S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Scaeva]

12 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

Yeah, I've read a lot about the Song of Ice and Fire being the two of them together. But Jon alone satisfies that as a product of the union between Stark and Targareyen. It could also, of course, be dragon vs White Walker. 

I think A Song of Ice and Fire will probably end up referring to both Lyanna and Rhaegar *and* Jon and Daenerys . You have the first doomed romance between Stark and Targaryen that is a disaster for Westeros, ushering in turbulent period of internal strife (Robert's Rebellion, the Greyjoy Rebellion, the War of the Five Kings), the last of which nearly fatally weakens the kingdom right as the Night King returns, and then the (probable) marriage of Stark & Targaryen that will ultimately bring that chaotic period to a close and be Westeros' salvation, ushering in a period of peace. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Scaeva

[anamika]

37 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

It doesn't matter that no harm was done. What matters is the implication.

Ned had no qualms revealing his plans to children, children who could easily tell anyone and ruin his plans.

If he told Sansa and Arya, who else did he tell?

That's the problem, he is too upfront and honest, even when he shouldn't be. Again remember that we aren't talking about specific mistakes, she just wants Jon to be different.

 

This is a discussion of why Sansa thinks Ned made stupid mistakes. Since she did not tattle to Cersei, I am not sure why Ned discussing his plans with his FAMILY would be considered stupid. Not sure how any of that relates to Jon forgiving some children...What's the connection here? Jon should make his decisions in secret or something?

37 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

All three of them punished the man who did the crime and forgave the children, although you could argue that Ned "punished" Theon by taking him as his ward, but it doesn't seem like too much of a punishment, he treated him nicely and if the events of the book/show didn't happen I'm guessing Ned would've been more then happy to see Theon become Lord of the Iron Islands and Lord Reaper of Pyke.

It seems like Jon did exactly what Ned and Robb would've done. They all killed the fathers (albeit in battle) and the they all forgave the children for having traitorous fathers and expected them not to ever take revenge. Sansa has seen this backfire on Ned and Robb, is it any wonder she's wary of the families of men Jon killed?

Exactly. By taking Theon as a ward, he fostered resentment and anger in his own home. So what if Theon was treated nicely? He was still a hostage who would have been killed had Balon rebelled. Theon missed his mother. Ned never got close to Theon for this reason and Theon felt like he never belonged with the Starks. And this ended with Theon ultimately betraying Robb.

And similarly Robb executing Karstark for his crime, led to him losing the support of that family and the loss of their men. And this was one of the reasons for Roose's betrayal. Robb was put in a tough spot, there's no denying it - but his punishing the guilty is what led him to lose men and ultimately lose his campaign.

Jon, in forgiving those children, did the opposite. He could have taken away their lands and made them wards - fostering resentment like Theon. Or he could have kicked them out, only for them to come back for vengeance - like a Dany or an Arya. Instead of creating new enemies like Ned and Robb did, Jon forgave the children and gave them a reason to be more loyal to him than their fathers were. Sansa fails to understand this because of her political naivety, thirst for revenge and not knowing what it was that led to Ned and Robb's downfall. That she has the gall to then admonish Jon for being like Ned and Robb is laughable and Jon rightly decides to ignore her nonsense.

37 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Yeah he got lucky that the thing that he wants is worthless to everyone but him. Sansa wasn't warning him that he couldn't get dragonglass, she wwas warning him that if he went south he might never come back. And guess what, he can't leave Dragonstone.

Not lucky at all. He trusted in Tyrion as a person and he was right. Tyrion liked him for who he was and negotiated on his behalf. He can now mine dragon glass. I doubt he wants to leave any time soon, till he gets what he came from. I doubt that Dany/Tyrion are going to have him killed. Sansa's warnings continue to be so much hogwash as usual.

37 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

And yes, Sansa is walking around with Littlefinger letting him in on all her secrets about how she plans to feed people and keep soldiers warm.

Quite frankly, the best place for Sansa to keep Littlefinger is in Winterfell. She is the authority, everyone is sworn to obey her through Jon, and any communication that leaves Winterfell by raven goes through the Maester who is sworn to the castle which is held by her. If he was anywhere else he'd have a much easier time hatching plans and causing problems. As you said she knows what he wants, so she can keep him from getting it.

Yes, good plan that from mastermind Sansa - give LF unfettered access to Winterfell and let him in on all their plans. I am sure things are going to go swimmingly! What could go wrong? But I am sure super smart Sansa is all up on that!

42 minutes ago, spottedreptile said:

Her greatest skill has been convincing the writers that they need to include her in every scene and give her a heap of undeserved credit because she's young and pretty and they want to feel good about having all these women in charge, or whatever. Other than that, neither she nor they have much of a clue it seems.

It's funny that Dany gets called as a Mary Sue often, but here's a character whose sole achievement in seven seasons is writing a letter to LF accepting his help and yet every Tom, Dick and Harry keeps praising her as being smarter than characters with more experience and knowledge than her. It does not help that characters around her are deliberately written as idiots so that she will have something 'smart' to say. Her habit of doling out unsolicited advice in vague generalities has already become tiresome.  Jon must have been glad to have a sensible conversation with someone like Tyrion after Sansa's annoying blather. Finally, some good advice!

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

I like Sansa by herself, without having to count up her list of achievements or speculate about her IQ. Not everyone on this show can be a Dany, Tyrion or Jon. 

She definitely has faults. But for me, she's the symbolic heart of Winterfell and the North. She's the sister you want to return home to. She's the one sharing all of the intimate reunion scenes with the Starks. In the show she wants peace and quiet, and in the books she just wants to marry for love (it's so SAD that she thinks she won't have that). Hopefully she'll get both, and if she does--that's her achievement.

I'd like to see how the next 4 episodes play out before we conclude Sansa hasn't done anything. And if she doesn't, I would still like her as a character even if she just sat around Winterfell sewing cloaks and eating lemon cakes. 

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

The easiest way to ensure that no one focuses on unimportant things is to get them right. Viewers are rarely distracted by things making too much sense.

Yes.  The writers don't even appear capable of consistency.   Things like LF just teleporting around the North at will and through Bolton lands back and forth and back again or Varys going from Dorne to Mereen in the blink of an eye, but Sam takes an entire season to go from the Wall to Old Town are just poor writing.

 

3 hours ago, Francie said:

It's a shame Qyborn isn't on her side. He would've invented duct tape for her by now. 

 

I can see it now.  "How did you manage to kill Maester Qyborn, Sam?"

"I just followed the instructions in his book."

Edited August 1, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[spottedreptile]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

yet every Tom, Dick and Harry keeps praising her as being smarter than characters with more experience and knowledge than her

I remember when CSI kept dropping movie stars into their lineups, as novices who instantly became experts, and the supporting cast had to keep praising them to the skies during the episodes as it was written into their contracts that the stars had to be the best in show. Maybe Sophie has a KA contract or she knows where D&D's bodies are buried. 

37 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

In the show she wants peace and quiet, and in the books she just wants to marry for love

But that's not some great quality that separates her from the other characters. I would imagine everyone under the Westeros sun wants peace and quiet and to marry for love, well 99% of them anyway. 

It's not an ambition, it's just a wish fantasy of a teenage girl. Doesn't Sansa have any real goals, apart from wanting to be 'happy?'

