S05.E12: The World Council of Churches

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

As for her advice on not telling Henry, I'm not sure if that's suspicious or not: surely she hasn't forgotten the tragedy of the centre stepping in with Jared and telling him the truth without his parents knowledge or consent.

Henry isn't Jared by a long shot (sorry), but your basic point is sound.

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If Claudia suspects (correctly) that Elizabeth is only doing it because of Philip?

Claudia might think Elizabeth is only doing it because of Philip, but I don't. Philip wanting to stop is certainly a part of it, but I think Elizabeth does genuinely want to be done with the spy stuff and live in Russia. She's been doing this for a long time, and it's not as if the load is getting lighter. I think that last talk with Gabriel, when he said there was a cost to what they do, is what got her thinking more seriously about it.

[rehoboth]

13 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I think Pastor Groovyhair has a rather idealized view of the Soviet Union. It has already been established that he believes the USSR is a greater force for peace in the world than the USA.  He also clearly is sympathetic to Marxist views of the world.  Why else would he advocate unilateral nuclear disarmament by the United States?

I think he is more willing to condemn P&E's abilities as parents than to question the motives of the nation they work for.

Yes Pastor Groovyhair has always seen the world through rose colored glasses.  I think that P & E coming to him with their particular problems was their way of letting him "help."  Giving advice is his thing.  He hasn't given them up yet - even when his rational mind compared them to child abusers - and they are betting that he won't now.  Not when he has such a bright future.  I think P & E are following what they told Paige - the ruse has to be continued for another two months.  Keeping Pastor G close, keeping him in their loop gives them more control over him.  He's monitored anyway so they would have a head's up if he had any second thoughts about them.

And maybe they thought he might have some good advice for them.  Even a stopped clock ....

But P & E are not going off the KGB reservation - they are still working him.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, jjj said:

I got the feeling that Oleg made a decision in those final scenes with his father, his mother washing up in the kitchen, and then wandering the streets.  It all felt very ominous, like he was getting a last look at his mother before he left.  Misdirection?  Or did I miss something? 

It was very ominous, particularly when he pulled his collar up around his neck and walked off.  I have the sense that Oleg is resigned to this fate and that makes me sad. He is one of the few that I would like to come away unscathed.

[Umbelina]

Pastor Tim is probably more aware of the world than the Jennings.  He's traveled quite a bit, he's lived in South America before, and he's spent a lot of time in third world countries.  He's liberal, but he's also walking his talk for the most part.  He's able to read Marx and see some truths there.

However, his entire life is devoted to Christianity, it's his job, it's his guiding force.  He didn't accept Marx's view on that.  When he spoke with Paige a while ago he made sure to ask if she was praying.  It's her soul he cares about, as much as her body.  He wouldn't think the USSR would be OK for a young, devout, Christian girl for obvious reasons.  His mind is open but his brains haven't completely fallen out.

Anyway, I'm going to focus on Oleg's story, and hope that lovely young Russian woman and her hockey playing fiance are playing the fuck out of Stan and Aderholt, or at least he is.

I just no longer like Stan, Elizabeth, or even wimpy hangdog Philip that much anymore.  Luckily, I like a few others, including Oleg, his mother, and even his dad is starting to grow on me.  Misha's story interests me as well.

As much as I love the actors speaking Russian though, I'm beginning to feel like I'm watching an endless foreign film with all the subtitles.  Maybe that's because those scenes are the part of the show I'm enjoying.

Without Philip there, I think Elizabeth would be fine with letting Pasha attempt suicide.  She certainly tried to stop him from storming over there in full view of the FBI watcher.  He didn't stop even after Tuan told him where the guy was.  Reckless, and endangering not just his own cover/life, but also Elizabeth.  He is no longer just cracking.  He cracked.

Logically?  Claudia, as his handler, should take him out, and leave Liz and the kids in place. 

ETA

I just thought of something.  Maybe Claudia knows Tuan.  Maybe Tuan has two roles here, and one is to report back on Philip and Elizabeth?  Maybe that's why he kept begging them to spend more time with him?

If so, Philip's latest reaction, stalking off to Pasha's, refusing to listen to Tuan or Elizabeth, blowing an op that Center really wants to happen?  If so, it should bring Claudia down hard on him.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[Novel8]

The writers must have their reasons why the story line is taking up more time in Russia. I think Oleg is going to either get killed by assisting the woman, or he will escape from the KGB. ..and yet, that leaves an opening for the KGB, go after his parents, whom he seems devoted to. Really a complex story line. The ending showing Paige punching bag , is making me wonder if the writers are going to make her another "Liz", for a sequel? The season finale is next week and then another 6 months wait for what I hope is the end of this show...its getting to drag out.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Novel8
word omission

[SunnyBeBe]

6 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I felt that by doing the punching bag Paige was reacting to Elizabeth putting the necklace right back around her neck. Paige is not as "free" as she thought she was, so she's back into training -- and maybe letting out stress and anger. We could also see it as a sign that she has completely bought into herself as being "one of them", a budding spy, because she's now thinking that P&E are these heroes, fighting for "justice" and she's switched from religion and Pastor Tim to her parents' Cause. (Exactly what Elizabeth wanted, but...)

