S03.E20: I Know Who You Are

[benteen]

5 hours ago, mac123x said:

Dear Season 4 showrunners / writers:  Please for the love of all that is sane and rational, make the season-arc villain a) not a speedster and b) not a result of time travel shenanigans.  Thanks.

 

I haven't seen the episode other than bits I was watching during commercial breaks on PLL (that's how far down this show has fallen on my priorities).  I realized this morning that I didn't care if I was spoiled about the reveal.  I'm glad it's Barry because that makes so little sense I can turn off my brain and enjoy the fun.  Oh wait, I'm confusing this with the silly fun of LoT.   I can turn off my brain and enjoy the angst.

I've been saying that for weeks.  Alternatively, have Cisco and Iris go through a portal to some other Earth and not tell anyone where they're going.  If Barry doesn't know, Savitar won't know either so won't be able to follow them.

 

LoTR - Return of the King included hundreds or thousands of deaths, rather brutal battle scenes, decapitations, etc.  Rated PG-13.  The Kings Speech contained no nudity, sex, or violence, but was rated R because of one scene where the Duke of York demonstrates that he doesn't stammer while cursing by saying the F word repeatedly.  The TV and movie Standards & Practices people are insane.

Yes on the threat not being a speedster and YES on it not being the result of time travel.  I'd also like to add that I don't want the threat to be the result of Barry's screw-ups.  I don't consider Barry putting out fires that he started to be heroic.

The R rating for The King's Speech was a disgrace.  That was practically a PG-rated movie.

[tennisgurl]

The Good:

I liked Tracy a lot here, and I thought she and HR were adorable together. HR is really hit or miss as a character, but I liked him this week. He does still need to learn when to make jokes, and when to just shut up. He and Curtis over on Arrow should take a seminar.

The reveal of Barry as Savitar was, as I said earlier, predictable, but interesting. The worst thing about this reveal is that it took us TWENTY DAMN EPISODES to get to this big reveal! If they had just given us this totally obvious reveal ages ago, we could have gotten more into the idea of Evil Future Barry, and how he came to be, and the conflicts this could mean for Team Flash. Still, I'm alright with it, and having it be Future Barry is at least an interesting idea.

Daniele is clearly having a blast being Killer Frost, and she's doing a good job playing evil. And her powers and costume are super cool. Pun totally intended.

The Alright:

I'm not sure how I feel about Cisco in this episode. I'm glad they're giving him more layers and emotions this season besides being the comic relief, and I thought his fears this episode were very valid, but its like they can only write Cisco in two ways. He can be lovable comic relief, or he can be an asshole who takes shit out on his friends. We just finished the second one with Barry, and now with Julian. You can debate whether or not Julian was right to ignore Caitlyn's wishes to save her life, but it still DID save her life, and his intentions were clearly good. I wish they could just show Cisco being upset, without him being an asshole.

The Bad:

I'm sorry, why the hell did Wally think that NOW was a good time to take a jaunt to a parallel universe to visit his girlfriend? Isn't there a lot going on right now, like the super villain, or gee, I don't know, the imminent murder of your sister?!?! If he had to go to see Jessie, then couldn't he at least have brought her back to help out? She's a superhero too!

Cecile is alright, and its nice to see Joe get some PG rated loving, but I'm not super invested in their relationship. Plus, it really rubs me the wrong way that, in the middle of a storyline all about all the guys saving the two helpless female characters, we get yet another woman held prisoner for a man to save. Ok, I might be being harsh here, and normally this wouldn't really bother me, but right now in the show? Its REALLY frustrating.

Did Iris even get one line this episode? Its absolutely ridiculous that Iris gets to do basically nothing in an arc that's all about saving her life. Clearly she is but a fragile girl, who must be sheltered and protected by the men! Just like how Caitlyn is a fragile girl who cant possibly handle serious power! I swear, this isn't something I usually get into, but its just ridiculous this season. Iris is an awesome character, and Candice is a charismatic and talented actress, and they both deserve better.

Edited May 3, 2017 by tennisgurl

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Cecile is alright, and its nice to see Joe get some PG rated loving, but I'm not super invested in their relationship. Plus, it really rubs me the wrong way that, in the middle of a storyline all about all the guys saving the two helpless female characters, we get yet another woman held prisoner for a man to save. And she's a damn cop, and all she can do when held prisoner is cry for Joe. Ok, I might be being harsh here, and normally this wouldn't really bother me, but right now in the show? Its REALLY frustrating.

 

Cecile isn't a cop. She's the District Attorney.

[Dawn16]

28 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

I'm not sure how I feel about Cisco in this episode. I'm glad they're giving him more layers and emotions this season besides being the comic relief, and I thought his fears this episode were very valid, but its like they can only write Cisco in two ways. He can be lovable comic relief, or he can be an asshole who takes shit out on his friends. We just finished the second one with Barry, and now with Julian. You can debate whether or not Julian was right to ignore Caitlyn's wishes to save her life, but it still DID save her life, and his intentions were clearly good. I wish they could just show Cisco being upset, without him being an asshole.

 

[tennisgurl]

Ah thanks @GHScorpiosRule your right! I don't know why I thought she was a cop. Still, not thrilled about that plot point.

Am I crazy, or did Evil Future Barry look a whole lot like Evil Symbiot Peter Parker from Spider-Man 3? All we need now if for Evil Future Barry to start doing a stupid dance routine.

