S07.E01: Dragonstone

[izabella]

7 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I'm so annoyed that Jaime is still with Cersei,it makes no sense imo.She basically did what he killed the mad king for and he's still there.I do think he'll probably reach his limit this season and abandon her but I feel like they started developing him in season 3 and then just paused that and mostly regressed him for the next 3 seasons.After reading the books,the way they dealt with Jaime is one of the things I really dislike.

His role is lame and has been for a while.  He's really become useless as a character, except for Cersei to tell her horrid plans to.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

There's the North (Jon), the Vale (LF), the Iron Islands (Euron), the Westerlands (Cersei), the Riverlands (???), the Reach (Oleanna), Dorne (Ellaria), the Stormlands (???), and I guess the Crownlands (Cersei).  I don't know who has the Stormlands with all the Baratheons dead and the Riverlands appear to be up for grabs with Edmure presumably still in a dungeon and the Freys wiped out by Arya.

Sorry, but you just named 9, and the Iron Islands are not a Kingdom.

The great houses are:

1. Stark of Winterfell, rulers of The North

2. Tully of Riverrun, rulers of The Riverlands

3. Arryn of the Eyrie, rulers of The Vale

4. Lannister of Casterly Rock, rulers of The Westernlands

5. Baratheon of Storm's End, rulers of The Stormlands

6. Tyrell of Highgarden, rulers of The Reach

7. Martell of Sunspear, rulers of Dorne

The North, The Vale, The Stormlands, and Dorne are definitely not allies of Cersei's anymore, and I think The Reach is questionable.

[whateverdgaf]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

His role is lame and has been for a while.  He's really become useless as a character, except for Cersei to tell her horrid plans to.

I actually disagree. I think Jaime is very interesting, because right now he's aware that he's in a rubbish situation, but at the same time there is nothing left for him to do. There is no reason for him to believe that Daenerys is any better than Cersei, at least with Cersei he has a degree of influence over her. And he feels too responsible to leave Cersei alone to do what she likes. NCW shows the internal struggle Jaime is going through really well.

[FnkyChkn34]

27 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Sansa isn't older than Jon.  Cannot remember if Jon or Robb was older, but Sansa definitely is younger than Jon.

Robb and Jon are practically the same age, only months apart, IIRC. 

[gbbarb]

1 hour ago, KungFuBunny said:

Is it really Littlefinger's army? I thought they were Crazy Cousin Robin's. Sansa could have Littlefinger killed and bring in Cousin Robin - she had more influence and control over him.

Littlefinger control Robin and Robin controls the army therefore Littlefinger controls the army.   We have no clue if Robin would choose Sansa over Littlefinger and testing that hypothesis could be very dangerous.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

Sorry, but you just named 9, and the Iron Islands are not a Kingdom.

They definitely are in the books.  Seven Kingdoms is a misnomer because the Riverlands were in flux when Aegon landed but it's just as important as the other regions so they weren't included in the seven count.   There are nine administrative regions in Westeros although it's debatable if Jaime counts the Crownlands as separate.

I don't see how you can think the Reach is questionable unless there's a civil war no one mentioned and Oleanna isn't in charge anymore.  Blowing up your region's lord and his family tend to go over poorly.

[gbbarb]

34 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Dumb question, but Cersei said she was the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and Jaime said she was really queen of only three?  What are the seven Kingdoms again?  I think they are the areas surrounding the North, the Iron Islands, Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Casterly Rock, Highgarden, and Dorne.  Which three are Cersei supposed to have?  I gather Kings Landing and Casterly Rock but don't know which the third one is supposed to be, unless Jaime was counting the Iron Islands?

I thought the repeated quick cut scenes of Sam retching were hilarious, but I did find it disgusting.  Especially since I was eating.  I will never look at a bowl of lentil or bean soup the same way ever again.

So if I recall correctly, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, since she is the legitimate heir.  Which afforded her the right to sit at that head table, since they were in Winterfell.  But Jon got named the King in the North even though he has no real title?  So he outranks her now, even though they are half-siblings and she might even be older than him?

I'm with those that are tired of Lyanna Mormont, for the same reasons.  It just seems like her only role is going to shame men into doing whatever Jon wants.  "I'm just a wee little girl but my balls are bigger than those of any of you big strong men."  It's tired.

I was tired of Lyanna Mormont last season, she is a Mary Sue character.

[stillshimpy]

40 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But she mentioned a pregnant woman (Talisa) and a mother of five children (Catelyn), she mentioned the Starks.  It was obvious that the Face was there because of the Starks and she showed her face. Sorry, but not impossible at all.

She pulled off her face.  She's going to be identified as a Faceless Man (non-gender specific division).  That's what Walder's not overly bright bride saw. 

"He was Walder! He was Lord Frey, I saw it.  He talked to everyone, he talked about murdering the Starks...and then he pulled off his face and said..." 

I think they might not necessarily believe her, for starters because "then he pulled off his face" is going to feature really quite highly in her narrative, even though she has the IQ of a spoiled plum, as far as we can tell.  So, for one thing, the witness sounds insane and the serving girls were all doing what Walder told them to do too.  So, let's review the evidence:  

Serving Girls see Walder Frey set this up.  

Walder Frey's nearly witless (as far as we know because that poor actress is apparently directed to "please, give off all the intellectual activity of a turnip, no....a little more open-mouthed, if you could...thank you, that's perfect...") widow then fills in the rest that highly features "And then he pulled off his face...."  

I think you might be underestimating how much of factor that will be in any retelling of the tale by said Sole Witness.  Please remember, these are the people who can't believe that an Army of the Dead shambles forth, despite shit like legends and dying and....more than the occasional zombie sighting.   I'm not too worried that Westeros CSI is going to draw the conclusion that it was the Starks. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I thought the repeated quick cut scenes of Sam retching were hilarious, but I did find it disgusting.

