The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[JennyMominFL]

One day I was bored and went down the Clown College rabbit hole reading instructor bios. Some of them don't even have Master's Degrees! Hell, that's a pre-requisite to teach at COMMUNITY COLLEGE in California. So I posit that Joe's 6th grade education level could have been sufficient to pass classes there. After all, they're teaching math classes as basic as 8th grade algebra, not as prep for higher math, but as an acutal credit-earning class. So yeah, "education" at Clown College leaves much to be desired. 

Got to jump in and defend CC for a minute, here, although not Clown College. All CC's offer remedial classes for credit, Usually in English and  Math. They are assigned credit values because those are needed to figure out financial aid and GPA for things like "satisfactory attendance" etc.  They help determine if a student is full time, part, three-quarter time, etc. Otherwise, students get less financial aid, GI benefits, etc.. They do NOT count towards your degree. AN Associate's Degree requires 60 credits, and remedial classes don't apply. A student will have  to complete them, plus as additional 60 credits.

   I went back to school at 43, and despite having taken Algebra and Geometry back in the stone age, I had not retained them for an additional 25 years. I took two remedial Maths and then two more college level ones. Only the college level ones count towards a degree. I'm now Junior at a  Florida University, On the Presidents List, preparing honors theses and, intending on going to grad school. And I started with remedial Math.

  Not defending this idiot. Just explaining how it works

Edited January 23, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[Obsidian]

I read "Gil Bates" as "Bill Gates" EVERY FREAKING TIME and have a split second of WTF???...every freaking time. *off to apply for clown college*

So do I! I was just scrolling down to write a comment about that when I saw yours.

[SometimesBites]

Got to jump in and defend CC for a minute, here, although not Clown College. All CC's offer remedial classes for credit, Usually in English and  Math. They are assigned credit values because those are needed to figure out financial aid and GPA for things like "satisfactory attendance" etc.  They help determine if a student is full time, part, three-quarter time, etc. Otherwise, students get less financial aid, GI benefits, etc.. They do NOT count towards your degree. and Associate requires 60 credits and remedial classes don't apply. A student will have  to complete them, plus as additional 60

   I went back to school at 43 and despite having taken Algebra and Geometry back in the stone age, I had not retained them. I took two remedial Maths and then two more college level ones. Only the college level ones count towards a degree. I'm now Junior at a  Florida University, On the Presidents List, preparing honors these and intending on going to grad school. And I started with remedial Math.

  Not defending this idiot. Just explaining how it works

Brava. I went back to school (community college) at age 39, and had to take THREE remedial math classes prior to the two transferable courses (because I took one math class in high school: business math). I also graduated high school with a 2.75 GPA. Due to taking lots of extra classes for pure interest as well as jobs, kids, and a terrible death in my family, I spent 11 years at the community college. Then it was time to transfer I got a big scholarship and on a whim I applied to Stanford, and dang, if they didn't admit me. I went off to Stanford at age 50--one of 20 transfers admitted that year. I graduated at 52 with a 3.96 GPA, in the top 15% of my class.

 

My point in this long-winded brag is actually to brag on community colleges--I'm a huge booster! The one I went to has classes for driving truck, police academy, nursing, medical assisting, and auto mechanics. AND it gave me an education that got this country girl all the way to STANFORD UNIVERSITY. When I went back later as an adjunct professor, I made it clear to my students that any transferable class they took was intended to be every bit as rigorous as it would be if they were taking the class at a university. That's how it's supposed to be, that's how I was taught (and how I DID teach), and therefore when I hear community college mentioned as though it's a low-level also-ran education like that unaccredited joke of a school, Crown College, I know better. STANFORD. Jenny, you go girl. :)

[Barb23]

They have a blurb on the Duggar Family Blog that Joe completed his one year course at CC that he started January 2015. It goes on about him following in the family business of real estate & getting a CDL so he can drive the Stinkbus & construction type vehicles. It doesn't mention what he studied at CC, which some of the leg humpers inquired about & questioned too. It also mentions that son-in-law Ben is involved in the family business & is "researching options for Seminary and hopes to move forward this year." Oh, gag me.

[JennyMominFL]

 

My point in this long-winded brag is actually to brag on community colleges--I'm a huge booster! The one I went to has classes for driving truck, police academy, nursing, medical assisting, and auto mechanics. AND it gave me an education that got this country girl all the way to STANFORD UNIVERSITY. When I went back later as an adjunct professor, I made it clear to my students that any transferable class they took was intended to be every bit as rigorous as it would be if they were taking the class at a university. That's how it's supposed to be, that's how I was taught (and how I DID teach), and therefore when I hear community college mentioned as though it's a low-level also-ran education like that unaccredited joke of a school, Crown College, I know better. STANFORD. Jenny, you go girl. :)

Many of the Adjuncts who work at my CC also work at UCF. They are teaching the EXACT same class at both schools. The difference is that the one at UCF costs twice what the one costs at CC. Another thing that is being seen a lot now days is very good students choosing to do their first two years at CC because it is half the price of a University. 

   I too applied to 2 high ranking private schools(Not Standford high) , Rollins and Stetson, and got offered large scholarships to both. IN the end UCF had a better program for my degree topic so I stuck with them.

