S05.E20: Underneath

[leopardprint]

Oh, I get what you're saying @Midnight Lullaby, I don't think Oliver ever explained to anyone (not even Felicity) his reasons for not telling her except in 414 he has this dialogue with Thea about the check. 

(put the exchange under spoiler bar, read at your own risk guys, it's even dumber than I remembered) 

Spoiler

O: "Because Samantha said that the only way that I could see him is if I promised to not tell him or anyone else that I'm his father." 

T: "God, that's-- that is brutal. Are you ok?" 

O: "I thought I was doing ok. I spent a lot of time convincing myself that I was--that I was trying to do the right thing, but then, you know, you brought this-- the--the thing with the check in. I'm not--it's not your fault, but it's--you bring it up right when we're trying to plan an engagement party, and so I'm left to think, "how can I marry Felicity if there's this lie between us?" 

T: "It's not a lie, ok? It's a--it's a promise that you are keeping to the mother of your child."

O: "That doesn't make it right, Thea." 

T: "Look at it from Samantha's perspective. As far as she knows, you are a rich playboy who slept with a bunch of women and got her pregnant." 

(I actually find all the Oliver slut shaming offensive, she slept with her friend's BF, she has no high ground here!) 

O: "I'm not that person anymore."

T: "Now  you're the Green Arrow. Anyone who comes into your life is automatically a target. What Samantha is asking for you to do, as hard as it may be, it is the right thing to do. I know you want to tell Felicity, and trust me, I would love to be an aunt, but you have got to do the right thing for your son here. As hard as this may be for you, Ollie, keeping William a secret is keeping him safe."

OH, FFS, THEA! WYD!?!?!? ????????

This dialogue really makes it seem like the "I didn't trust myself" is some full on retcon. (btw, he didn't seem to have any trust issues with Snuzie Q, ?, even when he freaking really should!)

I really hope, at some point in the next 3 episodes, Oliver will talk to Felicity about how he understands her reasons, I hope that's part of figuring out who he is. 

Here is how I am going to try to make it work for me, I will append "to keep him safe" so Oliver didn't tell Felicity because he didn't trust himself to keep William safe because she would want him in their lives. It still doesn't make sense, because Felicity can a) keep a secret and b) is not a threat to children (wtfever, show) but at least I understand the intentions behind it and it makes Oliver seem less like a frozen basketcase. (Pre517)

Edited May 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yup. Mothers all over the world try to teach their kids stranger danger and she sent a man to her child's bedroom to introduce himself as her friend. She wasn't even there! Great parenting, LOL.

Barry told Oliver to tell Felicity..I don't remember the exact words but I remember Oliver replying that what he was doing with his girlfriend wasn't Barry's business..

I know people were mad at Barry because they were saying what Barry said made Oliver think Felicity broke up with him because he has a son in the erased TL but that's not show canon since the writers never said Oliver was afraid of Felicity finding out and we can't even know if Oliver thought that was the reason for the break up or knowing Felicity he knew it wasn't just the fact of having a son the problem..

I also was kind of annoyed at Barry for falling for the Bro's before Ho's convention. Just because Oliver is dating Felicity doesn't mean that Barry as her friend is off the hook for also keeping her in the dark like that.  He knew how upset she'd be and aren't they friends as well? Give Oliver a chance, sure and even when Oliver didn't step up and tell her, he didn't have to spill the details but he should have IMO given her a heads up about the changed timeline.  Let her know she should talk to Oliver about it.  There was a line later in The Flash about Felicity not returning his calls that I always made head canon that she was pissed about his part in the BMD.  

29 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Oh, I get what you're saying @Midnight Lullaby, I don't think Oliver ever explained to anyone (not even Felicity) his reasons for not telling her except in 414 he has this dialogue with Thea about the check. 

(put the exchange under spoiler bar, read at your own risk guys, it's even dumber that I remembered) 

  Hide contents

O: "Because Samantha said that the only way that I could see him is if I promised to not tell him or anyone else that I'm his father." 

T: "God, that's-- that is brutal. Are you ok?" 

O: "I thought I was doing ok. I spent a lot of time convincing myself that I was--that I was trying to do the right thing, but then, you know, you brought this-- the--the thing with the check in. I'm not--it's not your fault, but it's--you bring it up right when we're trying to plan an engagement party, and so I'm left to think, "how can I marry Felicity if there's this lie between us?" 

T: "It's not a lie, ok? It's a--it's a promise that you are keeping to the mother of your child."

