S05.E07: The Committee on Human Rights

[Eulipian 5k]

46 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think Philip will be able to help with any damage control needed and play it down as just girl/teen drama. Philip can help Stan remember how strange, mysterious, and baffling girls were to them at that age.  

God yes! Though, how would Phillip know? Wasn't he in Soviet Spy School at that age?

[Sarah 103]

8 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

God yes! Though, how would Phillip know? Wasn't he in Soviet Spy School at that age?

I'm guessing part of his training for this mission was learning a great deal about American culture/customs, including the high school experience. It's possible that teenage girls are a total mystery to teenage boys in most cultures/countries.  

Also, your comment makes me want a prequel series titled "Soviet Spy School" about Philip learning to be a spy.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Sarah 103

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

God yes! Though, how would Phillip know? Wasn't he in Soviet Spy School at that age?

LOL. Well, his teenage girl dumped him because she met someone else. Except later it turned out she lied and had a secret baby while becoming an international spy herself and then she told Philip about him as some enticement to run away with her and she got arrested and told the KGB about the kid and then they used him to pressure Philip and then sent the kid on a scavenger hunt to find his father.

Yup, if there's anyone who knows anything about strange, mysterious and baffling girls it's Philip.

[Eulipian 5k]

4 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

makes me want a prequel series titled "Soviet Spy School" about Philip learning to be a spy.

• Suitcase Stuffing for Seniors 101
• Wig Wearing Seminars
• Advanced Honey Trapping

All taught by Professor Tuan!

[Erin9]

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

This is why I'm enjoying watching Philip flail with her. Deirdre is really outside the norm for him, and he doesn't know how to work her. MR's expressions with her are priceless.

I also appreciate that Deirdre isn't being shown as some desperate, emotionally needy single woman. She's something of an odd duck, but she's living her life the way she wants to.

These scenes have provided some nice light moments, some of the funniest of this show imo. Watching Philip try to respond to her blunt/pointed comments has been priceless. She's been quite a switch from Martha or even most women in general. More of this and less of Ben would have been better. 

I assume the wheat plot is over though. So, I guess that was it. 

[Umbelina]

I wonder if Mathew will mention Paige's sudden Ninja skills at deftly shoving him clear across the room to Stan?

I think Philip has thought about defecting, and it's obvious that Elizabeth knows that's what he wants to do.  She's brought it up a few times herself, he talked about the money and just being normal several times.  He's switched it a bit lately to going back to Russia, but Elizabeth knows he would prefer America and so does he.  God knows the kids would!

Philip hates this job, hates the lies, can't stand what he's doing to Paige, and if Elizabeth wasn't in the picture he would have defected long, long ago.  He doesn't stay out of patriotism or believing in their cause.  He could believe in better conditions for people of the world and still be an American and work for that.  His memories of home absolutely suck, starving, sad parents, growing up to kill boys that beat him and stole from him, graduating to having his boss at the rake factory try to rip him off and not pay his full salary. 

I'm sure he was happy in spy school, other than the sex training, it must have been like heaven to that kid.

He only continues to do this for one reason.  Elizabeth.  Not himself, he's miserable all the time, he feels like shit all the time, as he's been saying for seasons now.  Not for his kids, Paige is a mess, life ruined, he barely knows his son.  For Elizabeth.  Because SHE wants this.  No one else.

Oh, and I agree, the KGB would kill Paige in a heartbeat if she is perceived as a threat.  Philip too.  I'm pretty sure the only one they are marginally happy with right now is compliant fanatic Elizabeth.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Umbelina

[NitneLiun]

6 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Me too! I thought that's why Stan paused the movie, he was thinking about it. Maybe he was and it will come up again?

I doubt that Stan caught it unless he was a graduate of the University of Indiana.

I went to grad school at a Big Ten university (not Indiana).  It's hard to remember among Indiana, Iowa and Illinois which schools are referred to as IU or U of I.

It's kind of like trying to remember that the University of Kansas is KU and the University of Kentucky is UK.

[Eulipian 5k]

Phillip must know that if he defects he will have to confess to murdering innocent citizens, plus military personnel, and FBI agents. That won't get him witness protection at a Cinnabon in Omaha, that'll put him in Federal Pen for life.

[NitneLiun]

Just now, Eulipian 5k said:

Phillip must know that if he defects he will have to confess to murdering innocent citizens, plus military personnel, and FBI agents. That won't get him witness protection at a Cinnabon in Omaha, that'll put him in Federal Pen for life.

You might be surprised. It largely depends on the amount and quality of information that he'd be able to give to the U.S.  Also, if he worked as a double-agent, he could cut a pretty sweet deal with CIA and DoJ.

Some of the people we flipped during the Cold War make Phillip look like a choir boy.