I found it was a waste of precious time. I kept counting the seconds and thinking we could have seen more of everyone else. Other than that I liked Sam's scenes a lot. The Citadel reminded me of The Name of the Rose, and Jim Broadbent had a certain William of Baskerville vibe. Loved their scenes and we'll see what Sam will learn there. On a shallow note, Gilly's hair looked fab.

5 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I'm so annoyed that Jaime is still with Cersei,it makes no sense imo.She basically did what he killed the mad king for and he's still there.I do think he'll probably reach his limit this season and abandon her but I feel like they started developing him in season 3 and then just paused that and mostly regressed him for the next 3 seasons.After reading the books,the way they dealt with Jaime is one of the things I really dislike.

I liked their scenes a lot, specially how Cersei kept talking about her plans and Jamie was looking at her with that 'you are batshit insane, twinie' face. Euron becoming ingrained in their story is great, because it will have another focus for Jamie other than Cersei. 

[that one guy]

5 hours ago, Inquirer said:

Here's something I don't get: there's this huge debate going on about the ethical ramifications of punishing two kids due to the sins of their parents and whether Sansa or Jon is right in the matter.  Fine, I get that.  But nobody seems to be questioning if MAYBE Arya's little opening stunt wasn't morally justified?  That murdering every son based on the sin of their parent might be needlessly excessive? Seriously, I keep hearing "SO BADASS" responses to that scene and I'm like "really?"  I get satisfaction at Walder's death, but every Frey male in the House?

Yeah, as revenge/justice it's not justified. BUT - while he was being a total hypocrite, Tywin was right when he said it was better to kill a dozen at dinner than a thousand in battle. We've seen what huge obstacles Moat Cailin and the Twins are to forces wanting to go back and forth between the North and the rest of Westeros. The Vale holds Moat Cailin at the moment, but an army could never march South without getting past the Twins. I half expected Jon to agree to marry Dany in exchange for having a dragon torch the Twins. Eliminating the Freys makes it much more likely the North will join the war in the South. So while it wasn't her intention, my guess is Arya has saved thousands of lives here by making a huge battle unnecessary. At the end of the episode we saw that Dragonstone has been completely abandoned since the death of Stannis. It seems unlikely the common soldiers, who looked like a ragtag bunch at the gates of Riverrun anyway, will stand and fight with Walder and his sons and grandsons dead. In fact, if Arya had bothered to release her uncle from the dungeons, the survivors might even have taken the knee and pledged to the rightful lord of the Trident. WTF, Arya?

Speaking of Dragonstone, Jamie warned Cersei that Dany would land there, which if you look at a map is obvious. Dragonstone commands Blackwater Bay, along with Driftmark and Claw Island, whose ruling families are of Valyrian descent like the Targaryens. This is because the "crownlands" were a Targaryen-controlled Valyrian trading colony even before the Conquest. Before the Doom, the Targs, who previously hadn't been a hugely important family in the Valyrian Freehold, grew wealthy and powerful by controlling trade between Westeros and the Freehold through the deep water port at Dragonstone, which was mentioned in this episode. After Stannis abandoned it, the Lannisters should have seized it immediately. In the books, they tried - even while Stannis still lived - which is where Ser Loras was severely injured. On the show, they appear to have just left it alone, even though Stannis' forces appear to have completely abandoned the fortress. Why would Cersei leave the fortress completely undefended? On the show, she's been pretty canny, evidenced by the fact that she's still alive. But this is a really boneheaded error. Now Danaerys is in position to repeat Stannis' attack on Kings Landing, with a more impressive force. 

Given that the scene comes AFTER Euron sails into Blackwater Bay - he had to pass Dragonstone to do so - Cersei should have responded, when he said he'd bring her a gift, "what I really wanted for my birthday was a castle with dragons carved on it." He got there first, but didn't seize the fortress, which is just stupid. If it were occupied, it would have to be taken before a fleet could move against King's Landing.

Also, which 3 kingdoms does Jaime think Cersei controls? There are actually 9 kingdoms, "The 7 Kingdoms" is just what they're called. At the time of the conquest, the Riverlands were controlled by the Ironborn King Harren the Black, and the Crownlands, again, were Valyrian territory. But we have - the North, controlled by the Starks. The Vale, controlled by Littlefinger. The Iron Islands, controlled by Euron. The Westerlands - controlled by the Lannisters, so that's one. The Riverlands - controlled by the Mountain the Blackfish House Frey the Brotherhood without Banners um, maybe those Lannister troops Arya ate dinner with? They seem to be in a state of total anarchy. The Crownlands - through sheer negligence, only Kings Landing is controlled by the Lannisters. Dany may soon control the rest. The Reach - Olenna? The Stormlands - who knows? Maybe the Lannisters do control this, after the defection of Renly's forces to the Tyrell/Lannister alliance. But that alliance is over, it's possible the Stormlords have followed Olenna to the Targaryen side. Dorne - the Sand Snakes. So maybe the three are the West, the Stormlands, and Kings Landing, or sort of the Riverlands? They need the Riverlands or the Reach in order to connect Kings Landing with Lannisport.

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

You miss those other musicians who been in the series?

GOT been doing this at least since season 3 Reynes of Castamere in the Red Wedding episode. 

Let's not pretend that Sigur Ros is recognizable in the same way as Ed Sheeran. 

I didn't know who Sigur Ros was before they were at Joffrey's wedding, but honestly I still have no idea who Ed Sheeran is. Probably I'm way to old. I did recognize the "band" at the Red Wedding as the National, that's somebody I actually listen to. They also played the version of "The Rains of Castamere" that played over the end credits in that episode, which was way better than the version they played in the actual wedding, where they sucked because they supposed to be assassins, not professional musicians (the credits track was supposed to be Florence and the Machine, who had a scheduling conflict, and the National was already involved in the episode and had learned the song). I didn't think having them there detracted from the scene. I liked the scene with the Lannister troops, but again, I don't know Ed Sheeran from Ed Smith in accounting.

