S03.E08: Who Rules the Land of Denial?

[Pannekoeker]

8 hours ago, Razzberry said:

We finally get the dreaded scene of Varga on the toilet.  I'm just thankful it was sans sound effects.

Hahahah we got the sound effects in S1 with Malvo

[Pannekoeker]

8 hours ago, becauseIsaidso said:

I really thought Nikki and Wrench were dead (AFTER I got over wishing all kinds of hell on anyone who could have even thought of doing something evil/nasty/gross to that kitten) until I saw them get into a green VW - the color did not seem to indicate death, altho both of them MUST have been close to demise after all that injury and exposure to the elements, so I am still hopeful they/or at least Nikki are/is alive....but, seeing Yuri, at the bar, with blood still running down his neck, I became hopeful that the bowling alley was the transition place - maybe purgatory - where there is still a chance for a soul who has a possibility of redemption. This was the first time I actually believed Nikki was not just using Ray, and I had always had a less than horrible impression of Wrench, so I like to think they got a second chance - which is not to say they will be successful, but at least it is there for them, another chance at making the right choice. I really liked this episode.

Wrench has some standards, like the fact he believes that every town should have a library and is willing to make a fuss about it once they don't!

[Macbeth]

I enjoyed the bowling alley, especially the reincarnation of Ray as a little kitty.  Ray just snuggled right into Nikki's neck. 

After all that carnage - I appreciated the kitty porn.

[cardigirl]

Well, I really enjoyed this episode. I was glad to see Ray Wise again. The action/escape sequence was wonderfully horror-filled. I found myself exhorting Mr. Wrench and Nikki to "kill them! Kill them!" 

I'm not sure if the bowling alley was some sort of fever dream brought on by her physical state? Initially I thought we might be seeing Nikki's mind while she's in some place dying or recovering, but then Yuri shows up in the same place, so I'm not sure what that was. It seemed to me that the injuries she and Mr. Wrench suffered were too great for them to have been able to sip whiskey and then drive away. 

If it was purgatory, shouldn't she have been cleaned up? Like shouldn't the blood have been gone, a la "It's a Wonderful Life"?

I read that the actor who plays Mr. Wrench is deaf IRL, and that he and Mary Elizabeth had to work out their own communication  during those scenes, which I found to be wonderful. 

Loved the Christmas scene with Gloria and her son and the gift of socks. I do that with my own kids. It's a tradition to get socks for Christmas. But there was not enough Burgle in this episode. 

Good riddance Sy. Sorry, still not a fan of that character. 

Only two episodes left. Can they possibly tie this all up in a resolution by then? Fingers crossed! 

[rose711]

Well, I really enjoyed this episode. I was glad to see Ray Wise again. The action/escape sequence was wonderfully horror-filled. I found myself exhorting Mr. Wrench and Nikki to "kill them! Kill them!" 

I'm not sure if the bowling alley was some sort of fever dream brought on by her physical state? Initially I thought we might be seeing Nikki's mind while she's in some place dying or recovering, but then Yuri shows up in the same place, so I'm not sure what that was. It seemed to me that the injuries she and Mr. Wrench suffered were too great for them to have been able to sip whiskey and then drive away. 

If it was purgatory, shouldn't she have been cleaned up? Like shouldn't the blood have been gone, a la "It's a Wonderful Life"?

I read that the actor who plays Mr. Wrench is deaf IRL, and that he and Mary Elizabeth had to work out their own communication  during those scenes, which I found to be wonderful. 

Loved the Christmas scene with Gloria and her son and the gift of socks. I do that with my own kids. It's a tradition to get socks for Christmas. But there was not enough Burgle in this episode. 

Good riddance Sy. Sorry, still not a fan of that character. 

Only two episodes left. Can they possibly tie this all up in a resolution by then? Fingers crossed! 

Interesting. I thought the socks were just a sign of how much this kids life is completely bad.

[AngelKitty]

I loved The Reaper show, was disappointed when it was cancelled. So I always see Ray Wise as slightly evil. He was also on Young and the Restless, played an evil person and actually dressed up as the devil for a Halloween party, then burned the building down.

As for this episode I didn't realize the bowling ally wasn't a real place until Yuri came in and the bartender didn't say anything about all the blood.

I'm not fond of all the vomit and peeing.

[benteen]

9 hours ago, rose711 said:

What would Sy do with a gun? I don't understand. If he shoots one of them, the others will go after him and they are trained professional killers. If he shots them and escapes successfully, what will he tell the cops?
Sy should have taken his money and run while he had the chance. Maybe right after he abandoned Nikki in the snow.

