S04.E04: Oathkeeper

[Helena Dax]

 

So, the Margaery/Tommen stuff was super creepy.  I always pictured their relationship as more like a kid and his favorite babysitter, so it definitely turned out a lot more molest-y than I was expecting.  Like, did they really need to throw in that line about it being "[their] little secret?"

 

And that was what in this world we call "grooming", complete with the exhortation to "let this be our little secret".

 

 I didn't see it that way. She's manipulating him, obviously, but her purpose isn't sexual. She doesn't want to have sex with him, she wants to have influence over him because she knows that Cersei's going to try to turn  Tommen against her.

 

I mean, how can it be grooming if you don't want to sexually abuse the child?

 

So, Littlefinger and Olenna killed Joffrey and it was the Tyrell's idea...  I read the books, but if I'm not wrong that was the explanation Littlefinger gave Sansa and, you know, Littlefinger. But Olenna's admission must mean his explanation was true.

 

Loved the Jaime and Brienne scene! I'll miss them together, but I like the friendship between Brienne and Pod too. They have the same sense of honor and loyalty. The scene with Jaime and Tyrion was also great, But since Bronn's the one who can sing, I'll suggest Bronn and the Kingslayer Brothers.

 

To me, this episode proves that the Sept Scene was never meant by the writers and director to be rape. Cersei was angry, but she was angry because Jaime had visited Tyrion, as far I can tell. Anyway, it's a mess. Graves should have said "I pretended to do a consensual sex scene and I did it wrong; I'm  very sorry for my mistake, but I ask you to accept that it was consensual because we can't  change it now and the show will  make more sense if you aren't expecting a scene dealing with that moment at the Sept". He doesn't deserve to direct more episodes. His mistake has ruined Jaime for lots of people and has created a serious divergence between what was supposed to happen and what lots of people in the audience thought it was happening. 

 

(I'm not a Jaime stan. I like him, but I'm aware of his flaws. But he isn't a rapist and he was never meant to be a rapist, not here or in  the book,  and I think it's sad that now so many people thinks he is just because  Graves doesn't know how to shoot creepy but consensual sex.)

 

That moment between Missandei and Grey Worm was very sweet and interesting. 

 

And those changes with Bran's story, wow! Does Jon know in the books that Bran's alive? I can't remember, but I don't think so. Anyway, it's fascinating to not know what's going to happen XD  I predict a gory death for all those rapist but it's just wishful thinking.

[Mya Stone]

 

And those changes with Bran's story, wow! Does Jon know in the books that Bran's alive? I can't remember, but I don't think so. Anyway, it's fascinating to not know what's going to happen XD  I predict a gory death for all those rapist but it's just wishful thinking.

 

This is where my memory is hazy. Jon knows he saw Summer when he was with the Wildlings, which I think he believes means Bran's alive, but I don't remember if it was ever expanded on. Sam never told Jon that he ran across Bran and Co., right? 

[RapBert]

Going back, I think it's a good decision to show more of the White Walkers. They're more of an afterthought in the books and appeared two times (?), yet they're supposed to be the big bad. The show establishes them more and builds them up as the primary antagonist, showing them at least once each season so we don't forget they're coming.

[SimoneS]

The Jaime/Brienne scenes were well done by both actors, especially the farewell scene. Jaime and Brienne clearly wanted to say more, but were at a lost for the words. If Jaime was not still captivated by Cersei, he would be able to see that his feelings for Brienne are complicated and maybe not just friendship love.

 

Helena Dax, I agree with you completely about Graves. Jaime was on the path to redemption when Graves damaged him unneccesarily with the rape.

 

It makes sense that Olenna would plot to kill Joffery. How could she let Margaery marry that monster. No matter how clever or manupilative Margaery could try to be, her life would always be in danger in that marriage.

 

I think that the changes from the books have been positive this season. The producers needed to tighten up the story which meandering way too much last season and after all, they cannot have tons of actors on contract. I think one of the best decisions was to insert Bronn into the Lannister brothers' drama. 

Edited April 28, 2014 by SimoneS

[jeansheridan]

I love seeing the White Walkers but not sure they evil so much as have an existence that conflicts with normal human living.  Much like the cannibals we have seen or the slaves versus slavers.  It is a culture clash.  I am not sure that baby's life is all that bad.

 

Love the changes for Bran.  I always hated that Sam never told Jon in the books.  Bugged me to no end.  That is not a secret you keep.  I do not think they will meet though.  It will be another near miss.  Good use of Locke.  

 

I love that Jaime knows Tyrion didn't do it.  And that Bronn is schooling him.  That all makes show verse sense.  

 

And I am glad they did not keep the murder a mystery.  There is too much going on to leave that dangling. Plus then you know.the Tyrells are not passive.  Good changes all around.  I did hate Dany' s CGI palace.  That looked unusually bad.