5 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I was a bit shocked that Cersei viewed Tommen as a traitor though.

I had a friend (who was also my boss) who died, it wasn't even a suicide, and I was so, so angry for being left in the lurch. I can remember yelling, "how could you do this to me?" It's not rational, but I understand it and have been there. Killing the King is treason, even if you're the king and it's a suicide. It's a violation of the oath of office and your duty to the Crown in the abstract.

[Constantinople]

14 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I actually disagree. I think Jaime is very interesting, because right now he's aware that he's in a rubbish situation, but at the same time there is nothing left for him to do. There is no reason for him to believe that Daenerys is any better than Cersei, at least with Cersei he has a degree of influence over her. And he feels too responsible to leave Cersei alone to do what she likes. NCW shows the internal struggle Jaime is going through really well.

It's not as if Jaime has a lot of alternatives.  Daenerys would likely execute him or, at best, force him to join the Night's Watch, which doesn't interest him.  Turning himself over the Starks likely means imprisonment at best.  He can't be a mercenary because he can't fight particularly well left handed.

[Dev F]

18 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

They definitely are in the books.  Seven Kingdoms is a misnomer because the Riverlands were in flux when Aegon landed but it's just as important as the other regions so they weren't included in the seven count.

Yeah, King Robert even makes mention of this back in season 1 of the show when he talks about the tradition of "making the eight": "Back in our day, you weren't a real man until you'd fucked one girl from each of the Seven Kingdoms and the Riverlands."

Quote

There are nine administrative regions in Westeros although it's debatable if Jaime counts the Crownlands as separate.

I doubt it; it's just the relatively small area surrounding the seat of Cersei's power; when calculating the reach of the queen's power, there's no point in counting the spot she's currently standing on.

Quote

I don't see how you can think the Reach is questionable unless there's a civil war no one mentioned and Oleanna isn't in charge anymore.  Blowing up your region's lord and his family tend to go over poorly.

Yep, Cersei specifically mentions the Reach as the "enemies to the west." Since Jaime doesn't yet know that Cersei has reached out to Euron and it seems unlikely that Littlefinger's betrayal is still a secret, I'm guessing the three kingdoms he's thinking of are the Westerlands, the Stormlands, and the Riverlands (even though the last isn't technically one of the seven).

Edited July 17, 2017 by Dev F

[Raachel2008]

25 minutes ago, gbbarb said:

I was tired of Lyanna Mormont last season, she is a Mary Sue character.

I don't think she is a Mary Sue yet, but I definetely think D&D are using Lyanna to be the 'young girl telling white old men to shut up', which is almost a trope at this point. It is like they wanted Tumblr social warriors to have a voice, you know? And I don't mind Lyanna herself, the actress is great, and it is nice that she is a natural born leader and is very comfortable in her role. But it is sort of unbalaced, like everything else in the show; Lyanna can be a great small supporting character, but they are doing no favors to her. Lyanna, like everything else is heavy-handled. I assume, since she is popular, that Lyanna will be around in some capacity. If so, I would love to see her with Alys Karstark, who with her is a young girl, and Ned Umber, who looks like the same age.

I wish Manderly was there. Glover annoys the hell out of me.

26 minutes ago, gbbarb said:

Littlefinger control Robin and Robin controls the army therefore Littlefinger controls the army.   We have no clue if Robin would choose Sansa over Littlefinger and testing that hypothesis could be very dangerous.

Who says Robin has to chose? LF could trip on the steps of one of those stairs in Winterfell or meet a boar somewhere, no need to have him around. He killed Lysa, he put Sansa into Ramsay's bed, there is more than enough to justify an 'accident'. Robin is a Tully and the son of Jon Arryn, his loyalty is to the Starks, his cousins. If LF died, do you think he would just withdraw his troops? I don't.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Raachel2008

[mojoween]

What I find fascinating is all of the kids we've seen grow up you can tell that they are older, but the actress playing Lyanna looks no different from last season.  Why is she not growing up?

[gbbarb]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think she is a Mary Sue, but I definetely think D&D are using Lyanna to be the 'young girl telling white old men to shut up', which is almost a trope at this point. It is like they wanted Tumblr social warriors to have a voice, you know? And I don't mind Lyanna herself, the actress is great, and it is nice that she is a natural born leader and is very comfortable in her role. But it is sort of unbalaced, like everything else in the show; Lyanna can be a great small supporting character, but they are doing no favors to her. Lyanna, like everything else is heavy-handled. I assume, since she is popular, that Lyanna will be around in some capacity. If so, I would love to see her with Alys Karstark, who with her is a young girl, and Ned Umber, who looks like the same age.

I wish Manderly was there. Glover annoys the hell out of me.

Who says Robin has to chose? LF could trip on the steps of one of those stairs in Winterfell or meet a boar somewhere, no need to have him around. He killed Lysa, he put Sansa into Ramsay's bed, there is more than enough to justify an 'accident'. Robin is a Tully and the son of Jon Arryn, his loyalty is to the Starks, his cousins. If LF died, do you think he would just withdraw his troops? I don't.

Where on the show have we seen Robin showing his cares or understands the political picture?   He was raised by a deranged mother who hated her sister who was married to the Starks.  That attitude was probably ingrained in him.   He likes Sansa because LF likes Sansa but that could easily change.  His troops are probably loyal to Starks but Robin is a wild card.  He hasn't shown any great thinking skills, he likes watching people fly to their death.

[screamin]

23 minutes ago, that one guy said:

I had a friend (who was also my boss) who died, it wasn't even a suicide, and I was so, so angry for being left in the lurch. I can remember yelling, "how could you do this to me?" It's not rational, but I understand it and have been there. Killing the King is treason, even if you're the king and it's a suicide. It's a violation of the oath of office and your duty to the Crown in the abstract.