O: "That doesn't make it right, Thea." 

T: "Look at it from Samantha's perspective. As far as she knows, you are a rich playboy who slept with a bunch of women and got her pregnant." 

(I actually find all the Oliver slut shaming offensive, she slept with her friend's BF, she has no high ground here!) 

O: "I'm not that person anymore."

T: "Now  you're the Green Arrow. Anyone who comes into your life is automatically a target. What Samantha is asking for you to do, as hard as it may be, it is the right thing to do. I know you want to tell Felicity, and trust me, I would love to be an aunt, but you have got to do the right thing for your son here. As hard as this may be for you, Ollie, keeping William a secret is keeping him safe."

OH, FFS, THEA! WYD!?!?!? ????????

This dialogue really makes it seem like the "I didn't trust myself" is some full on retcon. (btw, he didn't seem to have any trust issues with Snuzie Q, ?, even when he freaking really should!)

I really hope, at some point in the next 3 episodes, Oliver will talk to Felicity about how he understands her reasons, I hope that's part of figuring out who he is. 

Here is how I am going to try to make it work for me, I will append "to keep him safe" so Oliver didn't tell Felicity because he was afraid he couldn't keep William safe because she would want him in their lives. It still doesn't make sense but at least I understand the intentions behind it and it makes Oliver seem less like a frozen basketcase. (Pre517)

Dear lord, that is bad. I'm finding myself thinking that Thea really does need that time away to fix what's broken inside of her.  

I have to take what Thea said as two separate things.  There is the BS about Oliver not lying to Felicity but keeping a promise to Samantha.  And then there is the part where Oliver not letting the world know he is William's father is keeping him safe so thus Thea understands why she doesn't get to play auntie.  And yes, she directly ties her not getting to play with her nephew and Felicity being kept in the dark as the same thing, a way to keep the kid safe but it makes ZERO sense.  NONE.  

At least Oliver once again acknowledged that keeping his promise to Samantha didn't make not telling Felicity right.  Sigh.  Who am I kidding?  Nothing makes the rage over the BMD stupidity any better.  (Except that if may finally be over)  

Edited May 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[bijoux]

Someone asked about Felicity's scars. The wound from Clock King is definitely there.

[BkWurm1]

I wonder if at this point if all the characters have a body map of their scars for the make up department to follow, lol.  

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

This dialogue really makes it seem like the "I didn't trust myself" is some full on retcon. (btw, he didn't seem to have any trust issues with Snuzie Q, ?, even when he freaking really should!)

I really hope, at some point in the next 3 episodes, Oliver will talk to Felicity about how he understands her reasons, I hope that's part of figuring out who he is. 

Here is how I am going to try to make it work for me, I will append "to keep him safe" so Oliver didn't tell Felicity because he was afraid he couldn't keep William safe because she would want him in their lives. It still doesn't make sense but at least I understand the intentions behind it and it makes Oliver seem less like a frozen basketcase. (Pre517)

More thoughts, specifically on the "I didn't trust myself cause I'm a killer!" retcon.  Building off of your thoughts that maybe Oliver was afraid if he told Felicity she would want William in their lives, maybe instead, Oliver was worried that if he shared the info with Felicity HE would want the kid in their lives.  Hiding nothing.  Oliver wanted a relationship but was afraid that who he was would put the kid in harm.  Diggle's example was a way to cope with that (keep 'em close and be vigilant) but Oliver by himself didn't have strong enough faith in himself but knew that Felicity would and that there was a good chance that if Felicity knew, her faith would give him enough faith to risk it so ultimately his choice not to put her in the loop was him sabotaging that chance at happiness because (wait for it) he didn't trust himself.    

Edited May 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[leopardprint]

@bijoux, you just keep on keeping on (posting gifs/pics)! ??

@BkWurm1, oh man, I so appreciate and applaud your efforts to make this malarkey work. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

9 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

@bijoux, you just keep on keeping on (posting gifs/pics)! ??

@BkWurm1, oh man, I so appreciate and applaud your efforts to make this malarkey work. 

If I can't find a way to kind of sorta, maybe if I hold my breath and squint, find a way to understand, the rage never lets me go.  It's been a loooong year as an Arrow fan.  

Edited May 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[leopardprint]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

If I can't find a way to kind of sorta, maybe if I hold my breath and squint, find a way to understand, the rage never lets me go.  

