S07.E02: Stormborn

[BitterApple]

I think a Jon/Dany hookup is beneficial to both in the short term, but not in the long. They each have an immediate need: Dany needs numbers to defeat Cersei, Jon needs the dragons to destroy the WW's. However I agree with earlier comments that a move to KL would make him miserable. Ned was like a fish out of water down there and I think it would be the same for Jon.

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

About Dany's conversation of Varys: 

It was long overdue, so overall I was glad to see it. I understand why it didn't happen the second they met: when he first came to town she was elsewhere, and after that she was busy, but I agree that at this point it was kind of "um... why now?"

All they needed to do is not show Varys on the ship in the season finale. The show had no time to show the conversation at the end of last season. But they needed to show it due to Dany's animosity toward "The Spider."

I don't like the retcon that Varys undermined Robert.  When did that happened??  And how?  Robert was a drunk - not interested in ruling.  But he wasn't cruel - and there was peace.  WHich is priority number one for Varys.  Between Cersei and Littlefinger's fingerprints all over Robert's demise - adding Varys would be overkill.

Is Varys lying about betraying Robert? If so, why?  Is it sloppy writing?  Or is this a set up for a confrontation between the two later down th line? 

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

It seems to be a lifelong obsession not just with Catelyn Stark with all the Stark/Tully women.  Except Arya.

Which is odd and never really explained, as far as I can tell.  Maybe its more in the books, but why the Littlefinger obsession with her and that family of females?  They are not unattractive, but also not the most attractive in the 7 kingdoms.  There doesn't seem to be, as far as I have picked up, anything they have done for him that would make him loyal to the family for any reason.  And he is loyal to no one. 

His obsession with Sansa is because she "looks like her mother." They're both redheads, etc... He was never obsessed with Lyssa. She was just a means to an end.  He's not interested in Arya because Arya doesn't look like Kat or have red hair.

 

His season 1 monologue told us all about his obsession with Kat and why he's going to screw all 7 great houses: Brandon Stark gave him a scar, and he's never forgotten it. All that he is doing is about revenge. He's not loyal to any of these people. Look at what his obsession with Kat did for her. It basically got her, her husband, and two of her children dead, and lost her one of her daughters. He's not about helping Sansa, here.

[paigow]

Always good to see willful witholding of critical information....

Varys: Why would the Lord Of Light favour Jon Snow?

Melisandre: He let the Wildlings through the Wall

[was murdered by his own men and brought back to life by me]

and united the North.....

[ParadoxLost]

27 minutes ago, paigow said:

Always good to see willful witholding of critical information....

Varys: Why would the Lord Of Light favour Jon Snow?

Melisandre: He let the Wildlings through the Wall

[was murdered by his own men and brought back to life by me]

and united the North.....

Actually, I believe Varys said something like ignoring your  Prophecy nonsense, give me a reason that the Lord of Light favors Jon Snow?  Melisandre was just answering exactly the question asked.

[Lemuria]

I don't agree with the posts that thought Jon should have stayed in the North and sent Sansa instead.  Sansa could never convey the urgency or the importance of dropping everything else to deal with the Night King, the other Walkers and the army of the dead--she doesn't think that way herself.  She has never seen the White Walkers, she has never fought them or a wight, she has never watched the Night King raise the dead.  When she has her own doubts about the threat that they present, she would not be the most able advocate for the need to provide the North with dragonglass and dragons themselves.  

I also don't believe that Jon is trivializing how dangerous Cersei can be but he is correct that they do not have to fear an army being sent against them by her.  The only army they have to worry about is already on the march and heading south, not north.  If Sansa fears a lone assassin--well, that is not an unreasonable fear.  However, it is also something that you always need to keep in the back of your mind when playing in the halls of power.  Perhaps the best solution would have been to let Jon protect the North to the best of his ability, and let Sansa protect the King from more solitary threats.

(I hope this ep puts to rest any claims that Jon does not respect or trust Sansa.  He left the North in her hands.  That being said, respecting someone--and their opinions--does not mean always agreeing with them or going along with what they want. )

Quote

Based on what we have seen on the show the WW seem to have some type of weather/cold manipulation.