[Mrs peel]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 10:51 PM, MissBluxom said:

In hindsight, wouldn't it have been better for P & E to have told Paige something close to what they did but agreed to have "distorted" the main facts? For example, they could have told her they worked in espionage but for some other country - maybe some Eastern European country. In that way, if the unthinkable were ever to happen, Paige could never tell anyone anything that would check out. She could blab everything she knew and none of it would ever check out.

Instead of "wheat", they could have told her they were investigating a plot to damage computerized automobile ignition systems. Then, if she ever decides that she just has to come clean with her pastor, they both would just be left holding a big bag of air.

I know this probably sounds like a "childish" kind of approach to prevention. But, given they were determined to tell Paige something that was essentially the truth, couldn't they have made a few "adjustments" to the truth that would have given them a chance to get out of the country before they got life in prison?

I wonder this too, as I wondered why Philip went from he was in internal affairs to a Russian spy with Martha.  Say he was working for a friendly government (Mossad anyone?).  The USSR was a huge enemy at the time.

I'm also wondering how both parents seem to be missing that Paige is on the edge, mentally.  Heck, Pastor Tim learned more about her in a brief conversation, though I don't know why they didn't have him suggest more prayer (when Paige said she wasn't praying much).  She is losing track of the things that matter to her.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, NitneLiun said:

Also, if he worked as a double-agent, he could cut a pretty sweet deal with CIA and DoJ.

In that case he's not even getting out at all, just putting himself and his family in even more danger. 

2 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

I'm also wondering how both parents seem to be missing that Paige is on the edge, mentally.  Heck, Pastor Tim learned more about her in a brief conversation, though I don't know why they didn't have him suggest more prayer (when Paige said she wasn't praying much).  She is losing track of the things that matter to her.

I don't think they're missing anything or that Pastor Tim learned that much from her from that conversation. She's been pretty open about what she's feeling with her parents. I think she's more re-evaluating what things matter to her and how much (by necessity) than losing track of them. 

[Blakeston]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm not so sure that's what happened. Gabriel didn't necessarily make this decision based on Paige's personality. He might just be saying that nobody should put their child into this life. We can see the many ways Paige seems a bad fit, but I don't know if that was the point Gabriel was making. You'd think he'd have considered that when Paige blew their cover.

I think it was a combination of Gabriel a) seeing that Paige isn't cut out for spycraft, and b) seeing firsthand that a child has been damaged by the life of lies the Center has thrust upon her. Both of which are tied to how Paige came across as timid and vulnerable and generally Eeyore-ish.

6 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

That leads me to a question I've been having for quite a while. The show picks up with the the kids as teens/pre-teens. At that age, you can leave a child alone for several hours, possibly an overnight. What did P&E do when Paige and Henry were smaller? Get babysitters all the time?

They implied in season one that P&E's crazy schedule was fairly new - that they had't been nearly as active until recently, when the Center requested that they step up their involvement.

(Even if they were 90% less active when the kids were little, though, that's still a hell of a lot of hours when they'd need babysitting.)

[Umbelina]

I took it as Gabe looking back at his own life of spying and murder and not wanting that for ANYONE else, let alone Paige, who he has known about since she was a baby, and in a way, his only family has been Philip and Elizabeth, so she is like a granddaughter to him in some ways.

It felt like he was saying "spying SUCKS!" and of course you shouldn't bring your daughter into the kind of life I've lead and you are leading.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if Mathew will mention Paige's sudden Ninja skills at deftly shoving him clear across the room to Stan?

IMO, it wasn't ninja skills so much as Matthew being caught off-guard. He was kind of grabby.

1 hour ago, NitneLiun said:

I went to grad school at a Big Ten university (not Indiana).  It's hard to remember among Indiana, Iowa and Illinois which schools are referred to as IU or U of I.

Another Big Ten grad alum (not Indiana). As I remember, IU was always Indiana (because the name of the school is Indiana University), and Iowa and Illinois weren't abbreviated, because U of I could mean either. Or both. But Indiana is never U of I.

Edited April 20, 2017 by dubbel zout

[jww]

University names are important. I spent 35 years at The University of Texas; our instate rival (until they joined the SEC), Texas A&M University hated the fact that we were THE University of Texas while they were only one of many universities in Texas and they would refer to us as Texas University. 

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Another Big Ten grad alum (not Indiana). As I remember, IU was always Indiana (because the name of the school is Indiana University), and Iowa and Illinois weren't abbreviated, because U of I could mean either. Or both. But Indiana is never U of I.

Longtime resident of Illinois, where U of I has always meant University of Illinois, IU is Indiana University and U of Iowa is simply Iowa.  Hearing Renee refer to Indiana as U of I was very jarring, and I don't even follow college sports.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/19/2017 at 5:59 AM, topanga said:

I thought people couldn't take plants through Customs. Or is that a recent thing?

My assumption, since he's carrying a product of espionage - however benign it seems - is that he was exfiltrated somewhat like Martha and wouldn't be going through customs anywhere.