Oh god, I am right there with you, that's why I am trying to make he did it to keep the kid safe by publicly keeping him out of his life because at least I can somewhat accept irrational and illogical behavior in defense of a child (who would have thought Felicity was on some CPS watchlist somewhere? And speaking of CPS, shouldn't they check up on Samantha...)

Edited May 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, leopardprint said:

Oh god, I am right there with you, that's why I am trying to make he did it to keep the kid safe by publicly keeping him out of his life because at least I can somewhat accept irrational and illogical behavior in defense of a child (who would have thought Felicity was on some CPS watchlist somewhere? And speaking of CPS, shouldn't they check up on Samantha...)

And after William was kidnapped the first time, (by magic welding DD no less) shouldn't they have been concerned when he and his mother fell off the face of the earth?  

[Mellowyellow]

I am zoning out and enjoying the pretty! It works in my head it does and I refuse to address it anymore!!!!!!

HEART EYES ALL THE WAY OLIVER!!!!! Keep shooting them heart eyes and I'll get past anything! 

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Oh, I get what you're saying @Midnight Lullaby, I don't think Oliver ever explained to anyone (not even Felicity) his reasons for not telling her except in 414 he has this dialogue with Thea about the check. 

(put the exchange under spoiler bar, read at your own risk guys, it's even dumber that I remembered) 

  Hide contents

O: "Because Samantha said that the only way that I could see him is if I promised to not tell him or anyone else that I'm his father." 

T: "God, that's-- that is brutal. Are you ok?" 

O: "I thought I was doing ok. I spent a lot of time convincing myself that I was--that I was trying to do the right thing, but then, you know, you brought this-- the--the thing with the check in. I'm not--it's not your fault, but it's--you bring it up right when we're trying to plan an engagement party, and so I'm left to think, "how can I marry Felicity if there's this lie between us?" 

T: "It's not a lie, ok? It's a--it's a promise that you are keeping to the mother of your child."

O: "That doesn't make it right, Thea." 

T: "Look at it from Samantha's perspective. As far as she knows, you are a rich playboy who slept with a bunch of women and got her pregnant." 

(I actually find all the Oliver slut shaming offensive, she slept with her friend's BF, she has no high ground here!) 

O: "I'm not that person anymore."

T: "Now  you're the Green Arrow. Anyone who comes into your life is automatically a target. What Samantha is asking for you to do, as hard as it may be, it is the right thing to do. I know you want to tell Felicity, and trust me, I would love to be an aunt, but you have got to do the right thing for your son here. As hard as this may be for you, Ollie, keeping William a secret is keeping him safe."

OH, FFS, THEA! WYD!?!?!? ????????

This dialogue really makes it seem like the "I didn't trust myself" is some full on retcon. (btw, he didn't seem to have any trust issues with Snuzie Q, ?, even when he freaking really should!)

I really hope, at some point in the next 3 episodes, Oliver will talk to Felicity about how he understands her reasons, I hope that's part of figuring out who he is. 

Here is how I am going to try to make it work for me, I will append "to keep him safe" so Oliver didn't tell Felicity because he didn't trust himself to keep William safe because she would want him in their lives. It still doesn't make sense, because Felicity can a) keep a secret and b) is not a threat to children (wtfever, show) but at least I understand the intentions behind it and it makes Oliver seem less like a frozen basketcase. (Pre517)

Dear God that dialogue is so stupid. Also Oliver told Samantha he wasn't that guy anymore and she said she believed that! So it's like bs within the bs. I hated this story so much because it was an insult to the viewers' intelligence.

It makes Oliver look stupid and it makes Thea looks awful because when Oliver keeping secrets affected her she didn't even want him in her life anymore but sure he can marry Felicity and lie to her, why should she care. Can I explain Thea's behavior as a side effect of the Lazarus pit? It confuses her mind and she doesn't know what she is saying? No? LOL, I tried.

I'm hoping as well when Oliver figures himself out he will tell Felicity something about being the man she needs.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Cleanqueen]

I think they just wanted a way to connect him not trusting himself this season with their break up, obviously it won't fully make sense because the break up itself never made sense. I appreciated them for making the flashbacks work to what was happening in the present, even having oliver and felicity using strength and referencing the salmon ladder in that rescue scene. 

I am fine with how it was concluded, Oliver never made Felicity feel like she was responsible for ending their relationship, he understood and never once scolded her for it even after they had drunken sex. I am just glad we have now past this mess that took way too long for it to ever make sense.

