S03.E07: The Most Powerful Man in the World (and His Identical Twin Brother)

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

On a mission of mercy, Kevin assumes an alternate identity.

[tomsmom]

My brain hurts.

[stagmania]

So Kevin realizes he wants to stop running...just as Nora decides to annihilate herself. I can honestly say I have no freaking clue what's going to happen next week, but it looks like the world didn't end after all.

It was strangely exhilarating to see Patti and Meg again. Anyone else get some outside discomfort from all the talk of the radical American president, Russia and nuclear holocaust? I wonder how long ago they planned the details of this last little journey to the other side.

[Pallas]

That made me so happy. I could have watched ten hours of that ridiculous shaggy dog story. Justin T. is peerless with the heartfelt, absurdist comedy. I don't watch him showing me baffled, bridling and ambivalent: I'm in there with him. Even the dick jokes.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

So everyone that Kevin saw was dead - and I was distracted a few times, please correct me if I am wrong - no Laurie among those, right?

[stagmania]

3 minutes ago, Pallas said:

That made me so happy. I could have watched ten hours of that ridiculous shaggy dog story. Justin T. is peerless with the heartfelt, absurdist comedy. I don't watch him showing me baffled, bridling and ambivalent: I'm in there with him. Even the dick jokes.

I laughed out loud at the bits with Patti's glasses. Just the perfect little tension breaking moments. 

2 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

So everyone that Kevin saw was dead - and I was distracted a few times, please correct me if I am wrong - no Laurie among those, right?

Yes, all dead, but they were also all people he knew were dead. He had no reason to see Laurie there, because he doesn't know what she did. This place, whatever it is, is shaped by Kevin's experiences and losses. 

[Pallas]

9 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I laughed out loud at the bits with Patti's glasses. Just the perfect little tension breaking moments. 

So true. Their mutual, knowing exasperation. They play beautifully together. Like aunt and favorite nephew. 

The mirroring of the 19th-century believers on their rooftops, and curled up in their church the morning after. "Now what," indeed. Decide to live and know why. The most powerful man in the world can't get one thorny woman to read his dove-grams.

[Milburn Stone]

That bald, dog-shooting guy at the beginning? If they ever make the Greg Gianforte Story, he's the guy.

[stagmania]

13 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

That bald, dog-shooting guy at the beginning? If they ever make the Greg Gianforte Story, he's the guy.

Welp. Can't unsee that one.

[Cardie]

16 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

That bald, dog-shooting guy at the beginning? If they ever make the Greg Gianforte Story, he's the guy.

Lindelof posted a picture of Gianforte on Instagram with hashtags of #dogpresident and #peanut butter.

This was a brilliant psychodrama, cluing us in that the Sudden Departure is a huge misdirection. It simply made people who they authentically were all along. Kevin has always been split in two, wanting to serve and protect his community and his family and wanting to run far away and be alone. The nihilism of the GR, long attractive to him even as he cursed it and fought to destroy it, is the only thing that can solve this painful emotional paradox. So he removes the key to his heart and uses it to launch Armageddon. (The cycling in and out from death to life is the magical realist version of what Laurie knows is a deep psychological problem; it's the same phenomenon of his asphyxiation fetish.) Is Kevin now ready to choose life, to be a lover, not an assassin/Messiah?  And is it too late, having nothing to do with further cosmic catastrophes?

Edited May 29, 2017 by Cardie

[scrb]

Kevin wouldn't let Norah in, he was always running away.  Now he's ready to come home.

After the absurd stuff -- the penis scanner -- follow it up with the trite and sappy?

Bravo Lindelof ...

[Macbeth]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

Kevin wouldn't let Norah in, he was always running away.  Now he's ready to come home.

After the absurd stuff -- the penis scanner -- follow it up with the trite and sappy?

Bravo Lindelof ...

Vintage Lindelof.  Speaking as a survivor of his show Lost.

[maystone]

OMG. I kept falling asleep. Not because I was bored but because I've been awake for over 24 hours. Let me tell you that one of the rings of hell surely is to keep falling asleep and forcing yourself to wake momentarily to watch Kevin having whatever the hell it was that he was having. That was the most freaking surreal hour of my life … and I was around in the 60s. I cannot wait until I can watch the rerun and find out just what the h*ck happened.

