S06.E19: The Black Fairy

[InsertWordHere]

I think that ship sailed (hee) when the writers chose not to even mention Smee's reaction to Hook's death. 

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, InsertWordHere said:

Oh yeah. Was Fiona going to use Tiger Lily's heart or Malcolm's? I assume she wasn't going to use Rumple's. Was she even aware of the price?

I guess it didn't matter that Tiger Lily wasn't the one she loved most.  Or maybe it's a very special exception if you use your Fairy Godmother's heart.  Because.

 

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

1: yup. babies are born into Saviour-roles. Emma was born to be a saviour, remember? she just had to remember/trigger it. 

Maybe you were just joking, but I always assumed she was born as the Savior only because there was a Curse to break that required a Savior.  As you said, Saviors were for a very specific purpose.  

[InsertWordHere]

I thought originally her savior status had to do with being a true love baby. So does that mean Rumple and Aladdin are also products of true love? 

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I guess it didn't matter that Tiger Lily wasn't the one she loved most.

I guess Tiger Lily was her Felix. So was Tiger Lily just hanging out in Neverland in case Pan ever found out they lied about Fiona being alive? Waiting for Fiona to show up for all the Lost Boys? Forming a former fairy club with Tink even though she wouldn't arrive in Neverland for a century or two? Ooh, maybe Blue sent her there after Baelfire arrived and she somehow prevented Rumple from finding out Bae was in Neverland for 100 years. Still doesn't explain her absence in 3A though. 

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

I always assumed she was born as the Savior only because there was a Curse to break that required a Savior.  As you said, Saviors were for a very specific purpose.  

Emma was the Saviour because Rumpel sprinkled a little bit of the bottled True Love of her parents on the curse scroll. I give you this from the S1 finale:

Rumpel: From strands of your parents’ hair, I made the most powerful potion in all the realm. So powerful, that when I created the dark curse, I placed a single drop on the parchment. Just a little safety valve. 
Emma: That’s why I’m the saviour. That’s why I can break the curse.

This show is really bad at maintaining its continuity, but that was a huge moment/plot point in the finale, so ignoring it is really, really stupid. Note that Rumpel created the curse and made Emma the Saviour.

Edited May 1, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Rumpel: From strands of your parents’ hair, I made the most powerful potion in all the realm. So powerful, that when I created the dark curse, I placed a single drop on the parchment. Just a little safety valve. 
Emma: That’s why I’m the saviour. That’s why I can break the curse.

Thanks.  I remembered that, but couldn't find where/when it was said.

[Camera One]

34 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

So was Tiger Lily just hanging out in Neverland in case Pan ever found out they lied about Fiona being alive? Waiting for Fiona to show up for all the Lost Boys? Forming a former fairy club with Tink even though she wouldn't arrive in Neverland for a century or two? Ooh, maybe Blue sent her there after Baelfire arrived and she somehow prevented Rumple from finding out Bae was in Neverland for 100 years. Still doesn't explain her absence in 3A though. 

We could probably fill a scroll of questions that this episode should have answered but didn't, and all the new questions that this episode raised which were not answered, or which makes zero sense.

So Blue was just outright lying that she didn't know why the Black Fairy turned dark?  Or did the Writers just change their mind?  This was dialogue from "Changelings":

- I thought that all fairies were good.
- Well, she used to be good once.
- What happened?
- No one knows exactly. Just that her heart blackened and she stopped defending the children that she was meant to protect. She started stealing them instead. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Camera One

[superloislane]

46 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Rumpel: From strands of your parents’ hair, I made the most powerful potion in all the realm. So powerful, that when I created the dark curse, I placed a single drop on the parchment. Just a little safety valve. 
Emma: That’s why I’m the saviour. That’s why I can break the curse.

This show is really bad at maintaining its continuity, but that was a huge moment/plot point in the finale, so ignoring it is really, really stupid. Note that Rumpel created the curse and made Emma the Saviour.

Yeah but technically Emma jumped to that conclusion herself. That's why she was able to break the curse but not why she was the Savior - she was born as that. In season 2 (nine episodes after this scene), Emma confronts Rumple about making her the Savior and he says he didn't:

Emma: You created the curse, Gold. You made me the saviour. So everything I’ve ever done… It’s exactly what you wanted me to do.

Mr. Gold: I created the curse, dearie, but I didn’t make you. I merely took advantage of what you are – the product of true love. That’s why you’re powerful. And everything you’ve done, you’ve done yourself.

Although they can't get away from the amount of times it's said that Rumple created the curse...

Edited May 1, 2017 by superloislane

[KAOS Agent]

That scene doesn't contradict Rumpel making her the Saviour. He used her parents' True Love to create a safety valve. She is the product of that True Love and that's why he was able to take advantage of who she is. He didn't control her actions or choices, that was all her. He simply used what made her powerful to make her the curse breaker. 

In other news, I finally watched the episode. I spent most of the time annoyed at all the retcons on top of retcons on top of retcons going on. And nothing made any sense.

Notes:

- Belle is the dumbest person ever. Rumpel is a Saviour, so he's good? But wasn't he always a saviour? He's been murdering people right and left for centuries while the Saviour, so how does that work exactly? Obviously, his destiny was severed, so it's not even the case, but this was truly awful logic.