To me, there was something of anger there. They took away her religion, her faith in higher power that was helping her. Now she knows the pastor she trusted thinks her parents have totally screwed her up. I think nothing feels certain for her, and she doesn't really know what to think of P&E's "work". Paige of 1 year ago would be horrified that they "stole" the identity of dead Americans and assumed those names, then gave her and her brother that fake, stolen name. Now she's curious about it but seems to accept? Well, it's two months before Pastor Tim leaves, so I think there' still room for her to freak out and run to him when she is told about the Russia plan, and for Henry to run to Stan. 

That is one option.   I can envision Henry going to school, but, being in Stan's custody.  But, I can't see Paige wanting to be with Pastor Tim in Venezuela. I do chuckle  when E acts like the kids could be happy in Russia.  She has to know that it is not likely. I think that P & E are not facing reality on this. 

Oleg is weighing his options.  No matter what he does, there will likely be blow back on his parents. If he disappears, the KGB will never leave his parents alone, thinking that they funded his disappearance and knowing where he is.  If he kills himself, they'll get drilled for info too.  If he confesses and goes to prison or is executed, his parents will still endure pain and shame.  WHAT is he to do? I know!  Turn on the KGB and seek help to get himself and his parents out of Russia. Easier said than done.  I'm not sure that would be possible. lol

Oleg must be contemplating prison. Recall that he's asked his mom about what it was like a couple of times.  He may be trying to come to terms with it. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[jjj]

I have to agree that I liked Oleg's father more in this episode than any previously.  Basically, he said, "what is the point of all this power if I can't use it to help you?"  Previously, I only had the sense that the father accumulated power for the sake of power.  And I think it was very good that Oleg got to hear that expression of affection and loyalty.   

[TheBride]

I'm sorry...this show lost its mojo. But I want to see the finale--one can only hope....

[chick binewski]

I know I've had a lot of trouble determining where the writers are going this season (Is Mischa's uncle really Phillip's brother? Are Renee & granola guy husband & wife double agents/tai chi instructors?) but am I alone in thinking the Pastor Tim meeting was to test Paige? After the dramatic crucifix toss maybe they were suspicious? If P&E want to keep PT close...fine. But disclosing they want to go back to Russia? I don't care how enlightened the pastor is, I don't see any scenario where they hand that information to him unless it's to fish out what Paige has said and/or they have no intention of ever actually returning to Russia, but rather bolt from the KGB altogether and escape to somewhere else?  

[White Sheep]

Pastor time give her that cross necklace right?

What the Russian equivalent names of Paige and Henry?

[shura]

6 hours ago, minamurray78 said:

Also, Tuan is just too immature, young, and a bit (or a lot) cold blooded and not ready to make decisions. Because he clearly doesn't take into consideration emotions that people can have, and how difficult it is to predict the reactions parents can have after the dramatic death of their only child. How can he be sure the mother will want to go back to Russia? What if she's way to depressed to give a shit, and stays sitting her sorrow away at her american house? What if she doesn't care anymore what her husband thinks and therefore cannot be coerced into carrying on with the affair? What if her husband doesn't even care about the affair after that? A whole lot of umpredictable outcomes, and an operation that took months of work, all down the drain.

There is a certain logic there though, even if it's based on a false premise. Tuan believes that he taught Pasha well enough to survive, and if Pasha does, as Tuan expects, the attempted suicide just might convince his mother to take him back to Russia. And if all this doesn't go according to his plan and Evgeniya ends up not returning to Moscow, so what, she is not returning to Moscow the way things are anyhow, the operation (in Tuan's view) is already down the drain, so why not try this? You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take, to go with a hockey quote. Now, why Tuan thinks that P&E have exhausted all other possible options, I have no idea, he may be absolutely and terribly wrong there, but the rest of the plan computes.

[jjj]

But Tuan's premise is the Pasha would want to survive -- and what Tuan might have done is to show Pasha how to commit suicide for real.  Unfortunately, teenagers who are desperate commit suicide -- and in the 1980s, giving instructions to a miserable teenager would create an opportunity that someone like Pasha might act upon.  (It was harder to research then.)  Tuan's approach is not a plan, but a poorly wired incendiary device. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Why would PT believe he has any right to stop them? It's P+E's choice. I think they should leave Paige and Henry behind, but it's still their choice, not PT's. And even if you believe that Communist Russia was worse than the USA, it's not like they're taking Paige and Henry to Mordor. 

 

He's a pastor and a regular guy. There's plenty of things he might think he had a right to do if he thought Paige and Henry were in trouble. Plenty of people seem to think that Russia actually is Mordor so they're totally taking a risk that Pastor Tim might have some OTT reaction. Or his wife might.

19 minutes ago, shura said:

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take, to go with a hockey quote. Now, why Tuan thinks that P&E have exhausted all other possible options, I have no idea, he may be absolutely and terribly wrong there, but the rest of the plan computes.

Yeah, I've been surprised by things I've read elsewhere about how this is proof of how unstable he is. It's a bad plan, certainly. It would be great if the result of it was to bring the Morozovs together and determined to make it in the US. But it is a plan. Tuan's just not as good a thinker as he thinks he is. Also this was something that popped into his head on the fly and he did it in that moment. He didn't think it out beyond his limited understanding of how it would work.

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Except they hit us with hammers on the head telling us the Center doesn't trust Philip anymore.

If Claudia suspects (correctly) that Elizabeth is only doing it because of Philip?  Much easier to take Philip out of the equation completely and keep their second generation spy (spies?)  Especially if Philip died by the hand of Americans, or it was framed that way. 