[ottoDbusdriver]

6 minutes ago, scrb said:

Kevin wouldn't let Norah in, he was always running away.  Now he's ready to come home.

After the absurd stuff -- the penis scanner -- follow it up with the trite and sappy?

Bravo Lindelof ...

So if Kevin had to use the penis scanner to get into the bunker, how did Meg get in ?  Or Patty ?

There were actually 3 Kevins in that bunker -- President Kevin, Assassin/Fisher protocol Kevin and the painting of President Kevin on the wall.  I'm trying to figure out what was in the painting on the wall behind the painting of President Kevin ?  Lots of vertical white objects.

The part of Kevin's speech on the teleprompter was talking about the legislation he introduced to outlaw marriage -- the single most destructive idea conceived by human kind.

The lead secret service dude was the other dead Sheriff Kevin -- killed by the women back in Episode 2 of this season.

And was that David Burton talking to Assassin Kevin over the earpiece ?

[shapeshifter]

Bravo. Drama with just the right amount of comic relief seasoning. "They'd never go to such lengths." Hahahaha.

So he removes the key to his Evil Twin's heart in order to die?!? I guess the disconnect/absurdity is what keeps it from being sappy.

Reflections. Reflective surfaces allow him to see the mirror image, e.g., a world where Evie lives but the rest of her family was destroyed by a drone strike. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

Lindelof posted a picture of Gianforte on Instagram with hashtags of #dogpresident and #peanut butter.

This was a brilliant psychodrama, cluing us in that the Sudden Departure is a huge misdirection. It simply made people who they authentically were all along. Kevin has always been split in two, wanting to serve and protect his community and his family and wanting to run far away and be alone. The nihilism of the GR, long attractive to him even as he cursed it and fought to destroy it, is the only thing that can solve this painful emotional paradox. So he removes the key to his heart and uses it to launch Armageddon. (The cycling in and out from death to life is the magical realist version of what Laurie knows is a deep psychological problem; it's the same phenomenon of his asphyxiation fetish.) Is Kevin now ready to choose life, to be a lover, not an assassin/Messiah?  And is it too late, having nothing to do with further cosmic catastrophes?

I want to marry this post. Thank you for summing it up so succinctly and perfectly.

46 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Bravo. Drama with just the right amount of comic relief seasoning. "They'd never go to such lengths." Hahahaha.

I loved how the show went meta here with references to Justin Theroux's attention-grabbing *jogging pants* from season 1. 

Ok...I'll admit it. I'm a dirty old woman (younger than Justin Theroux, though) who was hoping that since Matt and Tommy's characters both had full frontal scenes before, we might actually get a Justin Theroux full frontal scene. But alas.... I did appreciate the humor here though, Justin Theroux's eye roll, and the way the security guy was sneaking a peek. I feel like that scene was written with people (like me) who were fans of Theroux's *jogging* from season 1 in mind.

While I'm in the shallow end, Kevin's spray tan was beautiful this episode. Two Kevins in one room? Whooo....thanks, writers. And the acting wasn't too bad, either. 

I'm excited for next week's episode. Last week's Laurie episode and the previous week's Matt episode were so beautifully done, but this episode was my favorite so far of the season. What can I say - I'm a sucker for a nihilist love story. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Cardie]

55 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

So if Kevin had to use the penis scanner to get into the bunker, how did Meg get in ?  Or Patty ?

From Kevin's perspective, he is the one to have to prove he has a dick. That requirement wouldn't be necessary for women. (Of course, this being HBO, perhaps they had to show their boobs.) Kevin said in his novel that he couldn't stay by the woman he loved because that meant letting her see that he was emotionally small and afraid. Of course he would over-compensate with a penis scanner.

I kind of loved it that the authentic book of Kevin was not a new gospel but a romance novel with an unhappy ending.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Cardie

[Bama]

I can't say I understand what's going on but after that episode I do know one thing for sure.

Justin Theroux wears the fuck out of a suit.  My lord.

