems scared of her own shadow the majority of the time and it looks like LF is getting inside her head.

Oh come on, Sansa is a skilled seamstress, which we've known from Season One when The Queen asked her to sew a dress, and Septa Mordane complimented her on her fine, fine stitching.  And then last season, she made a rockin' dress with a direwolf, and a cloak for Jon.  :)

As for the rest of Sansa's skills, I agree, she has none.  She's still a traditional female aristocrat, with skills to match, even though she fancies herself to be a player in the great game, and some sort of tactical genius on the battlefield.  I don't believe she'll be alive at the end of the series.  She's a pretty face and window dressing, not much more can be said about her.  She has no "agency", never has, never will.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[FnkyChkn34]

4 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

I don't think that's the issue entirely.  You don't have to show the minutia.  For instance, Bran/Meera show up at the wall at the start of episode 1, then show up at Winterfell near the end of episode 3.  That's acceptable travel time, without showing the minutia of Bran/Meera's travel. 

The issue is that Euron was at KL in the first 3rd of this episode and then on the other side of the continent at the end of the episode.  That is 'teleporting' and takes you out of the story.

Sorry that is your reaction; it doesn't bother me. I don't think those things are what we should be focusing on. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Typo

[Blonde Gator]

38 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes, but the old three eye Raven was at least 20-30 years older, not a 8 - 10 year old child.

The book 3ER, Brynden Rivers, was thought to be about 120 years old, having mouldered in the tree cave north of the wall, having disappeared some 50 years before the the beginning of the series.  Although I seem to recall show 3ER said he'd been there for  a thousand years.  This may also have an important factor in Bran's being so confused and unable to explain what actually "being" the 3ER is all about.  He doesn't have the worldly experiences of a teenager, much less an adult, before he becomes the 3ER....so much that he "sees" may not even be comprehensible to someone of his limited experience. 

[GrailKing]

On 7/31/2017 at 2:53 AM, anamika said:

Sansa knows that LF sided with the Lannisters against the Ned in KL. She knows this. She knows that LF sided with the enemy against her father and he was subsequently imprisoned and executed. For someone who was eager to punish children for their fathers siding with the enemy against them, why is she not eager to do the same to LF?

Jon does not know any of this because Sansa does not tell him anything. She did not tell him about where she got the information about the Blackfish. She did not tell him about the Vale army. Has she told him about Lysa? All she told him is that LF is untrustworthy.

Neither in book or show does she know he betrayed her father, she wasn't there, she knows Baleish brought the Tyrells to the Lannister's cause, which got her out of her marriage plan to Joffrey ( she was quite happy about that )then LF reminds her LF will still have her for abuse.

He, keeps her isolated so she doesn't see his games.

She doesn't know of the letter Lysa sent or if it was mentioned she's too much in shock from her Aunt trying to send her crashing to the mountains., that letter ends up in a burning fireplace.

As a member of the small consul I'm sure she knows he's expected to support the crown.

When everyone is calling for punishing her for Ned's treason, he alone said she should be given a chance to prove her loyalty; he's playing good cop to the bad cops. 

As far as   LF she doesn't wants the scum anywhere near Jon or her family, but when they didn't get the men they needed she bit on her pride and asked for the Vale.

Edited August 3, 2017 by GrailKing

[screamin]

12 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Oh come on, Sansa is a skilled seamstress, which we've known from Season One when The Queen asked her to sew a dress, and Septa Mordane complimented her on her fine, fine stitching.  And then last season, she made a rockin' dress with a direwolf, and a cloak for Jon.

As for the rest of Sansa's skills, I agree, she has none.  She's still a traditional female aristocrat, with skills to match...

Which sort of assumes that all traditional female aristocrats are a waste of space, with no skills worth having...which is, I think, perhaps a bit too hard on them.

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, Tikichick said:

She has the Dothraki.  If Jon was able to utilize the wildlings in battle, surely the Dothraki can be used effectively.

The last we saw the Dothraki, their ships were under attack by the Ironborn.  Maybe the majority of them had already put to short to attack Casterly Rock?

It appears that either their numbers have been thinned, or at the very least their transportation has been damaged.

[MrsR]

The Unsullied went to Casterly Rock. The Dothraki stayed home at Dragonstone.

[LanceM]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

The last we saw the Dothraki, their ships were under attack by the Ironborn.  Maybe the majority of them had already put to short to attack Casterly Rock?

It appears that either their numbers have been thinned, or at the very least their transportation has been damaged.

 

No. The Unsullied attacked Casterly Rock. The Dothraki have not been used in battle yet though I expect this to change really soon.