Because he's been threatened and intimidated by Varga and his goons almost every time they've been together.  They took over his business and made him drink his own piss.  It's about time Sy did something to protect himself and regain some of his own power instead of just meekly submitting to whatever threats and humiliations Varga has in store for him.  Especially if he's not going to take the money and run.

Edited June 9, 2017 by benteen

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Because he's been threatened and intimidated by Varga and his goons almost every time they've been together.  They took over his business and made him drink his own piss.  It's about time Sy did something to protect himself and regain some of his own power instead of just meekly submitting to whatever threats and humiliations Varga has in store for him.  Especially if he's not going to take the money and run.

 

It wasn't his piss, it was water in a cup after Varga rubbed his penis around it. 

[cardigirl]

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/fargo-remains-the-best-most-inexplicable-show-on-tv-1795943834

My apologies if this link was already referenced, but I enjoyed his take on this season.

[AzureOwl]

11 hours ago, Stratego said:

"The Boss" is a sheriff, an elected "top cop" of the county.  Eden Valley eliminated its municipal police force and opted (paid) for service from the county.  Gloria and (dimwit) were absorbed into the county PD as deputies.

I will never understand that habit they have in the US of filling civil service offices with elected officials. 

[AzureOwl]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

If it was purgatory, shouldn't she have been cleaned up? Like shouldn't the blood have been gone, a la "It's a Wonderful Life"?

Not necessarily. People arriving at the afterlife looking exactly as they did at the moment of death is a normal trope in movies and TV. 

And if Paul intended to send them back to the mortal world in short order, there really is no reason to do more than patch up their wounds and send them on their way.

[roughing it]

20 hours ago, Magic said:

The confusing thing to me was that while I realize her fellow deputy is not the sharpest tool in the shed, wouldn't he have quit calling her chief by that time?  So I thought it was Dec. 31st, her last day of being chief, so he had not yet gotten used to not calling her chief.  And if it was Dec. 31 then that caused the bearded Sy hospital scene in 2011 to also confuse me as to the time frame.  Thanks to this forum for helping me to keep things straight.

In Sy's hospital room, the nurse wrote on the white board above his bed, and the date written was March ___, 2011.  I don't remember the exact day, but it was March 2011.  They did a 3 month time jump after the Nikki/Mr. Wrench adventure.

[meep.meep]

6 hours ago, rose711 said:

Interesting. I thought the socks were just a sign of how much this kids life is completely bad.

Me too.  In my family, getting socks for Christmas is a threat.  Socks and underwear.

 

2 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

I will never understand that habit they have in the US of filling civil service offices with elected officials. 

It's so that there is a direct representative of the people/voters to make sure that the civil servants are doing what they are supposed to do.  The elected sheriff supervises the county employees in his/her department.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

On Fargo, Nikki Encounters Two Rays Of Hope

But are they too late to help her in this world?

[rose711]

  14 hours ago, rose711 said:

What would Sy do with a gun? I don't understand. If he shoots one of them, the others will go after him and they are trained professional killers. If he shots them and escapes successfully, what will he tell the cops?
Sy should have taken his money and run while he had the chance. Maybe right after he abandoned Nikki in the snow.

Because he's been threatened and intimidated by Varga and his goons almost every time they've been together.  They took over his business and made him drink his own piss.  It's about time Sy did something to protect himself and regain some of his own power instead of just meekly submitting to whatever threats and humiliations Varga has in store for him.  Especially if he's not going to take the money and run.

I think Sy is legitimately too afraid of repercussions.

[AzureOwl]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

It's so that there is a direct representative of the people/voters to make sure that the civil servants are doing what they are supposed to do.  The elected sheriff supervises the county employees in his/her department.

Then appoint an elected commissioner to oversee the department. But the person in charge of actually running things should be a qualified profesional who can be fired in the event of incompetence or malfeasance, without having to wait until the next election.  

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Me too.  In my family, getting socks for Christmas is a threat.  Socks and underwear.

 

I don't know if it's a midwesterner thing, but we always got great socks and underwear for Christmas.  I used to tease my kids about only getting socks and underwear, but as they got older they told me they looked forward to getting them because they didn't want to spend their own money on stuff like that.

Perhaps we're a weird family.  

[Bort]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Perhaps we're a weird family.