[crookedjackson44]

After watching last night's episode, I retired to bed to read a little more of Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough (I'm weird like that).  And I was amazed to discover, as he writes of Osiris, the dead and resurrected great god of Egypt, that he as depicted "erect between the guardian wings of the faithful Isis, who stands behind him" (436).  Is that not almost exactly what the show's imagery displays?  This cannot be a coincidence.  It's just brilliant.

[WaltersHair]

Patti. Is Back. NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOO

Don't say it. DO. NOT. SAY THAT NAME-

"Key-evin"

ARGGGGG.

[loki567]

One good thing about this show ending, I never have to see one of these, "International Assassin," episodes again. So bad. 

[Uncle Benzene]

Did the Kevins nuke the "afterlife"? "So we never have to come here again"? And Patti helped, because Kevin helped her by pushing her down the well?

Is this story all about people laying down their burdens?

--Matt laid down the burden of his crippling, pathological version of "faith"

--Laurie laid down her burden of always trying to fix people

--Kevin Sr. laid down his burden of his apocalyptic prophet/savior complex

--Kevin Jr. laid down his burden of running away, and nuked his "afterlife" sanctuary

--Maybe Nora lays down her burden of survivor's guilt in the finale?

Hell if I know, but it makes sense to me right at the moment. All I know for sure is I'm damn sad that this show will be Departing forever next week. Somebody stick me in a machine and send me to a world where this show doesn't end.

[Joimiaroxeu]

6 hours ago, crookedjackson44 said:

Said it before and I'll say it again: Jennifer Aniston done good for herself. Real good.

It is something to watch this show and American Gods in the same 24-hour period. I'm really going to miss The Leftovers.

[Macbeth]

6 hours ago, crookedjackson44 said:

After watching last night's episode, I retired to bed to read a little more of Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough (I'm weird like that).  And I was amazed to discover, as he writes of Osiris, the dead and resurrected great god of Egypt, that he as depicted "erect between the guardian wings of the faithful Isis, who stands behind him" (436).  Is that not almost exactly what the show's imagery displays?  This cannot be a coincidence.  It's just brilliant.

Bravo crookedjackson44.  I bow to you.  I never even saw this image before.

But will this Isis still be a willing guardian to her resurrected God?  Given her response in the 1st episode of this season - I don't think so. 

I don't know much about the love story of Osiris and Isis - but Kevin made sure to burn their love down in his last encounter with Nora.

[scrb]

12 hours ago, Cardie said:

Lindelof posted a picture of Gianforte on Instagram with hashtags of #dogpresident and #peanut butter.

This was a brilliant psychodrama, cluing us in that the Sudden Departure is a huge misdirection. It simply made people who they authentically were all along. Kevin has always been split in two, wanting to serve and protect his community and his family and wanting to run far away and be alone. The nihilism of the GR, long attractive to him even as he cursed it and fought to destroy it, is the only thing that can solve this painful emotional paradox. So he removes the key to his heart and uses it to launch Armageddon. (The cycling in and out from death to life is the magical realist version of what Laurie knows is a deep psychological problem; it's the same phenomenon of his asphyxiation fetish.) Is Kevin now ready to choose life, to be a lover, not an assassin/Messiah?  And is it too late, having nothing to do with further cosmic catastrophes?

Or the show is using a gimmick that was well-received for International Assassin over and over again.

Didn't Lost have the characters jump back and forth in time repeatedly?

Oh and showing all those nukes raining down on the Melbourne skyline is nonsensical other than the show wanting to show a cool image.

Edited May 29, 2017 by scrb

[Domestic Assassin]

I'm so glad I gave up on Lost after the first season.  It's nice not comparing this show to that all the time.

As for this episode, it was kind of pathetic and ridiculous, and I loved every freaking minute of it.

[Penman61]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Oh and showing all those nukes raining down on the Melbourne skyline is nonsensical other than the show wanting to show a cool image.

LOL I think the Biometric Penis Scanner was what jumped the Verisimilitude Shark, but YMMV.

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, Uncle Benzene said:

Is this story all about people laying down their burdens?

