S05.E20: Underneath

[bijoux]

16 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Some 520-related posts at https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ on May 3...

kasumikai asked:
Hey marc can you give a specific time period when the flashback olicity sex scene happened?
We didn’t have a specific one in mind, but it was closer to 501 than 423.

423 happened a bit over 12 months ago. 501 was 7 months ago. 11 is closer to 7 than to 12? These people's inability to do basic maths will never not be funny.

Now that somebody pointed it out, I hear honey after that last, I got you, as well. ?

[way2interested]

Just now, bijoux said:

Now that somebody pointed it out, I hear honey after that last, I got you, as well. ?

Yeah, not to mention, it kind of makes their pause make a bit more sense (not that I needed it to, c'mon), like "woah, we just went there."

[immortalfrieza]

43 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

So it's ok and perfectly reasonable to marry someone while NOT telling them that you have other children on the side. 

Children that they may be legally required to pay child support for once you get married?

A person is not required to tell their current or future spouse everything about everything, including their past relationships and any children they may have if the spouse does not become directly involved themselves and/or it interferes with their relationship and living situation. If Oliver had been sleeping in another woman while he and Felicity were in a monogamous relationship and that resulted in William that would be cheating and thus actually involve Felicity, but the fact that this relationship with William's mother which resulted in William happened long before Felicity and Oliver even knew each other and didn't effect her life or Oliver and Felicity's relationship in any way until Damian Darhk came along made it none of her business.

36 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

This makes no sense. If they got married and Samantha sued Oliver for alimony whose money do you think she would have come after? Felicity's since she was the one having a job. If Samantha died who was going to have to take William in, take care of him, raise him? Felicity since Oliver was busy being the GA and mayor during the day.

Until something like either of these things were to happen it isn't Felicity's business unless Oliver permits it to be even if they are or are going to get married. If any of these sorts of things happened Felicity would now be directly involved and thus it would become Felicity's business and thus she would have a right to know, but if nothing as such happened even for her entire life happened resulted in Felicity having any involvement in William's life it would remain not her business until the day she died.

Quote

Since they were engaged and almost got married Felicity was going to be involved in Willaim's life.

No, since they were engaged and almost got married Felicity was going to be involved in OLIVER'S life, and anything that does not involve her he has the right to keep private. The only ones that were involved in William's life until Damion Darhk kidnapped him and thus Felicity and the gang had to intervene were the mother, Oliver, and William, that's it.

36 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

 

He wasn't honest WITH HER. That's the whole point. You owe loyalty to the people in your life and not in the same way to strangers. Or if a husband cheats on his wife and his lover tells him "promise me you won't tell your wife" he is honorable because he kept that promise? Or if you share your life and are committed to a person you owe her more?

No, loyalty is not a "I have to tell you everything including that have nothing to do with you whatsoever" card, nor is trust. Oliver has always trusted Felicity, it's not about trust, it's about keeping something private for his own reasons as is his right to do so. Oliver was not being dishonest with Felicity by not telling her, he simply decided not to tell her. If Felicity asked Oliver something like "Hey Oliver, any chance you had some kids out of wedlock?" and Oliver said "No," after he knew about William's existence, THEN that would be dishonest. Oliver didn't tell Felicity what that happened in the 5 years the Queen's Gambit went down either until he felt he could talk about it and when Felicity became directly involved in things that were a consequence of those events because he didn't feel comfortable talking about it at the time and it was none of her business even after they got together, and he had a right not to tell her with that too. That's not dishonesty either, it's simply deciding not to inform someone of something for his own reasons, no deception exists there whatsoever.

I guess I just value privacy, integrity, honor, and honesty too much.

Edited May 4, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Chaser]

That's terrifying.

[Hiveminder]

34 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Some 520-related posts at https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ on May 3...

kasumikai asked:
Hey marc can you give a specific time period when the flashback olicity sex scene happened?
We didn’t have a specific one in mind, but it was closer to 501 than 423.

Felicity's math is always right. MG's? Basically never. 

There was a freaking little title card on the screen when the flashbacks started, MG. You wrote it on the screen. Come on, man.

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Until something like either of these things were to happen it isn't Felicity's business unless Oliver permits it to be even if they are or are going to get married. If any of these sorts of things happened Felicity would now be directly involved and thus it would become Felicity's business and thus she would have a right to know, but if nothing as such happened even for her entire life happened resulted in Felicity having any involvement in William's life it would remain not her business until the day she died.

