Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[BadAssRobinArryn]

27 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think it will be the second Dance of Dragons. I offered evidence for why I think that during the hiatus. It's looking more likely: Sam is conspiring against Dany and just played kingmaker. Drogon's stare, the North's defiance, and the fact that Dany gave Jon access to her dragons suggests betrayal. Rhaenyra did the same to bastard dragon riders. 

The whole of episode three will be about the Battle of Winterfell, which according to most spoilers the Night King will at the very least survive if not downright win. After this, there are only three episodes left and Cersei, Night King and maybe Euron are all still around. And in Addition to these three enemies they should also build up Dany as the main villain with baerely no time at all left in the show. If this were Season 4 it might have happened, but the show's coming to an end and there are a lot of lose threads without Jon and Dany suddenly becoming enemies.

Regarding Dance of Dragons I agree with you, except that one dragon will be mounted by the Night King and it's them the other two are going to fight.

[Hana Chan]

I think that the confrontation with Jamie is going to be interesting because a lot of uncomfortable truths are going to come out. This will be of real interest to Dany, because I don't believe that she's really accepting that her father was the kind of monster that he was. She's been told that he committed atrocities, but she also grew up on the stories told by her brother that they were unjustly deposed and driven from their rightful positions of power. She sincerely believes that she is the only one who should be ruling Westeros, not just because she believes that she will be a just ruler, but by right as the last (as far as she knows) Targaryen.

Having Jamie reveal that he only killed Aerys in order to prevent him from destroying all of Kings Landing and killing hundreds of thousands of people is going to be a hard truth for Dany to swallow. That Westeros has very good reason to be suspicious, if not hostile to the idea of a Targaryen restoration. That just because what happened after Robert's Rebellion was bad doesn't necessarily mean that what was before was wonderful and didn't need to be removed.

And given that we just had Dany's execution of the Tarlys painted so negatively, the comparisons between Dany and her father are going to be unavoidable. This is going to put those who had supported Dany (Tyrion and Varys most prominently, but Jon as well) in a very difficult spot. If the rationale for supporting Dany was that she would be a better and different kind of ruler, this would throw a lot of that into serious question. All of Dany's past actions and conquests would be raised and it might become clear that she will never rule Westeros in the way that she ultimately would want to.

We talk a lot about how GRRM likes to subvert fantasy genre tropes and this would be a big one - the silver haired girl with magical creatures from a royal bloodline fighting to regain the throne of her people. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she doesn't get it because she proves unworthy of the position in the end.

[LadyChaos]

39 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think it will be the second Dance of Dragons. I offered evidence for why I think that during the hiatus. It's looking more likely: Sam is conspiring against Dany and just played kingmaker. Drogon's stare, the North's defiance, and the fact that Dany gave Jon access to her dragons suggests betrayal. Rhaenyra did the same to bastard dragon riders. 

Since Melissandre also said that Gendry would be the making of Kings.....(even though I think she was referring to killing him) .....I wonder if that could still be important in the final battle.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I think that the confrontation with Jamie is going to be interesting because a lot of uncomfortable truths are going to come out. This will be of real interest to Dany, because I don't believe that she's really accepting that her father was the kind of monster that he was. She's been told that he committed atrocities, but she also grew up on the stories told by her brother that they were unjustly deposed and driven from their rightful positions of power. She sincerely believes that she is the only one who should be ruling Westeros, not just because she believes that she will be a just ruler, but by right as the last (as far as she knows) Targaryen.

Having Jamie reveal that he only killed Aerys in order to prevent him from destroying all of Kings Landing and killing hundreds of thousands of people is going to be a hard truth for Dany to swallow. That Westeros has very good reason to be suspicious, if not hostile to the idea of a Targaryen restoration. That just because what happened after Robert's Rebellion was bad doesn't necessarily mean that what was before was wonderful and didn't need to be removed.

And given that we just had Dany's execution of the Tarlys painted so negatively, the comparisons between Dany and her father are going to be unavoidable. This is going to put those who had supported Dany (Tyrion and Varys most prominently, but Jon as well) in a very difficult spot. If the rationale for supporting Dany was that she would be a better and different kind of ruler, this would throw a lot of that into serious question. All of Dany's past actions and conquests would be raised and it might become clear that she will never rule Westeros in the way that she ultimately would want to.

We talk a lot about how GRRM likes to subvert fantasy genre tropes and this would be a big one - the silver haired girl with magical creatures from a royal bloodline fighting to regain the throne of her people. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she doesn't get it because she proves unworthy of the position in the end.

If it were 8x05 and this were the vibe, I would agree, and it does look as if Dany's getting the "loser's edit," but it's early days yet. Emilia said in one of her interviews that she has to give a speech in several languages in S8. Dany has accomplished a lot in the past with speeches. I'm not convinced that all this early hostility from Sam, Sansa, and the Northerners isn't just setting the stage for a dramatic reversal of the kind Dany has successfully engineered in the past with the Unsullied, the Dothraki, and pretty much all her naysayers. Davos said you have to earn the Northerners' respect, which suggests that Dany will indeed earn it, and that hard-won respect will mean much more than if the Northerners had just fallen at her feet from the first meeting. Hopefully she doesn't have to lose her armies and her dragons to the AOTD before the Northerners decide she's worth a damn.