Edited August 1, 2017 by spottedreptile

[Shimmergloom]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It's funny that Dany gets called as a Mary Sue often, but here's a character whose sole achievement in seven seasons is writing a letter to LF accepting his help and yet every Tom, Dick and Harry keeps praising her as being smarter than characters with more experience and knowledge than her. It does not help that characters around her are deliberately written as idiots so that she will have something 'smart' to say. Her habit of doling out unsolicited advice in vague generalities has already become tiresome.  Jon must have been glad to have a sensible conversation with someone like Tyrion after Sansa's annoying blather. Finally, some good advice!

I don't think Dany is a Mary Sue, but I think a difference here is that Sansa has been shown to make mistakes and to apologize for things she's done or said.  But most often Dany thinks she can do no wrong.  But she does make a lot of mistakes(which is also why Dany is not a Mary Sue.  Cause Mary Sues are never seen to make mistakes) and she is either oblivious to the consequences or they are solved with quick resolutions like just knocking some torches over.  For example, when Dany stops the Dothraki from raping the Lamb women.  She's doing the right thing.  But she doesn't comprehend that the lamb women are just going to let bygones be bygones(Jon does something similar with the wildlings).  So when Drogo is killed, she doesn't take any blame for what happens or even appears to want to understand.

The other main problem with Dany's story so far for me, is that for the most part until now Dany has only faced cartoon character villains who are easily outsmarted and dealt with.  She's basically been living in a fantasy story, inside a fantasy story.  When you have read 5 books and watched nearly 7 seasons of Starks being beheaded, beaten, nearly raped, raped, murdered, have their bodies defiled and a myriad of other mental torments, it is easy to just brush away Dany's accomplishments(which I don't agree that they are not real accomplishments, they are.  She freed 100's of thousands of slaves, that's a big accomplishment), because the writing for her after Season 1/Book 1 was just spinning its wheels and just giving her things against lesser adversaries.

But in Westeros the Villains(other than Euron, who is at least a competent cartoon) are not cartoon characters.  The Lannisters are not cartoons who will sell you an army that you can then just command to kill them.  So now it makes Dany and her advisors appear incompetent.  Even Tyrion and Varys who should know better.

[GrailKing]

15 hours ago, screamin said:

Because if you don't know that Ned thought he had the military support of the Gold Cloaks behind him when he marched into the Throne Room to arrest Cersei and Joffrey (and Sansa does not know it), his actions DO look like that of a fool...marching in there with only his own men from WF, outnumbered, and easily overpowered. 

Did Sansa actually call Ned a fool? I don't remember.

Sansa to Jon-- You have to be smarter then Father, smarter then Robb; I love them I miss  them, but they made stupid mistakes and they both lost their heads for it.

Jon to Sansa - So how do I be smarter, by listening to you?

Sansa- Would that be so terrible?

Enter the maester with raven scroll demanding Jon to bend the knee.

[GrailKing]

15 hours ago, screamin said:

I'm wondering if the evidence against LF somehow contained in the copies of ravenmail might be the letter from Lysa accusing the Lannisters of murdering Jon C? But that would only implicate Lysa, not LF directly. In the books the letter didn't arrive by ravenmail - it arrived hidden in a package. Did the letter arrive by ravenmail on the show?

That letter was hidden in a box, delivered on horse foot to WF for Cat's eyes only it had the Arryn seal unbroken.

Why would Lewin keep a copy?

He may jot in his journal what transpire, but not copy it

[GrailKing]

14 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

From what Sansa does know, Robb broke a marriage pact with Walder Frey and then accepted the apology of a man known to hold a grudge and expected everything to be A-OK! Robb is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.

When did she know this, I don't remember this in show or book:

In show Tyrion goes to tell her, but he sees her crying at a window ( who told her )

In Book She cry's in her bed room in private.

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

All three of them punished the man who did the crime and forgave the children, although you could argue that Ned "punished" Theon by taking him as his ward, but it doesn't seem like too much of a punishment, he treated him nicely and if the events of the book/show didn't happen I'm guessing Ned would've been more then happy to see Theon become Lord of the Iron Islands and Lord Reaper of Pyke.

And if Balon would've acted up, Ned would've slit this innocent child's throat without a moment's pause.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

If it didn't happen in this episode, it doesn't belong in this topic. Posts that aren't at least 90% about this episode will be removed.

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Tyrion is still fighting Tywin.  Tywin would have sent troops to secure Casterly Rock. He would have seen its loss as a major shame for the family.  Tyrion should have noted how his siblings have rebelled against Tywin as well.  They give no shits about that piece of real estate.  Cersei only wants to be Queen, and Jaime had to be blackmailed in order to agree to be made Lord of Casterly Rock.

That's bloody brilliant. Never occured to me but you're right.  Tyrion's targeting the things that matter most to Tywin and Jamie anticipated this and used Robb's method for countering Tywin. So in the way, they're both countering Tywin.  Also, Jamie is showing Tyrion alot of respect, he knew that  Tyrion would find a way to get the Rock and he planned accordingly.

As to Jamie still being with Cersei, we have to give him a break, Jamie has nobody else to turn to.  Until this week, he thought his brother betrayed him,  he's done way too many bad things for anybody not named Bron, tyrion or Brienne to even like him. He's trapped with Cersei for better or worst.

Ironically, Qot didn't get quite the victory she thinks she did.  I doubt that Jamie tells Cersei anything, and she just  exonerated Tyrion to Jaime thereby making it possible for Jaime and Tyrion to reconnect if both survive this war.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I'd like to see how the next 4 episodes play out before we conclude Sansa hasn't done anything. And if she doesn't, I would still like her as a character even if she just sat around Winterfell sewing cloaks and eating lemon cakes. 

That's fine. We all like different characters for different reasons.

Now that Jon is gone from Winterfell, this is the opportunity for the character to actually do something useful. We saw the first signs of that, with her talking about food stores and armor (lol!) . But now she is stuck with LF. The fact that she is giving this dangerous sleazeball free reign in Winterfell where he can plot to his heart's content is already a negative against her supposed high IQ levels.

4 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

I don't think Dany is a Mary Sue, but I think a difference here is that Sansa has been shown to make mistakes and to apologize for things she's done or said.  But most often Dany thinks she can do no wrong.  But she does make a lot of mistakes(which is also why Dany is not a Mary Sue.  Cause Mary Sues are never seen to make mistakes) and she is either oblivious to the consequences or they are solved with quick resolutions like just knocking some torches over.  For example, when Dany stops the Dothraki from raping the Lamb women.  She's doing the right thing.  But she doesn't comprehend that the lamb women are just going to let bygones be bygones(Jon does something similar with the wildlings).  So when Drogo is killed, she doesn't take any blame for what happens or even appears to want to understand.

This very episode we had Dany apologize to Jon for her father's mistakes.  And neither has Sansa apologized for all her mistakes. Has Sansa apologized to the Northerners for hiding the presence of the Vale army from them - leading to hundreds of them dying needlessly? But that's just resolved quickly by Jon shrugging it off and giving her a kiss on the forehead.  Did Sansa apologize to Jon for undermining him in front of the Northern houses? Did Sansa apologize to Arya for siding against her during the incident at the trident? Sansa blames Ned and his stupid mistakes for not protecting her in KL, even though she made her share of mistakes while there. Sansa blames LF for handing her over to the Boltons even though she agreed to the scheme in the first place.