[matilda76]

 

 

ETA: Also, for someone who was preaching caution to Margeary a couple of episodes ago, Lady Olenna sure loud and glib about her guilt.

I like to think it was because she felt secure in the knowledge that the Lannisters' suspicions were directed the opposite way, toward Tyrion and Sansa. She knows Margaery would never give her away of course.

 

I was paying attention to Aidan Gillan's voice, and he still sounds Irish. I've been watching Season 3 again with a friend who's still catching up to the series, and his accent has definitely changed. Not that I mind the actor's real accent, but after all this time, why? 

 

I agree with posts above about the hierarchy of the white walkers. Looks to me that what we were seeing is their "priesthood" and that others we've seen up till now are the soldiers, and those who turn after being killed are sort of like drones (Osha's husband, the walkers who try to kill Jeor Mormont, etc). 

 

I do like being spoiled, but I can live with being unsullied again as this is hopefully a good departure from the books. Having read on this site that GRRM was writing himself out of it (cavernous) corner, he can use the show to reflect what he wishes was in the books. And it's probably informing the writing of the remainder of the book series as well. Anything that keeps Bran from becoming a tree is fine by me. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Agree with others here about the now-gratuitous rape scenes/violence against women on the show. I get that this is basically set during a medieval period during a time of war, and there was raping and pillaging to an extent we probably have trouble imagining. But the showrunners could be a little more selective in how they choose to portray it. I'm just hoping that they've been shoving our faces in it only to turn the tables and have the women take over everything in the end.

[jeansheridan]

Men are damaged too.  We just saw a dad killed and eaten.  And The Hound hurt a dad just because he could.  And the Unsullied are all gelded cruelly.  And of course Theon/Reek.  The most broken down character thus far.  I think there is plenty of violence towards everyone.  

[ZoeT]

Going back, I think it's a good decision to show more of the White Walkers. They're more of an afterthought in the books and appeared two times (?), yet they're supposed to be the big bad. The show establishes them more and builds them up as the primary antagonist, showing them at least once each season so we don't forget they're coming.

I agree. It is a smart decision to show the White Walkers in their environment even though I could not figure it out where that was besides very far up North.

 

Plus I was ecstatic they showed what happens with the Carster baby boys! I mean ever since Gilly (or some of the wives, cannot remember right now exactly) tells Sam that the Others are the boy's brothers and they coming to take him in the book there was a huge amount of talk that the Others really don't kill the boys but transform them somehow. But since it was said by Carster's wives and not written in a direct scene that was considered only a high probability.

 

This is a confirmation I wanted. Because let's face it unless you have Martin writing an Other (White Walker) POV that's not going to be in the books, in my opinion. I did wonder what was with the difference in the way the WW looked (the horse vs the one transforming the baby) but I read here it was the Night's King. Too bad they don't talk...

 

I liked the ep though I could have done with less horrors at Caster's. That was really overdoing it if you ask me.

 

@Mya Stone: I think it was strange to keep the truth from Jon Snow in the books. So changing that storyline to Sam revealing to Lord Snow that his brother was alive makes a lot more sense to me. Also fits with the changes form the books they have been making.

[sev]

- nevermind -

Edited April 28, 2014 by sev

[cosmic1]

I am not happy with the drastic changes from the book.  First of all, how did they get Ghost?  Last I saw, he was with Jon and the wildings.

 

Second, that whole Craster's Keep scene was really disgusting and off putting.  GRRM has some really nasty scenes, but these writers are taking things to a whole other level.  There are lots of implications with Bran being at the Keep instead of out in the wilderness fighting off WW's to get to the underground.  Did they make the change due to budget?  What is the purpose of the change?  I will be okay with it once I know the reason and if it enhances the story.  Otherwise, I'm not going to like it. 

 

I also don't appreciate being Unsullied - I feel like a person without a country, so to speak.  LOL.

[Rhondinella]

I was thinking the same thing:  so the WWs are an army of Crasterlings?  Oy

 

Well, that would explain why he felt the need to create babies with as many women as possible.  Did he have some kind of "deal" with the WW that if he provided them all the male babies they would leave him alone?

 

Also, Margaery is too smart to really have had no idea that her grandmother was responsible for Joffrey's death.

 

 

Yeah, I can't believe she didn't at least suspect Oleanna might have had something to do with it.

 

I mean, how can it be grooming if you don't want to sexually abuse the child?

 

 

Perhaps it's best to see it as using similar psychological tactics to achieve a different end.  She does want to control him, and have him dependent on her, just not for purposes of sexual manipulation.

 

but I like the friendship between Brienne and Pod too. They have the same sense of honor and loyalty.

 

 

I loved that the show sent them off on the adventure at the same time.  I was not looking forward to several scenes of Brienne suspicious that someone is stalking her, only to eventually have Pod emerge from the bushes just before she runs a sword through him.  That would have been tedious.