So it would be okay if Oliver didn't tell Felicity about William until minutes before she had to write out a check for child support? "Hey, honey, so I found out I had a kid months ago and I've been visiting him, but I couldn't tell you because his mother made me lie even though she's been lying to me for years, and hey, by the way, I need money and since I have none, I need you to pay." 

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, after they get married, Felicity has all the legal and financial responsibilities of a step-mom, whether she knows about William or not.  I think it would be dishonest and sorta fraudulent of him not to tell Felicity about William after he proposed because she basically agreed to something not knowing all the terms that came with it.

Also, who paid for Oliver's secret trips to visit William in Central City?  I am guessing Felicity paid for it (since she was the only one with a job at the time), without knowing what it was for.

Edited May 4, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

A person is not required to tell their current or future spouse everything about everything, including their past relationships and any children they may have if the spouse does not become directly involved themselves and/or it interferes with their relationship and living situation. If Oliver had been sleeping in another woman while he and Felicity were in a monogamous relationship and that resulted in William that would be cheating and thus actually involve Felicity, but the fact that this relationship with William's mother which resulted in William happened long before Felicity and Oliver even knew each other and didn't effect her life or Oliver and Felicity's relationship in any way until Damian Darhk came along made it none of her business.

Until something like either of these things were to happen it isn't Felicity's business unless Oliver permits it to be even if they are or are going to get married. If any of these sorts of things happened Felicity would now be directly involved and thus it would become Felicity's business and thus she would have a right to know, but if nothing as such happened even for her entire life happened resulted in Felicity having any involvement in William's life it would remain not her business until the day she died.

No, since they were engaged and almost got married Felicity was going to be involved in OLIVER'S life, and anything that does not involve her he has the right to keep private. The only ones that were involved in William's life until Damion Darhk kidnapped him and thus Felicity and the gang had to intervene were the mother, Oliver, and William, that's it.

No, loyalty is not a "I have to tell you everything including that have nothing to do with you whatsoever" card, nor is trust. Oliver has always trusted Felicity, it's not about trust, it's about keeping something private for his own reasons as is his right to do so. Oliver was not being dishonest with Felicity by not telling her, he simply decided not to tell her. If Felicity asked Oliver something like "Hey Oliver, any chance you had some kids out of wedlock?" and Oliver said "No," after he knew about William's existence, THEN that would be dishonest. Oliver didn't tell Felicity what that happened in the 5 years the Queen's Gambit went down either until he felt he could talk about it and when Felicity became directly involved in things that were a consequence of those events because he didn't feel comfortable talking about it at the time and it was none of her business even after they got together, and he had a right not to tell her with that too. That's not dishonesty either, it's simply deciding not to inform someone of something for his own reasons, no deception exists there whatsoever.

I guess I just value privacy, integrity, honor, and honesty too much.

What you're describing is not a relationship. It's strangers who have sex. 

If I wasn't on my phone right now I'd post a gif of that commercial where the old woman is showing her friends her 'wall', but it's her actual wall instead of Facebook because that's not how relationships work. That's not how any kind of relationship works. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

14 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

A person is not required to tell their current or future spouse everything about everything, including their past relationships and any children they may have if the spouse does not become directly involved themselves and/or it interferes with their relationship and living situation. If Oliver had been sleeping in another woman while he and Felicity were in a monogamous relationship and that resulted in William that would be cheating and thus actually involve Felicity, but the fact that this relationship with William's mother which resulted in William happened long before Felicity and Oliver even knew each other and didn't effect her life or Oliver and Felicity's relationship in any way until Damian Darhk came along made it none of her business.

Until something like either of these things were to happen it isn't Felicity's business unless Oliver permits it to be even if they are or are going to get married. If any of these sorts of things happened Felicity would now be directly involved and thus it would become Felicity's business and thus she would have a right to know, but if nothing as such happened even for her entire life happened resulted in Felicity having any involvement in William's life it would remain not her business until the day she died.

No, since they were engaged and almost got married Felicity was going to be involved in OLIVER'S life, and anything that does not involve her he has the right to keep private. The only ones that were involved in William's life until Damion Darhk kidnapped him and thus Felicity and the gang had to intervene were the mother, Oliver, and William, that's it.