I don't think that Cersei counted Tommen's suicide as treason. I think she considered he betrayed her when he took the Sparrow's side against her and forbade her to prove her 'innocence' in a trial by combat when she had a warrior (DeadMountain) who would be a sure winner in any combat. I think he was dead to her from that moment on (hence her cold reaction to his actual physical death.)

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, mojoween said:

What I find fascinating is all of the kids we've seen grow up you can tell that they are older, but the actress playing Lyanna looks no different from last season.  Why is she not growing up?

Maybe just hasn't hit her growth spurt yet. You have to remember we've been watching the other child actors for 8years (because the pilot was filmed one year before the rest of season one, so 8 years not 7), compared to this actress who've we've only seen in two seasons. 

[stillshimpy]

20 minutes ago, that one guy said:

6 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I was a bit shocked that Cersei viewed Tommen as a traitor though.

I had a friend (who was also my boss) who died, it wasn't even a suicide, and I was so, so angry for being left in the lurch. I can remember yelling, "how could you do this to me?" It's not rational, but I understand it and have been there. Killing the King is treason, even if you're the king and it's a suicide. It's a violation of the oath of office and your duty to the Crown in the abstract.

Also, that was at least a bit of grief-rationalization based on the events Cersei set up.  She already knew "Tommen betrayed us" and she was absolutely trying to save him from the Pyrotechnic proceedings.  She wasn't howling with grief when she asked to be shown Tommen's face but honestly, she's done this twice before and is living out Maggie the Frog's prophecy anyway.  Cersei knows it, at least to a degree.  

But she was planning on having Tommen retain the crown, she just underestimated what it was going to do to Tommen to see her blow up everyone without regard for what it might do to him.  

I agree, she was functioning under "Well, that makes no sense on an intellectual level" type of rationalization but what was she going to say to Jaime instead?  "I didn't realize how lonely and fragile he was and stupidly had him left alone to witness something traumatizing that took away the things he actually did care about, like the Faith.  I took away his wife, no matter how inappropriate she was for him, he was besotted with her,  I took away his Faith because he couldn't see that it was being used against him and I left him alone in the world with me...and in a that room without so much as Ser Pounce to give him comfort to watch what I was about to do..."  

It was call him a traitor or tell Jaime "...I underestimated how fragile he was, didn't realize how alone he felt in the world anyway and was completely insufficient to the task of being a mother because my idea of love is really, really twisted" either because that much self-insight is beyond her or might kill her at this stage.   Cersei and denial, they're likethis when it comes to the emotional apocalypse she has brought about.   She always blames someone else for the death of her children with Tommen she was down to either accepting her rightful share, or putting it all on him. 

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Also, huge props to the actor who played Walder Frey.  What a delight his Arya-as-Walder turn was because of course he played Walder as being ever-so-slightly-not-Walder and with a slightly higher (but not distractingly so) voice.  Man, actors who have the chops are such a source of delight.

He is a great character actor. He was excellent in the first series of Broadchurch and also in some Doctor Who connected thing.  And a Dickens thing - he has been in lots of stuff.

[ParadoxLost]

53 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I think you might be underestimating how much of factor that will be in any retelling of the tale by said Sole Witness.  Please remember, these are the people who can't believe that an Army of the Dead shambles forth, despite shit like legends and dying and....more than the occasional zombie sighting.   I'm not too worried that Westeros CSI is going to draw the conclusion that it was the Starks. 

Jon is consolidating power in the North.  The Starks would be the responsible party even if it hadn't been Arya.  Even if it hadn't been a Northern House.  Even if they had a confession from someone not a Northerner.

[Raachel2008]

34 minutes ago, gbbarb said:

Where on the show have we seen Robin showing his cares or understands the political picture?   He was raised by a deranged mother who hated her sister who was married to the Starks.  That attitude was probably ingrained in him.   He likes Sansa because LF likes Sansa but that could easily change.  His troops are probably loyal to Starks but Robin is a wild card.  He hasn't shown any great thinking skills, he likes watching people fly to their death.

I didn't say he cares, I said that assuming LF has an 'ccident', why would Robin call is troops back? Sansa is family, and like you sid he likes Sansa.  It is just pathethic that LF is around.

[Nanrad]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

This is why she reminded him on that is what Joffery did, he was autocratic in Winterfell , if he keeps going this way and he'll come out on the short end he needs to open up to his close circle, he didn't do it at the wall except Sam, and he sent him away, did the same with other people who believes in him, thus leaving him open to assassination, fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me; should be his motto.

She's trying to protect his ass, they can argue ( privately is best ) but neither can be dismissive of the other's input .

They both have valid points, both of them

To give context, this was referring to Jon being called sexist. My point was: even if a man said the same thing, his position would've been the same.

Futhermore, Jon welcomes feedback, but his decision was final and Sansa kept trying to argue her position. This wasn't a small council meeting, but rather, a gathering filled with various houses, supporters, etc where Jon is telling them how things will be. Her constant challenging makes him look bad because it undermines his authority. She can speak with him, but not during moments like that. Jon has given just about everyone an opportunity to speak their peace about one of his decisions.

sansa isn't trying to protect him, she's trying to punish the houses. If she were, she would've suggested to kill the remaining members of those houses. Stripping them of their lands could've further fueled their anger. 

We've literally seem various people stripped of hair lands later come back to fight for what they believe is theirs. 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Robb and Jon are practically the same age, only months apart, IIRC. 

Yes, I believe Catelyn was pregnant with Robb when Ned left, and then he came back with Jon, so they're very close in age. That was part of why Catelyn hated Jon so much-she was humiliated that her brand new husband (supposedly) fathered a bastard while she was pregnant with their first son. Sansa was next in line, so definitely younger than Jon by a year or two.

