Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

Some people might be saying Dany going mad or turning evil is wrong no matter what but the vast majority of us (including many who don’t particularly like Dany) have said that it’s the execution that’s bad. I wouldn’t have a problem with Dany going crazy or Jon killing Dany if it had been properly set up. The way D&D have written it is unbelievable. They keep telling us that she’s acting crazy at times but what they’re showing us hasn’t been crazy to a lot of us, and she hasn’t been morally ambiguous enough to justify a villain edit at the end. Arya and Sansa becoming villains would be more supported by what they’ve shown us onscreen, though I would hate it if they went in that direction too. 

And I disagree with @Eyes High that the Lannisters were more interesting in the books. Book Jon is a complex and interesting character. So is book Arya. There is a reason that Tyrion, Jon, and Arya are consistently named the top three favorite characters in the books. Jaime is also quite popular in the books but the show has made him uninteresting. I agree that they chose better actors to play the Lannisters with the exception of Maise Williams, who I think is a very strong actress, particularly for a child actor in the early seasons, but the writing for Arya has been terrible since she left for Braavos so her talent is hard to see now. 

That's my issue, if she acted like a crazy Gillian throughout, it would be ok. But she hasnt.

[MrsR]

I prefer to think of her as really stressed out.

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I agree.

I can't see Dany EVER willingly give up a throne that she's been after ever since her brother died.  There is just no chance of that, it would be completely out of character.   She believes it's her right to rule Westeros, and she's believed that for a very long time.

For a while, in the books, since she screwed up "ruling" everywhere, and was basically only good at conquering, that her time spent learning by her various mistakes might benefit her, make her a decent ruler for Westeros when she got there.  

She's still the same Dany though, believing that because of her birth she's entitled to sit on that throne.

How could that happen though?  She suddenly abandons everything she's worked for all along, and realizes that NO ONE, including her, should be Queen or King? 

That would be completely unbelievable to me really.  Even if she fell in love with Jon and they moved to a little house with a red door on some island somewhere with her dragons and let the world do what it will do, jumping off the wheel or something?  At any rate, that complete turn about in character is not in the cards, as the scene with Jon telling him to lie and his revulsion at her being her Aunt?  Show it's just not possible.

There could be some freaky twist that has dead Jon, dead Dany, and the dead dragons hooking up in the afterlife to become a possible magic threat to Westeros if they (the council)  put a foot wrong?  That would be too stupid.

I think this will be an end to magic in the world though, that would mean and end of both ice and fire.  If the dragons live, maybe ICE has to live as well, so there would be a new NK?  I think that's why they all have to die.

Yes, I could always see this, but honestly, I can't really tell if it's because of the books or the show now.  After all, the ages are so different in the books, and Dany is still stuck on another continent and struggling to rule.

Dragon.

Dany has always been blind to the fact that she's an outsider, and that while she may adore "her children" the general population would be rightly terrified of dragons.  Currently, she seems to completely reject the absolutely sound advice that burning millions of her "people" in KL by using dragon fire on their city is not going to endear her to "her people." 

Ever.

That right there is a sign that she's not mentally stable, and that she may be a great conquerer, thanks to her dragons, she still has no idea about ruling.  Her dream was that all the people of Westeros would love and cheer her, throw flowers in the streets at a Targ return, and at her return.  Even when she sees that isn't happening?  She is willing to rule by force and dragon murders, apparently blind to the fact that though that will make people fear her, it will never make them love or accept her, especially if she burns KL.

-----

People keep shortcutting Bran's new role as him being the new King, or even Bran taking the "throne." 

If the spoilers are correct, there is no throne, let alone an Iron Throne.  Bran oversees a council.  That is very different from being the new King.

I think the showrunners only left out the valonqar during the prophesy scene because it was far too big a spoiler.  I do think Jaime or Tyrion still kills Cersei.  OR, Arya does, wearing one of their faces.  Yes, I know that gives her two huge kills, so it's more likely Jaime kills her...still, I wouldn't rule it out.  I also wouldn't rule out one last appearance of the Faceless though.

The problem with bran is the character is both hated and not decoupled enough, it's not like he fought the battle. He just stares, it feels thrown in. Region in charge of the council would be better recieved.

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Yeah, I mean most countries dont go from absolute monarchy to Democracy. The ones that tried that struggled a lot. Im thinking more of a British type process where a democracy slowly emerged as Parliament got more power gradually. There is a line from Runnymede to the English Civil War to the Glorious Revolution etc etc. So you could end with a monarch and a new system, The problem is that Dany  wants to be Louis  XIV not  Queen Victoria . Im not sure she would even be willing to be a Charles II

Yeah, there's just a ton of interesting stuff that could have been written, that would had added depth to a sense of tragedy, if the lazy bums who are writing these scripts had made an effort.

[Eyes High]

40 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Related to what I said above about the Valonqar not being included when they did Cersei's prophesy scene.

IF one of her little brothers does not kill her, why would they leave it out?

OK, maybe it's because "little brother" might be anyone's little brother, including the baby she's carrying being, for example, Joffrey's little brother.

Still, it makes me think it was indeed "too big a spoiler" so it's Jaime (most likely) or Tyrion (doubtful because that is what Cersei expects.)

Part of me really wants Arya to get her most important name left crossed of her list though, so I mostly hope it's Arya, wearing Jaime's face.