On 4/19/2017 at 8:09 AM, chick binewski said:

I appreciate this show doesn't go for the dramatic boom every time but I have some trouble believing we've seen the last of Gabriel , possibly because I'm just such a fan of Langella in this role. He plays so stalwart & true yet I'm absolutely convinced he's playing Philip AND Elizabeth every time they're together. Gabriel relayed a much different review of Paige to Philip than he did to Elizabeth. Was that to warn Philip or to test him? To keep Elizabeth on course?

Thank you! As much as I love him, I have always felt the same thing.

On 4/19/2017 at 9:32 AM, Bannon said:

There isn't any reason to not wait, in my opinion, unless thay have some reason to think they are better at agricultural science than American agricultural companies. Given the relative agricultural production of the two societies, this is dubious in the extreme.

Well, their people are starving (or at least, supplies are limited) so maybe they think having the wheat a little earlier will help.

On 4/19/2017 at 0:27 PM, Umbelina said:

One section of wheat was thriving, the other sections were struggling.  That's how they knew which wheat to take.  That said, it's wheat growing by the side of the road, it's basically an experiment by a private company, and honestly, who would look twice at wheat growing in Kansas?

The wheat field they followed Ben to was in Mississippi - not Kansas. Bolivar county, IIRC. Which means they followed Ben a fair piece when he went up to Tennessee. (it's in western Mississippi).

 

On 4/19/2017 at 1:53 PM, tennisgurl said:

I thought the same thing! I grew up in Indiana and had lots of friends who went to IU and the completely unrelated U of I (University of Indianapolis) so it really stuck out to me. NOBODY would call IU Bloomington U of I, even someone who was just passing by. Mistake of the writers, or mistake of the character? Since the writers are usually so throughout, I have to think it was a mistake of the character. I'm not saying that makes her a spy, but the plot does thicken.

We believed this was the first hint that she may not be from one of the American agencies at all, and that maybe she is, in fact, KGB.

19 hours ago, Bannon said:

In a show where American actors play Soviets pretending to be Americans, I'm not going to care much about accents.

Especially when you have a Welshman playing a Soviet pretending to be an American.

2 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I doubt that Stan caught it unless he was a graduate of the University of Indiana.

If he likes sports - he'll know that it's IU instead of U of I. IIRC, Stan likes sports.

[tennisgurl]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Especially when you have a Welshman playing a Soviet pretending to be an American.

He`s a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude!

[stagmania]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

He`s a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude!

In fact, a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude playing MANY dudes!

When you stop and think about it, you really have to marvel at how incredibly talented Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell are, and how very much this show wouldn't work if they were anything less.

Edited April 20, 2017 by stagmania

[Erin9]

The thing about Paige is that no matter what P & E do there is really no fixing this situation for her:  She's going to have to find a way to live with it- no matter what the final solution turns out to be. It will be difficult regardless. 

Her parents could die. So, her family is destroyed. 

They could get caught and go to prison or be exchanged and returned home. Family is destroyed or relocated to what is a foreign country for her and Henry. 

They can opt to return home- looking increasingly unlikely- but same issue. Kids have to totally adapt. 

They can run or defect. That certainly means they'll be chased by the KGB, who will be ruthless if they're caught. Life as they know it is done- new home, school, church, new names, new background. Paige hates lying now? She'll get to lie about nearly EVERYTHING were that to happen. 

So, no matter what, Paige is going to have to learn to adapt. She wanted normal American parents. Not unreasonable, but that's not the reality and never will be. 

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Also, your comment makes me want a prequel series titled "Soviet Spy School" about Philip learning to be a spy.

This needs to happen.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

This needs to happen.

Quote

 

6 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Also, your comment makes me want a prequel series titled "Soviet Spy School" about Philip learning to be a spy.

 

Have you guys read the 1989 book THE CHARM SCHOOL?  It's basically all about that during the cold war.  I loved it.   It's kind of funny because at the time spies were saying this was all fiction, but I remember hearing/reading spies in the past few years saying things like this did exist there.   http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-446-51305-0

Alias did a riff on it too in a pretty good episode, no sex training and they were adults not kids, but still interesting.

Quote

 

4 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I doubt that Stan caught it unless he was a graduate of the University of Indiana.

 

Quote

If he likes sports - he'll know that it's IU instead of U of I. IIRC, Stan likes sports.   Clanstarling

Oh GREAT point!  She's supposed to be a sports freak too, so no way would she make that error if she was legit. 

Meanwhile, I was busy googling the quarry swimming hole to see if it was real.  It is, it's dangerous. 

Good catch everyone!

Edited April 21, 2017 by Umbelina
added stuff

[White Sheep]

Wait until Phillip founds out mischa was in mental facility and was in the USA. And granny wanted to whack him!!  Out come the black murder gloves. 

Could Stan new GF be working for the Mossad.  A few season ago. They know what Jennings look like. Find them in the USA.  Stan next door. Put an agent on Stan. 

Is phillip losing his sex appeal or is lotous lady just one cold fish??

