S05.E20: Underneath

[wonderwall]

Tonight Arrow resurrected the most beloved character of all and I hope she's here to stay...

Sally... WE'VE MISSED YOU. What a triumphant return :')

[BkWurm1]

 I'm loving the excellent beard rash.  

[wonderwall]

I'd say good job on the level of detail makeup department but we both know that they didn't do this lol

[Chaser]

Well damn. How many takes were there? Is there like an extended version out there? When's that getting released? Lol

[Angel12d]

I'm pleasantly surprised we got an "I love you" but I would've liked one from Oliver too. Because I'm fussy like that!

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Well damn. How many takes were there? Is there like an extended version out there? When's that getting released? Lol

I mean, they showed the love scene from several angles, including overhead, so they would've need to reset and restart a couple times, I think. :D

[Cthulhudrew]

Speaking of makeup- is it just me, or does Dinah/Tina have an unusually blatant amount of it this week? Are they trying to sex her up for a Diggle romance? She doesn't really need all that eyeshadow and lipstick, and it doesn't really seem to suit her character.

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I wasn't at all bothered by Felicity 'apologizing' for William, because I don't think she was apologizing in the way people are reading it. By saying she understood why he lied I took it to mean exactly that. She comprehended the reasons why he lied.  That doesn't have to mean she thinks it was the right decision now, and I think the talk of her realizing she was becoming like him actually pointed to it being the wrong decision. Becoming like Oliver in the sense of being willing to do anything to get Chase is a bad thing, so Felicity connecting that realization to understanding why Oliver lied to her tells me that she sees a little more clearly now how his mindset, developed after years of trauma, drives him to do things like that. And when she said she understood why he 'had to' lie about William, I didn't think she was using 'had to' in the sense of 'he had to do this because it was the right thing to do'. I heard 'he had to do this because his trauma compels him to act this way'. 

So, I don't think Felicity was saying anything close to, "You were totally right to keep your son a secret from me. We're coolsies now." I think she was saying, "What you did is still wrong, but my new understanding of what drove you to do that let's me see your actions in a different light and realize that your motivations were not what I thought they were. "

Yup, I think the point of the understanding isn't about the logistics of it, but getting why Oliver's psychological make up brought on by his horrid life experiences made him do so. 

I loved the Salmon ladder and the sexing and the afterglow, but I will proudly be a voice of discontent and still put 320 above this on my personal scale. This one didn't even have Felicity drugging Oliver, what's that about? :D I was also one of the people who raised an eyebrow and went hello at the flip, but I love how apparently Felicity totally got what it was about since she immediately pointed to the buttons Oliver wanted to undo. The handholding and playing with each other's finger afterwards was beyond cute.

I'm glad Dig came around in the end and that he played his crucial and rightful role in the OTA, because while I found his POV understandable last week, I thought he went too far this week. Gasp. You took Curtis' tech without his knowing and improved on it? For shame, Lyla! I mean, sure, it's not like TA in general and Felicity in particular does this stuff all the time.

The one good thing I have to say about the final scene is that after how the post-op scene ended, I feared we'd see Oliver coming to see the kid. Thank God he wasn't that stupid. Also, when did Chase manage to get a haircut?

And Curtis always, always works better when they tone him down. Case in point - Diggle family? Funny. The rant in the shat? Overdone.

[SmallScreenDiva]

How are they this adorable? And what the hell is SA doing? LOL!

[statsgirl]

"I would bet my considerable severance pay from Palmer Tech..."   Good to know how Felicity can afford to be unemployed all year.

Felicity's lipstick was just about perfect in the post coital scene.  I need that lipstick.

I don't understand why she said that Oliver needs to figure out who he is.  Of course he does, but why did she imply that he needed to in terms of their relationship.  I really liked SAs eyes filling with tears in that scene though.

William really is a future Darwin Award winner isn't he?

[lemotomato]

4 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Their love scene had their theme music. *Cries a little*

I've missed it so much. Man, I'm so thirsty for these two today.

It's been so long ::also cries:: 

[ohjoy]

36 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I loved the Salmon ladder and the sexing and the afterglow, but I will proudly be a voice of discontent and still put 320 above this on my personal scale. This one didn't even have Felicity drugging Oliver, what's that about? :D

NGL, Felicity drugging Oliver is my absolute favorite moment of 320. I don't know what that says about me.

She didn't drug him this time, but this ep does continue the theme of scenes in which Oliver involuntarily loses consciousness "after" sleeping with Felicity, so I'll allow it. :-)

[BkWurm1]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

I don't understand why she said that Oliver needs to figure out who he is.  Of course he does, but why did she imply that he needed to in terms of their relationship.  I really liked SAs eyes filling with tears in that scene though.

 

I think it's because he said earlier he wasn't really the man she thinks he is or the man she fell in love with.  But she does know who he is and who she fell in love with, but he needs to beleive and know or he's never going to really be at peace.  Or be able to give that final piece to their relationship that she needs.  He said he didn't back her up or seem to trust her because he didn't trust himself.  So ergo...

Edited May 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[immortalfrieza]

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

There were people who honestly thought that Oliver loved to kill after episode 17 aired and were disgusted.... 

I wonder what they think after this episode? LOL

For me Felicity's whole "flamingo" statement was awesome but it doesn't change much. This show still retconned the list into a kill list and used the Bratvia flashbacks, while still having Oliver believe Chase's lie after all this time, so unless they retcon Oliver's attitude about killing back to how it actually was during the show before this season I'm not going to be forgiving the writers for that still.

Quote

Lyla: I'm fine, you're the one who seems to have a problem with how I'm running ARGUS, which is particularly interesting to me since neither one of us has a job with the conventional definition of morality
Diggle: What's that supposed to mean?
Lyla:You're upset because Argus is locking people up without due process when you and Oliver and your team of masked recruits has been playing judge and jury for years now.

That makes two shows in one week which has a character say something I wanted them to say. What Lyla said was so appropriate I started clapping immediately after she said it and started writing it down just so I could put it here. Calling a character out on their own hypocrisy is something I always love to see and I especially love it when work states what I and forums like this were saying previously, it almost feels like writers actually read these forums once in a while.