 

Question:  I haven't read the books in quite a while, so I don't remember how it is explained there (and I'm sorry if this should have been asked a couple eps ago).  How exactly was the jewel from the hairnet/necklace turned into poison?  I guess I remembered it being a liquid that was somehow concealed inside a hollow gem that was extracted.  But the show indicated that the gem was crushed into a powder?  If that's the case, it was a poison that could somehow be crystallized into a gem-like substance?  I guess?  I know nothing about chemistry.  Someone page Walter White, please!

[Mya Stone]

 

Question:  I haven't read the books in quite a while, so I don't remember how it is explained there (and I'm sorry if this should have been asked a couple eps ago).  How exactly was the jewel from the hairnet/necklace turned into poison?  I guess I remembered it being a liquid that was somehow concealed inside a hollow gem that was extracted.  But the show indicated that the gem was crushed into a powder?  If that's the case, it was a poison that could somehow be crystallized into a gem-like substance?  I guess?  I know nothing about chemistry.  Someone page Walter White, please!

 

Maester Cressen, may he RIP, attempted to use the Strangler on Melisandre. It was a crystalized purple gem, that was tasteless and odorless when crushed and placed into a liquid. 

 

I miss Walter White. But I'm sure it has the same amount of chemistry as he used, aka, blowing people up using mercury fulminate. ;) 

[Rhondinella]

Ok, thanks.  That confused me.  And even though I've read the books I can't help but agree a little with the Unsullied, many of whom are up in arms, saying that the murder plot was convoluted and in many places non-sensical.  The first thing I thought when I read the thing with the hairnet in the books was, "How did they know she'd wear the hairnet to the wedding?"  

 

Maybe there's an explanation in the books I'm forgetting?  But even if there is, there's no such logical explanation for Sansa wearing the necklace to the wedding in the show.  So they kinda have a point that this wasn't the most reliable murder plot in the world, at least as portrayed on the show.

[SimoneS]

 

Perhaps it's best to see it as using similar psychological tactics to achieve a different end.  She does want to control him, and have him dependent on her, just not for purposes of sexual manipulation.

 

You are describing Cercei and Tywin here, not Margaery. We have seen Margaery in two arranged marriages now. I have no doubt that she would not have chosen any of these men if given a choice. Yet she has shown herself to be clever and determined to make the best of her situation so she can survive. In the case of Renly, she was willing to do whatever it took to help him get her pregnant quickly to protect both of them. Joffery was a sadist monster so Margeary played to his vanity and encouraged him to be kind to his people so they would love him. Since she is likely to be married to Tommen, Margaery is trying to befriend and woo him so that his affection will strengthen their marriage and protect her from Cersei and their various enemies. I simply do not see Margaery's attempts to win over Tommen  as anything negative. He is lucky to have her in life given his incestuous brutal ruthless family.

Edited April 28, 2014 by SimoneS

[Skywarpgold]

Sam never told Jon that he ran across Bran and Co., right? 

 

Yeah, he never did. He even had thoughts about how hard it was to not tell him, in his POV chapters, I believe.

[mac123x]

I was paying attention to Aidan Gillan's voice, and he still sounds Irish. I've been watching Season 3 again with a friend who's still catching up to the series, and his accent has definitely changed. Not that I mind the actor's real accent, but after all this time, why?

 

I wonder if it’s a deliberate choice, not just the actor being lazy.  He’s originally from the Fingers area in The Vale, so maybe that’s supposed to be Littlefinger’s natural accent, and he’s been affecting RP while living in King’s Landing to fit in better.   He’s no longer trying to cozy up to the Lannisters, so he doesn’t need to talk like them.

 

Then again, Gillan was using his Irish accent while still in KL last season, so who knows, maybe he is just lazy.

 

And even though I've read the books I can't help but agree a little with the Unsullied, many of whom are up in arms, saying that the murder plot was convoluted and in many places non-sensical.  The first thing I thought when I read the thing with the hairnet in the books was, "How did they know she'd wear the hairnet to the wedding?"

 

In the books, Dontos told Sansa that it was a magical hairnet, and if she wore it to the wedding it would help her escape.  Sansa, still being something of a pin-head at this point in the narrative, bought the story.  (Okay, maybe she didn't think it was actually magical, but she did buy that it'd somehow help her escape.)

 

In the show, Dontos just gave her something pretty with a (fake) family story attached to it.  She liked it, and told him she'd be honored to wear it, but there was no guarantee she'd wear it to the wedding.

[Rhondinella]

Thanks for the reminder of how it went down in the book, Mac123x.  Yeah, I had forgotten the "magical" hairnet part.

 

But the fact that they don't include something like that in the show does make it hard to comprehend for non-book readers though.

[Independent George]

But the fact that they don't include something like that in the show does make it hard to comprehend for non-book readers though.

It really doesn't make any more sense in the books, either. The Unsullied are just picking up on a plot hole that exists in the source material.