Another way to phrase it is that they are all finally willing to let the mystery be and to treasure what life has given them rather than trying to explain, combat or escape what it has taken away.

[Helena Dax]

I can get behind the theory that Kevin was giving up his ability to go that weird place, but the fact is that he died and came back to life. Again. It wasn't just an hallucination. His father drowned him for real in that bath. So.... is the show trying to say that the fact that he's able to resurrect doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Is it really the Universe (or the beings behind the Departure) trying to tell Kevin that he has to stop running away from people? Because tbh, I don't get why it/they would be so particularly invested in Kevin's personal and romantic life

This doesn't mean I didn't like the episode. I did, even if didn't really understand it. When it comes to dreams, hallucinations and prophecies, I never do. But it was like being in the middle of an acid trip and I just enjoyed the ride. Loved the penis part, so absurd, heh. And the actress who plays Patti is amazing, so it was great to have her back for this episode. 

If the relationship between Nora and Kevin is so important within the show, I want them to end up together at the end. We saw Nora and she didn't seem very fond of Kevin right then but maybe he can go to her and talk her into trying again. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Helena Dax

[stagmania]

4 hours ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

I'm so glad I gave up on Lost after the first season.  It's nice not comparing this show to that all the time.

I've seen every episode of Lost and I rarely think about it when watching this show. Some people are very fixated on hating Lindelof (it's what drove him off social media). 

18 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I can get behind the theory that Kevin was giving up his ability to go that weird place, but the fact is that he died and came back to life. Again. It wasn't just an hallucination. His father drowned him for real in that bath. So.... is the show trying to say that the fact that he's able to resurrect doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? 

I'm wondering about this, too. With Kevin, while there is some mystery about whether he really has a divine connection or a mental illness (or both), there is no mystery about his apparent inability to physically die. I hope we'll see it addressed again in the final episode, though I wouldn't be surprised if we're not given any sort of definitive explanation for it.  

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I can get behind the theory that Kevin was giving up his ability to go that weird place, but the fact is that he died and came back to life. Again. It wasn't just an hallucination. His father drowned him for real in that bath. . . .

Are we sure that his father didn't pull him out at the last minute? Sort of like biblical Abraham -- who was willing to kill his son Isaac to prove his faith in God -- being stopped at the last minute by an angel from killing his son (with Kevin Sr.'s angel being his own inner voice)?

[Cardie]

Where Lindelof gets into trouble is with his use of science fiction or supernatural happenings as metaphors while at the same time insisting that they are occurring in real life. After feeling as burned as anyone by the end of Lost, I've learned not to apply real world tests to what seem to be impossible occurrences in his writing. People have all sorts of special abilities. Kevin's seems to be coming back from the dead.

[Macbeth]

4 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Where Lindelof gets into trouble is with his use of science fiction or supernatural happenings as metaphors while at the same time insisting that they are occurring in real life. After feeling as burned as anyone by the end of Lost, I've learned not to apply real world tests to what seem to be impossible occurrences in his writing. People have all sorts of special abilities. Kevin's seems to be coming back from the dead.

Once I began to watch The Leftovers again (I had stopped early S1) and I found out Lindelof was behind this series (late S2)- I understood that if I continue to watch the show - there will never be any explanations and just enjoy the ride. 

Like Helena Dax stated above - this show - like Lost  - is basically an acid trip. IMO

I think it helps that this series is only 3 seasons long with only 10 episodes each season  - unlike Lost that had 6 seasons with about 20 episodes a season.  I believe his series work better as short stories.

I was very pleased that the lesson from the story about the resurrecting man was about how he kept running away from his family.  That he wasn't the next Messiah.

So, like the characters in the story, I have found peace and acceptance with the lessons Lindelof is telling with this series.

[Penman61]

Re Kevin's ability to come back from death:  Hasn't the show been careful to have natural (if far-fetched) explanations for how Kevin, however improbably, could actually survive these experiences?  I suppose the poisoned/buried alive is the hardest to swallow.  But I do think TPTB want us believe there are natural explanations, however improbable, for Kevin's "resurrections."

The core, I think, is here, in an interview Matt Zoller Seitz did with Lindelof.  Apologies for the wall of text, but the context matters.  