[GeeGolly]

I remember JB offering money to his kids who memorized Bible passages too. Rote memorization doesn't necessarily mean an understanding of what it being memorized.

Edited January 23, 2016 by GeeGolly

[cmr2014]

Tragic that homeschooling by Mullet so poorly prepared the quivers for successful completion of even the easiest 'higher' learning. Ma and Pa did a great job of dooming their children's potential. Way to go, Patriarch and 'Mother of the Year'.

 

What hard for me to wrap my head around is that this is what they want. They see no need for education beyond Bible reading. They don't want Joe (or any of the others) to have skills to get a regular job. They want Joe to work for the family business and be dependent on JB for life.

 

If i really stretch my mind, i can see choosing an extreme lifestyle if I believed that it would provide long-term happiness and stability for my family. But, things have gone so horribly wrong -- over and over and over -- and they just keep following the same path: J'chelle's breakdown, money problems (self-inflicted), Josh's molestation of his sisters, unhappy children, no suitors for the adult children, and on and on. Aside from the reality show and the cash, i can't think of anything that has gone right.

 

And, even if the lightbulb does ever go off, the damage has been done 

[Churchhoney]

I remember JB offering money to his kids who memorized Bible passages too. Rote memorization doesn't necessarily mean an understanding of what it being memorized.

 

Yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean no understanding, either. Especially when what's being memorized is worthwhile in itself, in thought and/or language. Memorizing pieces of the KJV is quite different from memorizing the rantings of Bill Gothard, for example.

 

I've found worth in plenty of things that I've memorized in my life, both deliberately and accidentally. Still do. Just because memorization isn't the only or the best form of learning doesn't mean it's harmful or useless. It was the norm in all older cultures -- had to be, since many people couldn't read or write, and that fact didn't stifle all individual or cultural advance. Not by a long shot.

 

Seems to me that we're so damned eager to label every one of these poor unfortunate Duggar kids as a lame-ass asshole that we aren't even willing to admit the possibility that something of worth could actually be going on inside of some of their heads or that anything they do could bear some fruit, now or down the line.

 

There are 19 kids there. It's unlikely that they're all utterly brain dead. They're in a situation that's dauntingly difficult to escape and one in which it's psychologically dangerous to say what you think. Maybe Joe actually does think about stuff he reads and memorizes. He's always been said to be quiet. So if he does think his own thoughts, it's highly unlikely at this point that he'd say them out loud, especially in any way that would let us know about it.

 

There are less illuminating things to do with your morning than read and memorize bible verses. And, even though the Duggar kids don't seem to be the brightest bulbs, much or even most of the way they present results from what's been done to them and doesn't necessarily reflect everything that's within. I think it's going to be many decades before most of them reveal who they truly are, and I'm sure that at least some will surprise us. It's hard to be them. And you can see by the pictures of Joe just how young a 21-year-old young man is, coming from that environment, seems to me.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

What hard for me to wrap my head around is that this is what they want. They see no need for education beyond Bible reading. They don't want Joe (or any of the others) to have skills to get a regular job. They want Joe to work for the family business and be dependent on JB for life.

 

 

 

They want power. .... .Or at least JB does. Absolute power. I find Michelle harder to figure out.

 

I've seen power-hungry parents up close and personal. They seem to be people whose will to power and control -- which we all have -- is just way way stronger than it is in the rest of us. They're people who have that as an outsized trait, just like all out-of-the-ordinary people have some trait that's much stronger than it is in most of humanity. They seem to have been born that way, although early experiences can allow the trait to grow even stronger. There's a lot of randomness in all of our makeups, and some people are just outliers in this way, I think. I may be describing flat-out narcissists, although I'm not sure that narcissism and power-hunger are exactly the same, although they're clearly related.

 

There is nothing rational about this, which is why we can't comprehend the "why." It's a drive. Like fight or flight or sexual desire or thirst or hunger.

 

That means that they think of everything only in terms of how it gives them -- or threatens to deprive them of -- absolute eternal power and control over all beings in their vicinity.

 

Some people have slightly different slants on it. In my family, a work ethic was a strong enough underlying principle to make them think that we'd be of more use to them as educated people with a strong ability to earn money. It never ever occurred to them that anyone would use these accomplishments as a means of escape, probably because they were so bent in every detail of every day in psychologically gluing us to the nest-prison. And, in fact, they were right about that for the most part. Even educated, salaried people still allow themselves to be manipulated like marionettes.

 

Jim Bob takes a slightly different path -- he sees depriving people of education and money as the key to his keeping control. It's the control he cares about because his eternal comfort -- which depends on having this personal marionette theater -- is the only thing that matters to him and the only thing that he even sees. He couldn't care less what happens to those kids in any other way. They are his. They do what he wants. He doesn't envision them in any other way. And just as my family didn't (and, I might argue, couldn't) think through things enough to predict the possible negative consequences of their approach -- even the negative consequences to themselves -- so does Jim Bob not see the negatives either, even those that threaten his goal. His drive is in no way rational.