[proserpina65]

I loved the insight we got to the WW's hierarchy. Creepy and really ramps the stakes up.

 

 

That's just about the only part of the Wall/Beyond the Wall section I liked - that, and Grenn and Edd standing up to join Jon's suicide mission.  The rest of that storyline has been screwed up beyond recognition most of the time, and I just can't with it at all.

[proserpina65]

The entire Craster's Keep storyline seems like filler.  I have a hard time believing Jon will meet up with Bran and then let him go.

 

Exactly.  There's so much else in a lot of the storylines that could've been fleshed out, and they choose this?  I don't mind some deviation, but rewriting this much is really starting to piss me off.

 

(Pardon the appearance - I'm having issues with the quote function right now.)

 

 

[DigitalCount]

"Sansa's not a killer...at least not yet."

Well, Tyrion, that's quite the five-o'clock foreshadow, isn't it? Good to know that Sansa is going to get a bit tougher down the line.

LOVED Grey Worm and Missandei getting screen time from their perspectives.

More later.

[matilda76]

I love how none of us is talking about Dany, despite her dominating the first 10-15 minutes of the episode. It's taken me longer than a lot of other ASOIAF/GoT fans, but at last I am completely bored with her storyline. I've been at about 50-60% saturation for a while now, but last night it reached 100%. The  character has gone from three-dimensional to nearly one-dimensional. I started out this series (the TV series) really loving the character, and I think the actress is quite talented (though the more she stares off into the distance with a haughty look on her face, the harder it is to remember this), but this Meereen stuff is really tedious. The Grey Worm/Missandei scene held my attention, but the static turned up as soon as Dany broke up the scene. Anything they can do to hasten this storyline toward Westeros is fiiiiine by me, because I do want to root for Dany. 

[blixie]

 

The entire Craster's Keep storyline seems like filler.  I have a hard time believing Jon will meet up with Bran and then let him go.

 

Right, again I don't mind that Bran is out of story and they need to stall, and who really wants to watch him merge with a Tree, but I don't see why THAT unpleasant never ending abomination had to be the filler (and I know it  happens in the book too, but it took up one chapter and justice was served almost immediately). And I can not really believe that Jon/Bran will stay reunited, if indeed they do reunite. My guess is Jon is held up due to Locke, Locke tries to snatch Bran up, but he and the other mutineers are all laid to waste when the Wights/White Walkers attack. The only thing that would really excite me about his is if we get Cold Hands, because I love that stoic half dead maybe (but probably not) Benjen Stark dude.

 

 

It really doesn't make any more sense in the books,

I think it does. LF/Dontos  been working Sansa for 6-8 months about escape and the hairnet being a signal/key, that she MUST wear. The question is why WOULDN'T she wear the damn thing? Sansa is very much a girly girl of chivalry heroes, dreams, magic, and beauty, give her something pretty, that is also supposed to be saving her life/helping her escape, and she's ON it. I don't doubt for a second LF had a plan B, but plan A worked out just fine. I've never understood how it's all that complicated a plan, and that whatever complications existed were to protect the actual people who plotted it in the clear: LF/Olenna. Olenna can't be tied to obtaining/buying poison, and LF can't be linked to delivering it. It's plan with two steps. Give poison hairnet to catspaw, get poison from catspaw into cup. The end.

[RapBert]

I love how none of us is talking about Dany, despite her dominating the first 10-15 minutes of the episode. It's taken me longer than a lot of other ASOIAF/GoT fans, but at last I am completely bored with her storyline. I've been at about 50-60% saturation for a while now, but last night it reached 100%.

 

I noticed this as well. Personally, I just don't care about Dany at all right now. Maybe it's because I know what's coming. Her chapters in ADWD bored me to tears, so I hope the line in the preview for the next episode about taking King's Landing means that she doesn't just sit on her ass for the rest of the season and will take a more proactive role in returning to Westeros.

[Haleth]

Right, again I don't mind that Bran is out of story and they need to stall, and who really wants to watch him merge with a Tree, but I don't see why THAT unpleasant never ending abomination had to be the filler (and I know it  happens in the book too, but it took up one chapter and justice was served almost immediately). And I can not really believe that Jon/Bran will stay reunited, if indeed they do reunite. My guess is Jon is held up due to Locke, Locke tries to snatch Bran up, but he and the other mutineers are all laid to waste when the Wights/White Walkers attack. The only thing that would really excite me about his is if we get Cold Hands, because I love that stoic half dead maybe (but probably not) Benjen Stark dude.

 

I think the Craster's Keep storyline is going to replace Cold Hands.  Guess the show writers thought an intersection of Bran with Jon's storyline would be more interesting to viewers.  I'm guessing Bran wargs into Summer (or maybe Hodor?), gets Ghost released and the wolves attack the mutineers before Jon gets there.  I know it won't happen but I'd love to see Locke have a change of heart (and allegiance) when he gets a load of what is going on beyond the Wall, whether it be the WWs or Mance's army.