It could snap Elizabeth's whole hearted patriotism/zealotry right back into place.  Revenge is a good motive to keep her commitment strong. 

Elizabeth is tired of spying though. It's not like Philip is the only one tired of this. Philip is more over it than her, but she is pretty over it. She won't go back to how she was before. That's what this season has been all about. And I'm willing to bet this Pasha suicide thing driven by Tuon going rogue is going to drag them both down even further no matter what happens. It sure won't make them eager for more assignments. 

If Philip actually died at the hand of Americans, it's over for Elizabeth too.  If it is made to look like he's killed by the Americans, her natural assumption should be it's time to leave because her own arrest is imminent- not time to keep spying. And any other response by the centre should and would make her suspicious. She knows they're watching Philip too. In short, it would be a stupid move imo. 

[TheBride]

I think they have too many story threads--and it's way unrealistic. I wish they would drop Tuan and that entire story line. There is way way too much Russian sub-titled content.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Pastor Tim is probably more aware of the world than the Jennings.  He's traveled quite a bit, he's lived in South America before, and he's spent a lot of time in third world countries.  He's liberal, but he's also walking his talk for the most part.  He's able to read Marx and see some truths there.

However, his entire life is devoted to Christianity, it's his job, it's his guiding force.  He didn't accept Marx's view on that.  When he spoke with Paige a while ago he made sure to ask if she was praying.  It's her soul he cares about, as much as her body.  He wouldn't think the USSR would be OK for a young, devout, Christian girl for obvious reasons.  His mind is open but his brains haven't completely fallen out.

Anyway, I'm going to focus on Oleg's story, and hope that lovely young Russian woman and her hockey playing fiance are playing the fuck out of Stan and Aderholt, or at least he is.

I just no longer like Stan, Elizabeth, or even wimpy hangdog Philip that much anymore.  Luckily, I like a few others, including Oleg, his mother, and even his dad is starting to grow on me.  Misha's story interests me as well.

As much as I love the actors speaking Russian though, I'm beginning to feel like I'm watching an endless foreign film with all the subtitles.  Maybe that's because those scenes are the part of the show I'm enjoying.

Without Philip there, I think Elizabeth would be fine with letting Pasha attempt suicide.  She certainly tried to stop him from storming over there in full view of the FBI watcher.  He didn't stop even after Tuan told him where the guy was.  Reckless, and endangering not just his own cover/life, but also Elizabeth.  He is no longer just cracking.  He cracked.

Logically?  Claudia, as his handler, should take him out, and leave Liz and the kids in place. 

ETA

I just thought of something.  Maybe Claudia knows Tuan.  Maybe Tuan has two roles here, and one is to report back on Philip and Elizabeth?  Maybe that's why he kept begging them to spend more time with him?

If so, Philip's latest reaction, stalking off to Pasha's, refusing to listen to Tuan or Elizabeth, blowing an op that Center really wants to happen?  If so, it should bring Claudia down hard on him.

Elizabeth was not fine with Pasha attempting suicide. She wasn't prepared to walk over, but she wasn't okay with it at all. She was furious. It was a stupid plan on Tuon's part. There is no predicting how these people would react if their son died. And there's no predicting their actual reaction to a suicide attempt either. This is their child, something Tuon has no concept about. Clearly. And if Claudia were to think this was a good plan, she'd not as smart as I thought. 

I still don't see how stalking over there was truly reckless. He knows them. They're friends. All they have to say is  Pasha said some  things to Tuon that concerned him. So they were coming to check on him. Which is sort of the truth anyway. Yeah, Tuon and Elizabeth were worried, but I don't define it as reckless. Reckless is Tuon deciding Pasha faking a suicide attempt was a good idea- and running it past no one. That actually could blow everything. 

I see no way that Claudia would benefit from taking out Philip. If she thinks that would make everyone fall in line, then she's a fool imo. I addressed that more in another response. She'll make an enemy out of Elizabeth and her kids. Elizabeth has made it clear she values Philip over the centre. Elizabeth does not fully trust the centre. And she sure doesn't trust Claudia. Never has. I see no scenario that Elizabeth couldn't see through. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Erin9

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

That is one option.   I can envision Henry going to school, but, being in Stan's custody.  But, I can't see Paige wanting to be with Pastor Tim in Venezuela. I do chuckle  when E acts like the kids could be happy in Russia.  She has to know that it is not likely. I think that P & E are not facing reality on this. 

Oleg is weighing his options.  No matter what he does, there will likely be blow back on his parents. If he disappears, the KGB will never leave his parents alone, thinking that they funded his disappearance and knowing where he is.  If he kills himself, they'll get drilled for info too.  If he confesses and goes to prison or is executed, his parents will still endure pain and shame.  WHAT is he to do? I know!  Turn on the KGB and seek help to get himself and his parents out of Russia. Easier said than done.  I'm not sure that would be possible. lol

Oleg must be contemplating prison. Recall that he's asked his mom about what it was like a couple of times.  He may be trying to come to terms with it. 

I can't envision Henry with Stan. If this show is going for realism- who gives a divorced, male workaholic FBI agent who isn't much of a father to his own kid and trusts no one custody of a non blood relative. I don't see it. Especially in the 1980s. 

[jjj]

36 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I can't envision Henry with Stan. If this show is going for realism- who gives a divorced, male workaholic FBI agent who isn't much of a father to his own kid and trusts no one custody of a non blood relative. I don't see it. Especially in the 1980s. 