4 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

The other main problem with Dany's story so far for me, is that for the most part until now Dany has only faced cartoon character villains who are easily outsmarted and dealt with.  She's basically been living in a fantasy story, inside a fantasy story.  When you have read 5 books and watched nearly 7 seasons of Starks being beheaded, beaten, nearly raped, raped, murdered, have their bodies defiled and a myriad of other mental torments, it is easy to just brush away Dany's accomplishments(which I don't agree that they are not real accomplishments, they are.  She freed 100's of thousands of slaves, that's a big accomplishment), because the writing for her after Season 1/Book 1 was just spinning its wheels and just giving her things against lesser adversaries.

That's fine. People like the stories they like. I dislike show Sansa - right now she is an amalgamation of several different characters in the series. What gets me is when people say that they like Sansa, Arya and Dany equally, but...Arya is weird, creepy and possibly a serial killer, Dany is arrogant, entitled, stupid, cruel and Sansa is kind, smart, apologetic, genius mastermind, 'symbolic heart of WF'  etc.  Sorry, but like Ned says, everything before the word 'but' is horseshit.

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

3. She is starting to believe her own hype. Dany is certainly a charismatic leader who has gone through a lot to get to where she is, and she has some skill at strategy, and finding good people and getting them to positions of power, but she still doesn't have much experience actually ruling, and she seems to be underestimating the amount of trepidation people in Westeros have about bending the knee to a Taryagiyn with dragons, Unsullied, and Dothraki. She seems to have abandoned her underdog ways and is now banking on her name and dragons, without giving anyone better reasons to want her as their queen. At least before, she had the moral high ground against the slavers, what's her excuse here? Things in Westeros aren't great, but does she really think she will be better than any other candidates?

Who has the experience to rule currently? Most of the older generation is dead. The current generation is learning. People don't gain the throne because of experience in Westeros. They do it because of their name and ancestry. Did Robert have experience when he took the throne? What reason was there to want him as king? Or Robb, when he became KITN? Or Renly? Or even Stannis for that matter? Had any of them ruled anywhere? They all wanted to rule and become kings because of their name and ancestry. Not because of their resume. Dany is actually the first person in a long time who has actually ruled over disparate people before claiming the Iron Throne.

None of the nobles care about what the people of Westeros want. And the people of Westeros themselves seem like idiots. Cersei blew up hundreds of people last season and yet here we have the people cheering on her victories. They don't seem to care about how nice their leaders are. Dany will fit right in perfectly.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[Shimmergloom]

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

This very episode we had Dany apologize to Jon for her father's mistakes.  And neither has Sansa apologized for all her mistakes. Has Sansa apologized to the Northerners for hiding the presence of the Vale army from them - leading to hundreds of them dying needlessly? But that's just resolved quickly by Jon shrugging it off and giving her a kiss on the forehead.  Did Sansa apologize to Jon for undermining him in front of the Northern houses? Did Sansa apologize to Arya for siding against her during the incident at the trident? Sansa blames Ned and his stupid mistakes for not protecting her in KL, even though she made her share of mistakes while there. Sansa blames LF for handing her over to the Boltons even though she agreed to the scheme in the first place.

Dany apologizing for her father, isn't Dany admitting to any of her own mistakes.

Can't really talk about the rest now.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[Meredith Quill]

4 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Can't really talk about the rest now.

You can; quote it and take it to the Dany or Sansa topic in the Character Discussions subforum.

[Insomnia]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:24 PM, jcin617 said:

He knows about Jon, I don't think that happened in front of a tree?

My fanwank for that is that that Bran can see blood relatives without a tree - that's how he was able to see Winterfell in the past as it wasn't right next to the tree either.

[darkestboy]

Great episode, fair amount managed to happen as well.

Olenna's final moments with Jaime were absolutely superb. Loved that she told him about Joffrey as well as she was downing the poison.

Can't say I feel too bad for Ellaria and Tyene. Yes, Cersei's revenge on them was horrible but they somewhat brought it upon themselves, so there's that really.

Dany seemed to be losing a lot in this episode. I hope she gets an upper hand fairly soon though.

Her first meeting with Jon could've been better but the potential with the two of them is there and I did like that she gave him the dragonglass to use after listening to Tyrion about him.

Nice tense scene with Varys and Melisandre as well. I really liked that moment with those two.

Loved the reunion with Sansa and Bran, even if it got weird very fast though, 9/10

[Haleth]

Talking about Varys and Euron transporting all over the map got me wondering how Olenna got home so quickly.  Did she and her entourage go by land, right past King's Landing?  Or did her ships speed around the continent, past Euron's fleet?  I suppose with a story about dragons and ice zombies we have to handwave that people can get to where they need to be for the plot without much trouble.

[Hana Chan]

One major thing about Dany's first meeting with Jon is perplexing to me. Despite the fact that Tyrion was vouching for Jon and urged her to meet with him (he's one of the very, very few that Dany really trusts), she was openly hostile from the instant that she agreed to call Jon to Dragonstone (with clear instructions that he should come to bend the knee). The moment Jon hit the shores, he was surrounded by Dothraki who had their weapons drawn the entire time. I don't have an issue with Jon surrendering his weapon (since that would make sense) but leaving Jon and his men unarmed and surrounded by men who were not just armed, but had their weapons drawn and out in the open just sends a very hostile message.

Then we get the throne room scene, where Dany gets her titles recited and to be frank, Dany acting like a bitch. Rather than treating the man who was currently in charge of one of the largest territories in the seven kingdoms as a potential ally, she treated him as she would a potential enemy. If anything, her behavior would ensure a negative  response from Jon, which was what she got. He's learned not to be intimidated by arrogant nobles throwing their titles around and stood his ground. In her mind, because she had her Dothraki and Unsullied, along with the Tyrells, the Sands and a big part of House Greyjoy on her side (not to mention the dragons), she no longer needed any allies in Westeros. This was stupid and short sighted.

Now she's lost all of her Westeros allies. Olenna is dead, and the surviving Sands are prisoners and not long for this world. The Greyjoy fleet is sunk and Yara is captured. Now her Unsullied are trapped at Casterly Rock. So I'm guessing that the next ep will have a more congenial effort from Dany to get Jon on her side, but she already did some serious damage to their relationship. Now she's going to look like a fool, asking for Jon's aid because her forces have been decimated and she's lost her upper hand in their dealings. A little magnanimity when they first met, and less belittling would have gone a long way towards a healthy cooperation between the two of them.  

[Tikichick]

12 hours ago, LanceM said:

I have a question. If it does not matter what "skeleton" sits on the Iron Throne when the army of the dead start killing everybody in sight then why should it matter who is king of the north?  Why shouldn't Jon kneel? It seems to me that he is putting his own ambitions ahead of the big picture as much as Dany.

Because he considers himself a representatives of the northern houses, including house Stark which does not belong to him, as well as the wildlings.  He doesn't really look at being king of the north much like traditionally being a king and feels he made a bargain of trust with all these people who put their faith in him.  Besides, if he bends the knee Dany could simply order him to take the northern houses to fight Cersei's forces for her, leaving no one but the NW to handle the night's king and the walkers.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Talking about Varys and Euron transporting all over the map got me wondering how Olenna got home so quickly.  Did she and her entourage go by land, right past King's Landing?  Or did her ships speed around the continent, past Euron's fleet?  I suppose with a story about dragons and ice zombies we have to handwave that people can get to where they need to be for the plot without much trouble.

My fanwank is that the timelines for the different stories are also different. Jon got to Dragonstone, and that trip might have taken 3 weeks, and while he was traveling there, Bran and Meera arrived in Winterfell. The timeline merges when different characters are sharing scenes. This drives me less crazy. 