[Tryangle]

Diana Rigg's pretty much stolen the show ever since Olenna's been in King's Landing, so her tale to Margeary about her own youthful antics, combined with her demonstration of her sleight-of-hand tricks, was a great wink to the audience who knew how capable Tracy Bond/Emma Peel was in younger days. Hope that they find a way to bring her back in some capacity down the line.

 

 

But I definitely wasn't impressed with the reveal either. Subtlety has never been their forte.

 

True, I think HBO underestimates the deductive powers of their viewing audience a bit much at times.

 

I wasn't overly fond of what appeared to be the show trying to demo a burgeoning romance between Grey Worm and Missandei; although I still hold hope it's just more of a platonic, strong-friendship vibe that comes about (reference, Grey Worm calling Daario "not smart" in episode 1 when Daario hinted that Grey had the hots for her). Not a major deal however it turns out, I guess (unless they Rakharo/Xaro his character down the line).

 

Tommen's set to be the new king; I can understand them moving him to Joffrey's old bedchambers if it was deemed safer/more kingly, but I think the young king needs to insist in a change of decor. He doesn't need an animal head staring down at him at night.

 

As for Margaery sneaking in to see him, I don't know if Tywin got that far with his birds and bees speech, but I think poor Tommen's got first hand exposure to what arousal feels like now.

 

As for Mutineers + capturing Bran + Locke and Jon on their trail, well I'm going to wait and see, and trust that they won't destroy some of the canon established in the books (I don't mind the extra fleshing of Bran's story, just have to be careful they don't break anything already set in stone - Jon meeting Bran could be a disaster)

[Rhondinella]

Was I the only one wryly amused when Locke was giving that fake story to Jon and he said he chose coming to the wall rather than losing a hand?  From the guy who cut off Jaime's hand, that can only be seen as ironic.  Heh.

 

Diana Rigg's pretty much stolen the show ever since Olenna's been in King's Landing, so her tale to Margeary about her own youthful antics, combined with her demonstration of her sleight-of-hand tricks, was a great wink to the audience who knew how capable Tracy Bond/Emma Peel was in younger days. Hope that they find a way to bring her back in some capacity down the line.

 

 

I also liked the suggestion I read today from Alan Sepinwall that if they ever do another (hopefully better) reboot of The Avengers that Natalie Dormer would be perfect as Emma Peel. I don't even like The Avengers, but I'd watch that.

 

I think the young king needs to insist in a change of decor

 

 

I don't disagree, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.  Between Cersei, Tywin and Margaery, I don't think Tommen's going to have much say about much of anything.  Unless he turns into a monster like his brother.

[that one guy]

Graves doesn't know how to shoot creepy but consensual sex.)

The more I think about it, the more I think a big part of the problem was in the editing. Graves has said he shot a scene that starts out nonconsensual but ends up consensual. As seen on TV, the scene is just nonconsensual. The logical explanation is that in the final edit, the scene is cut, and the audience doesn't see what was filmed. And as a standalone episode, that's a better choice, because the whole "she says no but really means yes" thing is creepy and wrong. But there's a huge disconnect between 4.03 and 4.04 as a result, because Jaime continues on as if nothing has happened. Cersei's a wreck, but she has any number of reasons to be so. She's the one who first uttered the "you win or you die" line, and she's not winning. And Jaime's character progression is still screwed up, it still treats him as someone we should root for when we're back to seeing him as the guy who throws kids out the window and murders innocent guardsmen in the street to make a point.

I like the changes to the Bran storyline, because not much happens to him in the books. If they'd gone with the Coldhands story from the book, there's only enough material for maybe two travel scenes and a zombie attack this season. They just have to give him something more to do.

 

I also like that Sam told Jon he'd seen Bran, because not telling him in the books was one of those things where a character does something necessary for the plot that's extremely out of character. Sam, as established in both the books and the TV show, is going to tell Jon he's seen his brother, because he trusts Jon and knows he's distraught about the news that his family is dead. Given the opportunity to help his friend feel better, he's not going to keep quiet just because he swore it to somebody he doesn't know. Sam's more of a personal loyalty guy than a legalistic principle guy. He wasn't supposed to help Gilly, either. Doing so violated Mormont's orders. In the books, he violates one oath but not the other because plot. On TV, he's consistent. He doesn't follow Bran's instructions because he thinks Bran's wrong.

 

Except for last week's rape scene screwup, I generally like the show's choices better where it deviates.