I really don't see either Tyrion or Jaime killing Cersei. Tyrion is still desperately trying to save Cersei's life, and now Jaime has abandoned Brienne and is rushing to her side in her hour of need...even after she sent their BFF to kill them both! They really do love her, as fucked up as that is.

Face skinning is not something you can really do easily and on the fly. If shit hits the fan in KL, as we've been all but promised it will, Arya's not going to be in any position to skin Jaime's face...although with the writing for S8, you never know.

It's entirely possible that D&D left out the valonqar prophecy because they had a different death in mind for Cersei. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Eyes High

[BadAssRobinArryn]

40 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Tywin Lannister did some horrible, horrible things to maintain power- wiping out an entire house, the red wedding, etc., yet I haven't heard anyone accuse him of being mad or crazy.   

No, but he is one of the villains. And he got his punishment in the end. It's not that we were supposed to root for him.

[Umbelina]

Quote

It seems likely to push Daenerys to a scary level.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/05/game-of-thrones-nathalie-emmanuel-missandei-interview/

Nathalie Emmanuel on that shocking Missandei scene.  A bit more confirmation?

[onyxrose81]

I would say, yeah, it would push Daenerys to a scary level.  She's not going to take the loss of Missandei and Rhaegal lying down.  She's going to bring Fire & Blood.  It's still not definitive confirmation of her going mad.  

[JennyMominFL]

Im just pissed Lysa never met Tormond. I think they would have hit it off. We know he likes milk!

Edited May 8, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[Raachel2008]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Each of the individual Lannister siblings is far more interesting, nuanced and compelling than Jon, Dany and the Stark siblings combined. The Lannisters are also played by much better actors. It's no surprise that D&D are obsessed with them and that they've eaten the show. The show is nothing without them.

Agreed on all accounts, but I think the Starks and Dany appeal to the audience in ways the Lannisters never did - I'm talking show, not book.

Are those Spanish spoilers from Friki? Because he keeps insisting on Tyrion's betrayal and trial, and gathering all the spoilers together from all the (f)leaks, Tyrion betrays both Dany and the Starks, then goes to trial, Jon kills Dany and then Jon goes to trial and takes the black again.

The only way it "works" is if Tyrion believes in the whole Cersei frames Dany thing, then convinces Jon that Dany is bathsit insane, then Jon kills Dany> Then later it is knowns that it was all a Cersei's plot, which could be revealed in Tyrion' trial - he would have betrayed Dany causing her death and betrayed Jon/the Starks by making him kill Dany.

BUT, assuming this absurd chain of events is even possible (plausible is a word D&D don't know), I still can't see Jon killing Dany unless, say she kills one of his siblings in front of him - would he kill her if he believed she killed Arya?

STILL, why would Jon even go to trial? He may feel guilty and all and exile himself and such, but a trial makes zero sense.

I don't buy the bells thing for a second. Dany would never snap with bells, and you'll have a hard time convicning me that Cersei would. Shame or not, the woman has probably heard a lot of bells since the High Sparrow days.

ETA: I wonder if the very first leak about the 'council' wrote Bronn while thnking Brienne.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Raachel2008

[Andromeda]

9 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

Im just pissed Lysa never met Tormond. I think they would have hit it off. We know he likes milk!

And breastfeeding!!

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

ETA: I wonder if the very first leak about the 'council' wrote Bronn while thnking Brienne.

Yeah, I said it at the time, and I still wonder if they heard it, and heard Bronn instead of Brienne.

[kittykat]

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

Yeah, I mean most countries dont go from absolute monarchy to Democracy. The ones that tried that struggled a lot. Im thinking more of a British type process where a democracy slowly emerged as Parliament got more power gradually. There is a line from Runnymede to the English Civil War to the Glorious Revolution etc etc. So you could end with a monarch and a new system, The problem is that Dany  wants to be Louis  XIV not  Queen Victoria . Im not sure she would even be willing to be a Charles II

I've always wondered over the idea of a parliament.  Maybe that will be part of Dany's struggle.  She gets the throne but instead of absolute rule she's more of a figurehead.  Hand of the Queen would act as Prime Minister and possible House of Lords would be respective leaders of each kingdom/state; Sansa-North, Robin-Vale, Edmure-Riverlands, Yara- Iron Islands, Tyrion- Westerlands, Gendry- Stormlands, Sam or Bronn - the Reach, unnamed Dornish Prince - Dorne.  Establish Davos as head of a House of Commons so smallfolk get a voice.  Im still thinking no throne but I'd support this.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Jon did die.

Yeah, but he kept his face in the process.  

The first time, anyway.

[onyxrose81]

2 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I've always wondered over the idea of a parliament.  Maybe that will be part of Dany's struggle.  She gets the throne but instead of absolute rule she's more of a figurehead.  Hand of the Queen would act as Prime Minister and possible House of Lords would be respective leaders of each kingdom/state; Sansa-North, Robin-Vale, Edmure-Riverlands, Yara- Iron Islands, Tyrion- Westerlands, Gendry- Stormlands, Sam or Bronn - the Reach, unnamed Dornish Prince - Dorne.  Establish Davos as head of a House of Commons so smallfolk get a voice.  Im still thinking no throne but I'd support this.