Indeed, they are not going to leave Henry in the custody (multiple meanings!) of an FBI agent! 

My main regret in this episode is that we did not get to hear the conversation of Stan and Aderholt in the car after their encounter with Sofia's fiancé.  That was a scene ripe with possibilities! 

[Bretton]

Quote

I have no doubt (though that said I rarely predict these things correctly) that this season will end with Philip and Henry staying here and Elizabeth and Paige going to the Soviet Union, which will give us the cliffhanger and the conflict for the final season.

Okay, this comment brought me some genuine humor. You "have no doubt" even though you know you "rarely predict these things correctly"? Shouldn't your second thought give you "second thoughts" about your first thought? :)

[Erin9]

11 minutes ago, jjj said:

Indeed, they are not going to leave Henry in the custody (multiple meanings!) of an FBI agent! 

My main regret in this episode is that we did not get to hear the conversation of Stan and Aderholt in the car after their encounter with Sofia's fiancé.  That was a scene ripe with possibilities! 

For sure! Lol

Yeah. That would have been entertaining. Their reactions to the fiancé were priceless. It was a nice bit of levity. 

While I wish we could have learned more about a young Philip when we met his brother, I did like hearing part of why he got noticed and recruited: how smart he was. Did they ever say his brother's name or are we getting it from IMDb only so far? 

[Bretton]

My takeaways:

- Yes, like so many of you have pointed out, P&E going to Pastor Tim made ZERO sense. I'm not going to even try and defend that poor plot choice.

- Oleg does definitely seem resigned to his fate. Question for me is: does the Oleg plot-line resolve (completely, I mean) next episode?  It seems clear that his father will not do as asked. In other words, with only one son left alive, he will do all he can to keep Oleg safe. Does the bishop offer himself up to save the pawn?

- I also find it unbelievable that P&E would just take Claudia at her word. Even ignoring her history with them ("You stupid bitch!" -- need I say more?), her entire response sounded like stalling for time. "I understand," she said. That's exactly what a service rep is trained to say to a frustrated customer - just before obfuscating in order to avoid providing a refund.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

While I wish we could have learned more about a young Philip when we met his brother, I did like hearing part of why he got noticed and recruited: how smart he was. Did they ever say his brother's name or are we getting it from IMDb only so far? 

I don't think they said it. He just called himself his brother. Didn't catch the nephew's name if they said that either.

I would love to know how that recruitment happened out there in Siberia.

[Erin9]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think they said it. He just called himself his brother. Didn't catch the nephew's name if they said that either.

I would love to know how that recruitment happened out there in Siberia.

Hopefully that means we'll hear more about him in the future then if he has a name we haven't heard yet. IIRC, Philip's parents and Elizabeth's mom were listed only as their parents on imdb; they didn't have names. 

Yeah, me too. 

[Doyounot]

For me even though it did seem as things were going slow this episode i couldnt believe the episode ended i thought there was way more time left so it went by pretty fast... it was all interesting to me no scenes where my mind wandered like olegs family dinner.

I liked elizabeths whole i just tell him how it is no crying begging just this is how its gonna be he gets his way 99% of the time (philip also just started walking when no one answered and they tried to stop him but he was not slowing down). I also like how she tried to stop him in character since they were in public.

I appreciate how they get good actors even for what i assume are very minor roles. Specifically in this episode I totally felt i knew all of philips brothers wifes feelings in the scene even though all she said was "more fish?" The look she gave to her son when he asked about who he wasnt supposed to ask about was awesome.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Doyounot said:

I liked elizabeths whole i just tell him how it is no crying begging just this is how its gonna be he gets his way 99% of the time (philip also just started walking when no one answered and they tried to stop him but he was not slowing down). I also like how she tried to stop him in character since they were in public.

Do you mean she was switching their roles? Because usually Elizabeth gets her way and Philip's passive. Unless there's something he's serious about and then he just does it. Elizabeth doesn't give anybody else their way 99% of the time unless it's the Centre.  

[magemaud]

I have a feeling that both Pastor Tim and Tuan are both going to be "taken care of" soon. E & P confiding in Tim signaled to me that they can tell him anything because he's a dead man. And Tuan has become a loose cannon and a liability they can no longer trust. 

[Doyounot]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Do you mean she was switching their roles? Because usually Elizabeth gets her way and Philip's passive. Unless there's something he's serious about and then he just does it. Elizabeth doesn't give anybody else their way 99% of the time unless it's the Centre.  

No i know but i think this is the way she justifies getting her way to herself and she probably said 99% to her since thats relatable to her situation (i dont think she actually believes philip gets 99% but she does go along with him alot even when she doesn't agree or she will go the extra mile to make him satisfied like last week she was convinced but knew he needed more assurance they had the right woman so she kept going).

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

For sure! Lol

Yeah. That would have been entertaining. Their reactions to the fiancé were priceless. It was a nice bit of levity. 

While I wish we could have learned more about a young Philip when we met his brother, I did like hearing part of why he got noticed and recruited: how smart he was. Did they ever say his brother's name or are we getting it from IMDb only so far? 

Sorry, I read a couple of times here the name of the uncle as posted on IMDB, so I used it. I avoid looking up who is appearing in how many episodes, etc. because I feel it can be a spoiler, so I should not have used his name until it was introduced on the show.

