S18.E20: American Dream / S18.E21: Sanctuary

[Bobbin]

If characters didn't behave irrationally, there wouldn't be any police procedurals. Or fan forums.

Not to beat the Yusef arc to death, so to speak, but everyone seems to be missing the point. He was outnumbered 3 to 1, he was convinced that calling the police, ever, would guarantee his being turned over to ICE, which meant deportation and a certain, gruesome death back home. Personally, having been present at a grocery store robberry, I can attest that options look different when you're looking down the barrell of a shotgun held by a hopped up teenager whose partner is loudly threatening to blow the manager's head off. I have no delusions that I could have wrestled the gun away from him without shots being fired. As for the skirt comment, Yusef was gay, but still a devout Muslim, just like there are gay Christians. He was also human, and all that goes with it.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Bobbin
Added thoughts.

[devious455]

It didn't feel like a season finale. One episode would be enough for this case. There were many unnecessary scenes and plot lines and the storytelling lacked. I would expect that the finale would bring some change, that something significant would happen. I guess the new showrunner can start with a clean slate now. Unlike Eid who had to deal with Benson's ridiculous relationship and Mike's death. But I would expect him to go with more of a bang. That disappointed me. 

I still don't know how to feel about Barba's change from very ethical person to means justifies the end' kinda guy. I guess his job and all the injustice took a toll on him. How many times did Benson lie on the stand or did something unethical yet she draws a line in case like this? Sure. 

Rollins was a badass and I like her more and more. Fin was great too. But he should act more commanding instead of reporting his findings to Carisi. Like what the hell? And why did Carisi let Yusef go to the protest when he was supposed to protect him? I can't help but he is such a incompetent moron. This and the season opener combined, he indirectly helped like 4 people to get killed. Great job. Also why is Scanavino speaking like he has no teeth? I could understand actors who played immigrants better. That's not acting that just obnoxious. Kirk Acavedo will forever be Eddie Garcia for me. Season 15 didn't happen 10 years ago. What were they thinking?

To sum the season up. I liked that there was much less pandering the the delusional fans from twitter therefore less personal drama in the show. I hoped that trial part would get stronger but it got even weaker. Barba seemed like less than average lawyer who can't win the case without Benson. The characters weren't true to themselves too many times and some plots were awful. Lots of lazy writing but that's not new. Season 17 was awful too. So let's hope for some quality in the next season. I wish I could be excited to watch the show again. Now it feels like a chore.  

[TigerLynx]

I don't care what religion someone is or isn't.  If they want their civil liberties and freedom protected, and their life choices to be respected, then they should do the same in return.  Yusef doesn't want to be persecuted for being gay, but he'll criticize his niece (who was brutally raped) about the skirt she wears.  Yusef is a hypocrite and part of the problem.

[Bobbin]

9 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Yusef is a hypocrite and part of the problem.

It always comes down to whose ox is being gored.

[CelticBlackCat]

1 hour ago, Bobbin said:

If characters didn't behave irrationally, there wouldn't be any police procedurals. Or fan forums.

Not to beat the Yusef arc to death, so to speak, but everyone seems to be missing the point. He was outnumbered 3 to 1, he was convinced that calling the police, ever, would guarantee his being turned over to ICE, which meant deportation and a certain, gruesome death back home. Personally, having been present at a grocery store robberry, I can attest that options look different when you're looking down the barrell of a shotgun held by a hopped up teenager whose partner is loudly threatening to blow the manager's head off. I have no delusions that I could have wrestled the gun away from him without shots being fired. As for the skirt comment, Yusef was gay, but still a devout Muslim, just like there are gay Christians. He was also human, and all that goes with it.

As the sister being a devout Muslim, I don't understand why she would wear her hijab yet wear a short skirt.

[CelticBlackCat]

I didn't like the Mandatory Noah scene.  Olivia Benson, Lt. of the SVU, doesn't even look into the handy-dandy peephole before she swings open the door?  The Benson-Dodds encounter could have taken place in her office.  Now it looks like Dodds is a jerk who comes by at night without notice to talk to people, when business should be conducted in the office.  Or at least just phone her.

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, devious455 said:

And why did Carisi let Yusef go to the protest when he was supposed to protect him? I can't help but he is such a incompetent moron.

No, Yusef didn't go to the protest. He went to buy cigarettes, the store of which happened to be where a protest is taking place.

[devious455]

Just now, slowpoked said:

No, Yusef didn't go to the protest. He went to buy cigarettes, the store of which happened to be where a protest is taking place.

They could go to a different bodega. Or he should not let him to go anywhere.  Yusef was in danger yet they went for a walk like nothing was happening. He was supposed to protect him, he failed, the guy is probably dead. Carisi is incompetent. 

 

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't care what religion someone is or isn't.  If they want their civil liberties and freedom protected, and their life choices to be respected, then they should do the same in return.  Yusef doesn't want to be persecuted for being gay, but he'll criticize his niece (who was brutally raped) about the skirt she wears.  Yusef is a hypocrite and part of the problem.