No way any of the main character are committing suicide on this show. That too dark. Even for this show. 

Yes, this season been boring. But its leading up to the final season.  

How do you think Stan will found out and how will he react?  

[Haleth]

Ok, Stan's gf is a fraud. In addition to being played by the actress who played the despicable Andrea on The Walking Dead, no one, I mean NO ONE would call Indiana University "the U of I" while watching Breaking Away.  Sacrilege.

And Frank Langella needs an Emmy. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Haleth

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, White Sheep said:

Wait until Phillip founds out mischa was in mental facility and was in the USA. And granny wanted to whack him!!  Out come the black murder gloves. 

Or he won't find out any of those things. He could really never know about any of it ever.

I don't remember Claudia talking about whacking anybody, though. Not that she'd have hesitated if it was necessary, but I don't think she was pushing for it. She just didn't want them to meet.

9 minutes ago, White Sheep said:

Could Stan new GF be working for the Mossad.  A few season ago. They know what Jennings look like. Find them in the USA.  Stan next door. Put an agent on Stan. 

I don't understand this logic. If Mossad was looking for Philip and Elizabeth and found them they have no reason to sleep with their FBI neighbor. Apart from that, Stan doesn't seem to be doing anything that Mossad would be after.

[White Sheep]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They had to tell Paige in order to follow Center's orders.  Their only choice was to defect or tell, they were getting a lot of pressure, and while Philip would have been happy to defect, his (barf) true love Elizabeth wouldn't, so anything to keep her happy.  Running with 2 kids wasn't an option, Irina, as well trained as they, ran alone and was caught and killed by the KGB.

Yeah, I've been saying the pace is off all season, but in reading through all of this, it's not just that.  Everyone on screen is depressed, or with some that are depressed. 

So we are basically watching a bunch of depressed people non stop, if they aren't depressed themselves they are surrounded by depressed people.  Henry's not depressed, but his whole family is.  Aderholt isn't but he's stuck with depressed Stan. The Russian guy is happy as hell but his wife and kid are depressed.  Paige is even more depressed than this depressed child has been for seasons now, she's not even praying anymore.  Philip continues to be depressed.  Mathew isn't that depressed but he hangs with two depressed people, dad and Paige.  Gabe's depressed as fuck, depressed and sick of it all to the point of quitting.  Oleg's depressed, as are his parents, with their dead son.   The honey trap marks aren't really depressed either, but again, we only see them with Liz and Phil, and frankly, Liz is beginning to look depressed, probably from dealing with her depressed husband more than anything else.

So it's just a fucking downer of a season. 

In other seasons they mixed it up, and no, I'm not arguing for plot based stories alone, but they've been able to mix character and plot well before, throwing in humor and some normal/lighter moments as well.  This season?  We're basically watching people be depressed, and while that's realistic given everything we know?  It can be a drag to watch with no breaks, and very little action.

In reality many were given Indiana accents, but any American accent would be fine, so I honestly don't see the issue with Gabe.  Aside from that?  He is a handler, rarely running anyone anyway.  I can easily fan wank it to "he was trained by one of the super liberal NY people that flocked to Russia during the revolution and stayed."  REDS comes to mind.

 

Excellant point on the depressed people.   And the people who aren't depressed. Are clueless about the real situation happening around them. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by White Sheep

[Bretton]

People here have wondered if Oleg's Dad is not his actual biological father. I've wondered that, too. And here's the deal, with him investigating his mother's placement in a camp (remember the file he was looking at towards the end), could it be she was at the same camp where Philip's father worked as a guard? And since it's been insinuated that she "took care of" the guards in exchange for staying alive, is it possible, just possible, that the two story-lines will converge here? I've, at times, wondered if somehow these seemingly unconnected storylines may eventually arc towards each other in the end. This could be a way for that to happen.

[EtheltoTillie]

It is ridiculous how much time I spend on obsessing about this show!  I can't stop checking this forum.  It's as if the people were real.  

[SlovakPrincess]

Oh my, the look on Philip's face when Gabriel just casually mentioned "oh, and Paige should be left out of all of this" ... and left.  You just know Philip wanted to chase him down the stairs, like "but how do I get her out of it now??!!"  

Gabriel talking with Philip about the grim days of (I assume) Stalin's purges was a great bit of subtle acting.  I'll miss the actor.

How and why have they managed to make Paige's story arc so boring?  I like her, I like the actress, but when all she's given to play (episode after episode after episode) is sad, worried but ultimately meekly accepting of the garbage her parents are selling her ... gah.  It's like she's been sad and broken since Elizabeth yelled at her that she had to keep an eye on Pastor Tim from now on "because of what you did!"  And that might actually make sense, but that doesn't actually seem to be the story the show is going with?    Please let her find out next week that her parents were lying about the wheat, so she can get good and angry.  

Elizabeth getting all jealous about Ben and his blonde date cracked me up.  

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Have you guys read the 1989 book THE CHARM SCHOOL?  It's basically all about that during the cold war.  I loved it. 