 

So it's not a matter of thinking anything through, for him. Furthermore, because it's not rational, neither can most of us understand it. In fact, many people can't even see it, because it's so far out of the normal range of behaviors. That's the condition of most of the leghumpers, I expect.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

Yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean no understanding, either. Especially when what's being memorized is worthwhile in itself, in thought and/or language. Memorizing pieces of the KJV is quite different from memorizing the rantings of Bill Gothard, for example.

I've found worth in plenty of things that I've memorized in my life, both deliberately and accidentally. Still do. Just because memorization isn't the only or the best form of learning doesn't mean it's harmful or useless. It was the norm in all older cultures -- had to be, since many people couldn't read or write, and that fact didn't stifle all individual or cultural advance. Not by a long shot.

Seems to me that we're so damned eager to label every one of these poor unfortunate Duggar kids as a lame-ass asshole that we aren't even willing to admit the possibility that something of worth could actually be going on inside of some of their heads or that anything they do could bear some fruit, now or down the line.

There are 19 kids there. It's unlikely that they're all utterly brain dead. They're in a situation that's dauntingly difficult to escape and one in which it's psychologically dangerous to say what you think. Maybe Joe actually does think about stuff he reads and memorizes. He's always been said to be quiet. So if he does think his own thoughts, it's highly unlikely at this point that he'd say them out loud, especially in any way that would let us know about it.

There are less illuminating things to do with your morning than read and memorize bible verses. And, even though the Duggar kids don't seem to be the brightest bulbs, much or even most of the way they present results from what's been done to them and doesn't necessarily reflect everything that's within. I think it's going to be many decades before most of them reveal who they truly are, and I'm sure that at least some will surprise us. It's hard to be them. And you can see by the pictures of Joe just how young a 21-year-old young man is, coming from that environment, seems to me.

A lot of education is based on memorization by repetition (rote), the East Asian countries that will eventually own us all are particularly enthusiastic and reliant on it. I agree it works. The intro for this show taught me all 19 names and the birth order. Rote learning made it possible for me to say, off the top of my head, "Josh is our oldest, he married Anna, and they've had our first grandchildren Mackynzie! Michael! and Marcus! Then there's Jana! John-David! Jill! She married Derick! Jessa! She married Ben! Jinger! Joseph! Josiah! Joy-Anna! Jedidiah! Jeremiah! Jason! James! Justin! Jackson! Johannah! Jennifer! Jordyn!, and our youngest daughter Josie!"

[Churchhoney]

A lot of education is based on memorization by repetition (rote), the East Asian countries that will eventually own us all are particularly enthusiastic and reliant on it. I agree it works. The intro for this show taught me all 19 names and the birth order. Rote learning made it possible for me to say, off the top of my head, "Josh is our oldest, he married Anna, and they've had our first grandchildren Mackynzie! Michael! and Marcus! Then there's Jana! John-David! Jill! She married Derick! Jessa! She married Ben! Jinger! Joseph! Josiah! Joy-Anna! Jedidiah! Jeremiah! Jason! James! Justin! Jackson! Johannah! Jennifer! Jordyn!, and our youngest daughter Josie!"

 

And we know that was a useful thing to memorize. lol

[kokapetl]

But it worked!

[SometimesBites]

Churchhoney, I agree with you that among the 19 kids there are certainly some capable minds. John David, for example, is bright enough to get a pilot's license, and his talking head about Josh's disgrace was thoughtful and articulate. I think your point actually underscores the tragedy of JB and Michelle's choices as parents. They've borne a bunch of otherwise bright, inquisitive kids, but have raised (or are raising) them in a stew of repression and limiting beliefs.

When they're little, they do okay--lots of outdoor play time, limited screen time, and being introduced early to the concept of being helpful are three things that are productive for kids. When it really comes off the rails for them is in adolescence. That's when the strict gender roles and the rigid fear of normal sexuality start warping their full potential.

They also repeat the truly disturbing pattern of planting big notions in the kids' heads about following their passions, only to hold them back from fully developing and pursuing those passions. That's especially so for the girls--Jinger, the wannabe big city photographer, for example. How we'd all love to see that! Or see Josiah studying theater arts in college, etc. Instead we see the young men playing dress up cowboy and the young women incessantly doing each other's hair. It's a flat waste of their innate and essential selves, all due to the twisted bullshit of Gothard doctrine as embraced by Dim Bulb and Crazy Eyes.

Edited January 23, 2016 by SometimesBites

[GeeGolly]

I agree rote memorization is useful; multiplication tables and such, but I also think of how many kids recite the Pledge of Allegiance incorrectly and really give no thought to what they're saying.

 

Anyway, what I was referring to was, it is a large leap to say that a Duggar kid that has memorized Bible passages equals a smart Duggar adult. Who knows why Joe is no longer in college, but not being able to handle higher education with the foundation that they received at the dining room table is certainly a possibility.

[LilyoftheValley]

To me what we are seeing is the problem of not letting a person develop some of their own ethics and morality as they go from adolescence into adulthood.  This all just made me think of how my mother, father, brother and myself do not necessarily share the same moral and ethical viewpoint on everything, and that's okay.  We are all grown adults and we are entitled to have differing views on ethics and morality.  Now our viewpoints are not completely divergent or anything, but we they are not all the same.  As a parent you give that individual human being guidance as they grow into adulthood, but you also let them work some things out for themselves.  