He didn't want to be killed because of his orientation but he dared to criticize his niece's clothes so he kinda deserved it, right? The hell? He wasn't perfect but who is? I felt sorry for him. 

[TigerLynx]

19 minutes ago, devious455 said:

He didn't want to be killed because of his orientation but he dared to criticize his niece's clothes so he kinda deserved it, right? The hell? He wasn't perfect but who is? I felt sorry for him. 

I didn't say he deserved to be killed.  I said he was part of the problem.  Just like the racist white woman who didn't like her husband beating up on her, but was willing to lie and give him an alibi so he wouldn't be sent to prison for killing and raping an innocent girl, until Benson pointed out to the woman that the next time her husband killed someone it might be her.  Yusef, Soledad, racist white woman, etc., couldn't be bothered with doing the right thing, and telling the truth about a horrible rape and murder crime.

[MikeWhitf87]

3 hours ago, devious455 said:

Fin was great too. But he should act more commanding instead of reporting his findings to Carisi. Like what the hell?

Exactly! They do that not only with Fin but Amanda also. When did they start answering to Carisi too? That's one main reason why I don't care for that character.

[wknt3]

6 hours ago, 25thID said:

P.S. One last rant- St Benson threatening the ICE agent along with Greasy, I mean Carisi made me seriously shake my head. "I've been doing this a long time." Oh, okay! Let me get my boss! You convinced me! Give me a break. She straight up threatened him, then she admitted it, and he caved in. Yeah, that was TOTALLY believeable. I could see her maybe using some other backdoor way in, but to just use the line of "You're new, I've done this longer than you, blah blah blah yakity shmakity" was weak.

Yeah that was a perfect example of the problems with both the writing and Benson's current portrayal. Think about how Van Buren or Cragen would have handled it. The focus would be on how they were running point on the most important investigation in the entire NYPD at the moment instead of how many friends they had. And when the agent asked if they were being threatened the response would have been something along the lines of "Threatening? I'm just telling you the facts of life. I'm briefing the NYPD brass up to the commissioner himself everyday and I have reporters calling me all the time. You think you are having problems with lack of cooperation now? Just wait until that becomes active opposition. And what do you think will happen when your name leaks to the press as the individual responsible for making the decision impeding this investigation? Do you think even your agency's supporters will like the idea of letting a rapist murderer go free? Now that we understand each other I want to speak to your supervisor immediately." It would have been both less egotistical and self righteous and more bad ass at the same time. I have no problem with the idea of the scene - it's the execution and the idea that Benson can convince anyone to do anything with righteous indignation or moral rectitude and they don't need to actually put it on the page and convince us.

[Gigglepuff]

15 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I have no problem with the idea of the scene - it's the execution and the idea that Benson can convince anyone to do anything with righteous indignation or moral rectitude and they don't need to actually put it on the page and convince us.

Great point! Benson does this sort of thing all the time. Waltzes in and just expects that everyone drop everything and do her bidding immediately. No wonder why people - suspects, witnesses, victims, even her own colleagues - get their backs up with her so quickly. Of course, it's all a ploy to make Benson appear bad ass and heroic. It's getting old though. In that scene last night, I was kind of wishing that the ICE supervisor (?) would have slapped some cuffs on her. (can you be arrested for being annoying? lol) Benson is one of those people that makes you wonder, "who the hell does she think she is?" a lot of the time. She wanders into whatever scenario and demands immediate respect and attention while failing to give it to anyone else. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Gigglepuff

[25thID]

1 hour ago, wknt3 said:

Yeah that was a perfect example of the problems with both the writing and Benson's current portrayal. Think about how Van Buren or Cragen would have handled it. The focus would be on how they were running point on the most important investigation in the entire NYPD at the moment instead of how many friends they had. And when the agent asked if they were being threatened the response would have been something along the lines of "Threatening? I'm just telling you the facts of life. I'm briefing the NYPD brass up to the commissioner himself everyday and I have reporters calling me all the time. You think you are having problems with lack of cooperation now? Just wait until that becomes active opposition. And what do you think will happen when your name leaks to the press as the individual responsible for making the decision impeding this investigation? Do you think even your agency's supporters will like the idea of letting a rapist murderer go free? Now that we understand each other I want to speak to your supervisor immediately." It would have been both less egotistical and self righteous and more bad ass at the same time. I have no problem with the idea of the scene - it's the execution and the idea that Benson can convince anyone to do anything with righteous indignation or moral rectitude and they don't need to actually put it on the page and convince us.