Didn't Jon tell the Northern lords, in 6.10, that the enemy "brings the storm?"  I expect that includes the ability to freeze waterways, so they can cross, when the seasons have turned in their favor.

A question:  can all of the Walkers raise the dead, or only the Night King?  And if the Night King (or any Walker, if they all have the ability to raise the dead) gets killed, do the wights that Walker (or N.K.) has raised also "die?"

[ImpinAintEasy]

10 hours ago, akrinord said:

But how would Jon/Dany make sense politically? I get it would make sense from her perspective - through marriage she would secure the North as part of her kingdom - but from his? It's not like Dany will just let Jon stay king in an independent North, she will demand that he bends the knee and recognises her as his queen. The North would have to give up its independence and Jon move to King's Landing to be the queen's consort. Which the North would just lie down and take....? Not very likely. Jon/Dany would soon have a rebellion on their hands. Not to mention: does anyone really see Jon living the rest of his life in KL? He's essentially Ned Stark 2.0.

It would be a much smarter move for Jon to either marry a daughter of one of the most influential northern houses - like one of Manderly's daughters for instance - to secure his position as KITN, or a daughter from a house of some other powerful region the North wants to form an alliance with. But as a king who wants to secure a) your/your family's position and b) your countries independence you just don't marry another regent. Then something has to give.

 

Jon's sole reason in life is to protect the North and all of humanity. If marriage and bending the knee helps secure three dragons and a butt load of dragonglass, I think he'd do it. Once the Northern lords see the white walkers and their army, I think they'd be okay with not being independent, as fealty to the iron throne is preferable to death. 

[Isazouzi]

8 hours ago, justawatcher said:

which are some of the exact reasons I think he's going to be the one sitting on the throne when it is all done. C'mon- the man created his own sigil!

 

Littlefinger would be very happy being king of the ashes, I think.

2 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Didn't Jon tell the Northern lords, in 6.10, that the enemy "brings the storm?"  I expect that includes the ability to freeze waterways, so they can cross, when the seasons have turned in their favor.

The Night King brings the storm, and Euron says he's the storm... I hope there's more to it than ominous wording.

[voiceover]

15 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

[Kit] looked good when he was inside in just his leather armor.  I bet that is what he'll wear when he meets Dany.

You have reminded me that that's how I want him dressed for the life size cardboard cutout I'm having installed in my office.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Actually, I believe Varys said something like ignoring your  Prophecy nonsense, give me a reason that the Lord of Light favors Jon Snow?  Melisandre was just answering exactly the question asked.

The useful and definitive answer is: "The Lord of Light let me bring Jon Snow back from the dead".

[DrSpaceman73]

12 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

His obsession with Sansa is because she "looks like her mother." They're both redheads, etc... He was never obsessed with Lyssa. She was just a means to an end.  He's not interested in Arya because Arya doesn't look like Kat or have red hair.

 

His season 1 monologue told us all about his obsession with Kat and why he's going to screw all 7 great houses: Brandon Stark gave him a scar, and he's never forgotten it. All that he is doing is about revenge. He's not loyal to any of these people. Look at what his obsession with Kat did for her. It basically got her, her husband, and two of her children dead, and lost her one of her daughters. He's not about helping Sansa, here.

I agree he is not loyal to any of them, but I think the Stark/Tully female obsession goes beyond revenge.  There is also a few lines in season 4 after he kills Lyssa where he mentions coming to the Vale as a boy and coming in contact with the Tully family. 

And I guess we don't know what Kat looked like when younger but other than being redheads she and Sansa I have never thought resembled each other much.  I am sure she reminds him of her mother. 

Plus even if that is true it brings up the original question of why the obsession with Kat.  It seems deeper to me than decades old just revenge on Brandon Stark. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by DrSpaceman73

[Popples]

12 hours ago, Macbeth said:

All they needed to do is not show Varys on the ship in the season finale. The show had no time to show the conversation at the end of last season. But they needed to show it due to Dany's animosity toward "The Spider."