Too many people want to go from a feudal society to a democracy right away and I'm like..."Have you opened a history book...ever?"  That makes no sense and it's disastrous whenever a nation tried.  It'd be eased into it, like the situation stated above.

[screamin]

17 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I want a Darker Jon too.

I know, right?! Besides what I mentioned earlier regarding his false implication that Dany had made him give up his crown to save the North and his silent smiling acceptance of being praised as dragonrider and hailed as a king by Tormund and his followers in front of Dany without giving her credit, there's also his spreading of the news to his sisters that they're not in fact his sisters. Sansa's reaction is predictable enough in the light of her mutual distrust with Dany that it also makes me wonder if it's another half-conscious sabotage of Dany by Jon.

Maybe GRRM has Jon come back from the dead darker and more ruthless, and that's GRRM's endpoint that the showrunners are half-assedly hinting at - but Show Jon is just coming off as innocently clueless in fanning the flames of the North's desire to have him as king. It would be interesting if Jon had an ambitious dark side he doesn't fully acknowledge even to himself. But to have him stumble into power because he's just too dumb to avoid it is just annoying.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

Too many people want to go from a feudal society to a democracy right away and I'm like..."Have you opened a history book...ever?"  That makes no sense and it's disastrous whenever a nation tried.  It'd be eased into it, like the situation stated above.

I agree in general, but in this story?  They already have people who don't believe in hereditary rights to rule. 

The Freefolk, and they've been doing it for quite a long time.  So it's not exactly a new concept.

[JennyMominFL]

8 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

Too many people want to go from a feudal society to a democracy right away and I'm like..."Have you opened a history book...ever?"  That makes no sense and it's disastrous whenever a nation tried.  It'd be eased into it, like the situation stated above.

The other issue is the lack of an Enlightenment or Scientific revolution to  spark the ideas that lead to democracy. When I say I want no more iron Throne, what I should say is I want THIS version of the throne gone. 

My degree is in History so i love this topic.

[ShellsandCheese]

13 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

Too many people want to go from a feudal society to a democracy right away and I'm like..."Have you opened a history book...ever?"  That makes no sense and it's disastrous whenever a nation tried.  It'd be eased into it, like the situation stated above.

Jon would represent the North though, not Sansa. And who says it has to be a Stark anyway. Maybe the first step is to take power away from all the historical houses who have had it. That would be interesting. 

[Stallion12]

25 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I've always wondered over the idea of a parliament.  Maybe that will be part of Dany's struggle.  She gets the throne but instead of absolute rule she's more of a figurehead.  Hand of the Queen would act as Prime Minister and possible House of Lords would be respective leaders of each kingdom/state; Sansa-North, Robin-Vale, Edmure-Riverlands, Yara- Iron Islands, Tyrion- Westerlands, Gendry- Stormlands, Sam or Bronn - the Reach, unnamed Dornish Prince - Dorne.  Establish Davos as head of a House of Commons so smallfolk get a voice.  Im still thinking no throne but I'd support this.

I'd like that.

[MissLucas]

The Free cities are probably a good point of reference for anything that could be dubbed proto-republicanism (and there's a lot more of that around in European history than what people might think and with roots going back to the Middle Ages). But since they haven't been much featured in the show and there's simply no time left to deal with what could be considered a realistic transformation of the political system some sort of council as suggested in the leaks will have to do. If E6 is mostly epilogue than we might get some more insight if and how it worked out.

[Raachel2008]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree in general, but in this story?  They already have people who don't believe in hereditary rights to rule. 

The Freefolk, and they've been doing it for quite a long time.  So it's not exactly a new concept.

 But you don't go from the Iron Throne to the Freefolk - specially the Freefolk, a society wich culture allow women to fight, have sex and live their lives as they want. 

[ShellsandCheese]

There are so many great ideas being talked about in this thread, makes me sad that we will probably end up with an unsatisfying ending. It's been clear since season seven that the showrunners are totally checked out - and they are clearly more interested in ending the story than telling the story. I am just keeping my fingers crossed that the third (have we seen the first two yet?) WTF moment is actually unpredictable, shocking, and one that actually makes sense within the context of what we have seen over the course of the last eight years. Every potential I've read so far about potential endings is not cutting it for me.  

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

The other issue is the lack of an Enlightenment or Scientific revolution to  spark the ideas that lead to democracy. When I say I want no more iron Throne, what I should say is I want THIS version of the throne gone. 

My degree is in History so i love this topic.

Well, Rome had a republic for several hundred years, and survived several crises, before becoming a dictatorship. Athens and other Greek cities did not have monarchies. It just would have been an interesting seed of conflict if more of the anti-Cersei contingent (besides the wildlings) were willing to imagine governance without an absolute monarch.

[spaceghostess]

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

Some people might be saying Dany going mad or turning evil is wrong no matter what but the vast majority of us (including many who don’t particularly like Dany) have said that it’s the execution that’s bad. I wouldn’t have a problem with Dany going crazy or Jon killing Dany if it had been properly set up. The way D&D have written it is unbelievable. They keep telling us that she’s acting crazy at times but what they’re showing us hasn’t been crazy to a lot of us, and she hasn’t been morally ambiguous enough to justify a villain edit at the end. Arya and Sansa becoming villains would be more supported by what they’ve shown us onscreen, though I would hate it if they went in that direction too. 

 

^This.^ Thank you. 

Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Yes, I hate to see the dragons die, but I didn't complain about the writing behind Viserion's "death," for example, because, while the Wight Hunt had its issues, his death in that context made sense to me. Rhaegal's death, on the other hand, didn't, because it was a result of Dany suddenly being too unhinged, apparently, to even remember that Euron's navy exists. Really? Please.

The notion that people who object to Dany's "madness" are just Jonerys shippers and/or dragon stans is reductive and I kind of resent it. Her "WMDs" have been presented as sentient beings she considers her children. I bought into that, and not because I think they're soooo cute. Like nuclear missiles, they are potentially devastating. Unlike nuclear missiles, they are intelligent and loyal. They're also bonded to their mother. The show leaned hard into this bond for years, and I find myself unable to disengage from it at D&D's convenience. Having said that, I didn't expect any of them to live to the show's conclusion (laws of three/magic, etc.) As a Jon fan, I was okay with the J/D relationship because, again, it made sense based on what had come before, but I was also prepared to accept them breaking up because complications. I never expected a fairytale ending for them because that's not how this show or this world works. My loyalties thus far have been based on the story and character development presented over many seasons.

While I may be very invested in certain characters, however, I'm above all a fan of good storytelling. If there had been a logical, consistently drawn trail to lead us to to Mad Queen Daenerys, I would have had no choice but to follow it--and the payoff, if "bittersweet," would be earned. This, however, feels like a bait-and-switch. Do we have a Mad Queen? Absolutely. Her name is Cersei, and she's having the best time ever.

[JennyMominFL]

4 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

^This.^ Thank you. 

Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Yes, I hate to see the dragons die, but I didn't complain about the writing behind Viserion's "death," for example, because, while the Wight Hunt had its issues, his death in that context made sense to me. Rhaegal's death, on the other hand, didn't, because it was a result of Dany suddenly being too unhinged, apparently, to even remember that Euron's navy exists. Really? Please.

The notion that people who object to Dany's "madness" are just Jonerys shippers and/or dragon stans is reductive and I kind of resent it. Her "WMDs" have been presented as sentient beings she considers her children. I bought into that, and not because I think they're soooo cute. Like nuclear missiles, they are potentially devastating. Unlike nuclear missiles, they are intelligent and loyal. They're also bonded to their mother. The show leaned hard into this bond for years, and I find myself unable to disengage from it at D&D's convenience. Having said that, I didn't expect any of them to live to the show's conclusion (laws of three/magic, etc.) As a Jon fan, I was okay with the J/D relationship because, again, it made sense based on what had come before, but I was also prepared to accept them breaking up because complications. I never expected a fairytale ending for them because that's not how this show or this world works. My loyalties thus far have been based on the story and character development presented over many seasons.

While I may be very invested in certain characters, however, I'm above all a fan of good storytelling. If there had been a logical, consistently drawn trail to lead us to to Mad Queen Daenerys, I would have had no choice but to follow it--and the payoff, if "bittersweet," would be earned. This, however, feels like a bait-and-switch. Do we have a Mad Queen? Absolutely. Her name is Cersei, and she's having the best time ever.

I dont think Cersei is insane either, just evil

[Raachel2008]

10 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Do we have a Mad Queen? Absolutely. Her name is Cersei, and she's having the best time ever.

Cersei is not mad. Cerse is evil, knows she is evil and likes being evil.

[spaceghostess]

33 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

I dont think Cersei is insane either, just evil

You've made so many good points in your prior posts and this is also food for thought. It seems to me that acts which are now being used as predictive signposts for Dany's turn to madness are seen by some people as evil, also.  I saw Cersei's plotting for the first several seasons as evil, but blowing up the Sept, while expedient and cleverly plotted, made me see her as crazy, because she was completely unable to take responsibility for any her actions leading up to the Walk of Shame or afterward. She blames everyone except herself for the death of her children. That's nuts. IMO, in Cersei's case, "evil" and "crazy" aren't mutually exclusive. I see Dany as neither, despite how she was portrayed in 8.04 and what's coming down the 'pike.

Edited May 8, 2019 by spaceghostess
clarification

[JennyMominFL]

1 hour ago, spaceghostess said:

You've made so many good points in your prior posts and this is also food for thought. It seems to me that acts which are now being used as predictive signposts for Dany's turn to madness are nowhere near as bad as the numerous "evil" deeds Cersei's committed. I saw Cersei's plotting for the first several seasons as evil, but blowing up the Sept, while expedient and cleverly plotted, made me see her as crazy, because she was completely unable to take responsibility for any her actions leading up to the Walk of Shame or afterward. She blames everyone except herself for the death of her children. That's nuts. But is she also evil? I think there's a definite overlap.

What I still love about this show is that its still making us have these sorts of conversations. Is Cersei mad or evil? Is she both? Is there a difference?  Which one is worse?

To me Crazy involves some level of absolution. If either Cersei or Dany are truly crazy, then I feel bad for them. They may not even be capable of doing the right thing. They are broken. This is why many legal systems have a verdict of Not Guilty by reason of insanity. If I understand correctly, the main question that defines actual legal insanity is if the person does not know that what they were doing was a crime, that they are incapable, through a mental defect, of understanding their actions.  Cersei knows her actions are wrong . Its not that she cant accept responsibility, its that she wont.