No, loyalty is not a "I have to tell you everything including that have nothing to do with you whatsoever" card, nor is trust. Oliver has always trusted Felicity, it's not about trust, it's about keeping something private for his own reasons as is his right to do so. Oliver was not being dishonest with Felicity by not telling her, he simply decided not to tell her. If Felicity asked Oliver something like "Hey Oliver, any chance you had some kids out of wedlock?" and Oliver said "No," after he knew about William's existence, THEN that would be dishonest. Oliver didn't tell Felicity what that happened in the 5 years the Queen's Gambit went down either until he felt he could talk about it and when Felicity became directly involved in things that were a consequence of those events because he didn't feel comfortable talking about it at the time and it was none of her business even after they got together, and he had a right not to tell her with that too. That's not dishonesty either, it's simply deciding not to inform someone of something for his own reasons, no deception exists there whatsoever.

The moment you get married you get involved. It's not a choice! What kind of view of relationships do you have? Of course if the person you are about to marry has children from previous relationships he has to tell you because, I'm repeating it, you WILL get involved. That's what happens when people get married. You aren't required to tell a person how many one night stands you had in your life or how many pets have you had growing up but children? Yes. Because sooner or later they will be part of your life. And this is the type of information you have to give before getting married because after it's too late obviously. After you have become involved if you want it, you are ready for it, or not. Same thing if one of the two has a physical condition that prevents them from conceiving a child for example. You could say it's his/her health so he/she doesn't have to share but in case they decide to have kids it will directly affect the other person so you have to share. Actually if you don't it's grounds for an annulment. 

Lying by omission is still lying. If they got married Oliver would have made Felicity a stepmom without her knowledge and that's deceiving a person.

Imagine your dad coming home one day and introducing you and your mom to his secret family he has in another city? Do you think it wouldn't affect your mom's and your life?

[tv echo]

I loved this episode for reasons already stated by others above. I also thought this episode had its flaws, also for reasons already stated by others above.

So Dinah once worked undercover with a gang of safe-crackers. Just like she once worked undercover with a gang that liked to train with bo staffs. This is going to be a running gag deus ex machina next season as well, right? Every time she needs an extra skill immediately, she'll remember learning it while undercover.

One nitpick - at the beginning, the lighting in the bunker was so weird and Oliver's & Felicity's faces were so blurry that I thought there was a problem with my tv screen.

Edited May 4, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I feel like I need to add this even though I'm the only person who cares: That sexy times top would have totally worked with a skirt!

[Primetimer]

Oliver and Felicity can't escape each other, so they're forced to address their relationship. And also escape the deadly methane.

View the full article

[Cleanqueen]

14 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I feel like I need to add this even though I'm the only person who cares: That sexy times top would have totally worked with a skirt!

It would, but could Emily grind that well with a tight pencil skirt? Also that top was like $1000

53 minutes ago, bijoux said:

423 happened a bit over 12 months ago. 501 was 7 months ago. 11 is closer to 7 than to 12? These people's inability to do basic maths will never not be funny.

Now that somebody pointed it out, I hear honey after that last, I got you, as well. ?

WHAT THE FUCK?!?? I HATE THEM SERIOUSLY.

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, Cleanqueen said:

It would, but could Emily grind that well with a tight pencil skirt? Also that top was like $1000

 

I was thinking like a shorter flared one, she wore one like that in season 2 with a tight top. Then she could swing and we'd see her legs and undies! And she could still straddle him. 

I will give it up now!

[Cleanqueen]

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I was thinking like a shorter flared one, she wore one like that in season 2 with a tight top. Then she could swing and we'd see her legs and undies! And she could still straddle him. 

I will give it up now!

GUUURL it's too early to take my mind there.

[ladylaw99]

First I like to say how wonderful it is to come on this board and everyone excited about Arrow again.

I too loved this episode for reasons others have described perfectly.

 Was it perfect no but I'll take it.  My OTA was back and boy did I miss you.  I can't explain how happy I was that it was Diggle that rescued Oliver and Felicity in the elevator.  Those three for me are the heart and soul of Arrow, writers don't be stupid and write towards them not away.  OTA is really why I watch this show, it started with the three of them and it  should always have some kind of focus.

I can't believe I am saying this but I too like the B team.  What is this world coming to.  HAHA.  They actual made me chuckle and blended well in the episode.

Those sexy times - what can I say that you guys haven't already said, it was HOT!!!  Why these writers ever thought it was a good idea to write away from them I will never understand.  Don't fix what is not broken - I hope they learnt their lesson.

The last few minutes, well, there is always something stupid in a episode and this happened to be it.  Did I like it - no, can I understand it - sort of - do I really can at this point - not really.  I have come to accept the writers are not going to let go of the way they think about this situation so I am ready to let it go but, I do not want to hear about it again.  Please be done.