42 minutes ago, mojoween said:

What I find fascinating is all of the kids we've seen grow up you can tell that they are older, but the actress playing Lyanna looks no different from last season.  Why is she not growing up?

Probably just the difference in one year of change versus 7-8.

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I didn't say he cares, I said that assuming LF has an 'ccident', why would Robin call is troops back? Sansa is family, and like you sid he likes Sansa.  It is just pathethic that LF is around.

I venture to guess that it would be pretty difficult to engineer an 'accident' against LF. He's engineered enough of the deaths of others to know how to protect himself against such attempts. And if Sansa/Jon/whoever tries and fails, LF will likely give up on winning Sansa's hand and just go nuclear option on her and Jon. It would not be pretty.

[Nanrad]

Also, Ned is said to be so honorable so that added insult to injury.

[vesperholly]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Also, huge props to the actor who played Walder Frey.  What a delight his Arya-as-Walder turn was because of course he played Walder as being ever-so-slightly-not-Walder and with a slightly higher (but not distractingly so) voice.  Man, actors who have the chops are such a source of delight. 

I loved that - and David Bradley was also in Harry Potter. Getting some crossover action!

If you don't already, you need to watch Orphan Black immediately. Tatiana Maslany is so good as the different clones that I forget they're the same actress. Better yet, when she has to play one clone pretending to be another. Truly deserves all the awards.

[stillshimpy]

12 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Jon is consolidating power in the North.  The Starks would be the responsible party even if it hadn't been Arya.  Even if it hadn't been a Northern House.  Even if they had a confession from someone not a Northerner.

Yes, true.  But the other conclusion to draw in the "Pulled off his face" thing with Widow of Walder being the only person not to die and Walder's body being presumably a thing of pies past because Arya had to be pretending to be Walder for a while now to send out all the invitations to "Any Frey that mattered" is that Widow Walder may have done it.  

Again, I really do think -- and I know she doesn't seem that bright -- that Widow of Walder will have to mention that "pulled off his face" part because the serving girls who weren't seen to be dying like flies but who apparently started to flee when they did saw Walder Frey tell them to pour everyone wine, then gave a speech without drinking and then...they ran away because projectile blood vomiting is against OSHA standards and who wouldn't?   Leaving the surviving (and for all we know, knocked up) Widow of Walder Frey to tell a story about someone who then pulled off his face, revealing someone Widow of Walder has never seen who then says "Uh...the North did it."   

She's the only witness.   So, people are either going to believe she did it, or they are going to believe Walder did it OR they will believe that someone can pull off their face which leads them to It was a Faceless Man but I'm not getting the sense from the story that they are all that well known except for whispered legends.  

It could go a variety of ways, but "blame the Starks" for "The North Remembers and Winter Came for them" combined with "how do you explain that the serving girls saw Walder put all of this together and were following his direct orders?"  but blaming the Starks isn't high on the list, when the chief suspect would be....woman who didn't drink the wine. 

That was witnessed by fleeing serving girls, but they saw Walder Frey tell her not to so pretty much, she has to mention "Pulled off his face" and they don't believe in magic any longer, or they certainly don't very easily. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by stillshimpy

[yellowfred]

So, I really liked Arya's storyline this episode.  Having her wipe out all the Freys involved in the Red Wedding was incredibly satisfying (to be clear, my understanding from the speech "Walder" gave was that the people invited to this feast were those directly involved in the Red Wedding, not just whatever Freys she could find on short notice).  Plus, I really liked her scene with the Lannister soldiers.  I thought it was cool to see her feeling them out to see if they were a threat or not, and it was kind of a relief, for me, that they weren't and that she could figure that out.

I also thought that Dani's arrival and "Shall we begin?" was a great way to end the episode.  It definitely gave the feeling that the end game of this whole conflict has finally begun.  I also loved that, after all the squabbling in all the other factions we saw, Dani and her team didn't even need to speak.

I wasn't a huge fan of the pacing this episode, overall.  I felt like Sam's bedpan montage could have been just as effective if it were half as long.  The scene with Euron felt like it dragged on, though that might have had more to do with the fact that I don't find him particularly compelling, as a character.  The stuff at Winterfell, on the other hand, felt like it could have used more room to breathe.  Same thing with the confrontation between Cersei and Jaime.  

Regarding the Sansa/Jon argument, I'm actually more bothered by the writing than how either of them behaved.  Like, I don't think Sansa was setting out to undermine him, but I still think she should have let it go sooner than she did.  At the same time, I'm sure it's frustrating for her to be sidelined by Jon and, after everything she's been through, I can understand her not wanting to feel powerless again.  At the same time, while I get that Jon is focused on the big war, he should understand better than most how petty conflicts can end up derailing that effort.  Plus, his ending the argument by saying that he's the King and it's his decision felt odd, coming from him, and it has got to be a red flag for her.  

That being said, I do think Jon made the right call, given who the actual players are (there's a pretty slim chance that either of those children had any say in their respective houses decision to betray the Starks, and there doesn't seem to be anyone whose loyalty needs to be solidified by giving them an extra hold).  Still, he would have been wise to discuss that decision with Sansa ahead of time, if only so that they could present a united front for the other lords.  

I felt that the whole thing was set up really strangely, though.  Like, why would Alys and Ned be there if Jon wasn't already planning on having them swear their loyalty?  And, if that was the plan, how did Sansa not know about it ahead of time, so that she wouldn't say that thing about giving their holds to other families in the first place?  Plus, it kind of irks me that Alys didn't get to be a bit more active in the decision, the way that she is in the books.  

I also agree with those who've said that Sansa has felt out of character for a while.  Like, I've more or less accepted that they've decided to have her go in a darker direction than her book counterpart, especially post-Ramsey, but her whole deal was supposed to be that she was careful with her words and more politically savvy than her siblings.  If she's going to be (in my opinion) uncharacteristically callous, there's no reason for to also be (in my opinion) uncharacteristically clumsy about it.

Edited July 17, 2017 by yellowfred

[Statman]

1 minute ago, yellowfred said:

I also agree with those who've said that Sansa has felt out of character for a while.  Like, I've more or less accepted that they've decided to have her go in a darker direction than her book counterpart, especially post-Ramsey, but her whole deal was supposed to be that she was careful with her words and more politically savvy than her siblings.  If she's going to be (in my opinion) uncharacteristically callous, there's no reason for to also be (in my opinion) uncharacteristically clumsy about it.

I do agree that Sansa is acting a bit out of character, but my belief is that she's hopefully playing a long con to get Littlefinger to show his true colors.  It was just strange to me that she went from chastising Jon to praising him as an effective leader so quickly.  

That coupled with her line about knowing what Littlefinger wants makes be think that she's simply baiting him into do something stupid, thus giving her a reason to get rid of him once and for all, but after she has extracted some usefulness from him.  

[stillshimpy]

Sidenote of nothing important to the episode but which I cannot get out of my head:  Hey guys, was the impact of that "Here comes the badass Greyjoy Armada (built in record time or comprised of not their best ships) " somewhat spoiled by the way their Sigil looked in full sail for anyone else?  

It looked like a bunch of infuriated uteruses were coming to conquer the land.  All hail the scary Fallopian tube.  Rare fail on the part of the art department who has managed to make a variety of crowns look cool(ish...nothing was helping the driftwood crown seeming anything other than...."wait, what the fuck do you guys actually build your ships from as there isn't a tree in sight and apparently you're making crowns out of actual trash".   

I honestly had no idea what that was supposed to be for a moment or two and wondered who the hell was under sail of the Reproductive Chart.  

Edited July 17, 2017 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

1 minute ago, stillshimpy said:

It looked like a bunch of infuriated uteruses were coming to conquer the land.  All hail the scary Fallopian tube.  Rare fail on the part of the art department who has managed to make a variety of crowns look cool(ish...nothing was helping the driftwood crown seeming anything other than...."wait, what the fuck do you guys actually build your ships from as there isn't a tree in sight and apparently you're making crowns out of actual trash".   

Thank you, I actually laughed out loud at that comment.  I didn't notice the sigil, but I did notice the awful animation for the ships.  They moved like steel hulled warships plowing through the waves rather than wooden sailing ships.

[Alapaki]

I apologize if I missed mention of this upthread, and maybe it got lost in everything else that went on . . . but 

In Bran's vision of the White Walkers, did we see a Zombie Wun-Wun?  

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Demonstrably not.  She didn't say, "Tell them that Arya Stark forever closed all of their eyes"  she said, "Tell them The North Remembered, tell them Winter Came for them" she did not stand up there with a bullhorn and a calling card.   She did something that proved she was a Faceless Man (universal sense, not gender-specific) and then proclaimed herself winter.  

She didn't tell Frey's widow anything else.  That's why Cersei doesn't know what killed all the Freys.   That's why she doesn't know she's next on "Winter"'s list.  

But I think that proclaiming the North remembers and Winter has Come proclaimed her as an agent of the North, and even specifically the Starks, or at least invoking their memory. I think what she did was far from the Faceless Man creedo of being a neutral arbiter of death. Arya was acting supremely as Arya Stark in that moment. Mayhaps the Winter and North comments were overlooked or not conveyed properly. I think Jaime said 'we don't know what happened', not 'we don't know why it happened'.

[piequinn35]

8 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I apologize if I missed mention of this upthread, and maybe it got lost in everything else that went on . . . but 

In Bran's vision of the White Walkers, did we see a Zombie Wun-Wun?  

Yeah, it looked like Wun wun but he died in Winterfell, could be another giant.

[Nanrad]

Isn't this conversation about whether or not this can be traced to arya? Don't most people believe she's dead or don't even know what she looks like. Granted she had stark traits.

[stillshimpy]

12 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

But I think that proclaiming the North remembers and Winter has Come proclaimed her as an agent of the North, and even specifically the Starks, or at least invoking their memory. I think what she did was far from the Faceless Man creedo of being a neutral arbiter of death. Arya was acting supremely as Arya Stark in that moment. Mayhaps the Winter and North comments were overlooked or not conveyed properly. I think Jaime said 'we don't know what happened', not 'we don't know why it happened'.

Arya hasn't been seen since she was nine-years-old and in King's Landing.    Why do you think that Walder Frey's widow would recognize her?  Again...face...pulled...off.   That's part of the story Walder's Widow has to tell.  

I'm just going to leave this lie because I've made the point before but as that is essentially the only avenue open to Walder Frey's widow in explaining that everyone else who survived saw Walder Frey say those things, there isn't  a lot of she can do other than mention a slight oddity in the facial region.   So even though it's against what the Faceless Men are supposed to be the most they can conclude is that someone avenged them via the Faceless Men and that's predicated on believing this woman's account that will involve things with faces that will make her sound crazy, if she's not believed (hence the "we don't know what happened" because that's a crazy tale to have to tell and they seem to assume "something happened, but we know it wasn't that because....crazy tale.) 

If they believe her the evidence points toward Faceless Man.  The last hope of the powerless.   No one knows Arya is a Faceless Man and Walder Frey's widow doesn't know what she looks like.   So if they believe in the credo of the Faceless Men then that takes the Starks (who are not powerless, just hurting for certain) out of the likely "Wonder who hired them"?  Or if it's anyone who can pay, again, they are located in Bravos.    

Edited July 18, 2017 by stillshimpy

[J----av]

7 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Jon's not an idiot, can't fault a person for trying to save his little brother, I don't think even Sansa would think Ramsey save Rickon to set the trap, especially after seeing Shaggy's head.