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

The book 3ER, Brynden Rivers, was thought to be about 120 years old, having mouldered in the tree cave north of the wall, having disappeared some 50 years before the the beginning of the series.  Although I seem to recall show 3ER said he'd been there for  a thousand years.  This may also have an important factor in Bran's being so confused and unable to explain what actually "being" the 3ER is all about.  He doesn't have the worldly experiences of a teenager, much less an adult, before he becomes the 3ER....so much that he "sees" may not even be comprehensible to someone of his limited experience. 

Yes, but he was much older when he left the NW then Bran, so just his life experiences are way ahead of Bran's making it much easier for BR, also BR dabbled in the arts I believe. BR got to grow into in with much life experiences, Bran got thrown in to the pool with sharks around him, is my point.

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yes, but he was much older when he left the NW then Bran, so just his life experiences are way ahead of Bran's making it much easier for BR, also BR dabbled in the arts I believe. BR got to grow into in with much life experiences, Bran got thrown in to the pool with sharks around him, is my point.

That was my point, exactly.  Bran has no worldly experience, whereas Brynden Rivers was already considered to be elderly when he disappeared north of the wall.

[TarotQueen]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Tyrion is still fighting Tywin.  Tywin would have sent troops to secure Casterly Rock. He would have seen its loss as a major shame for the family.  Tyrion should have noted how his siblings have rebelled against Tywin as well.  They give no shits about that piece of real estate.  Cersei only wants to be Queen, and Jaime had to be blackmailed in order to agree to be made Lord of Casterly Rock.

I think its more likely Tyrion just doesnt know his family is broke yet.  

[GrailKing]

19 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't like to compare tragedies, but for Sansa that was the worst moment of her life.

Well I think yes, but slightly ahead of seeing her fathers head lopped off feet from her.

[Francie]

7 hours ago, domina89 said:

You forgot "Master of The Lord's Kiss"... that would have gotten Dany's attention.  Lol

 

I might be more inclined to add "Natural Discoverer of the Lord's Kiss"

[sweetcookieface]

Rewatching the episode, i need to give props to Indira Varma and the actress who plays Tyene. I really felt their terror and grief in that cell. Honestly, i didn't know they (well, more the actress who plays Tyene) were capable of pulling off such  an intense, emotional scene because they've been saddled with such leaden dialogue and poor characterization their entire time on the show. (Cersei was incredible in that scene as well, but I've always regarded Lena as one of the better actors on the show.)

[Kathemy]

<Doux Reviews> <The Queen's Justice>

'Twas my turn to cover an episode. So, there. Might be tripe but I did my best. :-)

[TarotQueen]

49 minutes ago, doram said:

 

In both cases, one person raises valid question is raised, and the other person gives a non-answer. Varys never answers why he thought Viserys would be a good King. Jon never explains why he won't kneel to get the help he needed.

Well he wasnt offered the help he needed, he was offered future consideration of helping him at some later time after Cersei is deposed with a problem he sees as immediate. But putting that aside ... Jon did answer that he wouldnt kneel because the lords of the North had placed thier trust in him to lead them through the upcoming troubles.  He got annoyed with Tyrion and Dany before saying it but to me it didnt seem like any kind of trick or non answer ... rewatch and see what you think ...

[GrailKing]

19 hours ago, anamika said:

So in all that time she spend in KL,  Sansa did not see LF walking around being chummy with the Lannisters? What does it matter if she does not know that LF lied to Ned and betrayed him. He sided with Joffrey against Ned. In the war between the Starks and the Lannisters, LF sided with the Lannisters against the Starks.  That's why he was still there four seasons later, able to get her out of KL. Are you implying that Sansa does not care that LF supported the Lannisters over her family in the war of the 5 kings?

What about that time LF killed her aunt? Or that time, he framed her and Tyrion for Joffrey's murder? Or, handing her over to the Boltons to gain control of the North? Or him manipulating her cousin in the Vale for his advancement?  Does Sansa know about these things?

LF threatened to execute Royce last season. Royce has no liking for LF. It should be easy enough for Sansa to make public LF's crimes and have him executed. Then send word to SweetRobin that LF met with an unfortunate end. What is even the point of LF anymore?  Unless Sansa thinks he is useful and wants his help and advice.

He works for the crown, he's the master of coins; she doesn't know of the betrayal because she wasn't in the throne room, she wasn't privy to the meeting between Renly and Ned, or Ned and LF, she wasn't there ! No one knows of Lysa's note to Cat except LF,Lysa, Ned, Cat, and Lewin guess what? except for LF  they're ALL DEAD! and the note was burned so no one sees it.

No one even knows if LF got into Joffrey's ear, it's just speculation on our parts, not a fact in the books.