[johntfs]

I come at the Barry/Savitar reveal from the viewpoint of a Rick and Morty fan.  Rick and Morty deals a lot of extra-dimensional travel and alternate Earths.  So the thing with Savitar is that in The Terminator analogy Savitar is John Conner, who sends Kyle Reese back in time to protect his mother and, secretly to become his father and thus ensue his own existence at the ultimate cost of his father's life.  Savitar has to bone Linda Hamilton, er, kill Iris West to come into existence.  Several people are complaining about Barry killing Iris, except that's not really what's happening her.  What's happening is that a version of Barry Allen is killing a version of Iris West.  Assuming he ensures his existence, there's nothing stopping Savitar from shopping (or maybe 'shipping) around the multiverse for another Iris West.

[Dawn16]

Apparently, I can't manage to edit a quote without posting it randomly.

Quote

I'm not sure how I feel about Cisco in this episode. I'm glad they're giving him more layers and emotions this season besides being the comic relief, and I thought his fears this episode were very valid, but its like they can only write Cisco in two ways. He can be lovable comic relief, or he can be an asshole who takes shit out on his friends. We just finished the second one with Barry, and now with Julian. You can debate whether or not Julian was right to ignore Caitlyn's wishes to save her life, but it still DID save her life, and his intentions were clearly good. I wish they could just show Cisco being upset, without him being an asshole.

The Caitlin/Cisco shipper in my house was quite happy with angry Cisco blaming Julian for doing exactly what Caitlin told them not to.  The strength of Cisco's emotion and his fear of hurting Caitlin, to the point where he was apparently willing to let everyone else get hurt/die was fuel for that ship, which honestly I hadn't really seen before.  I'm not sure whether that was the intent at all, but it is a different way of interpreting things than Cisco is an asshole.  

Edited May 3, 2017 by Dawn16

[RobertDeSneero]

If Savitar is future Barry and knows what current Barry knows because he lived it, then it would make sense that the solution is to have Team Flash make a plan that keeps Barry out of the loop.  That's possibly why we had HR on the roof in the future scene, doing something that Barry might not know about.

Does Barry talk about this to the team or do they figure it out on their own and make a plan?

Either Barry's trip to the future affected Savitar and led him to go after Brand when he didn't before, meaning the future can be changed and Iris' death is not set in stone, or this is what always happened and future Barry lied to current Barry about Brand developing the technology four years later because he needs the tech now for some reason.

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I come at the Barry/Savitar reveal from the viewpoint of a Rick and Morty fan.  Rick and Morty deals a lot of extra-dimensional travel and alternate Earths.  So the thing with Savitar is that in The Terminator analogy Savitar is John Conner, who sends Kyle Reese back in time to protect his mother and, secretly to become his father and thus ensue his own existence at the ultimate cost of his father's life.  Savitar has to bone Linda Hamilton, er, kill Iris West to come into existence.  Several people are complaining about Barry killing Iris, except that's not really what's happening her.  What's happening is that a version of Barry Allen is killing a version of Iris West.  Assuming he ensures his existence, there's nothing stopping Savitar from shopping (or maybe 'shipping) around the multiverse for another Iris West.

Errgh. This theory (and this post) constitutes my single biggest gripe with this show. That it keeps alternating between theories of time travel when it suits the plot even though they're mutually exclusive. You can't both be in a single timeline paradox AND be using multiverse theory. Paradoxes don't exist in multiverse theory. That's the point. Terminator (and the Savitar plot) are a single timeline self-fulfilling prophecy. A paradox. But this show keeps telling us the multiverse exists. You can't have Barry's and Iris' from different timelines if you're only dealing with one timeline. And you can't have this kind of paradox in the multiverse. That's why this whole plotline, from Flashpoint on, is dumb. 

I'm still not sure how creating Flashpoint created Savitar except that it led to Flash fighting Savitar in the first place. That can't happen in multiverse theory. Savitar killed Iris because Iris' death is what caused Barry to use time remnants to attack Savitar. But in the multiverse theory, Savitar can't go back and kill Iris in his own timeline because doing so creates a new universe. It's not possible because there's no initial timeline where Savitar was created in the first place. Unless we believe there's a timeline where a future Barry goes back in time and kills Iris for absolutely no reason.

This is my problem with this whole season. "Wouldn't it be cool if..." isn't enough for me as a viewer. It needs to have internal consistency and this doesn't.

Edited May 3, 2017 by AudienceofOne

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay this certainly made MY head hurt, but I'm going to type it out to show unbelievably MORONIC and STOOPID having Savitar be Barry:

Barry (why bother calling him Savitar since it's not someone else, but Barry himself?) kills Iris because Iris's death caused Barry to create time remnants to attack himself for killing Iris.

 

No offense to anyone here who tried to explain this FUBAR'D CLUSTERFUCK, but none of it EXPLAINS WHY Barry would kill Iris in the FIRST PLACE!??????

[johntfs]

16 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

That it keeps alternating between theories of time travel when it suits the plot even though they're mutually exclusive. You can't both be in a single timeline paradox AND be using multiverse theory. Paradoxes don't exist in multiverse theory.