[TarotQueen]

5 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

One major thing about Dany's first meeting with Jon is perplexing to me. Despite the fact that Tyrion was vouching for Jon and urged her to meet with him (he's one of the very, very few that Dany really trusts), she was openly hostile from the instant that she agreed to call Jon to Dragonstone (with clear instructions that he should come to bend the knee). The moment Jon hit the shores, he was surrounded by Dothraki who had their weapons drawn the entire time. I don't have an issue with Jon surrendering his weapon (since that would make sense) but leaving Jon and his men unarmed and surrounded by men who were not just armed, but had their weapons drawn and out in the open just sends a very hostile message.

Then we get the throne room scene, where Dany gets her titles recited and to be frank, Dany acting like a bitch. Rather than treating the man who was currently in charge of one of the largest territories in the seven kingdoms as a potential ally, she treated him as she would a potential enemy. If anything, her behavior would ensure a negative  response from Jon, which was what she got. He's learned not to be intimidated by arrogant nobles throwing their titles around and stood his ground. In her mind, because she had her Dothraki and Unsullied, along with the Tyrells, the Sands and a big part of House Greyjoy on her side (not to mention the dragons), she no longer needed any allies in Westeros. This was stupid and short sighted.

Now she's lost all of her Westeros allies. Olenna is dead, and the surviving Sands are prisoners and not long for this world. The Greyjoy fleet is sunk and Yara is captured. Now her Unsullied are trapped at Casterly Rock. So I'm guessing that the next ep will have a more congenial effort from Dany to get Jon on her side, but she already did some serious damage to their relationship. Now she's going to look like a fool, asking for Jon's aid because her forces have been decimated and she's lost her upper hand in their dealings. A little magnanimity when they first met, and less belittling would have gone a long way towards a healthy cooperation between the two of them.  

I thought that your post was at the root of that last scene between them.  Dany realizing, 'oh shit, better try to make nice with this guy real quick before he finds out i just lost all my local allies.'

[Katsullivan]

10 hours ago, doram said:

In both cases, one person raises valid question is raised, and the other person gives a non-answer. Varys never answers why he thought Viserys would be a good King. Jon never explains why he won't kneel to get the help he needed.

 

The conflict was just there for Teh Drama. There's no logical reason for Jon not to kneel if that's what he needs to do to get the help that he needs. Like Tyrion pointed out, it's basically a meaningless gesture and he keeps saying he doesn't want to be King but when he's actually compelled to give it up for the Greater Good, he baulks. Him saying that the North will be betrayed if he kneels is laughable because the North will die if he doesn't. 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, doram said:

I can't get over her telling the Matter of Arms to line armor with leather. I'm not doubting that a 'sweet summer child's won't know this but I'm laughing at the concept of a seasoned warrior who actually lived through Winter being written as incapable of his job so that so Sansa could shine.

We don't know if leather lining is a luxury that only Ned and his cronies would get (leather isn't cheap, after all) while lesser soldiers make do with wearing extra layers of wool. Maybe her order made standard what had previously been optional. Regardless of whether she ordered something that would've happened anyway or not, I took it as part of the overall theme that she desperately wanted to do the best she could with the job she had been given, from strategically stockpiling food in the most defensible area for all to use, down to concern about the soldier who would wear that armor. On the whole, I think it's commendable, especially given her pleasure in reminding Bran that HE was the true Lord of WF - a title she'd thought hers till then. It shows she's not interested in power for self aggrandizement or for its own sake.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Dany is actually the first person in a long time who has actually ruled over disparate people before claiming the Iron Throne.

As someone said above, Dany lists her titles almost like a resume. She didn't rule smoothly in the territories she conquered in Essos but she learned the hard lessons of ruling and she stayed to learn them when she could easily have travelled West with her army and dragons. 

Also it's a catch-22. If Dany's rule in Essos had been smooth and strife-free, she'd be accused of being a Mary Sue who makes no mistakes. Since it wasn't, she's accused of being a failure (even though she does establish peaceful rule and trade in the cities while keeping it slavery free). 

19 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Then we get the throne room scene, where Dany gets her titles recited and to be frank, Dany acting like a bitch.

That's wrong and it's a sad part of society's misogyny that a woman talking herself up is regarded as her being bitchy especially when she's up against a far less qualified man, something that happens in both fiction and real life. 

Dany's apology for Aerys was not "bitchy" or arrogant and actually threw Jon because he wasn't expecting it. She then extended a hand of friendship, asking him to take up being Warden and support her being Queen. If she was really being Aegon-Arrogant, she'd have simply said "? There can only be one.?"

You're also forgetting that there was a serious lack of communication in that room. Jon came to Dragonstone thinking he was invited as an ally. Dany sent out an order to her subject to come and tell her his story and bend the knee. Neither knew that Tyrion had "translated" the message Dany sent. 

Jon showing up to Dragonstone, refusing to bend the knee and demanding her help struck Dany as him being arrogant. 

22 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

So I'm guessing that the next ep will have a more congenial effort from Dany to get Jon on her side, but she already did some serious damage to their relationship. Now she's going to look like a fool, asking for Jon's aid because her forces have been decimated and she's lost her upper hand in their dealings.

Dany's losses are actually his losses more than hers. Because she can still win her war - but it's going to take longer and use all* her resources. So she'll take longer to help him with his Northern/Wall problem and she'll have less men to spare to help him mine dragonglass or join his Army. 

 

 

*You're forgetting that Dany never needed the Tyrell or the Dorne or the Ironborn. She had her army and her ships and her dragons. She could have marched to Westeros and scored a victory 2 seasons ago if she was willing to go the "Scorched Earth" route. The whole point of using the Tyrells and Dorne was to avoid the bad optics of "Foreign Invasion Army". In that plan, the Dothraki were entirely redundant and the Unsullied were only going to score a "Moral victory" of winning Casterly Rock. 

Well that's failed. If she wants to co-opt the Northern Army, that's tantamount to her repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results. Strategically too, the Northern Army - all the way above the Neck - have even less chance of getting to her on time than the Unsullied across the continent. 

Right now, Dany's best option is to take the army that she does have, and her dragons and do Scorched Earth against the Lannister armies and Cersei's allies. 

So nope, I'm guessing that it's still going to be Jon begging for dragon-fire and Dany's help in the weeks to come, and now with even less hope of getting them when he needs to.

[FnkyChkn34]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

The easiest way to ensure that no one focuses on unimportant things is to get them right. Viewers are rarely distracted by things making too much sense.

The show is so well done overall though, that I can still overlook something as simple as "time passed, people traveled."  It does make sense.

I re-watched it last night (coincidentally was just on when I hit the power button - imagine that!) and I picked up on something Tyrion said.  When they were discussing Euron's attack and the status of their armada and what to do next, Tyrion said (paraphrased), "We don't know where Euron is now.  We don't know if he's split up his fleet and is in more than one place."  So I think that's the writers' way of saying that Euron split up his ships. 

[Katsullivan]

16 minutes ago, screamin said:

We don't know if leather lining is a luxury that only Ned and his cronies would get (leather isn't cheap, after all) while lesser soldiers make do with wearing extra layers of wool. Maybe her order made standard what had previously been optional. Regardless of whether she ordered something that would've happened anyway or not, I took it as part of the overall theme that she desperately wanted to do the best she could with the job she had been given, from strategically stockpiling food in the most defensible area for all to use, down to concern about the soldier who would wear that armor. On the whole, I think it's commendable, especially given her pleasure in reminding Bran that HE was the true Lord of WF - a title she'd thought hers till then. It shows she's not interested in power for self aggrandizement or for its own sake.