It's more like life going like this:

[rur]

I thought the socks from Santa indicated that Gloria didn't have a lot of money to spare. Santa couldn't afford to give him something frivolous when there were things that he needed. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by rur

[AllyS]

10 hours ago, rose711 said:

Interesting. I thought the socks were just a sign of how much this kids life is completely bad.

Yes! This! I realize she's 'technologically" challenged but couldn't one of the Dads buy the kid a Play Station or an X-Box? I love how after the son opened the socks, the boyfriend/significant other goes to check on the "ragu" while Gloria asks him "Are You having a good Christmas?" Then the phone rings! Poor kid...socks, divorcing parents and Mom is called away...Merry Xmas!

[AuntiePam]

Just socks?  My take on the Burgle Christmas was that the son got more than just socks.  Even if Gloria is broke (after paying for the LA trip?), the dad would have come up with something. 

I'd like to know how Emmit managed to get out from under Varga's nose and make his way to the police station.  Also curious about why Sy was poisoned.  The $5 million "bonus" -- was that a lie intended to keep him calm? 

[Gobi]

I'm leaning towards Nikki and Wrench being alive (sent back to earth from purgatory; is purgatory also a Jewish concept?). Yuri, on the other hand, I think is dead. It was mentioned in the March scenes, three months after the bus ambush, that he had never returned. Was there any mention of DJ Qualles body being found? If there was, I missed it.

[Cthulhudrew]

9 hours ago, cardigirl said:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/fargo-remains-the-best-most-inexplicable-show-on-tv-1795943834

My apologies if this link was already referenced, but I enjoyed his take on this season.

I'm having a hard time getting past the first sentence of the article.

Quote

The three seasons of Fargo do not share any of the same characters, timelines, or even locales.

[Gobi]

11 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I'm having a hard time getting past the first sentence of the article.

Pretty strange, since he mentions later in the article that Mr. Wrench is a returning character from season one.

[cardigirl]

I think until Mr. Wrench showed up the shows didn't have any of the same actors playing the same characters. We had one character as her younger self and her father in season 2. Locale, well, Minnesota, big state, I don't think they were all three the same police department. 

[welcomerain]

  15 hours ago, cardigirl said:

If it was purgatory, shouldn't she have been cleaned up? Like shouldn't the blood have been gone, a la "It's a Wonderful Life"?

Not necessarily. People arriving at the afterlife looking exactly as they did at the moment of death is a normal trope in movies and TV. 

And if Paul intended to send them back to the mortal world in short order, there really is no reason to do more than patch up their wounds and send them on their way.

I want to see Gus Fring's entrance into the afterlife, in that case.

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, Gobi said:

Pretty strange, since he mentions later in the article that Mr. Wrench is a returning character from season one.

Yeah, I keep parsing it and the best I can think is that he intended the unwritten addendum "do not share any of the same characters (etc.)... as the movie." 

[AuntiePam]

13 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Yeah, I keep parsing it and the best I can think is that he intended the unwritten addendum "do not share any of the same characters (etc.)... as the movie." 

You could be right.  I think cardigirl's interpretation works too -- that there are no recurring characters played by the same actor.  Except for Mr. Wrench, and he's not a regular.  But yeah, that first sentence of the review threw me too. 

Locales -- at least four states -- Minnesota, North and South Dakota, and Kansas.   

[Shriekingeel]

But the series is connected to the movie. We know that in Season 1, Stavros Milos/Oliver Platt's seed money for his fortune was the lost ransom money from the movie that the Steve Buscemi character stupidly buried in the snow. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Shriekingeel

[knaankos]

On June 7, 2017 at 11:59 PM, MissBluxom said:

 

It was a great episode. My only criticism was there was way too much time spent watching Nikki and Mr. Wrench trudging through the forest. I thought they could have advanced the story just as clearly and only spent about 20 percent of the time trudging. Spending ten minutes watching them trudge didn't do anything for the plot.

 

No way. That was the best part of the episode. That hunt scene was perhaps the best scene in all of the Fargo seasons. Why would you want a reduce in time and completely kill the mood of the best scene? Not every little thing has to directly advance the plot. There's a certain art in scene building that I am glad they did not ignore in that scene.

 

Rest of the episode was borderline garbage

Edited June 10, 2017 by knaankos

[rose711]

  On 6/8/2017 at 1:59 AM, MissBluxom said:

 

It was a great episode. My only criticism was there was way too much time spent watching Nikki and Mr. Wrench trudging through the forest. I thought they could have advanced the story just as clearly and only spent about 20 percent of the time trudging. Spending ten minutes watching them trudge didn't do anything for the plot.