Sansa was in Winterfell or running from Ramsey, not in the Vale when that happened?!?!

Of course she knows he killed her, she then turned it around on him and has it hanging over his head, she can easily say she feared for her life, he framed her also for Joffery's murder, but they were out to sea when she discovered it, it's not that easy; Cersei still wants her dead, whether she is innocent or not won't matter Cersei see's her as a threat now that she's home.

She needs to get Royce to back her, and get her cousin to back her, until then she keeps LF close

Edited August 1, 2017 by GrailKing

[Francie]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I'm quite sure that we are not supposed to be taking Cersei's self-propaganda as the cold hard truth. 

But if being a revolutionary is inherently useless, I'm glad no one told George Washington or Mahatma Gandhi or Abraham Lincoln or we'd be living in a very different world now. 

I also don't understand the logic of dismissing "Mother of dragons" because Dany "doesn't accomplish anything with them" and at the same time, crediting the dragons for freeing the slaves that Dany set out to free.

 

 

???

Not a matter of taking someone's word. Cersei happens to be right about that. Since the day Dany's taken a command position, she has been a destroyer, not a builder. She, inadvertently and unintentionally, destroyed Khal Drogo's horde. Her insistence that her cultural values (albeit humanitarian ones) be followed cause dissension and violence and resulted in Drogo's injury.  She left carnage wherever she goes, tearing down institutions without any serious consideration as to how to build those civilizations up.  She's an anarchist. A revolutionary. But she has displayed no corresponding Founding Father skills.  Again, this is the person who put Daario -- freaking Daario -- in charge of Mereen.  

Right now, she should be taking a page out of Stannis's and Davos's handbook.  She should go North, save Westeros from the White Walkers. She should go North (to the wall) to go South (King's Landing).  She should rule the kingdom instead of trying to defeat it.  And then the people will follow. 

She'll probably get there. But it'll take a few more episodes. 

I'm not following your other argument. Give a guy a gun and it's not hard for him to rob a store. Dany has a dragon, and she burned a man alive with it. I'm hardly impressed. She didn't break the chains with wit or cunning. Her dragons finally grew big enough to burn a man alive. Congrats, I guess? 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

18 hours ago, Miles said:

That's only a book thing. The tower of joy didn't happen in front of a weirwood tree and Bran saw that.

Eh, I didn't quite buy that one either. Just stick her in very thick armor with very narrow eye slids. She doesn't even have to be able to move much. Could she still be hit with an arrown at that point? Sure, but the likelyhood is about 0.00000000000000000000001%. She'll have to use the dragons eventually. Otherwise she won't win. Egon did and he and his sisters came out fine.

I know HBO likes her looking sexy on her dragons, but there is literally no in-universe explaination  for this.

Still no damn saddle, so she'll fall before an arrow hit.

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, Francie said:

Not a matter of taking someone's word. Cersei happens to be right about that. Since the day Dany's taken a command position, she has been a destroyer, not a builder. She, inadvertently and unintentionally, destroyed Khal Drogo's horde. Her insistence that her cultural values (albeit humanitarian oones) be followed cause dissension and violence and resulted in Drogo's injury.  She left carnage wherever she goes, tearing down institutions without any serious consideration as to how to build those civilizations up.  She's an anarchist. A revolutionary. But she has displayed no corresponding Founding Father skills.  Again, this is the person who put Daario -- freaking Daario -- in charge of Mereen. 

It's good then that the cultures she's destroyed are those of the slavers, rapists and barbarian hordes. Saving women from rape trumps Drogo's injuries in my book.

I am not saying that she went about it the right way. But her intentions were good and she at least tried to do something to change what she saw as an injustice. Cersei's propaganda about Dany, the mad queen being destructive is hilarious and hypocritical.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Still no damn saddle, so she'll fall before an arrow hit.

Just tie her (in her armor) to the damn dragon. Nothing fifty feet of rope can't handle.

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

It's good then that the cultures she's destroyed are those of the slavers, rapists and barbarian hordes. Saving women from rape trumps Drogo's injuries in my book. 

As I said, her instincts were humanitarian ones.  But keep in mind what the result was -- the near total destruction of her entire horde.  When Drogo died, the strong left, and weak began dying. So Dany's attempt to save women from rape ended in their deaths.  And the deaths of many others. Dany has never shown the capacity to think two steps ahead. She's very linear and very uncomplicated.  Not the best to be ruling, where there are so many complex issues in play.  Look back at Tywin's attempt to train Tommen.  How do you decide which choice is best?  Dany is very "see bad. Stop." There's not even recognition of the down sides of her actions until the reprucussions surface. 