 

To me this is the biggest concern of not letting the kids have friends outside the family.  The Duggars seriously underestimate how important this is for development.  Just as an example, when my niece and cousin would come over the weekend, the neighbor kids would sometimes too.  When the four of them got to be about 9, whenever I would hear them disagreeing, I would not intervene.  They needed to work things out for themselves as a group of peers starting at that age.  The Duggar children are so incredibly stunted by never experiencing this.  There was no time in their childhood and adolescence where they had to weigh another person's ethical and moral argument - it was just shoved down their throats by a parent or an older child.  

 

We talk a lot about how they constantly drop interests and career ideas, but at the end of the day it all boils down to the fact that none of these children are ever truly challenged growing up.  The moment they reach any sort of real challenge, they have absolutely zero life skills for how to handle it.  I mean look at the males in the family.  Unlike the girls, they can leave the house and venture out on their own.  Josh only did because he was just handed a job on a silver platter.  Had that not happened, he would have happily remained working as a used car salesman at his dad's lot.  The rest of them must be paralyzed by fear of actually having to face a real challenge.  

[Churchhoney]

 

 

Anyway, what I was referring to was, it is a large leap to say that a Duggar kid that has memorized Bible passages equals a smart Duggar adult.

 

I didn't say that it wasn't a leap! I said that it might happen and that I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. And I have reasons!

 

Memorization can be worthwhile for much much more than the multiplication tables. Especially if you memorize as a natural result of reading the thing over and over and over (rather than doing a half-assed deliberate memorizing job that ends with your picking the thing up incorrectly because the teacher and the other first graders are chanting it and you don't give a crap!).

 

And I do think it's perfectly possible that he's reading things over and over (and that that's how he memorized things) because that's something they seem to believe in doing (not that most of them do it) . But, if he does read the stuff over and over, a light may someday dawn -- because when you look at something over and over and over again, a light does sometimes dawn. .... In fact, it's often the only thing that does get a light to dawn, in my experience. When reading science, for example, I've often found that reading over and over and over is often the only tactic that eventually turns the light on.

 

Two other things give me hope for that morning bible reading (if it indeed takes place) and, to my mind, differentiate it from the pledging-allegiance-to-the-republic-of-Richard-Stands thing.

 

First is the fact (or possible fact, since, of course, they lie....) that he is doing it on his own. If he is the only Duggar that regularly does it, then he is doing it on his own, out of some kind of self motivation. And reading and/or memorizing something because you are personally motivated to do so is quite different from memorizing stuff because Jessa's going to make sure you take the test at the SOTDRT. Things you do out of some kind of self motivation are the most likely things to take hold and to affect you, seems to me. Just how it might affect him is anybody's guess, of course. But if he's actually motivated by something to discipline himself to read the Book of Proverbs, say, over and over again, in snippets every morning, for years, then there's something going on in his brain and spirit. Brain-dead robots don't tend to do that unless they're programmed that way. And since the other kids apparently don't do it, then the Duggar programming apparently doesn't require it.

 

The second thing that gives me some hope for an intellectual awakening in there is, in fact, the kid's religious beliefs. On some level, he's taking this stuff seriously. He's been trained that he must take it seriously. That it's a matter of life and death, in fact. And if you take something seriously, then you up your chances of truly being illuminated about it in some way, as far as I've seen. And that includes all kinds of illuminations -- from increasing your belief in the thing to having questions occur to you to feeling doubts.

 

None of which is to say that he may a) not be doing it, b) be doing it because he's hoping for another few hundred bucks from JB for doing it, and/or c) be doing it but may actually be too dumb and robotlike to ever have an actual thought of any kind about it, despite my hopes. Still, I think there's also a live possibility that he's not doomed to the lifelong idiocy that Duggardom always threatens. He reads every morning because he wants to. .... That's one of the most hopeful things I've heard about any Duggar.

[kokapetl]

I agree rote memorization is useful; multiplication tables and such, but I also think of how many kids recite the Pledge of Allegiance incorrectly and really give no thought to what they're saying.

Anyway, what I was referring to was, it is a large leap to say that a Duggar kid that has memorized Bible passages equals a smart Duggar adult. Who knows why Joe is no longer in college, but not being able to handle higher education with the foundation that they received at the dining room table is certainly a possibility.

Rote memorization is a very valuable part of medicine, law, engineering and hard sciences. The rote repetition creates the repertoire.

I doubt the school of the dining room table is consistent enough to even teach the times tables by rote.

[Churchhoney]

There's a place in the world for memorization - the ABC'. Multiplication tables, for example. But unless memorization leads to deeper understanding of the more complex, it can be just a head full of jumbled cliches.

 

Yeah, it can lead to a head of jumbled cliches. But you're assuming that it never leads to deeper understanding. And that's not true! Sometimes it is a path to deeper understanding. That's all that I'm saying. That the idea that it never leads to deeper understanding is an unfounded assumption that ignores much of what we know about learning throughout history.