- Emma's wedding is going to be destroyed. One more thing to be ruined in her life by the Stiltskin clan. Oh and then she's fated to die. It's good to be the Saviour.

- Jaime Murray is great, but I'm so not interested in the Black Fairy being the evilest evil that ever eviled. 

- I loved Zelena running over the Black Fairy, but I wish she'd waited until the Black Fairy had thrown Regina around a bit before she got there. 

- On the Zelena D-plot, I take it that Zelena is Xander and Henry is Dawn. Will she drug Henry to take him forcibly out of town before the Final Battle? I think I've seen this one before.

- Why didn't Tiger Lily or Blue poof the shears back into their hands? And why did Blue wait to open the banishment portal until after she'd severed the baby's destiny? And why the hell did they leave the baby with Malcolm who clearly hated his son? 

[AudienceofOne]

7 hours ago, Curio said:

We are going to retcon so much. We’re going to retcon at every level. We’re going to retcon Rumplestiltskin, we’re going to retcon the Black Fairy, we’re going to retcon the Dark Curse. We are going to retcon with every single facet. We are going to retcon so much you may even get tired of retconning. And you’ll say, "Please, please, it’s too much retconning. We can’t take it anymore. A&E, it’s too much." And we’ll say, "No it isn’t. We have to keep retconning. We have to retcon more. We are going to retcon more. We are going to retcon so much."

But have they retconned a retcon they already retconned earlier in the season? Then they're not at Chuck levels of retconning yet. I anticipate it soon if it hasn't already happened.

6 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I actually think Rumple is pulling a long con on Mommy Dearest - guess we'll see.

 

Rumple's entire life is a long con. He's even in a long con with his wife. Admittedly, she's the world's easiest mark but still. 

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I thought originally her savior status had to do with being a true love baby. So does that mean Rumple and Aladdin are also products of true love? 

Yes she was a true love baby, which is why she could be a saviour but it wasn't why she was the saviour. I guess Rumple is a child of Twu Wuv too.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

We could probably fill a scroll of questions that this episode should have answered but didn't, and all the new questions that this episode raised which were not answered, or which makes zero sense.

How about "if the final battle was between Rumple and his mother and she turned dark and was going to enact to curse to stop it, then why did she initiate the whole thing by attacking Storybrooke in the first place?"

[Curio]

Some stray thoughts: 

Since when does Zelena say "bloody hell" as her go-to curse word? She said it several times this episode and it felt weird hearing those words not come out of Hook's mouth. Is it the writers' rule to give every character with a British accent those curse words?

I wouldn't mind seeing Tiger Lily as a more regular cast member. She and the Black Fairy's actress did some great acting, even if the material they were given was subpar.

Are we supposed to assume that Rumple's cowardice is tied directly to the Black Fairy cutting his Savior fate? It seemed like they were trying to imply that the Black Fairy cursed Rumple to always be a coward, the opposite of a Savior, and that's why he always makes poor decisions in life. I despised that reasoning with Lily too because it takes away free will and culpability. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Curio

[Chaos Theory]

Didn't also The Charmimgs consider cutting Emma's fate to protect her.  What harm could it do?  Well i think this kind of shows it.  I would have liked the show to acknowledge it but whatever.  Cutting Rumple from his destiny started a string on very bad unintentional consequences.  

[Primetimer]

A flashback via dream-memory takes us all the way back to Rumple's birth to show how his mom became the Black Fairy, why everyone needs to stop trying to mess with fate, and that evil is usually more fun than good.

View the full article

[Daisy]

21 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Didn't also The Charmimgs consider cutting Emma's fate to protect her.  What harm could it do?  Well i think this kind of shows it.  I would have liked the show to acknowledge it but whatever.  Cutting Rumple from his destiny started a string on very bad unintentional consequences.  

I'm curious though... if this wouldn't have happened regardless. remove all the fairybacks for a moment and let's go with what we know from season 1 + 2. 

Rumple marries Milah. Milah "dies". Rumple is happily raising his son, here comes the ogre wars and Rumple wants to avoid that fate (ie: death) to his only son. Zozo tricks him into becoming the dark one. Rumple is slowly seduced by the power to the point when given the choice of giving up the power and going with his son to a world without magic - he chose the power. 

(and ultimately we realise that Rumple's love for his son caused him to cripple himself, and cause Milah to leave him because she couldn't deal with being a coward-deserter. but that imo didn't prompt Rumple into being all Dark + twisted, until after he was the dark one). 

So even knowing that Rumple was at one time a saviour - if somehow the power inside of him wouldn't have corrupted. Fiona's only intention was to protect rumple, to the point she turns into a fairy. (i mean we'll ignore the fact she was going to kill an innocent baby, but hey we'll work with it).but that single-minded focus caused Fiona to turn evil. Malcolm became a drunk (but i mean if Fiona died from the flu does this still/doesn't happen? I always got from the season 3 episode Malcolm just wanted to be free from everything, and again, that became the th single-minded focus. ditch everything, be 18 again, all happiness to the point he turns into Pan).

Rumple's is so scared about losing Douchefire, he cripples himself, and then embraces power to prevent him from losing him... until he does because he can't lose the power. But I do think, knowing what we know from that family. we would have seen an "Evil Saviour" which, imo would have been SO. AWESOME.. maybe not. this show these writers - but better than what we've got now). 

at any-rate. I think Saviour Magic or no  Rumple's life turns out to be full of craving power. vs. doing the right thing. 