There was no wool. There was no lining in the armour. And the way the way the conversation went, Sansa was reminding the Master of Arms that the armour needed leather when the "real Winter set in." He didn't say "oh, we only keep leather for the Lords but there's wool for the foot soldiers" or "that's what the wool is for". He went "Oh, yeah, that's a great idea, Lady Sansa! I'll get to it."

It had never even occurred to this seasoned Master of Arms to line the armour at all.

It's nice to show Sansa trying to do her best but when they need to make everyone else stupid to prop her up, it's ridiculous story-telling and personally, it threw me out of that scene completely. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Katsullivan

[screamin]

20 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

There was no wool. There was no lining in the armour. And the way the way the conversation went, Sansa was reminding the Master of Arms that the armour needed leather when the "real Winter set in." He didn't say "oh, we only keep leather for the Lords but there's wool for the foot soldiers" or "that's what the wool is for". He went "Oh, yeah, that's a great idea, Lady Sansa! I'll get to it."

It had never even occurred to this seasoned Master of Arms to line the armour at all.

It's nice to show Sansa trying to do her best but when they need to make everyone else stupid to prop her up, it's ridiculous story-telling and personally, it threw me out of that scene completely. 

You can read it as him being an idiot, or him humoring an inexperienced leader trying to do her best by ordering him to do something he might have been planning to have done anyway (he's a blacksmith, after all, if a leather lining would be added that was someone else's job), or him dealing with an unexpected order without arguing with his ladyship. Either way, the scene's not really about him, it's about Sansa and the things she concerns herself with. And regardless of whether she was giving an order that would be of great benefit to the common soldier, or just teaching granny to suck eggs, what it shows is that she wants to help, down to the detail of not having a common soldier freeze. This is to her credit regardless.

[WatchrTina]

23 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It had never even occurred to this seasoned Master of Arms to line the armour at all.

What makes you think she was speaking to a seasoned "Master of Arms"?  I thought she was speaking to a senior advisor from the Vale and they were just walking by -- it's not like he had personally been overseeing the armor work.  As for as the guy who was working on the armor -- who knows who that was ?  He was probably someone else from the Vale since the original inhabitants of Winterfell are scattered now.  If so, as a young man from a more southern area, he might not have known about need to line winter armor with leather.  As soon as Sansa pointed it out the senior advisor agreed with her.  She just noticed it first.  I don't get what all the debate is about.

[jeansheridan]

10 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Euron's huge fleet not being seeing by anyone adn travelling at warp speed is just absurd.

This keeps being said and if Euron doesn't stay with his fleet between the first attack and second attack against the Unsullied,  I can see it working.

Ep 1.  He brings his fleet to Kings Landing so he is on that side of the Continent.  We don't even know IF that is his entire fleet. Plus the Crown has its own ships. Maybe not a huge navy but some. When Jaime goes to Dorne Bronn comments about not traveling in a Lannister ship.

EP 2. It seems generally known that Dany has landed. There is enough time for her Dorne allies and Olenna to travel to Dragonstone. Euron hides his fleet in the Narrow Sea which he probably knows better than Yara. He has a lot more experience playing hide and seek.

The Unsullied leave Dragonstone on which ships?  Maybe the slavers fleet. Euron could send some of his ships to trail after.

He attacks the second group of ships. And yes Yara, who was the naval expert in their group,  blew it. Really blew it. 

Some torture and they definitely know where the Unsullied are going. Why not attack?  Maybe not enough ships?  Unsure. But I think he has an eye on a massive armada of the UnSullied.

Euron detours with his sole ship to Kings Landing.  Cersei declares him her naval leader. Before he was freelancing. Now he has more resources. 

He jumps back into his massive ship which is four times the size. I honestly don't know if those big sails make it faster but clearly he catches up to his fleet.

And in all of this Cersei mentions a fortnight to the Iron Banker. So she expects to get The Reach within two weeks. I am assuming Jaime had the Lannister army marching well before Euron showed up with his prisoners. 

It works for me. I really don't need it shown on screen. So long as time works within a scene, I am okay. Like the blowing up of the Sept or the Red Wedding.

[Tikichick]

Watched the episode again last night to look for all the detail I missed.

Jon's accent?  IMO it's simply reverting back to where it started.  If I remember correctly Kit stated in interviews he was attempting to pattern it largely after Ned's accent.

Just because it's been discussed in the thread -- the band of Lannister soldiers Arya ran across were scouting the Riverlands.  Yes, River Run is certainly there, but not their specific destination.

Can't help wondering if Meera has sent a raven to her father, either from the Wall or WF -- unless he has greenseeing abilities and can keep tabs himself that way.

Noticed a perceptible thawing/acceptance in Dany when Jon very forthrightly and frustratedly stated, "I am not your enemy, Your Grace."  Seemed to me she clocked it and was inclined to accept it and began to make her own measure of the man standing before her.

The most significant thing I noticed this time around was with LF and Sansa.  Granted, we understand he's not to be trusted and that he talks in circles.  But on second listen I'm not sure what to make of what he said, particularly considering what he said precisely the moment before Bran arrived.  I couldn't help notice that the very last bits he imparts to Sansa could almost have been scripted for Bran to attempt to explain the concept of the Three Eyed Raven -- "Everything possible to happen or happened is all happening at the same time . . ."  Suddenly one of the guards is there, summoning Sansa to the gate, where Bran has arrived, possibly the living embodiment of LF's very words to Sansa just moments before.  No idea what to make out of that, but now I think there is more to LF than scheming and plotting afterall.

[Katsullivan]

49 minutes ago, screamin said:

Either way, the scene's not really about him, it's about Sansa and the things she concerns herself with. And regardless of whether she was giving an order that would be of great benefit to the common soldier, or just teaching granny to suck eggs, what it shows is that she wants to help, down to the detail of not having a common soldier freeze. This is to her credit regardless.

Well I already said that the entire purpose of the scene was to prop up Sansa so there's nothing to disagree with here.

Of course, if the only way they can make Sansa look good at anything is to make other people stupid then that doesn't say much about her.

 

45 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

What makes you think she was speaking to a seasoned "Master of Arms"?  

That's a lot to expect the audience to assume from one scene. We know that several Northern lords still have standing armies, with I assume, experienced generals in charge. But we're to assume that Jon left one of Littlefinger's men in charge of equipping his army? 

IF (and that's a big IF) that really was some random Vale advisor organising Northern armies, then Sansa comes across as stupid and incompetent because the first order of her business as Lady of Winterfell would be to appoint a Master of Arms from the North who actually knows what he's doing and not someone who may or may not be in Littlefinger's pocket. Smart leaders surround themselves with competent people and delegate accordingly. We're constantly told about how clever and suave and worldly-wise she is, but between this and her need to keep Littlefinger close by, we're not being shown it. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Hana Chan]

6 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Dany's apology for Aerys was not "bitchy" or arrogant and actually threw Jon because he wasn't expecting it. She then extended a hand of friendship, asking him to take up being Warden and support her being Queen. If she was really being Aegon-Arrogant, she'd have simply said "? There can only be one.?"