 Now if we are using the vernacular for crazy, I dont think  Dany is  crazy, nor Cersei. They have no delusions,  they dont hear voices, or do any of the things we usually use to define crazy.

  But one can also be insane AND evil.  That could be Cersei.  While I dont think Dany is fit for the throne, as yet, I don't see her as evil or insane. I think she has completed some bad acts. I think she is capable of evil, but I dont think she is evil now

 If Dany break and goes completely nuts, ie the sound of bells scenario, then I will feel badly for her demise. It would be terribly sad. If, on the other hand, she lets her worst impulses get the best of her, especially with less people to hold her back, her killing would be less sad.

 I have seen signs that she could go full baddie. I have not seen signs that she is mad

At the end of the day, even if Dany goes full on bad(not insane) she is still far far better than Cersei.

These are my own definitions of crazy vs evil . Yours may be different.

Edited May 9, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[Wouter]

22 hours ago, ursula said:

She does. She literally tells the Maester to keep giving him the poison and she knows Littlefinger is plotting to marry her off to Sweetrobin's heir.

Not quite. While she knows LF wants to marry her to Harry, as far as her cousin is concerned the maester is giving him medicines that are needed for him to not lose face relative to his lords. LF never said that he meant to poison him. That Sweetrobyn is still in the show, and a Sansa ally, by S8 indicates that he will likely survive in the books, too. It may be one of the book reasons for the LF/Sansa fallout.

9 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Did anyone catch in that last leak spec that Eurons new hostage wears a black cap/hood or something and they think it may be Daario? 

(f)leaker Simon claims that Quaithe will be in ep5 or 6, which would be another candidate as unlikely as Daario.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

I assume the one-sidedness is the result of Drogon being unleashed.

How is Jon sailing to Dragonstone when Euron controls the seas?

Good question, it was already a very questionable decision in ep.4 to sail to Dragonstone when there was no need for that, with Euron's fleet unaccounted for.

I agree that Drogon will clean house on the GC. Probably with the Valyrian armour, Drogon will turn the tables on the "scorpions"/ballistas and as the GC has been kind enough to stand out in the open, rather than semi-hidden in KL and on the walls (they must have looked at the battle tactics of 8x03), they are likely to be routed by the dragon. This would leave Cersei with the remnants of the Lannister forces and the goldcloaks to fight unsullied, Dothraki, northmen and valemen.

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

So if they hit a plot point that George gave them , you're going to be mad with him ?

Just because a plot point might come from GRRM, that doesn't make the execution of it good writing.  I think most would agree that the writing the last two seasons has been rushed, at the very least.

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I see it as they made it a slow burn, and quite a few people see it, their complaints aren't that they didn't see it coming, their complains are its wrong to make her crazy, because they love her and the dragons.

Thanks.  I don't know in what spirit you wrote that, but I at least appreciate your saying it.  Just because we don't like the ending doesn't mean we haven't watched the show or read the book.  So many people have posted "Well, how can you have missed that Dany did this horrible thing, or that cruel thing, or that she's obsessed with the Throne, etc?".  No, we didn't miss it.  I might as well ask the same people if they missed the heroic things that Dany has done also.

I am admittedly a fan of Dany and her dragons, but I hope that won't be held against me.  I'm sure that fans of Jon Snow and Ghost would NOT be happy at all if their favorite was coming to this type of end.  I never expected Dany to make it out of the series alive, but the way they appear to be going about it seems unnecessarily cruel.  "Sorry, you are too dangerous/crazy/evil to live" might apply to Cersei or Ramsey, but they were clear villains from the beginning.

And while they've talked about Targaryens going crazy from the beginning, that doesn't make it inevitable.  Jon Snow is part Targaryen also.  They could have made the madness something she had to confront and deal with in the end, and give up on her plans to rule Westeros.  I don't think that would be so out of character, because she has felt like a stranger ever since she arrived.

And considering how much loss they have piled up on her at this point, it's actually a wonder she is still functioning with any semblence of sanity at all.  But she SHOULD be raining down fiery vengeance now.  If someone had killed Arya's child and her version of Missendei, you don't think she would get medieval on them?  Or anyone else in the series for  that matter?

Unfortunately, the spoilers for episode five don't really seem to take us too far, the answers are in the last episode.

Edited May 8, 2019 by rmontro

[spaceghostess]

47 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

What I still love about this show is that its still making us have these sorts of conversations. Is Cersei mad or evil? Is she both? Is there a difference?  Which one is worse?

To me Crazy involves some level of absolution. If either Cersei or Dany are truly crazy, then I feel bad for them. They may not even be capable of doing the right thing. They are broken. This is why many legal systems have a verdict of Not Guilty by reason of insanity. If I understand correctly the main question that defiines actual legal insanity is if the person  does not know that what they were doing was a crime, that they are unable through a mental defect, of understanding their actions.  Cersei knows her action are wrong . Its not that she cant accept responsibility, its that she wont.

 Now if we are using the vernacular for crazy, I dont think  Dany is  crazy, nor Cersei They have no delusions, dont hear voices or do any of the things we usually use to define crazy.

  But one can also be insane AND evil.  That could be Cersei.  While I dont think Dany is fir for the throne, as yet, I don't see her as evil or insane. I think she has completed some bad acts. I think she is capable of evil, but I dont think she is evil now

 If Dany break and goes completely nuts, ie the sound of bells scenario, then I will feel badly for her demise. It would be terribly sad. If , on the other hand,she lets her worst impulses get the best of her, especially with less people to hold her back, her killing would be less sad.