Quote

[Lindelof] The other thing, also relating to hotels, that I remember about that piece is that you were reflecting on some memory you had with Jen [Seitz's late wife] where you guys had gotten in a massive fight and you were walking back to your hotel room and there was a fork sitting in the middle of the hallway?

[Seitz] That was actually an ex-girlfriend. But that was in the section of it about how I always get my back up when I hear a complaint about a movie or a television show or a novel that dialogue was too on-the-nose, that symbolism was too on-the-nose, and so forth. Dreams are on-the-nose and life is on-the-nose. And that was just one example of that. Like, here we were about to break up, it was pretty clear to us that we were going to break up that night –

Put a fork in it.

Exactly. Well, that, too — but also the idea of a fork in the road. There was literally a fork in the road on the way to the hotel room! It was a symbolically resonant image, so much so that my soon-to-be ex-girlfriend, who also was a writer, took a picture of it.

Of the fork?

She just started laughing and said, “I have to get a picture of this.”

Here’s what’s amazing to me about the story, or at least what occurred to me when I read it was, like, somebody put their room-service tray out in the hallway, and room service came and picked it up and the fork fell off. That’s the story. And all of a sudden this fork now has meaning. Isn’t that just religion writ large? Like, isn’t that the whole ball of wax right there, something completely and totally devoid of meaning can suddenly have meaning if you put it in the proper context. 

 

The show's "metaphysical" aesthetic, if you will, is not about "Can you come back from the dead?" or "Is there a God," et al., but about why and how humans have religious feeling and thought, how we endow--how we NEED to endow--life's forks with meaning and significance.

A sampling of forks endowed on the show:  

• One small town in Texas has no Sudden Departures (statistically rare but plausible):  Miracle!
• Kevin Jr., has "resurrection" experiences: New Christ! He is Risen!
• Mary regains full consciousness:  She is healed in Miracle! It's a miracle!
• Kevin Sr. hearing voices telling him to finish songlines to stave off the New Flood: Prophet!
• Nora's losing her entire family (again, rare but statistically plausible): Punishment for a Sinner
• And of course all the negative cultish and terrible things people do in extremis when there's no explanation at hand.

The show's point, IMHO, isn't to validate the supernatural or to confirm religious propositions ("Told you there was a God!").  It's to reveal the primal roots of religious feeling in a modern context.  

Edited May 29, 2017 by Penman61

[maystone]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

I can get behind the theory that Kevin was giving up his ability to go that weird place, but the fact is that he died and came back to life. Again. It wasn't just an hallucination. His father drowned him for real in that bath. So.... is the show trying to say that the fact that he's able to resurrect doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Is it really the Universe (or the beings behind the Departure) trying to tell Kevin that he has to stop running away from people? Because tbh, I don't get why it/they would be so particularly invested in Kevin's personal and romantic life

This doesn't mean I didn't like the episode. I did, even if didn't really understand it. When it comes to dreams, hallucinations and prophecies, I never do. But it was like being in the middle of an acid trip and I just enjoyed the ride. Loved the penis part, so absurd, heh. And the actress who plays Patti is amazing, so it was great to have her back for this episode. 

If the relationship between Nora and Kevin is so important within the show, I want them to end up together at the end. We saw Nora and she didn't seem very fond of Kevin right then but maybe he can go to her and talk her into trying again. 

Kevin really did die multiple times. The first time he wasn't just dead, he was dead and buried and he came back in front of Michael, who I consider to be a reliable witness. But he's not the only one we've met who's resurrected. There was God. He fell off a mountain and broke his neck; his friend dragged his corpse to a cave but then he was found not just alive but also without a scratch on him. Then he went crazy. So you know, maybe since the Departure it's become an actual Syndrome. We're only getting to see this world through the eyes of the extended Garvey family; who know how many other people have discovered that they can't die?

I don't think the gods or whatever are particularly interested in any of them. I think that Kevin discovered this awful gift, and his psyche went galloping off to try to make sense of . . . anything it could.