 

 AFTER he failed to save his brother is when he charged by himself straight into a charging army and thousands of arrows (how did he not die?) forcing his men to be funneled right into Ramsays trap. Jon got emotional and took the bait just like Sansa told him not to do. Jon is brave, Jon knows about the WW and knows something needs to be done, but Jon has never shown to be a very good leader or very smart. What he did in the battle of the bastards was brave, but REALLY foolish

[GrailKing]

28 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

To give context, this was referring to Jon being called sexist. My point was: even if a man said the same thing, his position would've been the same.

Futhermore, Jon welcomes feedback, but his decision was final and Sansa kept trying to argue her position. This wasn't a small council meeting, but rather, a gathering filled with various houses, supporters, etc where Jon is telling them how things will be. Her constant challenging makes him look bad because it undermines his authority. She can speak with him, but not during moments like that. Jon has given just about everyone an opportunity to speak their peace about one of his decisions.

sansa isn't trying to protect him, she's trying to punish the houses. If she were, she would've suggested to kill the remaining members of those houses. Stripping them of their lands could've further fueled their anger. 

We've literally seem various people stripped of hair lands later come back to fight for what they believe is theirs. 

No, that was someone else 5 paragraphs down, mine is replying to you replying to Sean C on Jon being  upset with Sansa questioning him in front of the other houses and you saying it's totally her fault, my rebuttal is still the same. Jon did not talk things over for other ideas, Sansa did not say they should die, only that they loose the title to the lands and reward the loyalty he also could have said until they come of age and prove loyalty have be wards of Winterfell or another loyal house. Jon hasn't learn to trust others with another opinion and bring forth why he thinks his is best or the only one that matters, it got him killed once.

The only thing Sansa did though she had a right to was making it public, but Jon forced that by being a bit autocratic.

As far as sexist well if we are using history as the barometer then for that time and to modern definitions  he was, he came across that way to some people because he basically said her idea is wrong or didn't matter because he's the King, what he is forgetting is the King really has no home, no lands at the moment and no matter what decisions  he makes Sansa has the right to know before he brings them for voting, until Bran returns it's her house.

We have seen also people granted clemency and still betray people, it cuts both ways.

Most if not all of this could be avoided if he brought his plan out before he called the houses.

There is no clear cut right or wrong here.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, J----av said:

 

 AFTER he failed to save his brother is when he charged by himself straight into a charging army and thousands of arrows (how did he not die?) forcing his men to be funneled right into Ramsays trap. Jon got emotional and took the bait just like Sansa told him not to do. Jon is brave, Jon knows about the WW and knows something needs to be done, but Jon has never shown to be a very good leader or very smart. What he did in the battle of the bastards was brave, but REALLY foolish

It was foolish, but understandable, as I said in other threads, if Sansa was there and it was she instead of Tormund saying "don't'"the majority of the people would have labeled her a cold bitch who wants her siblings dead so she get Winterfell, instead of saying she made the tough but proper decision.

[Gertrude]

15 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Arya hasn't been seen since she was nine-years-old and in King's Landing.    Why do you think that Walder Frey's widow would recognize her?  Again...face...pulled...off.   That's part of the story Walder's Widow has to tell.
 

Ah, I think I misunderstood what you were saying. No, I don't believe anyone would have recognized that the Faceless Man was specifically Arya. To all appearances it was a FM hit if anyone can recognize the signs. I was thinking more along the lines or Arya's character development and how she's not remotely a true Faceless Man as we understand the concept, but yes, she is playing the part of a Faceless Man.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

I venture to guess that it would be pretty difficult to engineer an 'accident' against LF. He's engineered enough of the deaths of others to know how to protect himself against such attempts. And if Sansa/Jon/whoever tries and fails, LF will likely give up on winning Sansa's hand and just go nuclear option on her and Jon. It would not be pretty.

As King of the North, Jon can easily replace Littlefinger as Robin's Regent or he can kill Littlefinger and that would be the end of. Littlefinger is only alive because he adds tension to Jon and Sansa's story.

[Francie]

 On rewatch, I have this strange feeling about Arya. I think she killed those Lannister soldiers, after all. 

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yes, it's incredibly tiresome, especially when the show seemed to be making the point that they were both somewhat right and both somewhat wrong. I believe the idea is that they need to learn to trust each other and combine the wisdom of their very different experiences to handle their various enemies.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm looking forward to Jon heading for Dragonstone so we can stop going round and round in circles about every Jon/Sansa scene.

I think this is a big source of the inconsistent writing for Sansa; they haven't figured out what motivates her now. She has everything she previously wanted-to be home, to be safe, to get revenge on Ramsey-and yet she is dissatisfied and craving something else. Is it just power? Respect? Fealty? One would think that being Lady of Winterfell and having a seat at the King in the North's right hand would be enough to satisfy that. But they want to create some tension, I guess. 

It's what happens when they took her out of her arc of running a house and gaining control of Robyn and shoe horn her into Jeyne Poole's role, because they wanted more emotional outcry from the public and fans.

Now the writers are trying to have it make total sense, which will not be totally believable. 

[J----av]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

It was foolish, but understandable, as I said in other threads, if Sansa was there and it was she instead of Tormund saying "don't'"the majority of the people would have labeled her a cold bitch who wants her siblings dead so she get Winterfell, instead of saying she made the tough but proper decision.

 Tormund said "don't" after Rickon was already shot. He was saying "don't" because he didn't want Jon stupidly charging at Ramsays men himself AFTER Rickon was already dead. How would that make Sansa a cold bitch for NOT wanting Jon to charge at Ramsay by himself and get himself killed and force his men into Ramsays trap? Jon made an emotional decision AFTER Rickon died and was basically committing suicide (thank god for plot armor). Things like that is why Jon is a bad leader. Rickon was dead, there was nothing more he could have done. He should have rode back to his men and followed the plan instead of leading his men into a trap and getting thousands killed

 

 Then there is the whole Sansa not telling about the Vale that hot thousands killed. Niether Jon or Sansa should be running an army or ruling the North. I am curious what they will do with Bran back now since he is the true heir to Winterfell

[Skeeter22]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

As King of the North, Jon can easily replace Littlefinger as Robin's Regent or he can kill Littlefinger and that would be the end of. Littlefinger is only alive because he adds tension to Jon and Sansa's story.