And Dany abandoned any right of the high moral ground when she found the new Dorthraki horde and promised them that they could go rape and pillage in Westeros. I keep expecting them to get one whiff of winter and head off for Dorne. 

[Raachel2008]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I agree with your ideas about Jon and Dany, I have no wish to see them as a couple.  Yes, he absolutely is a Stark, ironically more like Ned than his own children from what we've seen.  Matter of fact, I think Jon is going to be a bit devastated by the parental reveal because you can see how carefully he has held himself and striven to be worthy to be acknowledged Ned's bastard.  Ned loved Jon and vice versa.  That is going to be an enormous gut punch.  I'm starting to wonder if he doesn't find out via a source other than Bran, and Bran is meant to give the news to Sansa and Arya, etc. instead.

Word, though, looking back, I wonder if at times Ned pitied Jon more than he loved him.

 

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

The Iron Bank strikes me as the kind of place that would loan money to both sides of a war -- like arms merchants selling to both sides in modern times.  I don't think the Iron Bank is "of the people" of Braavos.

I suspect the idea there was to show that bankers do not care.

 

13 hours ago, doram said:

Dany's whole shtick is that she's better at conquering than ruling right? Well the show seems to have forgotten that in the bid to make her a 'rootable' underdog.

Nobody wins all the time,  even the best strategists. The problem isn't that Dany is losing some battles, but how she is losing some of those battles. Jamie playing Tyrion is plausible; Euron's huge fleet not being seeing by anyone adn travelling at warp speed is just absurd.

 

13 hours ago, doram said:

Missandei announcing Dany's numerous titles grandly vs Davos's deadpan delivery was like a meta metaphor of the difference between the resumes of men and women being considered for the same job that the man eventually gets.

You are giving D&D too much credit.

6 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

There was a scene of Jon bringing up the fact that the last time he and Tyrion were together they took a piss off The Wall. I was hoping that during Broodfest, they would both take a whizz off the Cliffs.

They didn't took a piss off The Wall, only Tyrion did.

 

3 hours ago, doram said:

 

At the very least, she could have escorted her own ships to Casterly Rock. It's one thing if she doesn't want to use her dragons to raze down KL. But she's not even using them defensively. If the Mother of Dragons is not going to fight with her dragons, what's the bloody point of having them??? 

I can see the reasoning behind that, though. It is like practice x game  night; before Westeros Dany could lose her life and that was it; now if she loses her life, she loses the war and eveybody loses their future. I'm not sure if I'm explaning myself clearly, but that is the best analogy for me.

 

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Thank you for pointing it out.  His change in accent has been very annoying to me.  It is the seventh season.  Who's idea was it for Kit to change Jon's accent at this point?

I thougth Kit had the flu or something like that in the scene with the Lords, Sansa and Lyanna last week, to honest, but then  I'm not a native speaker. But yeah, somehow he is speaking different and it is just bizaaaarre.

[Francie]

11 minutes ago, screamin said:

Just tie her (in her armor) to the damn dragon. Nothing fifty feet of rope can't handle.

It's a shame Qyborn isn't on her side. He would've invented duct tape for her by now. 

[tennisgurl]

So much going down in such a short amount of time!

We finally got our long awaited meeting between Jon and Dany, and I thought it was pretty good. You know, I do like Dany, and I think she does have leadership skills (especially when it comes to inspiring loyalty in her people), but she needs to stop with all of these "I'm the Queen and its my Birthright" speeches, its getting super old. If all you have to prove your the rightful ruler is "because my dad was, and I have dragons", its not much of a campaign platform. I know its a monarchy, but if this show has proved anything to us, its that crappy rulers don't last long or come to happy ends in Westeros. She needs a real reason why people should follow her, after her father was thrown off the throne for being evil. I was with Davos when he was saying that Jon got his position through leadership, not by birthright. That sounds better than all the titles in the world.

Other than that, I'm glad that Dany was willing to at least give Jon the chance to get his stuff. And that she admitted that her dad was awful, and apologized for killing Jon's father and uncle ("Your family pledged to serve mine! Well, your family set mine on fire"), even if she did jump back into saying how her family was screwed over by mean old Robert and Ned. I do kind of think Jon was beating around the bush a bit with the White Walkers and the army of the dead. Don't be ominous now, Jon, just say that you can sort out the political stuff AFTER the ice zombie invasion has been dealt with! Maybe Jon can talk about becoming a Targ vassal again later, after he talks with the northern lords and the WWers have been handled. And Danny went into that whole meeting already throwing her weight around, without giving Jon any real reason why he and his people should back her, other than the fact that she's a Targaryen, and has dragons. She should do what Stannis tried to do: save the North, followed by the rest of the country, then come back to Kings Landing as a hero. With all the turmoil, she could probably become queen and be accepted pretty easily, especially by people nostalgic for the Targaryen days. Maybe losing her other allies will cause her to eat some humble pie, so she can work on being an actual ruler, and not just a Mother of Dragons.