At the end of the day, even if Dany goes full on bad(not insane) she is still far far better than Cersei.

These are my own definitions of crazy vs evil . Yours may be different.

I think I was editing my original post while you were responding; you've much better expressed much of what I was trying to say. The overlap of evil and madness is definitely one of those fascinating wormholes and Cersei is a prime example to pick apart (from the cozy confines of my sofa). I can't believe the cuckoo bells aren't for her, actually--if not to drive her over the edge, then just as her death knell. It's such a perfect callback that I'll feel like the ball was dropped if they do turn out to be for Dany. If she must go crazy, can it be sans bells?  Like you, I'd feel horribly sad if she completely loses it and dies that way. But I guess I'd feel better if it were an act of sheer madness, rather than premeditated revenge in which she doesn't care about the collateral damage, because that's less of an assault on her character? Talk about the lesser of two evils. 😞

Edited May 8, 2019 by spaceghostess

[BooBear]

41 minutes ago, Wouter said:

I agree that Drogon will clean house on the GC. Probably with the Valyrian armour, Drogon will turn the tables on the "scorpions"/ballistas and as the GC has been kind enough to stand out in the open, rather than semi-hidden in KL and on the walls (they must have looked at the battle tactics of 8x03), they are likely to be routed by the dragon. This would leave Cersei with the remnants of the Lannister forces and the goldcloaks to fight unsullied, Dothraki, northmen and valemen.

More circumstantial evidence of Drogon having armor is that all the photos in the episode do not include Drogon.

[rmontro]

5 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

It's such a perfect callback that I'll feel like the ball was dropped if they do turn out to be for Dany. If she must go crazy, can it be sans bells?  Like you, I'd feel horribly sad if she completely loses it and dies that way. But I guess I'd feel better if it were an act of sheer madness, rather than premeditated revenge, because that's less of an assault on her character? 😞

Yeah, there's a thin line there.  I think I'd rather it be sheer madness than just evil, ambitious, obsessive Dany.  If they have to do this, I hope they find some way to do it without it making me feel as disappointed as I feel now.

I mean, seriously, there have been a lot of Jon Snow/Ghost fans here who have been upset because Ghost didn't get a pet last episode.  How do they think they would feel if they had to watch them deal with what Dany and her dragons have gone through, and we haven't even got to the worst yet?

1 minute ago, BooBear said:

More circumstantial evidence of Drogon having armor is that all the photos in the episode do not include Drogon.

Those ballista weapons are way overpowered.  Dragons have armor to begin with, Drogon shouldn't need armor.  But it is what it is.  

[Raachel2008]

15 minutes ago, BooBear said:

More circumstantial evidence of Drogon having armor is that all the photos in the episode do not include Drogon.

Some leaks say Dany has a sword with a red stone, I wonder if it is actually ar armor with some crossed silver stripes and the red Targ sigil.

[BitterApple]

I've heard the Drogon armor rumors as well and I gotta ask, where would they get the time and material to fashion armor for a creature that's the size of a 747? I'm assuming the battle would have to take place relatively quickly after the parlay and one of the characters (I can't remember who) said it would be a fortnight before Jon's troops arrived. That seems like an awfully tight timetable from start to finish.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

I've heard the Drogon armor rumors as well and I gotta ask, where would they get the time and material to fashion armor for a creature that's the size of a 747? I'm assuming the battle would have to take place relatively quickly after the parlay and one of the characters (I can't remember who) said it would be a fortnight before Jon's troops arrived. That seems like an awfully tight timetable from start to finish.

Gendry.

Also,  obviously, time is passing, the show just isn't showing us every single moment.

I guess we've come to export teleporting speeds over the years of this show.

[Raachel2008]

2 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I've heard the Drogon armor rumors as well and I gotta ask, where would they get the time and material to fashion armor for a creature that's the size of a 747? I'm assuming the battle would have to take place relatively quickly after the parlay and one of the characters (I can't remember who) said it would be a fortnight before Jon's troops arrived. That seems like an awfully tight timetable from start to finish.

Time and space and such silly details are not of importance for D&D. Look how fast is commute in Westeros,

[JennyMominFL]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Gendry.

Also,  obviously, time is passing, the show just isn't showing us every single moment.

I guess we've come to export teleporting speeds over the years of this show.

If time has passed Cersei had better start looking pregnant.

[LoveLeigh]

Can Arya use her skills to change her face on another person? It would be great if she put  Missandei's face on Jon and had him ride that dragon to KL. Maybe that is why Euron looked so shocked. 

Also, when Bran "warged" where he was remained a mystery for the viewers but we know he went into the past. I think where he was will be revealed and will totally change how this show ends. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Cersei is not mad. Cerse is evil, knows she is evil and likes being evil.

I doubt this. Cersei always did things for he family, her children and whether or not she is mistaken in believing she is pregnant (menopause, stress?) or actually pregnant she sees the possibility that all is not lost. She believes that consolidating power as queen is not only her pleasure but her duty to her family. 

And we’ve met Tywin. This is her trying to make her father proud of her by doing what he would want. And as he mentioned once not failing at this because she is a woman, failing because she is not very good at it.  