Dany didn't so much as apologize for her father's actions as she insisted that she shouldn't be held responsible for his behavior. Which is fair enough. She's not responsible for what her father did to the Starks. But in almost the next beat, she claimed rightful rule over Westeros because of her parentage. Just a little of wanting it both ways.

And she was arrogant by initially refusing to use Jon's proper title, because whether she likes it or not, she's not yet Queen of Westeros (she's merely the latest in a pretty significant line of claimants), but Jon is currently king of a territory that has fully broken away from the central power in Kings Landing. That "hand of friendship" would mean placing the North back under the rule of the south, something that would not go at all well with the Northern Lords who placed their trust in him.

As for her not needing Jon, I've never seen anyone entering a war thinking "You know... I really do have too many allies. I just don't need anymore, so no thanks." Right now, Dany controls a very, very small portion of territory in Westeros, and only took it because it had been abandoned after the death of Stannis. And Cersi has been playing up the fact that Dany is not just the daughter of the Mad King, but is leading foreign invaders that would pillage their way through Westeros (which is cementing her support as protector). Dany needed local allies. Partly for the optics (to blunt the argument that she was leading foreigners against Westeros), but also to give her control of territory. Before this episode, she had control over Highgarden, Dorne and very possibly the Iron Islands. Now she just has Dragon Stone and Casterly Rock (which the Lannisters willingly abandoned in order to trap a major portion of Dany's forces). Sure, she's got the dragons, but as was pointed out this week, they can only be used if she's directing them which not only would put her in direct danger (and if a stray arrow happens to catch her, that would end the Targaryen restoration pretty quickly), but it could cause massive civilian casualties which would give Cersi a huge PR win to use in her favor. Her options now are pretty limited at this point.

She was foolish in putting on airs as Queen (right now being queen of nothing), insulting a guest and squandering her forces and missing the opportunity to take out Cersi before she had a chance to consolidate her power. That's not being misogynistic to note her serious mistakes, or to point out that she's now in a bad position where she needs Jon at least as much as he needs her. Because at the rate she's going, she and what's left of her allies would likely be dead long before the Wall comes now. 

[VCRTracking]

I like the detail that Cersei made her handmaiden get the same haircut as her and similar outfit.

Edited August 1, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

One major thing about Dany's first meeting with Jon is perplexing to me. Despite the fact that Tyrion was vouching for Jon and urged her to meet with him (he's one of the very, very few that Dany really trusts), she was openly hostile from the instant that she agreed to call Jon to Dragonstone (with clear instructions that he should come to bend the knee). The moment Jon hit the shores, he was surrounded by Dothraki who had their weapons drawn the entire time. I don't have an issue with Jon surrendering his weapon (since that would make sense) but leaving Jon and his men unarmed and surrounded by men who were not just armed, but had their weapons drawn and out in the open just sends a very hostile message.

Then we get the throne room scene, where Dany gets her titles recited and to be frank, Dany acting like a bitch. Rather than treating the man who was currently in charge of one of the largest territories in the seven kingdoms as a potential ally, she treated him as she would a potential enemy. If anything, her behavior would ensure a negative  response from Jon, which was what she got. He's learned not to be intimidated by arrogant nobles throwing their titles around and stood his ground. In her mind, because she had her Dothraki and Unsullied, along with the Tyrells, the Sands and a big part of House Greyjoy on her side (not to mention the dragons), she no longer needed any allies in Westeros. This was stupid and short sighted.

Now she's lost all of her Westeros allies. Olenna is dead, and the surviving Sands are prisoners and not long for this world. The Greyjoy fleet is sunk and Yara is captured. Now her Unsullied are trapped at Casterly Rock. So I'm guessing that the next ep will have a more congenial effort from Dany to get Jon on her side, but she already did some serious damage to their relationship. Now she's going to look like a fool, asking for Jon's aid because her forces have been decimated and she's lost her upper hand in their dealings. A little magnanimity when they first met, and less belittling would have gone a long way towards a healthy cooperation between the two of them.  

Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, Owner but not Reader of Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

As someone said above, Dany lists her titles almost like a resume. She didn't rule smoothly in the territories she conquered in Essos but she learned the hard lessons of ruling and she stayed to learn them when she could easily have travelled West with her army and dragons. 

Also it's a catch-22. If Dany's rule in Essos had been smooth and strife-free, she'd be accused of being a Mary Sue who makes no mistakes. Since it wasn't, she's accused of being a failure (even though she does establish peaceful rule and trade in the cities while keeping it slavery free). 

That's wrong and it's a sad part of society's misogyny that a woman talking herself up is regarded as her being bitchy especially when she's up against a far less qualified man, something that happens in both fiction and real life. 

 

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Critiquing Dany for her lack of leadership skills, and engaging in debate regarding it, is not misogyny.  Frankly, it's a discredit to those who oppose misogyny, as it dillutes its meaning and use. It just can't be thrown around when someone criticizes a woman's qualifications or actions. 

 

As to your Mary Sue comment, you're conflating the storyline with the narrative.  There's no catch-22.  Your comparing, on one hand, the events within the storyline -- Dany's strife-filled rule of cities of Essos -- with the audience's reaction should she have been more successful.  

 

Third, she didn't end slavery in some of the cities -- Tyrion re-instituted it, with a phase out plan. And while Dany wasn't pleased, she didn't take the time to sit down and map out a different strategy.  She, and again how is this not the point to end all points as to how poor of a ruler she was -- she put her mercenary boyfriend, ex-boyfriend at that -- in charge. That's even worse than turning over the keys to one's idiot son-in-law. 

 

Finally, between the two -- Jon and Dany -- there is absolutely no question, to me, which is better qualified for any leadership position. And Jon isn't overreaching, trying to be king of the seven kingdoms. He was voted -- by his peers -- not once, but twice, to lead them.  He knows his people -- he has demonstrated that he cares about the well being of his people and his realm.  He is from this country, and knows how it works. He has successfully negotiated with opposing forces. He has sought common ground. He has made difficult choices because he believes they are right. And he accomplished about 99% of what he's done with relying on his magical animal. There's no question. There's no misogyny. Jon is by far the better "candidate" to be a leader in Westeros.  And let's be clear -- they aren't even seeking the same position! She's asking him to be subservient to her!!

Edited August 1, 2017 by Francie

[Dev F]

13 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

IF (and that's a big IF) that really was some random Vale advisor organising Northern armies, then Sansa comes across as stupid and incompetent because the first order of her business as Lady of Winterfell would be to appoint a Master of Arms from the North who actually knows what he's doing and not someone who may or may not be in Littlefinger's pocket.

(shrug) We don't know that this was the Winterfell master at arms or that he was the sole armorsmith at work in the keep. All we know is that he was one guy who wasn't making armor right, and that he seemed to be under the supervision of Lord Royce of the Vale. So I think the writers left enough wiggle room so that it kinda made sense.

After all, Royce didn't have to be in the scene at all. It could've been one of the northern lords or just Maester Wolkan who was taking orders from Sansa. I suspect they gave the armor conversation to Royce specifically because it wouldn't make sense for any of the Northerners to have overlooked that particular detail. Which in turn suggests, I think, that the point wasn't to make Sansa look like she was some kind of cool genius but just that she was competent, well versed in the specific demands of a Northern household. Which is why this bothers me much less than something like Sam "discovering" that a volcanic island has lots of volcanic rocks on it.

[Tikichick]

10 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I like the detail of Cersei made her handmaiden get the same haircut as her.