I don't like the retcon that Varys undermined Robert.  When did that happened??  And how?  Robert was a drunk - not interested in ruling.  But he wasn't cruel - and there was peace.  WHich is priority number one for Varys.  Between Cersei and Littlefinger's fingerprints all over Robert's demise - adding Varys would be overkill.

Is Varys lying about betraying Robert? If so, why?  Is it sloppy writing?  Or is this a set up for a confrontation between the two later down th line? 

Season 1, episode 5 "The Wolf and the Lion". When Arya is chasing cats, and ends up in the dungeons with the dragon skulls, she sees and overhears Varys and Illyrio plotting to bring the seven kingdoms to war. Varys tells Illyrio they need to strike now, but Illyrio says that Drogo won't do anything until his son is born.

[Macbeth]

44 minutes ago, Popples said:

Season 1, episode 5 "The Wolf and the Lion". When Arya is chasing cats, and ends up in the dungeons with the dragon skulls, she sees and overhears Varys and Illyrio plotting to bring the seven kingdoms to war. Varys tells Illyrio they need to strike now, but Illyrio says that Drogo won't do anything until his son is born.

Varys was talking about how the Lannisters botched their murder attempt on Bran.  "The Lion and the Wolf will soon be at each other's throat."  He predicted that there was going to be a war, and he was preparing a back-up plan.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Macbeth

[Lady S.]

10 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

 

Jon's sole reason in life is to protect the North and all of humanity. If marriage and bending the knee helps secure three dragons and a butt load of dragonglass, I think he'd do it. Once the Northern lords see the white walkers and their army, I think they'd be okay with not being independent, as fealty to the iron throne is preferable to death. 

Also relevant that both KitN declarations were made in rebellion against the Lannisters. If they are convinced that Dany is not mad like her father, and in fact that Jon is a Targ himself, the situation would be significantly different. The reason the Starks ever stopped being kings was because of the first Targ conquest, referenced in the first KitN speech ("It was the dragons we bowed to and now the dragons are all dead!" Yeah, think again, buddy.) It makes no sense to be even more stubborn about independence than they were 300 years before when the apocolypse is coming. Jon would be miserable in King's Landing, but his own happiness is not an issue and it's not like anyone in-world or in-fandom can just presume Jon and Dany will both survive all this. If they get together, I'm sure they'll be a tragic ending somehow. 

As far as Littlefinger's redhead obsession goes, I thought it was pretty clear his feelings for Lysa were different from those for her sister. And I do think his youthful crush on Catelyn was genuine, as genuine as Petyr ever could be. He wasn't born a dastardly mastermind, he was a relatively powerless kid growing up at Riverrun who was very close to the Tully sisters, but always preferred the elder. He almost died fighting Brandon the Elder, and as the duel was his own idea, it was probably also his own idea not to yield. He risked his life in a fight he could never win, as if death was preferable to watching his beloved marry another. (And Lysa wasn't married yet either, he could have settled for her from the start if any Tully girl was all he wanted.) That duel is the pretty much the exact opposite of his cold and manipulative game-playing in adulthood, always careful never to gamble with his own skin. There's no cool-blooded genius motivation for the duel that I can see, just wanting to be with the foster sister he had a crush on. It's easy to get distracted by the girl-on-girl practice sex ruining the exposition in that scene, but I think the whole point of unloading his backstory was that he was once just a regular kid and the duel was a turning point which changed his ways of operating. 

Quote

I was her little confidant, her plaything. She could tell me anything, anything at all. She told me about all the horses that she liked, the castle that she wanted to live in and the man that she wanted to marry - a Northerner with a jaw like an anvil. So I challenged him to a duel. I mean, why not? I'd read all the stories. The little hero always beats the big villain in all the stories. In the end, she wouldn't even let him kill me. "He's just a boy," she said. "Please don't hurt him. " So he gave me a nice little scar to remember him by, and off they went. .... Do you know what I learned, losing that duel? I learned that I'll never win, not that way. That's their game, their rules. I'm not going to fight them. I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know. 