She has also armored herself so much that she has little left for others . she was abused by robert and joffrey as well. 

Most people are the heroes of their own stories. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Affogato
Punctuation

[Night Person]

I really think that Jon’s story arc has been bungled as badly as Dany’s. He was originally presented as a tortured soul with a good heart and leadership skills.  We are lead to believe that he has a destiny that was integral to the story.  But there has been little development of his character since his resurrection.  He mostly comes across as a well meaning doofus.

it also appears that his endgame is meant to be a tragic hero who is forced to murder the love of his life to save the world (or something like that).  In order to make that work, the audience has to believe that he and Dany are soulmates in a passionate love affair (much like his parents).  

They have done little to establish that feeling.  I  was certain they would have romantic scenes with them in S8, especially given the way their sex scene was panned.  But all of their scenes have been awkward and forced, even before he learned of his heritage.

It is hard to even understand why they supposedly love each other.  I don’t know if it is his limitations as an actor, bad writing, or poor chemistry, but I’m just not feeling any grand passion.  I think that is going to blunt the impact they are going far in the ending.

I would never have liked the suspected ending, but it might have been more believable and maybe even moving if their individual arcs (her descent into chaos because of the terrible things that happened to her and his horrible decision to end it) and their relationship had been better developed.

[Affogato]

Cersei, Sansa and Dany have a great deal in common. All three have been emotionally, sexually abused and married off without their consent. All three bear the scars of this treatment. All three live in a world where this is common treatment of women no matter what they overcome or accomplish. 

[anamika]

5 hours ago, glowbug said:

And I disagree with @Eyes High that the Lannisters were more interesting in the books. Book Jon is a complex and interesting character. So is book Arya. There is a reason that Tyrion, Jon, and Arya are consistently named the top three favorite characters in the books. Jaime is also quite popular in the books but the show has made him uninteresting.

The problem is that Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran etc. in the book are fantasy characters. Their stories are strongly mired in the magical elements of the series. I agree that they are complex, nuanced characters in the books - compared to the cartoon villain that was Cersei in the books.

D&D and the show runners don't like fantasy and are/were more interested in the soap opera drama of KL. This is so clearly evident in the way they disposed of the AOTD story to focus on Cersei.

One cannot therefore make the argument that the Lannisters on the show are more nuanced, complex characters without acknowledging that this is so because D&D spend all their time writing for them and not for the other characters.

Jon is not even allowed 5 minutes to explore the ramifications of this big secret. Jon and Arya are not allowed 5 minutes before the big battle to discuss their past. Jon and Ghost? No time.  Jon's been a plot device since season 6.  Arya is not allowed to connect with any character other than Gendry and is the same Arya as in season one because all she does is walk around saying - that's not me. Why would they be complex, nuanced characters if the show does not care to write for them?

Meanwhile, here have these long scenes of Jaime and Tyrion walking across the courtyard chatting and sitting in this room and discussing about their past, and their father and their relationships before the battle.

I know Braime shippers are going to hate me, but I loved the Jaime/Brienne scene at the end. Fucking finally. Tired of hearing about Jaime's non-existent redemption arc on the show after the guy continued to support his sister even after she blew up a sept full of people. Jaime finally explaining to his fans why he continues to be a shitty person made me happy. As Tyrion tells Jaime - he knew exactly what Cersei is and continued on. Theirs is a co-dependent toxic relationship.

The true love story on this show, build up over seasons - Jaime/Cersei. Jon killing Dany?  There's nothing there and we don't even know whether these characters love each other at this point - that's how badly they have been written.

Jaime and Cersei dying together?  Coming into this world together holding each other. And at the end of it all, leaving together? Sticking by each other till the very end no matter what? That's love and loyalty. That's what going to resonate and pull at our emotions - because D&D told an actual story there.

[anamika]

I was reading Isaac's interview about Bran's arc and I really don't see why Bran is going to become king and wow, the insight into how D&D write continues to be terrible.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/05/arts/television/game-of-thrones-night-king-isaac-hempstead-wright.html

Quote

Although they  (NK and Bran) did share a meaningful look. What was going on between them, in that moment?

The reasoning behind that wasn’t actually in the script, but [the director Miguel Sapochnik] and I came up with this idea that the look Bran gives the Night King is one of pity. Bran saw the creation of the Night King, or the first White Walker, or whatever. He didn’t ask to become this raving, crazy ice killer. So it’s a bit like a Frankenstein’s monster scenario. He was forced into this situation, and he was trapped into this Night King’s body, and programmed to kill everyone. So we tried to get a moment where Bran is feeling sorry for him.

And yet, he seems to be directing people somewhat. He shuts down the conversation when Dany arrives at Winterfell: “We don’t have time for this.” And just after Sam has found out that his father and brother were killed, he doesn’t give him time to mourn. He insists that this is the moment to go tell Jon about his heritage. It could be read as manipulative, that he’s using Sam’s emotional state to influence how Jon receives the news.

Bran doesn’t care. It’s totally irrelevant to Bran that Samwell Tarly’s family has died, unfortunately. The Three-Eyed Raven doesn’t see things in terms of personal sadness. He just sees things in terms of the way things must unfold, or the way time goes. He’s not going to go, “Oh, I’m sorry, Sam. I hope you feel better in a minute.” He just sees things that have to happen next, and the importance of those things far outweighs any personal tragedies that might occur. It sounds brutal! But that’s been the role of the Three-Eyed Raven for millennia. To sit there, watching, carefully. He doesn’t sit there judging. He doesn’t sit there advising. He just sits there keeping an eye on history and time.