I agree. I didn't have a problem with the scene, but the writing. There are ways to handle business diplomatically, while still being badass. Even buttering him up a little would have been tolerable to me. You can go through unofficial channels effectively, and still come across as badass or whatever. I'm not a total expert, but, the way St Benson handled that probably would've shut down their little investigation pretty damn fast; they really didn't do themselves ANY favors, and, probably made it impossible to get anything else done or get any more information. Bravo, writers and St Benson....Bravo.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't care what religion someone is or isn't.  If they want their civil liberties and freedom protected, and their life choices to be respected, then they should do the same in return.  Yusef doesn't want to be persecuted for being gay, but he'll criticize his niece (who was brutally raped) about the skirt she wears.  Yusef is a hypocrite and part of the problem.

I'm not sure what the point was. He might have been thinking that the short skirt would attract rapists without thinking it was immoral for her to wear it. After all, he was doing everything he could to prevent being killed for being gay while accepting his own non-Islam-approved gender identity, so maybe he just thought she should take a similar degree of protective measures, but he would have been accepting of, for instance, if she decided to have a sexual relationship with someone outside of marriage. He did sort of walk back the skirt comment right after it was out of his mouth.

Edited May 26, 2017 by shapeshifter
word-o

[skittl3862]

I didn't like this episode. Not the worst ever, not the worst this season (No Surrender is the answer for both those) but the writing was clunky to the point of cringe-worthy. This episode went so far beyond heavy-handed.

Where do I even start? This whole episode was like a smorgasbord of every real life buzz issue- the rise in hate crimes, the Muslim ban, ICE deportations, sanctuary cities, protesting, Syria. It was too much. Every single one of these issues could have been addressed in their own episode instead of devoting an entire season to "Pretty White Woman Raped by Rich White Man" stories and cramming all the brown people into the finale.

And literally all the brown people. The Muslims versus Latinos rivalry that they set up in the first hour was odd. It that even a thing in real life? I wouldn't think those ethnic groups would have much overlap, let alone enough to justify the anti-Latino comments made by the Muslims and vice versa.

I hated how every single SVU character has the same educated liberal leftist coastal elitist (pick your term) opinions on immigration, and every single guest actor made some sort of racially offensive comment. Even the minorities. Sorry, I don't buy that 50-something Irish American NYPD Chief Dodds is some social justice warrior Mary Sue who is very upset about deporting illegal immigrants, and shocked at the thought of hate crimes occurring in NYC, that Rollins is from the south and is A-OK on illegal immigration, and we don't get a throwaway line from Carisi about how his grandparents learned English when they moved here. I mean, look at this thread alone, there are people with differing opinions. I don't buy that every single character has a super-PC attitude about these complex social issues. We used to see disagreements on issues within the squad- Benson and Stabler clashing on LGBT issues, Benson and Fin clashing on porn.  Now the SVU squad all speak like they are starring in a sensitivity training video from human resources.

Why was the entire trial about IDing the perps? A double rape, double homicide by 3 drunk guys and there's literally no physical evidence to tie them to the crime scene? They brought in Yusef, Hector, Soledad and Carleen all for the sake of making this ID stick; they couldn't have cast a single CSU tech to say "I have DNA and partial prints!"? Remember when SVU used to solve crimes based on evidence? All that effort just for Carleen to say "Yeah, my husband has no alibi for that night" doesn't put him or the other guy in the restaurant.

I was really bothered- especially in an episode where they are literally lecturing us about racism- by Benson blackmailing the Hispanic wife with ICE deportation because she wouldn't cooperate and not give her husband an alibi, but addressing the white wife of the racist rapist murderer as a poor sad abuse victim for backing her husband's alibi. We get an overt microaggression where the white woman gets preferential treatment from Olivia Benson for the same crime. The Latina is threatened and the white woman is coddled. What the hell, show?

Alvarez has aged horribly.

Edited May 26, 2017 by skittl3862

[HunterHunted]

28 minutes ago, skittl3862 said:

And literally all the brown people. The Muslims versus Latinos rivalry that they set up in the first hour was odd. It that even a thing in real life? I wouldn't think those ethnic groups would have much overlap, let alone enough to justify the anti-Latino comments made by the Muslims and vice versa.

I hated how every single SVU character has the same educated liberal leftist coastal elitist (pick your term) opinions on immigration, and every single guest actor made some sort of racially offensive comment. Even the minorities. Sorry, I don't buy that 50-something Irish American NYPD Chief Dodds is some social justice warrior Mary Sue who is very upset about deporting illegal immigrants, and shocked at the thought of hate crimes occurring in NYC, that Rollins is from the south and is A-OK on illegal immigration, and we don't get a throwaway line from Carisi about how his grandparents learned English when they moved here. I mean, look at this thread alone, there are people with differing opinions. I don't buy that every single character has a super-PC attitude about these complex social issues. We used to see disagreements on issues within the squad- Benson and Stabler clashing on LGBT issues, Benson and Fin clashing on porn.  Now the SVU squad all speak like they are starring in a sensitivity training video from human resources.