 

No way. That was the best part of the episode. That hunt scene was perhaps the best scene in all of the Fargo seasons. Why would you want a reduce in time and completely kill the mood of the best scene? Not every little thing has to directly advance the plot. There's a certain art in scene building that I am glad they did not ignore in that scene.

 

Rest of the episode was borderline garbage

I liked all of the episode but then I like show where unexplained stuff happens- they don't have to show them hallucinating about rescue/ being in purgatory between life and death , we understand that is what it is. Although it's pretty clear that Nikki and Mr. Wrench get away, even if not through divine intervention, which I think is the main point. Plus they got to throw in more references to the conflict between Jews and the Russians, which brings to mind certain hacking events related to the US election.

[rhys]

I thought the coffee mug that Sy drank from was full of Varga's pee.

[UncleChuck]

I've been giving some thought to why Season 3 seems different from the original movie and the previous tv seasons.  In the past, the central characters (Jerry Lundegaard, Lester Nygaard, Peggy and her butcher, the Gearhardts) were all flawed persons who committed an evil and/or very stupid act, and then spiraled deeper and deeper into a pit of misery and death, aided by mysterious outside forces (the bungling movie kidnappers, Malvo, Mike Milligan and the KC Mob).   Jerry hired guys to kidnap his wife, Lester killed his wife, Peggy ran over Rye Gearhardt and covered it up.  For me much of the mystique of "Fargo" has been watching these hapless amateurs careening to a point beyond redemption that began with a VERY BAD choice that they freely made.  Bad things happened, but they brought it upon themselves.

With Season 3, none of the central characters began with an evil or stupid act.  If the entire season followed Ray's descent into the depths because he hired that ridiculous thief to steal the Stamp, it would have been more Fargo-esque.  But Ray is gone now, and this story was never really about him anyway.  Nikki also, did nothing to initiate or assist her misfortune.  Sure, she killed a guy with an air conditioner, but that had no bearing on anything that followed.  She's just another Fargo patsy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Emmit (and even Sy) are not evil either.  They are just businessmen who made a deal that they learned to regret.  They were not attempting any underhanded or illegal scheme.  They simply borrowed money (with full intent to repay with interest) from the wrong guy. 

Emmit killed Ray, but that accidental death was the result of Emmit attempting to do the right thing and give Ray that Stamp.  Sy never had a moment with Varga or his goons where I thought "Oh, crap.  Now he's done it!" 

It wouldn't be Fargo at all without bodies everywhere and blood in the snow, but this season seems all about despicable Varga and the noose of evil he is tightening around Emmit's neck.  Emmit doesn't deserve this fate, and all of the others (Ray, Nikki, Sy) are no more deserving of their fates than those poor folks that Yuri and his henchmen left in the woods. 

[welcomerain]

Gloria's attempt at an investigation ended exactly as I thought it would: Failure, demotion, scriptwriter ex machina.

Since she's the designated Brave Heroine, we're supposed to admire her chutzpah or something, but all I can think is how both she and Moe did everything wrong. She made a point of sassing him in the open, and proceeded to disregard everything he said, this man who was going to be her boss in much less time than it'd take to close such a case. He was probably right to prevent her from leading the investigation into her own stepfather's death or any related crimes, but he could have taken advantage of her initiative and energy and kept her on the reservation. Neither of them had the sense not to lock horns, and if it weren't for some heyoka or another playing some tricks for the greater good, Emmit might have gotten away with it.

Ray Wise is the merriest devil and the grimmest angel. I love him with a love beyond love.

[welcomerain]

I've been giving some thought to why Season 3 seems different from the original movie and the previous tv seasons.  In the past, the central characters (Jerry Lundegaard, Lester Nygaard, Peggy and her butcher, the Gearhardts) were all flawed persons who committed an evil and/or very stupid act, and then spiraled deeper and deeper into a pit of misery and death, aided by mysterious outside forces (the bungling movie kidnappers, Malvo, Mike Milligan and the KC Mob).   Jerry hired guys to kidnap his wife, Lester killed his wife, Peggy ran over Rye Gearhardt and covered it up.  For me much of the mystique of "Fargo" has been watching these hapless amateurs careening to a point beyond redemption that began with a VERY BAD choice that they freely made.  Bad things happened, but they brought it upon themselves.