Why can't you?  I think you are conflating "multiverse theory" with the "Many Worlds" theory of time travel.  In the multiverse of The Flash the multiverse exists.  There's Earth 2, Earth 3, Earth 38, Earth whatever.  Within each of those Earths/universes is a timeline of events that caused it to unfold as it did and generally those timelines are separate and do not affect each other.  When Flashpoint occurred, it affect Earth 1, but none of the others.  So, there could be a timeline/paradox within Earth 1, but Earths 2, 3, 38, etc could still exist.  They just don't exist due to time travel.

 

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No offense to anyone here who tried to explain this FUBAR'D CLUSTERFUCK, but none of it EXPLAINS WHY Barry would kill Iris in the FIRST PLACE!??????

Savitarry wants to exist and live.  He can't do that if this Iris is not murdered by him.  Once he exists he can pursue his own goals and desires, which could easily be finding happiness with some other version of Iris from another universe.  He cannot do that if he doesn't exist, so he's making sure that he exists.

[catrox14]

Can Savitar just kill Barry in the past and we can be done with this?

[AudienceofOne]

35 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No offense to anyone here who tried to explain this FUBAR'D CLUSTERFUCK, but none of it EXPLAINS WHY Barry would kill Iris in the FIRST PLACE!??????

If you believe in a single timeline theory vs the multiverse then this makes sense. Well, not "sense" in the usual term but in the sense that it's internally consistent. It's a paradox and since the timeline is singular then the paradox exists as a self-contained loop. Savitar kills Iris, Barry goes dark trying to defeat him, Barry creates time remnants, one of those time remnants becomes Savitar, Savitar goes back in time to kill Iris. Each time Barry enters the loop, it plays out the same way because he's responding to things that have both yet to happen and have already happened.

The existence of paradoxes like this is one of the reasons why the multiverse theory of time travel was conceived in the first place. Each change creates a new universe so the new timeline branches off from that change. This is why this plotline doesn't make sense in terms of multiverse theory. Savitar's creation is predicated on an initial iteration of this timeline where Iris was killed by Savitar before Savitar was created. So unless a future version of Barry went back in time and killed Iris for absolutely no reason then Savitar should never have existed in the first place. So, clearly we're dealing with a single timeline.

Now let's look back to last episode where Barry stayed in the future to "fix the team". Why would he do that? If we're dealing with a single timeline, then that future will be eradicated by him defeating Savitar in the present (which is what he was trying to do). It only makes sense if we're dealing with multiverse theory and that universe will continue to exist after he changes the timeline. Hell, if we're dealing with a single timeline then why would Savitar reveal himself to Barry in this episode? After all, Savitar can't kill Barry because then he won't exist. And now that Barry knows who Savitar is he can just not create the time remnants in the first place. Both of these actions are consistent with the multiverse theory. 

So, which is it? Answer: both depending on what day it is and how the writers feel.

So, yeah, it annoys me. The writers just do whatever they want in any particular episode without considering internal logic. It's poor writing.

Edited May 3, 2017 by AudienceofOne

[waving feather]

All of this is so contrived anyway, that I don't really wanna use my brain cells to ponder about it too much. The writers are just making stuff up as they go along. They have a general broad idea but don't know how to write the actual details of the plot.

I used to love Cisco but I'm so meh with him recently. I actually like angsty Cisco but he was unnecessarily melodramatic regarding hurting Killer Frost. This is not just an ordinary chick, she's a super powered villain for goodness sake. Try to save her AFTER you disarm her, idiot. And why didn't he immediately slap on the wrist cuff or necklace that contains her power when she was unconscious? That kind of silliness to advance the plot makes this show a lousy one.

Joe is so wishy washy, Cecil deserves better. 

The only thing I liked about this episode is Barry's facial expression when it dawned on him that he's Savitar. It was well played by Grant.

[tennisgurl]

28 minutes ago, waving feather said:

It was well played by Grant.

Yeah that was really well done. For all the crap I have given this show lately, the actors are all still giving it there all, and I appreciate how they are still doing their best, even when the plots are increasingly nonsensical.

All this time travel crap just gives me a migraine. Just about everyone has already pointed out all the time travel logistical issues this twist creates, but, really, this wouldn't bother me if the story itself was really engaging, but it really isn't. Over on LoT, the time travel is also full of holes and conflicting rules as to what is and what isn't allowed in time travel, but the plots are so much fun, I really don't care, and can suspend my disbelief. This show needs to work harder to earn its suspension of disbelief.

Edited May 3, 2017 by tennisgurl

[catrice2]

How did the show go from top notch in season one to the mess that was season two to this?  This was the worst reveal of them all.  Grant Gustin just doesn't have the range to play different Barrys.  I barely watch Arrow anymore and the Flash is no longer must see tv....the same with Supergirl.....ah, I guess I will have to watch Daredevil.....oh wait...

[DearEvette]

As I was watching the show I couldn't help but think that this came out of the minds of writers who were probably high-fiving themselves and saying "Dude!! this reveal is gonna be so awesome!!" right after they high fived themselves with coming up with the idea of making Caitlin go all Frozone because 'Dude!  That is gonna be so badass!!!"

Except, I am underwhelmed.  The only thing left is to wonder why Barry would even kill Iris, though?  Even a remnant of Barry.  What leads him there? And 'he goes crazy' just doesn't cut it for me.  Oh well.  I have some small hope they'll pull this season out of its free fall.