[jjj]

42 minutes ago, magemaud said:

I have a feeling that both Pastor Tim and Tuan are both going to be "taken care of" soon. E & P confiding in Tim signaled to me that they can tell him anything because he's a dead man. And Tuan has become a loose cannon and a liability they can no longer trust. 

The only thing that made sense to me in their talk with Pastor "Betty" Tim was that he had entered the zone of limited time, so could be told anything.  Remember in season one, where they thought they were sending a young woman and her child to safety -- but the woman was killed (apparent overdose) and the baby was sent to the Soviet Union to be raised?  That also flashed in my mind.  The Centre would not kill the pastor's baby, but Alice and P"B"T have too much information that they could release at any moment.  Like, the moment they leave for Argentina.  ("Argentina" ) Paige would never need to know.   Martha had earned safe passage.  Tim and Alice have not.

Indeed, I cannot see Tuan surviving this season, unless he is captured and a potential plot point in the final season. 

[Gella]

I don't see them killing Pastor Tim. In some bizarre way they have got somewhat close to him. He is the only person outside of the Centre who knows who they are, and to some extent they can be honest with him. There must be nice to have a counterweight to Claudia and her constant manipulation. They are after all human. I also think if he was going to rat them out he would have done it. He has kept this information to himself for so long at this point he is complicit. "So, Pastor Tim, you know about an active Soviet cell in Virginia for how long? And it never occurred to you to contact the authorities? And why is that?"

I think Elizabeth is pretty much done. She is still a patriot and she will trudge along if she needs to but she's had it just as much as Phillip and its pretty obvious. 

[J-Man]

Quote

I wish they would've picked another actor to play Pastor Tim or his brother.

I think we have to cut them some slack in the casting of the Russian roles. They need to find people who can (1) handle the material and (2) speak Russian. I think family resemblance is far less important to them than the other things, given the limited pool of people who meet those criteria.

[Shriekingeel]

4 hours ago, White Sheep said:

What the Russian equivalent names of Paige and Henry?

Henry is Genrikh, but I don't think Paige has an equivalent. 

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, RedHawk said:

And why did Misha not tell his age? Does he think he seems more cool to his young cousin if he seems like a teenager rather than an "older" guy of 20-21?

Electroshock treatments can cause memory lapses, so it's possible there are periods of time he doesn't remember, thus isn't sure how old he is. 

11 hours ago, MegK said:

Is it possible the Centre is actually the force behind Henry's move to a boarding school, in the same way it got Pastor Tim that job offer? They know that Henry's a math whiz, they know about his close relationship with an FBI agent — they surely have to regard turning Henry as a top priority in the 2nd-gen plan. They also know that Paige's transition isn't going so well with P&E at the wheel. If Henry were in boarding school, all they'd have to do is plant a teacher and/or a student to slowly work on turning him, then bring P&E into the picture later.

This is brilliant. It would mean that Chris's father is like one of the Cambridge spies. 

11 hours ago, MegK said:

As for Henry, a second-gen spy who might be able to get a job in the FBI thanks to a friendship with an agent who's in the dark seems pretty much like the Centre's wet dream.

Agreed. The goal of recruiting the second generation was that they could get jobs in government that Russians would not. 

11 hours ago, Gella said:

As an aside we are getting somewhat close to April 1986 and I wonder what Phillip would make of that disaster. 

I'm far more interested in Oleg's reaction, based on what he said about the Soviet's ability or lack thereof to handle biohazards. 

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He could talk to a friend or friends about what was going on, there'd be a sense of how people around his age deal with the corruption. Most importantly, he could have a friend who was funny, tried to get Oleg to have some fun. It seems like a guy like Oleg would have friends like that, especially since he would have grown up among other elite guys. They'd want to take him out. They'd probably have fun with girls who weren't chosen by his father as a future bride.

I totally agree with this. I've wanted a scene of Oleg having fun in a Russian jazz club since the season started. Oleg and his friends would be dealing with the corruption from the other side. They would be the ones in a position to offer things, or would be approached by people who want things. I imagine it would be a lot of trading favors amongst the group.  

[Gella]

Генрих and Пейдж. Neither one is a Russian name, although Генрих would be more acceptable. In reality he'd probably become Garry, like Garry Kasparov. Paige would need a new name entirely. 

[Bretton]

Have we ever learned Philip's/Mischa's original Russian last name? I don't remember hearing it.

[Glade]

I really fucking hate Taun, with all of his petty, hateful judgements of Pasha, a teenager who was dragged to a foreign country against his will and was having problems adjusting, which is perfectly reasonable but Taun's all like "people in Africa are starving, you should be ashamed!" Taun's sheer giddiness over having him bullied and now this suicide plan is revolting. I miss Hans and his lovely accent (I could just listen to him saying cute socialist things all day! He should go door to door!) and I was really pissed when the latin American spy was killed in earlier seasons (and Elizabeth let it happen!) but I really wouldn't mind seeing Taun offed.

[AllyB]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

and hope that lovely young Russian woman and her hockey playing fiance are playing the fuck out of Stan and Aderholt, or at least he is.

But Stan and Aderholt know that the hockey player courier is playing them, they told Wolfe that his approach was textbook KGB badly attempting to convince the Americans they were a potential double agent. As a result of that Stan is pretty much hoping that Sofia has been playing them all along, because if she is genuine, it means that the KGB was on to her almost immediately and her life is pretty much over. He was clearly trying to get Wolfe to consider ending the operation and even rescuing her and her son, but Wolfe shut him down before he could fully make his case. 