(As for why Sansa and not Arya, she has her mother's hair, is the elder daughter like her mother was, and is more ladylike which would be another outward similarity. Besides which, he had to pick one, couldn't very well seduce and marry both at the same time, and Arya was out of his orbit by the end of s1, while Sansa was still around to creep on, was regarded as the prettier sister and was already entering puberty first. The sexposition line about heroes in all the stories makes me think he sees his younger self in Sansa too, not just her mother, and now he's trying to mold Sansa into being like his adult self, her Tully hair and prettier face combined with his cynicism to make the perfect consort for him.) 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Lady S.

[Popples]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Varys was talking about how the Lannisters botched their murder attempt on Bran.  "The Lion and the Wolf will soon be at each other's throat."  He predicted that there was going to be a war, and he was preparing a back-up plan.

They were already planning for a war (the impending arrival of the Dothraki), they just didn't realize it would happen so soon. "'Delay you' say, 'move fast' I reply." Varys wants Illyrio to take advantage of the infighting. You originally asked about Varys undermining Robert, and I think an adviser sitting on a governing council planning a foreign invasion counts.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

As far as Littlefinger's redhead obsession goes, I thought it was pretty clear his feelings for Lysa were different from those for her sister. And I do think his youthful crush on Catelyn was genuine, as genuine as Petyr ever could be. He wasn't born a dastardly mastermind, he was a relatively powerless kid growing up at Riverrun who was very close to the Tully sisters, but always preferred the elder. He almost died fighting Brandon the Elder, and as the duel was his own idea, it was probably also his own idea not to yield. He risked his life in a fight he could never win, as if death was preferable to watching his beloved marry another. (And Lysa wasn't married yet either, he could have settled for her from the start if any Tully girl was all he wanted.) That duel is the pretty much the exact opposite of his cold and manipulative game-playing in adulthood, always careful never to gamble with his own skin. There's no cool-blooded genius motivation for the duel that I can see, just wanting to be with the foster sister he had a crush on. It's easy to get distracted by the girl-on-girl practice sex ruining the exposition in that scene, but I think the whole point of unloading his backstory was that he was once just a regular kid and the duel was a turning point which changed his ways of operating. 

(As for why Sansa and not Arya, she has her mother's hair, is the elder daughter like her mother was, and is more ladylike which would be another outward similarity. Besides which, he had to pick one, couldn't very well seduce and marry both at the same time, and Arya was out of his orbit by the end of s1, while Sansa was still around to creep on, was regarded as the prettier sister and was already entering puberty first. The sexposition line about heroes in all the stories makes me think he sees his younger self in Sansa too, not just her mother, and now he's trying to mold Sansa into being like his adult self, her Tully hair and prettier face combined with his cynicism to make the perfect consort for him.) 

I don't think Littlefinger just had a youthful crush.  He was madly in love with Catelyn to the point that he's never loved anyone else.  He's the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

[Lady S.]

38 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think Littlefinger just had a youthful crush.  He was madly in love with Catelyn to the point that he's never loved anyone else.  He's the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

Oh, I agree it was more than a crush, but people seem to have trouble accepting that he had any human feelings for her at all. (Though it may have always been an unhealthy form of love. Most of us have dealt with unrequited love without futilely risking our lives or developing vengeful plans of world domination.) Though I think the Snape comparison is a bit unfair, as Severus did some good things in the name of love even while retaining old grudges and a nasty personality.

[FnkyChkn34]

45 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Oh, I agree it was more than a crush, but people seem to have trouble accepting that he had any human feelings for her at all. (Though it may have always been an unhealthy form of love. Most of us have dealt with unrequited love without futilely risking our lives or developing vengeful plans of world domination.) Though I think the Snape comparison is a bit unfair, as Severus did some good things in the name of love even while retaining old grudges and a nasty personality.

Bringing the Vale's army and saving Jon and Sansa in the Battle of the Bastards wasn't good?  I don't think Littlefinger is all evil.  He's complex.