I want a present day kiss and I hope we get it in 5x23, because them making out in Lian Yu is something I need to see. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[leopardprint]

12 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

I think they just wanted a way to connect him not trusting himself this season with their break up, obviously it won't fully make sense because the break up itself never made sense.

Please ignore if you want because I understand if people just want to drop it and move on to hearteyes and makeouts.

I think you are right about the connection, but that's not a thread I have seen (at least in the episodes I have watched) show up before 517, it's doesn't really seem to have informed (even subconsciously) any of his actions prior to 518 but then they are saying it did inform actions from 408 on? 

I also liked how Oliver never blamed Felicity for walking away and even for being respectful of the boundaries she established. It's interesting that maybe she didn't want to talk to him until he was ready to understand himself? 

Edited May 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[Angel12d]

Full offense but Samantha's request for the lie was stupid in the first place. I'd understand if she knew Oliver was Green Arrow. William being the son of GA automatically makes him a target which makes everyone knowing pretty dangerous. BUT Samantha didn't know about that side of him yet. So the whole thing was bullshit and they'll never convince me otherwise. Demanding he keep the secret from the public is one thing, demanding he keep it a secret from the woman he was in a committed relationship with is another. She was a terrible person. 

The whole storyline would have been better if Oliver found out about his son, told Felicity and then said that he didn't want to get to know him because it was dangerous. Felicity would likely have disagreed with that (based on her growing up without her father) and that could've created organic conflict where no one is right or wrong. Instead they did it in this absolutely awful way. 

And then it got worse because Oliver should have told Felicity as soon as Malcolm found out. He should have told her even more when Thea did too. There was no secret to keep at that point but he did it anyway.

Ugh, I get ragey thinking about it which is why I'm not happy with the resolution at all. But I'm so fed up of the awful plotline that I'm also glad it's over. Shame they treated Felicity the way they did to get there though. :(

Edited May 8, 2017 by Angel12d

[Angel12d]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Someone asked about Felicity's scars. The wound from Clock King is definitely there.

Shallow comment but I don't think I've ever seen her look more beautiful than she did in those scenes. Hearts in my eyes!

(If they styled her hair like that all the time, I'd be happy! Haha.)

Edited May 8, 2017 by Angel12d

[Cleanqueen]

16 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Please ignore if you want because I understand if people just want to drop it and move on to hearteyes and makeouts.

I think you are right about the connection, but that's not a thread I have seen (at least in the episodes I have watched) show up before 517, it's doesn't really seem to have informed (even subconsciously) any of his actions prior to 518 but then they are saying it did inform actions from 408 on? 

I also liked how Oliver never blamed Felicity for walking away and even for being respectful of the boundaries she established. It's interesting that maybe she didn't want to talk to him until he was ready to understand himself? 

I guess in a way what she said in 4x16 made sense, that he would always resort back to the man he was on that Island or the man we met in the pilot. Oliver just knew how to sabotage his happiness, because thats what selfless heroes end up doing. They just found an explanation for that this season, making it about him and his fears and self doubt and then Chase telling him he liked to kill.  

Yeah I also liked that she said that he didn't trust others as well and not just her. That he had to find a way to figure out why he was that way and that she couldn't be with him until he did. My fav line was that he wasn't going anywhere and would wait for her when she was ready. 

6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Shallow comment but I don't think I've ever seen her look more beautiful than she did in those scenes. Hearts in my eyes!

(If they styled her hair like that all the time, I'd be happy! Haha.)

that post sex glow up was amazing...all of a sudden i started thinking about how she'd look post wedding night sex. 

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

Yeah I also liked that she said that he didn't trust others as well and not just her.

Making it about everyone and not just Felicity really was a gift.  And it works since everyone in his life has experienced his lack of trust at some point even if not all at the same time.    

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Shallow comment but I don't think I've ever seen her look more beautiful than she did in those scenes. Hearts in my eyes!

(If they styled her hair like that all the time, I'd be happy! Haha.)

I'm still partial to the first date. She was radiant and buzzing with hope and nerves.

[statsgirl]

I wish the writers had put one tenth the effort into making the storyline make sense that we do.

18 hours ago, leopardprint said:

It just occurred to me that of all the people that gave advice on the William thing, the two most important people in his life, he didn't listen to (Diggle) or didn't consult (Felicity). Nice, Oliver. 

But he did listen to Thea!  She's his sister!  The fact that this is a complete 180 on her "SECRETS MUST NOT BE KEPT" stance from seasons 2 and 3 is irrelevant.