Yes, I read that years ago, a very good book!  I'm a big fan of DeMille, and I'll have to dig it out and give it another read.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Moose135

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bretton said:

People here have wondered if Oleg's Dad is not his actual biological father. I've wondered that, too. And here's the deal, with him investigating his mother's placement in a camp (remember the file he was looking at towards the end), could it be she was at the same camp where Philip's father worked as a guard? And since it's been insinuated that she "took care of" the guards in exchange for staying alive, is it possible, just possible, that the two story-lines will converge here? I've, at times, wondered if somehow these seemingly unconnected storylines may eventually arc towards each other in the end. This could be a way for that to happen.

That wouldn't really bring together storylines. It would just say that two characters who have nothing to do with each other are biologically related in a totally unlikely way that probably would not be detailed in the woman's prison file. Philip is from Tobolsk. The camp in the file mentioned Kransk. There were many camps and millions of nobodies who suffered there.

I think the storylines are already connected. Oleg and Philip are both trying to know their parents for the people they really were and what they went through. Oleg has learned shocking news about his mother, Philip about his father. Both of them and Gabriel were connected to the dark part of their country's history, the country they've both tried to serve as idealistic young men of the next generation.

I wonder if this will ever lead to Elizabeth admitting that her father was a traitor.

[Bretton]

47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip is from Tobolsk. The camp in the file mentioned Kransk.

Fair enough. That's actually a detail I was looking for and couldn't find. If the camps were in different parts of a large country, then I agree it's an unlikely outcome. The storyline convergence, in my mind, could have been around both men seeking out Mischa, rather than a mere biological relation. But again, I agree it's unlikely if the camps were so far apart. And I also agree that camps were not exactly a rarity in the Soviet Union.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Bretton

[Cthulhudrew]

4 hours ago, White Sheep said:

Could Stan new GF be working for the Mossad.  A few season ago. They know what Jennings look like. Find them in the USA.  Stan next door. Put an agent on Stan. 

We never did find out what it was that the KGB wanted with Gaad, did we? It was pretty clear that his death wasn't their intent, but whatever they had in mind was pretty heavy handed nonetheless. Could a plant working Stan be connected to that? Or maybe it is something to do with seeking retaliation over the death of Kosigyn.

[scrb]

P & E have not told Paige that they kill and whore themselves out for their work, that they're encouraging her to take up.

Now they let her believe the US is plotting to poison or starve Soviets.  Then Elizabeth adds some nonsense about how the world isn't as the Americans portray it, accusing someone else of lying while perpetrating a big lie.

Worst still, this false belief that Paige now has is the same mistaken premise under which Philip killed that lab worker.

He seems to be over the guilt, until Gabriel tells him about the horrible persecution of dissenters and innocents back in the Stalin days.  That has to be calculated, to tell Philip who'd previously expressed doubts about the mission.

Then to top it off, he says Paige shouldn't be involved, which is a nudge to him to get out, save his kids.

Only other thing he could have said to shock Philip even more would have been to tell him about Misha coming to America and being turned back.

Edited April 21, 2017 by scrb

[Trillian]

On 2017-04-20 at 1:25 AM, Bretton said:

A couple of episodes ago I said that, now that Pastor Tim has given a copy of Marx to Paige, the show-runners should no longer muddy the waters about the "kind" of pastor and Christian he is. Let me him be hyper left-wing and leave it at that.

But, alas, his dialog in this episode messed that up again. No super-liberal pastor goes around talking about the crucifixion of Jesus like that. In fact, the way he spoke about the subject sounded like no pastor/Christian I've ever encountered in my life. It came off like a really bad translation by someone who completely misunderstands native idioms. He really is one of the most poorly constructed characters in the show. For those of us really familiar with the nuances of Christendom Americana, he just comes off as so un-believable. 

Good observation. Tim really is all over the map politically and philosophically. I could buy that anyone of any political stripe could have a copy of Marx that he "read in college", because it could have been assigned reading for a comparative political philosophy course. And the way he spoke this episode is not inconsistent with the full-immersion baptism preacher we saw earlier. But it is inconsistent with the man who chained himself to a fence at a nuclear facility in front of a bunch of his teenaged flock. 

And that reminds me: what happened to the threat of nuclear war? The show tapped into that real fear that was pretty strong in the times - and seems to have forgotten it in favour of wheat. (Apartheid's another big issue of the day, dear to the liberal crowd, that the show seems to have dropped). Doe-eyed Paige should be all over those issues in the mid-80s, and Philip and Elizabeth should be telling their daughter that they are trying to prevent the madman in the White House blowing up the world. 

Are we in 1985 yet?  Still waiting for Paige to listen to Sting's If the Russians Love Their Children Too.  Or would that just be too much?

[stagmania]

5 hours ago, scrb said:

P & E have not told Paige that they kill and whore themselves out for their work, that they're encouraging her to take up.