I like that Felicity finally apologized and said that she understood why Oliver lied to her about William. Unfortunately, yet again the reasons she claims Oliver had that she understood still failed to so much as mention the other, much more significant reasons why he didn't tell her. Namely that William's mother effectively blackmailed him into promising not to tell anyone about William (which Oliver was too broken of a man and too unwilling to put William through the ugly legal battle to contest it in court like he could have) and that Oliver possessed the integrity to actually keep that promise and thus he couldn't. Oh, and the fact that it wasn't anyone's business but Oliver, the mother, and William himself that Oliver had a son regardless of their relationship with Oliver. Felicity also didn't apologize for dumping Oliver for what amounts to her colossal inability to get over herself and look at it from Oliver's situation and point of view.

Oh, and Team Arrow should have had one of them keep an eye on William the moment this whole debacle with Prometheus started, not to mention after Chase went on the run, in fact it would have been a good trap for Team Arrow to set for Chase, but that's standard stupidity for this show so I'm pretty numb to it.

Edited May 4, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[quarks]

An episode about getting trapped while realizing your abs still look great. We should all be so fortunate when trapped underground in major secret bunkers. 

Also, extremely questionable science. But on the bright side, also the first Arrowverse episode of the week that doesn't have me shrieking about the sets. It's the small things.

Good things:

1. Everyone's abs, which reminded me that it's been awhile since I've gone to the gym. Wait. Was I calling this a good point? On second thought, let's call this a mixed point.

2. Yay, the salmon ladder is back! WE HAVE MISSED YOU, SALMON LADDER!  NEVER LEAVE US AGAIN.  I mean, we're all aware that Barry's cosmic treadmill has been lonely this season, and I'm not against you two trying to hook up for some comfort, but we have needs too, salmon ladder!

3. That elevator shaft scene. "You have to let me go!" "I know you hate it when I don't listen to you!" I probably shouldn't have laughed, but I laughed.  Quite a step forward from a certain earlier time when they were in an elevator shaft.

4. Dinah is definitely growing on me - between her ability to be a sympathetic ear, and her ability to get to the point, unlike Curtis and Rene, and the deadpan comments.

5. Lyla calling Diggle and Team Arrow out on their hypocrisy. Lyla, you are now my hero. I forgive you the whole completely failing to tell your husband and his vigilante team where you moved the hacker last episode.

6. Yay for finally getting canon script confirmation about how, exactly, Felicity continues to pay for that fabulous wardrobe!

7. I don't expect anyone in this forum to agree with me, but I'd argue that the top Oliver/Felicity scene was his confession about killing.

8. Then again, all but one of their scenes were good tonight - between the "I told you so, I told you so, I told you so,"; the "Are you still Felicity Smoak?" "Yeah." "Your math is always right," and ....

9. Tap dancing flamingos. Berlanti, you gave us talking gorillas and dinosaurs on your other shows. Let's talk about adding flamingos to this one. 

Questionable things:

1. Felicity, we know you were slightly or very drunk, but that was still not the appropriate clothing to wear for a workout on the salmon ladder. Take that shirt off immediately - oh. Never mind then!

2. Arrow's 8 PM timeslot. I think we all know what Oliver was initially thinking when he spun Felicity around like that, until he remembered just when the footage of this would air.

3. It was inevitable, I suppose, that a WB show would end up quoting WB cartoons, but Looney Tunes at that particular moment, Curtis? Seriously?  The Death Star joke was much better.

4. Small thing, but since the ramp up to the platform was nowhere to be seen, how was Felicity getting up and down from it in her wheelchair?

5. Stealing a T-sphere, Lyla? Really? And to think I just called you my hero.

6. That seems to be a rather obvious place to leave the secret button that opens up the secret elevator to the Arrow Cave. No wonder villains keep wandering into the place. 

7. Team Arrow has at least two motorcycles, right? Oliver's and Dinah's? So why was there only one motorcycle there? Was that Oliver's backup motorcycle? (I may very well have missed something in the script here.) 

8. Though, on that note: Felicity, Oliver, you're trapped underground and will be running out of air eventually. Is this really the best time to start running a combustion engine which will increase the methane in the area and....yeah, I should probably stop trying to think about this.

9. Although I am not going to stop thinking about how, exactly, Oliver, Felicity and Cisco managed to install giant fans and tubes full of methane without anyone in Star City noticing. I realize that the residents of Star City are just a touch busy with criminals, vigilantes and regular May attacks, but still. You'd think all that would make them more observant about this, not less. 

10. I completely understand why all the defense attorneys are demanding mistrials (new trials, surely? isn't someone writing for this show an attorney? let us move on) but honestly, I feel all of them and the press are being a bit harsh. I mean, yes, Chase turned out to be a serial killer, but in his defense, not once was he kidnapped, killed, unaware that Malcolm Merlyn had bribed the jury, subject to blackmail from recovering alcholic attorneys or off on vacation when the city was attacked, putting him well ahead of every single other Star City DA we have seen on this show yet. Maybe you should just overlook the flaws under the circumstances, defense attorneys!

Bad things:

1. Felicity's rundown of possible Chase targets, noting that there aren't any left, like, a) Felicity, just because Thea left the show for a bit doesn't mean that Chase can't track her down and hurt her, b) you kinda failed to mention your own mother, c) Chase could also be targeting random people again, so, yes, Oliver has a right to be a little concerned here. I realize that this was Arrow's clumsy way of trying to reintroduce William to the narrative before Oliver and Felicity started talking about him, but it was a bit too clumsy.

2. Speaking of which, reintroducing William to the narrative. This was an unpopular plot line last season for a reason, Arrow.

3. As others have said, surely, after last season's kidnapping, Samantha would have told William to be more wary of strangers? For that matter, surely William would have been more wary of strangers without needing to be told about it?

3. You'd think, given Diggle's height, that the Diggles would invest in a larger couch. You would also think, given that Lyla is presumably earning a decent salary at this point, that they would not be forced to use a time travelling couch. Berlanti, we all know that you have no money, but maybe consider investing in more throws to put over the couch so that I don't have thoughts like this. 

(On the bright side, we were spared a third night of seeing that same blue car in the background so I should be grateful for small prop failures, I guess.)