(side note: How did i forget about Zelena's IKEA lament. "If those swedes can best me." don't worry honey. IKEA gets everyone in the end.). 

[angel1008]

One thing we can always count on with Rumple, is you can never really count on him.  So... that being said, what makes Fiona think SHE can trust him?  He may end up turning on her and I believe he will lose yet another son due to his untrustworthy ways. 

[tri4335]

9 hours ago, Dianthus said:

It just really hit me, after watching this, how small Hook's world has become. He's found his Happy Ending, so that's good, but he's lived his whole life (until recently) as part of a tight-knit group, and now the only one he can ask to be his best man is his soon-to-be stepson (who isn't actually a man quite yet). I mean, where the hell is Smee?

I'm okay with this as having your partner's child be a prominent role in the wedding is typical in the blended family weddings I've been invited/involved.  The only other role available would've been to walk Emma down the aisle which was taken by Snowing.  I'm just hoping against hope that Regina is not the Matron/Maid of Honor.

[tennisgurl]

Alright so...where to begin?

When did our heroes turn into such utter idiots? WHY would they truth Rumple would it comes to this? I know that he has frequently aided them, but it was always for his own agenda, it just so happened that a lot of those agendas matched up with what the heroes wanted as well. They know the guy by know, they know he puts his own wants and needs first, so now that he had Gideon and Belle, he couldn't care less about anyone else. More importantly, they didn't just ask a few more questions, or do some checking? Even if they believe that Rumple did take out his mom, they did just try to ask some more questions? Again, they know this guy, they know he always has some kind of con job or back up plan, even if he did defeat the Black Fairy, they should have KNOWN he had some other agenda! Come on! Also, a semi reformed villain whos estranged, magical, shape shifting mother shows up to wreck havoc and tempts their magic semi reformed villain kid to come to their side with the offer of family? This is the EXACT SAME STORY they told with Cora and Regina! The exact same! Oy!

The backstory for the Black Fairy doesn't exactly line up with what I heard before (didn't Blue say she didn't know why she became evil? Was she lying?), but I guess its not the worst retcon we have gotten this season. I was also pretty sure before this that the Dark Curse was created by Mal, but I guess it was a weirdly elaborate plan by Fiona to get rid of all children from their world so none of them would kill baby Rumple? So then why did the Dark Curse take everyone later, instead of just the kids? Do all the fairies know about the Land Without Magic? Why do they have the Shears of Fate just laying around in a tool drawer? How does she have so much power? Why does she keep stealing children? Did she just become EVIL by then? This whole backstory doesn't explain everything, it just raises further questions!

So I guess Malcolm was a good guy before he lost his wife, which just adds him to the never ending line of "my significant other died so I became a total asshole and took it out on innocent people" assholes we have on television. I honestly don't know if this backstory makes him more of an asshole, or less. I guess this did actually allow him to feel a bit bad for Rumple again, at least kid Rumple. Thanks to stupid prophesy's and his selfish, magic parents, he never had a chance. I also guess the fairies never checked on him after this, and saw that his dad entered a never ending mid life crisis and dumped him. No wonder he hates fairies.

Zelena hitting the Black Fairy with a car was absolutely the highlight of the episode. Why haven't more villains been run over by cars? I can totally get behind this development if it becomes a reoccurring element! She got some good laughs this week (if these swedes can best me...), but I do wonder when she and Regina became BFFs all of the sudden. I know she made a bit of a breakthrough last week and Regina was proud of her, but still.

Thank you, Hook, for being the only person who actually acts prepared when an evil being who can shape shift is running around! This is why your my favorite. You know, with the wedding coming up tomorrow, it would be nice to see Hook and Emma actually talking about their freaking wedding! We had Snow and Charming talk about it, and Hook and Henry, but not the actual two people getting married! Just throw us a flippin bone here!

[Shanna Marie]

The more I think about this episode, the less sense it makes.

Wasn't Rumple surprised that Emma had magic powers? But here it seems to be taken as a given that Saviors have powerful light magic and are doomed to die saving others in the Final Battle. Rumple knew about the Final Battle, so wouldn't he have known about the magic?

If the Black Fairy's goal all along was to save her son and be reunited as a family, why did she seem to be out to get her son? She was nasty to him in the other flashback we saw, and then she stole her son's son. Now that she is united with her family, why does she still want the Final Battle? Because prophecy? Does she have some other goal in mind? Does she have some other reason to want to kill Emma? And isn't she kind of weak sauce for the Ultimate Evil? She turned dark because she was going to cast the Dark Curse in a misguided attempt to alter her son's fate, but the most we've seen her do is steal babies to use for slave labor (which makes little sense -- that's a lot of time spent when they're utterly useless for labor and require a lot of labor to look after them). How she she more dark and evil than the person who actually cast the Dark Curse as a way of getting revenge for something someone did unknowingly as a child and who has slaughtered villages?

I just feel like if we're building to a Final Battle that deserves capital letters, it should be against a long-term foe or maybe a group of foes, and the stakes should be a lot higher, like the fate of civilization. The Final Battle should be more than "I guess we have to do this because prophecy," where Emma's fighting more or less to save herself because she has to and her enemy is fighting because someone told her she would. If there are more stakes than that, we should know them by now. The Final Battle should be end-of-the-world stuff, but it seems like the only person really affected is Emma.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well I just nearly quit watching altogether when Tiger and Blue showed up and announced baby Rumple was The Savior.  Of course he was....