Dany's big Unsullied moment was in 3x04, not 3x01. Her big Dothraki moments were in 1x10 and 6x04. Going off 6x01 alone, you would think that Dany was fucked and there was no way she would ever get the Dothraki on board, since they viewed her as a worthless, disposable slave. Yet three episodes later, they were worshipping her, and five episodes later, they were pledging to follow her to the ends of the earth. In fact, her trusted Dothraki lieutenant, Qhono, was one of the ones who mocked her at the start! Let's give her a few episodes before we write her queenship off as a lost cause.

There are several stills from that 8x02 scene with Sansa and Dany in the library that suggest that although things start off frosty, they warm up to each other. There are several shots of Sansa standing and looking down at someone (Dany) with a smug, cold expression, but there is one still of Dany from the same scene of Dany sitting down, smiling warmly, and looking at someone who is also sitting down judging from the eyeline. It might be assuming a lot, but I think while Sansa starts off nasty and smirky, she ends up bonding with Dany. And if Dany wins Sansa over, that's huge.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Eyes High

[QuinnM]

56 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 I do wonder whether Brienne will bring up the fact that if it weren't for Jaime, Sansa would have been dragged back to Winterfell by the Bolton men.

For the life of me I can't place this interaction.

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I think that the confrontation with Jamie is going to be interesting because a lot of uncomfortable truths are going to come out. This will be of real interest to Dany, because I don't believe that she's really accepting that her father was the kind of monster that he was.

I don't think that is true at all. Dany believed Ser Barristan when he wisely told her the brutal truth about her father's atrocities.  As Dany told Yara, Theon, and Tyrion, "our fathers were evil men, all of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We're not going to do that. We're going to leave the world better than we found it"

[BadAssRobinArryn]

20 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

We talk a lot about how GRRM likes to subvert fantasy genre tropes and this would be a big one - the silver haired girl with magical creatures from a royal bloodline fighting to regain the throne of her people. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she doesn't get it because she proves unworthy of the position in the end.

I don't think that GRRM is subverting fantasy tropes at all. He's playing them pretty straight, except that he's very good in creating "red herrings" that diverted from the really important characters. But at this stage of the series, most of the red herrings are gone and the fantasy tropes can be easily seen for what they are. 

But if the show or GRR Martin really want to subvert fantasy tropes, than the person who definitely shouldn't get the throne is Jon. He's so obviously this show's version of King Arthur/Aragorn, that people take him for granted, much more so than they take Dany's role for granted.

I stand by my opinion that there's not enough time to establish a rivalry between Dany and Jon, when there are still Cersei and the Night King to stop. At least until episode three Jon and Dany will fight together and probably lose together and suffer great loses together. And then they should suddenly start fighting each other with only three episodes left?

Edited April 18, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[onyxrose81]

Yeah, the belief that Jon and Dany will all of a sudden turn against each other is frankly, imo, ridiculous.  If they weren't as close and in love as they obviously are right now, maybe it would be feasible.  But with three episodes left? Not a chance.  Dany has wanted family and a home.  Her faith and belief in being the heir will be shaken but her love for Jon is definitely going to win out, especially if she has a little Targling in the oven.  

[Eyes High]

32 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

For the life of me I can't place this interaction.

In 6x01, Sansa and Theon were on the run from Ramsay's goons after jumping from the Winterfell battlements in S5. Brienne and Pod, who had been sent on a mission to help Sansa by Jaime, saved them.

30 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

I don't think that GRRM is subverting fantasy tropes at all. He's playing them pretty straight, except that he's very good in creating "red herrings" that diverted from the really important characters. But at this stage of the series, most of the red herrings are gone and the fantasy tropes can be easily seen for what they are. 

Yes, exactly. GRRM's reputation for subverting fantasy tropes comes from killing off Ned, Cat and Robb, but they were never actually supposed to be the main characters, and the deaths of the parents or parental figures in fantasy are a pretty standard narrative feature.

The core characters and plots in ASOIAF are all pretty standard takes on fantasy tropes, in my opinion. GRRM threw in generous lashings of grimdark, a lot of abusive parents and abusive relationships, and a great deal of weird sex stuff, but the bones are the same. It's fun to consume other fantasy media and spot the Jons, the Cerseis, the Jaimes, the Aryas, etc.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Eyes High

[John Potts]

There really isn't time for any new conflicts to arise. In 5 episodes, we have to resolve defeating the Night King and who claims the throne. There just isn't time to throw in more complications like Sansa v Danny or (even less likely) Jon v Danny (though they might appear in the Books, when/if they are ever produced). My betting is that only one of Jon & Danny make it and they end up on the throne. Unless the Night King wins, which would have a certain poetic justice to it, but would probably result in a massive fan revolt.

9 hours ago, Clawdette said:

we don't want them falling out of the sky because of ice accumulation on their wings.

I'm sure Qyburn "Tony Stark" the Master of Whispers could come up with a solution - shame he's on the wrong side!

[Bannon]

I really think it makes the most sense that the guy, who was already dead once, gets the permanent dirtnap.

We'll see, obviously.