Well, there are some contradictions within that. If he doesn’t fully know the future, how does he know what has to happen next? If he isn’t concerned with people’s emotions, why would he steer Sam to tell Jon at just the exact moment when the news would be somewhat tainted by his perception that Dany could be an unfit ruler?

That might just be for dramatic tension. But yeah, good point. [Laughs] This is all conjecture on my part. I’ve never actually gone through a very detailed analysis of what exactly Bran’s powers are with [the showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss]. To be honest, I don’t think they really want to do that. It would become like a superhero movie, if we knew every way that Bran’s powers worked and what exactly he can do. It’s best to keep that sense of mystery and an unknown to it.
 

Why in the world would a 3ER who does not judge and who does not advise and just sits there and watches time be a good King?

And again, why does the NK wait and plan for 8000 years to want to kill a guy who just sits there and watches time?

The poor actors trying to make sense of their characters from the scripts, lol.

Quote

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: You said before you had questions for showrunners Dan Weiss and David Benioff about the season? What did you ask?

GWENDOLINE CHRISTIE: Yes. It was partially because I love this character and I read about this character [in George R.R. Martin’s novels] before I saw the show. So we all have our own ideas about how we think the character is going to develop. Sometimes your ideas become set in your mind and sometimes David and Dan write something you didn’t expect and find difficult to comprehend.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/05/gwendoline-christie-brienne-jaime-interview/

Edited May 9, 2019 by anamika

[GraceK]

I’m starting to be pretty convinced that Jon kills Dany. Heard a pretty good theory  on a podcast that  compares it to LOTR.

Jon- Frodo/Aragon

Cersei - Saruman 

NK- Sauron

Dany- represents the scouring of shire/ Nissa Nissa

So basically, Sauron is defeated, Saruman in defeated, and we are moving into the Scouring of the Shire portion , which is Dany basically burning Kings Landing etc. Jon having to kill her is basically fulfilling the Nissa Nissa prophecy as well, stabbing the love of his life to usher in a new beginning, maybe a council or whatever, while he goes off like Frodo into then grey havens with scars that will never heal ( which in this show translates north of the wall with Tormund and Ghost). 

The way they got there sucks but 🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

My hope dwindles by the day.

sources: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-ending-jon-snow-north-lord-of-the-rings-iron-throne-ring-of-power/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Edited May 9, 2019 by GraceK

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, GraceK said:

while he goes off like Frodo into then grey havens with scars that will never heal ( which in this show translates north of the wall with Tormund and Ghost). 

There are two Frodos on the show. Both Arya and Jon leave at the end as per leaks.

Edited May 9, 2019 by anamika

[GraceK]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

There are two Frodos on the show. Both Arya and Jon leave at the end as per leaks.

Yeah. This is where I picked up that theory . She’s biased for sure but it does also make sense 🥺

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-ending-jon-snow-north-lord-of-the-rings-iron-throne-ring-of-power/amp?__twitter_impression=true

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Yeah. This is where I picked up that theory . She’s biased for sure but it does also make sense 🥺

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-ending-jon-snow-north-lord-of-the-rings-iron-throne-ring-of-power/amp?__twitter_impression=true

There's also a good post on reddit comparing Dany to Frodo - but a Frodo who ultimately gives in to the ring

Quote

While yes, the White Walkers are the Sauron of the story, IMO a good way to contextualize what is coming in the next couple episodes is going to be to compare them to the scene in the Lord of the Rings where Frodo reaches the Crack of Doom.

In this scene, Frodo(in this case Daenerys) makes it to the endpoint of his journey, but cannot bring himself to let go of the Ring of Power(Iron Throne). Instead, Frodo succumbs to the lure of absolute power and loses sight of himself and his values. It's then that Frodo is ambushed by Gollumn (Cersei), who has long since lost his soul to the Ring (been corrupted by the Game of Thrones). The two have an ugly, senseless struggle (costly battle), while Sam(Tyrion? Jon?) watches in horror, up until Gollumn and the Ring fall into the fires of Mount Doom.

The difference here is that the Iron Throne will not be destroyed, and a lot more people will fall into the fire. Ultimately, the important thing not to lose sight of with this ending is that just because the hero loses sight of themselves at the Crack of Doom, it doesn't invalidate all of the good they've done and all that they've endured. In the words of Tolkein:

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far." ~ Tolkein

In the same way, whatever we may believe of Daenerys' ambition, or the methods she employs in taking the city, that does not wash away the good she did in Slavers Bay, or her decision to protect the realms of men from certain doom.

I am sure D&D are not going to be that deep about any of this, but if we as watchers want to make sense of these things for our satisfaction, having invested so much time in this, we could see Dany's story this way as well.

Edited May 9, 2019 by anamika

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

There's also a good post on reddit comparing Dany to Frodo - but a Frodo who ultimately gives in to the ring

I am sure D&D are not going to be that deep about any of this, but if we as watchers want to make sense of these things for our satisfaction, having invested so much time in this, we could see Dany's story this way as well.

I like this  theory better 😊