The Vale isn't part of the North. Jon has no power to interfere with Robin's regency. The Vale is allied with the North through Sansa. 

[Colorful Mess]

I give this ep a 7/10. My husband went even lower, a 6/10. We both thought it a typical talky GoT ep that jumped around and still felt like there were a TON of characters and places even after so many deaths. And, annoyingly, we're back to plot dictating character decisions too (i.e. SAM NEEDS TO TELL JON STUFF, THEREFORE SAM IS DETERMINED TO GAIN ACCESS TO EXCLUSIVE CONTENT!). TYPICAL of this show, I know but it still grates. 

Actually liked the Sam scenes and the montage was hilarious - hubby and I are both academics and could relate (at least metaphorically) to doing dirty work to level up in the ivory tower. The monotony is real. 

Did anyone think it was weird how quickly those Karstark kids whipped out their swords to swear fealty to Jon? Does every kid of a minor house in Westeros get lessons in how its done? I thought it would be been a bit more realistic if someone had to nudge them to remind them what to do. I mean, Sansa who is supposedly the expert on courtly manners, couldn't even remember the oath of fealty for Brienne last season. 

Euron's use of the word "nation" felt anachronistic to me. No one has used that term in-show before, and I dont think we're at the point where Westeros is a nation-state yet (sorry, I'm a stickler for accurate political terms!!)

Also that Dany scene at the end totally should have been the last scene of Season 6. Just sayin'.

My favorite scene of the night was Tormund's gloating about manning castles on the Wall and everyone of the Lords looking irritated as heck.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[Raachel2008]

22 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Jon hasn't learn to trust others with another opinion and bring forth why he thinks his is best or the only one that matter

Actually he does trust others, he trusted even people who killed him, and we've seen he trusts Tormund and Davos. Maybe he doesn't trust Sansa as much because she didn't tell, you know, about the Vale. But I'm not saying he doesn't trust her, what I'm saying is that Jon trusts people.

 

27 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

what he is forgetting is the King really has no home, no lands at the moment and no matter what decisions  he makes Sansa has the right to know before he brings them for voting, until Bran returns it's her house.

He does not have a home? Sure he does. Winterfell is home. The Lords 'elected' him King because they recognized him as a Stark, thus it is his home.

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

As King of the North, Jon can easily replace Littlefinger as Robin's Regent or he can kill Littlefinger and that would be the end of. Littlefinger is only alive because he adds tension to Jon and Sansa's story

Or that. I just think it is ridiculous that LF is still around,

[Nanrad]

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

No, that was someone else 5 paragraphs down, mine is replying to you replying to Sean C on Jon being  upset with Sansa questioning him in front of the other houses and you saying it's totally her fault, my rebuttal is still the same. Jon did not talk things over for other ideas, Sansa did not say they should die, only that they loose the title to the lands and reward the loyalty he also could have said until they come of age and prove loyalty have be wards of Winterfell or another loyal house. Jon hasn't learn to trust others with another opinion and bring forth why he thinks his is best or the only one that matters, it got him killed once.

The only thing Sansa did though she had a right to was making it public, but Jon forced that by being a bit autocratic.

As far as sexist well if we are using history as the barometer then for that time and to modern definitions  he was, he came across that way to some people because he basically said her idea is wrong or didn't matter because he's the King, what he is forgetting is the King really has no home, no lands at the moment and no matter what decisions  he makes Sansa has the right to know before he brings them for voting, until Bran returns it's her house.

We have seen also people granted clemency and still betray people, it cuts both ways.

Most if not all of this could be avoided if he brought his plan out before he called the houses.

There is no clear cut right or wrong here.

In this case he didn't, but she does have opportunities to come to him outside of meetings. I honestly don't believe that Jon, let some any king, would like having their decisions questioned after they've made a final decision. This wasn't an open forum. BUT, Jon is open to suggestions and input outside of those times.

we have to keep in mind that the politics of the all is very different than the north. Jon was also on peoples shit list because of the Wildlings as well as the fact that he was elected at all. They were looking for reasons to get rid of him. It is different in the north. 

Did she have a right tho?

in order to prove he's sexist, you have to prove his actions were based upon her gender. Where is the evidence of this. He's done this same thing to men before. It's only sexist because people aren't protective of Sansa. And what rights does Sansa has me why does Jon need to confer to her first???

yes, we have, we've seen it cut both ways, but in jons situation, it makes more sense to do what he decided.

no, most could be avoided if Sansa went to Jon and asked, "what do you plan on discussing in this upcoming meeting?"

[Snowball II]

Apologies if this has already been brought up, but how did Dany's dragons fly all the way across the Narrow Sea without resting on anything?  Are the ships big enough for them to drop down on if they feel like taking a nap?  I know this is a stupid question, but I would like an answer.

[ParadoxLost]

16 minutes ago, J----av said:

Then there is the whole Sansa not telling about the Vale that got thousands killed. Niether Jon or Sansa should be running an army or ruling the North.

But that was a tactic.  She (likely with LF's counsel) used Jon's army to bait her trap and win the battle.  It wasn't a failure to communicate with Jon that got thousands killed.  She didn't tell Jon because she didn't believe he would use his men as cannon fodder and that he didn't deserve a say.

3 minutes ago, Hrairoo said:

Apologies if this has already been brought up, but how did Dany's dragons fly all the way across the Narrow Sea without resting on anything?  Are the ships big enough for them to drop down on if they feel like taking a nap?  I know this is a stupid question, but I would like an answer.

The Sea is narrow?  Lets go with its littered with small islands.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ParadoxLost