6 hours ago, leopardprint said:

 

  Hide contents

O: "Because Samantha said that the only way that I could see him is if I promised to not tell him or anyone else that I'm his father." 

T: "God, that's-- that is brutal. Are you ok?" 

O: "I thought I was doing ok. I spent a lot of time convincing myself that I was--that I was trying to do the right thing, but then, you know, you brought this-- the--the thing with the check in. I'm not--it's not your fault, but it's--you bring it up right when we're trying to plan an engagement party, and so I'm left to think, "how can I marry Felicity if there's this lie between us?" 

T: "It's not a lie, ok? It's a--it's a promise that you are keeping to the mother of your child."

O: "That doesn't make it right, Thea." 

T: "Look at it from Samantha's perspective. As far as she knows, you are a rich playboy who slept with a bunch of women and got her pregnant." 

(I actually find all the Oliver slut shaming offensive, she slept with her friend's BF, she has no high ground here!) 

O: "I'm not that person anymore."

T: "Now  you're the Green Arrow. Anyone who comes into your life is automatically a target. What Samantha is asking for you to do, as hard as it may be, it is the right thing to do. I know you want to tell Felicity, and trust me, I would love to be an aunt, but you have got to do the right thing for your son here. As hard as this may be for you, Ollie, keeping William a secret is keeping him safe."

OH, FFS, THEA! WYD!?!?!? ????????

I'm going to give Thea a slight benefit of the doubt here.  She's wrong about telling Oliver to look at it from Samantha's perspective but she is right that it may be dangerous for William being the son of a vigilante.  Did Malcolm already know bout William then?  Oliver is an idiot for all those trips to Central City with or without Felicity's knowledge.

There are just no words for Samantha though. The logic is so, so stupid.  Why can't William know that his bio-dad is a reformed playboy?  Is it really better to have no idea who his father is?  And to spend time with "Mommy's friends" who he has no idea who they are or why they are playing with him?  Oliver is no genius but I'm beginning to think William inherited his crayon colouring brain from his mother.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And after William was kidnapped the first time, (by magic welding DD no less) shouldn't they have been concerned when he and his mother fell off the face of the earth?  

I tell myself it's because Oliver secretly wanted William to go away permanently.  I know I do.

3 hours ago, leopardprint said:

I also liked how Oliver never blamed Felicity for walking away and even for being respectful of the boundaries she established. It's interesting that maybe she didn't want to talk to him until he was ready to understand himself? 

He only respected the boundaries after she walked away the second time, not only from him as a fiance but from being on Team Arrow after he pushed too hard on the wedding vows.

[BkWurm1]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

He only respected the boundaries after she walked away the second time, not only from him as a fiance but from being on Team Arrow after he pushed too hard on the wedding vows.

Yeah, that was brutal.  As a shipper, part of me wanted everything to be miraculously ok, but for him to just cluelessly twist the knife like that and everyone on the team being oblivious to how much pain it was causing Felicity was excruciating.  And yet at the same time, I can't help cherishing the vow's scene.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

32 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I wish the writers had put one tenth the effort into making the storyline make sense that we do.

But he did listen to Thea!  She's his sister!  The fact that this is a complete 180 on her "SECRETS MUST NOT BE KEPT" stance from seasons 2 and 3 is irrelevant.

I'm going to give Thea a slight benefit of the doubt here.  She's wrong about telling Oliver to look at it from Samantha's perspective but she is right that it may be dangerous for William being the son of a vigilante.  Did Malcolm already know bout William then?  Oliver is an idiot for all those trips to Central City with or without Felicity's knowledge.

 

Yes, Malcolm knew already. Thea and Oliver talk the episode of the engagement party that is the one before they find out the kid got kidnapped. Also Thea tells him she found out because the campaign found the check..and like their side did it makes even more sense for the other side to dig in the candidate's personal life..and the other side was Darhk's wife. So those two were just being complete morons. Between Samantha and the Queen DNA that kid didn't have a chance, LOL.

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

He only respected the boundaries after she walked away the second time, not only from him as a fiance but from being on Team Arrow after he pushed too hard on the wedding vows.

 

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, that was brutal.  As a shipper, part of me wanted everything to be miraculously ok, but for him to just cluelessly twist the knife like that and everyone on the team being oblivious to how much pain it was causing Felicity was excruciating.  And yet at the same time, I can't help cherishing the vow's scene.  