They're not encouraging her to take up that kind of work; Paige is not meant to be an agent like them. She's an actual American who they would want to work her way into a government job. More like Martha.

[curbcrusher]

I find it interesting that most of the discussion of the episode has been about Paige, Ben and the wheat,   and not a lot on the report that Elizabeth stole from the office. I believe @Umbelina is the one that looked into the Committee On Human Rights a bit and said the real report had to do with Soviet psychiatrist diagnosing dissidents with mental diseases. During the episode, when Phillip asked Elizabeth what she lifted from the office, she said it was just a report with a bunch of names in it. My speculation: If the report is about people that have recently been diagnosed with the mental illness of being opposed to the Soviet government, Mischa's name is in the report.  He was "treated" before he made his escape, so I think it might be a possibility. And his name is about all Phillip know about him. If Phillip reads the report or has to go through it to transmit it, the fact that his son was a dissident will be revealed to him.

Just and observation, but something that seems to be missing now is the paranoia. It seems like in earlier seasons, Phillip and Elizabeth were portrayed as being more constantly concerned about being exposed. Were the telephone guys working on the street spying on them, was the new neighbor (Stan) there to catch them, and so forth.

[teddysmom]

Quote

Ok, Stan's gf is a fraud. In addition to being played by the actress who played the despicable Andrea on The Walking Dead, no one, I mean NO ONE would call Indiana University "the U of I" while watching Breaking Away.  Sacrilege.

Thank you!  No one should call Indiana University U of I at all, ever.    If University is the first word in the name, then U is first in the acronym.  NOT THAT HARD. 

She hung out in Bloomington, went swimming at the Rooftop Quarry, and yet had no idea what IU is called?  

Shenanigans!

I also hate it when my "mark" has someone on the side.  I was lmao.     

Edited April 21, 2017 by teddysmom

[teddysmom]

Quote

Now they let her believe the US is plotting to poison or starve Soviets.  Then Elizabeth adds some nonsense about how the world isn't as the Americans portray it, accusing someone else of lying while perpetrating a big lie.

THIS! I was yelling at the tv during this entire scene.   I really wish Phillip would start telling Paige the truth, that this spy stuff is god awful and they never should have exposed Paige to it, to burden her with it. 

[grommit2]

On 4/19/2017 at 8:31 AM, Bannon said:

Paige is now being written as the most credulous teenager in the United States, and that is problematic.

Help me with this one:  Has Paige had a facelift? Her expression never seems to change.  She is always bemused.  There are never any wrinkles, as when a teenager pouts, smiles, ponders, or laughs.  Strange. Of course, this totally blank appearance would seem to be perfect for a spy.  You would never know what she is thinking. 

[EtheltoTillie]

11 minutes ago, grommit2 said:

Help me with this one:  Has Paige had a facelift? Her expression never seems to change.  She is always bemused.  There are never any wrinkles, as when a teenager pouts, smiles, ponders, or laughs.  Strange. Of course, this totally blank appearance would seem to be perfect for a spy.  You would never know what she is thinking. 

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/the-americans-holly-taylor-interview.html

According to this article, Holly Taylor wants Paige to be a spy!

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

They're not encouraging her to take up that kind of work; Paige is not meant to be an agent like them. She's an actual American who they would want to work her way into a government job. More like Martha.

Also at this point neither of them has encouraged Paige to even do that. This is all about her understanding where they're coming from, not telling her that she should be a spy at all. Of course we the audience can see that that's an obvious conclusion for her to draw, but as of yet they haven't encouraged her about any future career. They don't even talk about it themselves.

1 hour ago, curbcrusher said:

During the episode, when Phillip asked Elizabeth what she lifted from the office, she said it was just a report with a bunch of names in it. My speculation: If the report is about people that have recently been diagnosed with the mental illness of being opposed to the Soviet government, Mischa's name is in the report.

I'm not sure the report would contain the name of every person ever diagnosed with this fake mental illness. I think the addresses that Elizabeth was after were names of the people on the actual Committee for Human Rights, which was a dissident group in the USSR--those are presumably people the USSR would be more interested in, since they already have the ones in the mental hospitals. If Mischa was part of that group it would be in there. It's possible they might have his name in it--the connection is pretty clear! And I wouldn't put it past the Centre to forget that Elizabeth isn't the best person to send after a report that would have Mischa's name in it. So it's certainly something that might somehow bring Mischa back into it. Or else it might be another sad irony of which our protagonists are never aware.

I'm not sure if Elizabeth has already handed over the report. It would make sense if she had already given it to Gabriel or whoever. So Philip might not ever have a chance to look at it. The idea of him asking might just be calling back to his new awareness--he wants to know what he's doing. We know that Philip really couldn't approve of this practice, knowing that he himself would be in a straight jacket according to it.

