S07.E02: Stormborn

[Blonde Gator]

Since there's been some discussion about Tyrion's note, this just posted on the official GOT site.  The full text of Tyrion's note to Jon.  Note that he "invited" Jon to Dragonstone, which contrasts to Cersei's note last week, "commanding the bastard and rebel" to come to KL and bend the knee.  There are also several other official pictures of the written word in this Episode, including Jorah's note to the Khaleesi, Sam's note to Jon, and some of the instructions for the greyscale precedure.  Enjoy.

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/look-over-the-letters-and-pages-featured-in-stormborn

I've learned to check this page, as they update it daily, not just on the day the episode airs.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Blonde Gator
typo

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

At the end of the day, it took... what, 3 minutes?  It was nice to see a scene that isn't all doom, gloom, scheming, military strategy, epic battles, or someone dying.  It was also nice to see Grey Worm's butt.  Just sayin'.

And I wish they'd used those three minutes elsewhere.  Or maybe thrown in some exposition? ;-)  But I do understand the appeal of a nice butt.

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Then you can't complain if the others got their wish ; )

Lust works both ways. : )

I never said I wasn't hypocritical, lol.

Edited July 26, 2017 by proserpina65

[stillshimpy]

On 7/24/2017 at 4:46 PM, Advance35 said:

This is the impression I was under.  The Vale is interested in the sense that Their Lord's cousin is involved.  Jon doesn't matter, hence why Lord Royce wasn't interested in getting involved in the reclamation of Winterfell, until LF convinced Robin to help his cousin.  The Vale is a VALUABLE (hence why they are always allowed to attend meetings in Winterfell's Great Hall) Northern Ally for the moment but if they felt it was in their interest to sever ties, I don't doubt for a moment they would.

Neither the Vale nor the North are fond of Targaryens, if Jon surrendere the North to Dany and then it comes out that he is in fact a Targaryen himself, one could imagine the North and The Vale feeling like they had been hoodwinked.  Depending who's left standing when all this is over, Dany better pray she still has dragons at the end of all this.  Olenna was telling the truth when she said "Peace never last."

And Dany is NO Margaery, she doesn't have the guile, intellect or creativity to hold the Throne without her dragons.
 

Yeppers. If Jon surrenders to Dany and it's in Dany's political interest to marry a daughter of the North to another high ranking Noble in a different kingdom, Sansa would have to pack her bags.  It would not be up to Jon.   And based on personalities,  I do think Dany will have the upper hand in her relationship with Jon so I don't think he would stand in the way if she told him how it was going to be.

One of the reasons Sansa, I would expect her to be very Anti-swearing allegiance to the Throne.  She's been in that position before.  I think Sansa's developed a notable resentment for people she feels control her or are trying too.  The writers are fast tracking some things and I am under the impression that Dany and Jon's stories are the only ones that REALLY matter to them BUT true to the character as designed, Sansa would never be Pro-Surrendering the Norths independence.

OT kind of, but when we saw the new Dickon Tarly, I thought, if only he and Sansa could meet.  Assuming House Tarly somehow ends up as Wardens of The Reach, I could actually get my own personal HEA of Sansa as Lady of Highgarden. (Sad Face).  And he's tall.

I disagree that Maegery played any kind of successful game.   It was her "I'll plot as a form of strategy" that played a part in her family's downfall.  Not that it was her fault, it was simply that her strategies (on the show, book Marg is a slightly different gig) didn't exactly yield great results for the longterm plans of that house.  All the plotting and scheming they got up to ended with Highgarden being left without an heir (in the show).  

On 7/24/2017 at 6:58 PM, Kathemy said:

I should've added the term "sovereign" to cut out any attempts at those technicalities...

But I'll give you a better one if we're to play the game. Hitler's invasion of Austria. Tho, if we're to be technical, we might call that an "annexation." I'm pretty sure that came with a lot less suffering for the local population than the allied liberation of France.

 

If we're going to talk about sovereign/established forces there are examples of that in more recent history than WWII and plenty besides that.  Not that it lasted for the people involved but the people Iraq initially greeted the U.S. forces as liberators.  History is sprinkled with other examples of "well, it actually depends on how much the sovereign state sucks" and Cersei's talking about closing the gates in response to not having enough food. 

So the region is already horribly divided and the people of the 7 Kingdoms have been at War for years as it is, essentially anyone that promises to suck at least a little less than "Hey, they've been letting us starve with no regard for our welfare" and all of Westeros has been at war for years.  Under those conditions, the actual people, vs. the ruling families of an area that always have it better, are going to welcome the concept of peace and the promise of a return to stuff like "Fewer of our husbands, brothers, wives, mothers, sisters, dogs, fucking plants man, thanks for burning the Riverlands, Lannisters have all been dying and suffering for years."  Loyalty among commoners -- the people who face the opposing forces and greet them (meaning are present when they roll up on the darned place) as opposed to actively fight them is often a welcome thing.  

That's not to say that anyone would bring out a band and burst into ecstatic song but a suffering population, the extent to which that population is suffering, has determined the reception even when we're talking about the existing/sovereign ruling force.   Plus,  when the current Queen only holds the Throne by having blown up her enemies with no regard to how many civilians she took out, well, I don't think anyone would shed a bitter tear upon her removal as much as they'd be more inclined to say "Yippee!" if the invading force dials down the misery they are currently experiencing.  

Have rules around the way an invading force behaves also has a big impact and I guess one nice thing about an army of Eunuchs is that at least that takes the "rape" out of the pillaging prospects.    I just don't think that there's any established monarch that would have any existing loyalty left to them except for the ones that have made life better, or treated their people fairly.   Cersei, first of her name, was already known as Cersei, who had babies slaughtered and whose fitness to rule is already in question and was before she started blowing people up.   Varys had it right when he talked about serving the people and he was saying those things to Dany in the same episode where Cersei is essentially declaring, "I'm aware that we have no food, I thought I'd just lock 'em all in together as a problem solving technique" that's not low regard for the welfare of subjects, that's active dismissal of the worth of their lives.   So conditions are set throughout the Seven for any invading army to be eyed with "Huh, you at least suck a lot less, seeing as you've neither raped me, burned me alive, sacked my home...if you have snacks, hail, hail!" 

Edited July 26, 2017 by stillshimpy

[GrailKing]

50 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

And I wish they'd used those three minutes elsewhere.  Or maybe thrown in some exposition? ;-)  But I do understand the appeal of a nice butt.

I never said I wasn't hypocritical, lol.

I'm not saying you are either. : )

[Advance35]

Re: Olenna and her Bannerman, I think she's simply off her game considering everything that's happened.  I think observing and keeping track of who is keeping company with whom is something Olenna would be doing on the regular, if her house hadn't been wiped out. Now she doesn't seem to be paying attention to nuances she usually would.  And Lord Tarly may not want to play Russian Roulette with the line of succession/future of the reach.  Olenna isn't thinking of the future of Highgarden and maybe a lot of the Reach Lord's have picked up on that.  As well as the fact that she's an elderly WOMAN alone in the world.

I thought Olenna's shift away from scheming and towards more direct violence was very telling of her state of mind.  Tyrion raised valid PR points that pre-Great Sept Olenna would have picked up on.  She certainly trained Margaery to recognize and make use of optics.  Margaery was an expert at "attract more  flies with honey", I truly believe she was trained to advance  and wage courtly combat in that fashion with Olenna as her instructor.  But Olenna at present is advocating the use of full force, kill Cersei and kill anyone who stands in the way.  "Make them fear you" is a very Cersei like viewpoint.  "Nobles and Commoners, their all just children." IMO this is a VERY different woman compared to who she was when we first met her.

Re: Margaery, I do think she was the best player outside of her Grandmother (who know longer cares about the game). Crowned Queen 3 times, gained significant influence over 3 Kings, without outside help, got herself released from imprisonment by a religious zealot and was clearly in on a subtle plan to seal Cersei's fate (her alliance with the HS).  She never dreamed how far Cersei would go but who did?  Though I notice she caught on even before Cersei's own uncle.  My point is the remaining would-be, female players, Dany, Ellaria, Sansa, Sand Snakes, Yara are all Checkers to Margaery's Chess Player.

[stillshimpy]

On 7/25/2017 at 11:21 AM, Francie said:

Brienne. Sam. Gilly. Davos. Jon. Dolorous Edd.

 

And if you take away the incest and Bran tossing, okay and one cousin killing, I'd say Jaime.  I think we're in for a twist or two with him.  Keep an eye on him is all I'm saying. 

Well, strictly talking about Show Jaime, we also have "Kill his men" which was not exactly the most honorable moment for the character.  I have since read book Jaime and now understand why he has so many fans but I was baffled for years that anyone liked him since on the show until he jumped into a bear pit, he really didn't do anything other than be sort of dishonorable at every turn.  That "sort of" is an understatement.   Including being in the Kingsguard without actually guarding the King from harm.    Just going by the show, Jaime is the guy who stabbed Jory in the eye to taunt Ned.  He's due for some redemptive action, so I agree, keep an eye on him but he's been pretty far from good thus far (again, Show, not book character). 

Pardon the editing, I'm losing text after every first paragraph, whenever I hit return.  No clue why only way to get around it is posting and editing in more material.  I'm sure it's a flaw on my system but I'm sure it has to be annoying, and I'm sorry. 

All of that to say this:  In the crypt scene I was so focused on the idea that LF  -- who in the show seems to know a lot about Lyanna and Rhaegar -- was going to start hinting to Jon who he actually is to keep him from meeting with Dany.   So I was willing to handwave the Suddenly Statue of it all because I thought that there was going to be genetic backstory hinting, right there in front of Ned's stone face and that LF was trying to undermine Jon by shaking his faith in Ned right there.   

Instead, since Jon decided that more slamming, less talking was a good plan with LF (and he's not wrong in almost all instances), I wondered if LF isn't going to tell freaking Sansa almost as soon as Jon is out of sight.  "He's not your brother, do you really think you father was ever untrue to your mother.  Think about it..." etc.   I sort of wonder if the next person we see communing with Dead Ned in an hour of need won't also be Sansa interrupted by LF to basically do the same thing.  Shake the Starks up and try and rattle Sansa's faith in Jon.   Kind of seems like the thing he'd want to do and for a couple of seasons LF has been the "Ask me about what I know about Lyanna Stark..."  because the look he gave Sansa when she supplied the Stark version of history to him was not one I'd describe as confirming its accuracy, even to Sansa so he already laid groundwork there. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Tikichick]

25 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Re: Olenna and her Bannerman, I think she's simply off her game considering everything that's happened.  I think observing and keeping track of who is keeping company with whom is something Olenna would be doing on the regular, if her house hadn't been wiped out. Now she doesn't seem to be paying attention to nuances she usually would.  And Lord Tarly may not want to play Russian Roulette with the line of succession/future of the reach.  Olenna isn't thinking of the future of Highgarden and maybe a lot of the Reach Lord's have picked up on that.  As well as the fact that she's an elderly WOMAN alone in the world.

I thought Olenna's shift away from scheming and towards more direct violence was very telling of her state of mind.  Tyrion raised valid PR points that pre-Great Sept Olenna would have picked up on.  She certainly trained Margaery to recognize and make use of optics.  Margaery was an expert at "attract more  flies with honey", I truly believe she was trained to advance  and wage courtly combat in that fashion with Olenna as her instructor.  But Olenna at present is advocating the use of full force, kill Cersei and kill anyone who stands in the way.  "Make them fear you" is a very Cersei like viewpoint.  "Nobles and Commoners, their all just children." IMO this is a VERY different woman compared to who she was when we first met her.

Re: Margaery, I do think she was the best player outside of her Grandmother (who know longer cares about the game). Crowned Queen 3 times, gained significant influence over 3 Kings, without outside help, got herself released from imprisonment by a religious zealot and was clearly in on a subtle plan to seal Cersei's fate (her alliance with the HS).  She never dreamed how far Cersei would go but who did?  Though I notice she caught on even before Cersei's own uncle.  My point is the remaining would-be, female players, Dany, Ellaria, Sansa, Sand Snakes, Yara are all Checkers to Margaery's Chess Player.

I think we have to remember that for Olenna, along with the jolt it must be to realize that the future she planned were all wiped out in the Sept -- most particularly Margery, which was absolutely what Olenna saw as her legacy.  It also cannot go unnoticed that Olenna sees that Margery's excellent instincts for the optics as strategy still left her as nothing more than ashes in the end.  Olenna clearly and understandably feels that now is not the time for a strategy of optics.

Not commenting on the correctness of her viewpoints, merely fleshing out what they are and why she might see the situation as such.

[stillshimpy]

50 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I thought Olenna's shift away from scheming and towards more direct violence was very telling of her state of mind.

I enjoy Lady Olenna (on the show, the character in the books does nothing for me) but I thought part of it was also that she simply isn't as invested, as the only thing she can now hope for is that Highgarden will be the sole power to survive the coming winter as was referenced by Jaime.   That would also explain why she's moved to violence, she has no one left to scheme for and every reason to believe that someone will move on her house as soon as they can, as she has no heirs, Winter has been announced by the Citadel and she can expect to have a bunch of people going after Highgarden's resources and she's out of bargaining chips in the form of heirs, appointments or marriages. 

By the way, one nice thing (?!? okay, nice might not be the best word) about the extreme gross-out scenes is that it's kind of easy to figure out what's going to happen in time to look away.  My husband and I were having a nice chat as we shielded our eyes and discussed the likely use for what appeared to be pliers.   It was an awfully long scene with no information shared which kind of baffled me.   It really did just seem to exist to make the audience gag.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Tikichick]

39 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I enjoy Lady Olenna (on the show, the character in the books does nothing for me) but I thought part of it was also that she simply isn't as invested, as the only thing she can now hope for is that Highgarden will be the sole power to survive the coming winter as was referenced by Jaime.   That would also explain why she's moved to violence, she has no one left to scheme for and every reason to believe that someone will move on her house as soon as they can, as she has no heirs, Winter has been announced by the Citadel and she can expect to have a bunch of people going after Highgarden's resources and she's out of bargaining chips in the form of heirs, appointments or marriages. 

By the way, one nice thing (?!? okay, nice might not be the best word) about the extreme gross-out scenes is that it's kind of easy to figure out what's going to happen in time to look away.  My husband and I were having a nice chat as we shielded our eyes and discussed the likely use for what appeared to be pliers.   It was an awfully long scene with no information shared which kind of baffled me.   It really did just seem to exist to make the audience gag.  

I think you've hit upon another reason some of the storylines have been diverted in different directions for the show -- the actors bring a new dimension that make audience and producers latch onto characters who weren't such huge standouts or tremendously popular on the page.

Show Tywin benefited from this IMO.  I honestly wonder about Show Cersei to a certain extent as well. 

Ironically I think the producers were probably quite disappointed there was no real possibility of keeping Oberyn on the show longer, but I'm sure if they could have, they would have altered the story to keep him onscreen as long as possible.

[buttercupia]

ok, i have a poser for y'all. 

how did sam know jon was at winterfell and not at the wall? how did he know to send his raven there? has someone emailed sam the recent developments vis-a-vis jon's death and resurrection, the battle o'bastards etc, or did dolorous edd somehow forward sam's message without telling jon and sansa about bran being hello alive and safe at castle black, if not on their way to winterfell toot suite?

this show, man.

[Chris24601]

On 7/25/2017 at 0:50 PM, screamin said:

I fanwanked it that a devoted sculptor started work as soon as he heard about Ned's death, and worked on it ever since (with necessary interruptions for homestead burnings and whatnot) because he just loved Ned as his lord THAT much, and had faith that his bones would be brought home eventually, or if not, at least he should have a proper memorial. Farfetched, but possible.

I have an even easier explanation for the statue. Ned has known since the day he returned home from Robert's Rebellion that one day his bones would be interred in the crypts. So at some point in the last dozen years or so he sat still long enough for a sculptor to get detailed sketches of him (else how would they get it so accurate) and the statue has probably been complete and just sitting in storage in the crypts for years now. When his bones arrived (before Theon came with the Ironborn) they interred his bones in the alcove that's been set aside for the next Lord of Winterfell and moved the already completed statue into place.

 

On 7/25/2017 at 1:50 PM, Francie said:

I was struck, watching Daenerys' war counsel, that they had a woman who had committed regicide, a man who had committed patricide and strangled his own former "girlfriend," a woman who had killed a 15-year-old girl all because she didn't like her last name  (and overthrew a country and murdered her lover's brother),  a man responsible for hiring the assassin of another young lady, a woman who plundered the coastline of a neighboring kingdom, and a man who had killed two young boys so that he could pose as a big, tough guy. 

And these are supposed to be the heroes? 

My hunch is they're actually NOT supposed to be the heroes. Now that we're well past the parts GRRM has written the dialogue in the show has become much more pointed and unsubtle; its all for the specific purpose of resolving dangling plot bits (the Hound and the farmer/daughter last episode, Hot Pie this episode) or setting up future plot points and Dany's scenes were loaded with the latter.

Varys is having to explain his loyalty to the people over Daenerys now because clearly there will be a point coming up where Dany will go too far and Varys will have to either confront her or go behind her back and either way I suspect he'll end up being burned for his troubles. Olenna specifically comparing people to sheep while telling Dany she is and needs to be a dragon is quite pointed given all the times we've seen sheep slaughtered and burnt and torn apart by her dragons. Even losing her Dornish and Ironborn allies this episode serves the plot purpose of putting Dany in a position where the only way for her to take the Iron Throne will be to unleash the dragons and Dothraki (at which point atrocities are assured).

Likewise, Dany taking it as a given that she is the "Princess Who Was Promised" (complete with awkward dialogue) when Mel was quite clear that the only thing certain was that Dany would have a role to play and then demanding that the "good man" Jon Snow (whom the audience knows is preparing to fight the REAL enemy) be made to bend the knee to her so she can use his armies for her conquests is, I think, deliberately intended to make the audience feel ill-at-ease with her (which is even more pointed in the books so I think this is a case of the show needing to get back more in line with the books for the ending after propping up Dany since practically the beginning than anything else).

Heck, even the audience knowing Jon's pedigree and that Dany's his aunt I think is meant to use the distaste for incest that the general audience holds in order to make any romantic elements between them squickier. It doesn't matter that Targs have been doing it, its still one of the few big taboos left in Western culture. My hunch is any warm feelings between Jon and Dany now will be specifically to serve as counterpoint when they end up as enemies down the line.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, arjumand said:

I can't see where I contradicted any of this. 

And neither Jon, nor Davos, nor Sansa caught that Dany expects him to bend the knee - if they did, they didn't mention it, whether it was during the reading of the letter, nor when he told them he was going.  Even when Sansa says that it must be a trap, he then still says that Tyrion can be trusted - and he can, except when Jon reaches Dragonstone, Tyrion will be slightly in disfavour (maybe?).

 

Sansa does catch it, as she makes explicitly clear during the great hall scene: "she [Dany] is here to reclaim the iron throne and the seven kingdoms. The north is one of those seven kingdoms. This isn't an invitation, it's a trap".

Sansa clearly understands that the North is part of the seven kingdoms, and that the Targaryens will want to keep it that way.

 

 

I liked the scenes between Sansa and Jon, this episode. Both sides had very good reasons to argue their case and both did a convincing job. I liked it that Sansa showed genuine fear for what would happen if Jon went to Dragonstone. Contrary to the way some seem to be reading it, she didn't lose her misgivings as soon as Jon appointed her as leader in his absence. When Jon actually left, she was clearly still distraught, not happy that Jon was leaving (possibly to never return) and leaving the place in her hands. Which in turn shows that she did accept him fully as king.

 

As to why Sansa was so against Jon going himself, I see some elements:

-she correctly understands that Dany wants him to bend the knee, as the north is part of her kingdom. Since Tyrion did not write that in his letter, she knew he wasn't entirely sincere. She also seems to understand that northern independence would be over, once more. And she may be thinking about potential consequences for herself, too, as others have suggested in this thread. A foreign monarch could potentially demand a say in marriages of the great houses, as I think was known to happen after Aegon's conquest, too.

-she knows there is a chance Jon will be murdered. She doesn't know Dany, who may be as mad as her father (from Sansa's POV). Or Jon may refuse to kneel to her, and Dany could react the wrong way (rather than accept a temporary alliance or at least let him leave before any hostilities would take place). She would be concerned for yet another family member going south to die

-she loses her best protector. She may say that nobody can protect anybody, but her body language suggests that Jon was definitely seen as a protector anyway.

 

The confrontation between Varys and Dany was fine, but it highlights that Varys has been hurt by the removal of (f)Aegon. The motivations of the character are hard to explain, without the hidden trump card that has been removed.

[AshleyN]

On 7/25/2017 at 2:20 PM, screamin said:

I fanwanked it that a devoted sculptor started work as soon as he heard about Ned's death, and worked on it ever since (with necessary interruptions for homestead burnings and whatnot) because he just loved Ned as his lord THAT much, and had faith that his bones would be brought home eventually, or if not, at least he should have a proper memorial. Farfetched, but possible.

I don't think it's farfetched at all that someone would have started working on Ned's statue as soon as news of his death spread? Ned was a beloved Lord of Winterfell, and it's a Stark tradition going back millenia that every Lord of Winterfell/King in the North has a statue in the crypts of Winterfell next to their burial spot. I don't know why they'd have to wait for his remains to physically arrive to start.

Come to think of it, I can't remember if it was in the books or the show or both, but I'm almost certain there was a scene in one of them where Maester Luwin, upon hearing the news of Ned's death straight up says that they'll have to find a stonemason who "knew his likeness".

On 7/24/2017 at 5:47 PM, blackwing said:

I find it interesting that the Sand Snake played by Jessica Henwick was named Nymeria.  And, of course, Nymeria is the name of Arya's direwolf.  This is curious to me because I believe in the books, unless we are talking about names of long dead royalty, names don't seem to get used by GRRM more than once.  The show changed Asha Greyjoy's name to Yara to avoid confusion with Osha the wildling.  So we have two Nymerias, is that OK because one of them is an animal, and it's just supposed to be an indication that Nymeria is a popular name that is the medieval Westerosi equivalent of today's Olivia, Emma and Sophia?

I would say it's the opposite actually: I'm not sure I've read another book or series where the author does reuse names as often as GRRM does. Just off the top of my head we have:

- Jon Snow, Jon Arryn, Jon Connington, and not one but two Jon Umbers

- Jeyne Poole and Jeyne Westerling

- Edric Storm and Edric Dayne

- Robert Baratheon and Robert Strong, not to mention Robb Stark, Robin Arryn, and Robett Glover

- The many, many Brandon Starks

- Rickard Stark, Rickard Karstark, and Rickon Stark

And if you include characters who are just mentioned, but not really known, the list grows exponentially (I always get a giggle out of Rhaegar Frey and his son Robert). Personally I've always liked it, it makes the world feel more lived in and real, especially since so many cases clearly involve one of the characters being named after an older one. Then again, I suppose it could just be that he ran out of ideas for names after the first 1000 characters (which I assume is what led to the Lords Grover, Elmo, and Kermit Tully).

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

 

The confrontation between Varys and Dany was fine, but it highlights that Varys has been hurt by the removal of (f)Aegon. The motivations of the character are hard to explain, without the hidden trump card that has been removed.

I agree. But at that point in the series - unfortunately I wanted to see things start to wrap up - so I was not enamoured by the possibility of another savior.  Although given that there are three dragons....(r) Aegon would have been the 3rd rider.  

[benteen]

It's a very good idea for Jon to bring along Davos.  Not only because he is basically his Hand of the King and gives very good advice but because Davos would know Dragonstone better than anyone since it was Stannis's base of power.  He's familiar with the island and in case this meeting turns out to be dangerous (we know it won't be but Jon doesn't know that) you want someone who probably knows multiple ways to escape on the island.

Edited July 27, 2017 by benteen

[Advance35]

Quote

By the way, one nice thing (?!? okay, nice might not be the best word) about the extreme gross-out scenes is that it's kind of easy to figure out what's going to happen in time to look away.  My husband and I were having a nice chat as we shielded our eyes and discussed the likely use for what appeared to be pliers.   It was an awfully long scene with no information shared which kind of baffled me.   It really did just seem to exist to make the audience gag.  

OMG no. Ugh. I was hoping the little Disgust-marathon their running at the Citadel would see a BIG decrease in screen time.  Good God. Heave.

Quote

I think we have to remember that for Olenna, along with the jolt it must be to realize that the future she planned were all wiped out in the Sept -- most particularly Margery, which was absolutely what Olenna saw as her legacy.  It also cannot go unnoticed that Olenna sees that Margery's excellent instincts for the optics as strategy still left her as nothing more than ashes in the end.  Olenna clearly and understandably feels that now is not the time for a strategy of optics.

I think what makes what happened to House Tyrell so bitter is that they played the "Game" as it were.  Had they been contending with any other House, they likely would have emerged victorious.  Picture House Tyrell in a Courtly War with the Starks, The Tullys, The Baratheons, even The Martells.  They are REALLY good at what they do.  I think they would have eventually out schemed Tywin and Tyrion for supremacy in Kings Landing had the Lannister family dynamics hadn't erupted after Joffrey's murder, (ironically this is Olenna's fault) but Cersei is insane.  Rage an pain seems to focus Cersei, at least when it comes to seeking destruction.  Rage and Pain blinds everyone who is contending with her because most have more humanity then her.

I still say that before Olenna's appearance in this episode, the most genuine emotion we ever saw from her character was the last time she and Margaery spoke to each other in the Red Keep and Margaery convinced her to leave Kings Landing.

Quote

I enjoy Lady Olenna (on the show, the character in the books does nothing for me) but I thought part of it was also that she simply isn't as invested, as the only thing she can now hope for is that Highgarden will be the sole power to survive the coming winter as was referenced by Jaime.   That would also explain why she's moved to violence, she has no one left to scheme for and every reason to believe that someone will move on her house as soon as they can, as she has no heirs, Winter has been announced by the Citadel and she can expect to have a bunch of people going after Highgarden's resources and she's out of bargaining chips in the form of heirs, appointments or marriages. 

So you think Olenna's well aware that what Cersei and Jaimie are trying to do is an inevitability?  She didn't think The Lannister's would make a play for her Bannerman but someone would be working to ascend over the ashes of the Tyrells?  So do you think the reason or one of the reasons she's pushing for a full attack on Kings Landing no matter the cost in human lives, is because she knows her time is very limited?  She knows she can't possibly hold a position of authority for much longer?  Based on the Tarly convo in the Red Keep, it's clear Olenna was counting on tradition to carry her further along but it's a currency that may just give out sooner then she expected.

[WatchrTina]

11 hours ago, Couver said:

I think Olenna not doing what you are suggesting would be more glaring if the show wasn't portraying her as grief stricken and not exactly rationale. Based on what she said at the end of season 6 she isn't looking for House Tyrell and Highgarden to survive this. I think she realizes that with no heirs left at all apparently (at least on the show) her house is doomed.

Olenna is actually in the same boat as Cersei in that she has no actual authority to rule.  Both women married into their roles as Queen and "Queen of Thornes" but only their children were in line to inherit the throne / lordship.  Cersei crowning herself queen regnant violates all norms in Westeros and is essentially a coup.  Olenna may be well-respected in the Reach but I don't think she's ruling there right now except, perhaps, within the halls of Highgarden.  The vassal lords of the Reach -- those that were pledged to House Tyrell -- have to be wondering what is going to happen now.  After all, the Tyrells only became lords of the Reach after the former ruling house was stamped out via an ill-considered confrontation with Aegon the Conqueror and his dragons.  Now another house will rise to rule and it looks like it might be House Tarley.

Edited July 27, 2017 by WatchrTina

[FemmyV]

13 hours ago, Couver said:

I think Olenna not doing what you are suggesting would be more glaring if the show wasn't portraying her as grief stricken and not exactly rationale. Based on what she said at the end of season 6 she isn't looking for House Tyrell and Highgarden to survive this. I think she realizes that with no heirs left at all apparently (at least on the show) her house is doomed. She's living now to see Cersei pay for what she did. She probably would have been better off seeking revenge with her own forces since she has a lot of what Cersei needs but I think Ellaria and Varys gave her a good pitch in season 6. Based on this episode I think Olenna expected Dany to swoop in and blitz KL and Cersei quick. She wasn't too happy with the approach they ended up taking.

No matter how grief-stricken Olenna may be, revenge against Cersei is her #1 priority. Olenna knows enough to tell her bannermen to stay in the Reach when Cersei calls. Loras and Marg may be gone, but Highgarden still needs a defending army. It also stands to reason she would have asked the Tarly's to join her against Cersei. You don't get your revenge if you play to lose everything.

Edited July 27, 2017 by FemmyV

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

They are REALLY good at what they do.  I think they would have eventually out schemed Tywin and Tyrion for supremacy in Kings Landing had the Lannister family dynamics hadn't erupted after Joffrey's murder, (ironically this is Olenna's fault) but Cersei is insane.

They're overrated. By the time Tywin was done with Oleanna, he managed to not only block the Stark piece they were targetting but he also managed to force Oleanna to agree to marry off her heir into his family.  The Tyrells were good at publicity and not much else.  Marge made the same mistake as Ned (telegraph her plans to Cersei), she was just more sarcastic about it.

 

Oleanna's action this weak of talking really pretty but failing to back it up, is par for the course for QOT

Edited July 27, 2017 by Oscirus

[DarkRaichu]

- I am sorry Yara, but anyone who sails with THAT MUCH LIGHT in the middle of the night during wartime is bound to be ambushed.  If this Black Sails fan knows about it, any experienced sailor / pirate as her should know this as well...  Hmm this creates an opening for a seasoned navy captain in Danny's army.  And who is coming south with King of the North to meet her ?  Coincidence much???? ;)

- Speaking of Black Sails, almost did not recognize Billy with long sleeves on.  I bet $100 there will be much squealing on this forum once Dickon Tarly  removes those sleeves. not to mention shirt :P

- Apparently Grey Worm also knows that secret technique that Podrick and Jon Snow mastered...  Lucky Meissadei ;) ;)  

- Man, those ballistas are going to give Danny a lot of trouble.  Those can be pointed up to shoot dragons or down at any ships coming to KL

- I am waiting for the return of Forever Friends Zone / Jorah 2.0

- Hot Pie!! Nuff said

- Nymira!  Now Arya is an assassin with a pack of wolves as her backup.. DAMN!!!

- I like how Arya turned back north and postponed her quest for revenge as soon as she heard about Jon Snow in Winterfell.  She'll be back for Cersei, but for now, family reunion time!!! 

- Also like how Varys stood up to Danny.  That was consistent with his position shown in season 1

Edited July 27, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, Advance35 said:

OMG no. Ugh. I was hoping the little Disgust-marathon their running at the Citadel would see a BIG decrease in screen time.  Good God. Heave.

I think what makes what happened to House Tyrell so bitter is that they played the "Game" as it were.  Had they been contending with any other House, they likely would have emerged victorious.  Picture House Tyrell in a Courtly War with the Starks, The Tullys, The Baratheons, even The Martells.  They are REALLY good at what they do.  I think they would have eventually out schemed Tywin and Tyrion for supremacy in Kings Landing had the Lannister family dynamics hadn't erupted after Joffrey's murder, (ironically this is Olenna's fault) but Cersei is insane.  Rage an pain seems to focus Cersei, at least when it comes to seeking destruction.  Rage and Pain blinds everyone who is contending with her because most have more humanity then her.

I still say that before Olenna's appearance in this episode, the most genuine emotion we ever saw from her character was the last time she and Margaery spoke to each other in the Red Keep and Margaery convinced her to leave Kings Landing.

So you think Olenna's well aware that what Cersei and Jaimie are trying to do is an inevitability?  She didn't think The Lannister's would make a play for her Bannerman but someone would be working to ascend over the ashes of the Tyrells?  So do you think the reason or one of the reasons she's pushing for a full attack on Kings Landing no matter the cost in human lives, is because she knows her time is very limited?  She knows she can't possibly hold a position of authority for much longer?  Based on the Tarly convo in the Red Keep, it's clear Olenna was counting on tradition to carry her further along but it's a currency that may just give out sooner then she expected.

Not so sure their scheming would have undone Tywin.  The Red Wedding pact with the Boltons and Freys shows Tywin wasn't above straying outside the boundaries of "courtly war".

[jeansheridan]

13 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Although given that there are three dragons....(r) Aegon would have been the 3rd rider.  

I dislike the idea it must be a Targ who rides the dragons. But if one is killed, problem solved.

[screamin]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 9:05 AM, anamika said:

Then, if they are already allied with the Vale, the problem with the food is taken care of right? What's the point of being allies otherwise.  In which case they should be shifting their focus to the more pressing concern of an army of the dead marching on them.

 

Vale food exists, but prices are no doubt skyrocketing...the lords with surpluses to sell aren't going to want to give it away when they can make a killing on it...and the North isn't the richest region even when they haven't had the worst in a war over several years. LF has money enough to buy food for the North if he likes, but he will no doubt attach strings to any help he gives.
 

Quote

 

I mean, this excuse would work way back in season one when WW were still mythology. But now that there are whole groups of people who have seen them and told people what they can do, it's hard to see why they are so nonchalant about it.  I guess that seeing these things with their own eyes is probably the only thing that is going to drive home the threat for them.

 

Well, we're pretty nonchalant about global warming, and that's no myth. As you say, people sometimes need to see the extent of a danger with their own eyes before they can really believe in it.

[screamin]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 1:10 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I understand your point about not having men at war, but I don't think The Reach is hurting for food either.  I always thought that's where most of the food for the entire Seven Kingdoms came from.  Which is why I also didn't quite understand Dany saying that they'd need the Dornish army to cut off supplies - can't Lady Olenna just do that with a proclamation? That has to be the majority of their food at least.

The Reach had men off at war and not planting, so their stores are going to be less than usual for winter, but AFAIK their territories weren't invaded and plundered, so their condition won't be as bad as the North or the Riverlands. Also, the Tyrrels are a notoriously rich family and can afford to buy food to make up any shortfall. But Olenna can't just prevent the Lannister armies from getting food from her territory with a proclamation. If an army needs food, it takes it from the peasants whose lord they're at war with. Olenna needs to protect her territory from sacking.

Edited July 27, 2017 by screamin
they're ain't there

[cambridgeguy]

12 hours ago, benteen said:

It's a very good idea for Jon to bring along Davos.  Not only because he is basically his Hand of the King and gives very good advice but because Davos would know Dragonstone better than anyone since it was Stannis's base of power.  He's familiar with the island and in case this meeting turns out to be dangerous (we know it won't be but Jon doesn't know that) you want someone who probably knows multiple ways to escape on the island.

Also, Jon needs to get there via stealth and that could mean smuggled via ship, which is right in Davos's wheelhouse.  I'm not sure which is safer but it's more likely to encounter Lannister soldiers on the approach to Dragonstone instead of a fleet of ships.

Speaking of Jon, why is everyone ignoring his extraordinary circumstances.  He's either an oathbreaker for abandoning the Night's Watch (an act that carries the death penalty) OR he's the guy who was resurrected by some higher power.  Are neither of these worth mentioning?

[FnkyChkn34]

35 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Also, Jon needs to get there via stealth and that could mean smuggled via ship, which is right in Davos's wheelhouse.  I'm not sure which is safer but it's more likely to encounter Lannister soldiers on the approach to Dragonstone instead of a fleet of ships.

Speaking of Jon, why is everyone ignoring his extraordinary circumstances.  He's either an oathbreaker for abandoning the Night's Watch (an act that carries the death penalty) OR he's the guy who was resurrected by some higher power.  Are neither of these worth mentioning?

He didn't break his oath - it expired when he died.  So yes, he was brought back from the dead, but that seems to be not that out of the ordinary anymore?  I think it was mentioned at the end of last season, wasn't it?

I don't know that Jon has to travel via stealth.  White Harbor is under his own control, and then to sail to Dragonstone, he's sailing past the North and the Vale.  Where are the Lannister soldiers going to be?  I'd guess he just finds an unmarked ship and looks like a trader/merchant, but I doubt he has to be smuggled.  

[MarySNJ]

22 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

In an earlier season, I'd say it was cool that two nice people got to have good, non-violent sex, but it's far too close to the end to waste that many minutes on Grey Worm and Missandei.  Or really, anyone else just having sex.  Although I probably wouldn't complain if they found some reason to get Jaime naked again.

I don't mind a little non-violent, consensual sex but I do agree that the scene went on too long (and means we didn't get to see Ghost). D&D seem to want us to care about two non-nobles who will be affected by the decisions that their royals and nobles make...and it probably means one or both are going to die.  

As for naked Ser Jaime, in my fan-girl head canon, he finally admits to himself that Brienne is his one true love and seduces her, but I suspect Jaime's not quite ready to dump Cersei-the-mad-Queen yet. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by MarySNJ

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

I dislike the idea it must be a Targ who rides the dragons. But if one is killed, problem solved.

I wasn't thrilled about the storyline -so I am not tied to the idea.  I always believed- both GRRM and show - Bran will be a rider with the warging. If (f) Aegon makes it in the books -either Jon or Dany would die.  

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I dislike the idea it must be a Targ who rides the dragons. But if one is killed, problem solved.

Can't Arya just transform to 1 of the dead Targ to ride a dragon? :D  I always wonder if her 1000 faces god magic can fool any other magical creatures like the Direwolves, dragons and WW 

Edited July 27, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Dev F]

44 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I wasn't thrilled about the storyline -so I am not tied to the idea.  I always believed- both GRRM and show - Bran will be a rider with the warging. If (f) Aegon makes it in the books -either Jon or Dany would die.  

I never thought there was any chance that three heads would be two main characters who've been around from the start and one minor character introduced five books into the series. That's like a murder mystery where you investigate all the suspects for hundreds of pages and in the end the killer ends up being some random guy who walked in off the street.

It's also not clear to me that "the dragon has three heads" has anything to do with riding dragons; Rhaegar's point is that he must have three children to fulfill the "prince that was promised" prophecy, but the idea that this involves riding dragons is just speculation based on the numbers matching up. I tend to suspect that the three heads will be the three main characters of the series -- Dany, Jon, and Tyrion -- each performing some major task to defeat the Others and save the realm.

In any event, I don't think (f)Aegon will play any more of a role in it than your average minor character, so it doesn't super bother me that the series has given Varys a simpler agenda than putting him on the throne.

[GrailKing]

39 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Can't Arya just transform to 1 of the dead Targ to ride a dragon? :D  I always wonder if her 1000 faces god magic can fool any other magical creatures like the Direwolves, dragons and WW 

Per GRRM, a rider wouldn't have to have Targ blood, but Dragons are intelligent beast, I don't think wearing a targ face is all that much protection from sense of smell.

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

He didn't break his oath - it expired when he died.  So yes, he was brought back from the dead, but that seems to be not that out of the ordinary anymore?  I think it was mentioned at the end of last season, wasn't it?

I don't know that Jon has to travel via stealth.  White Harbor is under his own control, and then to sail to Dragonstone, he's sailing past the North and the Vale.  Where are the Lannister soldiers going to be?  I'd guess he just finds an unmarked ship and looks like a trader/merchant, but I doubt he has to be smuggled.  

He'll have to use some caution, he'll have to go incognito at least once leaving White Harbor.

Sana's words to him isn't idle chit chat it's a valid warning.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

Vale food exists, but prices are no doubt skyrocketing...the lords with surpluses to sell aren't going to want to give it away when they can make a killing on it...and the North isn't the richest region even when they haven't had the worst in a war over several years. LF has money enough to buy food for the North if he likes, but he will no doubt attach strings to any help he gives.

I hope they manage to merge this in Sansa's arc, as she knows all this and more, they have her learning to rule and run a great house, she needs the food and that (stolen ) money.

Or maybe they give it to Arya, she was listening to those guys talking about prices tripling.

Edited July 27, 2017 by GrailKing

[dragonsbite]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:38 PM, stillshimpy said:

"Oh God, it's HotPie, the decent and kind, well we know what that usually bodes...it's bodes inventively and horribly dead.  Get off the screen, HotPie!! It's the only way you'll live!"  

 

ITA but your wording made me snort Dr Pepper out my nose.

[Wouter]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Also, Jon needs to get there via stealth and that could mean smuggled via ship, which is right in Davos's wheelhouse.  I'm not sure which is safer but it's more likely to encounter Lannister soldiers on the approach to Dragonstone instead of a fleet of ships.

Speaking of Jon, why is everyone ignoring his extraordinary circumstances.  He's either an oathbreaker for abandoning the Night's Watch (an act that carries the death penalty) OR he's the guy who was resurrected by some higher power.  Are neither of these worth mentioning?

Very good point. It also bothered me that nor Dany, nor Tyrion, nor Varys showed shock that someone who was commander of the Night's Watch now suddenly became king in the north. The expectation that would probably bring is that the lord commander took the Watch and/or wildlings south to overthrow the Warden, which would be unprecedented (at least as something that would actually be succesful). Melisandre should have included that little detail about being murdered and getting resurrected. Maybe she did tell them offscreen, later...