[Lady S.]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

Bringing the Vale's army and saving Jon and Sansa in the Battle of the Bastards wasn't good?  I don't think Littlefinger is all evil.  He's complex.

He did that to get in Sansa's good graces again after leaving her with the Boltons. I don't believe he ever wanted to help Jon and he clearly feels he is owed a debt for helping Sansa. 

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, Popples said:

They were already planning for a war (the impending arrival of the Dothraki), they just didn't realize it would happen so soon. "'Delay you' say, 'move fast' I reply." Varys wants Illyrio to take advantage of the infighting. You originally asked about Varys undermining Robert, and I think an adviser sitting on a governing council planning a foreign invasion counts.

We don't have to agree. Varys was looking at the entire chessboard - seeing several moves ahead.  .Noting that "this Hand is not like the last."  Knowing that both Hands were looking into the possible illegitimacy of the KIng's heirs.  A deadly subject that proved to be, as it would be.  THe question that really mattered did Varys really know about Viserys?  Illyrios wouldn't have good news on that point. However Joffrey was so bad, even Tywin was relieved with his murder.

[paigow]

12 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

Littlefinger would be very happy being king of the ashes, I think.

 

That is what Varys told Oleanna at some point before the Purple Wedding.....

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 7/23/2017 at 11:42 PM, scrb said:

Maybe even Bran will make it down for the Stark family reunion.

They could get matching family reunion t shirts!

 

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Oh, I agree it was more than a crush, but people seem to have trouble accepting that he had any human feelings for her at all. (Though it may have always been an unhealthy form of love. Most of us have dealt with unrequited love without futilely risking our lives or developing vengeful plans of world domination.) Though I think the Snape comparison is a bit unfair, as Severus did some good things in the name of love even while retaining old grudges and a nasty personality.

I've never had any doubt that his feelings for Cat were real. It's the interest in Sansa that veers into creepdom, when it comes to women. imo

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

He did that to get in Sansa's good graces again after leaving her with the Boltons. I don't believe he ever wanted to help Jon and he clearly feels he is owed a debt for helping Sansa. 

I think it goes beyond wanting to be in Sansa's good graces.

The manner in which he gave an assist was more likely to result in Jon's death than his victory.  LF was hoping that Jon would die on the battlefield, the Vale would come to the rescue, Sansa would become QITN ,and LF would eventually marry her.

I think he's still angling for that.  That is why he was so happy about Jon is going to Dragonstone and leaving Sansa in charge.  It gives him space to maneuver Sansa and maybe someone will roast Jon alive for him or maybe jon will bend the knee and lose support of the Northern lords in favor of Sansa.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poor Hotpie! He was so excited to see Arya again but her reaction to seeing him was (1) gimme dem pies (2) are you lying about my brother? (3) kthxbye.

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Poor Hotpie! He was so excited to see Arya again but her reaction to seeing him was (1) gimme dem pies (2) are you lying about my brother? (3) kthxbye.

Exposition without emotional attachment....

[angel1008]

Theon bailing was part PTSD and part saving his own ass and his sisters, ultimately.   After what Ramsay did to him, you cannot get over it that easily.

Dany is getting a little TOO smug.  She is NOT the queen YET, so Jon does not have to bow down to her.  Cannot wait until they find out that HE is the rightful heir to the throne, since he is her uncles son.

Of course that was Nymeria!  Standard wolves are nowhere near that size, and plus, Arya would have been dinner if it were not!

I do believe that Dany is going to lose at least one dragon this season.  At this point she is way too powerful in her assets.  Losing one of her "children" would either knock her down a peg or two and bring her back to earth, OR drive her mad like her father, thus culminating in her demise.

Great episode though.

[scrb]

2 hours ago, angel1008 said:

Dany is getting a little TOO smug.  She is NOT the queen YET, so Jon does not have to bow down to her.  Cannot wait until they find out that HE is the rightful heir to the throne, since he is her uncles son.

 

I think all the claimants to the throne do that.  They have to assert their legitimacy or people will think they're not serious.