4. I know Arrow loves to try to parallel their flashback and current day scenes, but this can often lead to forced moments in the flashbacks or present day, as here: Felicity's flashback apology. Their previous scene left them in a place that explained Felicity's point of view, explained why Oliver wasn't sure where they stood, and explained why they were both moving onto other people for reasons beyond "whoops, as it turns out, Arrow ISN'T ending at the end of season 3 or 4 after all, our bad for the timing, and look, this is television so they can't get back together until at least May" which as reasons go, was really lacking something.  The afterglow scene solved that, fitting smoothly into the first part of the season. The flashback apology, not so much.

I'm aware that Arrow wanted to address the long standing criticism from last season - that Felicity walked out on Oliver after the William reveal without talking to him, just when he was saying what he thought (and frankly, I hoped) would be a permanent goodbye to his son, something that I thought was out of character and many other viewers thought was wrong of her - and, given the fan outrage/criticism of that choice, wanted to have Felicity apologize for not talking. And I have no problem with having her apologize for walking away without talking to Oliver. But, as so often, this is something that would have worked with just a touch of tweaking: instead of having the flashback apology be a day later, have Felicity apologize during the afterglow scene, with this:

Oliver: We never talked about it.

Felicity: I know, and I'm sorry for not talking. But you don't trust me....[rest of her dialogue.]

That gets the apology into the flashback, but allows the flashback stuff to end on the two key issues: Felicity feels that Oliver doesn't trust her, and Oliver isn't ready to talk to her and won't be until the present day.

That in turn would have given a few more seconds to explain the Team Arrow gobblygook, and let the second, present day apology stand on its own.

4. Arrow, there are ways to introduce Chekhov's Guns into a story, and then there's putting in a methane gas tube in a secret underground lair that anyone, including various assassins, metahumans and Damien Darhk can and have just waltzed into just so you can later have it go boom, and then try to explain this by saying its part of a self-destruct thing that we have never heard of before, because my initial thought is not, as you were doubtless hoping, huh, what an interesting place to put a methane gas tube or even, geesh, I hope that Oliver and Felicity survive this dangerous gas but rather, WHY IS THAT TUBE THERE, which leads me to ....

And now, Cisco!

Oh, Cisco. For three seasons now we have watched your superhero journey on not one, not two, not three, not even four, but five separate shows (I'm totally counting Vixen). We had hopes. You are funny. You are an engineer. You have superpowers. You wouldn't fail us.

And then, this episode:

1. Number of ways Cisco fails as a superhero despite not even appearing in this episode: 1) Just one, but it's a biggie: So, Oliver and Felicity are trapped and have only moments to escape. Does the Arrowverse's teleporter show up and rescue them from the death trap that he created? No, no he does not.  Stop hanging out with Barry, Cisco. It's doing you no good.

2. Number of ways Cisco fails as a superhero lair designer despite not even appearing in this episode: I'm not even sure where to begin, but let's try: 1) creating an underground lair that traps its heroes inside, while still allowing pretty much anyone else to just walk in, including, not at random, assassins, Malcolm Merlyn, Damien Darhk, and superheroes from other earths, like, seriously, Cisco, 2) putting a methane tube in a lair where people regularly shoot sharp objects that can penetrate the tube, like, Cisco, what part of the Arrow part of Team Arrow were you missing? It's just LUCKY that Team Arrow didn't asphixiate before this 3) failing to include automatic emergency lights (though I liked the emergency flashlights that Oliver and Felicity eventually found, 4) completely failing to account for a potential EMP attack or attack via metahumans capable of eliminating Team Arrow's power source, 5) did I mention the methane tube? I think I needed to mention the methane tube.

On the other hand, Cisco did create a nice romantic place for bunker sex, and carefully placed a methane tube in the lair in just the right spot to endanger our heroes and, with their blood loss, and injuries, get them to talk to each other. So I suppose we must give him credit for that.

[BkWurm1]

So some further thoughts after another rewatch of the episode (on top of MULTIPLE rewatches of so many great scenes)

Oliver’s plan didn’t work.  Felicity’s plan didn’t work.  Yes, they needed help from the team, but they only stayed alive long enough to get their help because they worked the plan together.  Oliver found the steam tunnel, but Felicity figured out how to get it open.  Oliver had to carry her but when he collapsed, she was there to jab him with the needle.  It was a more subtle lesson than I expected but still there, IMO. 

Hee!  “Hang onto me tight. [Cue choking noise] Not that tight! Not that tight!”  Felicity must have been working on her upper body strength since her Salmon ladder lesson. Lol.  

Now a nit pick on plot.

I’m confused how the generators in the bunker were coming on line.  I understand that Cisco made them tamper proof so the team couldn't shut them down and automated to reboot, (apparently 5-6 hours later?) but how would they get the power to reboot if all their circuits that would convey the power are shorted by the EMP?   

Also, does this mean the generators blew up the bunker since they had to turn off the ventilation fans?  There's no shot of it in the promo and they are thanking Lyla for letting them hang at Argus (and it seemed separate from waiting to see how Oliver was)  And yet, if they blew up another lair, I think that would have been made explicit.  So yeah, confused. 

I guess we're to assume they turned them back on and all was good, but I guess that also means that every second that any one of them were down underground, they were at risk of blowing up if the fans didn't work.  Otherwise Oliver could have just hung tight when the fan kicked in instead of jumping.  I mean ten minutes later and they could be back with another, longer rope, but if they were still afraid of the place blowing, they wouldn't risk it.  Yes, I've entered "too much thought being put into it" territory, lol.  

That stunt in the shaft though, it’s still effective after multiple viewings.  So intense. I really like that the stunts in this episode were a departure from the fighting.  It made the action scenes fresh. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Hee!  “Hang onto me tight. [Cue choking noise] Not that tight! Not that tight!”  Felicity must have been working on her upper body strength since her Salmon ladder lesson. Lol.  

Ha! I didn't even take notice of that because I was too hung up on Oliver's comment being a callback to their original elevator shaft escapade.