[Ina123]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The kids of the illegals were not permitted to come and go.

You are correct. I stated myself wrong. I was talking exclusively of Tim and Alex Foley. While the US, Canada and the UK have denied them entrance, they are free to come and go in many countries, mainly Asian. The younger one is fighting with the west to go back to university. However, my point remains, their parents were captured and they were deported in a prisoner exchange. Tim and Alex live and travel to Asian countries and are comfortable. I'm just saying were it 2010 this is what could have happened to the Jennings. As I stated, the US was in a different mood towards spying in the 80's so it is more dangerous for P and E and the kids.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

An interview with Tim and Alex Foley, sons of "sleeper cell" parents caught in 2010. While the truth is not certain about Tim, I feel he was like Paige and had been told possibly agreed to train. I think Alex was in the dark.

[SunnyBeBe]

10 hours ago, Bretton said:

My takeaways:

- Yes, like so many of you have pointed out, P&E going to Pastor Tim made ZERO sense. I'm not going to even try and defend that poor plot choice.

- Oleg does definitely seem resigned to his fate. Question for me is: does the Oleg plot-line resolve (completely, I mean) next episode?  It seems clear that his father will not do as asked. In other words, with only one son left alive, he will do all he can to keep Oleg safe. Does the bishop offer himself up to save the pawn?

- I also find it unbelievable that P&E would just take Claudia at her word. Even ignoring her history with them ("You stupid bitch!" -- need I say more?), her entire response sounded like stalling for time. "I understand," she said. That's exactly what a service rep is trained to say to a frustrated customer - just before obfuscating in order to avoid providing a refund.

I was suspicious of Claudia's response too.  But, haven't P & E received offers to return home before?  I'm trying to recall when.  Do you think that they are expected to work until old age like Gabriel?  Their jobs are too high stress for that, imo.  Did Gabriel do what they do? 

Stan may not be the most ideal custodian, but, who else would they leave the kids with if they can't be present?  What if they go to American prison?  There choices are limited.  They really have no one else.  Pasha's parents? I don't think so.  

Edited May 25, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[withanaich]

I really fucking hate Taun, with all of his petty, hateful judgements of Pasha, a teenager who was dragged to a foreign country against his will and was having problems adjusting, which is perfectly reasonable but Taun's all like "people in Africa are starving, you should be ashamed!" Taun's sheer giddiness over having him bullied and now this suicide plan is revolting. I miss Hans and his lovely accent (I could just listen to him saying cute socialist things all day! He should go door to door!) and I was really pissed when the latin American spy was killed in earlier seasons (and Elizabeth let it happen!) but I really wouldn't mind seeing Taun offed.

I totally agree with your assessment of Tuan. He kills me, talking shit about the U.S. like he A) knows everything about the goddamn world, B) knows more than experts Philip and Elizabeth, and C) isn't sitting there bingeing on American junk food while wearing a goddamn KNIGHT RIDER tee-shirt.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/23/2017 at 11:19 PM, crgirl412 said:

I think Pastor Tim looks more like Philip than his brother.  I wish they would've picked another actor to play Pastor Tim or his brother.

I had the opposite reaction. I think he bears a strong resemblance to both Phillip and Mischa (or Misha and Misha, as it were).

On 5/24/2017 at 1:23 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes, the Pastor Tim stuff makes no sense. Suddenly, he is their confidant and is rewarded with a new life and opportunity. And his platitudes about raising children didn't seem to square with his diary entries that essentially called them "child abusers." Why seek advice from him?

I thought it was strange at first too - I expected a little bit of a shakedown. After thinking about it awhile, I think that it does actually make some kind of sense. Who else can they talk to? Claudia sees Paige as an asset and will only offer Soviet approved advice. Pastor Tim, for all of his major flaws, sees Paige as a person. He's literally the only person they can talk to about their challenges as parents. Strange, yes. But, any port in a storm.

On 5/24/2017 at 1:56 AM, NitneLiun said:

I think Pastor Groovyhair has a rather idealized view of the Soviet Union. It has already been established that he believes the USSR is a greater force for peace in the world than the USA.  He also clearly is sympathetic to Marxist views of the world.  Why else would he advocate unilateral nuclear disarmament by the United States?

I think he is more willing to condemn P&E's abilities as parents than to question the motives of the nation they work for.

You might be right.

On 5/24/2017 at 5:04 AM, JFParnell said:

Wow, I'm feeling like kind of an outlier in this discussion. I'm glad so many of you all liked the ep. But, dang, I thought it was terrible.

Funny, I feel like an outlier because I liked the episode, and said to the mister - boy a lot happened in this episode.  On the other hand, I posted only two pages in because the browser is wonky and I'm afraid I'll lose my stuff (anyone else have trouble with Firefox?)

[Trillian]

9 hours ago, jjj said:

The only thing that made sense to me in their talk with Pastor "Betty" Tim was that he had entered the zone of limited time, so could be told anything.  Remember in season one, where they thought they were sending a young woman and her child to safety -- but the woman was killed (apparent overdose) and the baby was sent to the Soviet Union to be raised?  That also flashed in my mind.  The Centre would not kill the pastor's baby, but Alice and P"B"T have too much information that they could release at any moment.  Like, the moment they leave for Argentina.  ("Argentina" ) Paige would never need to know.   Martha had earned safe passage.  Tim and Alice have not.

Indeed, I cannot see Tuan surviving this season, unless he is captured and a potential plot point in the final season. 