A lot of the bodegas, mini-marts, and convenience stores in Black and Latino areas that used to be owned and/or operated by Korean-Americans and people of East Asian descent switched over to being owned and operated by Muslim people of Southeast Asian, Middle Eastern, or North African descent in the late 90s and early aughts. This happened in a ton of cities, not just New York.

I live in Texas right now and many of the sheriffs and police chiefs (as in their professional organizations) have been emphatically against a bill that would prohibit cities from being sanctuary cities and refusing to honor ICE detained requests. They have legitimate reasons for objecting to the bill. Adhering to ICE requests overtaxes their jails, which are already overburdened and stretched to capacity, especially if the individual is in jail for nonviolent crimes. The law enforcement professionals would much rather bond the undocumented person who is in jail for unpaid fees or shoplifting so that they have room for dangerous, violent, or are highly recidivistic inmates. The other issue is that these ICE raids and the perceived threat of deportation has already had a chilling effect on people reporting crimes in immigrant communities. Their complaint is that these things are making the communities that they serve more dangerous and it could allow criminals to get a significant foothold in their cities before the police have the opportunity to intervene.

[Tdoc72]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 2:43 AM, JyDanzig said:

 

I would disagree that the white racists were overdone -- I was having the opposite reaction, marveling at how on point they were.  Anyone thinking they didn't feel like real people should come by my uncle's 4th of July BBQ, where you will be sadly disabused of the notion that this was unrealistic dialogue.

 

I agree.  The dialogue was sadly very realistic.

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 3:03 AM, Xeliou66 said:

 

There were some memorable lines, the racist killer's "that must've been the Mexican :they like tequila, and they like raping, just ask the President" was the best dark humor line SVU has had in a long time, I didn't expect them to take such a direct shot at Trump and I laughed out loud :

 

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 3:33 AM, JyDanzig said:

Dodds also referred to Trump as "that crazy thug down in DC", an even more direct shot, coming from the mouth of one of our heroes.

 

17 hours ago, frogprof said:

I laughed at the foodie-couple male half's snarky comment: "Oh, that's right -- we don't HAVE an EPA anymore!" BOOM. SVU writers don't like 45 right from the beginning.

No, I don't think they like him much at all.  They have a Trump-esque episode sitting in the vault that I would sell my soul to see.  Originally they were going to show it before the election, then decided to postpone until after.  Once 45 won, they've said they don't know if they'll ever show it.  Gary Cole, whom I adore, plays the Trump-ish politician.

11 hours ago, slowpoked said:

No, Yusef didn't go to the protest. He went to buy cigarettes, the store of which happened to be where a protest is taking place.

I think the protest was at the restaurant which was located next to the bodega.  I assumed the family lived in an apartment either above the restaurant or very nearby.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Tdoc72

[psychoticstate]

I have watched SVU from the beginning but I'm done with this show.  I don't need to be lectured on political issues when I'm watching tv for entertainment.  From the "all Mexicans are rapists" to "just ask the president" to making at least one of the raping, murdering scumbags a wife beater and possessing what sounded to me like a southern accent, I found the episode stereotypical crap and insulting to everyone.  Way to stir the pot and fan the flames of an already frustrating situation, SVU.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

In Which A Hail Of Preachy Anvils Flattens Any Desire To Watch Law & Order: SVU

A quintessentially Season 18 double episode -- well intended and acted, but self-righteous and clumsy -- tries to tell us what to think about immigration policy.

[skittl3862]

14 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

A lot of the bodegas, mini-marts, and convenience stores in Black and Latino areas that used to be owned and/or operated by Korean-Americans and people of East Asian descent switched over to being owned and operated by Muslim people of Southeast Asian, Middle Eastern, or North African descent in the late 90s and early aughts. This happened in a ton of cities, not just New York.

I'm aware they interact, I guess I meant overlap in the sense of racial friction between Middle Eastern Muslims and Hispanics and whether this was a known thing or if SVU invented it.

Edited May 26, 2017 by skittl3862

[bikebrh]

Well, it looks like Emma Myles has gotten typecast as "Meth-head or Meth-head Adjacent White Trash". I hope for her sake she can break out of that, because I don't see it as the type of typecasting you build a long successful career out of.

[shksabelle]

"Supporting the 'crazy talk' down in DC."  "Been bad since the election."  "There is no more EPA." 

Any more hammers to hit us over the head with?  If Wolf wants to do op-ed pieces, he should contact the newspapers. 

Click. Bye. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by shksabelle
Fixed typo

[watcher1006]

On 5/25/2017 at 11:17 AM, Gigglepuff said:

Probably the best thing about this episode was the acting from the guests stars. They were better than anything we've seen all season, and I think they ran circles around most of the main cast. 

This has always been a characteristic of the New York City based Law & Order franchise. The city being the live stage capital of the country, there is always a large pool of accomplished stage actors to tap for guest roles. I recall years ago one of the regulars (I can't remember which of the L&O's it was) expressing envy that the best acting parts tended to go to the guest stars.