*head-desk head-desk head-desk* 

After that nothing was surprising - that Black became Black because she was trying to protect Rumple.  That she stole babies trying to find him.  (Kudos to those here who called that.)  That Malcolm blamed the innocent itty bitty baby for his wife's 'death'.  That Rumple 'somehow always knew' about his mother (even though he was an infant when it happened - that Savior thing must come with hella good cognitive skills).  That Rumple lied to Gideon, Belle, Emma et. al.  blah, blah, blah.  

I actually thought it was nice that Hook asked Henry to be his best man - it's kind of like asking the sister of your future husband to be a bridesmaid.  It's just nice and never hurts to build good will.  He's a cutie-pie with his sea-faring man superstitions!  The bright spot in this episode for sure.  

[Arnella]

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Emma's wedding is going to be destroyed. One more thing to be ruined in her life by the Stiltskin clan. Oh and then she's fated to die. It's good to be the Saviour.

That's right.  Emma is the writer's punching bag while Regina gets all the things she should have. 

Regina gets to rape Graham for 30 years but when he falls for Emma, she doesn't even get to have one (consensual) night with him.

Princess Emma doesn't get any balls or ball gowns but when she gets to go to her first one in Camelot, her own father gives the first dance to Regina.

Emma might survive all this but it's Killian I worry about because killing him and denying Emma her happy romantic ending would be par for the course with these guys.

[kili]

It looked to me like Gideon was side-eyeing Rumple. He's lived with the Black Fairy enough to see through the half-truths and side-slip answers Rumple was giving. He wasn't buying that Grandma was dead. I think Gideon may be smarter than his mom. "I knew you were always good!" Seriously, Belle? She's totally a case-study.

Attachment to power seems to run in the Stiltskin family.  

Blue is shady. She should have revealed some of those secrets earlier. I don't see how her keeping the secret of what actually happened to Rumple's mom helped anybody. She lied to Malcolm which helped set him on a path of destruction. She could have given the townspeople more of an insight into Pan (no wonder Pan's shadow went for her early). She could have given Rumple more of his backstory which may have helped him deal with life (or at least been there when he was abandoned by his father).  She could have done something about those stupid ogres. She could have revealed the truth to Bae. It's like after the "Savior" fate was snipped, she washed her hands of any responsibility for Rumple. Her motives make no sense.

I have to kind of laugh about Rumple's terrible name. It's a "I Hate You" name. Baby Rumple didn't deserve that, but adult one does. How do Tiger Lily and Blue witness Malcolm give his child a "I Hate You" name and the other things he say and just leave the baby with this clearly disturbed man? I thought they were supposed to protect babies?

Rumple's Mom cut his fate to being a Savior, but did she cut his fate in dying in the final battle with evil? I think the fact that Henry can't write that "Emma wins the final battle" is because she doesn't win it. Rumple is fated to win it and die trying. Gideon will make him do the right thing.

That is one seriously ugly car that Regina found Zelena. Couldn't she have magicked it into something a little less hideous? I do like that the key chain was a monkey and that visual of her running over the Black Fairy was awesome.

Quote

I was also pretty sure before this that the Dark Curse was created by Mal,

Nope. Mal only temporarily possessed it. Regina had it and traded it with Mal for a sleeping curse. When Charming broke the sleeping curse, Regina came back and stole the curse back from Mal. Rumple gave Regina the curse that he had stolen from Cherbourg (by using Mal, Cruella and Ursulla as a distraction). How Cherbourg came to be guarding the curse may be the subject of some future retcon.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

That scene doesn't contradict Rumpel making her the Saviour. He used her parents' True Love to create a safety valve. She is the product of that True Love and that's why he was able to take advantage of who she is. He didn't control her actions or choices, that was all her. He simply used what made her powerful to make her the curse breaker.

The show has been inconsistent as to why Emma's the Savior. She's also said to her parents, "I'm only the Savior because you altered the fabric of my being" by transferring her darkness to Lilith.

You know whom I'm really angry at? That self-fulfilling prophecy.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, hockeycat400 said:

I think I have savior whiplash.  Emma!  Rumple!  Emma!   Rumple?  Emma?

Aladdin?!

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

- No one knows exactly. Just that her heart blackened and she stopped defending the children that she was meant to protect. She started stealing them instead. 

This reeks of last minute changes - maybe when they were told to wrap things up?  But then, I thought the episodes were usually written and filmed well in advance of when they air?  I don't - but this is even worse than a retcon.  It really makes no sense.  

Speaking of Blue - I thought she woke up last week when Emma crushed the fairy crystal over her?  And since I have no desire to rewatch that right now (must wait for tonight, see below.) does someone else remember?

7 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I guess Rumple is a child of Twu Wuv too.

Well, Malcolm did say that Fiona was the 'love of his life' - before he sentenced the child of the love of his life to have a name like Rumpelstiltskin.  

I totally forgot about The Final Battle™ Drinking Game while watching this episode, so I might have to watch it again tonight when I get home and am better prepared. 