Poor Iris, though.  This was a great opportunity for her to try to take control of her own fate.  They have her sitting on the sidelines doing nothing except for pep talking Barry.  Come on, the show has shown her to have brains and be resourceful in the past.  Why isn't she doing some research and coming up with theories.

But then maybe I expect too much.  They obviously have a hard time writing for women characters.

[Sakura12]

With the multiverse theory, then it's nice to know that Iris is just an interchangeable prop to Barry.  He doesn't need that one he can just go pick up another. Well at least Barry selfishness is a consistent character trait on this show. Barry only cares to help himself. That's why I can completely buy Emo Barry ditching everyone after Iris' death and being the one to kill Iris so he can exist. That is why he'll never be a true hero to me. 

You can say what you want about LoT, at least it's time travel fuck ups are still fun. This show has turned into such a downer.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Sakura12

[Argenta]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

If you believe in a single timeline theory vs the multiverse then this makes sense. Well, not "sense" in the usual term but in the sense that it's internally consistent. It's a paradox and since the timeline is singular then the paradox exists as a self-contained loop. Savitar kills Iris, Barry goes dark trying to defeat him, Barry creates time remnants, one of those time remnants becomes Savitar, Savitar goes back in time to kill Iris. Each time Barry enters the loop, it plays out the same way because he's responding to things that have both yet to happen and have already happened.

The existence of paradoxes like this is one of the reasons why the multiverse theory of time travel was conceived in the first place. Each change creates a new universe so the new timeline branches off from that change. This is why this plotline doesn't make sense in terms of multiverse theory. Savitar's creation is predicated on an initial iteration of this timeline where Iris was killed by Savitar before Savitar was created. So unless a future version of Barry went back in time and killed Iris for absolutely no reason then Savitar should never have existed in the first place. So, clearly we're dealing with a single timeline.

I'm glad you've wrapped your head around this so effectively, because I can't. It's all too confuzzling. Thanks for breaking it down. 

*tours the thread handing out aspirin to all those with headaches*

Although the reveal itself wasn't much of a surprise, I think it was executed well. And I have to admit that I find it upsetting to think that any version of Barry would ever even contemplate the idea of killing any version of Iris. I hope the team really kicks it up next episode in exploring every option to save Iris with the new information they now have - and that they have the basic good sense to keep Barry ignorant of the details, so Savi-Bar won't know!

[tankgirl73]

All the commenters saying "why not just send her to another Earth" etc obviously didn't watch the latest season of Sherlock. ;)

[AudienceofOne]

43 minutes ago, Argenta said:

I have to admit that I find it upsetting to think that any version of Barry would ever even contemplate the idea of killing any version of Iris. 

This I can handle. I mean, by the time Barry created the Savitar remnant he was broken and motivated by the need for more and more power to overcome a more powerful enemy. I can imagine a remnant of that broken man becoming power mad and malicious: wanting other Barry's to suffer as he's suffered. Why should they get to live happily with Iris when he can't? Why should they have their friends and families when he doesn't? I can even imagine him travelling through the multiverse recreating himself over and over again to make sure they all suffer as he has. Barry has a tendency to moroseness and self-doubt. This could, over time, twist into vindictiveness. 

Of course, that Barry would never have some silly "mwahahaha" moment that completely undermines his plans.

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Now let's look back to last episode where Barry stayed in the future to "fix the team". Why would he do that? If we're dealing with a single timeline, then that future will be eradicated by him defeating Savitar in the present (which is what he was trying to do). It only makes sense if we're dealing with multiverse theory and that universe will continue to exist after he changes the timeline. Hell, if we're dealing with a single timeline then why would Savitar reveal himself to Barry in this episode? After all, Savitar can't kill Barry because then he won't exist. And now that Barry knows who Savitar is he can just not create the time remnants in the first place. Both of these actions are consistent with the multiverse theory. 
 

1) He feels a moral responsibility to do so, even if it may not matter.

2) If he doesn't succeed in defeating Savitar changing the timeline, then it fixes something caused by his future mistake.  He shouldn't act under the assumption that he will win.

Of course, now that we know Savitar is future Barry, it makes anything that future Barry said suspect because he may just be trying to manipulate current Barry.

Perhaps what we will find out is that Flashpoint is the only thing that made it possible to save Iris by shaking up the timeline and allowing for changes to be made.

Edited May 4, 2017 by RobertDeSneero

[ottoDbusdriver]

When Joe opened the door and found Cecile held hostage by KF, all I could think was 'why was Killer Frost threatening Cecile with a glass dildo ?'
 

[CletusMusashi]

My guess about Savitar's motivation is that he does not come from the same future as Emo Flash.

Rather, he comes from a future in which Iris and Barry did get married and had the world's ugliest divorce.

Maybe you shouldn't have gotten maried after only kissing four times, kids.

[GHScorpiosRule]

No. Just NO. I refuse to accept the idea that any version of Barry would kill any version of Iris. The way this has been set up-FutureBarry is consumed with grief because HE killed her, so now he's created remnants of himself to go back in time to kill Iris?! He wouldn't have to do that if he hadn't killed her in the first place. And so his going crazy and off the rails and wanting to be the God of Speed is so FUCKED UP. Because Barry has always loved Iris, and would never entertain the notion of killing her. Hell, he even fell for Earth 2 Iris! Not to mention, he's never been power hungry.

Plus, he's NOT the first speedster-that would be Jay Garrick.