I have a rage filled post about 416 somewhere on here about this, believe me it did not escape my notice. 

I meant post flashback hookup I guess where he respected their boundaries by forgetting they were ever engaged. (look I am trying, positivity is hard! ?)

Flashpoint should have erased William and this whole ridiculous storyline. Baby Sara (an actual toddler) had more street smarts than this kid who acts like a toddler.

Edited May 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

21 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Flashpoint should have erased William and this whole ridiculous storyline. Baby Sara (an actual toddler) had more street smarts than this kid who acts like a toddler.

Yeah, Barry couldn't even get that right.

[lemotomato]

I realize that this a bit of a late request, but can further discussion about the BM storyline move to the Bitterness thread please?

4 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Shallow comment but I don't think I've ever seen her look more beautiful than she did in those scenes. Hearts in my eyes!

(If they styled her hair like that all the time, I'd be happy! Haha.)

The shades of pink-- her lipstick, nail polish, and shirt-- looked really great on her. And totally agree about the hair. Even her post-sex hair was perfectly mussed.

Edited May 8, 2017 by lemotomato

[Angel12d]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

I'm still partial to the first date. She was radiant and buzzing with hope and nerves.

Oh yeah! Agreed. She looked amazing then, too.

48 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

The shades of pink-- her lipstick, nail polish, and shirt-- looked really great on her. And totally agree about the hair. Even her post-sex hair was perfectly mussed.

Yep, all of this. The hair was especially great though. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

But post-sex didn't show her lipstick faded, chewed off, smeared, gone!?You'd think they never kissed!??

[Mellowyellow]

Felicity was stunning/glowing in the sex and post sex scene. She looked really young and vulnerable too. They both did actually *sigh* This ship will kill me. 

[calliope1975]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

You'd think they never kissed!

But that beard burn showed otherwise. ??

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

But that beard burn showed otherwise. ??

Oh yeah...Oh...YEAH...??☺️☺️

[Soulfire]

Mmm beard burn.

[wonderwall]

I agree with @lemotomato The BMD discussion doesn't belong here. 

[lemotomato]

Reminds me of what SA said about filming the 320 love scene-- "I give a lot of credit to Emily in that scene, who wanted to really go for it!"

[statsgirl]

The BMD discussion doesn't belong in the Bitterness thread either because it's not about being bitter about the storyline, it's about analysing it in terms of what Oliver and Felicity said about William and Oliver's lying in this episode. 

I could equally argue that comparing Felicity's post coital glow across 320 and 520 and EBR going for it belongs in the Heartaches thread.

[Mellowyellow]

Well they really went for it in 520!

That part on the floor where they went at it was like all the saucy fanfic ever written!

[LeighAn]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I realize that this a bit of a late request, but can further discussion about the BM storyline move to the Bitterness thread please?

Agreed. Having watched the episode I fail to remember when Felicity said she agreed with Oliver or didn't care that Oliver that he lied to her. All she said was that she had the tiniest understanding of what he's been through the last few years and the choices he made based on her own experiences this season. 

Felicity is ready to move on- isn't it time we all tried to as well? 

The end of the day the writers were never going to find a resolution that would satisfy every single fan and their numerous different ideas. 

Trust or lack of trust was a factor in their break up, trust or lack there of  has been an issue between them this season with in the team so they linked the two situations *shrug*

The episode brought about great progress for them on all fronts that if Felicity needs to tell Oliver she understands, if she is willing to offer him forgiveness so that he can start forgiving himself, if she is willing to bend or compromise so they can start fixing what's broken then I'm personally okay with that. I don't think it's healthy to keep scores in a relationship either.

All I know is that was the first episode all season that felt like all the best that Arrow could be both in terms of romance, action and character driven story telling.

I also especially liked the metaphor that Oliver had a plan to get out which failed, Felicity had a plan to get out, which created more problems and it's only when they worked together that they came up with a successful plan. Much like the show- it's always more successful when Olicity are together :P

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

The BMD discussion doesn't belong in the Bitterness thread either because it's not about being bitter about the storyline, it's about analysing it in terms of what Oliver and Felicity said about William and Oliver's lying in this episode. 

I could equally argue that comparing Felicity's post coital glow across 320 and 520 and EBR going for it belongs in the Heartaches thread.

Quote

Felicity is ready to move on- isn't it time we all tried to as well? 