Willy, little stupid Willy, the spawn that does not want to go away.  I hate talking negatively about kids because I love kids but man, they have reduced this 10-13 year old to the mentality of a five year old., actually some five year olds are smarter.  What the ?????  I can't really blame the kid because his mother did not teach him any street smarts.  What kid wouldn't have any red-flags at a stranger who knows your real name?  A name you changed for protection, you know because you have been already kidnapped?  I can't even deal with this kind of stupid.  Please let this be the end of this storyline, let this season set it free and never to come back.  I have been good Arrow, I watched your show when I would have quit others, please give me this.

Edited May 5, 2017 by ladylaw99
clearly I can't spell

[jay741982]

6 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I was thinking like a shorter flared one, she wore one like that in season 2 with a tight top. Then she could swing and we'd see her legs and undies! And she could still straddle him. 

I will give it up now!

Bless you. You said it before I did the benifts of EBR wearing a skirt. She's got a rocking bod. Seeing her in Bra and Panties would be nice for the eye candy 

[Trisha]

I think I didn't have a big problem with Felicity apologizing because the entire secret son storyline was so dumb and misguided from the start, there was no way the resolution wouldn't end up being dumb as well. I also thought her saying "I'm sorry for the extent I judged you" is different than just "I'm sorry," and I appreciated the distinction. 

This was also a pretty great explanation. I wish it was clearer onscreen, but headcanon accepted!

[Guest]

I'm still not happy about Felicity's apology tbh. Or should I say, I'm not happy that she apologized about the whole William part. I accept her saying sorry for walking away because while I do think she had every right to walk at that moment, I also think they should have talked about their relationship (and William). But I really could've done without her saying she was a hypocrite and that she understood why he lied about William. They basically put the blame for the break-up entirely on her shoulders and that just isn't fair. HE STILL LIED. No matter the intentions, he lied to the woman he planned to marry about having a child. You just don't do that. 

But then I knew this would happen so I'm not so much angry as I am resigned that they'll throw their female characters under the bus sometimes. It is what it is tbh. And the rest of the episode was so good I just kinda have to accept it. But then that does depend on where Olicity go from here. I guess we'll see!

Edited May 4, 2017 by Guest

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I think I didn't have a big problem with Felicity apologizing because the entire secret son storyline was so dumb and misguided from the start, there was no way the resolution wouldn't end up being dumb as well. I also thought her saying "I'm sorry for the extent I judged you" is different than just "I'm sorry," and I appreciated the distinction. 

This was also a pretty great explanation. I wish it was clearer onscreen, but headcanon accepted!

I agree with the second post and with what you said..I don't think either there could be a resolution that wouldn't have been dumb because of how dumb the situation they had to fix was.

The first one is inaccurate imo because Felicity said he wasn't going to change in 416 but in 420 she told him she said that because she was hurt but even if he isn't perfect everyone can change..so she pretty much took the judgment she made back.

[Guest]

Oh, I didn't hate Curtis in this episode. And I actually chuckled at his "I'm sorry my unbearable pain is annoying you!" or whatever he said when Diggle was patching him up. They definitely balanced Curtis' quirks a lot better in this one.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Guest

[looptab]

Did they cut the scene that was in the sizzle reel with Felicity saying 'Freeze jerkwad'? Or is tgat supposed to be in a later episode?

[way2interested]

3 minutes ago, looptab said:

Did they cut the scene that was in the sizzle reel with Felicity saying 'Freeze jerkwad'? Or is tgat supposed to be in a later episode?

I'm thinking it's later since the whole flashback took place during one day

[wonderwall]

8 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

This show still retconned the list into a kill list and used the Bratvia flashbacks, while still having Oliver believe Chase's lie after all this time, so unless they retcon Oliver's attitude about killing back to how it actually was during the show before this season I'm not going to be forgiving the writers for that still.

How was it a retcon when it was specifically stated in the episode that Chase tortured Oliver for 6 days and literally warped his mind into thinking he likes killing? It doesn't change a thing from previous seasons. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by wonderwall

[leopardprint]

In response to that tumblr(?) post above:

How has the show shown that what Oliver did was wrong though? Thea flat out told him he did the right thing and all subsequent conversation from Diggle and Vixen was about his relationship with his son going forward (unless I forgot somerhing). The consequences he suffered was Felicity dumping him but now she seems to be apologizing for that and being too hasty? Now, I do think there was room for Felicity to apologize but I think they should have had Oliver apologize at the same time as well to make it less one sided. Oliver also did additional things to Felicity in service to that lie that he should apologize for. He absolutely should have apologized for leaving her while grievously injured to go visit his secret family. 