Damn, Cersei is one scary chick. That punishment was both poetic, and nasty. It actually made me feel bad for Ellaria and the littlest Sand Snake...kind of. Mostly the actresses really sold their horror and grief, and its hard not to feel bad for people facing such a horrible end. That being said, everything Cersei said was totally right. This was their choice. They choose to kill poor, innocent Marcella for something she had nothing to do with, along with the rest of their family and other loyal followers, and started a war over reasons that are totally insane and stupid. If anything, I feel bad for Oberyn, even if he's no longer alive, because I know he would be horrified to see what his lover and daughters have done. And now his house is destroyed in his name, in a quest for revenge that he would have said was stupid. Its not like he was killing every Lannister around, he just wanted to kill the asshole who killed his sister. Cersei talking about his fight and horrible death just made me sad that he wasn't around longer.

I admit, I'm probably going to get really sick of Euron if they use him too much, but, right now, I'm super entertained by him. He is like some kind of evil, murderous Wresting Heel, I kind of love it. He is an awful excuse for a human being, but I like watching his special brand of Viking pirate crazy. He also had it totally right that the people of Kings Landing are ridiculously fickle. Like two weeks ago, they were booing a naked Cersei and cheering the High Sparrow. Its like they have a guy who has a big "Applause" sign above the Red Keep, letting the crowd know how to react to everything.

The end of the Tyrells was super anticlimactic, but Lady Olenna had a badass end. I just love how, when she took the poison, she started out being all coy about Joffrey's death, then realized "screw it, I've played coy my whole life" and just straight up told Jaime what she did. And that she wanted Cersei to know. Olenna out *drops mic*

[anamika]

15 minutes ago, Francie said:

As I said, her instincts were humanitarian ones.  But keep in mind what the result was -- the near total destruction of her entire horde.  When Drogo died, the strong left, and weak began dying. So Dany's attempt to save women from rape ended in their deaths.  And the deaths of many others. Dany has never shown the capacity to think two steps ahead. She's very linear and very uncomplicated.

I don't recall this... When did the weak start dying? The Dothraki who opposed her left, she hatched her eggs and the Dothraki who were left followed her. She took them to Qarth and protected them. When did the women she saved from rape die? She frees them and calls them brothers and sisters. Many of them leave as free people. The only person who died was Mirri Maz Duur.

So she did think ahead. She got her dragons, she got her loyal Dothraki comprising of freed slaves and she took them to Qarth.

15 minutes ago, Francie said:

And Dany abandoned any right of the high moral ground when she found the new Dorthraki horde and promised them that they could go rape and pillage in Westeros. I keep expecting them to get one whiff of winter and head off for Dorne. 

Wait, what?! LOL! Cersei propaganda indeed.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[Francie]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

I don't recall this... When did the weak start dying? The Dothraki who opposed her left, she hatched her eggs and the Dothraki who were left followed her. She took them to Qarth and protected them. When did the women she saved from rape die? She frees them and calls them brothers and sisters. Many of them leave as free people. The only person who died was Mirri Maz Duur.

So she did think ahead. She got her dragons, she got her loyal Dothraki comprising of freed slaves and she took them to Qarth.

Wait, what?!

I mean this with all due respect -- I think you need to re-watch the first couple episodes of season 2 and her end speech to the Dorthraki in season 6.  In the first, people are dying left and right on the way to Qarth.  In the sixth season, she promises the Dothraki that get to come and conquer Westeros. To them, that means they get to rape and pillage. She abandoned everything she stood for previously with that speech.

[LanceM]

Daenerys is a monarch and when you appear before a monarch it is customary for his/her titles to be recited.  Not understanding with the big deal is as having your titles recited in court is something that seems to be pretty customary in this world. It is not like she is having MIssandei recite her titles everywhere she goes and with everyone she talks to. lol

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sorry that is your reaction; it doesn't bother me. I don't think those things are what we should be focusing on. 

The easiest way to ensure that no one focuses on unimportant things is to get them right. Viewers are rarely distracted by things making too much sense.

[LanceM]

21 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

And Dany abandoned any right of the high moral ground when she found the new Dorthraki horde and promised them that they could go rape and pillage in Westeros. I keep expecting them to get one whiff of winter and head off for Dorne. 

She never promised them they could rape and pillage. You need to watch that scene again. 