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 Also, does this mean the generators blew up the bunker since they had to turn off the ventilation fans?  There's no shot of it in the promo and they are thanking Lyla for letting them hang at Argus (and it seemed separate from waiting to see how Oliver was)  And yet, if they blew up another lair, I think that would have been made explicit.  So yeah, confused. 

I think they were helping Lyla for giving them a safe place where Oliver and Felicity could get help.

And yes on the fresh stunts. My favorite usually are of this variety. Like Oliver climbing that wall in season 1, or flipping Felicity over the rail in season 2.

[Belinea]

I enjoyed this episode. Frankly some parts I could have lived without but generally I enjoyed it. What I don't enjoy is people being super bitter about 1 episode that they consider 'horrible' because of the 'emotions'. Why is it such a bad thing if characters have feelings? I guess it is just not the right kind of emotion. I mean, if this one episode out of 23 is a dealbreaker for you, then I don't understand what it is you want.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Belinea

[lemotomato]

As if I didn't already love the episode, it brought back @quarks to us! Welcome back, we missed you! :D

[bijoux]

Some additional points after rewatching that scene without the background music. Oliver actually says thank you after Felicity takes off her shirt because apparently he can do the Salmon ladder, but not buttons after polishing off two bottles of wine with her. Hee. And, yup, there's him whispering her name as he pauses the kiss.

[BkWurm1]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

4. I know Arrow loves to try to parallel their flashback and current day scenes, but this can often lead to forced moments in the flashbacks or present day, as here: Felicity's flashback apology. Their previous scene left them in a place that explained Felicity's point of view, explained why Oliver wasn't sure where they stood, and explained why they were both moving onto other people for reasons beyond "whoops, as it turns out, Arrow ISN'T ending at the end of season 3 or 4 after all, our bad for the timing, and look, this is television so they can't get back together until at least May" which as reasons go, was really lacking something.  The afterglow scene solved that, fitting smoothly into the first part of the season. The flashback apology, not so much.

I'm aware that Arrow wanted to address the long standing criticism from last season - that Felicity walked out on Oliver after the William reveal without talking to him, just when he was saying what he thought (and frankly, I hoped) would be a permanent goodbye to his son, something that I thought was out of character and many other viewers thought was wrong of her - and, given the fan outrage/criticism of that choice, wanted to have Felicity apologize for not talking. And I have no problem with having her apologize for walking away without talking to Oliver. But, as so often, this is something that would have worked with just a touch of tweaking: instead of having the flashback apology be a day later, have Felicity apologize during the afterglow scene, with this:

Oliver: We never talked about it.

Felicity: I know, and I'm sorry for not talking. But you don't trust me....[rest of her dialogue.]

That gets the apology into the flashback, but allows the flashback stuff to end on the two key issues: Felicity feels that Oliver doesn't trust her, and Oliver isn't ready to talk to her and won't be until the present day.

That in turn would have given a few more seconds to explain the Team Arrow gobblygook, and let the second, present day apology stand on its own.

Yeah, I've been trying to make Felicity's flashback apology make sense in light of her turning to Billy  and I think I have?  

 I was confused at first about what "talk" she was referring to in the flashback apology.  She says she wasn’t saying never but that she wasn’t ready yet. I'm fairly sure she was referring to talking about their relationship problems.  After sex Felicity said they still had the same problems and Oliver said it was because they never talked about them so Oliver thinks Talk=Solve.  But Felicity then said even if there wasn't a William, they still wouldn't be together and as long as he didn’t trust her and/or she didn’t understand why he didn’t trust anyone, nothing would change.  

So the question for me hanging in the air ends up being was the talk supposed to be them working on their issues and thus their relationship like I believe Oliver would think, or was Felicity offering a post-mortem of their relationship to give Oliver closure since she didn't see this impasse between them changing? Felicity is in tears when she says she's not ready to talk about it.  She might have been wanting to give Oliver what he needs but also find the topic too sensitive to pick apart. Right now.

It's the only angle I can think of that would explain why instead of just waiting she would try to move on.  Because otherwise that's the implication, that she thinks probably somewhere down the road they could talk through their problems.  Only just the day before she pretty much said talking can't help.  Now 11 months later talking did help but the talk they needed wasn't about their past but new info that came to light about how Oliver viewed himself and why he wasn't able to fully give her the kind of trust she needed and deserved. 

So yeah, I think Felicity was offering one thing and Oliver was thinking she meant something else, thus Billy and his confusion.  I mean, she said in 505 that she was NOT trying to keep the door open for them.  Unless her future offer to talk about their break up was just closure for Oliver, her seeing Billy makes zero sense.  So that's my head canon.  

One thing I am certain about is that when Oliver said he wasn't going anywhere, that was exactly what it sounded like.  That she would be his always.  No matter what.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I enjoyed the episode so, so much. I was biting my nails in the scene where the team rescued Oliver and Felicity..I mean I knew they were going to be okay in the end but it was written and acted so well I was at the edge of my seat.

The flashbacks were perfect..the actors have so much chemistry you have to write for them..it's a strength..

The scene where Oliver apologized and confessed What Chase made him admit was my favorite..it was very emotional and SA was really, really good. He made me feel for Oliver. I loved it.

I'm also happy Dig and Lyla worked things out..I was worried for a sec there..lol

The last scene with Felicity comparing Helix and Oliver lying about William was such a disappointment. It's been a year and the writers are still trying to convince me I watched that sloppy storyline wrong and what Oliver did was understandable. They should have written their break up in a way that made sense because I don't suffer from shot term memory or I change my mind because people tell me to. 

[foreverevolving]

Haven't watched an episode since 5x05 or 10 I think... can't really remember.
I heard a bottle episode with Oliver and Felicity and I figured I owed myself to watch, how bad can TPTB fuck this up?

Well it was all great, until that last minute, where I had to pause the episode because it was either that or throw my computer out the widow from rage. Amazing how shitty writing can fuck up even the most amazing chemistry and characters, unbelievable. Somehow, Oiiver is never to blame, EVER!!! GRRRR! so annoying, and in the name of that I think they may have officially killed Felicity. I did not reconize the Felicity I saw in the last minute, that is not the character I instantly found a kinship, admiration and role model of sorts for several years. The Felicity I know is made of awesome and she will never say those things!! ;-(

That being said: sex scene was HOT!!!!!! as fuck (pun intended)- Oliver roughly turning Felicity, Daamn brother! work it!! Someone turn on the AC!. Stephen and Emily continue to have screen burning chemistry, TPTB just need to let them be.. no fucking idiotic drama where felicity says "i'm sorry" for walking away on Oliver or understanding why he lied to her about William!!!- because I will never understand; I can't decide if I wanna send flowers or a stink bomb to whomever wrote this episode.