With Season 3, none of the central characters began with an evil or stupid act.  If the entire season followed Ray's descent into the depths because he hired that ridiculous thief to steal the Stamp, it would have been more Fargo-esque.  But Ray is gone now, and this story was never really about him anyway.  Nikki also, did nothing to initiate or assist her misfortune.  Sure, she killed a guy with an air conditioner, but that had no bearing on anything that followed.  She's just another Fargo patsy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Emmit (and even Sy) are not evil either.  They are just businessmen who made a deal that they learned to regret.  They were not attempting any underhanded or illegal scheme.  They simply borrowed money (with full intent to repay with interest) from the wrong guy. 

Emmit killed Ray, but that accidental death was the result of Emmit attempting to do the right thing and give Ray that Stamp.  Sy never had a moment with Varga or his goons where I thought "Oh, crap.  Now he's done it!" 

It wouldn't be Fargo at all without bodies everywhere and blood in the snow, but this season seems all about despicable Varga and the noose of evil he is tightening around Emmit's neck.  Emmit doesn't deserve this fate, and all of the others (Ray, Nikki, Sy) are no more deserving of their fates than those poor folks that Yuri and his henchmen left in the woods. 

Well put. That's why I liked Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels much more than I liked Snatch. In the former, the protagonists played an active role in events. In the latter, they were at best spectators.

[ghoulina]

4 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

I've been giving some thought to why Season 3 seems different from the original movie and the previous tv seasons.  In the past, the central characters (Jerry Lundegaard, Lester Nygaard, Peggy and her butcher, the Gearhardts) were all flawed persons who committed an evil and/or very stupid act, and then spiraled deeper and deeper into a pit of misery and death, aided by mysterious outside forces (the bungling movie kidnappers, Malvo, Mike Milligan and the KC Mob).   Jerry hired guys to kidnap his wife, Lester killed his wife, Peggy ran over Rye Gearhardt and covered it up.  For me much of the mystique of "Fargo" has been watching these hapless amateurs careening to a point beyond redemption that began with a VERY BAD choice that they freely made.  Bad things happened, but they brought it upon themselves.

With Season 3, none of the central characters began with an evil or stupid act.  If the entire season followed Ray's descent into the depths because he hired that ridiculous thief to steal the Stamp, it would have been more Fargo-esque.  But Ray is gone now, and this story was never really about him anyway.  Nikki also, did nothing to initiate or assist her misfortune.  Sure, she killed a guy with an air conditioner, but that had no bearing on anything that followed.  She's just another Fargo patsy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Emmit (and even Sy) are not evil either.  They are just businessmen who made a deal that they learned to regret.  They were not attempting any underhanded or illegal scheme.  They simply borrowed money (with full intent to repay with interest) from the wrong guy. 

Emmit killed Ray, but that accidental death was the result of Emmit attempting to do the right thing and give Ray that Stamp.  Sy never had a moment with Varga or his goons where I thought "Oh, crap.  Now he's done it!" 

It wouldn't be Fargo at all without bodies everywhere and blood in the snow, but this season seems all about despicable Varga and the noose of evil he is tightening around Emmit's neck.  Emmit doesn't deserve this fate, and all of the others (Ray, Nikki, Sy) are no more deserving of their fates than those poor folks that Yuri and his henchmen left in the woods. 

This is a really good point. I'm enjoying this season, but I have felt it was "off" and not as good as the other two (and, of course, the movie); this post greatly sums up why. It really does feel like Varga is too much of a catalyst for the things that are happening. And I also think having dueling protagonists, with the brothers, may have muddled things as well. Like you said, Ray did a dumb thing that resulted in a death, but that storyline didn't really go anywhere and now HE'S dead and Emmit accidentally killed him which could have been HIS jumping off point down a bad path, but it's too close to the finale for that. And Emmit's loan thing is too mundane to be the big bumble that causes a downward spiral. It just feels like too much going on, not a clear cut path like you're talking about. I get it. Good summation. 

[shapeshifter]

On June 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, cardigirl said:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/fargo-remains-the-best-most-inexplicable-show-on-tv-1795943834

My apologies if this link was already referenced, but I enjoyed his take on this season.

Regardless of the first sentence, author Patrick Redford has some very insightful takes on the season/episode. 
I think he's spot-on about Ray Wise' character representing Saint Peter, aka heaven's bouncer (according to my childhood Catholic friends).
And I think this bit:

Quote

Varga is a cipher for the ravenous nature of capitalism itself, someone who consumes without feeling and seeks to grow by any means necessary

—explains why this season is a little different, that is, there is now so much future uncertainty, perhaps largely owing to the still accelerating technological advances in business as well as politics, health care, etc., that even in Minnesota the bogeyman is no longer a single monster, but rather a nebulous entity, as this season singularly depicts.