Kreisberg and whatever writers hacks he hired to write this FUCKED UP, INSULTING ARC, can just FUCK OFF??????

He thought they were being so clever, so creative, so BOLD AND DARING with this shitastic arc-having the hero MURDER the love of his life.??????????

Savitar should have been someone else. Anyone else who didn't know or love Iris. Oh, like Eobard FUCKING Thawne's remnant.

Edited May 4, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[KaveDweller]

In this episode Barry figured out that his future self is Savitar. But last week, 2024 Barry told 2017 Barry that he never figured out who Savitar was. So either 2024 Barry was lying or something changed after Barry's trip to the future.

I can't think of any reason 2024 Barry would lie, other than it was convenient for the writers.

[KirkB]

17 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

In this episode Barry figured out that his future self is Savitar. But last week, 2024 Barry told 2017 Barry that he never figured out who Savitar was. So either 2024 Barry was lying or something changed after Barry's trip to the future.

I can't think of any reason 2024 Barry would lie, other than it was convenient for the writers.

Maybe futureBarry was being a dick, by secretly laughing behind his past self's back? And the whole returning to being a hero thing was just an act? Maybe five minutes after his old self left he killed the rest of team Flash and went looking for a silver metal suit?

I don't know.

Now I kind of like the idea of Barry being THE bad guy all along. Not really of course, but this whole plot makes no damn sense so I have to find enjoyment where I can, you know?

[AudienceofOne]

No, 2024 Barry didn't know. Barry has changed the timeline. That's why 2024 Barry could only trap Savitar, not defeat him, and why it took him so long because Savitar's identity was a requisite for defeating him.

This is also why knowledge of Savitar's identity should have negated Savitar completely. Since we're in a single timeline paradox, once Barry found out who Savitar was, Savitar should have ceased to exist. Since I'm assuming that Barry would now take measures to ensure he never creates Savitar in the first place. Savitar in a single timeline paradox would have never confirmed his identity to Barry because doing so would have erased him. 

Oh, that's right, we're in the multiverse theory of time travel now. 

Yes, I'm sounding like a broken record. I know.

[ParadoxLost]

23 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. Just NO. I refuse to accept the idea that any version of Barry would kill any version of Iris. The way this has been set up-FutureBarry is consumed with grief because HE killed her, so now he's created remnants of himself to go back in time to kill Iris?! He wouldn't have to do that if he hadn't killed her in the first place. And so his going crazy and off the rails and wanting to be the God of Speed is so FUCKED UP. Because Barry has always loved Iris, and would never entertain the notion of killing her. Hell, he even fell for Earth 2 Iris! Not to mention, he's never been power hungry.

Maybe its because I pay too much attention to a handful of things and have no memory for everything else, but I still feel like there is some twist that we don't know about yet.   The dots aren't connecting for me.  Maybe its jus terrible writing but I'm going to hold off until the season ends before throwing up my hands.

There was a lot of weird camera lingering in both future scenes where Iris dies.  Why do we need to see that Iris isn't wearing Barry's engagement ring when she dies?  Why did we need to know that Iris died on Infantino St?  Infantino, really?  Now everything I can think of makes all this more negative but why did they bother?

And Savitar says 'now finally I am free of you.  You lose Barry Allen' to Barry when he kills Iris.  With Savitar as a version of Barry, that means he killed Iris because he wants to shed the goody two shoes Barry Allen.  So it seems more like the theory that Savitar is some remnant inadvertently created by Barry who kills Iris so he can continue to exist.  But how can that happen when Barry knows?  That is pushing me towards thinking Savitar came into existence because of Flashpoint rather some future time loop and wants Barry dead because that version of himself annoys Savitar.

I also don't get why Savitar is creating a bunch of people with powers.

@AudienceofOne  I'm not even going to touch your time travels theories.  There is a reason I picked my name. Its for all the shows that have gotten twisted up in their loopy logic, creating paradoxes and confusing my poor brain that wants to make sense of the nonsensical.  And yet, its the kind of shows most likely to go off the rails with internal inconsistencies that I seem to gravitate towards.

[immortalfrieza]

There exists those rare moments in fiction when a character says or does exactly what you'd want them to say or do, and this episode had one:

Quote

Barry: "Joe, there's no such thing as "normal".

Whenever someone in these kinds of shows laments that they aren't living a normal life, I just want to smack them upside the head and tell them exactly that, because if you live in a universe with a bunch of vampires, superheroes, monsters, whatever, that IS a normal life for you, and you better stop with the denial and get used to it.

17 hours ago, mac123x said:

Dear Season 4 showrunners / writers:  Please for the love of all that is sane and rational, make the season-arc villain a) not a speedster and b) not a result of time travel shenanigans.  Thanks.

Don't forget about with season 4 not pulling the whole "GASP! the big bad is actually one of Team Flash!!!" thing they've done every single season now again. They've taken that to new levels of absurd at this point.

Paradoxes... Actually most of the ones I've seen are only paradoxes because it acts under the faulty assumption that there was never an origin point for it. It just as easy that the first time around in this loop, Iris ended up being killed by some supervillain, probably one that didn't exist before Flashpoint, Barry eventually went mad from the grief and self-loathing, became Savitar, then when back in time to kill the supervillain but once he did, realized that he just did something that will wipe himself and all this NEW GLORIOUS POWER!!! away, so he went and killed Iris himself to ensure his own existence, which is really when the cycle started and without the other supervillain in play at all. Of course it doesn't make sense for Savitar to kill Iris, insane people don't do things that make sense.