Basically, here's my problem with the apology, Felicity apologized to Oliver because he took that course of action clouded by all the major trauma he endured. Felicity isn't extended the same courtesy though, that her actions are informed by the trauma she endured and she's apologizing for that. 

I apologize to y'all for using the word apologize eleven times. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by leopardprint

[wonderwall]

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

How has the show shown that what Oliver did was wrong though? Thea flat out told him he did the right thing and all subsequent conversation from Diggle and Vixen was about his relationship with his son going forward (unless I forgot somerhing).

For me it was shown in how:

1) Felicity broke up with him
2) Oliver acknowledged that he will never lie to her again (which means it was wrong to do so in the first place)
3) Again in this episode it was reiterated that Oliver's lack of trust is what broke them and that William was symptomatic of a bigger issue which shows that even in the summer Felicity still felt like Oliver messed up - which he did. 

IMO If it was shown that Oliver didn't do anything wrong - Felicity wouldn't have broken up with him in the first place. But that's just me.

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

The consequences he suffered was Felicity dumping him but now she seems to be apologizing for that and being too hasty?

I don't think Felicity apologized for dumping him. I think she apologized for walking away before talking about it. She says she now understands his decisions. But she didn't apologize for breaking up with him.

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

He absolutely should have apologized for leaving her while grievously injured to go visit his secret family. 

Was it ever confirmed he actually left Felicity while she was in the hospital to go visit his family? Because I don't think he did considering his state in 410. He didn't seem in the headspace to visit them then.

Edited May 4, 2017 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

Quote

hotsforlaurel asked:
The episode seriously killed the amazing momentum s5 has been building up since 5x01. A huge misstep. Please stop olicity once and for all....
As a long-time television watcher and a reasonably long-tine television writer/producer, I honestly have a difficult time seeing how any romantic relationship or lack thereof can influence a series or episode’s quality or lack thereof.  That’s just my perspective.  I fully recognize and appreciate that other people may have a different opinion.

Wow.  This is so symptomatic of why I find MG at times so frustrating.  I'm not even sure I believe him. Of course a romantic relationship can influence a series or episode' quality one way or the other.  Any relationship can. At one time he even acknowledged getting the audience to care about Oliver's relationships was crucial.  You can't just tack of "romantic" and then claim it doesn't add or take away anything from a show.  

I have to believe he is just expressing himself badly cause his position as stated does not compute.

[leopardprint]

13 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Was it ever confirmed he actually left Felicity while she was in the hospital to go visit his family? Because I don't think he did considering his state in 410. He didn't seem in the headspace to visit them then.

IIRC, he said he was going back and forth to Central City in the Thea is dying episode and sorry it wasn't clear, I meant while she was recuperating and adjusting to the wheelchair post-Hospital. But it was never mentioned other than that. 

I'm going to nitpick the 416 vows because he said he would never lie to her again not that he was sorry for lying to her. 

I think we are saying the same thing about her not talking to him. That's basically what I meant by her being hasty. I definitely agree with you on this point. 

I'm not saying she doesn't have anything to apologize for but it seemed somewhat one sided to me, I guess. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

24 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

How has the show shown that what Oliver did was wrong though? Thea flat out told him he did the right thing and all subsequent conversation from Diggle and Vixen was about his relationship with his son going forward (unless I forgot somerhing). The consequences he suffered was Felicity dumping him but now she seems to be apologizing for that and being too hasty? Now, I do think there was room for Felicity to apologize but I think they should have had Oliver apologize at the same time as well to make it less one sided. Oliver also did additional things to Felicity in service to that lie that he should apologize for. He absolutely should have apologized for leaving her while grievously injured to go visit his secret family. 

Well Oliver agreed in 415 that he should have told her about William, so I count that as him being shown to be in the wrong.  That remains a major admission for me.  

[wonderwall]

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I'm going to nitpick the 416 vows because he said he would never lie to her again not that he was sorry for lying to her. 

Isn't saying that he will never lie to her again his acknowledgement of saying he screwed up therefore he won't do it again? That's pretty much an apology right there imo.

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

IIRC, he said he was going back and forth to Central City in the Thea is dying episode and sorry it wasn't clear, I meant while she was recuperating and adjusting to the wheelchair post-Hospital. But it was never mentioned other than that. 

Yeah that makes more sense. Yeah I wish he would apologize for that... I doubt it though. It was a throwaway line that I don't even think the writers remember anymore. 