 

Kept waiting for Oliver to say "never" when Felicity kept telling him to let go. that elevator shaft scene was made of awesome.

Side note: I really enjoyed Dinah!! (Imagine that!) had she been the Black Canary straight after Sara I would have been a happy camper. 

Weird as it may be for the rest of you (since I know many dislike Rena), I enjoyed mini OTA dynamic (much more than last year, than again last year mini OTA had Laurel - need I say more?) with uncle and auntie Diggle as the babysitters, while mommy and daddy are busy fighting for their lives. I find them funny enough, there's a good dynamic between the three of them. If the show gets better again, I'm cool with all three sticking around.  

So where exactly it Thea?

 

Still not enough to make me comeback and watch full time, though I may catch the last few episodes of the season just for the hack of it (though i'll pass on the Laurel episode, I had enough of her turning up on the LoT finale -_-, hopefully this season is the last of any version of her).

Edited May 4, 2017 by foreverevolving

[BkWurm1]

27 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Some additional points after rewatching that scene without the background music. Oliver actually says thank you after Felicity takes off her shirt because apparently he can do the Salmon ladder, but not buttons after polishing off two bottles of wine with her. Hee. And, yup, there's him whispering her name as he pauses the kiss.

That pause is where my heart just broke.  In a good way.  They were being so sexy and cute and then he just looks at her with no walls up, his love for her pouring out as he stops to memorize the moment, cherishing every second. And Felicity looks back at him as if she needs to devour him.  

So, so, good.   

Edited May 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[bijoux]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

And Felicity looks back at him as if she needs to devour him.  

And she does.

Source

[lemotomato]

She lost her hair tie and her glasses. How much fun were they having even before the salmon ladder?

[bijoux]

Two empty bottles of wine. I'd say plenty of fun.

[BkWurm1]

14 minutes ago, foreverevolving said:

Still not enough to make me comeback and watch full time, though I may catch the last few episodes of the season just for the hack of it (though i'll pass on the Laurel episode, I had enough of her turning up on the LoT finale -_-, hopefully this season is the last of any version of her)

You didn't hear?  KC is back as BS for at least 13 episodes.  She was made a season regular.  No I'm not kidding.  

[BkWurm1]

Some more thoughts on that final Olicity scene.   

I’m fine with any apology about her actions with Helix.  I could always see both sides so if she does too, that’s fine.  And when she turned to the topic of William, she starts out really strong.  It’s there in the inflection of her voice.  When she says she “I get it now,” it’s clear that it’s understanding him that she’s talking about, not that she’s agreeing with him. 

She says, “I understand why you lied to me about William, why you had to.” The line still rings true for it to be about understanding.  Like others said, it's that HE had to (or thought he did).  Then we get to the final part, and I admit,  I was still struggling to make that work.   

Felicity's line is:   

“I get it, and for the extent that I judged you—and I did judge you - I’m sorry.” 

It was her apologizing for judging him that seemed to imply agreement in his choice which derailed my interpretation of the earlier bits, but in watching the scene again, I noticed how they make that line flow almost right into this bit:

  “You know, you said you didn’t know what kind of person you are.  I think you should figure that out.”

I think they are connected.  It's part of the same thought.  I think what’s going through Felicity’s mind is that for better or worse, Oliver thought he was honor bound not to tell her about William and as stupid as that was, him trying to be honorable was another bit of proof that Oliver is no monster. 

And I think the apology for judging him was because how he’s judged himself was so much worse than what she can bear for him to think about himself and right now it kills her to have added to that. (No matter how justly) 

I think that’s part of her new understanding of him. It’s not like she didn’t know before how hard on himself he was, but after flirting with the “whatever it takes” mentality and how easy it is to get caught up in that and how that feeling erodes the boundaries between good and bad inside of you and how scared Oliver is of not being able to tell them apart, I think she now might feel more protective of his impulses to do the right thing even if he totally messed up and got the right thing wrong.  

[foreverevolving]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

You didn't hear?  KC is back as BS for at least 13 episodes.  She was made a season regular.  No I'm not kidding.  

No, no I didn't. I stopped following spoilers and things related to the show when I decided to drop it. Haven't even really kept up with my subscribed fanfics (i'm way behind on a few of them).

I believe the 10th Doctor said it best "I don't like it"

I guess my time with Arrow is really and truly over after this season, I refuse to give the time for a show that fucks around with my OTP and bring back its worst actress. Man, for about an hour I had hope that maybe the show I used to love was coming back.. this time last year, who'd have thunk the only DC-CW i'd actually wanna watch will be LoT!?!

Edited May 4, 2017 by foreverevolving

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

 

I wasn't at all bothered by Felicity 'apologizing' for William, because I don't think she was apologizing in the way people are reading it. By saying she understood why he lied I took it to mean exactly that. She comprehended the reasons why he lied.  That doesn't have to mean she thinks it was the right decision now, and I think the talk of her realizing she was becoming like him actually pointed to it being the wrong decision. Becoming like Oliver in the sense of being willing to do anything to get Chase is a bad thing, so Felicity connecting that realization to understanding why Oliver lied to her tells me that she sees a little more clearly now how his mindset, developed after years of trauma, drives him to do things like that. And when she said she understood why he 'had to' lie about William, I didn't think she was using 'had to' in the sense of 'he had to do this because it was the right thing to do'. I heard 'he had to do this because his trauma compels him to act this way'. 

So, I don't think Felicity was saying anything close to, "You were totally right to keep your son a secret from me. We're coolsies now." I think she was saying, "What you did is still wrong, but my new understanding of what drove you to do that let's me see your actions in a different light and realize that your motivations were not what I thought they were. "

But what is the reason that she understands? The premise for this reasoning to work is that Oliver was keeping William a secret from Felicity to keep him safe which is one of the different explanations they gave last year and one I didn't and still don't find convincing.