Of course, this is just a way it could have happened without it actually being a paradox, just looking like one. I expect the writers would never put anywhere near as much thought into this whole Savitar storyline as that and just made it a standard paradox.

Edited May 4, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Grace19]

Yes! I was right about savitar being Barry. 

I know some people guessed it, but I love how they pulled it off and sincerely, Barry being savitar was the most plausible outcome.

Killer frost was badass, but I didn't buy it that Barry couldn't take her out easily, the same goes for Cisco.

This episode was boring except for the last few minutes 

I don't blame Wally for not being there, I blame the writers. They obviously didn't want Wally there because it would be highly unconvincing that two speedsters couldn't catch killer frost, so they came up with this earth 3 stupid idea.

Joe is a fool for dumping Cecil, but I like them together.

[Grace19]

Any show that incoperates time travel never makes much sense if you try to over think it, i just enjoy it for what it is. The show this savitar storyline reminds me of is misfits, season 2 and 3 particularly. There was a time loop about one of the main character dying and another character trying to prevent her death, it was beautiful, but was also tragic. I'm not worried for iris, I know she's not going to die.

It might not make much sense how Barry would ever kill Iris, but this is an insane Barry we are talking about. Insanity is completely unpredictable. I've seen people on other boards question why iris death is something Barry could never get over since he already lost his mother and father. But that is the very reason this would be harder for him. Iris was there for him when he lost his mother, and her friendship with Barry must be the only reason Joe agreed to take Barry in. My head cannon is that she begged her father to since Joe was not a friend of the family. So because of iris, Barry had a home after he lost his parents. With Barry being in love with her already that love became magnified, and then last year he lost his father, coincidentally he just started dating iris so being with her helped him get over that. Iris has been a constant throughout these hard times, then iris dies, barely a year after his father's death, there is so much the human mind could take. I really don't blame Barry for going insane.

Now if it was just a regular person, it wouldn't affect others much, but Barry is a guy with godlike powers, he is not ordinary, he has the ability to manipulate time. Its not surprising that an insane Barry without iris would become obsessed with power as others with greater power took his parents from him making him feel powerless. His obsession with power would then make him feel that he is a god, and shun anything (Iris) that would make him vulnerable and powerless again.

So it kind of makes sense to me that an insane Barry could kill Iris to maintain his god complex, hence creating a paradox. Where he goes back in time to ensure iris dies and he gets created.

Grant did a good job playing savitar, I can't wait for him to kill it more, he is a good actor.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Grace19 said:

Killer frost was badass, but I didn't buy it that Barry couldn't take her out easily, the same goes for Cisco.

Killer Frost is only "badass" because Barry & Cicsco wouldn't take her out.   She is benefiting as the girl who hits but whom the boys won't hit back. This pisses me off.  She is going for kill shots and they are all "But Caitlyn, this isn't youuuuuuuuu." Also why the bondage gear?  So not only does KF make Caityn evil, it compels her  to dress up in thigh high boots, booty shorts and a leather Duster?  I just can't with the whole KF thing.  It is a shame because KF could have been interestingly deployed. 

[Sakura12]

On this show the female characters are not allowed to have any kind of agency. They are there to be love interests or are plots for manpain. They need to be rescued by all the male heroes. 

So Killer Frost's purpose is too look sexy. And like Barry bragging about himself being the fastest man alive without proof, Caitlin's naming herself Killer Frost before she kills anyone. The because comics excuse that makes no sense in the narrative these writers used.

They could've really given Caitlin an interesting and deep storyline with Killer Frost. They could've developed her character more given her something to deal with as the show continues. But, nope. She's a female, she only needs to look sexy, say some vaguely evil things until the men rescue her. 

She's got it mildly better then Iris who doesn't get any lines in her own storyline. Candice Patton is basically being paid to show up to work and sit in a chair. I guess she gets to work on her reaction shots. I actually want them to kill Iris so CP can go get a job where she can do some acting. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Sakura12

[Grace19]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Killer Frost is only "badass" because Barry & Cicsco wouldn't take her out.   She is benefiting as the girl who hits but whom the boys won't hit back. This pisses me off.  She is going for kill shots and they are all "But Caitlyn, this isn't youuuuuuuuu." Also why the bondage gear?  So not only does KF make Caityn evil, it compels her  to dress up in thigh high boots, booty shorts and a leather Duster?  I just can't with the whole KF thing.  It is a shame because KF could have been interestingly deployed. 

You are right, but her riding on the ice is still cool to watch

[CletusMusashi]

They may not be doing a good job with her character motivation, but that's not exactly a problem unique to the female characters. Barry wants to kill Iris because... he was so upset at her being killed by him? Wally is obsessed with being fast and popular, and that's somehow supposed to be heroic? Shit, Wally as Savitar would make more sense than Barry.

But one thing they're nailing is the ice effects. I'm so tired of most of the FX just being lightning and energy swirls. After a while, that instills no sense of wonder in me any more. The freeze power stuff they give KF may have a million holes in it scientifically, but it's certainly fun to watch.