I get that the BMD has hung over us for a long time and I would love to put it in the past, but this episode provided oodles of new information and angles to look at every thing from. I I can't NOT examine them.  And I do feel that what has been discussed in this thread in regards to the BMD all came up because it was episode related.  All the past stuff makes up our understanding of what the current episode would apply to and yes, it's confusing and complex so it might seem like just rehashing the past, but that is IMO not the intent.   Some of it is minutia, but it's still new thoughts generated based on this episode.

I promise to avoid what might look like pure wallowing over the BMD in this thread and I think I might have exhausted threads to pull anyway, but if I think of another one that does tie in to what we learned in this episode, I still feel this is the proper place, not the bitterness thread.  Because it really isn't about bitterness for me so much as trying to understand all the angles.  All the possibilities.   I hope that makes sense.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

Pretty much..it's not about "keeping scores". It's about understanding the characters in light of new informations and if their actions retroactively make sense.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Tallis]

Underneath on Sky 1 in the UK now. Just waiting to see how much of the sexytimes makes it through uncut. Sky don't have the greatest track record here.

[catrox14]

Gosh, I was just rewatching this and I just love it so much. Just all the Olicity.

I liked Not!TeamArrow (Curtis, Rene and Dinah). I think if the show uses them this way, I'm fine with them now. I just keep thinking, since Checkmate to this episode, "This is more like it!. This is the Arrow that I loved in s1 -mid 3". It just felt right again.

[macstarli]

Long team reader, first time poster :) I just had to leave this thoughts somewhere and this place seemed like a good fit.

I've been re-watching this ep as part of my lazy saturday morning, and it struck me again just how much potential this episode has and it lived up to so much of it and then we get to felicity's apology and I just want to bang my head against the wall. Especially because I don't even think we needed it at all to have Olicity move forward again.

Felicity already said at the end of Season 4 that she didn't actually mean it when she said he'd never change, so the door for him to do just that was already open and then of course in the flashback she added that she needs to understand why (presumably because that means they could work on the underlying issue and thus she would be able to trust that moving forward the same problem wouldn't come up over and over again). And she get's her why in the tunnel, when Oliver tells her it's not that he doesn't trust her, it's that he doesn't trust himself. And I think that's actually a kind of beautiful answer for him, that makes a lot of sense (or, you know, as much as sense as anything character related in this show makes). Not being able to trust yourself is such a major, major handicap that can leads to some pretty stupid decisions, because you're literally second-guessing the entire world and how you see it all the time, because what if you're just wrong. And it makes it so lovely, that you can genuienly tell he does trust her. That's such a testament to his faith in her. Now, granted, it takes some twisting to connect that to the BMD, but I can fanwank, that he wanted to tell her, that his instinct was always to tell her, it's just that he didn't trust those instincts and so he bowed to Samantha's (and later Thea's) judgment instead. The fact that he did want to tell her, must have made it that much harder to convince himself, that he had the right to ignore Samantha's stupid rule, because he had to have wondered if that clouded his own judgment. So there you go. Felicity has her underlying issue that can be adressed and hopefully rectified, Oliver has a positive goal to work towards and Olicity is go, go, GO! No need to have her apologize for being a hypocrite.

And the most annoying thing for me (apart from the fact that Oliver just sat there and nodded, rather than taking responsibility for the fact that his shitty actions blew up the relationship) is that her saying "I get it now because Helix" doesn't even connect to the actual underlying issue as I see it. Apart from the fact that I don't see what is inherintly evil in Helix and her working with them, I don't think any of it had anything to do with her not being able to trust herself. Which was the new thing Oliver told her and why she tells him to figure out what kind of person he is. So how does Helix help her understand why he lied to her if the issue isn't that he's willing to do whatever it takes? And rather being willing to do whatever it takes is just another symptome of the fact that he doesn't trust himself to make solid decisions and be a good person, so instead he resorts to questionable decision making skills?

And why on earth did she have to say she unterstands why he had to lie to her, absolving him of any personal responsiblity? Because the fact that he is all kinds of fucked up, does not mean that he has to make stupid decisions. It might make it more understandable, but the entire point of this is to show that he can learn and move past his issues, so he won't do anything like that again, thus effectively proofing, that he absolutely does not 'have to'. So the fact that he did in the first place is still on him. Not an unforgivable act, sure, no longer something she thinks she can never move past, yeah, but still a fucked up decision, that he has to own. 