[knaankos]

You guys are right about that. I think it would have been better if in the 1st episode we could have seen Emmit and Sy get into this loan and maybe show them ignoring details or something that made it clear it was through a fault of their own. But as it is, it went on off screen before the season and it seems like a 100% Varga swindle deal.

 

Ray's robbery attempt, aside from getting Glorida involved in the story, effectively got nothing done in this season.

[cardigirl]

5 hours ago, welcomerain said:

Ray Wise is the merriest devil and the grimmest angel. I love him with a love beyond love.

I will agree with you on this point, love Ray Wise! 

[jbrecken]

I think there might have been some Egyptian mythology going on in the bowling alley - they'd just gotten away from some dudes with animal heads, and they come across a guy who likes cats who judges them worthy and sends them off in a scarab (a green beetle).

[rose711]

  16 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

I've been giving some thought to why Season 3 seems different from the original movie and the previous tv seasons.  In the past, the central characters (Jerry Lundegaard, Lester Nygaard, Peggy and her butcher, the Gearhardts) were all flawed persons who committed an evil and/or very stupid act, and then spiraled deeper and deeper into a pit of misery and death, aided by mysterious outside forces (the bungling movie kidnappers, Malvo, Mike Milligan and the KC Mob).   Jerry hired guys to kidnap his wife, Lester killed his wife, Peggy ran over Rye Gearhardt and covered it up.  For me much of the mystique of "Fargo" has been watching these hapless amateurs careening to a point beyond redemption that began with a VERY BAD choice that they freely made.  Bad things happened, but they brought it upon themselves.

With Season 3, none of the central characters began with an evil or stupid act.  If the entire season followed Ray's descent into the depths because he hired that ridiculous thief to steal the Stamp, it would have been more Fargo-esque.  But Ray is gone now, and this story was never really about him anyway.  Nikki also, did nothing to initiate or assist her misfortune.  Sure, she killed a guy with an air conditioner, but that had no bearing on anything that followed.  She's just another Fargo patsy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Emmit (and even Sy) are not evil either.  They are just businessmen who made a deal that they learned to regret.  They were not attempting any underhanded or illegal scheme.  They simply borrowed money (with full intent to repay with interest) from the wrong guy. 

Emmit killed Ray, but that accidental death was the result of Emmit attempting to do the right thing and give Ray that Stamp.  Sy never had a moment with Varga or his goons where I thought "Oh, crap.  Now he's done it!" 

It wouldn't be Fargo at all without bodies everywhere and blood in the snow, but this season seems all about despicable Varga and the noose of evil he is tightening around Emmit's neck.  Emmit doesn't deserve this fate, and all of the others (Ray, Nikki, Sy) are no more deserving of their fates than those poor folks that Yuri and his henchmen left in the woods. 

Well put. That's why I liked Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels much more than I liked Snatch. In the former, the protagonists played an active role in events. In the latter, they were at best spectators.

Wasn't Emmit borrowing a million dollars from illegal sources an evil or very stupid act? That is what started all of this?
Emmit clearly didn't want to look closely at where the money was coming from, according to Sy.

[rose711]

Gloria's attempt at an investigation ended exactly as I thought it would: Failure, demotion, scriptwriter ex machina.

Since she's the designated Brave Heroine, we're supposed to admire her chutzpah or something, but all I can think is how both she and Moe did everything wrong. She made a point of sassing him in the open, and proceeded to disregard everything he said, this man who was going to be her boss in much less time than it'd take to close such a case. He was probably right to prevent her from leading the investigation into her own stepfather's death or any related crimes, but he could have taken advantage of her initiative and energy and kept her on the reservation. Neither of them had the sense not to lock horns, and if it weren't for some heyoka or another playing some tricks for the greater good, Emmit might have gotten away with it.

Ray Wise is the merriest devil and the grimmest angel. I love him with a love beyond love.

Emmit may still get away with manslaughtee and Nikki with murder.

[Macbeth]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Regardless of the first sentence, author Patrick Redford has some very insightful takes on the season/episode. 
And I think this bit:

—explains why this season is a little different, that is, there is now so much future uncertainty, perhaps largely owing to the still accelerating technological advances in business as well as politics, health care, etc., that even in Minnesota the bogeyman is no longer a single monster, but rather a nebulous entity, as this season singularly depicts.

Varga is basically an insatiable ghoul feasting off of Emmit until he has consumed all of him.  (Even the Christmas gifts were not exempt from his consumption.)  Emmit didn't realize he was making a deal with the devil when he asked for the loan.  Varga will never feel satisfied.