[Grace19]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

 

She's got it mildly better then Iris who doesn't get any lines in her own storyline. Candice Patton is basically being paid to show up to work and sit in a chair. I guess she gets to work on her reaction shots. I actually want them to kill Iris so CP can go get a job where she can do some acting. 

I really feel for Candice, I don't know what she ever did to these writers. I don't care what anybody says, I believe the writers and the producers hate Candice. Nothing else makes sense, even the most plausible place to incorporate her journalism, they refuse to do so, a story line about her should have been used to give us her point of view more, but rather we were given Joe's point of view. Its so exhausting. What makes it worse is that you will see them bend over backwards to give Julian and HR storylines but will refuse to give Iris the bare minimum. Even this new character got more development than her in an episode, patty also had more scenes and focus for the 10 episodes she appear in. Its not that they don't know how to write her, they just don't want to.

Yes I am going to go there, this goes beyond misogyny, this reeks of racism. Its almost like they were forced to hire her because they wanted a black Wally west. The show runner did admit that they made the wests black because of wally west. I also believe that someone higher up told them to leave westallen alone, if not, I don't even think she would have that. So they have to keep westallen but they can screw over Iris west.

The thing about killing Iris west is that, Candice Will loose her job, its not easy for anyone in Hollywood, its especially worse for black women. She might find it hard to get a job as a regular on another show. If I was sure she would get a better job, I will pray for them to kill her and quit watching like I did with person of interest when Carter was killed off. Its not like this show is that great, I am just sticking it out for the actors I like and the family dynamic between Barry and the wests and of course westallen.

I just hope something changes in season four, especially for Iris. For the main time I kind of enjoy this Barry is savitar twist, let's see how they resolve it.

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, Grace19 said:

It might not make much sense how Barry would ever kill Iris, but this is an insane Barry we are talking about. Insanity is completely unpredictable. I've seen people on other boards question why iris death is something Barry could never get over since he already lost his mother and father. But that is the very reason this would be harder for him. Iris was there for him when he lost his mother, and her friendship with Barry must be the only reason Joe agreed to take Barry in. My head cannon is that she begged her father to since Joe was not a friend of the family. So because of iris, Barry had a home after he lost his parents. With Barry being in love with her already that love became magnified, and then last year he lost his father, coincidentally he just started dating iris so being with her helped him get over that. Iris has been a constant throughout these hard times, then iris dies, barely a year after his father's death, there is so much the human mind could take. I really don't blame Barry for going insane.

Barry has two sides to him, a very selfless side and a very selfish side. There's the selfless Barry who let the murder of his mother happen at the end of season 1 for the greater good. Then there's the selfish side who went back in time to stop it creating Flashpoint. We've also seen it in the future where he broke Iris' promise to look after Joe and just wallow alone in his own pain and self-pity. Likewise we've seen one time remnant of Barry be selfless in the season 2 finale who sacrificed himself to stop Zoom from destroying the Multiverse. I can imagine another time remnant being just as selfish and deciding to make everyone miserable including the original Barry in the past just so he could exist.

Edited May 4, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Potanical Pardon]

38 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

The thing about killing Iris west is that, Candice Will loose her job, its not easy for anyone in Hollywood, its especially worse for black women. She might find it hard to get a job as a regular on another show. If I was sure she would get a better job, I will pray for them to kill her and quit watching like I did with person of interest when Carter was killed off. Its not like this show is that great, I am just sticking it out for the actors I like and the family dynamic between Barry and the wests and of course westallen.

Or they bring her back to life in the 31st Century to be reunited with Barry after he does something controversial in the present where they have kids, the Tornado Twins, and we get Jenni and Bart from that. Then they and Bart come back to the present.

[johntfs]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. Just NO. I refuse to accept the idea that any version of Barry would kill any version of Iris.

Not for nothing but the current version of Barry also really loved his mother.  At the top of this very season he also arranged for Eobard Thawne to murder his mother.  Now, sure, he had some timey-wimey reasons to do that, but he still had his own mother murdered while he watched.

Just because Iris dies that doesn't mean Candice Patton leaves the show.  Maybe she comes back as Earth-2 Iris who is pursuing a supervillain who murdered her Barry Allen.  Maybe Iris is suddenly resurrected but possessed by an entity from Hell and is secretly the new villain, Speed Demon.  Once you've established the idea of time travel and multiple universes, you can pretty much do anything you want for any reason you want.

Edited May 4, 2017 by johntfs

[RobertDeSneero]

15 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

No, 2024 Barry didn't know. Barry has changed the timeline. That's why 2024 Barry could only trap Savitar, not defeat him, and why it took him so long because Savitar's identity was a requisite for defeating him.

This is also why knowledge of Savitar's identity should have negated Savitar completely. Since we're in a single timeline paradox, once Barry found out who Savitar was, Savitar should have ceased to exist. Since I'm assuming that Barry would now take measures to ensure he never creates Savitar in the first place. Savitar in a single timeline paradox would have never confirmed his identity to Barry because doing so would have erased him. 

Oh, that's right, we're in the multiverse theory of time travel now. 

Yes, I'm sounding like a broken record. I know.

Savitar said he was wondering when Barry would figure it out.  Since Savitar is one step ahead because he remembers the past, it seems like he figured it out, too, so he is just helping Barry along in a way that brings the future about.