39 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Are we sure that his father didn't pull him out at the last minute? Sort of like biblical Abraham -- who was willing to kill his son Isaac to prove his faith in God -- being stopped at the last minute by an angel from killing his son (with Kevin Sr.'s angel being his own inner voice)?

Kevin Sr. seemed to have abandoned his son in the bathtub. Kevin Jr. woke up under a blanket in the church, so maybe John and/or Michael pulled him out. Kevin Sr. was shivering his fearful ass off on top of the roof of the house. At least he had the grace to apologize to his son for leaving him.

[TimWil]

Will they ever get back to that page in a 1970s National Geographic which Kevin Sr swore explained The Sudden Departure?

I'm trying to resolve an argument-didn't Mary start to walk out on Matt in the first episode but in a subsequent episode they agreed off camera to "work things out" and she and the kid are actually still with him?

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Sort of like biblical Abraham -- who was willing to kill his son Isaac to prove his faith in God -- being stopped at the last minute by an angel from killing his son (with Kevin Sr.'s angel being his own inner voice)?

His inner voice, or the Archangel Michael, the angel of mercy, who intervened with Jacob.

[Domestic Assassin]

Quote

I'm trying to resolve an argument-didn't Mary start to walk out on Matt in the first episode but in a subsequent episode they agreed off camera to "work things out" and she and the kid are actually still with him?

Mary left Matt in the first episode of the season.  In the third episode, at a time set three weeks before the events of the first episode, Matt told Kevin Sr. that he and Mary were having problems but he thought they'd work things out.  So no, Mary actually did leave him.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Moose Andsquirrel

[bagatelle]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

LOL I think the Biometric Penis Scanner was what jumped the Verisimilitude Shark, but YMMV.

Agree.  Especially since big balls do not a huge penis make. We've seen no evidence of it.  The joke is silly.

[Clanstarling]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Reflections. Reflective surfaces allow him to see the mirror image, e.g., a world where Evie lives but the rest of her family was destroyed by a drone strike.

For one hot second I thought that this was the "explanation" for the departure - that on this side, it was our Leftovers who'd departed.

14 hours ago, Bama said:

Justin Theroux wears the fuck out of a suit.  My lord.

As well as nothing..

8 hours ago, Uncle Benzene said:

Did the Kevins nuke the "afterlife"? "So we never have to come here again"? And Patti helped, because Kevin helped her by pushing her down the well?

Is this story all about people laying down their burdens?

--Matt laid down the burden of his crippling, pathological version of "faith"

--Laurie laid down her burden of always trying to fix people

--Kevin Sr. laid down his burden of his apocalyptic prophet/savior complex

--Kevin Jr. laid down his burden of running away, and nuked his "afterlife" sanctuary

--Maybe Nora lays down her burden of survivor's guilt in the finale?

Hell if I know, but it makes sense to me right at the moment. All I know for sure is I'm damn sad that this show will be Departing forever next week. Somebody stick me in a machine and send me to a world where this show doesn't end.

I like the way you laid it out for our characters. Makes sense to me.

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

LOL I think the Biometric Penis Scanner was what jumped the Verisimilitude Shark, but YMMV.

Yeah, verisimilitude doesn't mean much to me with this show. LOL.

3 hours ago, Cardie said:

Another way to phrase it is that they are all finally willing to let the mystery be and to treasure what life has given them rather than trying to explain, combat or escape what it has taken away.

Aaannd, you bring it around to the beginning. Nice job.

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

I've seen every episode of Lost and I rarely think about it when watching this show. Some people are very fixated on hating Lindelof (it's what drove him off social media).

The only time I ever think of Lost in regard to this show is on the forum. Personally, I liked Lost (started out loving, ended up liking since there were a few too many heinous episodes), and I didn't mind the ending because it was pretty much in the ballpark of what I thought from the get-go.

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

Where Lindelof gets into trouble is with his use of science fiction or supernatural happenings as metaphors while at the same time insisting that they are occurring in real life. After feeling as burned as anyone by the end of Lost, I've learned not to apply real world tests to what seem to be impossible occurrences in his writing.

See, that's where my paying no attention whatsoever to the showrunners and writers helps me out. I didn't feel burned, because I didn't have expectations based on what they said. I do understand that it enhances the experience for many, but for me, I'd rather just watch the episodes and snark on the forums.

[scrb]

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

Where Lindelof gets into trouble is with his use of science fiction or supernatural happenings as metaphors while at the same time insisting that they are occurring in real life. After feeling as burned as anyone by the end of Lost, I've learned not to apply real world tests to what seem to be impossible occurrences in his writing. People have all sorts of special abilities. Kevin's seems to be coming back from the dead.

Not just that but claiming he had an overall, coherent plot.

He said there would be an explanation for everything and denied that they were making things up as they went along.

But Lost got in deeper and deeper, spewing more fantastical things, while still not explaining a lot of the original things.  No Lost viewer can say there was a satisfactory explanation for the smoke monster, for instance.

It seems some of the same patterns are emerging in the way S2 and S3 are unfolding.  Now, they said they'd never explain the Sudden Departure.  But they don't mind strewing more "stuff" along the way.  Because these mystical or fantastic elements are like a crutch, when they're at a dead-end in the story.

Anyways, Lindelof is eager to please the crowd so Kevin and Nora probably will go off together into the sunset and most of the other characters will have happy endings.

Actually getting rid of the GR, which they should have done in S1, should have been enough to make everyone else happier, kind of like the false image they put up in the first episode of this 3rd season.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

The show's point, IMHO, isn't to validate the supernatural or to confirm religious propositions ("Told you there was a God!").  It's to reveal the primal roots of religious feeling in a modern context.  

Perfectly sums up the story of the ancient woman, her baby and the snake that starts S2. She sees omens, miracles and punishments in a series of random actions. That's what the show has been serving up as a whole with all the reactions to the unexplainable and never to be explained Sudden Departure.

[Deanie87]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Once I began to watch The Leftovers again (I had stopped early S1) and I found out Lindelof was behind this series (late S2)- I understood that if I continue to watch the show - there will never be any explanations and just enjoy the ride. 

Like Helena Dax stated above - this show - like Lost  - is basically an acid trip. IMO

I think it helps that this series is only 3 seasons long with only 10 episodes each season  - unlike Lost that had 6 seasons with about 20 episodes a season.  I believe his series work better as short stories.

ibI was very pleased that the lesson from the story about the resurrecting man was about how he kept running away from his family.  That he wasn't the next Messiah.

So, like the characters in the story, I have found peace and acceptance with the lessons Lindelof is telling with this series.

Just as a different (or maybe similar) perspective, I watched probably 3/4 of season 1 and it just didn't do it for me and I never finished it and skipped season 2 as well.  But I happened to catch the premiere of season 3 and I have been hooked ever since.  I don't really know what is going on or the backstory of each character, other than what I vaguely remember from season 1, but I have been consistently moved (often to tears though I have no idea what is going on) by every single episode.  I hope to go back and catch up on season 2 before the finale, but I doubt I'll be able swing it.   So I'm not even looking for answers, since I barely know the questions, but that hasn't prevented me from really loving every episode so far, and that is a sign of pretty good storytelling to me, not to mention the incredible acting and musical score.  If nothing else, I hope to go back and watch everything once it is all over and I'm sure that it will only enhance my enjoyment of it.  

Edited May 29, 2017 by Deanie87

[Cardie]

26 minutes ago, scrb said:

 No Lost viewer can say there was a satisfactory explanation for the smoke monster, for instance.

Well, it was sort of a stupid explanation but there was one. Jacob killed the Man in Black and shoved his body into the cave of all magic. From that time forward, he manifested as that destructive cloud of smoke or impersonated other people, until he decided to stay in the form of faux-Locke.

[stagmania]

This isn't a Lost forum, so perhaps grievances about that show can be aired somewhere else. 

I'm wondering how much closure or lack thereof we might get in the finale. There seems to be a Future Nora story in play, but hard to say what we'll get for the other characters.

Edited May 30, 2017 by stagmania

[Canada]

I feel like I'm watching a different show than I did in the first two seasons.  And each episode this season is a completely new show that I've never seen before and don't really understand/get the point of.  This one included.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

. . . Kevin and Nora probably will go off together into the sunset and most of the other characters will have happy endings. . . .