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Per GRRM, a rider wouldn't have to have Targ blood, but Dragons are intelligent beast, I don't think wearing a targ face is all that much protection from sense of smell.

IIRC GRRM said/wrote that a rider "doesn't necessarily need to be a Targ", which is open to interpretation. Is Jon Snow a Targ (not by name)? Would (f)Aegon be, if he is actually a Blackfyre (a Targ offshoot and rival family line)? What about a Velaryon, not a Targ but also the blood of old Valyria?

Most sources regarding Dragons points to the necessity of dragonlord magic to ride a dragon. Otherwise many more successful attempts of people who are not believed to be Targaryen (or otherwise from Valyrian descent) would have been recorded. Missandei, Irri, Jiqui, Doreah would each have had very good shots at being dragonriders, as would Jorah. They were often close to the dragons, were identified by the dragons as friends of "mother" and some even fed the beasts regularly. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Wouter

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, dragonsbite said:

ITA but your wording made me snort Dr Pepper out my nose.

Guess that explains why he stopped posting on page 12.  ;)

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

IIRC GRRM said/wrote that a rider "doesn't necessarily need to be a Targ", which is open to interpretation.

I believe we both said the same thing.  Not having Targ blood would mean not a targaryen, it's not the name it's the blood.

Cat is a Stark by marriage, not blood, her children are Starks and Tully because of Blood and also Stark by name.

Arya is not Targ, so just putting on a Targs face won't do it, doesn't mean she can't, but I think the Dragons smell blood and look for intentions from the people trying to ride.

[Wouter]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I believe we both said the same thing.  Not having Targ blood would mean not a targaryen, it's not the name it's the blood.

 

My point is that GRRM could have been playing with words in his answer. Was he referring to blood (even in that case, Velaryon blood is just as good and would not necessarily be considered as Targ blood) or to the name? 

"your name doesn't have to be Targaryen to ride a dragon" is something else from "you don't need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon" or the even more blanket "you don't need the right drops of blood from a dragonlord ancestor to ride a dragon". 

So, what did he imply, exactly?  

In any case, I agree that a faceless men with a Targaryen face won't cut it. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Wouter

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Wouter said:

So, what did he imply, exactly?  

Mayhaps we shall find out.  : )

Or Not.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

"your name doesn't have to be Targaryen to ride a dragon" is something else from "you don't need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon" or the even more blanket "you don't need the right drops of blood from a dragonlord ancestor to ride a dragon". 

What about Nettles? I know it's sort of vague whether she's a dragonseed or not, but she got to ride Sheepstealer because she was clever about it. 

[Wouter]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

What about Nettles? I know it's sort of vague whether she's a dragonseed or not, but she got to ride Sheepstealer because she was clever about it. 

See my point about Doreah, Irri, Jhiqui and Missandei, above. Nettles fed the dragon and it got used to her as a result. But those other characters also did that. Is Nettles about the only one in the years since the fall of old Valyria to think of something like this?

Nettles is there for ambiguity, I think, or possibly she was a glamoured child of the forest with her own branch of magic to control the dragon. Chances are, the official explanation that she was a "dragonseed" is actually true, in spite of it sounding like convenient propaganda.

Otherwise it's hard to explain why Nettles succeeded while none of the men and women serving in the dragonpits (during the Targ years) ever could ride a dragon.

[FnkyChkn34]

We might be a little bit off topic here, but I'm curious to find out if the dragons can tell that Jon is a Targaryan right away.  When the post above mentioned smell - will they be able to "smell" it on him, or use some other sixth sense that they have?  I'm kind of thinking yes, but no human will really know why the dragons will like him and trust him.  They won't put the pieces together immediately.

[Wouter]

9 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

We might be a little bit off topic here, but I'm curious to find out if the dragons can tell that Jon is a Targaryan right away.  When the post above mentioned smell - will they be able to "smell" it on him, or use some other sixth sense that they have?  I'm kind of thinking yes, but no human will really know why the dragons will like him and trust him.  They won't put the pieces together immediately.

In the book, the dragons instantly liked Brown Ben Plumm (sellsword with a few drops of Targ blood) so it seems like they can somehow "smell" Targaryen/Valyrian blood.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Wouter said:

In the book, the dragons instantly liked Brown Ben Plumm (sellsword with a few drops of Targ blood) so it seems like they can somehow "smell" Targaryen/Valyrian blood.

I'll add ; it's the same with the Direwolves, They would protect any Stark from danger, it's in their blood.

Too bad they're easier to kill then Dragons.

[Tikichick]

21 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

We might be a little bit off topic here, but I'm curious to find out if the dragons can tell that Jon is a Targaryan right away.  When the post above mentioned smell - will they be able to "smell" it on him, or use some other sixth sense that they have?  I'm kind of thinking yes, but no human will really know why the dragons will like him and trust him.  They won't put the pieces together immediately.

IMO pay attention to the dragons' rapport with anyone. 

[GrailKing]

I also hope what Aiden said in filming interviews is true and is part of a bigger scene. 

[FnkyChkn34]

42 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

IMO pay attention to the dragons' rapport with anyone. 

That's what I was thinking as well.  They're cool with Tyrion, aren't they?

[Tikichick]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

That's what I was thinking as well.  They're cool with Tyrion, aren't they?

Hmm, they were, weren't they?  Now that's interesting . . .

[Wouter]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

That's what I was thinking as well.  They're cool with Tyrion, aren't they?

They certainly were very cool with him when he came to remove their chains, listening to quite the monolog.

[GrailKing]

To Sansa and Arya, if any wolf growls  by your side kill the threat.

Just now, Wouter said:

They certainly were very cool with him when he came to remove their chains, listening to quite the monolog.

Hell, Drogon almost took Danny's head.

[lucindabelle]

On 7/24/2017 at 2:48 AM, TwistedandBored said:

Also, those Dragons better know how to zig zag/ flip/dodge whatever during the battle scenes. After all this hype about Dragons, I don't want them getting punked like Rickon. 

so much this. I don't want to see any dragon hurt. It was bad enough when they were locked up and crying for Mama and Dany is damn lucky they forgave her.