 

So, knowing that, I'm going to continue to hold out a bit of hope about Joe Duggar! 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

 rather, my comments refer to the parents that stifle their children by handing them things like 'Wisdom Books' with the implication that all inside is FACT, so 'don't worry your pretty little head' about thinking or digging any deeper. Add to that the attitude that questioning = a lack of faith, and, therefore, a sign that one needs to work harder to BELIEVE.

 

 

 

 

Totally agree.

 

That's why I said that what you were memorizing made a difference -- and that Gothard's blather certainly doesn't make the cut. And of course that's true both because of its content -- garbage -- and the fact that it's memorized not out of any self motivation but because parents prescribe it.

 

I doubt that anybody but Gothardites want kids to memorize Gothard's Wisdom books.

[LilyoftheValley]

It's simply how a cult operates - some guru up high dictates the knowledge the followers will have and that is the end of it.  

 

This was essentially how at least western civilization operated until the enlightenment.  It was not until the middle of the 18th century that thinking for yourself and having critical thinking skills was even an option.  It is incredibly depressing to me that people reject one of the greatest things humanity ever achieved - that the individual can form her own meaning and develop her own set of ethics.  This is why I can never understand the appeal of cults, gurus, preachers, organized religion, patriarchy, etc.  Why would you hand over that autonomy to someone else?  it used to be that you had to.  You don't have to anymore.  

 

You know what I think it is?  The Duggars and Bates family are simply total cowards.  They're afraid to dig deep and think for themselves.  They're weak and fearful and so they hand that over to someone else, and in true cult fashion that person is a sexual predator.  

[LilyoftheValley]

I share your befuddlement on WHY people choose to remain perpetual children, as if remaining childlike in approach to real life is somehow ethically superior to striving to define one's own personality, beliefs, and goals.

 

I call this morality without ethics (which is of course no morality at all).  It is, as you say, a child's understanding of right and wrong.  

 

The best example of all this is the "life at all costs" approach to pregnancy and childbirth.  The "moral" thing to do is bring every pregnancy to term and fight for the child's life, when most of the time the ethical thing to do is to terminate the pregnancy and spare the baby a very short life of pain and suffering (in addition to sparing the rest of the family all that pain).  The Duggars cannot wrap their childlike minds around ethics, and so they desperately cling to what they think are strong morals.  But as I said, morals without ethics are only empty platitudes.  It gives fundies an ego boost without requiring any critical thinking on their part.  

[Barb23]

I doubt the school of the dining room table is consistent enough to even teach the times tables by rote.

You are right, at least for James. Remember Jill "tutoring" him with multiplication flashcards when he visited the Dullards?

[Churchhoney]

I share your befuddlement on WHY people choose to remain perpetual children, as if remaining childlike in approach to real life is somehow ethically superior to striving to define one's own personality, beliefs, and goals.

 

Well, it's the classic "authoritarian personality," isn't it?

 

Described down below  in Psychology Today --

 

Nobody seems to know how you get one, but the best guess seems to be that while it might be to some degree a trait conditioned in you by your upbringing, it's probably mostly biological -- as in, some people in our species are just like this. ... Probably not surprising in a herd/pack species, really, I think.....If everybody was an individual, the herd/pack wouldn't hold together very well, so there's obviously been survival rewards for groups that produce some of these. For a herd/pack/flock to survive, you need some who can lead but you also desperately need some who'll follow without question, I expect.

 

Here's the Psychology Today. All sounds pretty Duggarish to me.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sideways-view/201502/the-mind-the-authoritarian

 

"Authoritarians have been shown to avoid situations that involve any sort of ambiguity or uncertainty, are reluctant to believe that ‘good people’ possess both good and bad attributes.  However they often appear less interested in political affairs, participate less in political and community activities, and tend to prefer strong leaders.

There are a number of well-established measures of authoritarianism; the best known (and hence the most widely used) is the California F Scale which attempts to measure prejudice, rigid thinking.  There are nine factors and statements reflecting each factor:

1. Conventionalism: rigid adherence to conventional middle-class values.

2. Authoritarian submission: uncritical acceptance of authority.

3. Authoritarian aggression: a tendency to condemn anyone who violates conventional norms. 

4. Anti-intraception: rejection of weakness or sentimentality.

5. Superstition and stereotypy: belief in mystical determinants of action and rigid, categorical thinking.

6. Power and toughness: preoccupation with dominance over others. 

7. Destructiveness and cynicism: a generalized feeling of hostility and anger.

8. Projectivity: a tendency to project inner emotions and impulses outward.

9. Sex: exaggerated concern for proper sexual conduct."

Edited January 24, 2016 by Churchhoney

[louannems]

Their truely ridiculous stand on anti-birth-control is what I hate most about J/M. Most quiverfulls live impoverished lives in isolation. Very few (like only 2!!!) have a TV show to support that kind of life style. We only have to look at how the Duggars and the Bates lived pre TV.

[Micks Picks]

Did anybody see the Bible Games or whatever it was called.  It was televised a couple of weeks ago and there are big competitions where teams go up against one another.  They have specialized tutors, plenty of fundy dresses, and lots of pale families.  Like a spelling bee, but a bible bee.  And some of the kids talk so fast you'd think they trained for a debate squad.  Buzzers to push, like in Jeopardy.  It's a big deal that I had never heard of before.