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

. . . I'm wondering how much closure or lack thereof we might get in the finale. There seems to be a Future Nora story in play, but hard to say what we'll get for the other characters.

The only way I can see both the happily ever after Kevin and Nora scenario and the future Nora scenario merging is if Kevin changes his name so people don't keep trying to drown him.
I've mostly enjoyed this series, but I'm ready for it to end.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

6 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Re Kevin's ability to come back from death:  Hasn't the show been careful to have natural (if far-fetched) explanations for how Kevin, however improbably, could actually survive these experiences?  I suppose the poisoned/buried alive is the

The show's "metaphysical" aesthetic, if you will, is not about "Can you come back from the dead?" or "Is there a God," et al., but about why and how humans have religious feeling and thought, how we endow--how we NEED to endow--life's forks with meaning and significance.

A sampling of forks endowed on the show:  

• One small town in Texas has no Sudden Departures (statistically rare but plausible):  Miracle!
• Kevin Jr., has "resurrection" experiences: New Christ! He is Risen!
• Mary regains full consciousness:  She is healed in Miracle! It's a miracle!
• Kevin Sr. hearing voices telling him to finish songlines to stave off the New Flood: Prophet!
• Nora's losing her entire family (again, rare but statistically plausible): Punishment for a Sinner
• And of course all the negative cultish and terrible things people do in extremis when there's no explanation at hand.

The show's point, IMHO, isn't to validate the supernatural or to confirm religious propositions ("Told you there was a God!").  It's to reveal the primal roots of religious feeling in a modern context.  

This is perfect. Thank you.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On May 29, 2017 at 3:34 AM, crookedjackson44 said:

After watching last night's episode, I retired to bed to read a little more of Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough (I'm weird like that).  And I was amazed to discover, as he writes of Osiris, the dead and resurrected great god of Egypt, that he as depicted "erect between the guardian wings of the faithful Isis, who stands behind him" (436).  Is that not almost exactly what the show's imagery displays?  This cannot be a coincidence.  It's just brilliant.

Good catch! @crookedjackson44, are you an anthropologist? I know some who have been known to read The Golden Bough before bed for fun, but it's been a while.

I love everything about this picture. I want a Kevin & Nora endgame. I'm not even sorry for wanting it. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, maystone said:

Kevin really did die multiple times. The first time he wasn't just dead, he was dead and buried and he came back in front of Michael, who I consider to be a reliable witness. But he's not the only one we've met who's resurrected. There was God. He fell off a mountain and broke his neck; his friend dragged his corpse to a cave but then he was found not just alive but also without a scratch on him. Then he went crazy. So you know, maybe since the Departure it's become an actual Syndrome. We're only getting to see this world through the eyes of the extended Garvey family; who know how many other people have discovered that they can't die?

I don't think the gods or whatever are particularly interested in any of them. I think that Kevin discovered this awful gift, and his psyche went galloping off to try to make sense of . . . anything it could.

I like the idea of an Immortality Syndrome, and the very different responses of David Burton and Kevin. As Australia's Olympian decathlete and Voice of the Sydney Games, Burton didn't have the option of trying to keep his resurrection on the down-low. When public reaction became too much for him, he became a quasi-hermit -- and now and then indulged himself by playing God. But in a more secular culture, with no loved ones forcing themselves on him as apostles, and without a yen for martyrdom: "That's putting a lot on someone," as both he and Laurie said.   

Burton's recovery "without a scratch" from a climbing fall that broke his neck, seems more implausible than any of Kevin's. I think Burton serves as a corrective on two ideas: that Kevin is unique, either in his destiny or in his "bio-physics;" and that Kevin has been chosen due to some exceptional quality. The formerly immortal David Burton was an asshole. As asshole like some of the Departed, who as a group were also not exceptional or virtuous: Matt got that right. What Kevin Sr. got right was that Kevin Jr.'s not an assassin, he's an escape artist. Just a guy who likes to blame himself when other people go away, and blame other people when he wants to leave. Not an asshole, just that kind of asshole: the kind who puts a lot on everyone because he wants them to happy, without him.