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah, I think D&D have laid enough clues to foreshadow how the Dany / North conflict will be resolved. “They’ll come to see you for what you are”, “you have to earn their trust” and “my father said you find your true friends on the battlefield” etc.  Northerners hate Dany, then the WF battle happens and Dany and her armies fight side by side with the Northerners, the survivors give each other friendship bracelets.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, onyxrose81 said:

 Her faith and belief in being the heir will be shaken but her love for Jon is definitely going to win out, especially if she has a little Targling in the oven.  

"A targling in the oven", that's so cute. If she's pregnant, the reveal will imo parallel Cersei's miscarriage re: YMBQ.

It isn't sure that 8x03 is all battle. It could, they have enough characters involved, but didn't they talk somewhere about 50 minutes of fighting? There would be 20 of other scenes.

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

"A targling in the oven", that's so cute. If she's pregnant, the reveal will imo parallel Cersei's miscarriage re: YMBQ.

It isn't sure that 8x03 is all battle. It could, they have enough characters involved, but didn't they talk somewhere about 50 minutes of fighting? There would be 20 of other scenes.

I don't know how much exactly. The episode is 82 minutes long, and they've talked about it having the longest nonstop action sequence in TV or film (and they seem to think that the previous record is 45 minutes). 82 minutes of nonstop action seems pretty unlikely. Even 45 minutes is a lot for viewers to stomach; after enough time passes, even the most impeccably choreographed action sequence gets numbing.

If you assume it's about 50 minutes of nonstop fighting, that still leaves 32 minutes of "other," which is quite a lot. So either the battle takes a while to get going--and I could have sworn someone on the cast or crew said it's full-on battle from the first scene--or there are other scenes interspersed with the action to stretch it out (like dialogue scenes in the crypts with Varys and Gilly or whatever similar to with Sansa and Cersei at Blackwater). It could also be that it becomes clear at some point that Winterfell is doomed and there's a lengthy retreat sequence to account for the last chunk of the episode, with 8x04 resuming wherever everyone has fled to. 

Sapochnik and the writers talked about creating little stories around the individual characters as they're fighting, so it's not just Jon fighting for 50 or more minutes: there will be (I assume) a Jon thread, an Arya thread, a Jaime thread, a Pod/Brienne thread, a Jorah thread, a Beric/Hound thread, a Bran thread, etc. So if you have, say, 20 characters whose separate stories you're following as was stated in one of the EW articles, then for 82 minutes that's about four minutes of storyline apiece, which is much more manageable. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Eyes High

[MrsR]

It won't be 50 straight minutes. They said they studied other great battle scenes in order to determine how long actual fighting scenes could be before the audience got tired and when and where character interactions needed to be.

The Battle of Towton was 10 hours straight during a blizzard. 80,000 participants, which was 1% of the population of England at the time.

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, MrsR said:

The Battle of Towton was 10 hours straight during a blizzard. 80,000 participants, which was 1% of the population of England at the time.

Yes, but nobody was asked to watch it.

[dirtypop90]

I think there's plenty of time for conflict between Jon and Dany.  It's already started with the Sansa and Sam and north vs. Dany and Jon learning he's the true heir.  I don't see Sansa ever warming up to Dany, but I can see her pretending to.  And I think she will absolutely push for Jon to stake his claim when she learns about his parentage, because that's a very Sansa thing to do.  Dany has already pretty much threatened her to Jon's face the first ep.  I wouldn't be surprised if Dany starts to see Sansa as a threat that needs to go, which would put Sansa AND Arya vs. Dany, with Jon in the middle.  And I think he would absolutely choose Sansa and Arya over Dany.  The writers even spent time on this conflict during Jon and Arya's reunion scene, so I don't think it's going anywhere.

Edited April 18, 2019 by dirtypop90

[nikma]

New post from BSB

www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/beo147/some_info_and_speculation_a_tale_of_two_gc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app
 

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, anamika said:

You call that a fair trial? He was basically ambushed, not allowed to speak or make his case and had his throat cut immediately. That was clearly a sham trial  to get rid of LF. IF that was a real trial, Sansa would be equally implicated for covering up Lysa's death and lying to the Vale lords.

It was a fair trial. That he was ambushed meant he had less time to think of convincing lies, which only makes it fairer. He was allowed to speak and he could have made his case, as he was starting to when Bran started to give his version of events. He could have chosen to implicate Sansa, but he didn't. Sansa obviously had talked to lord Royce beforehand, and LF was guilty of blackmailing lord Royce, too. Royce was never going to side with LF against Sansa.

Tyrion in KL during S4 may have looked like a fair trial on the surface (hey, Tyrion could implicate his family and everybody in KL, and he got a trial by combat as well), but in which trial was the conviction fair? At Winterfell, the truth came out. In KL, only lies and injustice came out of the trial.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 It could also be that it becomes clear at some point that Winterfell is doomed and there's a lengthy retreat sequence to account for the last chunk of the episode, with 8x04 resuming wherever everyone has fled to.

Retreat to where? Wouldn't the NK have the castle surrounded? So it would have to be fleeing through a secret exit from the crypts or something, in the dark and the extreme cold, without food and with the enemy very near (and the enemy has a dragon, too).