At first I thought Varga was gas lighting him with the stamp pictures, etc...  Now I believe it is Nikki- as Varga is driving Emmit to the brink by his feasting.  He doesn't need another tact.

[PaperTiger]

  On 6/9/2017 at 6:19 AM, cardigirl said:

Well, I really enjoyed this episode. I was glad to see Ray Wise again. The action/escape sequence was wonderfully horror-filled. I found myself exhorting Mr. Wrench and Nikki to "kill them! Kill them!" 

I'm not sure if the bowling alley was some sort of fever dream brought on by her physical state? Initially I thought we might be seeing Nikki's mind while she's in some place dying or recovering, but then Yuri shows up in the same place, so I'm not sure what that was. It seemed to me that the injuries she and Mr. Wrench suffered were too great for them to have been able to sip whiskey and then drive away. 

If it was purgatory, shouldn't she have been cleaned up? Like shouldn't the blood have been gone, a la "It's a Wonderful Life"?

I read that the actor who plays Mr. Wrench is deaf IRL, and that he and Mary Elizabeth had to work out their own communication  during those scenes, which I found to be wonderful. 

Loved the Christmas scene with Gloria and her son and the gift of socks. I do that with my own kids. It's a tradition to get socks for Christmas. But there was not enough Burgle in this episode. 

Good riddance Sy. Sorry, still not a fan of that character. 

Only two episodes left. Can they possibly tie this all up in a resolution by then? Fingers crossed! 

Interesting. I thought the socks were just a sign of how much this kids life is completely bad.

Socks and underwear under the tree always put my little brother into a rage. It's been 60 plus years, but I was unwise enough to make a joke about our folks gifting him with with stuff like that a couple years ago and wrecked Christmas morning.

[Gobi]

While I'm enjoying this season, it hasn't grabbed me like the other two did, and I've been wondering why. I think it's because I don't get the sense of anything being at stake.

For example:

In the first season, there was Malvo's and Lester's battle for Lester's soul.

In the second, the gang war.

But what is the struggle here? Solving the murder of Gloria's stepfather? Who cares? We know who did it, the murderer is dead, as is the man who initiated it, and I can't work up any enthusiasm for seeing Nikki punished for killing the murderer.

So Emmit cheated his brother out of a valuable inheritance? Yes, but Ray's failures in life seem to have been much more his own doing, while Emmit took what he got and built on it. And I would derive no satisfaction from Emmit being punished for the accidental death of his brother.

Which brings me to Varga. Two episodes left, and I still don't know what criminal acts he is up to. I'm not ignoring the murders and such that he's ordered, but what are those in furtherance of? Money laundering seems to be the worst crime that he's committing. And we don't know what kind of money he's laundering. Drug? Human trafficking? Gun running? Or is it just tax evasion? I'm not that invested in his character, because I don't know what drives him. I want to see him fall, but not nearly as much (in an emotional sense) as I wanted Yuri to die, because I saw what Yuri did. Mostly, I've just seen Varga be a jerk.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Gobi
Clarity

[cardigirl]

3 hours ago, PaperTiger said:

Socks and underwear under the tree always put my little brother into a rage. It's been 60 plus years, but I was unwise enough to make a joke about our folks gifting him with with stuff like that a couple years ago and wrecked Christmas morning.

This makes me so sad. 

[j5cochran]

On 6/11/2017 at 0:21 AM, jbrecken said:

I think there might have been some Egyptian mythology going on in the bowling alley - they'd just gotten away from some dudes with animal heads, and they come across a guy who likes cats who judges them worthy and sends them off in a scarab (a green beetle).

Perhaps in the title -- "Who rules the land of de Nile?"

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-06-10 at 3:31 PM, welcomerain said:

Gloria's attempt at an investigation ended exactly as I thought it would: Failure, demotion, scriptwriter ex machina.

Since she's the designated Brave Heroine, we're supposed to admire her chutzpah or something, but all I can think is how both she and Moe did everything wrong. She made a point of sassing him in the open, and proceeded to disregard everything he said, this man who was going to be her boss in much less time than it'd take to close such a case. He was probably right to prevent her from leading the investigation into her own stepfather's death or any related crimes, but he could have taken advantage of her initiative and energy and kept her on the reservation. Neither of them had the sense not to lock horns, and if it weren't for some heyoka or another playing some tricks for the greater good, Emmit might have gotten away with it.