I am willing to go with the possibility that Savitar is a time remnant from the pre-Flashpoint universe and is trying to make sure that the events that lead to his existence still happen, since Flashpoint changed enough to make that uncertain.  Changes in the timeline aren't always instantaneous.  Iris was going to die, but Flashpoint created instability in the timeline that made changing the future more possible.  Flashpoint means Iris doesn't have to die, but she still might.

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Savitar said he was wondering when Barry would figure it out.  Since Savitar is one step ahead because he remembers the past, it seems like he figured it out, too, so he is just helping Barry along in a way that brings the future about.

I am willing to go with the possibility that Savitar is a time remnant from the pre-Flashpoint universe and is trying to make sure that the events that lead to his existence still happen, since Flashpoint changed enough to make that uncertain.  Changes in the timeline aren't always instantaneous.  Iris was going to die, but Flashpoint created instability in the timeline that made changing the future more possible.  Flashpoint means Iris doesn't have to die, but she still might.

If Savitar is from another timeline then nothing Barry does has any bearing on his existence - by definition. This is my entire point. Unless Savitar is trying to create another Savitar. 

10 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Any show that incoperates time travel never makes much sense if you try to over think it, i just enjoy it for what it is. The show this savitar storyline reminds me of is misfits, season 2 and 3 particularly. There was a time loop about one of the main character dying and another character trying to prevent her death, it was beautiful, but was also tragic.

Please don't bring up that Misfits storyline. It was an utterly brilliant self-contained time loop. That was totally perfect and, as a character said, dead romantic. That was Misfits at its pinnacle of storytelling.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Eobard, you genius MF'er.  Had it right the whole time... ever since the very beginning of the season.

[Trini]

Orrrrrr... the writers were planting clues from the beginning (but somehow still thinking the reveal would be a huge surprise).

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Orrrrrrrr... I was just attempting to make a joke and imbue some levity.   *sheepishly shrugs*

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

Highly disappointed there wasn’t more Iris in this one. The last episode was set in the future, so it made sense we didn’t see much of her, but COME ON. Iris could have had some of the scenes with Tracy, or with Cisco (instead of Julian, who was not needed), or with Joe about Cecile. *HARSH SIGH*  Whenever people say Iris is “useless”, at least I’ll always be able to point to HR and Julian in Season 3.

HR was a lot more tolerable and actually was kinda helpful here - Cavanugh and Dudek played off each other well. Still want HR gone, though. Tracy can stay if we can’t have Tina McGee.

Joe and Cecile continue to be cute, but dumb that he broke up with her after the “I love you”. You don’t need to be dumb in your love life too, Joe!  Speaking of Cecile, with her kidnapping, now she’s an official Team Flash member! ? Also LOL at the staging of the breakup scene because of the actors’ height difference!

I really liked the part where Barry made a flamethrower with his hands. More moments with Barry being smart all by himself, and using his powers creatively, please!

Way to throw Wally under the bus (again!) because you’ve overpowered your cast, Show. We really need writers who know how to handle an ensemble.

So is Cisco using a new leave-in, or gel? Tell us your hair secrets, Carlos! He’s totally pulling off those tousled waves.

I know Julian didn’t want Caitlin to die (and I didn’t either), but  I’m totally on Cisco’s side with being mad (and snippy) at him. And I appreciated them letting Cisco voice his fears about fighting Killer Frost; but like another poster pointed out, his powers (so far) haven’t been shown as deadly. So his feared seemed kinda unfounded.

So what is the plan if and when they catch KF? If they put the power dampeners on her will Caitlin come back? (Argh— I hate this split personality thing SO MUCH) She seems to have chosen her side. Didn’t like them erasing the security footage to “protect” Caitlin. Do they expect Cecile to pretend she doesn’t know who KF is?

It’s annoying when an super-powerful villain doesn’t just use their superpowers to quickly end any threat against them; but Savitar at least seems to need to stick to a certain schedule.

Even though it wasn’t a surprise that Savitar is Barry, I was still holding on to a sliver of hope that they would go in another direction. But the reveal itself was executed well, I’m glad Barry figured it out himself. So this is like the fourth (fifth?) version of Barry Grant is playing. We saw rage!Barry in season one, but this is the first outright evil character he’s done in the show.

Of course they made the reveal a cliffhanger, and couple episodes too late into the season. I feel like we would need at least a whole episode to explain how this version of Barry got so twisted, but I don’t think we’re going to get that. ::sigh::

Did they compose new music for the reveal scene? Or has that been Savitar’s theme the whole time? I’m not sure.

So with all the special effects in this one, I’m guessing the next episode will be effects-light. The ice slide did look good - even if physically impossible.

[johntfs]

I liked Danielle's look as Killer Frost, but there's just something about her personality.  She comes off as a "bad girl" emphasis on "girl."  Like, if you picked her up in nightclub, the end of the night with her would be you holding her hair while she pukes in a bathroom because she had too many appletinis.

Edited May 5, 2017 by johntfs

[GHScorpiosRule]

I just saw this gif on my FB feed and realized in my disgust and anger over who  Savitar ended up being, I forgot to write the one positive-Barry showing his Geeky Skillz! Like that thing he did, generating electricity by rubbing his fingers in front of that doohickey that then shot out fire at Killer Frost!?Plus all his science talk with Tracy!

Something positive!

[Last Time Lord]

I don't think this is what they meant by "Man Vs. Self"

[Argenta]

I find Tracy kind of irritating. I think she's a little ditzy.