Cersei also demanded it and IIRC, the Lannisters wanted Ned to bend the knee to Joffrey.

[BitterApple]

I've been reading various discussions across social media. A lot of people are theorizing that there's a mole in Dany's camp (most are saying Olenna), who tipped Euron off to Dany's location. I guess it would be one way to fill the plot hole of how Euron stumbled across Yara in the dead of night, but I'm kind of torn.

In one way it makes sense because Dany would be pissed and might decide to unleash the dragons, but in another it doesn't because why would Olenna destroy resources if her ultimate goal is to see Cersei dead. Thoughts? 

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I've been reading various discussions across social media. A lot of people are theorizing that there's a mole in Dany's camp (most are saying Olenna), who tipped Euron off to Dany's location. I guess it would be one way to fill the plot hole of how Euron stumbled across Yara in the dead of night, but I'm kind of torn.

In one way it makes sense because Dany would be pissed and might decide to unleash the dragons, but in another it doesn't because why would Olenna destroy resources if her ultimate goal is to see Cersei dead. Thoughts? 

I've heard the mole could have been one of the Iron Islands' men traveling with Yara who still had a connection to Euron.  But it's not like they can just text each other, so I don't know.

[CletusMusashi]

Do the boats they stole have GPS?

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I've been reading various discussions across social media. A lot of people are theorizing that there's a mole in Dany's camp (most are saying Olenna), who tipped Euron off to Dany's location. I guess it would be one way to fill the plot hole of how Euron stumbled across Yara in the dead of night, but I'm kind of torn.

In one way it makes sense because Dany would be pissed and might decide to unleash the dragons, but in another it doesn't because why would Olenna destroy resources if her ultimate goal is to see Cersei dead. Thoughts? 

Yara traveled in the middle of the night with THAT MUCH LIGHT.  Any experienced sailor hiding anywhere near Dragonstone would spot that convoy and ambush it :D

 

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Exposition without emotional attachment....

She does not have Jaquen Hgar good looks to distract 1/2 of the GoT viewerships from that fact :P

[nachomama]

Ok Jon cannot marry Dany. Yes, I know Targaryan's married brother and sister and duh, "Mad King". Cersei and Jaime are all up in the baby daddy/uncle bidness and duh, evil. So someone explain to me, is Jon Dany's twin?? (no Dany was wife's baby = legit heir, mommy & daddy were brother and sister? and Jon's mom was Ned's sister (promised to Robert) or Dany was x years old and Jon was the newborn that Ned snatched back. How old was Vasyrus (or whatever evil brother's name was?)

[DrSpaceman73]

In regard to Arya and how she responded to Hotpie, I don't think it had anything to do with Hotpie.  She acted just like The Hound did in earlier seasons when they were guests in the house of the farmer and hid daughter.  OK, not JUST like him, she didn't steal his silver, but it was a perfect reflection of how she saw the Hound act, right down to the exact words "you got any ale".  Mimicking what she learned of the killer she followed for so long

[ChipBach]

7 hours ago, angel1008 said:

Dany is getting a little TOO smug.  She is NOT the queen YET, so Jon does not have to bow down to her.  Cannot wait until they find out that HE is the rightful heir to the throne, since he is her uncles son.

Yabut, she sure sounded more like a queen of servants than a leader of free people...

[lucindabelle]

On 7/24/2017 at 8:49 PM, Absurda said:

 

Dany can't have an independent north floating about. An independent Iron Islands is no big deal, but the North is far larger, more powerful and more consequential. They would always be a threat to her reign and their king a potential rival for the throne.

 

Why not? Why can't there be separate, independent nations? I mean she knows this when it comes to other countries. Why can't the North be its own thing, and be an ally and neighbor?

 

On 7/24/2017 at 9:35 PM, Philbert said:

Having watched that scene three times now, I am beginning to think that there was more than a little tactical calculation in that 'cowardice.' At that point, Theon and Yara were fucked. At least now, he's got a chance to follow and get her back. He might very well be following the old adage, "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

Theon is due for one glorious moment before he dies in this show-I suspect it will come at Euron's expense.