(In the way I understood it) Felicity said she was blinded by the need to catch Chase after he killed Billy and she ended up working with Helix so she can relate to what Oliver did to keep William safe even if she was wrong to work with Helix and he was wrong to lie. But that doesn't work for me because they messed up that storyline last year. First he lied to Felicity because Samantha told him to (for some reason that was never explained), then it seems he did it to keep him safe (from his conversation with Thea) but it doesn't work since at that point he knew MM knew about his kid and told Oliver to his face he was going to make him regret what he did to him.

I can picture a scenario where the villain tells Oliver (to torture him, like Chase has been doing) that if he wants his kid to be safe he has to keep him a secret and can't have a relationship with him. This way I could say I understand that Oliver was doing what he thought was right to keep his kid safe even if telling the team instead of trusting a villain to keep his promise would have kept the kid safer in the end.

I think when they wrote the BMD to break Oliver and Felicity up they didn't think it through and it didn't make a lot of sense. They have been trying to explain it for a year and this was another attempt but what they are telling me now still doesn't match what they showed me last year. I can't say Oliver thought he was doing everything he could to keep William safe because MM told him he knew and threatened him.

[bijoux]

I'm weak and watched the episode again already, but I just enjoyed it so much the first time around.

I didn't notice the episode title being repeated ad nauseum as this show is want to do, but there are three references to number 11 that I spotted. It's the number of arrows Oliver shot at the door, the number of times Felicity told him "I told you so", and how many months ago the flashbacks took place. Which was sometime in June presumably, so possibly not even a full month since Felicity and Oliver were left standing alone in the bunker last year. It really took little time for them to slip is what I'm saying. :D

Then there was Oliver and Felicity's well being and safety obviously being the first things on his mind. Are you ok?, were the first words to come out of his mouth after the initial explosion, then the second one, and finally when he came to after blacking out. And he mentioned not having enough bandwidth to train new recruits when Felicity brought the idea up. This episode is seriously the epitome of Oliver's enchantment with Felicity, it hit everything. His concern and respect for her,  the way he takes in what she's saying, how she brightens up his world.

I also spotted other instances of Curtis being likeable. His Oliver impression, and You enjoy that in the flashbacks. To my mind Felicity is the you, and Oliver the that in that sentence. Plus, his attempt at ooohing when Oliver wanted to see Felicity after the surgery, but even more Dig's reaction to it. Man, I've been doing this shipping thing for years. You really need to develop more chill about it.

A few small things. What did Felicity try to do when Oliver told her her idea with the bike engine was smart? I'd also like to know who's in charge of getting office supplies for the bunker. They're slacking off if that's all the duct tape they have.

[BkWurm1]

I wonder what is special about the number 11.  Great observation.

[BkWurm1]

16 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

But what is the reason that she understands? The premise for this reasoning to work is that Oliver was keeping William a secret from Felicity to keep him safe which is one of the different explanations they gave last year and one I didn't and still don't find convincing.

(In the way I understood it) Felicity said she was blinded by the need to catch Chase after he killed Billy and she ended up working with Helix so she can relate to what Oliver did to keep William safe even if she was wrong to work with Helix and he was wrong to lie. But that doesn't work for me because they messed up that storyline last year. First he lied to Felicity because Samantha told him to (for some reason that was never explained), then it seems he did it to keep him safe (from his conversation with Thea) but it doesn't work since at that point he knew MM knew about his kid and told Oliver to his face he was going to make him regret what he did to him.

I can picture a scenario where the villain tells Oliver (to torture him, like Chase has been doing) that if he wants his kid to be safe he has to keep him a secret and can't have a relationship with him. This way I could say I understand that Oliver was doing what he thought was right to keep his kid safe even if telling the team instead of trusting a villain to keep his promise would have kept the kid safer in the end.

I think when they wrote the BMD to break Oliver and Felicity up they didn't think it through and it didn't make a lot of sense. They have been trying to explain it for a year and this was another attempt but what they are telling me now still doesn't match what they showed me last year. I can't say Oliver thought he was doing everything he could to keep William safe because MM told him he knew and threatened him.

I didn't get the impression that Felicity was linking the whatever it takes mindset to Oliver and the kid, just that she got a taste of how the darkness can affect you. Her apology implied agreeing that doing whatever it takes was wrong, so I didn't get the impression that Felicity was at all hinting that Oliver was right in doing whatever it takes to protect him.  I think she brought up Helix to explain getting a small feel for how he lived.   I don't think the episode was selling any specific reason why Oliver was "right" to hid the kid. Or even that he was right.  Just that she understood now.   Whatever she understood now was left to the audience.

[Mellowyellow]

32 minutes ago, bijoux said:

This episode is seriously the epitome of Oliver's enchantment with Felicity, it hit everything. His concern and respect for her,  the way he takes in what she's saying, how she brightens up his world.

 

Thank you for this comment! I've been trying to describe how I feel about Oliver’s heart eyes and how SA plays him in regards to Felicity, I just couldn't think of the word!

Enchantment is a perfect way to describe it. 

What's beautiful is we saw it in the flashbacks, he was so distant after 505 and then it was back again at the end of 520 when she went to see him. And all that hand holding.

*runs off to have more hysterics*

[Midnight Lullaby]

27 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I didn't get the impression that Felicity was linking the whatever it takes mindset to Oliver and the kid, just that she got a taste of how the darkness can affect you. Her apology implied agreeing that doing whatever it takes was wrong, so I didn't get the impression that Felicity was at all hinting that Oliver was right in doing whatever it takes to protect him.  I think she brought up Helix to explain getting a small feel for how he lived.   I don't think the episode was selling any specific reason why Oliver was "right" to hid the kid. Or even that he was right.  Just that she understood now.   Whatever she understood now was left to the audience.

But I said the same thing about the show not selling what Oliver did as "right".

 

56 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

 

(In the way I understood it) Felicity said she was blinded by the need to catch Chase after he killed Billy and she ended up working with Helix so she can relate to what Oliver did to keep William safe even if she was wrong to work with Helix and he was wrong to lie.