[Churchhoney]

Did anybody see the Bible Games or whatever it was called.  It was televised a couple of weeks ago and there are big competitions where teams go up against one another.  They have specialized tutors, plenty of fundy dresses, and lots of pale families.  Like a spelling bee, but a bible bee.  And some of the kids talk so fast you'd think they trained for a debate squad.  Buzzers to push, like in Jeopardy.  It's a big deal that I had never heard of before.

 

I've read in various accounts of fundie childhoods of smallish-scale bible contests of various sorts. Made me think that this was a fairly common activity. But I gather from Wikipedia that this big one -- that is probably the one televised? -- is pretty new, started by somebody in 2009. 

[FakeJoshDuggar]

I've read in various accounts of fundie childhoods of smallish-scale bible contests of various sorts. Made me think that this was a fairly common activity. But I gather from Wikipedia that this big one -- that is probably the one televised? -- is pretty new, started by somebody in 2009.

TFDW used to either host it or judge it. Off the top of my head, I think that's where they were traveling from when the Pecan Thievery happened.

[RazzleberryPie]

Bible Bowls or quiz teams are not just a fundie thing. The ones mentioned above may be primarily fundie, but nearly every denomination has (or used to have ) something similar. They're especially common with church or parochial schools. Same concept as Mathletes or History Bowl or whatever. Some kids are hard core obsessed, some just do it for the field trip.

 

I remember doing this as a kid, and it really wasn't culty or fundie. It was a part of mid-week services, consisted of learning books of the bible, bible trivia, etc. Then maybe one Saturday a year we'd go and compete against otheryouth groups. There were  talent shows, etc., too, and the whole thing usually ended with a big pizza party.

[Churchhoney]

Bible Bowls or quiz teams are not just a fundie thing. The ones mentioned above may be primarily fundie, but nearly every denomination has (or used to have ) something similar. They're especially common with church or parochial schools. Same concept as Mathletes or History Bowl or whatever. Some kids are hard core obsessed, some just do it for the field trip.

 

I remember doing this as a kid, and it really wasn't culty or fundie. It was a part of mid-week services, consisted of learning books of the bible, bible trivia, etc. Then maybe one Saturday a year we'd go and compete against otheryouth groups. There were  talent shows, etc., too, and the whole thing usually ended with a big pizza party.

 

True. And there are Jewish ones, too.

 

I sort of wonder whether they may not be a bigger deal for some fundie kids, though, since they're among the kids who have the least activities of any kind!

[RazzleberryPie]

True. And there are Jewish ones, too.

 

I sort of wonder whether they may not be a bigger deal for some fundie kids, though, since they're among the kids who have the least activities of any kind!

I bet you're right. Just like those one or two Mathletes whose lives revolve around it, while the rest of them are normal or even coerced into it. Where Bible Bowls were a learning opportunity and a socialization one for us, plus a fun Saturday trip, for these kids who hardly ever socialize and have no opportunities for sports, scouts, dance, etc., it may be their Little League World Series.

[queenanne]

I wonder if they know "the song"??  (Speaking of rote memorization, I learned all of the books of the Bible before age 10 from a song taught by some visiting missionaries, and I can do 'em still, decades later.)

They also repeat the truly disturbing pattern of planting big notions in the kids' heads about following their passions, only to hold them back from fully developing and pursuing those passions. That's especially so for the girls--Jinger, the wannabe big city photographer, for example. How we'd all love to see that! Or see Josiah studying theater arts in college, etc. Instead we see the young men playing dress up cowboy and the young women incessantly doing each other's hair. It's a flat waste of their innate and essential selves, all due to the twisted bullshit of Gothard doctrine as embraced by Dim Bulb and Crazy Eyes.

 

Also, forgot to say that this jogged my mind.  Maybe as more of the Duggars start to attain their majority, we'll start to see them doing something differently, because the siblings could - shhhhh - team up as accountability partners.  Join forces and make a case for a two-person team to go to college together in the same city.

Edited January 24, 2016 by queenanne

[Churchhoney]

I think you just described the uber right wing evangelical Republicans. FEAR! LOATHING! NO!

Someone really should calligraphy those 9 points so it could be added to the Duggar auditorium decor. Seems a good summary of The Duggar Family Mission Statement.

 

Yeah, I agree, although apparently they don't need any reminding to adhere to these principles of action! (And Psychology Today and the "California F Scale" (whatever that is) did the describing, of course, not me.)

 

When you look at that list, it's really striking what a classic example of this widely known personality type the Duggars are.

 

Interesting to me that right up front the list includes the paradox that a lot of people point to in Jim Bob -- that this personality type exhibits both Authoritarian aggression and domination and "Authoritarian submission." And that it ends with the kicker -- the big obsession: sex.

[kokapetl]

Well, it's the classic "authoritarian personality," isn't it?