This.

On 7/25/2017 at 2:00 AM, ImpinAintEasy said:

I'm fine with Jon and Dany. It makes for the most obvious political match. I think there is a resistance to having the two main characters get together because maybe It would be too cliche or obvious. Or people may simply not like one of the two(usually Dany). I guess I just don't see what the problem is. But I'm also not one of those people who believes GRRM set out to simply bust every trope known to fantasy and avoid things just because they were too obvious. He's more likely to do the obvious(Jon/Dany pairing) and have it end tragically. 

WHY must it end tragically? At this point THAT'S WHAT'S EXPECTED. You know what would be fucking surprising? A happy ending.

 

On 7/25/2017 at 2:09 PM, paigow said:

HotPie: A man was here yesterday...liked my crust so much, he carved a star into the table...

Arya: Was he a knight?

HotPie: No...Lord Macheline 

HAH!

 

But that's Ser Michiline.

 

Also, what was odd was how completely nonchalant Arya was to see him, as if she saw him every day. That's what made that so very weird.

[BitterApple]

I agree it was strange how Arya was so "meh, whatever" upon reconnecting with a friend she hadn't seen in years. I understand they wanted to show her mimicking the Hound's mannerisms, but it didn't jive with how chummy she was with the Lannister soldiers the week before. It's like her character is all over the place.

[DigitalCount]

46 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Ok Jon cannot marry Dany. Yes, I know Targaryan's married brother and sister and duh, "Mad King". Cersei and Jaime are all up in the baby daddy/uncle bidness and duh, evil. So someone explain to me, is Jon Dany's twin?? (no Dany was wife's baby = legit heir, mommy & daddy were brother and sister? and Jon's mom was Ned's sister (promised to Robert) or Dany was x years old and Jon was the newborn that Ned snatched back. How old was Vasyrus (or whatever evil brother's name was?)

The most likely answer is that Jon is Dany's nephew. Her eldest brother, Rhaegar, is the one who snatched up Ned's sister, Lyanna--who we now know to be Jon's mother. Rhaegar and Dany's parents are the ones who were also siblings. So generationally, we have Aerys, the Mad King, then Rhaegar and Dany, then Jon.

Viserys was old enough that he probably actually remembered living in Westeros, unlike Dany. So I'd put him around a few years older than her.

[Star Aristille]

Um . . . did I miss something?  Granted, I'm late to the party (only vaguely watched seasons four and five as background noise while my now-ex-boyfriend watched them faithfully and didn't really watch faithfully till season six), but Grey Worm and Missandei have feelings for each other?  So much focus was on Dany and Tyrion's story, so I never felt like I'd learned much about either of them.

On another note, aren't Jon and Davos heading for Dany just next week?  If Melissandre is still there when they arrive, Davos is going to be pissed.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Star Aristille said:

 If Melissandre is still there when they arrive, Davos is going to be pissed.

However, she is protected now...Jon told her that only returning to the North would be punishable by death...

[RedHawk]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why not? Why can't there be separate, independent nations? I mean she knows this when it comes to other countries. Why can't the North be its own thing, and be an ally and neighbor?

Kinda like Scotland and Wales, eh?

[Star Aristille]

52 minutes ago, paigow said:

However, she is protected now...Jon told her that only returning to the North would be punishable by death...

Somehow, I don't think Davos would stick to that.  He's wanted her blood since he found out about Shireen.

[ImpinAintEasy]

6 hours ago, nachomama said:

Ok Jon cannot marry Dany. Yes, I know Targaryan's married brother and sister and duh, "Mad King". Cersei and Jaime are all up in the baby daddy/uncle bidness and duh, evil. So someone explain to me, is Jon Dany's twin?? (no Dany was wife's baby = legit heir, mommy & daddy were brother and sister? and Jon's mom was Ned's sister (promised to Robert) or Dany was x years old and Jon was the newborn that Ned snatched back. How old was Vasyrus (or whatever evil brother's name was?)

 

Jon's father was Dany's eldest brother. So Jon is her nephew. They are the same age. Viserys was 5-7 years older than Dany. As far as who would be the legit Targaryen heir, it would depend on whether Rhaegar married Lyanna or had Jon legitimized. If Jon was legitimate, he'd be the rightful heir, as he is the son of the crowned prince. Why would you think this would prevent any possible marriage between the two?

Edited July 28, 2017 by ImpinAintEasy

[DarkRaichu]

Just had a thought.  Tywin told Cersei that the Lannisters' gold mines are empty.  Why would Jamie spare precious resources defending barren Casterly Rock?  I think the Unsullied would easily take over CR but it would be a hollow victory (literally) as anything valuable has already been sold to purchase food for Cersei's army and to produce Qyburn's ballistas.  If anything, it would weaken Dany as she has to split her forces to defend 2 locations...  

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Just had a thought.  Tywin told Cersei that the Lannisters' gold mines are empty.  Why would Jamie spare precious resources defending barren Casterly Rock?  I think the Unsullied would easily take over CR but it would be a hollow victory (literally) as anything valuable has already been sold to purchase food for Cersei's army and to produce Qyburn's ballistas.  If anything, it would weaken Dany as she has to split her forces to defend 2 locations...  

Despite the gold, Casterly Rock is their ancestral home - why wouldn't Jamie want to defend it? It's not just a rock, it's a city with people in it.

[Macbeth]

10 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Just had a thought.  Tywin told Cersei that the Lannisters' gold mines are empty.  

More egg on Tyrion's face that he didn't know his own family is bankrupt.  

[FnkyChkn34]

40 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

More egg on Tyrion's face that he didn't know his own family is bankrupt.  

I thought he knew that.  When he was Joffrey's Hand, he knew there was no money anywhere.  When did he say the Lannisters still had money?  

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Despite the gold, Casterly Rock is their ancestral home - why wouldn't Jamie want to defend it? It's not just a rock, it's a city with people in it.

He may want to but I do not think he can.  He lacks troops and barely has any ally.  Strategically, defending a depleted resource point like CR is a losing proposition.  If he wins he loses some of his troops and has to maintain a barren location.  If he loses, most of his troops are gone.  He needs to use his troops (basically Lannister army) to gain something more valuable

Spoiler

(like Highgarden, the food source of the 7 kingdoms)

 

Tywin certainly would have done so. 

We shall see if Jaime can figure this out since neither Tywin or uncle Kevan is here to give counsel

Edited July 28, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Clanstarling]

18 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

He may want to but I do not think he can.  He lacks troops and barely has any ally.  Strategically, defending a depleted resource point like CR is a losing proposition.  If he wins he loses some of his troops and has to maintain a barren location.  If he loses, most of his troops are gone.  He needs to use his troops (basically Lannister army) to gain something more valuable

  Hide contents

(like Highgarden, the food source of the 7 kingdoms)

 

Tywin certainly would have done so. 

We shall see if Jaime can figure this out since neither Tywin or uncle Kevan is here to give counsel

All true - but you're talking objective tactics, rather than emotional connection. People have fought and died over worthless bits of land that belonged to them throughout history. Tywin was a cold-assed bastard, but Jaimie, not so much (despite all of the things he's done - he has a soft heart for family - and Casterly Rock and its inhabitants fall in that realm).

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

he has a soft heart for family - and Casterly Rock and its inhabitants fall in that realm).

And not a whole lot of family left. What's he got, his evil sister Cersei and his imp brother Tyrion, who is trying to take down his evil sister Cersei. All his children are dead. His father is dead. I'm sure there is some extended family somewhere but the core of his family is gone. All he's got left as a Lannister is Casterly Rock. And how humiliating if you lose your ancestral home. It would undermine Cersei's reign. "She can't even hold on to her family home, how is she going to protect us?" people will begin talking. No, it will not be a good loss for the Lannisters if Dany gets takes home. And further isolates Kings Landing. Didn't she mention surrounding them on all sides? This is part of that.