This is really the only plausible explanation I can see for talking to Pastor Tim. I don't buy that would they really go to him for advice.  But, if they wanted to lull him into a false sense of security, it makes sense.  As others have pointed out, Tim is truly concerned for Paige and might be inclined to act on his knowledge either before or after he goes to Argentina since he won't be around to "protect" her in person.  If, however, he thinks that the family is going to the USSR, where, after a period of adjustment, Paige will be safe and happy, he's less likely to go to the FBI with what he knows.  He leaves for Argentina hopeful for her future, and then is quietly killed off.

[rehoboth]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:42 AM, ChromaKelly said:

I agree with all the comments re: P&E going to Pastor Tim. What's to say he wouldn't run to the FBI and go OMG these Soviet spies are taking American children out of the country?
I like Oleg, but the Russia scenes are relentlessly depressing. Enough.
I feel like the Pasha storyline is yet another "this is too much", when they've hit "too much" before, but they keep on. 
I'm wondering if the KGB will move on to P&E as the possible leak if they determine it wasn't Oleg. After all, they are Stan's neighbors and P is his BFF.

Pastor Tim probably does not see Russia as you and I do today.  He is looking at the USSR through rose colored glasses and did not seem to think it was an entirely bad idea to take Paige and Henry there - they'll need a little time to adjust and all.  Hey, they'll probably become bi-lingual!

[Ina123]

1 minute ago, icemiser69 said:

Speaking of which, I was hoping Phillip would beat the crap out of Tuan for like a half hour. 

Maybe next week?

[stagmania]

I am way late to this episode and unfortunately don't have time right now to read through all four pages of comments, but something specific is bugging me about Philip. He seems so...muted? I don't know if that's the right word, but I've had a creeping realization coming across the season and it really hit me in this one: his reactions to everything that's happening are understated to the point of being inscrutable. We often have nothing but the (generally excellent) facial expressions of Matthew Rhys to go on to determine what's going on in his head. And this is connected to the larger issue that they have stopped showing us some of the really meaty emotional stuff with P&E. We've seen few intimate scenes with them this year, and it seems we are meant to assume they're very tight, connected and on the same page without being shown that. We also keep getting these scenes where there's a revelation, or something that indicates a big change coming (like the car scene last week), and then the next episode it's referred to obliquely, but we don't really get to dig in and see how they responded to it and worked through it. Did P&E both immediately agree that they would go to the Centre and request that they be allowed to end their tours? Was there any discussion of wanting to stay in America? Did they agree about how Paige and Henry might respond? Was any consideration given at all to trying to leave without going through the Centre?

As someone whose primary interest in this show is all about the characters, their emotions, their feelings about the work they do and their sense of family with each other, I find it frustrating that they're not showing us this stuff, especially when so much screen time is being devoted to the ongoing Oleg and Stan plots, which, frankly, I find pretty boring. I have enjoyed this season a lot more than most on this forum, and I am still all in on this show and this story, but I am puzzled by some of the choices the creative team has made about where to focus story time this year. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I guess Paige wasn't all that religious if she was going to drop it like a hot potato.  Doesn't seem the least bit believable to me.

That seems like a high bar for "religious" to me. What about people who turn to religion in times of crisis? Are they not religious during that time because they weren't super religious before and might not practice it on a daily basis after? What about people who question and struggle with their faith? Are they not religious because they don't blindly and unwaveringly believe in it? I totally believe that a 15-16 year old girl might turn on to it after being exposed to a youth group by a friend. Especially if they are involved with peace efforts or whatever that girl might happen to admire. Even someone not in Paige's position, someone who didn't have secret spy parents or someone older than 16 might become religious for a while but then decide it wasn't for them.

Tuan really sounded like a sociopath when he was laying out the possibilities of Pasha dying or not dying. What really stuck with me about his decision to have that conversation with Pasha was that he didn't run it by P&E first. Was he so sure of himself or did he think taking the initiative like that would lead to accolades?

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Sorry, I read a couple of times here the name of the uncle as posted on IMDB, so I used it. I avoid looking up who is appearing in how many episodes, etc. because I feel it can be a spoiler, so I should not have used his name until it was introduced on the show.

I don't think it's a spoiler. He's listed as Pyotr on imdb. They didn't happen to mention the name in the ep but it seems easier to just use his name to me.

11 hours ago, Doyounot said:

No i know but i think this is the way she justifies getting her way to herself and she probably said 99% to her since thats relatable to her situation (i dont think she actually believes philip gets 99% but she does go along with him alot even when she doesn't agree or she will go the extra mile to make him satisfied like last week she was convinced but knew he needed more assurance they had the right woman so she kept going).

Ah, I see. So just Elizabeth feeling like she's very accommodating because when she's getting her way she thinks that's just because she's right and she doesn't think of it as getting her way. That definitely sounds like her. LOL. Especially since she has certainly become more accommodating.

11 hours ago, jjj said:

Like, the moment they leave for Argentina.  ("Argentina" ) Paige would never need to know.   Martha had earned safe passage.  Tim and Alice have not.

Pastor Tim and Alice have earned their safe passage by having a lawyer who may have a tape that would incriminate the Jennings. We really have zero reason to think that they're actually killing him. P&E, at least, believe this is a genuine job offer that the guy's just going to take. 

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Electroshock treatments can cause memory lapses, so it's possible there are periods of time he doesn't remember, thus isn't sure how old he is. 