[kili]

Quote

You know whom I'm really angry at? That self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just think...if Blue/Tiger Lily hadn't revealed that Rumple was going to have to fight evil in the final battle, Fiona wouldn't have gone nutso trying to stop it. Considering all the things Blue would go on to keep secret, why couldn't they shut their yaps about that one little thing?

I suspect that Blue knew all along it was Fiona that Rumple would have to fight. She too conveniently arrived to save the heart.

[Daisy]

So... what turned Fiona into the Greatest Evil? 
Like - so great she creates fields of pixie flowers, evil? 
 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 I also guess the fairies never checked on him after this, and saw that his dad entered a never ending mid life crisis and dumped him. No wonder he hates fairies.

Indeed. Tiger Lily, who was supposed to be his fairy godmother, de-winged herself and exiled herself to Neverland. How useful.

From the Previously TV article: As I've said before, I've given up on trying to make sense of which protection spells are in place where, and there was talk this week of Zelena running away to New York if the Final Battle goes south, so I clearly missed something about them being able to leave town now.

It was in "Awake". Regina said that she had reversed all of the Evil Queen's spells, including the one on the town line, except the sleeping curse.

[adam807]

"No, I mean, it's just, like...if some oracle told you you were going to kill your father and marry your mother, wouldn't you just never kill anybody and stay single? And then, if you did inadvertently kill somebody, in the heat of the moment or something, and later started dating, wouldn't you be smart enough to, like, avoid older women?  I mean, to me the moral of that story is not 'your destiny awaits you.'  To me it's...you know...'Do the Fucking Math.'"

-Richard Greenberg, Three Days of Rain

[JonasArm]

Hypocritical Regina is back! After all this circus about stopping Zelena from facing the Black Fairy (at least Zelena meant it to be a sneak attack). She now chooses to face the BF on her own and of course she gets her ass kicked until Z appears.

[adam807]

1 minute ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

It was in "Awake". Regina said that she had reversed all of the Evil Queen's spells, including the one on the town line, except the sleeping curse.

Right, thank you. I think I even mentioned that in the write-up at the time and then promptly forgot it. I think I've always been confused by the whole question of Storybrooke relates to the real world. For a long time it was hidden away, and no one could come or go at all. Then so many barriers up and down and dwarves turning into trees. Can they order from Ikea and get UPS deliveries now? Do they vote in Federal elections? I know it's a dumb thing to harp on but it feels like it hasn't been given much thought, and it's one of those things where to suspend my disbelief I need to know what the rules are. "There's a magical bubble over this town" was stupid, but it's clear and it makes sense.

[kili]

Quote

Can they order from Ikea and get UPS deliveries now?

Back in Season 1, when the curse was doing its best to hide Storybrooke, the mail always seemed to be an exception. Henry was able to use a stolen credit card to purchase a service over the internet to find Emma. So, that credit card must have had some real-world traction to support that. Further, Katherine received a letter accepting her into a university in Boston.  I guess the US Postal Service is not stopped by rain, sleet, snow or curses.

In this episode, Fiona is given the option of losing her newly acquired magic in order to prevent having to battle him in the future. She decides to de-magic him instead and keep her power. Zelena faced a similar choice last week - she had to give up her power in order to save the town and her child. She chose to give up her powers - powers that she has had all of her life (so they were a part of her) in order to save others.

I don't know why Zelena is constantly portrayed as one of the bad guys, yet she is the one who sacrificed her powers and her true love for the greater good. She's one of the few to do so.

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, whenever anyone, especially in a magical land, hears a prophesy, they should just chuck it in the nearest furnace. The damn things are way more trouble than they're worth, and cause more problems than solve them.

Speaking of dumb, Belle is just such an idiot, I cant even describe her levels of naiveté and idiocy. The woman is either stupid or an enabler, and neither one looks good on her. At this point, I'm leaning towards just stupid though. Who cares if Rumple was born a Savior? He is still a bad guy who has done endless terrible things, and has used and manipulated her a million times, and she just keeps saying "there's good in him!" over and over, when that should mean nothing! Yeah, there is good in him, but there's good in just about everyone on the planet, and that doesn't make everyone a good person who should be forgiven everything. I'm sure Charles Manson had good in him somewhere, but who cares, because that sliver of good was overridden by a shit ton of pure evil! Rumple is a bad guy, and she needs to just deal with that. I do think he loves her and his sons, but he loves his power more, and he has proven that 100 times already. You know, I would have a little more respect for Belle if she just admitted that she was drawn to Rumples dark side, and accepted him for that darkness. Instead she always acts like she is ignoring his obvious darkness to concentrate on those tiny scraps of that, and it just makes her seem like a rather pathetic doormat. Its sad that a woman who started as a character longing for adventure and to be taken seriously is now just the lied to and protected Wife of Rumple, who he lies to and basically treats like a child who needs protecting, instead of a romantic partner.

[Daisy]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 You know, I would have a little more respect for Belle if she just admitted that she was drawn to Rumples dark side, and accepted him for that darkness. Instead she always acts like she is ignoring his obvious darkness to concentrate on those tiny scraps of that, and it just makes her seem like a rather pathetic doormat. Its sad that a woman who started as a character longing for adventure and to be taken seriously is now just the lied to and protected Wife of Rumple, who he lies to and basically treats like a child who needs protecting, instead of a romantic partner.

 

I have said this. so many times. just own it, Belle. 

[zumpie]

I loathe Henry as much as anyone, but it really isn't weird for someone to include their step-child to be in the wedding party, in fact it's pretty standard and a sweet gesture. We all know Young Surly probably felt he SHOULD be the one walking his mommy down the aisle, so this makes for a very nice gesture and symbolizes their bond.

Additionally, not sure where Smee is (probably the actor's unavailable), but Hook's other good friends:

His BFF/other TL already has aisle walking duty (that he's been dreaming of since 4EVAH, BTW)

His other good friend is dead (Robin Hood)

His beloved brother, Liam 1.0, is dead

His nu bro, Liam 2.0 is stuck in the EF

His nu-dad, Nemo is there, too.

Aladdin's busy with Jazzy

So basically, except for maybe the dwarfs, every SB Dude is already occupied

[KingOfHearts]

Fiona is nothing more than a "fill in all the blanks" plot device character. She is Rumple's mother, but since she's just a redux of Pan and Rumple, that's unnecessary. She created the Dark Curse, but as part of a nonsensical plan to save her son, not devastate an entire population. And finally, she's the freaking Black Fairy. An opportunity to see the underside of fairydom was botched up to woobify Rumple even more. The continuity we've seen in the show up to this point doesn't even line up.

The writers tried to accomplish so many things with just one character, and that's been an ongoing problem for a while. Even their main characters tend to have too many facets.

Edited May 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[iMonrey]

Quote

This show is really bad at maintaining its continuity, but that was a huge moment/plot point in the finale, so ignoring it is really, really stupid. Note that Rumpel created the curse and made Emma the Saviour.

I don't understand why the show keeps doing this. Either the writers really, really stink at maintaining continuity, or they just don't care, or they think we're too stupid to notice. None of those things is excusable. I also don't understand why they keep retconning why villains became villains. Seemingly, every one of them started out as virtuous with pure intentions and then just took a wrong turn somewhere. Can't anyone ever just be an asshole by nature?

[tennisgurl]

23 minutes ago, XrystalPond said:

I love that Hook is old fashioned and superstitious.

I really love that too. His nautical traditions and superstitions are super endearing, and make him a more unique character. Ironically, considering he's one of the few characters who only has memories of magic worlds and not of modern day America, he tends to be the character who combines the modern with the old the most, which I really enjoy. He is all about Emma being an independent woman and he wants to learn about phones and Netflix, but he also thinks its unlucky to see the bride before the wedding, and wants to get married on his boat. It just makes him a more fun and interesting character.

[kili]

Quote

This show is really bad at maintaining its continuity, but that was a huge moment/plot point in the finale, so ignoring it is really, really stupid. Note that Rumpel created the curse and made Emma the Saviour.

Rumple stole the dark curse from Cherbourg. He modified the curse to give it a safety valve of a savior (and few other tweaks), but he has not been credited as the original author for quite some time. The retcon happened during the Ursula/Cruella/Mal arc.

What is odd is that Fiona was creating a curse to take them to a land without magic - would she have sent Rumple there without her? Not five minutes after her plan to cast the curse is thwarted does she refuse to lose her magic.

[adam807]

17 minutes ago, kili said:

What is odd is that Fiona was creating a curse to take them to a land without magic - would she have sent Rumple there without her? Not five minutes after her plan to cast the curse is thwarted does she refuse to lose her magic.

While this doesn't hold with how we've seen the curse actually work (but when has consistency been their strong suit?) I believe the goal was to send all the OTHER babies born that winter away, since she believed one of them was meant to kill Rumple. The two of them would have stayed put. 

[Inquirer]

50 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Seemingly, every one of them started out as virtuous with pure intentions and then just took a wrong turn somewhere. Can't anyone ever just be an asshole by nature?

I responded to this train of thought in the Seasons thread.  It's good to have "just assholes" sometimes, but too many of them would not work anymore than having too many villains who started out with pure intentions.  (Also, we have had some villains who were "just assholes", like Cruella.)

Edited May 1, 2017 by Inquirer

[Daisy]

46 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Fiona is nothing more than a "fill in all the blanks" plot device character. She is Rumple's mother, but since she's just a redux of Pan and Rumple, that's unnecessary. She created the Dark Curse, but as part of a nonsensical plan to save her son, not devastate an entire population. And finally, she's the freaking Black Fairy. An opportunity to see the underside of fairydom was botched up to woobify Rumple even more. The continuity we've seen in the show up to this point doesn't even line up.

The writers tried to accomplish so many things with just one character, and that's been an ongoing problem for a while. Even their main characters tend to have too many facets.

I think I said this when they showed that Gidiot had his heart stolen. This show refuses to have the balls - to commit to something really deep. I think the only time they did was Pan. Pan was evil. There was no redemption coming for him. There was no "I really wish i could have changed things." on him. There was no "Please. forgive me." from him (and if there is I am willfully ignoring it). 

The man was a mean drunk cheating coward who sorta-kinda-loved his son. They go to neverland, and then he is faced with the decision - have my kid, or have my freedom. Chooses freedom. Turns evil somehow (I can't remember now) but like embraces it. And that was awesome. (Oh I'm a Liar. Cruella was gleefully evil, and didn't mind murdering anyone (if she could), and there was no faux redemption here either). 