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I'm not saying she doesn't have anything to apologize for but it seemed somewhat one sided to me, I guess. 

While the explicit apologies were a bit one sided wrt William- I think Oliver tackled their main issue about trust. That it's not that he doesn't trust her, he just doesn't trust himself which I think is an issue that Felicity cared more about than just the lie (which was just a symptom of the larger issue). Him opening up to her like that and apologizing for that, I think was way more important. Would an apology about William have hurt? Not at all. It probably would've made an already strong scene stronger. But I can live without it because he instead apologized for the bigger issue.

Edited May 4, 2017 by wonderwall

[tennisgurl]

So I finally got to watch the episode, and yes, it was awesome, probably my favorite in quite awhile. It actually felt like I was watching Arrow again, a show that I can actually be excited to watch and enjoy, and not a show that just makes me roll my eyes and watch old episodes on Netflix.

Honestly, Felicity's apology didn't really bother me. I haven't ready any interviews about so I'm not sure how the writers meant it, but I took it as partially "I'm sorry I walked away from you so quickly" and partially "you almost died and are clearly going through some shit, so I'm going to try to make you feel better", and I'm alright with that. Honestly, I hate everything to do with Spawn, so if Felicity apologizing gets that whole plot line out of our collective system, I can live with it. Plus, I thought all the Oliver/Felicity conversations were so well done, I couldn't be annoyed.

I just thought all the Olicity scenes were top notch, from the sexy (that salmon ladder scene!) to the funny to the serious, it was everything I wanted and more! I will never understand why they bothered separating them, not just as a couple but even as friends and teammates, because Emily and Steven have such amazing chemistry, both in the sexy times, and just when they're talking, they really bring out the best in each others performances. I think my favorite was the scene where he tearfully admitted that Chase convinced him that he was some kind of serial killer, and Felicity told him that the whole idea of that is completely ridiculous and that he isn't a bad person. I'm going to take that as official confirmation that, yes, Chase was totally full of shit, and Oliver is a seriously messed up person who has gotten even more messed up after a week of torture, not that the show is retconing Oliver as some kind of serial killer. As Felicity said, even though Oliver is a really tough guy, everyone has a breaking point, and after a week of torture, he probably would have said, or even believed anything Chase said, and that didn't make it true. I'm also glad that this conversation showed that Oliver is still dealing with his Chase related trauma, even if he has gotten the team back together and has seemingly gotten better. Not that I'm happy that Oliver is still a mess, I'm happy that the show is still dealing with this traumatic event that the main character went through.

Dig and Lyla are back together too! Oh happy day! I had no desire to watch them break up, especially over something kind of stupid, and it looks like things are going well for them again. I really liked Lyla basically saying that Dig will back almost any morally ambiguous thing that Oliver does, and he should extend the same courtesy to her. I think its a solid response to some of the issues I had last week with Oliver and Dig sounded a bit sexist in their comments about Felicity and Lyla going dark. I get where they were both coming from better now, and Felicity and especially Lyla got to explain their actions in a really understandable way. I don't think Lyla is going to become Waller, but I do think she will continue to make morally questionable choices, and she's alright with that, and now I think he will be too.

I even thought the newbies were pretty good this week, being comic relief and backup to the main trio, which is how they work best. I even thought Curtis was pretty good this week, maybe because he was clearly rooting for Oliver and Felicity to get back together, a goal I can totally get behind. And, I still think Dinah is rather pointless, but as a character, I like her just fine. I really enjoyed her talk with Dig, it felt like they were really getting her character down beyond just Girl Power catch phrases. Also, considering all the complaining I've done lately about the way female characters are being treated over on The Flash, I'm just happy they're writing a competent female character who has a decent amount of agency.

The lowest part of the episode is the reveal of Spawn being the dumbest kid in the history of dumb kids. Seriously, William isn't even a toddler anymore, he's old enough looking to be an elementary school student, he should know better! Even a kid that age who wasn't kidnapped and had to basically join witness protection would know better than to talk to a weird stranger who knows your name, especially one who knows your real name! I don't wish bad things on children as a rule, I don't even automatically hate child characters, but oh my GOD do I hate this kid already.

Anyway, beside that, this was a really good episode, and a part of a series of good episodes they have had the last few weeks. Its like my show has actually returned to me!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I may not be a die-hard shipper, but I do believe Oliver and Felicity should be together, so last night was EVERYTHING!?????Made up for how sucky most of this season has been, that's fer damn sure.