We don't know that he's had any electroshock treatments. He showed no signs of that sort of thing when we saw him in the hospital. He didn't seem like he tried to remember and couldn't, as if time was missing. More like he just forgot to make note of it. An interesting contrast to the Jennings' kids, especially Paige, who had her age announced onscreen practically every week for a while there.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Stan may not be the most ideal custodian, but, who else would they leave the kids with if they can't be present?  What if they go to American prison?  There choices are limited.  They really have no one else.  Pasha's parents? I don't think so.  

Foster care. They don't have to live with characters on the show. Philip had once suggested the Beemans when they were discussing it after the Connors were killed, but Sandra would be a better choice than Stan. Though that would be weird now.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was suspicious of Claudia's response too.  But, haven't P & E received offers to return home before?  I'm trying to recall when.  Do you think that they are expected to work until old age like Gabriel?  Their jobs are too high stress for that, imo.  Did Gabriel do what they do? 

 

Gabriel told them last year to go home, though it turned out he hadn't cleared it with the Centre. He said the job was never supposed to be permanent. It makes sense that Illegals have returned home. He and Claudia have traveled back and forth.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I guess Paige wasn't all that religious if she was going to drop it like a hot potato.  Doesn't seem the least bit believable to me. 

Lots of teens go through a religious phase and wind up not that religious or atheist. Paige's pastor betrayed her by telling his wife her secret, which changed her view of him from someone who was her savior to just another adult. His answers didn't actually solve all her problems as he said they would. Then she got stuck having to be at the church all the time. That's not dropping it like a hot potato. Maybe she'll wind up with some faith or not in the end.

25 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I am way late to this episode and unfortunately don't have time right now to read through all four pages of comments, but something specific is bugging me about Philip. He seems so...muted? I don't know if that's the right word, but I've had a creeping realization coming across the season and it really hit me in this one: his reactions to everything that's happening are understated to the point of being inscrutable. We often have n

I feel like with Philip this is especially pronounced because of where the character is now - at least I hope it's intentional. It seems like the character needs to hit a place like Paige did this week where she was hitting that bag. He's just reacting to everything with no confidence about most bigger picture things. He's clear on some smaller things-like he knew he wanted to marry Elizabeth and now he knows he wants to save Pasha. But it honestly seems like with everything else his reactions are muted because he's depressed and lost. He'll tell Paige that she doesn't have to be who she was when she was a kid but he doesn't seem to see what that means for him. The last time he felt confident it turned out he'd murdered an innocent.

Meanwhile he keeps having things happen that just make him more depressed and laid out. Like even finding out about his father didn't give him a sense of who he was so he could stand up more solidly, he just started obsessing over how maybe his father was also terrible and that means he's terrible genetically or else it's the reason he was chosen. He keeps finding reasons to feel bad about himself. I always think of Elizabeth after Philip told him EST helped him. She asked him how it was helping him since it made him unable to eat or sleep. 

I can't help myself from hoping that there is a plan to get him through this. Like I keep going back to Philip so  suggesting that the reason the KGB "came for him" was because his father was a prison guard when Gabriel and his brother seem to think it's obvious he was just talented. Even when the whole Henry thing started with the math teacher Philip said, kind of vaguely, that he was good at math. It's like he knows he doesn't want to be who the KGB has defined him as, but so far he's also failed to figure out who he is. When he said "who you were when you were a kid" he seems to connect it only to the scared boy murderer instead of using his happy memories of his family to ground him.

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, rehoboth said:

Pastor Tim probably does not see Russia as you and I do today.  He is looking at the USSR through rose colored glasses and did not seem to think it was an entirely bad idea to take Paige and Henry there - they'll need a little time to adjust and all.  Hey, they'll probably become bi-lingual!

In the early '80s Reagan's "evil empire" designation and all the "Day After" scare-shows had not taken hold as they would from about 1985 onward. Many people did not see the Soviet Union as the ultimate enemy, and some could see it was unlikely they would attack the USA. My feeling is that P&E (and that Marxist minister they brought in to tell Tim what good folks they were) sold him on the idea that they are working for "justice" in a way he can understand and accept. 

However, I'm not so sure he's as comfortable with the idea of them taking Paige and Henry to Russia as he seemed to be. Maybe he assumes Paige will come talk to him about it once the plan is revealed to her. On the other hand, during the chat where he told her about the job in Argentina, I felt that he was as relieved to get out of her (and her parents') orbit as she was that he's moving far away. It's clear that there's a distance and slight tension between them now.

Edited May 25, 2017 by RedHawk

[scrb]

Would the Jennings be afforded a lifestyle more like Oleg or like Martha?

They may be heroes but not all KGB lived well.  Oleg lives well because of his father and offered to take his partner to the special grocery store but the partner declined.

[Ina123]

35 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

In the early '80s Reagan's "evil empire" designation and all the "Day After" scare-shows had not taken hold as they would from about 1985 onward. Many people did not see the Soviet Union as the ultimate enemy, and some could see it was unlikely they would attack the USA.
 

I guess people could feel that way if they hadn't lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis.

10 minutes ago, scrb said:

Would the Jennings be afforded a lifestyle more like Oleg or like Martha?

They may be heroes but not all KGB lived well.  Oleg lives well because of his father and offered to take his partner to the special grocery store but the partner declined.

The ones who were deported in 2010 almost got a ticker tape parade. They were heroes.