 

I said from my POV I think she was saying she was wrong to work with Helix and he was wrong to lie but her experience made him understand him more..why he acted the way he did.

She said she was being an hypocrite, she was starting to become like him because after she lost Billy she was willing to do whatever it takes..break any rule to get Chase..she said that gave her the tiniest taste of what he has experienced and then she says "I get it now. I understand why you lied..." so yeah I think she was linking Helix and the BMD as examples or wrong behavior for a good reason. The show doesn't make her spell out the reason he lied that she understood in this episode but last year they said he did it to keep him safe. They abandoned "because Samantha said it" along the way. Or what other reason did they give?

What I said is I can buy that she can understand him being willing to do wrong things for what he thinks is the right thing to do but while Felicity's misguided actions make sense if the goal is to catch Chase, Oliver's misguided actions don't make sense if the goal was to keep William safe. I think the writers are still paying not having written a story that made sense to break them up.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[bijoux]

The pictures aren't the best quality, but the point is pretty clear.

[Happy Harpy]

I watched my first episode this season and my first thought was: Those people really deserve their nickname of The Idiots In Charge.

You don't waste a chemistry like the one that exists between SA and EBR for the sake of it. You don't artificially destroy a couple that carries your show whereas said couple is highly interesting and deeply engaging when together. You don't write shitty cliché drama when you're able to write mature character development, if only out of respect for your audience. 

About the episode in itself, I'm with the majority. I loved it, Oliver/Felicity still have "it", and I rolled my eyes at everything William. I winced at the mention of "JJ" (?) not "Sara".

Thea was gone (not surprised) Lance still here (surprised). Was Lyla's history retconned, too? She seemed different. The future new BC (I guess since she's "Dinah"?) has tons of chemistry and yes, including sexual chemistry, with Diggle. Yowza. The forced "friendship" scenes with Because Comics seem all the more pathetic in retrospect. Is that the meta reason why Lyla and John have issues ? Imagine, Green Arrow/Felicity and Diggle/Black Canary as endgame...oh, LOL. I've been so naughty, I deserve this!

I still resent as a personal insult that Oliver and Whatsername's moronic spawn bears the same name as Mulder and Scully's son.

Spoiler

Of course, I know that DeadWeight is back soon so I'm not back as a regular viewer.

If they redo an episode like this one, or about Diggle/Felicity/Oliver, I'll watch it.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[bijoux]

@Happy Harpy, how does Lyla seem different to you? I found that comment interesting. She honestly seems consistent to me, except for maybe giving Dig that file that was not necessary for him to see.

[Happy Harpy]

Just now, bijoux said:

@Happy Harpy, how does Lyla seem different to you? I found that comment interesting. She honestly seems consistent to me, except for maybe giving Dig that file that was not necessary for him to see.

I found her distant, cold and detached. Very Waller-esque in her demeanor. I always saw an emotional/passionate spark in Lyla, even at her most cynical. Here, I felt she had lost that spark.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

 

I like that Felicity finally apologized and said that she understood why Oliver lied to her about William. Unfortunately, yet again the reasons she claims Oliver had that she understood still failed to so much as mention the other, much more significant reasons why he didn't tell her. Namely that William's mother effectively blackmailed him into promising not to tell anyone about William (which Oliver was too broken of a man and too unwilling to put William through the ugly legal battle to contest it in court like he could have) and that Oliver possessed the integrity to actually keep that promise and thus he couldn't. Oh, and the fact that it wasn't anyone's business but Oliver, the mother, and William himself that Oliver had a son regardless of their relationship with Oliver. Felicity also didn't apologize for dumping Oliver for what amounts to her colossal inability to get over herself and look at it from Oliver's situation and point of view.

Oh, and Team Arrow should have had one of them keep an eye on William the moment this whole debacle with Prometheus started, not to mention after Chase went on the run, in fact it would have been a good trap for Team Arrow to set for Chase, but that's standard stupidity for this show so I'm pretty numb to it.

It wouldn't have been Felicity's business if they weren't about to get married. If they got through with it and Dahrk or this year Chase killed Samantha wanna take a guess on who was going to have to take care of the child? Maybe his father and his brand new step mom? Also he didn't have to put Willaim through legal battles he just had to tell Felicity and ask her not to tell anyone because Willaim's mother was asking him to keep it a secret for unknown reasons she didn't care enough to explain. Oliver chose to be loyal to a woman that told him his child was dead, took a bribe from his mother and blackmailed him over the woman he wanted to marry and start a family with and that's to admire?

Edited May 4, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[bijoux]

19 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I found her distant, cold and detached. Very Waller-esque in her demeanor. I always saw an emotional/passionate spark in Lyla, even at her most cynical. Here, I felt she had lost that spark.

Thanks for explaining, I'll pay closer attention on rewatch to see if it reads the same way to me.

[Chris24601]

My one non-sexy times observations (those seeming to have been thoroughly documented already) is likely plot relevant bit at the end when Felicity was walking that Curtis' fix to her spinal implant is just a temporary patch and will need a full repair before the patch gives out.

Given that the spawn was taken by Chase at the end and the usual end of season rush where the final episodes span at most a couple of days I feel safe predicting that she won't have a chance to get the full repair and that her implant will likely fail again at a plot relevant moment, probably in the finale.

[Mellowyellow]

I thought they said that to explain why she was up again so quickly. And next ep we are to assume she's been fixed properly.

They didn't want her in a chair at the end of 520.

[bijoux]

I really hope you're wrong. Plus, there's supposedly a week in show time before the next episode, so Curtis should be able to handle it by then. I know the kid is in trouble there at the end, but we know Samantha's response time isn't the best from the last time he got kidnapped.

[immortalfrieza]

5 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

It wouldn't have been Felicity's business if they weren't about to get married. If they got through with it and Dahrk or this year Chase killed Samantha wanna take a guess on who was going to have to take care or the child? Maybe his father and his brand new step mom? Also he didn't have to put Willaim through legal battles he just had to tell Felicity and asked her not to tell anyone because Willaim's mother was asking him to keep it a secret for unknown reasons she didn't care enough to explain. Oliver chose to be loyal to a woman that told him his child was dead, took a bribe from his mother and blackmailed him over the woman he wanted to marry and start a family with and that's to admire?