Ray Wise is the merriest devil and the grimmest angel. I love him with a love beyond love.

Gloria's adventure ain't over yet and I expect the end will be terribly different than where things are now.

[Bannon]

17 hours ago, Gobi said:

While I'm enjoying this season, it hasn't grabbed me like the other two did, and I've been wondering why. I think it's because I don't get the sense of anything being at stake.

For example:

In the first season, there was Malvo's and Lester's battle for Lester's soul.

In the second, the gang war.

But what is the struggle here? Solving the murder of Gloria's stepfather? Who cares? We know who did it, the murderer is dead, as is the man who initiated it, and I can't work up any enthusiasm for seeing Nikki punished for killing the murderer.

So Emmit cheated his brother out of a valuable inheritance? Yes, but Ray's failures in life seem to have been much more his own doing, while Emmit took what he got and built on it. And I would derive no satisfaction from Emmit being punished for the accidental death of his brother.

Which brings me to Varga. Two episodes left, and I still don't know what criminal acts he is up to. I'm not ignoring the murders and such that he's ordered, but what are those in furtherance of? Money laundering seems to be the worst crime that he's committing. And we don't know what kind of money he's laundering. Drug? Human trafficking? Gun running? Or is it just tax evasion? I'm not that invested in his character, because I don't know what drives him. I want to see him fall, but not nearly as much (in an emotional sense) as I wanted Yuri to die, because I saw what Yuri did. Mostly, I've just seen Varga be a jerk.

Yes, I strongly agree. For a character who has been central to so many scenes, it's unfortunate that with so little time left we are in the dark still with regard to what Varga is up to, and why he is up to it. Frankly, I think it may have been better to write Emmitt a bit more sympathetically, to give us reason to hope for his extraction from his mess. He hasn't been written as a villain, and writing him as obnoxiously smug about his small fortune is not unrealistic in any way, but it also would not have been unrealistic, to make him more Job-like, a fundamentally decent and righteous person set upon by travails, to see if he could maintain his decency.

I dunno, I'm just kind of mulling over what could have been done to make this season better. I've enjoyed it, but not nearly as much as I did 1, or especially season 2.

[rose711]

While I'm enjoying this season, it hasn't grabbed me like the other two did, and I've been wondering why. I think it's because I don't get the sense of anything being at stake.

For example:

In the first season, there was Malvo's and Lester's battle for Lester's soul.

In the second, the gang war.

But what is the struggle here? Solving the murder of Gloria's stepfather? Who cares? We know who did it, the murderer is dead, as is the man who initiated it, and I can't work up any enthusiasm for seeing Nikki punished for killing the murderer.

So Emmit cheated his brother out of a valuable inheritance? Yes, but Ray's failures in life seem to have been much more his own doing, while Emmit took what he got and built on it. And I would derive no satisfaction from Emmit being punished for the accidental death of his brother.

Which brings me to Varga. Two episodes left, and I still don't know what criminal acts he is up to. I'm not ignoring the murders and such that he's ordered, but what are those in furtherance of? Money laundering seems to be the worst crime that he's committing. And we don't know what kind of money he's laundering. Drug? Human trafficking? Gun running? Or is it just tax evasion? I'm not that invested in his character, because I don't know what drives him. I want to see him fall, but not nearly as much (in an emotional sense) as I wanted Yuri to die, because I saw what Yuri did. Mostly, I've just seen Varga be a jerk.

I think Varga is a figure for unlimited greed. The problem is it's difficult to make paper crimes look sexy and dramatic.

I agree that I'm not as invested in the season and this is why:

The villains are too one dimensional. Varga is tedious and disgusting. The male cops are obstructing Gloria without anyone on her side supporting her- like the cafe owning father in season 1 supporting Molly and Gus. So all we get are incompetent male cops blocking her in various ways.

The female cops are also a bit one dimensional. It might be the acting choices but Gloria is too flat to me and we aren't getting many heartfelt moments with her kid like we did in Season 1. They are basically dogging along on a case without much info about their lives, at least for me.

The emphasis on disgusting vomiting, teeth cleaning, peeing, etc. Not fun to watch.

The insistence on strident political commentary which detracts from the story. It's way too heavy handed.

My suspicion that Varga gets away with everything. No one listens to Gloria and nothing is learned from or gained by the entire experience. I can imagine Varga just driving away completely scott free of any wrongdoing - my only hope that I'm wrong is Nikki and Wrench.

However: I adore the character of Nikki. I feel she is a unique character that I haven't seen before.