So very Cersei to do.  Mark me as shamed, will you?  I will make it a boss bitch mark of triumph for everyone to see -- middle finger salute implied of course.

[rmontro]

12 hours ago, MrsR said:

The Unsullied went to Casterly Rock. The Dothraki stayed home at Dragonstone.

You're right, I got confused.  Thanks to you and LanceM for straightening that out.

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, anamika said:

But it worked!! I like how when Jon's decisions are right, he just gets lucky - it's not because he has the right instincts. But Sansa is apparently right, even though she was wrong! Jon trusted in Tyrion's character and went south - and he was right - Tyrion negotiated and bargained and got Dany to agree to Jon mining the dragon glass. And sorry, but are you saying that the dragon glass is worthless? That making dragon glass tipped arrows for those archers training in the yard is useless?

Jon's mission was to get dragon glass, dragon fire and more men. Step one is accomplished. I am sure he will keep trying.  If he had listened to Sansa and stayed in WF, they would have got nothing.

Jon was lucky, he was lucky in that Tyrion was the intermediary and not someone else, in that vain it was wise of Dany to make him her Hand.

Sansa is right and has been correct, there is no question on that; for all his planning right now Jon is a prisoner "guest" of Danerys  .

And people sometimes forget that both sides of the equation are right from the life they lived.

If he listen to Sansa, he would have sent Davos and someone else, Tyrion knows Davos also, not as well as Jon so they could still get DG.

As of right now that mission isn't accomplished , it's in transition, it won't be accomplished until he is back at Winterfell, until then he is in some danger. 

[Hana Chan]

31 minutes ago, Francie said:

Finally, between the two -- Jon and Dany -- there is absolutely no question, to me, which is better qualified for any leadership position. And Jon isn't overreaching, trying to be king of the seven kingdoms. He was voted -- by his peers -- not once, but twice, to lead them.  He knows his people -- he has demonstrated that he cares about the well being of his people and his realm.  He is from this country, and knows how it works. He has successfully negotiated with opposing forces. He has sought common ground. He has made difficult choices because he believes they are right. And he accomplished about 99% of what he's done with relying on his magical animal. There's no question. There's no misogyny. Jon is by far the better "candidate" to be a leader in Westeros.  And let's be clear -- they aren't even seeking the same position! She's asking him to be subservient to her!!

Exactly. Dany wasn't offering any kind of alliance. She was demanding that Jon sacrifice the current independent status of the North and return to being just another territory under her rule. And worse, she offered Jon absolutely nothing in return. She didn't take his insistence about the long winter at all seriously and got very bent out of joint when she thought that he was personally insulting her by calling the war over the Iron Throne a children's squabble. She wasn't reaching out with an open hand, but holding up a closed fist. And Jon called her bluff.

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Jon was lucky, he was lucky in that Tyrion was the intermediary and not someone else, in that vain it was wise of Dany to make him her Hand.

Jon only went because the request came from Tyrion, someone that he'd had personal experience with and trusted. If it had been Joe Schmo from FraLa land, it's doubtful that he would have made the same decision. He went because he knew that there was someone there who would speak favorably on his behalf, and that person was in a position of influence with Dany. What he did was make a calculated risk, which ended up paying off when all was said and done. He's getting the dragon glass (his primary goal) and now Dany is in a position where she's going to have to bargain in better faith to get Jon's help. Frankly, he's going to be in a far stronger bargaining position and can make his own demands.

[YaddaYadda]

Stepping into the Dany or Sansa argument is like walking through a mined field.

I thought it was interesting that Viserys was brought up in the second episode, and how stupid and gullible he was, Dany in her scene with Jon when she told him to bend the knee sort of reminded me of Viserys in that their expectations of the Westerosi lords is similar. She expected that Jon would bend the knee because her claim to the throne is more solid than Cersei's. And the point Jon made was that he won't because he doesn't know her, which is why nothing is working the way it should for her. Randyll Tarly threw down with Cersei even though he showed much contempt for the Lannisters while talking to Jaime. Jon summed up perfectly why Westeros isn't rallying around her. There is no chance in hell Olenna would have backed Dany had Margaery been alive. The dornish, maybe, even if Oberyn had lived because they wanted vengeance for Elia.

The best move would have been for Dany to actually go and meet the lords one by one to get them to her side instead of perhaps thinking that she'd have their backing after what Cersei did. 

But yeah, this is a TV show and we need extra drama and extra stress and tables to flip.

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Speaking of Chekov on Star Trek.....did anyone notice Bran's new haircut? All he needs is some pointy ears, and he's now Mr. Spock, version 4.0, all calm and dispassionate, emotionless, logical, and pedantically explaining everything that is unknowable by obvservation at the current time.  I see Star Trek reboot movies in Isaac Hempstead-Wright's future, if they need to cast a teenage Spock.

Cersei needs to be the new Romulian  Queen.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

One major thing about Dany's first meeting with Jon is perplexing to me. Despite the fact that Tyrion was vouching for Jon and urged her to meet with him (he's one of the very, very few that Dany really trusts), she was openly hostile from the instant that she agreed to call Jon to Dragonstone (with clear instructions that he should come to bend the knee). The moment Jon hit the shores, he was surrounded by Dothraki who had their weapons drawn the entire time. I don't have an issue with Jon surrendering his weapon (since that would make sense) but leaving Jon and his men unarmed and surrounded by men who were not just armed, but had their weapons drawn and out in the open just sends a very hostile message.

Then we get the throne room scene, where Dany gets her titles recited and to be frank, Dany acting like a bitch. Rather than treating the man who was currently in charge of one of the largest territories in the seven kingdoms as a potential ally, she treated him as she would a potential enemy. If anything, her behavior would ensure a negative  response from Jon, which was what she got. He's learned not to be intimidated by arrogant nobles throwing their titles around and stood his ground. In her mind, because she had her Dothraki and Unsullied, along with the Tyrells, the Sands and a big part of House Greyjoy on her side (not to mention the dragons), she no longer needed any allies in Westeros. This was stupid and short sighted.

Now she's lost all of her Westeros allies. Olenna is dead, and the surviving Sands are prisoners and not long for this world. The Greyjoy fleet is sunk and Yara is captured. Now her Unsullied are trapped at Casterly Rock. So I'm guessing that the next ep will have a more congenial effort from Dany to get Jon on her side, but she already did some serious damage to their relationship. Now she's going to look like a fool, asking for Jon's aid because her forces have been decimated and she's lost her upper hand in their dealings. A little magnanimity when they first met, and less belittling would have gone a long way towards a healthy cooperation between the two of them.  

I'd chalk that up to inexperience with Westerosi Lords.  She's only dealt, thus far, with "powerful women" from Westeros.  Varys and Tyrion are not Lords of Major Houses. 

Basically, Dany was out of her depth here, and overcompensated, as you've described.  Her experiences on Slaver's Bay didn't help her either.  She's never really met with any male leaders on a somewhat equal basis, the Good Masters of Astapor tried to intimidate her (she blew them off and took their "gift", threatening them with dragons), stole the Unsullied Army, and when they beseiged Mereen, they again threatened her as a beggar queen, telling her she could leave on foot, before she mounted Drogon, flew off and captured a fleet, having Grey Worm assassinate them by cutting their throats for her temerity.  The Dothraki who captured her tried to intimidate her.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Dany is yet to learn that there are opponents, adversaries, and those whom you need to win to your side, rather than dominate to get what you want.