[qtpye]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 6:45 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

 

I agree with those who commented about some comical parts.  Like, when Gabriel is talking to Paige and comments on ALL THE LIVES her parents have SAVED!  Cracked me up.  Even Liz looked a little taken aback.  lol

The truth is some of their actions are causing misery and death for many people, including Russian citizens.  I hate to say this, but Elizabeth's unwavering support of the cause is making her seem rather dense.  She looked like such a simpleton, beaming with pride, as grandpa spy looked over the new recruit (Paige).  It is getting ridiculous that she has no idea about the corruption or the fact that E &P's retirement might be more like a bullet to the head (RIP Hans and Nina) rather then a hero's welcome in the mother land.

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 1:25 AM, Bretton said:

A couple of episodes ago I said that, now that Pastor Tim has given a copy of Marx to Paige, the show-runners should no longer muddy the waters about the "kind" of pastor and Christian he is. Let me him be hyper left-wing and leave it at that.

But, alas, his dialog in this episode messed that up again. No super-liberal pastor goes around talking about the crucifixion of Jesus like that. In fact, the way he spoke about the subject sounded like no pastor/Christian I've ever encountered in my life. It came off like a really bad translation by someone who completely misunderstands native idioms. He really is one of the most poorly constructed characters in the show. For those of us really familiar with the nuances of Christendom Americana, he just comes off as so un-believable. 

Pastor Tim could not be more strange if his name was Ned Flanders, though Ned has much better hair.

20 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if Mathew will mention Paige's sudden Ninja skills at deftly shoving him clear across the room to Stan?

I think Philip has thought about defecting, and it's obvious that Elizabeth knows that's what he wants to do.  She's brought it up a few times herself, he talked about the money and just being normal several times.  He's switched it a bit lately to going back to Russia, but Elizabeth knows he would prefer America and so does he.  God knows the kids would!

Philip hates this job, hates the lies, can't stand what he's doing to Paige, and if Elizabeth wasn't in the picture he would have defected long, long ago.  He doesn't stay out of patriotism or believing in their cause.  He could believe in better conditions for people of the world and still be an American and work for that.  His memories of home absolutely suck, starving, sad parents, growing up to kill boys that beat him and stole from him, graduating to having his boss at the rake factory try to rip him off and not pay his full salary. 

I'm sure he was happy in spy school, other than the sex training, it must have been like heaven to that kid.

He only continues to do this for one reason.  Elizabeth.  Not himself, he's miserable all the time, he feels like shit all the time, as he's been saying for seasons now.  Not for his kids, Paige is a mess, life ruined, he barely knows his son.  For Elizabeth.  Because SHE wants this.  No one else.

Oh, and I agree, the KGB would kill Paige in a heartbeat if she is perceived as a threat.  Philip too.  I'm pretty sure the only one they are marginally happy with right now is compliant fanatic Elizabeth.

Just like it is getting incredulous that Elizabeth does anything without even the slightest hint of doubt, it is becoming unbearable that it seems the only reason he is in this game is "twue luv".   I know many posters have given other reasons why he would not defect, but respectfully, this is not what the show has told us.

Yes, he will be blowing up his life in America.  However, the spy game will end with heroic retirement in Russia or a bullet to the head.  Both of these will disrupt his happy life in America horribly.  I think that defectors, particularly ones with the type of info Phillip has, were often forgiven for their crimes.  It really makes no sense, this man is living this life of utter misery, for a cause he suspects is utter bullshit and for people who will kill him and his family without a moment's hesitation if they feel compromised.

[sistermagpie]

36 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Just like it is getting incredulous that Elizabeth does anything without even the slightest hint of doubt, it is becoming unbearable that it seems the only reason he is in this game is "twue luv".   I know many posters have given other reasons why he would not defect, but respectfully, this is not what the show has told us.

Yes it has. There are plenty of scenes where Philip is motivated by the idea of protecting people back home and not Elizabeth. This isn't like an episode of "Wicked Attraction" with the dominating killer and the follower personality. Part of Philip's whole struggle is one of him, as an individual, figuring out how he really relates to the work. That's why he's asking questions. Elizabeth and Paige are such demanding personalities and are so open about everything they're thinking that they suck up a lot of the oxygen, but that doesn't mean everybody else must only be reacting to them. Or that the way other characters relate to them can't be complicated. 

ETA: Basically, with the two of them I think we need to start with the understanding that his devotion to her and her devotion to an expression of something fundamental in their psychology that's tied to a lot of their early life. It's something necessary to understanding them, not just a whim that either one nonsensically keeps following when it would be easier to choose otherwise. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

47 minutes ago, grommit2 said:

Help me with this one:  Has Paige had a facelift? Her expression never seems to change.  She is always bemused.  There are never any wrinkles, as when a teenager pouts, smiles, ponders, or laughs.  Strange. Of course, this totally blank appearance would seem to be perfect for a spy.  You would never know what she is thinking. 

As with Stan, I keep going back and forth between whether the bigger problem is with the acting or writing. To be fair, I though the acting in the break-up with Matthew scene was pretty good, with somewhat pedestrian lines.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

As with Stan, I keep going back and forth between whether the bigger problem is with the acting or writing. To be fair, I though the acting in the break-up with Matthew scene was pretty good, with somewhat pedestrian lines.

I think that scene probably had some advantages in that a) it's the type of scene that Holly Taylor does best. It's got a lot in common with the Pastor Tim confession scene over the phone where she's also full-on weepy. The physical violence at the end then made for a good contrast that couldn't help but read clearly. And b) I wouldn't be surprised if Matthew Rhys was good at directing her in it. Not to give him all the credit or anything--she's not a child being tricked into a good performance. But I think all those things helped in making it good scene that both played to HT's strengths and didn't depend on HT herself to find the variety herself. 

[qtpye]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that scene probably had some advantages in that a) it's the type of scene that Holly Taylor does best. It's got a lot in common with the Pastor Tim confession scene over the phone where she's also full-on weepy. The physical violence at the end then made for a good contrast that couldn't help but read clearly. And b) I wouldn't be surprised if Matthew Rhys was good at directing her in it. Not to give him all the credit or anything--she's not a child being tricked into a good performance. But I think all those things helped in making it good scene that both played to HT's strengths and didn't depend on HT herself to find the variety herself. 

 

53 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Help me with this one:  Has Paige had a facelift? Her expression never seems to change.  She is always bemused.  There are never any wrinkles, as when a teenager pouts, smiles, ponders, or laughs.  Strange. Of course, this totally blank appearance would seem to be perfect for a spy.  You would never know what she is thinking. 

I like to call Paige's one expression "scared rabbit".  The actress is good at portraying helpless, but not so much bad ass.  I wonder, how is it that Paige has no platonic friends...male or female?  It is bizarre to me that this child's best friends are a creepy pastor and his wife.  Henry is a much more normal teenager.  Not to be cruel, but I thank God I will never witness another Mathew and Paige make out.  Mathew is fug and nobody in 1984. in that age group had that hair.  He is almost like a younger version of Pastor Tim.

I wish the writer's used some of the attention being lavished on Paige to flesh Elizabeth out more.  The only thing we get about E, is that she is a fanatic for the cause, because her father is a deserter and that is supposed to serve as an explanation for everything.  This season has been a waste of Keri Russell's considerable talent,  though she has managed to do a lot with what little she has been given.

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Mathew is fug and nobody in 1984. in that age group had that hair.  He is almost like a younger version of Pastor Tim.

The hair really gets me. I am Paige's age and I can't imagine seeing a guy with that hair and getting a crush because he had a lot of hair. Henry is easily the most 80s looking kid in the house. 

36 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I wish the writer's used some of the attention being lavished on Paige to flesh Elizabeth out more.  The only thing we get about E, is that she is a fanatic for the cause, because her father is a deserter and that is supposed to serve as an explanation for everything.  This season has been a waste of Keri Russell's considerable talent,  though she has managed to do a lot with what little she has been given.

What's funny is that some of the attention lavished on Paige just brings up more questions. Like as has been said, when you've got Paige asking questions like "Is everyone equal there in the USSR?" and all that it makes you ask where all the previous knowledge she should have is. They have her reading up on US history and reading the paper critically (under Pastor Tim's guidance, presumably) enough that she can reference Watergate (something which was actually hard for kids our age because it, like Vietnam, was recent enough that we didn't study it as history, but also had no real memories of it), but she doesn't know anything about how the Soviet Union worked? 

[Clanstarling]

42 minutes ago, qtpye said:

nobody in 1984. in that age group had that hair.

While I agree the style is not attractive, there have always been outliers in each generation who could not care less about fashion or style. So era appropriateness doesn't bother me. My father, for example, wore the same hair style, and type of trousers, throughout his life - based on the photos from when he was a boy younger than Matthew, until he was in his 80s, and all the years in between. His look came in and out of fashion now and then, but as my grandmother told it, she was desperate to get him to wear stylish clothes when he was a teen in the 40s, and he refused.

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

While I agree the style is not attractive, there have always been outliers in each generation who could not care less about fashion or style. So era appropriateness doesn't bother me. My father, for example, wore the same hair style, and type of trousers, throughout his life - based on the photos from when he was a boy younger than Matthew, until he was in his 80s, and all the years in between. His look came in and out of fashion now and then, but as my grandmother told it, she was desperate to get him to wear stylish clothes when he was a teen in the 40s, and he refused.

Of course that is true.  The thing is, that anyone who remembers that era understands that 1984 is when the eighties truly began in all it's horrible glory.  The early eighties still had traces of the seventies lingering.  Mtv was at its peak with Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Prince.  Hair was getting bigger and make up was getting truly horrible.  I had cousins Mathew's age and they were all rocking Henry type hairstyles.  The girls really thought that look was dreamy.  It is like watching Mad Men and realizing that the early sixties were actually an extension of the fifties and nobody was Mod quite yet.