Now you have the Ultimate Evil here. Mrs. Black Fairy. You could have done this like there was some kind of Fairy War (and this is why Tiger Lily gave up her wings), Blue vs. Black. (#BruiseWar!) But no. Black is just a mother who only wanted to save her son. Pity her! Gidiot is only doing what he was told because he was HeartControlled. 

The main problem i have in Doctor Who is that there is zero consequences. You can do whatever, and press the magic button and it's all erased, everyone lives. That's happening here. You're evil but it's okay, your mom/dad ditched you and no one loved you, but we'll love you once we smacked you around, and we'll have a big emotional sacrifice which no one sacrificed anything really, except Emma and she'll never talk about it anyway so who cares about it. Wanna go to Grannies?

[KingOfHearts]

4 minutes ago, Daisy said:

The main problem i have in Doctor Who is that there is zero consequences. You can do whatever, and press the magic button and it's all erased, everyone lives. That's happening here. You're evil but it's okay, your mom/dad ditched you and no one loved you, but we'll love you once we smacked you around, and we'll have a big emotional sacrifice which no one sacrificed anything really, except Emma and she'll never talk about it anyway so who cares about it. Wanna go to Grannies?

And what exactly is stopping the Black Fairy from just sitting down at Granny's with Rumple, Belle, and Gideon? If all she wants is to be a big happy family, then what's with all the "killing Emma" business? Oh that's right. This big prophecy that means nothing because the Fate Shears could change it in an instant. Fiona is just evil because we need an antagonist. It's a Stiltskin family tradition - even when it's obviously stupid, go the dark route. Are the characters the dark magic addicts, or are the writers?

Edited May 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Daisy]

9 minutes ago, adam807 said:

While this doesn't hold with how we've seen the curse actually work (but when has consistency been their strong suit?) I believe the goal was to send all the OTHER babies born that winter away, since she believed one of them was meant to kill Rumple. The two of them would have stayed put. 

 

Which was stupid. because just earlier they realised that they checked every baby born that winter and no one had the crescent moon mark. And that day was the last day of winter. Rumple was safe.

I do think though every baby was going through that portal/curse Fiona was creating. that's what made Tiger Lily so horrified. But yah. Fiona would have zero power in land without magic but I guess she was thinking no magic, no saviour power, no death. 

[Inquirer]

6 minutes ago, Daisy said:

There was no "I really wish i could have changed things." on him. There was no "Please. forgive me." from him (and if there is I am willfully ignoring it). 

No, there was, a few times...it's just that literally every time it was then shown that he was full of shit and it was pure manipulation on his part.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Inquirer

[Daisy]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

And what exactly is stopping the Black Fairy from just sitting down at Granny's with Rumple, Belle, and Gideon? If all she wants is to be a big happy family, then what's with all the "killing Emma" business? Oh that's right. This big prophecy that means nothing because the Fate Shears could change it in an instant.

Exactly? 
Why is Fiona wanting to kill Emma? 
because she's a saviour and there's a big battle a comming?

THEN DON'T PROVOKE EMMA AND CAUSE THE FINAL BATTLE. Like crap. 
Emma's only reacting to this - because Black Fairy sent Gidiot after her. Don't provoke Emma, No need to fight. 
Fiona wants Rumple. Show him the memories, and give Gidiot back his heart, and like you said, be one big "Goodnight Rumple, Goodnight Belle" family. like you want. 

Honestly at this point I'm surprised Granny hasn't found these scissors and snipped everyone's destiny while they slept. 

Just now, Inquirer said:

No, there was, a few times...it's just that literally every time it was then shown that he was full of shit and it was pure manipulation on his part.

Man. I miss Pan. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Which was stupid. because just earlier they realised that they checked every baby born that winter and no one had the crescent moon mark. And that day was the last day of winter. Rumple was safe.

I do think though every baby was going through that portal/curse Fiona was creating. that's what made Tiger Lily so horrified. But yah. Fiona would have zero power in land without magic but I guess she was thinking no magic, no saviour power, no death. 

Maybe she thought they must have missed one? Fairies don't know everything, after all. Or that it must be one of them even if none of them had the crescent mark?

I doubt she was sending Rumple or herself away, and we saw later in the same scene that she wasn't willing to give up her magic for him. The very fact that baby Rumple was in the center of Vault while they were working on the curse suggests to me that the curse was being designed with a Rumple exception clause.

3 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Honestly at this point I'm surprised Granny hasn't found these scissors and snipped everyone's destiny while they slept. 

Hah hah hah, that's hilarious and she totally would/should.

[Inquirer]

12 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Man. I miss Pan. 

Me too.  His moments of "regret" and asking for forgiveness literally went like this:

Pan: I'm sorry, Rumple. Forgive me, and let's start over as a family. And I'm not just saying this because I need to distract you while I swap Pandora's Box with a fake and trap you in the real one for all eternity. 
Rumple: No!
Pan: Just as well, because I was actually distracting you so that I could swap Pandora's Box with a fake and trap you in the real one for all eternity. *does so and smirks about it*

Pan: I'm sorry, Rumple. Forgive me, and let's start over as a family.  And I'm not just saying this because you're about to kill me, truly!
Rumple: No! *kills Pan and himself*
Pan: Goddamn it!

Pan: I'm sorry, Rumple. Forgive me, and let's start over as a family.  And I'm not just saying this so that you'll let me out of the Underworld.
Rumple: No!
Pan: All right, you little shit, then I'll condemn you and your pregnant wife to stay here for all eternity unless you go get me a goddamn heart that I need to leave the Underworld! 