[Grammaeryn]

Over at io9, the Night King appearance is kicking up some awesome ideas.  One of the legends says he was a Stark so Bran's storyline could get a lot more interesting if Bran can stop being a tree.  The changes to Jon and Bran's stories in this episode felt fine to me.  For so many books I was angsting over how close they were to finding each other.  I really hope the show will keep the Elayne Stone alias for Sansa.  The fact that she needed to keep up an act for her own aunt made Lyssa seem more unstable/creepy.  Another cool thing to note is that the Night King was with a woman who had ice blue eyes, white hair, and skin as cold as snow.  If you flip all of that, red hair, eyes of fire, and warm skin who do you get? 

[Attaboy000]

Over at io9, the Night King appearance is kicking up some awesome ideas.  One of the legends says he was a Stark so Bran's storyline could get a lot more interesting if Bran can stop being a tree.  The changes to Jon and Bran's stories in this episode felt fine to me.  For so many books I was angsting over how close they were to finding each other.  I really hope the show will keep the Elayne Stone alias for Sansa.  The fact that she needed to keep up an act for her own aunt made Lyssa seem more unstable/creepy.  Another cool thing to note is that the Night King was with a woman who had ice blue eyes, white hair, and skin as cold as snow. If you flip all of that, red hair, eyes of fire, and warm skin who do you get?

 

WHOA!!!

 

Mind = blown

[Rhondinella]

And Jaime's character progression is still screwed up, it still treats him as someone we should root for when we're back to seeing him as the guy who throws kids out the window and murders innocent guardsmen in the street to make a point.

 

 

I'm reading/hearing a lot of people who agree with you, but I actually don't have a problem with this.  I mean, I wouldn't want to be friends with him, but as a character it works for me.  The thing that attracts me to this show is the moral ambiguity of most of the characters.  The fact is that in real life few people are all black or all white.  Everyone has shades of gray, some more than others.  It's why I loved the character of Snape in HP--because you never knew exactly which side he was on.  I hated that he was "redeemed" in the end because she had to find a way to make him good.  JKR apparently couldn't live with ambiguity.  

 

But I find that consistent with real life, especially in a kingdom like this where being either all good (Ned, Robb, etc). or purely bad (Joffrey, et. al.) will end up getting you killed eventually.  You have to be able to play the nuances of every situation in Westeros to survive very long.   So I totally believe a guy who can push a kid out a window, then make an emotional connection with a very unlikely woman that drives him to save her life, then kill his cousin, then confess to saving thousands of people, then raping his sister.  I think all those things can be held in tension with each other in a character.  Even if they are trying to give Jaime a redemption arc, no true redemption is that simple.  It's not all a straight line forward from evil to good; there is surely backsliding along the way.

 

Characters who are only good or bad are boring, and don't last long in this world.

 

As to Cersei's reaction this week: I don't think it's necessarily indicative that she didn't see the situation as rape.  I think it's natural that a woman who had been raped by her brother/former lover wouldn't have complex emotions about that.  To assume that she would naturally lash out and confront him directly about it is not to understand how victims of sexual abuse often behave.  And this case of abuse is even more difficult to wrap one's head around than one involving two strangers. After all, she was routinely forced to have sex against her will by her former husband.  I seriously doubt she confronted him about it every time it happened.  She was forced to suck it up and find a way to get on with her life.  So I think we can read some of her anguish and anger in this scene as related to the rape, as well as Joffrey's death, even if she doesn't directly address it with Jaime. That may never happen; it doesn't mean she wasn't raped.

[sev]

What, no music at the end? See, here I would almost have felt like hearing a punk tune similar to the one they had when Jaime lost his hand. I thought out of character for the series, back then... I feel more sarcastic now with the screwing up of Jaime, the boob and bordello quota, and the WTFuckery in this ep.

 

I'm glad there was no mention of the sept fiasco. In fact the moods in this ep would feel consistent to them having had no sex at all in the sept, broke off after Cersei recoiled from Jaime ('s hand).  So that's how I'm going to delude myself because the the book version wouldn't fit either.

Edited April 29, 2014 by sev

[Fable]

I liked the character changes in this episode, especially for Bran.  I liked Bran in the books because I found him to be sympathetic, but his POV chapters were the most boring for me to read, because Bran turning into a tree, well, no thanks! 

 

One scene I found very poignant was Bronn with Jaime, explaining how he became Tyrion's champion, that Tyrion asked for Jaime, but Bronn had to step in because Lysa demanded a trial immediately.  I don't think Bronn and Jaime had any dialogue together in the book, if I recall, and this was welcoming.  

 

I don't really mind not knowing everything to come.  I only read the books last fall, so I was completely unsullied through all of season 3, and a few twists don't bother me because, with all due respects to GRRM, sometimes the books fell flat!

[Gudzilla]

 

Characters who are only good or bad are boring,

Say what you will about him Joffrey was never boring.

 

 

poor Tommen's got first hand exposure to what arousal feels like now.

I was thinking lucky Tommen.

[spiderling]

So thanks in part to Craster, the Others are inbreds. White Trash Walkers?