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, Francie said:

I mean this with all due respect -- I think you need to re-watch the first couple episodes of season 2 and her end speech to the Dorthraki in season 6.  In the first, people are dying left and right on the way to Qarth.  In the sixth season, she promises the Dothraki that get to come and conquer Westeros. To them, that means they get to rape and pillage. She abandoned everything she stood for previously with that speech.

I mean this with respect as well. Kindly watch and tell me where Dany promises the Dothraki that they can rape and pillage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc15sYzPFwUt

It's funny to see fans regurgitate Cersei's propaganda to criticize Dany.

As for people dying left and right...her horses were dying. Then she send her men to go find them a city. Talk about hyperbole.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[GrailKing]

18 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Knowing that LF was on the Lannister side isn't the same as her knowing that LF betrayed Ned.  Tyrion, the Hound and the Tyrells were all on the Lannister side too.  Should she kill the Hound as soon as he shows up north?

And her Aunt was trying to kill her and would have if LF hadn't stopped her.  I don't see how she cares about Lyssa dying.

And she may not blame LF for framing her, since he also helped her escape.

I have said that handing her over to Ramsay is the big deal.  He claims he didn't know how Ramsay was.  I think she'd be dumb to believe him.  But based on how she treats LF now, I don't think she believes him. But also, as I said, she has to know that LF still have Robin wrapped around his finger, so if she dismisses LF, then Robin can order the Vale lords to leave, which she doesn't want.  So she is tolerating him for now. 

Based on how LF reacted to the news that Maester Luwin kept records, maybe she finds out actual evidence against him.  I struggle to know what Maester Luwin could have.  However the Maester with the Boltons could have kept records as well, that do incriminate LF.

Her Aunt dying, she care, he could had hung that on her ( I think that's why she outed herself ) he still killed family, and his wife, she's not forgetting that.

No way is he getting away for framing her, he put Cersei on her and her family, hence her fear and warning to Jon.

Whether he knew what Ramsey was or not doesn't matter, he saved her from people who murdered her family, and gave her to other people who murdered her family. 

The one time he may have been truthful will be considered another lie by him to Sansa.

[tennisgurl]

To me, Dany has three big issues as a leader:

1. She looks at cultures other than her own, sees injustice being done in that culture, and tries to stop it, without really understanding the culture she's trying to change. That's not a bad thing, in and of itself, but she never seems to realize that changing an entire culture, is, in fact, really hard to do, both on a practical level, and on a more sociological level. First with the Dothraki (which went better, as she had force behind her, and they respond well to force), than with Slavers Bay and those cities. Again, she saw something wrong, that was built into the very threads of the culture, and just ended slavery, without really thinking about how these cities would work now. She doesn't really seem to get the cultures that she's trying to change, and that makes it hard to work with them. That leads to...

2. She struggles with follow through after she conquers stuff. When she took over Drogos Dothroki, she kind of just wandered around with them until they found something, and then when we conquered the slavers cities, she struggles for AGES with actually doing the day to day functions of the city, as well as trying to remake cities that ran on slavery, to run without slavery. She has had success, in that she still has her cities and people, but that has lead to...

3. She is starting to believe her own hype. Dany is certainly a charismatic leader who has gone through a lot to get to where she is, and she has some skill at strategy, and finding good people and getting them to positions of power, but she still doesn't have much experience actually ruling, and she seems to be underestimating the amount of trepidation people in Westeros have about bending the knee to a Taryagiyn with dragons, Unsullied, and Dothraki. She seems to have abandoned her underdog ways and is now banking on her name and dragons, without giving anyone better reasons to want her as their queen. At least before, she had the moral high ground against the slavers, what's her excuse here? Things in Westeros aren't great, but does she really think she will be better than any other candidates?

All of these will be issues if she wants to eventually become the Queen and have the Iron Throne. I'm sure she knows some things about Westeros, but for most of her life I'm sure it was filtered through a very pro Targaryen filter, and even more recently, she's only recently even set foot in Westeros, and, as far as we know, has never even really known any Westerosi very well, before she met Jorah. She has never lived there, experienced life there, and it will be hard to rule people she doesn't even know. Hopefully, if she becomes Queen, she will have people to help her actually run things, but she will not only be the leader of a massive, diverse country, its a country just finishing a brutal civil war, where several Great Houses have seen severe damage, which she will need to deal with. And, while people will probably fall into line because of her dragons, they wont like it, and just announcing "its my birthright" wont win anyone over. She will get a LOT more done if she has people who want to follow her, not people who have to.

Edited August 1, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Francie]

35 minutes ago, anamika said:

I mean this with respect as well. Kindly watch and tell me where Dany promises the Dothraki that they can rape and pillage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc15sYzPFwUt

It's funny to see fans regurgitate Cersei's propaganda to criticize Dany.

As for people dying left and right...her horses were dying. Then she send her men to go find them a city. Talk about hyperbole.

This is what I mean about Daenerys's lack of understanding. She's so simplistic. She has witnessed, first hand, what the Dothraki do when they win a battle. They rape and pillage. That's their culture. She's been told this. She's seen it. 

Now, in that scene you cite -- the scene I was referring to as well -- she tells them -- "Hey, come with me and kill my enemy and tear down their stone houses." If she were half the leader she pretends herself to be, she would understand that she's inviting them to go do what they do -- kill, plunder, and rape.  She doesn't say, "Hey, come with me - but do it my way." She's riling them up, getting them pumped. And, she's going to have an exact copy of what happened before. They'll conquer for her, and then they'll start their raping and pillaging, and she'll be all "umm, no." And they will respond like "wait, what? This is what we do! Why'd you invite us here otherwise?" 

 If Dany doesn't realize that this is their understanding of the situation then she's even dumber that I take her for. 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.  You think the horses died but no people. You don't think that Dany is inciting the Dothraki and pumping them up without qualifying what is expected of them.  I do.  And we'll just have to all it a day on this topic.

But I still will make fun of Ms. Best Attendance in May; Employee of the Month in Automotive Parts; and General Participation Award Winner Daenerys Targaryen.  

Edited August 1, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

13 hours ago, anamika said:

But the Lannisters were the enemy the Starks were fighting against for killing their father. Not Stannis or any other king. Ned supported Stannis - he wanted Stannis on the throne. Last episode, Sansa called both the Targaryens and Tyrion untrustworthy.  LF supported the Lannisters over 4 seasons and Joffrey on the throne. He was not a neutral bystander like many of the Northern houses. That's why he got send to the Vale by Tywin- to get more support for the Lannisters.  Sansa wanted to punish the children of those who sided against the Starks during the battle of the bastards - not even their actual enemies - those people were already dead. She wanted their children punished - but LF? Who she knows has constantly manipulated and betrayed people including her aunt? Yeah, no punishment for him for siding against her family.

The Vale Lords again sat out the battle because Lysa did not want her men to die for Robb's war. Same as some of the Northern houses. They did not support the Lannisters. LF did. That's the difference.

And again, if Sansa is unaware of the treachery Ned faced in KL, why does she call him a fool?

Royce said you can't trust the Lannisters or a Targayan, Sansa warned it could be a trap, send an emissary.

Sansa wanted them to loose the house, which is common punishment, Jon, didn't,Jon won.

Again people are telling you she's keeping him close, she needs the Vale, she knows he's untrustworthy ( she said it a gazillion times ) told, john said it to LF face( well a safe distance from his face ) " you declared for houses before Lord Baleish, it's never stopped you before"

Again the only people who know he betrayed her family: Cersei, Slynt ( Dead), possibly Tyrion, the Hound, Varys (?), Joffery (dead), possibly Tywin.

Sansa was not privy to it.

 She said Ned and Robb made foolish mistakes, not that they are fools; it's context.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

This is what I mean about Daenerys's lack of understanding. She's so simplistic. She has witnessed, first hand, what the Dothraki do when they win a battle. They rape and pillage. That's their culture. She's been told this. She's seen it.

We are three episodes in. Are we seeing the Dothraki rape and plunder? For that matter did we see Dany's Iron Born allies  rape and plunder? That's what they do as well, right? But Yara agrees to cease and desist.

So if they are not raping and plundering then why is Dany getting accused of being simplistic? She has her men under control.

Of course she riles them up - they are a warrior class - she riles them up to get their support - these are a people who have never crossed the narrow sea. They respect her so much that they did cross the sea - for her. Are you saying that if she asks them to not rape and plunder, they won't listen?

It's funny that the Dothraki are getting criticized for plundering - without them actually doing anything of that sort. Meanwhile here is Jaime ransacking and looting High garden to pay the Iron Bank. Maybe Dany can pay the Dothraki with Lannister gold at the end of it all - they seemed to like the gold in Qarth.

1 hour ago, Francie said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Clearly. I think we are watching two different shows. In my version, Dany is a good person who tried her very best to stop rape and slavery and not someone who promised the Dothraki that they could go rape people in Westeros.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[TudorQueen]

As I watched this episode, there was so much I wanted to say:

Knowing Ellaria deserved what happened (though her daughter, perhaps, didn't?) but still finding my heart breaking for them
:: shallow note ::  Jamie looking utterly in his element - and so very hot! - leading the cavalry at Highgarden.

Mark Gatiss as the Braavosi banker. Hi, Mycroft, you're still deliciously superior!

Tyrion and Jon, together again. Aww, they do like each other!

After Missandei's recital of Dany's endless titles, Davos's dry "This is Jon Snow... King in the North."

Sam, you smart, practical young man! "I read the books and followed the instructions."

However... 

  All I can really say right now is...

Damn, I am going to miss the hell out of Diana Rigg.

[spottedreptile]

2 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

As for the rest of Sansa's skills, I agree, she has none.  She's still a traditional female aristocrat, with skills to match, even though she fancies herself to be a player in the great game, and some sort of tactical genius on the battlefield.

Her greatest skill has been convincing the writers that they need to include her in every scene and give her a heap of undeserved credit because she's young and pretty and they want to feel good about having all these women in charge, or whatever. Other than that, neither she nor they have much of a clue it seems. The dialogue this episode was inane. No wonder everybody acted wooden. Sam and Jorah were good though. I wonder if Sam is immune to scale because he handled dragonglass when he killed that wight? Maybe that's why Jorah was magically healed. Doesn't seem crazier than some of the stuff going on. 

I hate to say but I just wish this was all over. Getting to the end is becoming a real grind. Just hope it is all worth it.

[Maximum Taco]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Yes, but Sansa did not tattle to Cersei on the show. So no harm was done in Ned telling them.

It doesn't matter that no harm was done. If somebody puts a gun to his head and pulls the trigger but lives because the gun wasn't loaded, does that make it a smart idea?

What matters is the implication.

Ned had no qualms revealing his plans to children, children who could easily tell anyone and ruin his plans.

If he told Sansa and Arya, who else did he tell?

That's the problem, he is too upfront and honest, even when he shouldn't be. Remember that we aren't talking about Jon repeating specific mistakes that Ned or Robb made, Sansa just wants Jon to be different. He reminds her of Ned and Robb, and Ned and Robb died because of who they were.

 

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Context is important. Jon's decision was regarding the children of the house that sided against them. Punish them or forgive them. It had nothing to do with Ned's actions in KL or Robb breaking his wedding pact. In fact by forgiving the children, Jon did the opposite of what Ned (Theon) and Robb (Karstark) did. Sansa is unable to understand this because she does not fully know what led to Ned and Robb's downfall or what their mistakes where. It was Robb's execution of Karstark that leads to the Karstark contingent abandoning them, which then leads to Roose's betrayal. It was Theon's betrayal that led to Robb losing Winterfell. In forgiving the children, Jon is uniting the North instead of making new enemies and future betrayals. And yet, Sansa admonishes him for making the same mistakes Ned and Robb.

Ned didn't disinherit Theon.

Robb didn't disinherit the Karstarks.

How exactly did Jon "do the opposite" of what they did?

All three of them punished the man who did the crime and forgave the children, although you could argue that Ned "punished" Theon by taking him as his ward, but it doesn't seem like too much of a punishment, he treated him nicely and if the events of the book/show didn't happen I'm guessing Ned would've been more then happy to see Theon become Lord of the Iron Islands and Lord Reaper of Pyke.

It seems like Jon did exactly what Ned and Robb would've done. They all punished the fathers and then they all forgave the children for having traitorous fathers and expected them not to ever take revenge. Sansa has seen this backfire on Ned and Robb, is it any wonder she's wary of the families of men Jon killed?

 

12 hours ago, anamika said:

And yet Tyrion vouches for him and they allow him to mine for Dragon glass. Because he is straight shooter. He got the thing that he came for. If he had listened to Sansa there would be no dragon glass. So once again he was right and Sansa was wrong. His way worked.

Meanwhile Sansa is walking around with LF, letting him in on all their plans and giving him free reign to make mischief in WF. Despite knowing what he ultimately wants and despite knowing how dangerous he can be. She should take her own advice and not make the stupid mistakes that Ned made.  Did anyone see his face when Maester Wolkan mentioned all those scrolls that they get by raven - one can see him already start to plot.

 

Yeah he got lucky that the thing that he wants is worthless to everyone but him. Sansa wasn't warning him that he couldn't get dragonglass, she was warning him that if he went south he might never come back. Like Ned and Robb went south and never came back. And guess what? He can't leave Dragonstone.

And yes, Sansa is walking around with Littlefinger letting him in on all her secrets about how she plans to feed people and keep soldiers warm.

Quite frankly, the best place for Sansa to keep Littlefinger is in Winterfell. She is the authority, everyone is sworn to obey her through Jon, and any communication that leaves Winterfell by raven goes through the Maester who is sworn to the castle which is held by her. If he was anywhere else he'd have a much easier time hatching plans and causing problems. As you said she knows what he wants, so she can keep him from getting it.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Maximum Taco