I suspect Tyrion let her down here as well.  He created unrealistic expectations, on both sides.  He failed to tell Jon that Dany expected a bended knee, and he failed to explain to Dany his impressions of Jon as a good guy, and how NOT to handle him by demanding what she wanted....rather to view their first meeting as an introduction, hopefully leading to a negotiation. 

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, doram said:

She expected he would bend the knee because she sent him a letter asking him to bend the knee and he turned up. 

And that's on Tyrion because it doesn't seem he told her what the content of the letter were. I think he talks about alliances, if I remember correctly, right?

Melisandre told her to summon Jon so that he may tell her of the things he has seen. The whole idea of Jon going to Dragonstone was because the long night is coming and both Dany and Jon have their roles to play. And that was completely dismissed. So when he talks of the enemy, the NK and the army of the dead, it's not like Tyrion and Dany don't know zilch about this. 

I really hate the writers sometimes.

[FnkyChkn34]

17 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

And that's on Tyrion because it doesn't seem he told her what the content of the letter were. I think he talks about alliances, if I remember correctly, right?

Melisandre told her to summon Jon so that he may tell her of the things he has seen. The whole idea of Jon going to Dragonstone was because the long night is coming and both Dany and Jon have their roles to play. And that was completely dismissed. So when he talks of the enemy, the NK and the army of the dead, it's not like Tyrion and Dany don't know zilch about this. 

I really hate the writers sometimes.

That's an excellent point I forgot about.  They should have been ready for Jon's stories.  I suppose they could not believe Melisandre, either?  And really, she's less than reputable.  But they still did what she said and should have been more open-minded.

Edited August 1, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Fix typo

[Tikichick]

32 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Stepping into the Dany or Sansa argument is like walking through a mined field.

I thought it was interesting that Viserys was brought up in the second episode, and how stupid and gullible he was, Dany in her scene with Jon when she told him to bend the knee sort of reminded me of Viserys in that their expectations of the Westerosi lords is similar. She expected that Jon would bend the knee because her claim to the throne is more solid than Cersei's. And the point Jon made was that he won't because he doesn't know her, which is why nothing is working the way it should for her. Randyll Tarly threw down with Cersei even though he showed much contempt for the Lannisters while talking to Jaime. Jon summed up perfectly why Westeros isn't rallying around her. There is no chance in hell Olenna would have backed Dany had Margaery been alive. The dornish, maybe, even if Oberyn had lived because they wanted vengeance for Elia.

The best move would have been for Dany to actually go and meet the lords one by one to get them to her side instead of perhaps thinking that she'd have their backing after what Cersei did. 

But yeah, this is a TV show and we need extra drama and extra stress and tables to flip.

Jon also scored a lot of points with Danaerys when he expressed his understanding and agreement with her for not simply going directly for KL, no matter how many citizens would die if she simply decided to blaze her way to the iron throne and throw Cersei down.  His expressing that agreement and that it made her better than Cersei on that scale registered with Dany.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Well I already said that the entire purpose of the scene was to prop up Sansa so there's nothing to disagree with here.

Of course, if the only way they can make Sansa look good at anything is to make other people stupid then that doesn't say much about her.

 

That's a lot to expect the audience to assume from one scene. We know that several Northern lords still have standing armies, with I assume, experienced generals in charge. But we're to assume that Jon left one of Littlefinger's men in charge of equipping his army? 

IF (and that's a big IF) that really was some random Vale advisor organising Northern armies, then Sansa comes across as stupid and incompetent because the first order of her business as Lady of Winterfell would be to appoint a Master of Arms from the North who actually knows what he's doing and not someone who may or may not be in Littlefinger's pocket. Smart leaders surround themselves with competent people and delegate accordingly. We're constantly told about how clever and suave and worldly-wise she is, but between this and her need to keep Littlefinger close by, we're not being shown it. 

The man in the scene is Bronze Yohn Royce, one of the Lords Declarent of the Vale.  Lord of Runestone, to be precise (his cloak had runes, which is part of his house sigil).  I have no idea why he is still in Winterfell, he's supposed to be fostering Sweet Robin back in the Vale (yet another plot hole, I might add....who has Sweet Robin?).  Bronze Yohn is the lord Littlefinger threatened last year in the scene where LF presented the gyre falcon to Sweet Robin before getting Robin to commit the Vale forces to his cousin Sansa.   Fun fact:  It was Bronze Yohn's son, Waymar Royce, who was capped by the White Walkers, beyond The Wall, in the very first scene of the series (and in the prologue in the book, too).

I doubt Bronze Yohn is "the" armorer or master at arms in Wintefell (not a Lord's position), but he is a man with substantial experience, and as one of the Lords of an allied force (the Vale), took it upon himself to correct the smiths' oversight.  We do not yet know if he has been given an official position by Jon, the KiTN, but since he was the one who spoke up against the Targs "not to be trusted", in Jon's throne room last week, we must conclude that his word carries substantial weight for all of the current inhabitants of Winterfell.  Perhaps Sansa has created an impromptu "Small Council" of advisers in Jon's absence....again we don't  know this, but it would make sense.  A plus for Sansa's "smarts" if true, but she still had creepy LF along for her walk-about, big mistake.  She needs to keep him away from all of the castle's business at this point.  We'll see how much progress she makes in that regard, before it's time to really pass judgement on her abilities "to rule". 

[Katsullivan]

2 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

We'll see how much progress she makes in that regard, before it's time to really pass judgement on her abilities "to rule". 

I'm sure she'll rule brilliantly. How well that would make sense for the story or how much other characters will suffer to make Sansa look brilliant is what I'm not sure of. And like @anamika pointed out so well, it's not the first time that this Royce was made to look like an idiot for Sansa's sake.

[GrailKing]

19 hours ago, Tikichick said:

That is going to be an enormous gut punch.  I'm starting to wonder if he doesn't find out via a source other than Bran, and Bran is meant to give the news to Sansa and Arya, etc. instead.

I also think, Bran,Sansa and Arya decide to keep it from him and just name him Jon Stark and only they and the readers know the truth.

[Hana Chan]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

Let's not pretend that they have severely dumbed down these people so that Sansa can act the expert. The GENERAL of the Vale army, Yohn Royce, had to say that he wanted to tear down castles that were the first line of defense against the WW if they crossed the wall - only to be corrected by Sansa about how they need those castles. The GENERAL of the Vale army had to be instructed on how to line armors with leather or fur or whatever by a teen girl with no formal armorers training, solving millennia of confusion about how to design armor for cold weather conditions.

When it comes to something like food stores, I can buy Sansa being aware of the importance of having enough food to feed their people for a very extended period and taking steps to stockpile as much as possible before the weather totally turns to shit on them. Because that is the kind of thing that would be part of a lady's education. Women of the noble houses would be expected to manage the household (including food stores) while their husbands were carrying out the military/political duties. It would be part of the basic duties that a wife would be expected to manage for her husband's household. 

But the armor note is irking me because it's been made relatively clear through the whole run of the show that Sansa has never picked up any kind of weapon bigger than a darning needle. She's never had any kind of weapons training (because it wasn't lady-like) and she's pretty much never lifted a hand in her own personal defense. For her to know that armor should be insulated for winter conditions is, to use a modern parlance, way outside her pay scale. I don't mind Sansa showing herself to be capable in the areas where the education and experiences she's had make sense for her to show competence. But this was pandering, dumbing down other characters in order to make her look like the super-competent, super-capable leader.