[immortalfrieza]

1 hour ago, wonderwall said:

How was it a retcon when it was specifically stated in the episode that Chase tortured Oliver for 6 days and literally warped his mind into thinking he likes killing? It doesn't change a thing from previous seasons. 

I meant The List becoming a kill list, turning Oliver's entire crusade into nothing more than a murder spree when it wasn't, and using the Bratvia flashbacks to retroactively reinforce the idea is the retcon, which changes a really significant amount. Then Oliver STILL believes what Chase hammered into his head when he should have come to the realization that Chase was full of shit on his own, not have other characters repeatedly tell him that but Oliver brush it off. Those are the things I won't forgive the writers for unless they retcon the whole deal later.

[tennisgurl]

While I was mostly in love with the ship and character based threads in the episode, I also really enjoyed the directing and action pieces seen here as well. They had a few really interest camera angels and shots that I really liked and helped set the mood, like the shot where Dig saw the newbies through the keyhole bickering and talking about Dig/Lyla, or when the camera followed Oliver around while he had his gun out, and was sweeping the bunker for Chase. It added a lot of action to the more talky part of the episode. I also thought it was awesome seeing the whole sequence where Dig went down the elevator to get to Oliver and Felicity, and Dig holding onto both of them, and THEN Oliver pulling Felicity up with one hand, while injured!

[Hiveminder]

They could have so easily made William not a moron at the end. When Chase calls him William have the kid pause for a moment when he realizes this guy knows his real name then take off running. We all know Chase will catch him, and now William doesn't look like a dumbass who can't recognize stranger danger. 

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

Thanks for explaining, I'll pay closer attention on rewatch to see if it reads the same way to me.

It's a very personal impression :) And I didn't watch in a long time.

Edit: And a confession. When Oliver said that "Your math is always right", the first thing that came to my mind was "What a great throwback line in case someone happens to be late and counting days a bit further down the road". 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[SmallScreenDiva]

I can't recall, did Oliver tell Digg specifically about "liking" killing in Disbanded, or did he just tell him that he's realized he's a "monster" after a week of torture with Chase. 

[ComicFan777]

Oliver to Diggle in Disbanded:
"Chase showed me the truth about myself. You signed on for a crusade that turned out to be an outlet.  It was an excuse for me to murder people...I put on a hood, and I created a persona because, John, somewhere along the way, something in me broke.  Something is sick inside of me. The crusade--all of this--the foundation of it is a lie.  So I disbanded the team because I won't sit by and watch all of you participate in my murder spree. I am beyond redemption."

The only thing I can find about Oliver mentioning "monster" specifically was between Oliver and Anatoly.

Edited May 4, 2017 by ComicFan777

[statsgirl]

What I see is that Chase tortured Oliver to get him to say that he's a killer, but what do MG and WM see?

I missed the Beastmaster reference so clearly I'm going to have to go backand watch the episode again.

I did have a huge crush on Marc Sanger when I was younger though. And always a fan of Andre Norton who wrote the original book.

5 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

A person is not required to tell their current or future spouse everything about everything, including their past relationships and any children they may have if the spouse does not become directly involved themselves and/or it interferes with their relationship and living situation. If Oliver had been sleeping in another woman while he and Felicity were in a monogamous relationship and that resulted in William that would be cheating and thus actually involve Felicity, but the fact that this relationship with William's mother which resulted in William happened long before Felicity and Oliver even knew each other and didn't effect her life or Oliver and Felicity's relationship in any way until Damian Darhk came along made it none of her business.

I guess I just value privacy, integrity, honor, and honesty too much.

Are you saying that a person is not legally obligated to disclose a potentially huge financial liability when entering into a legal contract?  I'm not a  lawyer but a while ago @AyChihuahua ,who is a lawyer, pointed out that since the Queens had billions during the first 7+ years of William's life, if Samantha decided to go for back child support, it would be assessed at the rate that the Queens had during those years. Since Oliver didn't have any source of income last season, Felicity would have been on the hook for all that money.  Additionally, if anything had happened to Samantha, she would have been responsible for William as his stepmother.

Others have replied to whether Oliver should have told Felicity or not but I think valuing "integrity, honor, and honesty" would argue for Oliver being honest with Felicity before he marries her rather than continuing to keep a secret that huge.

The minute Samantha, the ONS who had lied to Oliver about William for the whole of William's life, gave Oliver an ultimatum that would have been thrown out in court in an instant, he should have realized she was not on his side and that he needed to protect his relationship with the woman who had always been honest with him and supported him instead.