Unless it gets to a point where it is completely unavoidable for Oliver to tell Felicity it is no business of hers that William exists including being informed about him whether they are getting married or Felicity was just some girl Oliver met 5 minutes before he found out about William. Unless it becomes a direct issue Felicity has no involvement in William's existence and thus no stake or say in anything that goes on between the 3 of them, and yes, that includes no business at all in knowing William exists if don't want her know to for whatever reason. If Oliver, the mother, or William himself told Felicity about William's existence for any reason, THEN it would be her business and not a second before. It's admirable that Oliver, regardless of his reasons for giving that promise, had enough integrity and honor to keep his word to not tell ANYONE about William until it became unavoidable or others found out, that's honesty. Felicity had no right to be pissed at Oliver and break up over him over the fact that he was honest and he didn't tell her something she didn't have any reason to know at the time.

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, immortalfrieza said:

Unless it gets to a point where it is completely unavoidable for Oliver to tell Felicity it is no business of hers that William exists including being informed about him whether they are getting married or Felicity was just some girl Oliver met 5 minutes before he found out about William. Unless it becomes a direct issue Felicity has no involvement in William's existence and thus no stake or say in anything that goes on between the 3 of them, and yes, that includes no business at all in knowing William exists if don't want her know to for whatever reason. If Oliver, the mother, or William himself told Felicity about William's existence for any reason, THEN it would be her business and not a second before. It's admirable that Oliver, regardless of his reasons for giving that promise, had enough integrity and honor to keep his word to not tell ANYONE about William until it became unavoidable or others found out, that's honesty. Felicity had no right to be pissed at Oliver and break up over him over the fact that he was honest and he didn't tell her something she didn't have any reason to know at the time.

So it's ok and perfectly reasonable to marry someone while NOT telling them that you have other children on the side. 

Children that they may be legally required to pay child support for once you get married?

[benteen]

While I think it's good that the flashbacks are ending this year, I do hope we get the occasional flashback to the last five year of the show.  Arrow has knocked it out of the park with those, from this tonight to the episode with Chase's father (featuring that fantastic escalator fight).

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, immortalfrieza said:

Unless it gets to a point where it is completely unavoidable for Oliver to tell Felicity it is no business of hers that William exists including being informed about him whether they are getting married or Felicity was just some girl Oliver met 5 minutes before he found out about William. Unless it becomes a direct issue Felicity has no involvement in William's existence and thus no stake or say in anything that goes on between the 3 of them, and yes, that includes no business at all in knowing William exists if don't want her know to for whatever reason. If Oliver, the mother, or William himself told Felicity about William's existence for any reason, THEN it would be her business and not a second before. It's admirable that Oliver, regardless of his reasons for giving that promise, had enough integrity and honor to keep his word to not tell ANYONE about William until it became unavoidable or others found out, that's honesty. Felicity had no right to be pissed at Oliver and break up over him over the fact that he was honest and he didn't tell her something she didn't have any reason to know at the time.

This makes no sense. If they got married and Samantha sued Oliver for alimony whose money do you think she would have come after? Felicity's since she was the one having a job. If Samantha died who was going to have to take William in, take care of him, raise him? Felicity since Oliver was busy being the GA and mayor during the day. Since they were engaged and almost got married Felicity was going to be involved in Willaim's life. That's how relationships work, that's how marriages work. If your husband/wife had a secret family he/she visited during the weekend in another town it wouldn't be your business?

He wasn't honest WITH HER. That's the whole point. You owe loyalty to the people in your life and not in the same way to strangers. Or if a husband cheats on his wife and his lover tells him "promise me you won't tell your wife" he is honorable because he kept that promise? Or if you share your life and are committed to a person you owe her more?

[tv echo]

Some 520-related posts at https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ on May 3...

kasumikai asked:
Hey marc can you give a specific time period when the flashback olicity sex scene happened?
We didn’t have a specific one in mind, but it was closer to 501 than 423.

amellybett asked:
Marc, was there a deleted scene of oliver carrying felicity and putting her on the wheelchair? cause, just a few weeks ago, Stephen posted a pic of what it looked like a transition from FB to present time and we didn't see it in the episode... so, I'm just wondering and if there was... do you think you could post it?
Nope.  That happened off-camera.

smoakd asked:
Thank you for this episode!!! It was sheer perfection. Just wondering - Did David REALLY hang onto Stephen adn Emily like that? Because WOW
I think there were some wires for safety, but that was really David.

smoakd asked:
Is there a longer uncut sex scene you may have? Because I'd like to see it... For science of course.
Of course.  That said, we broadcast exactly what we had.

letswastetimeontheinternet asked:
Hey what kind of wine do you think Oliver and Felicity drank before bunker sex? Also did Curtis buy it specifically for this or do they just have an assortment of alcohol (vodka and scotch have been spotted before) stored in the Bunker?
Malbec, of course.
I think Team Arrow keeps a supply of alcohol in the bunker, hence Curtis’ reference to it.

collectielyuncollected asked:
MARC MY GOOD MAN. everything about tonights episode was great. I love Arrow for so many reasons, but Olicity has always been the thing that keeps drawing me back. Tonight was an amazing example of why. This couple is AMAZING. And just so you know, any small amount of hope that I had before has tripled and I'm taking that ending scene between them as sign. Your fault!
I’ll take it!  Thanks for watching!

hotsforlaurel asked:
The episode seriously killed the amazing momentum s5 has been building up since 5x01. A huge misstep. Please stop olicity once and for all....
As a long-time television watcher and a reasonably long-tine television writer/producer, I honestly have a difficult time seeing how any romantic relationship or lack thereof can influence a series or episode’s quality or lack thereof.  That’s just my perspective.  I fully recognize and appreciate that other people may have a different opinion.

letswastetimeontheinternet asked:
MARCUS THAT EPISODE WAS SO GOOD!
Glad you liked!  Thanks for watching!

blossoming-sunflower asked:
Well that episode was beautiful.
Thanks for watching!

Edited May 4, 2017 by tv echo