[Haleth]

I think they missed a bit of dialog at the end.  WW on horseback rides up to Icy Stonehenge and places the baby on a raised platform.  The horned guy (Night King?  Is that what we're calling him?) approaches and says, "What?  Another one?  You've got to be kidding me!"  Original WW replies, "Yeah, they left another kid out in the snow.  What's wrong with those people? <sigh>  Guess we've got to take this one in too."

 

What if Craster had it all wrong and the WWs were not looking for more mouths to feed but were instead acting humanely and rescuing all the abandoned babies?  

(Of course I'm kidding.)

[Independent George]

As for Margaery sneaking in to see him, I don't know if Tywin got that far with his birds and bees speech, but I think poor Tommen's got first hand exposure to what arousal feels like now.

 

That makes me think of Krieger, on Archer: "And I got an erection that didn't involve homeless people!".

[Zalyn]

I think they missed a bit of dialog at the end.  WW on horseback rides up to Icy Stonehenge and places the baby on a raised platform.  The horned guy (Night King?  Is that what we're calling him?) approaches and says, "What?  Another one?  You've got to be kidding me!"  Original WW replies, "Yeah, they left another kid out in the snow.  What's wrong with those people? <sigh>  Guess we've got to take this one in too."

 

What if Craster had it all wrong and the WWs were not looking for more mouths to feed but were instead acting humanely and rescuing all the abandoned babies?  

(Of course I'm kidding.)

This is awesome.  "Night King's School for Abandoned, Inbred Orphans."  Note that the baby didn't cry while it was being carried by the White Walker. 

 

This could explain why they're attacking the humans; they finally got fed up with how terrible they apparently are to their babies.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Zalyn

[Mr. Simpatico]

I liked the character changes in this episode, especially for Bran.  I liked Bran in the books because I found him to be sympathetic, but his POV chapters were the most boring for me to read, because Bran turning into a tree, well, no thanks!

 

I like the changes too. It seems most people assume that Rickon was created because Bran will obviously never be Lord of Winterfell or that Sansa will eventually rule then North (this seems to be a favorite fancanon) because Bran will become a tree.Yet, it seems obvious the Bran has a lot of story potential beyond becoming the next three-eyed crow. He has the same name of the legendary Stark, Brandon the Builder (who's name has come up a lot in the books), which can't be an accident, his story kicks off the action of the entire series, he has warg/greenseer abiltiies beyond any other character, he could easily become one of the dragon riders by warging into one of Dany's dragons, he can see into the past and can contact his siblings in their dreams, he is the de jure King in the North and Lord of Winterfell at this point, his is a story of a boy who wanted to become a knight, is crippled, shows himself to be a humane lord beyond his age (Joffrey and Bran are purposefully opposite mirrors of each other IMO) and beyond his handicap. He has so much potential and yet GRRM basically has him stuck in the middle of nowhere doing nothing.

 

So if the show does anything to improve his storyline I see they go all for it and make whatever changes will move the story along. Bran, Jojen, Meera (and Hodor) are too interesting to waste.

[Carrie Ann]

In a lot of ways, I would have been fine with Tree Bran if he were excited about it. But he's not. He is scared and disappointed and unhappy. I don't want him doomed to that life simply because he's able to do that. I hope GRRM finds another way for him, and I'm glad the show has given him other stuff in the meantime.

 

For awhile I felt like all the characters who were interacting with the supernatural in some way wouldn't also become rulers in a traditional sense because this world has seemed to be without magic for so long, that I just thought it wouldn't make sense. No one in the current administration believes in any of that stuff. But now it seems like the supernatural is making a comeback, and I wonder if all the people who can tap into that spiritual realm are going to ascend. People like the Starks who are wargs--particularly Bran because he's Special and Arya with her face-changing; Dany who has her dragons and is apparently impervious to fire; Melisandre and Qyburn with...whatever it is they do.

[Hanahope]

Just in comment to someone above who said that we'd never know what happens to the Crayster babies in the book since there's no "Other" or "White Walker" POV, GRRM does provide "other povs" in the prologue and epilogue portions of the books, there's just only the two 'extra' chapters that give us another part of the story that isn't being covered by that standard charaters' povs.  It is nice, though, that the TV show can give us even more of those and make some good changes, as pointed out by others, particularly increasing Bron's role, more Margary/Oleanna conspiracies, giving Bran something to do (although I too think we'll still get a 'near miss' of Jon and Bran meeting - that seems to be quite the GRRM standard).

[OakGoblinFly]

This might be the first "Book Talk" episode that no one knows WTF  to compare it to. 

 

I know - other than Jamie sending Pod and Brienne off on the worst road trip ever and the brief conversation between Littlefinger and Sansa I wondered where the rest of the material came from and why it was changed.

 

That being said, I do like the little seeds that are being planted for Jon's up-coming stories and the beginning of Cersei's trip to Crazy Town.