It seems quite obvious that Winterfell cannot end with the defenders "retreating" and the NK outright winning, while nevertheless failing to kill almost all important characters. Unless D&D are far worse writers than I think.

Maybe the survivors do flee, but then the fire at Winterfell is probably a deadly trap for the attackers.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Wouter

[Happy Harpy]

So BSB sticks to the GC attacking WF. It makes two sources, with WoTW, three if the golden shield is indeed theirs. Still not crazy about this one. However, Harry Strickland let Euron walk all over him so I don't expect any logical military objection here. I'm left with a feeling that Cersei bought herself 20.000 red shirts.

The speculation that Euron sends the GC is interesting; indeed he wouldn't care.

Cersei said she had plans for the Targaryen girl, so if there's a kidnapping it was supposed to be Dany's. Since she's in Dragonstone in what seems to be 8x04, they don't get her.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

So BSB sticks to the GC attacking WF. It makes two sources, with WoTW, three if the golden shield is indeed theirs. Still not crazy about this one. However, Harry Strickland let Euron walk all over him so I don't expect any logical military objection here. I'm left with a feeling that Cersei bought herself 20.000 red shirts.

If the GC attacks Winterfell at the same time or before the AOTD shows up, then the odds that the GC flips and ends up fighting on Winterfell's side are good, I think.

Euron would have handed Jon and Dany more men to fight Cersei.

[Happy Harpy]

23 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

If the GC attacks Winterfell at the same time or before the AOTD shows up, then the odds that the GC flips and ends up fighting on Winterfell's side are good, I think.

Euron would have handed Jon and Dany more men to fight Cersei.

It's possible. Unless they're also galactically stupid (might be contagious in the North). Or they could Glover cower and retreat when they see the AOTD.

[nikma]

I think BSB implies that CG will be split in two. Cersei will send only one half to WF.

[tangerine95]

The only way I see Cersei sending the GC to WF so soon is if she really loses it in the next episode.I guess if she has a miscarriage in episode 2 it could push her to just want to kill her enemies.But otherwise  its pretty dumb to send the army before she knows that Dany has been weakened.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Maybe Cersei changes her plan because she's aware that Jaime is going to warn the others?

[SimoneS]

I have never found the GC attack on Winterfell spumor/leak to be believable. It is just so stupid, but since we are talking about Cersei might be true. I don't even understand how time is supposed to work. Maybe weeks or a month has passed since since Dany arrived at Winterfell and the GC was able to get to Winterfell in that time. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[screamin]

52 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I have never found the GC attack on Winterfell spumor/leak to be believable. It is just so stupid, but since we are talking about Cersei might be true. I don't even understand how time is supposed to work. Maybe weeks or a month has passed since since Dany arrived at Winterfell and the GC was able to get to Winterfell in that time. 

The GC has Euron's ships, and ships travel faster than going overland.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

The only way I see Cersei sending the GC to WF so soon is if she really loses it in the next episode.I guess if she has a miscarriage in episode 2 it could push her to just want to kill her enemies

That's what could happen. 

[Lemuria]

I was watching the reaction to Ep. 1 by SiTHFuRion and he just tossed out a question that I hadn't thought about, probably because my initial reaction was to answer it "No."  Still, it's an interesting idea:  Can the NK control any undead, or only those he or his minions (the WW) have raised?  And if the former is true, could he also control the Mountain?

Food for thought.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

So BSB sticks to the GC attacking WF. It makes two sources, with WoTW, three if the golden shield is indeed theirs.

I think this was pretty much established a while back with the photos released by WatchersOnMyBalls over at FF. There were GC shields among the dead dummies from the WF battle.

This is an interesting picture from BsB - Unsullied, Vale or Northern soldiers, Lannister men, Cersei's Queensguard in KL battle

No Dothraki. Though, was there not a video of filming with Dothraki soldiers preparing to enter KL?

Edited April 19, 2019 by anamika

[ursula]

15 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Having Jamie reveal that he only killed Aerys in order to prevent him from destroying all of Kings Landing and killing hundreds of thousands of people is going to be a hard truth for Dany to swallow.

Considering that Cersei did what Aerys planned and destroyed most of Kings Landing and killed tens of thousands of people but Jamie continued to support her --- I'd say it should be a hard truth for the audience to swallow. But I'm going to bet that the writers have conveniently forgotten about that nugget of hypocrisy. 

15 hours ago, Eyes High said:

In 6x01, Sansa and Theon were on the run from Ramsay's goons after jumping from the Winterfell battlements in S5. Brienne and Pod, who had been sent on a mission to help Sansa by Jaime, saved them.

Well, Brienne was sworn to Sansa (and Arya) via Catelyn as proxy and had been charged by Catelyn to negotiate the exchange between Jaime and her daughters. Jaime reminded/prodded/charged her to complete the mission she already had. I'm more inclined to side eye Brienne severely for being a lousy wannabe "ser" than to give Jaime the credit for saving Sansa. If he truly wanted to save Sansa, he could had the authority to go to the North and demand her from the Boltons. 

15 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

But if the show or GRR Martin really want to subvert fantasy tropes, than the person who definitely shouldn't get the throne is Jon. He's so obviously this show's version of King Arthur/Aragorn, that people take him for granted, much more so than they take Dany's role for granted.

I think it says something about society (including fandom) and who we're comfortable wielding power and authority, and all the usual "traditionally masculine" tropes of Chosen Ones/King Arthur/Fisher King etc. that (a lot of) people have this knee-jerk hatred of Dany and are invested in her "downfall" because it would "subvert" the trope.... while remaining completely blind to the fact that Jon Snow Stark-Targaryen, Master of Direwolf and Dragon, Son of Ice and Fire, Azor Azhul and Promised Prince, King Arthur, The Chosen One who Died for our Sins and Rose... is the biggest Mary Sue character in this story.

Or in other words: if Jon was a girl, fandom would hate him.

[GraceK]

32 minutes ago, ursula said:

Targaryen, Master of Direwolf and Dragon, Son of Ice and Fire, Azor Azhul and Promised Prince, King Arthur, The Chosen One who Died for our Sins and Rose... is the biggest Mary Sue character in this story.

Seriously. He’s also the Mad Kings grandson. I wonder if we are gonna hear any Mad King Jon theories? He hasn’t exactly been the poster child for pacifism.  

[Nanrad]

36 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Seriously. He’s also the Mad Kings grandson. I wonder if we are gonna hear any Mad King Jon theories? He hasn’t exactly been the poster child for pacifism.  

OMG! You’re right! 

They'd probably argue that Dany has more Targaryen blood, so it’s different.

[Happy Harpy]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

I think this was pretty much established a while back with the photos released by WatchersOnMyBalls over at FF. There were GC shields among the dead dummies from the WF battle.

Yes, there was one on a picture, it's the golden shield that I was talking about. It did match the description in the books (I think it was you who made the link, wasn't it?) but we didn't know yet if the GC have the same on the show, right? I paid attention in 8x01 in order to get confirmation, but the rat bastards didn't show the shields. Gah.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

If he truly wanted to save Sansa, he could had the authority to go to the North and demand her from the Boltons.

Jaime was in Dorne when Sansa was with the Boltons, including when Cersei learned of it, and only came back after she escaped (6x01). Moreover, Cersei wanted Sansa dead for Joffrey's murder at that time, so I don't think that Jaime could have had any authority to do anything -no way the Boltons would have given her back just because he demanded it- and it wouldn't have been wise to draw Cersei's attention on her survival. 

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Considering that Cersei did what Aerys planned and destroyed most of Kings Landing and killed tens of thousands of people but Jamie continued to support her --- I'd say it should be a hard truth for the audience to swallow. But I'm going to bet that the writers have conveniently forgotten about that nugget of hypocrisy.

Moreover, Daenerys already knows why Jaime killed the Mad King. She accepted it a long time ago and already admitted to it in public, including in front of strangers, since in 6x09 she said to Yara: "All our fathers were evil" (Aerys, Tywin, Balon).

She already swallowed that pill, it would be a retcon/hypocrisy vomit festival if she suddenly had to spit it back. The only logical outcome would be that she's more lenient with Jaime than expected, pardoning him for Aerys' murder.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Considering that Cersei did what Aerys planned and destroyed most of Kings Landing and killed tens of thousands of people but Jamie continued to support her --- I'd say it should be a hard truth for the audience to swallow. But I'm going to bet that the writers have conveniently forgotten about that nugget of hypocrisy. 

Well, Brienne was sworn to Sansa (and Arya) via Catelyn as proxy and had been charged by Catelyn to negotiate the exchange between Jaime and her daughters. Jaime reminded/prodded/charged her to complete the mission she already had. I'm more inclined to side eye Brienne severely for being a lousy wannabe "ser" than to give Jaime the credit for saving Sansa. If he truly wanted to save Sansa, he could had the authority to go to the North and demand her from the Boltons. 

I think it says something about society (including fandom) and who we're comfortable wielding power and authority, and all the usual "traditionally masculine" tropes of Chosen Ones/King Arthur/Fisher King etc. that (a lot of) people have this knee-jerk hatred of Dany and are invested in her "downfall" because it would "subvert" the trope.... while remaining completely blind to the fact that Jon Snow Stark-Targaryen, Master of Direwolf and Dragon, Son of Ice and Fire, Azor Azhul and Promised Prince, King Arthur, The Chosen One who Died for our Sins and Rose... is the biggest Mary Sue character in this story.

Or in other words: if Jon was a girl, fandom would hate him.

Even worse is how people on Tumblr have lately been comparing Jon/Dany to the Stockholm Syndrome that was Joffrey and Sansa. Seriously. I know Dany has gotten more ruthless lately, but comparing her to Joffrey?! That's a little extreme. Plus, Dany actually cares about what Jon does and thinks, encouraging Jon to ride the dragon wasn't "endangering his life" as theses guys claim. Geez...

[anamika]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

I think it says something about society (including fandom) and who we're comfortable wielding power and authority, and all the usual "traditionally masculine" tropes of Chosen Ones/King Arthur/Fisher King etc. that (a lot of) people have this knee-jerk hatred of Dany and are invested in her "downfall" because it would "subvert" the trope.... while remaining completely blind to the fact that Jon Snow Stark-Targaryen, Master of Direwolf and Dragon, Son of Ice and Fire, Azor Azhul and Promised Prince, King Arthur, The Chosen One who Died for our Sins and Rose... is the biggest Mary Sue character in this story.