Pan was self-centered to the core and incredibly ruthless, and he was also so charismatic in the process.  Also, speaking of the Underworld, I think that Hades also falls into the same category you put Pan and Cruella in.  He claimed to have a sob story to Zelena about Zeus stopping his heart, but in the end the only reason Zeus stopped his heart, after Hades killed their father for power, was to limit his powers and because his full-feeling heart made him more sadistic and enjoying of doing evil!  Just like with Pan and Cruella, there was no redemption for him, his love for Zelena was not enough.

Jafar on OUATIW was another good case of irredeemable villainy, and he actually had a sob story!

Edited May 1, 2017 by Inquirer

[Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

Me too.  His moments of "regret" and asking for forgiveness literally went like this:

Pan: I'm sorry, Rumple. Forgive me, and let's start over as a family. And I'm not just saying this because I need to distract you while I swap Pandora's Box with a fake and trap you in the real one for all eternity. 
Rumple: No!
Pan: Just as well, because I was actually distracting you so that I could swap Pandora's Box with a fake and trap you in the real one for all eternity. *does so and smirks about it*

Pan: I'm sorry, Rumple. Forgive me, and let's start over as a family.  And I'm not just saying this because you're about to kill me, truly!
Rumple: No! *kills Pan and himself*
Pan: Goddamn it!

Pan: I'm sorry, Rumple. Forgive me, and let's start over as a family.  And I'm not just saying this so that you'll let me out of the Underworld.
Rumple: No!
Pan: All right, you little shit, then I'll condemn you and your pregnant wife to stay here for all eternity unless you go get me a goddamn heart that I need to leave the Underworld! 

Pan was self-centered to the core and incredibly ruthless, and he was also so charismatic in the process.  Also, speaking of the Underworld, I think that Hades also falls into the same category you put Pan and Cruella in.  He claimed to have a sob story to Zelena about Zeus stopping his heart, but in the end the only reason Zeus stopped his heart, after Hades killed their father for power, was to limit his powers and because his full-feeling heart made him more sadistic and enjoying of doing evil!  Just like with Pan and Cruella, there was no redemption for him, his love for Zelena was not enough.

(giggles) that sums it up. 

And yes I forgot about Hades (probably because I hated the Underworld storyline so i blocked it out). but yah. in Six seasons you had
Regina (woobified), Cora (woobified) Tamara/Greg (ignored an amazing plot point + boring), Pan (amazingly awesome), Zelena (boring) Ingrid (interestingly complex), Queens of Darkness  of Mal (boring), Ursula (boring) Cruella (amazingly awesome), Authur (boring), Arthur/Nimue/Rumple (stupid, boring, and just tired). Hades (awesome due to zero redemption factor),  Jekyll/Hyde (not done properly) Evil Queen (complete. waste. of. time.) and now Gidiot + Boring Fairy.  

It just drives me nuts. if you're gonna do this big horrendous evil. do it. commit to it. Don't fall in love with the actor and go "well crap we need to completely make them milquetoast) 

[Souris]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The more I think about this episode, the less sense it makes.

They should just "find Nimue." That will fix everything.

[Blue Plastic]

At least they didn't have the fairies wearing those awful bubble dresses like they used to.

i actually somewhat liked the Baby Rumple backstory but there's been so much retconning. Whatever, TSTW.

What I found interesting was that Fiona probably wouldn't have done any of that eeeee-vil stuff if the fairies had just left her alone!  They drove her crazy!  Never thought I'd empathize with her. They had the audacity to come into her hovel saying, "Great news!  Your son is destined to be a hero and is gonna die saving others!  Yippee!"  Probably not something a hormonal new mother wants to hear!  Then they banish her and give her baby son back to his already warped dad Peter Pan, who states in front of them that he hates the child!  These fairies are seriously sleazy. No wonder Tiger Lily wanted to leave the fold.

Loved Zelena running over the Black Fairy!  Hilarious but BF wasn't hurt so not sure why she left.

Hey Snow, I bet wardrobe could at least rustle up some earrings to balance your pixie cut!

Zelena said all she knows how to drive is a broom, but she also knows how to drive a tornado, hee.

[maryle]

I don't know what to think about this one. I am exhausted! 

I will say R. C was very good to night and I definitely prefer his darker personna than when he become more soapy or teary I bought him less in those scene.

The actress portraying the BF is probably the strongest villain acting wise since a bail.

But, for judging all the Rumple was the Savior I need to see the following episode particularly the final battle.

Won't love this twist if it is just to sidelines Emma to have a central role. Because yeah! It could be Rumple swan song but it can also be Emma Swan and they always promote her importance before give all the big moment to others characters.

So, for I will wait to see if Rumple and Emma have similar relevance in the final battle. Narratively she should be closing her journey as Savior just like Rumple.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Man. I miss Pan. 

I don't. At this point we have over-dosed on villains. This show is so obsessed with villains and delving into their psyches that it ignores the other characters. We never get any meaningful scenes with Emma and her parents or Emma and Hook, everything seems to happen off screen and even if they're together all they do is talk about the latest villain and how they're going to defeat them. I don't see how A&E don't understand how stale the formula is and how frustrated the viewers are with it.