[way2interested]

Just now, statsgirl said:

What I see is that Chase tortured Oliver to get him to say that he's a killer, but what do MG and WM see?

At least you could argue that WM sees it, since she co-wrote the episode where Felicity said literally that.

[leopardprint]

6 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

I guess I just value privacy, integrity, honor, and honesty too much.

Why are Samantha and Oliver deserving of these things and Felicity not? Because they have a child together? 

Was Samantha's requirement an "honorable" one? Did she show "integrity" by lobbing a ticking time bomb into Oliver's relationship with his fiancée and lying to him for ten years? She interfered in something that was none of her business. She gave no indication she would change her mind but Oliver could have refused and told her he wouldn't tell anyone but Felicity. I think THAT would have been the honorable choice. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by leopardprint

[tv echo]

When the air vent fans started spinning at the bottom of the elevator shaft, while Oliver was climbing up, with Felicity on his back, I thought of Galaxy Quest.

FYI, the SpoilerTV poll for this episode currently has an 88% "Awesome" vote...

POLL : What did you think of Arrow - Underneath?
http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/05/poll-what-did-you-think-of-arrow.html

Edited May 4, 2017 by tv echo

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, tv echo said:

When the air vent fans started spinning at the bottom of the elevator shaft, while Oliver was climbing up, with Felicity on his back, I thought of Galaxy Quest.

LOOL I thought the same thing, and thought to myself. "Why are these here?? Who does that??" LOL

[calliope1975]

I was, ahem, focused on other things, but were there any angles that would/should have shown Felicity's scars?

[tennisgurl]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOOL I thought the same thing, and thought to myself. "Why are these here?? Who does that??" LOL

THIS EPISODE WAS POORLY WRITTEN!!!!

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

THIS EPISODE WAS POORLY WRITTEN!!!!

LEGIT LOLing here.

I just watched that again recently, like a few weeks ago. What a delight. 

I feel like someone should have been shouting "I have ONE JOB. It's stupid, but I'm gonna do it. OKAY??"

[BkWurm1]

16 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I was, ahem, focused on other things, but were there any angles that would/should have shown Felicity's scars?

Not a really good one though at one point I thought I saw something but it could have just as easily been a shadow or a make up smudge.  What I was really curious about was what kind of new scars she has from being shot up in the limo.  She took more than one bullet in her torso, right?  Apparently none though that left a mark from the belly button down, lol.  Either that or she had a FANTASTIC plastic surgeon.  

Edited May 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

What I was really curious about was what kind of new scars she has from being shot up in the limo.  

Those were the scars I was mostly interested in, too. IIRC, she had several spinal/back surgeries, right? Oh well. Next time. And there had better be a next time, Show!

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, ComicFan777 said:

Oliver to Diggle in Disbanded:
"Chase showed me the truth about myself. You signed on for a crusade that turned out to be an outlet.  It was an excuse for me to murder people...I put on a hood, and I created a persona because, John, somewhere along the way, something in me broke.  Something is sick inside of me. The crusade--all of this--the foundation of it is a lie.  So I disbanded the team because I won't sit by and watch all of you participate in my murder spree. I am beyond redemption."

The only thing I can find about Oliver mentioning "monster" specifically was between Oliver and Anatoly.

Thanks, @ComicFan777. I was wondering if he'd told Digg specifically about "liking it," which he'd confessed to Felicity. I mean, it wouldn't have lessened the impact of his words if he'd already told Digg. But I appreciated Oliver essentially baring his soul to Felicity. Sharing what he thinks is his deepest, darkest secret. I also love that Felicity's response is typically her, she rejects it outright and offers him a very reasonable rationale about being tortured for a whole week and how easy it would have been to convince Oliver he was a tap-dancing flamingo (the newbies should set up a band with that name and move far, far away :P )

[insomniadreams88]

Upon my rewatch, I couldn't help but think, "wow, it looks like the ban on touching has finally really been lifted in the present." 

Also, as others have noted, that shot of the B team outside Diggle's apartment was a very good choice. And there was something about the three of them sitting on the couch together that had me thinking, "hey, this could really work." (I honestly could not tell you why that particular visual led to that, but it did.) I think they've figured out how to use the B team and I kind of like them all now? (But I still miss Rory. And Curtis needs to never go back to his annoying self.)

And I'm picturing Curtis trying to get everyone to join him in playing matchmaker with Oliver and Felicity after Felicity went off to see Oliver at the end there.