But see, the thing I have noticed recently is that it's no longer even Jon/Stannis fans driving the Dany hate wagon. It's fans who want brilliant, kind, compassionate, all knowing, smartest, true leader, warrior of Winterfell, best ever Sansa Stark to rule over Westeros as the Queen of the 7K. Jon is often deemed to be too stupid to rule by these folks. He seems to get as much hate as Dany right now because he's on her side. We have already seen media think pieces on how white male boring Gary Sue Jon Snow should give way to brilliant Sansa Stark in the North.

So it seems to be a female fanbase who wants to replace the flawed female character who wields a kind of hard, masculine coded power with their Mary Sue version of beautiful, Einstein, Mother Theresa Sansa Stark. 

The show is also making this about Sansa Vs Dany and not Jon Vs Dany.

I think GRRM's series ending would have been novel and different if he had finished in the late nineties or early twentieth century as he originally intended. 

I do like that the romantic plots we are getting in the final season include:

A character who was deemed too damaged, too far gone and a serial killer (Arya) with Gendry, a character deemed ugly and unfeminine (Brienne) with Jaime, a former slave Missandei and her eunuch lover GreyWorm, Fat Sam and Gilly, and finally the lady wielding the hard power Dany and the guy she considers a sweet boy - Jon.

None of these are conventional romances - so there's that in terms of GRRM breaking tropes.

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Moreover, Daenerys already knows why Jaime killed the Mad King. She accepted it a long time ago and already admitted to it in public, including in front of strangers, since in 6x09 she said to Yara: "All our fathers were evil" (Aerys, Tywin, Balon).

She already swallowed that pill, it would be a retcon/hypocrisy vomit festival if she suddenly had to spit it back. The only logical outcome would be that she's more lenient with Jaime than expected, pardoning him for Aerys' murder.

A retcon can happen. As we saw it happen with Arya, who wanted to cut throats last season in support of Jon, and this season made Jon question if he was part of their family or not because 'Sansa's the smartest person she's ever met'. Or Lyanna Mormont  suddenly caring more about the politics of Jon bending the knee than the AOTD threat.

Episode 2 synopsis from a french broadcaster:

Quote

"Jaime Lannister has arrived at Winterfell. Faced with the threat of white walkers, he chose to join the camp of Jon Snow and his brother Tyrion Lannister. But Daenerys finds herself facing the one who killed her father and it does not leave her indifferent. Outside, the dead come closer."

Edited April 19, 2019 by anamika

[nikma]

Tbh all stans are annoying. Not only Sansa's, but Jon's(most of all IMO), Arya's, LF's, Stannis', Jaime's, Dany's and so on.

Only Cersei's stans are fine lol. They know she is crazy bitch, but they like Lena. 

Yeah, there is Dany hate wagon. But there is even bigger Sansa hate wagon. 

And I completely disagree that there are not a lot of people who HATE Jon beacuse he is "Son of Ice and Fire, Azor Azhul and Promised Prince, King Arthur, The Chosen One" and so on.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Missandei and Grey Worm is literally matching up the only two black characters left in the entire show. This is very conventional.

It is also a relationship that so far only exists in the show, so has nothing to do with GRR Martin. And in contrast to Dany and Jon (so far not written by Martin either) both characters are minor enough for it to be possibly an invention by Benioff and Weiss.

And neither Gendry and Arya nor Brienne and Jaime are in a relationship in any medium so far. This might change. There's a realistic chance for it in both cases. But I wouldn't take it for granted. Especially about an Arya/Gendry relationship we have no information at all, while the only Brienne/Jamie spoiler I remember is him dying in her arms (which even if it's true doesn't have to be romantic). 

[Happy Harpy]

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

I do like that the romantic plots we are getting in the final season include:

A character who was deemed too damaged, too far gone and a serial killer (Arya) with Gendry, a character deemed ugly and unfeminine (Brienne) with Jaime, a former slave Missandei and her eunuch lover GreyWorm, Fat Sam and Gilly, and finally the lady wielding the hard power Dany and the guy she considers a sweet boy - Jon.

None of these are conventional romances - so there's that in terms of GRRM breaking tropes.

I like that it's all kind of women and all kind of men, some traditionally feminine, some not, some alpha males, some not. There isn't one "model" of feminity that is deemed worthy of romance, unlike in toxic parts of internet fandoms. Most aren't too far from tropes, Sweet Polly Oliver Arya with the nice hunk who kept her secret, Beauty and the Beast Jaime & Brienne, prince and princess Jon & Dany...But it only depends on which perspective you look, and that's where it's clever. For all "Disney" that it was touted, the prince and the princess as endgame would mean nephew x aunt as endgame, LOL. Of course, they're the same age, they didn't grow up together, and it's not worse than many dynasties over the ages (Egypt) or the inbreeding among the aristocracy in the Middle Ages (when I look at some branches of my family tree, ouch!). But still, pretty subversive :))

The only pairing my shipdar pinged and they aren't doing, it seems, is Sansa and Tyrion. It's a pity, I really liked their interactions back in S2/S4 and I liked the perspective of them as a power couple in name, then friendship turning to deeper feelings with time. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

The only pairing my shipdar pinged and they aren't doing, it seems, is Sansa and Tyrion. It's a pity, I really liked their interactions back in S2/S4 and I liked the perspective of them as a power couple in name, then friendship turning to deeper feelings with time. 

They pinged for me as well in the show, but it's definitely not happening. If anything, it seems like their previously sweet relationship will end horribly with Sansa denouncing Tyrion as a traitor to the Starks and Tyrion dying horribly. Oh, well. It's a long form of Tyrion/Shae, I guess, who had a much sweeter relationship in the show but ended horribly as they did in book canon. I didn't think Gendrya would be a thing, and they're definitely going somewhere with that. You win some, you lose some, I guess.

Is anyone skeptical about this idea that the WWs have some motivation beyond what we've been told? The writers are awfully free with giving answers instead of demurring or saying it will be explained later on. Their origin? Created by the COTF as living weapons. Their motivation? Kill everyone. Will the NK ever speak? No. The spiral symbols? A mockery of the symbols the COTF use (as Dave Hill said). It was BoatsexBaby who claimed that the resolution of the WW storyline would be brilliant and explain everything from the first scene, but is there anything really left to be explained?

...I'm left wondering whether the WW storyline will be wrapped up in 8x03 and all the focus on the WWs is just a distraction from the real fight in the back half of S8 against a very human enemy. If that's the case, it would make sense to deal with the WWs summarily in 8x03 and then save the real battle for human/human fighting. I noticed that in the group photo of all the stuntmen/women from late June 2018, there were lots of soldiers and smallfolk but not a single wight or WW.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They pinged for me as well in the show, but it's definitely not happening. If anything, it seems like their previously sweet relationship will end horribly with Sansa outing Tyrion as a traitor to the Starks and Tyrion dying horribly.

I think Sansa trusts Tyrion - as far as Sophie Turner's behind the scenes interviews go. And D&D mentioned that Sansa would have been more welcoming of Tyrion had he not come as Dany's Hand of the Queen. She just dislikes him currently because he's with Dany.

Tyrion on the other hand still seems to hold onto a little grudge about Sansa leaving him behind to bear the brunt of the events of the purple wedding.

I don't think we are going to get romance, but this will be an interesting relationship to watch.

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Is anyone skeptical about this idea that the WWs have some motivation beyond what we've been told? The writers are awfully free with giving answers instead of demurring or saying it will be explained later on. Their origin? Created by the COTF as living weapons. Their motivation? Kill everyone. Will the NK ever speak? No. The spiral symbols? A mockery of the symbols the COTF use (as Dave Hill said). It was BoatsexBaby who claimed that the resolution of the WW storyline would be brilliant and explain everything from the first scene, but is there anything really left to be explained?

No, I think there will be an explanation for the White Walkers. There has to be. ASoIaF is first and foremost fantasy and the Others are it's primary antagonists.  I think GRRM has mentioned that they are not just evil and that there's more to it than that and considering the similarities between his series and Memory, Sorrow and Thorn I think the secret to their existence will be used by Bran, Jon and Arya to defeat them.

Isaac talking about Bran being the NK's arch nemesis is also interesting in terms of the 3ER/Bloodraven and what his connection is to this whole thing.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

46 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Is anyone skeptical about this idea that the WWs have some motivation beyond what we've been told? The writers are awfully free with giving answers instead of demurring or saying it will be explained later on. Their origin? Created by the COTF as living weapons. Their motivation? Kill everyone. Will the NK ever speak? No. The spiral symbols? A mockery of the symbols the COTF use (as Dave Hill said). It was BoatsexBaby who claimed that the resolution of the WW storyline would be brilliant and explain everything from the first scene, but is there anything really left to be explained? 

Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner said, that the Night King is the character with the most shocking reveal (?) in the last Season.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Even worse is how people on Tumblr have lately been comparing Jon/Dany to the Stockholm Syndrome that was Joffrey and Sansa. Seriously. I know Dany has gotten more ruthless lately, but comparing her to Joffrey?! That's a little extreme. Plus, Dany actually cares about what Jon does and thinks, encouraging Jon to ride the dragon wasn't "endangering his life" as theses guys claim. Geez...

In the end is she different though ?

Danny wants to do good, Joffrey doesn't give a shit, but when push comes to shove, they both retreat to their perceived strengths; Joffrey and his crossbow and KG, and Danny to fire and her dragons.

Neither gets them what they want, and the PR is a bust.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, nikma said:

Tbh all stans are annoying. Not only Sansa's, but Jon's(most of all IMO), Arya's, LF's, Stannis', Jaime's, Dany's and so on.

Only Cersei's stans are fine lol. They know she is crazy bitch, but they like Lena. 

Yeah, there is Dany hate wagon. But there is even bigger Sansa hate wagon. 

And I completely disagree that there are not a lot of people who HATE Jon beacuse he is "Son of Ice and Fire, Azor Azhul and Promised Prince, King Arthur, The Chosen One" and so on.