Described down below in Psychology Today --

Nobody seems to know how you get one, but the best guess seems to be that while it might be to some degree a trait conditioned in you by your upbringing, it's probably mostly biological -- as in, some people in our species are just like this. ... Probably not surprising in a herd/pack species, really, I think.....If everybody was an individual, the herd/pack wouldn't hold together very well, so there's obviously been survival rewards for groups that produce some of these. For a herd/pack/flock to survive, you need some who can lead but you also desperately need some who'll follow without question, I expect.

Here's the Psychology Today. All sounds pretty Duggarish to me.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sideways-view/201502/the-mind-the-authoritarian

"Authoritarians have been shown to avoid situations that involve any sort of ambiguity or uncertainty, are reluctant to believe that ‘good people’ possess both good and bad attributes. However they often appear less interested in political affairs, participate less in political and community activities, and tend to prefer strong leaders.

There are a number of well-established measures of authoritarianism; the best known (and hence the most widely used) is the California F Scale which attempts to measure prejudice, rigid thinking. There are nine factors and statements reflecting each factor:

1. Conventionalism: rigid adherence to conventional middle-class values.

2. Authoritarian submission: uncritical acceptance of authority.

3. Authoritarian aggression: a tendency to condemn anyone who violates conventional norms.

4. Anti-intraception: rejection of weakness or sentimentality.

5. Superstition and stereotypy: belief in mystical determinants of action and rigid, categorical thinking.

6. Power and toughness: preoccupation with dominance over others.

7. Destructiveness and cynicism: a generalized feeling of hostility and anger.

8. Projectivity: a tendency to project inner emotions and impulses outward.

9. Sex: exaggerated concern for proper sexual conduct."

Some of the 9 points are intriguing, but some, like #3, are so broad that only an anarchist would be able to answer no.

Practically every person on the planet believes that everyone else should behave appropriately, we want people to behave acceptably. Improper behavior is not proper. Is it acceptable to accept the unacceptable?

[Churchhoney]

Some of the 9 points are intriguing, but some, like #3, are so broad that only an anarchist would be able to answer no.

Practically every person on the planet believes that everyone else should behave appropriately, we want people to behave acceptably. Improper behavior is not proper. Is it acceptable to accept the unacceptable?

 

Well, they put more detail onto it on the website.  And it's long been a standard psychological personality category, accepted by many psychologists and systems.

 

But for me the key words are "conventional norms." That says to me that you're not willing to find acceptable anything that's outside what the average most commonly held view has been, outside of the long-time traditional decrees. And since I, for example, find acceptable a lot of things that are outside of those -- such as atheism, the fact that someone can have a legitimate desire to be transgender, the finding that there are seagulls and penguins living in homosexual pairings and that it's fine for kids to read about this in school -- then I don't fall into the #3  basket, and I know plenty of other people who don't either.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Vaysh]

Some of the 9 points are intriguing, but some, like #3, are so broad that only an anarchist would be able to answer no.

Practically every person on the planet believes that everyone else should behave appropriately, we want people to behave acceptably. Improper behavior is not proper. Is it acceptable to accept the unacceptable?

 

It doesn't say proper or acceptable though, it says conventional, so I took #3 as referring back to #1's "rigid adherence to conventional middle class values". Most people want others to behave properly in the sense that they don't want other people to steal, cheat or lie; authoritarian people however tend to be very critical of any kind of unconventional behaviour like say, dying one's hair green (lookin' at you Erin...) even when it is in no way dangerous or dishonest, just different.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Vaysh

[kokapetl]

Well, they put more detail onto it on the website. And it's long been a standard psychological personality category, accepted by many psychologists and systems.

But for me the key words are "conventional norms." That says to me that you're not willing to find acceptable anything that's outside what the average most commonly held view has been, outside of the long-time traditional decrees. And since I, for example, find acceptable a lot of things that are outside of those -- such as atheism, the fact that someone can have a legitimate desire to be transgender, the finding that there are seagulls and penguins living in homosexual pairings and that it's fine for kids to read about this in school -- then I don't fall into the #3 basket, and I know plenty of other people who don't either.

But atheism has been technically acceptable for over 200 years due to the "No Religious Test" clause, sexual reassignment surgery has been accepted and not illegal, I don't think it's ever been illegal, for over 50 years, and publishers publish what will sell, gay penguin children's books aren't vanity publications. It's arguable that none of what you've listed is actually transgressive to what is the current conventional norm. Gothardism exists, and it's legal(-ish) due to long established constitutional rights. Is a person authoritarian if they can't accept that? Edited January 24, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Ilovemylabs]

I think you just described the uber right wing evangelical Republicans. FEAR! LOATHING! NO!

Someone really should calligraphy those 9 points so it could be added to the Duggar auditorium decor. Seems a good summary of The Duggar Family Mission Statement.

Well, I am a Republican and also pro-life, but I still think the Duggars are way out there!  I definitely believe in birth control.  Pro-choice before conception and pro-life after conception.

[frenchtoast]

Somehow we've wandered far off the path of Jana, Josiah and Jinger. And JD, too. Let's steer away from political/abortion etc talk and slide back to the topic.

[JoanArc]

Looks like JD worked as a roadie for some christian girl group. Pickles has pictures. He's looking every inch of 45...