On 5/25/2017 at 4:49 PM, devious455 said:

They could go to a different bodega. Or he should not let him to go anywhere.  Yusef was in danger yet they went for a walk like nothing was happening. He was supposed to protect him, he failed, the guy is probably dead. Carisi is incompetent. 

 

He didn't want to be killed because of his orientation but he dared to criticize his niece's clothes so he kinda deserved it, right? The hell? He wasn't perfect but who is? I felt sorry for him. 

Yes, I would think Carisi should have kept him out of sight as much as possible. And given the volatile nature of the case and the extreme publicity it had garnered, shouldn't Hector have been given more protection as well? So many people out for blood, he seemed to me a prime candidate for police protective custody.

About the white supremacist's wife's testimony - my impression was that the defense did put her on the stand expecting her to provide an alibi for her husband the night of the restaurant attack. Of course the surprise testimony blew up the defense's case. My understanding is that a spouse of a suspect cannot be compelled to testify, so Barba could not have put her on the stand if she wasn't planning to cooperate with him. If she was planning to cooperate with Barba and he'd called her to the stand, the shocker would have come out under Barba's examination, not the cross examination of the defense.

Edited May 28, 2017 by watcher1006
Deletion

[wknt3]

7 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Yes, I would think Carisi should have kept him out of sight as much as possible. And given the volatile nature of the case and the extreme publicity it had garnered, shouldn't Hector have been given more protection as well? So many people out for blood, he seemed to me a prime candidate for police protective custody.

You must be new here. This was pretty much SVU standard procedure. Like back doors and bullet proof vests, keeping protected witnesses out of sight in a new location and away from crowds is for suckers. In fact they probably did a little better than usual as they weren't directly responsible for the episode's hostage situation and didn't make it worse. As far as blaming Carisi, remember he is fairly new and was trained by a CO who blunders into at least two standoffs a year by not waiting for back up and doesn't even look at the peephole when someone knocks on her door so he probably didn't know any better.

[shapeshifter]

On 5/26/2017 at 3:20 AM, Tdoc72 said:

I agree.  The dialogue was sadly very realistic.

 

 

No, I don't think they like him much at all.  They have a Trump-esque episode sitting in the vault that I would sell my soul to see.  Originally they were going to show it before the election, then decided to postpone until after.  Once 45 won, they've said they don't know if they'll ever show it.  Gary Cole, whom I adore, plays the Trump-ish politician.

I think the protest was at the restaurant which was located next to the bodega.  I assumed the family lived in an apartment either above the restaurant or very nearby.

Was this un-aired episode featuring a Trump-like character from this season or the end of the previous season?
Regardless, would it be included on the DVD?
Do we know its title?

 

1 hour ago, wknt3 said:

You must be new here. This was pretty much SVU standard procedure. Like back doors and bullet proof vests, keeping protected witnesses out of sight in a new location and away from crowds is for suckers. In fact they probably did a little better than usual as they weren't directly responsible for the episode's hostage situation and didn't make it worse. As far as blaming Carisi, remember he is fairly new and was trained by a CO who blunders into at least two standoffs a year by not waiting for back up and doesn't even look at the peephole when someone knocks on her door so he probably didn't know any better.

Heh. So true.
When they had the sister throw in the line defending Carisi because it was her brother's cigarette smoking habit that got him pinched, I figured this was to telegraph that Carisi wan't going to be the focus of any future, related arc on the subject (and that they had pretty much covered the topic to death--no pun intended?).

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

was trained by a CO who blunders into at least two standoffs a year by not waiting for back up and doesn't even look at the peephole when someone knocks on her door

Something about the exasperated tone of this made my morning. Still laughing.

[devious455]

6 hours ago, wknt3 said:

As far as blaming Carisi, remember he is fairly new and was trained by a CO who blunders into at least two standoffs a year by not waiting for back up and doesn't even look at the peephole when someone knocks on her door so he probably didn't know any better.

I love how every time when Carisi does something wrong people are finding reasons to defend him and explain that it wasn't actually his fault. And Benson didn't train him, but it's so popular to blame her for everything. Even if you are just joking. He isn't a rookie. He is basically a lead male character who is doing most of the investigation and interrogation besides Benson every week. He is written like a golden boy who knows everything, always saves a day and is perfect in every regard. They finally wrote him few mishaps and make him slightly more human. Yet people can't accept it because precious Carisi can't do anything wrong. If Rollins did the same thing people would crucify her. I don't understand blind adoration. That's not against you but it's very typical for Carisi's fans for some reason. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by devious455

[25thID]

1 hour ago, devious455 said:

I love how every time when Carisi does something wrong people are finding reasons to defend him and explain that it wasn't actually his fault.