And absolutely a decision she had every right to walk away over. So it annoys me to no end, that not only do we get the apology in present time, we also get the apology in the flashback from her for walking away too quickly and not talking and again he just accepts it, rather than owning up the crappy things he did, implying that she really was wrong to just walk away and she somehow owed it to him after all that to try and hash it out. Which is kind of ironic since the entire problem was that at absolutely no point he seemed to think he owed it to her to talk anything over. So now I am incredible bitter that somehow this ep not only had her apolgize twice to Oliver and not have him own up to any of the shit he did, somehow implying that she was wrong in how she broke up with him, but also try and imply that she should just accept the fact that he lied to her and shut her out, because he had no other choice. I just really don't think we needed that. She can have been right to walk away back then and still be open to potentally getting back together with him in the future. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. 

But yeah, other than that, the episode was absolutely gorgeous! I think my favorite moment might be when they're hanging over the vents and Felicity tells him to let her go and somehow he manages to pull her up again. Of course there was never any way she was going to fall to her death and I highly doubt there was any person that Oliver would have willingly let die in that moment, but it still felt like a special refusal to ever let go of her, because it's Felicity! But really, there were so many great moments for those two and the show in general that I am somehow even more annoyed about the other stuff. They couldn't just let me have this one episode to bask in? But back to the positive, I also really adored how they managed to sprinkle quite a lot of funny moments in there without letting it undercut the tension. I've been grinning over Olivers "Hold on tight... Not that tight! Not that tight!" for like a week now and his face after Felicity injects him with the adrenalin is just pure comedy gold. I always like it when my entertainment is actually entertaining. 

[icandigit]

Hmm. Let's see. My take on Felicity's apology in the last scene. This scene was all over the place. My thoughts are over the place. Should Felicity have apologized to Oliver? Did I need Felicity to apologize to Oliver? I don't know. I did really appreciate the sentiment though.  I think the writers lost some puzzle pieces and tried to jam some ill fitting ones in there place.

Its been mention before that foundation of this is BMD. And BMD was a dumpster fire. How do you put out a dumpster fire? I don't know.

I can talk about what I thought the acting was conveying. Oliver was confused by the apology but hanging on her every word because she was opening her heart to him. He wasn't accepting an apology even though it started out with I'm sorry. He seemed overwhelmed that the person he loved the most understood some of his crazy.

I get that relationships have underlying issues that can manifest in different ways. Even if they felt Helix and BMD were the same symptom of a larger issue. I wish they wouldn't have tied them together.  It seemed like they were having to do mental gymnastics to make it work. Or maybe that was me doing them trying to figure out what the hell they were trying to say..

Edited May 21, 2017 by icandigit
Spelling is for losers

[Chaser]

You know they layed some ground work in 4A for Felicity walking away. Her parents relationship, her own fear of losing herself, but they never actually addressed it after the break up. It all became about Olivers trust issues.

I would have really liked that to be mentioned in this episode. I would have liked the apology to go both ways. Felicity can understand him more and apologize for not trying to talk it out and Oliver can apologize for his actions and understand way she walked away.

I loved the episode, but so many missed opportunities that would have made it so much easier to understand.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Chaser

[SmallScreenDiva]

For science ...

[Mellowyellow]

While we're at it, does he call her honey in the salmon ladder scene where he lifts her down? I can't hear it! Twitter claims he did!

[SmallScreenDiva]

23 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

While we're at it, does he call her honey in the salmon ladder scene where he lifts her down? I can't hear it! Twitter claims he did!

It's possible. The thing is Felicity is also talking at the same time so it's hard to suss out what Oliver said exactly, but at the 0.50 mark it does sound like he says "I got you, honey."

[bijoux]

17 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

While we're at it, does he call her honey in the salmon ladder scene where he lifts her down? I can't hear it! Twitter claims he did!

I totally heard it once somebody mentioned they did. I don't think it's the power of persuasion, since I never managed to hear him calling her baby as some people did once she was out of the chamber in 509.

[statsgirl]

Oliver/Diggle:  What do you have on Cayden James?

Lyla:  He's a person of interest.

That could be ironic

Spoiler

Spoiler

if it's Michael Emerson in the role.

 

[BkWurm1]

Huh.  I wonder if they'd hoped to get him even back then.  Nice catch!  

[BkWurm1]

So Underneath is on reruns right now. Yep I'm watching again.  The whole episode is ridiculously rewatchable.

[catrox14]

He totally said it, "I got you, hon..ey..." it's like he stopped himself from saying more.