Edited January 24, 2016 by JoanArc

[CofCinci]

Looks like JD worked as a roadie for some christian girl group. Pickles has pictures. He's looking every inch of 45...

I wouldn't be surprised if he eats fast food for breakfast, lunch and dinner - especially since he is the only one with any freedom and probably wants to avoid the constant circus at the TTH.

[Almost 3000]

Looks like JD worked as a roadie for some christian girl group. Pickles has pictures. He's looking every inch of 45...

Surprising, the band is good and has original stuff. The look is all very pinteresty pretty. The Southern Raised bluegrass band is made up of three girls and their brother. They like Roy Rodgers, books about the Civil War, guns, trucks and vintage stuff. Seem more Bates than Duggar.

[Gweilo]

Looks like JD worked as a roadie for some christian girl group. Pickles has pictures. He's looking every inch of 45...

 

Surprising, the band is good and has original stuff. The look is all very pinteresty pretty. The Southern Raised bluegrass band is made up of three girls and their brother. They like Roy Rodgers, books about the Civil War, guns, trucks and vintage stuff. Seem more Bates than Duggar.

 

Oooooh, things just got interesting!  Southern Raised is made up of the Reith family.  Sarah Reith was the girl who courted and then dumped Zach Bates before he met & married Whitney (I believe there are no hard feelings between the ex-couple).  Is JD possibly courting his best friend's ex? 

[RazzleberryPie]

Let's see how that whole 'giving away pieces of the heart' fits in if you cour your besties ex. Even if things did end amicabally.

[Vaysh]

I sincerely doubt JD is courting any of those girls, they are way out of his league. John David honestly looks like he's in his forties with an ever expanding beer gut and receding hair line, and they all look pretty and relatively modern. No matter how steady or nice he is (assuming that he is any of those things) I just can't imagine any young woman being interested in JD the way he looks now. Maybe I'm just very shallow but imo he looks like someone's dad.

[riverblue22]

Yeah, from the neck down, he looks like his dad.

[RazzleberryPie]

Think about how small the pond is for these girls, though. If Josh was The Catch a few years ago, JD is at least as good looking, far more productive, and not smarmy. He comes off to me as the type who all you'd have to do is feed him and tell him he's special once in a while and he'd be content. He's also better than being an Old Maid Stay at Home Daughter.

JD has potential, if a Marjorie type could just wrangle him away from his nutso parents.

[Churchhoney]

It's odd, and sad, for the Duggar kids that in a way they seem to skip young adulthood. They all look and seem so young, through their teen years and into their early 20s. Like preteens and very young teens way beyond those years. And then all of a sudden they start to give off a vibe of being old and slow and worn out. They even start to look old

 

It's as if life truly does pass them by. They seem to miss out entirely on the adventure and bloom and spirit of young adulthood. And all because their parents spare no effort from day one in stifling every sign of independence, individuality, curiosity, sexuality -- everything that naturally characterizes that period.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Churchhoney

[RazzleberryPie]

A coworker of mine pastors a not quite fundie Baptist church (but going that direction more and more), and he's on the homeschool train now. He and his wife, who are actually doing real schooling and not Duggar fooling, are insistent that adolescence and teenage developmental stages are completely 20th century contrivances that are made up and not real. They think we go straight from childhood to adulthood, and all this 'teenage' bs is part of the cause of the breakdown of society. If you don't jump into immediate adult roles, you have people who never grow up, unwed parents, perpetual unemployed people, partying, drugs, alcohol, STDs, homeless, mental illness (which is all fake and in your head, unless you're stark raving mad, of course), cats and dogs living together, utter chaos, etc.

 

Have the Duggars expressed this same type of thought? it makes sense if they do, because they also seem to jump straight from childhood into marriage and parenting, with none of the teenage socialization years.

[GeeGolly]

A coworker of mine pastors a not quite fundie Baptist church (but going that direction more and more), and he's on the homeschool train now. He and his wife, who are actually doing real schooling and not Duggar fooling, are insistent that adolescence and teenage developmental stages are completely 20th century contrivances that are made up and not real. They think we go straight from childhood to adulthood, and all this 'teenage' bs is part of the cause of the breakdown of society. If you don't jump into immediate adult roles, you have people who never grow up, unwed parents, perpetual unemployed people, partying, drugs, alcohol, STDs, homeless, mental illness (which is all fake and in your head, unless you're stark raving mad, of course), cats and dogs living together, utter chaos, etc.

 

Have the Duggars expressed this same type of thought? it makes sense if they do, because they also seem to jump straight from childhood into marriage and parenting, with none of the teenage socialization years.

I'm not sure if I've heard them express it that way, but it certainly sounds like something they would believe.

 

They try and approach life so Old School, and folks married young back in the day and kind of skipped over teenagehood. But yeesh, even Half-Pint got into plenty of shenanigans back on the prairie.

[louannems]

I'm not sure if I've heard them express it that way, but it certainly sounds like something they would believe.

 

They try and approach life so Old School, and folks married young back in the day and kind of skipped over teenagehood. But yeesh, even Half-Pint got into plenty of shenanigans back on the prairie.

And didn't she go away to college?