I've never really been a fan of Carisi. I wasn't a big fan of Amaro, at first, but he kind of grew on me after awhile. There's just something about Carisi that I don't like. He just kind of seems over the top for me, in some way. I think part of it is over acting, and the writing does make it seem like he is a golden child, or at least like he can do no wrong; he did start out really, really annoying (at least to me), and that did somewhat fade away a little, but, his character doesn't really do anything to me.

I understand this is "just" a tv show, and, granted, Stabler and Amaro weren't exactly oceans of depth, but Carisi strikes me as a cardboard cutout- he is pretty stiff, lacks depth, and is bigger than life (in the sense of a cardboard cutout being vividly colored, but lacking any substance.) That, topped with St Bensons' holier than thou, is kind of a recipe for disaster and very campy tv....at least to me.

P.S. I think he is unintentionally comedic fodder. If it's intentional, kudos to the horrible writers, even if it's really campy. My money is on the unintentional, though. Just his delivery on most of his lines comes across as really cheesy and like he's trying to act; it's just not natural and comes across as forced and unintentionally funny most of the time.

Edited May 28, 2017 by 25thID
I added a post script.

[JyDanzig]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Was this un-aired episode featuring a Trump-like character from this season or the end of the previous season?
Regardless, would it be included on the DVD?
Do we know its title?

It was called "Unstoppable."  From the beginning of this season.  If I had to guess, I'd bet it will never be released in the US, but maybe it will someday be downloadable from an international airing.  But who knows.

Here's the promo for it:

[devious455]

7 hours ago, 25thID said:

I've never really been a fan of Carisi. I wasn't a big fan of Amaro, at first, but he kind of grew on me after awhile. There's just something about Carisi that I don't like. He just kind of seems over the top for me, in some way. I think part of it is over acting, and the writing does make it seem like he is a golden child, or at least like he can do no wrong; he did start out really, really annoying (at least to me), and that did somewhat fade away a little, but, his character doesn't really do anything to me.

I understand this is "just" a tv show, and, granted, Stabler and Amaro weren't exactly oceans of depth, but Carisi strikes me as a cardboard cutout- he is pretty stiff, lacks depth, and is bigger than life (in the sense of a cardboard cutout being vividly colored, but lacking any substance.) That, topped with St Bensons' holier than thou, is kind of a recipe for disaster and very campy tv....at least to me.

P.S. I think he is unintentionally comedic fodder. If it's intentional, kudos to the horrible writers, even if it's really campy. My money is on the unintentional, though. Just his delivery on most of his lines comes across as really cheesy and like he's trying to act; it's just not natural and comes across as forced and unintentionally funny most of the time.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. For me the 70% of a problem is Peter's lack of acting skills. He is unable to fake an NY accent so he chooses to speak like a village idiot instead of just dropping it altogether. His mannerism is over the top for a serious show and he has no charisma. He seems like a nice guy so I don't want to trash him but he makes the show practically unwatchable for me. I'm so annoyed by him that I can't focus on the story. The writing doesn't help either. The character needs to have flaws to be believable. I'm not sure why they make him into cheap version of Barba. He wears the same clothes, wants to be prosecutor, meddles into cases, even though he lacks any experience he tells Barba what to do. He explain basic things to other characters like they are idiots. They are making him shine on expense of others and that's a bad writing. I really hope the new show-runner tones him down a lot or I won't be able to enjoy the show. I wasn't fan of Amaro or Stabler but he is the worst in terms of being insufferable and obnoxious. 

[Iguessnot]

On 5/25/2017 at 8:00 PM, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure what the point was. He might have been thinking that the short skirt would attract rapists without thinking it was immoral for her to wear it. After all, he was doing everything he could to prevent being killed for being gay while accepting his own non-Islam-approved gender identity, so maybe he just thought she should take a similar degree of protective measures, but he would have been accepting of, for instance, if she decided to have a sexual relationship with someone outside of marriage. He did sort of walk back the skirt comment right after it was out of his mouth.

There was no point. However the Writing 101 season 18 writers wanted to highlight items they think they know about Muslims, so we get these little soundbites and cliche setups throughout the show. It was ludicrous that Yusef who was openly gay within the family would care about that skirt she was wearing. It made no sense why she even wore that, except to have Yusef make that comment. Same way that the undocumented worker, Hector, is hooking up with a couple of white supremacists to get back wages. 

We know about middle eastern hospitality, but all these cops' visit aren't regular social calls, so can SVU stop with the beautifully arranged plates of delectables? This family is dealing with major crimes and two burials. Highlighting hostess skills was a silly.

Did it look to anyone else that Hector's wife was trying to stop herself from laughing when Liv was threatening her with ICE? At first I thought it was bravado, but she looked close to giggling. Either bad acting or Olivia had spinach in her teeth.

The show got better after an hour, but that about face by the wife and asking Liv to backup such a blatant lie along with having no evidence for no good reason was inexcusable. And what was with the wife's hijab sometimes being tucked in neatly and other times the edges all pulled out willy nilly while on the stand. Where are the continuity editors?

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Iguessnot said:

Where are the continuity editors?

Ran off to begin their summer break early?

[Xeliou66]

Carisi is a much more interesting character than Stabler and especially Amaro. Stabler had some depth during the show's first few years, but he became nothing but your stereotypical angry, narrow minded jerk detective with a ton of family baggage, a stock character if there ever was one. Amaro started out as a very interesting character in season 13, but the writers quickly ruined him and made him exactly like Stabler : an angry, conservative Catholic, narrow minded, judgmental ass hole who had a ton of family problems and routinely brought them to work. I was so glad when he left. 

Carisi on the other hand brings a breath of fresh air to the show IMO. He acts like a real person and not like a cliched cardboard character which is what Stabler and Amaro were. He makes some mistakes but he is a good detective overall, he occasionally gets angry but isn't a ball of rage like Stabler/Amaro. He doesn't bring family crap to work. He is a fairly devout Christian but he isn't a conservative or have any of the narrow minded bribery of Stabler and Amaro. His interest in the law has added another component. I really like what Carisi has added, he's been a nice change from the stock character of the angry narrow minded jerk cop with family drama of Stabler and Amaro.

[25thID]

I agree, yeah, Carisi seems nice; and the actor himself seems like a nice guy, but, for me, he is just written poorly. I was irked by what the writers did to Stabler with the weekly family melodrama and anger at the drop of a hat, and how they made Amaro into the almost spitting image of a later Stabler, so it was kind of refreshing to get someone who is single (no family drama, although I see them headed that way with his mystery girlfriend), and someone who is religious like Stabler and Amaro (but isn't over the top about it.....yet), and seems more reasonable. That being said, to me, he seems to just be a goofy character. He lacks a certain serious demeanor to me; whereas Stabler and Amaro were too angry and short fused, I would take them seriously and listen to them, because they: 1) seemed like they could get into your head B) seemed like they could "back it up," meaning that, yeah, you cant always manhandle perps, but I could see how they'd be able to walk the walk after talking the talk. I don't get that with Carisi. He just seems like he's not all bark with no bite- his bark is more like a yawn. I don't get the feeling he would be able to back himself up on threats, or to really get into your head. I just don't see him as someone who can REALLY dig deep to get the job done. He's not a bad detective, or guy, but, he just kind of seems to be "there;" not really good or bad, just kind of "is." Granted, his hands were tied with the ICE agents when they picked up Yusef, I could see Amaro and/or Stabler maybe being able to sweet talk/stall them long enough to do something; or at least be taken seriously enough to maybe get some sort of information from the ICE agents to go on to help Yusef.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Amaro or Stabler, or to totally bash Carisi, as, like you said, it WAS nice to see a different kind of detective than those two as a breath of fresh air, but it seems like he hasn't grown that much. He's been a police officer for awhile now, and has been with SVU long enough to have an idea about "how things work," so I'd think he'd have more of a tool bag/bag of tricks to use. Instead, we continue to get a character that struggles to scratch the surface in investigations and interviews. I guess I'm just saying that the writers are letting the Carisi character kind of get stagnant, and not develop him a little bit more. Again, I'm not trying to bash the character or the actor, but, Carisi just lacks any sort of depth or sense of being believable. He seems to be the same detective as he was on day one.

Edited May 29, 2017 by 25thID
i found a spelling error.

[wonderwoman]

On May 28, 2017 at 1:03 AM, watcher1006 said:

This has always been a characteristic of the New York City based Law & Order franchise. The city being the live stage capital of the country, there is always a large pool of accomplished stage actors to tap for guest roles. I recall years ago one of the regulars (I can't remember which of the L&O's it was) expressing envy that the best acting parts tended to go to the guest stars.

Back when the soaps were based in NYC, many a stage actor supplemented their income with stints (long and short) on soaps. Larry Bryggman, on As the World Turns, being a prime example. And I can't count how many NYC soap actors showed up as guest stars in the original L&O. 

On a related note, I caught an interview with Andy Karl (the late Mike Dodds) who's nominated for a Tony for his role in Groundhog Day, for which he won an Olivier in the UK last year. There was a lot of story left untold when he departed.

[Xeliou66]

What was the story left untold when Andy Karl departed? Do you mean there was behind the scenes stuff that people don't know about on the set? Or do you mean the character had a lot more to do before they killed him off? 

[wonderwoman]

No, I just thought there were some interesting emotional dynamics between him and his father, and him and Benson that would could have been explored which is why I wished they had written him out rather that killing the character, in case Andy Karl ever wanted to come back. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by wonderwoman

[watcher1006]

For my part, I first saw Raul Esparza on the live stage in the 2007 Broadway revival of Stephen Sondheim's musical Company playing the lead role of Bobby. Yes indeed, he sings! Videos of the musical can be seen on YouTube. It was a pleasant surprise a few years later to see him join L&O SVU.

[Gigglepuff]

8 hours ago, wonderwoman said:

This has always been a characteristic of the New York City based Law & Order franchise. The city being the live stage capital of the country, there is always a large pool of accomplished stage actors to tap for guest roles. I recall years ago one of the regulars (I can't remember which of the L&O's it was) expressing envy that the best acting parts tended to go to the guest stars.

Oh for sure. I'm well aware. The guests in this particular episode outshone most of the guests from earlier episodes and the main cast as well. I hate to say this, but it's as if Raul is dumbing it down big time this season. His acting used to be the bright spot on SVU. This season, he's had a few cringe inducing moments where he's chewing the hell out of the scenery. He's better than that.To see what was once a great character reduced to being Benson's lapdog is sad. I can't wait for the day to be able to see Raul in a more complex role. 

[LotusFlower]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:22 AM, Gigi43 said:

As other people mentioned, why were the two racists hanging with Spanish Hector who worked with Muslims? That didn't fit.

He said he knew them from another restaurant.  I can see it happening - shooting the breeze in the kitchen, talking about other jobs/restaurants....  In other words, they weren't really friends who hung out or knew each other - probably just friendly in the kitchen.  Hector probably bad-mouthed the family for firing him, so the two racists, filled with very current white nationalist rage, concocted the plan to rob them because they're "towel-heads," which Hector went along with because he wanted the money.  

[Lebanna]

On 25 May 2017 at 4:22 PM, Gigi43 said:

As other people mentioned, why were the two racists hanging with Spanish Hector who worked with Muslims? That didn't fit.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Hector wasn't Spanish. Just like not all English speakers are English and it would be weird to call them that. But, true, those racists would call him that for sure.

I guess some people are selectively racist? I've unfortunately known a few people who are very specific with what groups they hate. Hector was definitely a terrible picker of friends.

[DixonVixen2359]

Just caught up with this episode and I found the opening attack scene really graphic and brutal. It made me sick to my stomach. I felt the same way after watching the Terminus flashback on TWD where the women were getting pulled out of the train car kicking and screaming by those sadistic rapist bastards while Gareth and company watched in terror. (I really miss TWD). No sympathy for Hector and his idiot wife.

[skittl3862]

On 5/31/2017 at 6:22 PM, DixonVixen2359 said:

Just caught up with this episode and I found the opening attack scene really graphic and brutal. It made me sick to my stomach. I felt the same way after watching the Terminus flashback on TWD where the women were getting pulled out of the train car kicking and screaming by those sadistic rapist bastards while Gareth and company watched in terror. (I really miss TWD). No sympathy for Hector and his idiot wife.

Yes, I remember thinking that at the time. There have been a few other episodes this season with the assaults shown in the cold open as well. The show can't use the excuse "It's for the survivors!" to justify having garbage plots with 100% conviction rates, white young innocent female victims, and cases with no grey areas, only good and evil- all while depicting graphic assaults at the top of the hour. That's more triggering than a not-guilty verdict.

Edited June 2, 2017 by skittl3862

[CelticBlackCat]

I thought the opening attack scene was too much as well.  I liked it when we didn't see the violence, just the aftermath.

[Kel Varnsen]

Why was Hector even outside of the courthouse if he had pled guilty to 2nd degree murder?

Overall I thought this was a weird episode that was going to have a big twist to show how cases like this could easily spiral out of control and take a life of their own. I mean there first lead was Yousef who saw one guy and eye witnesses are notoriously inaccurate and no other evidence. He was deported before trial, so after Hector won't admit to anything they get his wife to testify against him under extreme duress (even if he was innocent she might have said he wasn't to save her kids). So then when he was arrested and told that if he doesn't name the other attackers he is going away for life (in that situation he might name anyone to save his ass). Then when Hector is killed one of the victims lies on the stand to put away the guys he named. It really wouldn't take much for that case to fall apart, but that would mean the show saying Liv was wrong.

 

 

On 5/25/2017 at 10:51 PM, skittl3862 said:

Why was the entire trial about IDing the perps? A double rape, double homicide by 3 drunk guys and there's literally no physical evidence to tie them to the crime scene?

 

[Spartan Girl]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:51 PM, skittl3862 said:

I was really bothered- especially in an episode where they are literally lecturing us about racism- by Benson blackmailing the Hispanic wife with ICE deportation because she wouldn't cooperate and not give her husband an alibi, but addressing the white wife of the racist rapist murderer as a poor sad abuse victim for backing her husband's alibi. We get an overt microaggression where the white woman gets preferential treatment from Olivia Benson for the same crime. The Latina is threatened and the white woman is coddled. What the hell, show?

After rewatching this episode—this! So much this! Don’t get me wrong, Soledad was awful, but the rapist’s wife was equally bad if not ten times worse, and somehow she’s more deserving of Liv’s biased sympathy just because she’s a “victim”? Ugh.