I wish i could like this a Million times because it's so freaking true.

[anamika]

Quote

Nearly every character on Game of Thrones has undergone a substantial journey across eight seasons, but which of the twenty-some series regulars has shown the most growth and change?

Showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss had an answer to that question during a recent interview with EW.

“Sansa,” declared Benioff. “She started out so naive and was forced to undergo the most brutal possible education into the world but emerged from it and became this powerful figure and kind of against all odds. I don’t think too many people watching the first season had any expectation that Sansa would become the woman that she became. And part of that is the story and part of that is Sophie Turner and the phenom she turned out to be as an actress. We knew when we cast Sophie that she was this really good child actor but we had no idea she’d become the force that’s she’s become. So if I had to pick one, I’d pick Sansa.”

Weiss agreed with Benioff’s choice, though added that Bran Stark has, obviously, undergone quite a transformation as well — though Bran’s case is a bit unusual as the bulk of his evolution is due to magical influence after he abruptly became the Three-Eyed Raven, a repository and accessor of unfathomable quantities of information, rather than standard character progression.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/18/game-of-thrones-character-change/

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I think Sansa trusts Tyrion - as far as Sophie Turner's behind the scenes interviews go. And D&D mentioned that Sansa would have been more welcoming of Tyrion had he not come as Dany's Hand of the Queen. She just dislikes him currently because he's with Dany.

Tyrion on the other hand still seems to hold onto a little grudge about Sansa leaving him behind to bear the brunt of the events of the purple wedding.

I don't think we are going to get romance, but this will be an interesting relationship to watch.

No, I think there will be an explanation for the White Walkers. There has to be. ASoIaF is first and foremost fantasy and the Others are it's primary antagonists.  I think GRRM has mentioned that they are not just evil and that there's more to it than that and considering the similarities between his series and Memory, Sorrow and Thorn I think the secret to their existence will be used by Bran, Jon and Arya to defeat them.

Isaac talking about Bran being the NK's arch nemesis is also interesting in terms of the 3ER/Bloodraven and what his connection is to this whole thing.

59 minutes ago, anamika said:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/18/game-of-thrones-character-change/

I wonder if Sansa sniffing out and denouncing Tyrion’s treason is the reason for all these cast and crew interviews talking up Sansa as the smartest and specialest.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

I do like that the romantic plots we are getting in the final season include:

A character who was deemed too damaged, too far gone and a serial killer (Arya) with Gendry, a character deemed ugly and unfeminine (Brienne) with Jaime, a former slave Missandei and her eunuch lover GreyWorm, Fat Sam and Gilly, and finally the lady wielding the hard power Dany and the guy she considers a sweet boy - Jon.

None of these are conventional romances - so there's that in terms of GRRM breaking tropes.

I'd disagree that most of those are unconventional.  Indeed, for a long time one of the biggest arguments in fandom over Jon/Dany was precisely that it was so predictable and conventional that it shouldn't have any place in what was supposedly such a subversive story.

Brienne/Jaime is likewise a pretty standard Beauty and the Beast story, with the only slight twist being that the "beast" is female, which is somewhat unusual.

Arya/Gendry is a pretty conventional pairing as well.

Quote

Or Lyanna Mormont  suddenly caring more about the politics of Jon bending the knee than the AOTD threat.

That's not a retcon.  She was opposed to Jon going to treat with Dany in Season 7; her position in 801 is quite consistent with that.

3 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Missandei and Grey Worm is literally matching up the only two black characters left in the entire show. This is very conventional.

It is also a relationship that so far only exists in the show, so has nothing to do with GRR Martin. And in contrast to Dany and Jon (so far not written by Martin either) both characters are minor enough for it to be possibly an invention by Benioff and Weiss.

Grey Worm/Missandei is definitely a show invention, since the book Missandei is ten years old.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Is anyone skeptical about this idea that the WWs have some motivation beyond what we've been told?

Indeed, while there might be a bit more detail to his precise plans (such as the presumed targeting of Bran), I don't see any reason to think there's much more coming about the White Walkers.  The show has been singularly uninterested in them, I would say; they shoved in two exposition flashbacks at the last second that showed us "the White Walkers are machines who want to kill everybody", Bran basically took that in stride, nobody else has even raised a question about their motivations, and all they've done in the series is exactly what you'd expect them to do, i.e., kill all humans.

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

deed, while there might be a bit more detail to his precise plans (such as the presumed targeting of Bran), I don't see any reason to think there's much more coming about the White Walkers.  The show has been singularly uninterested in them, I would say; they shoved in two exposition flashbacks at the last second that showed us "the White Walkers are machines who want to kill everybody", Bran basically took that in stride, nobody else has even raised a question about their motivations, and all they've done in the series is exactly what you'd expect them to do, i.e., kill all humans.

I’m wondering if they are gonna pull the NK and his white walkers are actually the good guys all along and Bran AKA the Three Eyed Raven is the Villain type of ending 😳

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[nikma]

I mean what kind of "morally grey" motivation army that is using dead people can even have? lol

And that fact, that even now, only 5 episodes from the end of the show, the story is still only about humans and their relationships, means that WW are just backdrop for politics and human drama.