[ebevan91]

I have a feeling things will get back on track after this "Kill mutineers/Save Bran" sidequest that Jon is on. Bran will continue to go north, and Jon will go back to the Wall to prepare for the wildling battle.

[Lady S.]

That being said, I do like the little seeds that are being planted for Jon's up-coming stories and the beginning of Cersei's trip to Crazy Town.

You mean like the foreshadowing of Jon describing how Mormont was betrayed by brothers and murdered by cowards? That was almost as good as his telling Robb "you Starks are hard to kill".

[dr pepper]

Grammaeryn, on 28 Apr 2014 - 2:05 PM, said:

 

    Over at io9, the Night King appearance is kicking up some awesome ideas.  One of the legends says he was a Stark so Bran's storyline could get a lot more interesting if Bran can stop being a tree.  The changes to Jon and Bran's stories in this episode felt fine to me.  For so many books I was angsting over how close they were to finding each other.  I really hope the show will keep the Elayne Stone alias for Sansa.  The fact that she needed to keep up an act for her own aunt made Lyssa seem more unstable/creepy.  Another cool thing to note is that the Night King was with a woman who had ice blue eyes, white hair, and skin as cold as snow. If you flip all of that, red hair, eyes of fire, and warm skin who do you get?

 

WHOA!!!

 

Mind = blown

hmm, quoting seems to be broken.

 

I can go with that mirroring, but i hope that they don't turn out to be sisters or something like that.

Edited April 30, 2014 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

But I find that consistent with real life, especially in a kingdom like this where being either all good (Ned, Robb, etc). or purely bad (Joffrey, et. al.) will end up getting you killed eventually.  You have to be able to play the nuances of every situation in Westeros to survive very long.   So I totally believe a guy who can push a kid out a window, then make an emotional connection with a very unlikely woman that drives him to save her life, then kill his cousin, then confess to saving thousands of people, then raping his sister.  I think all those things can be held in tension with each other in a character.  Even if they are trying to give Jaime a redemption arc, no true redemption is that simple.  It's not all a straight line forward from evil to good; there is surely backsliding along the way.

 

"Hello. My name is Jaime and i'm an evil doer"

 

"Hello, Jaime!"

 

"You know how they say this redemption thing, is not something that happens all at once?"

 

"Yeah, i know it! Me too! It's a process!"

 

"Well, i um, kinda forgot that this week. Like a fool, i thought it was getting easier. I hadn't commited any heinous acts in almost 6 months. Yeah. In my mind i was already showing off that six month token. You can probably guess what happened then?"

 

"I hear you, we've all been there! Stay strong, Brother!"

 

"Yeah, i went out and raped! In a church! In front of a dead body!"

 

"It happens to the best of us! You just have to pick yourself up and do better next time!"

 

"That's what my sponsor says, and that's what i'm doing! I need to remind myself that you're never actually free, you have to keep up, keep working the program."

 

"Do the steps! Do the steps"

 

"Thank you for listening, if i make it at all, it's only through your support"

 

"We're here for you, Jamie!"

 

"Thnk you again. And i'd like to extend a special thanks to my sponsor. You really seem to understand what i'm going through, Huck!"

[Haleth]

Over at io9, the Night King appearance is kicking up some awesome ideas.  One of the legends says he was a Stark so Bran's storyline could get a lot more interesting if Bran can stop being a tree.

 

Where in the books is there anything about the Night King?  I don't remember reading anything about him.

[mac123x]

Another cool thing to note is that the Night King was with a woman who had ice blue eyes, white hair, and skin as cold as snow. If you flip all of that, red hair, eyes of fire, and warm skin who do you get?

 

I'm having a brain-lock moment:  to whom are you referring?  I initially thought "Ygritte" because of her "kissed by fire" schtick, but your description matches Mellisandre better.  So if she's the counterpart of the Night King's wife, then Stannis is the counterpart of the Night King?  Interesting.

 

Where in the books is there anything about the Night King?  I don't remember reading anything about him.

 

I think it's when Bran and company are at one of the abandoned castles on the Wall, just prior to running into Sam.  Bran recounts the story of the Rat Cook, and the story of the Night King.

[Haleth]

Thanks, mac. I found it. If anyone else wants to revisit the story it's on page 762 in the paperback SoS, indeed while Bran and everyone are at the Nightfort.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Haleth

[scout1207]

 

 

Today @ 9:21 am

Quote

Another cool thing to note is that the Night King was with a woman who had ice blue eyes, white hair, and skin as cold as snow. If you flip all of that, red hair, eyes of fire, and warm skin who do you get?

 

I'm having a brain-lock moment:  to whom are you referring?  I initially thought "Ygritte" because of her "kissed by fire" schtick, but your description matches Mellisandre better.  So if she's the counterpart of the Night King's wife, then Stannis is the counterpart of the Night King?  Interesting.

 

 

 Okay, I'm really off. Because I thought the OP was referring to Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn).