S05.E07: The Committee on Human Rights

[Quando]

Quote

I bow to no one in my past proselytizing for this show: I've gotten many friends to watch it.  I'm a booster.

But this season is now officially dragging. 

My thoughts exactly.  My wife fell asleep after the first ten minutes.  The next morning she asked me what happened.  I said, "Paige broke up with Matthew, and Gabriel left for home with a flower pot full of wheat plants.  That's about it."

[Razzberry]

Mostly I just kept thinking about how glad I am that Fargo is back.  I do love that P & E are mainly being used for sex and not really in a position to manipulate their targets.

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Did you notice that Henry was not even referred to by name in this episode?  Just "he".  As in "He's not here", when Phillip looked around to see if their conversation could be overheard.

At this point, the routine "where's Henry" establishing thing at the beginning of every house scene is getting tiresome. Can we just stipulate that he's never there and be done with it?

15 minutes ago, Quando said:

My thoughts exactly.  My wife fell asleep after the first ten minutes.  The next morning she asked me what happened.  I said, "Paige broke up with Matthew, and Gabriel left for home with a flower pot full of wheat plants.  That's about it."

I just don't get this entirely plot-driven view of the show. A lot of character stuff happened in this episode! Though tbh I would probably watch an entire season of the Jennings family sitting in a room exchanging loaded looks and occasionally verbalizing an intense emotion, so maybe I'm the weird one. :)

[Macbeth]

11 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I guess I'll be in the minority. I liked the episode. I think the season has gotten stronger as it's progressed. It's really become about a bunch of people who are getting progressively tired and dissatisfied with their jobs and their bosses questioning their loyalty. What do they do? What is the most important thing? Who are they really- as people? And where did they come from- their families- I mean?

I'll join you in the minority.  I feel like beginning with last week's episode things -for me- felt like they were finally gelling for this season. 

Of course this episode spent lots of time with Gabriel - so I was going to be a happy camper anyway.

It took a while - but I finally became vested in this season. 

[MisterBluxom]

My mistake. Sorry.

Edited April 20, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Bellalisa]

Horrible acting by Frank Langella in that last scene. He is so unbelievable in this role. He sounds nothing like a Russian who learned to speak English. His accent is so so Bronx. That last scene made me cringe about "how horrible it was after the war, it was bad". I like to get pulled in and not think about acting, scripts when watching something but it was so overly acted and just wrong. 

[MisterBluxom]

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Was Stan just being honest with the woman they are trying to get on board with info or was he really trying to dissuade her by warning her how ugly it could get if if she's caught providing them information?  He couldn't get help for Nina....I suppose that still weighs heavy on him.  

Still don't know if Stan's girlfriend is a spy, but, boy the writers sure do want us to believe it.  Wonder why?  What makes me suspicious is that she has so many stories about things that she's done with friends, activities, socializing, sports, etc.  She has so many connections.  It's almost too much.  I wonder if anyone will check up on it to see if she's truthful or not. 

If she is a spy, she must not be very good. I mean sometimes P & E take it slow. But this lady doesn't move at all. She's not doing anything with Stan except maybe for some romance. She has no agenda. She doesn't try to find out anything. If she is a spy, she must be the worst spy on the planet. She's a spy? Are you serious? (not directed at SunnyBebe - I'm just trying to be funny).

[Bannon]

39 minutes ago, stagmania said:

At this point, the routine "where's Henry" establishing thing at the beginning of every house scene is getting tiresome. Can we just stipulate that he's never there and be done with it?

I just don't get this entirely plot-driven view of the show. A lot of character stuff happened in this episode! Though tbh I would probably watch an entire season of the Jennings family sitting in a room exchanging loaded looks and occasionally verbalizing an intense emotion, so maybe I'm the weird one. :)

I've been saying for years that this show should be less plot-driven, and more based in psychology. More like a Russian novel, ironically enough. The problem is that outside of P & E, the psychology of many characters is borderline ridiculous. Paige, the most credulous American teenager in the nation, whenever the writers need her to be. Most of all Stan, supposedly a guy who worked successfully undercover for years among neo-Nazis, but goes to pieces when his marriage fails (men who work undercover for years don"t place enough value on a successful marriage to be torn up over a divorce), and most preposterously, gets played by the hot Russian babe he is supposed to be working. Ugh and double ugh.

The good things about this show I'll defend to the last pecked letter on my phone. Russell, Rhys, and most of all Allison Wright, have been stunningly good. The exploration of the psychological cost of living a fraudulent life has been great. I've been frustrated, however, by the feeling that the writers.have failed to fully take advantage of what is certainly one of the greatest premises in the history of television drama. I really hope they have saved something special for the short time left.

 

.

[jjj]

I have been on TeamSpy for Stan's gf from the first meeting with Phillip at the gym.  It is one of the points of resolution I am looking forward to.  Otherwise, seriously, what are we waiting for with bated breath?  What happens with the Russian ex-pat family?  (meh)  What happens with the newish Russian woman being recruited by Stan? (meh)  Will Paige ever be able to be happy again? (so, so meh)  Will Deidre and Ben break up with Phillip and Elizabeth ( "it's not you, it's me")?  (I'd watch that.)  Will Oleg have a revelation about his own family background? (okay, I'm interested) Will Mishca appear again and generate a Phillip crisis of faith in the motherland? (eh)  Will the wheat sprout seeds? (super meh)  But honestly, Stan's gf is the main point of mystery for me, and in other seasons, I would barely have remembered she had been in a scene.  Such thin material.  And I have been a super fan and trusting. 

I am sure it will gel in the final episode to set up the final season, but boy howdy, they are really stringing us along until then. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Why doesn't she have more questions then?  Soviet news wasn't good, at all, back in the eighties.  This does raise the question again about why Elizabeth had to steal that report though, wouldn't Moscow have the report?  Or was it for American reaction to it? 

I didn't think it was the report she stole. It was names and addresses of people in it that probably wouldn't have been public?

 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Perhaps, Paige could use some psychiatric care about now. Sending her to a boarding school, rehab facility, etc., would likely take some of the pressure off of her, but, how would Pastor Tim and Stan respond? They'd likely be too curious as to why it's happening and butt in.  That could prove problematic and even get them killed.  

Why would sending her anywhere help? She can't talk about her real problems with anyone but her parents or Pastor Tim. And they can't let her out of their sight because she might spill the beans again.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm surprised they didn't tell her they were spies, but worked for another agency, and not to tell Stan because he couldn't know, because he didn't have the level of clearance needed to know about thier existence as spies. 

I think they saw the choice as either tell the truth or not. Telling her a lie is just humiliating her. Plus it would just give Paige even more reason to blab. If they decided not to tell her the truth they would have just said there was nothing for her to know. They just had crazy schedules because of their business. Iow, stick with the cover story that's worked for years and act like she's the one who's nuts.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I've felt all along that if someone from the Center had a brief conversation with Paige, that would be all it took to convince them that she isn't spy material.

And that's exactly what happened. Imaginary points to you! 

I'm not so sure that's what happened. Gabriel didn't necessarily make this decision based on Paige's personality. He might just be saying that nobody should put their child into this life. We can see the many ways Paige seems a bad fit, but I don't know if that was the point Gabriel was making. You'd think he'd have considered that when Paige blew their cover.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm surprised she didn't use that as the excuse for the break-up: we're too different, we're interested in different things, I need to be with someone who shares my passion, we have nothing in common, and variations on that. 

More proof: Paige is a terrible liar. Instead of just making up a scenario where she's breaking up with Matthew for a normal reason--ones that could even be based in reality--she does it in a way that's unnecessarily dramatic and leaves him feeling like there's something weird going on.

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

At this point, the routine "where's Henry" establishing thing at the beginning of every house scene is getting tiresome. Can we just stipulate that he's never there and be done with it?

I think in a case like this they have to show Philip checking for Henry because they can't just have a spy conversation in the living room without knowing he's not listening. But yeah, it's getting annoying, especially because it's a thing that's been so picked up in the media about the show when it would be better if it was just invisible.

42 minutes ago, Bellalisa said:

Horrible acting by Frank Langella in that last scene. He is so unbelievable in this role. He sounds nothing like a Russian who learned to speak English. His accent is so so Bronx.

Frank Langella is not from the Bronx and I don't get what's supposed to be Bronx about his accent. But regardless, he's not supposed to sound like a Russian who learned to speak English. Like the Jennings and Claudia, he's supposed to sound like a native English speaker which he is.

[Bellalisa]

Maybe he is not exactly from the Bronx but his accent is very thick New York/New Jersey. He must be from that area because it is so thick. If a person was Russian and learned to speak English to blend in, he would not sound like that! He would sound like Phillip and Elizabeth, with a standard American accent. It's not believable.  I love this actor in other roles, he is AWFUL in this role. 

I had to laugh about Stan's gf with the "my friend went to U of I" in Bloomington. It's IU. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Bellalisa

[Umbelina]

They had to tell Paige in order to follow Center's orders.  Their only choice was to defect or tell, they were getting a lot of pressure, and while Philip would have been happy to defect, his (barf) true love Elizabeth wouldn't, so anything to keep her happy.  Running with 2 kids wasn't an option, Irina, as well trained as they, ran alone and was caught and killed by the KGB.

Yeah, I've been saying the pace is off all season, but in reading through all of this, it's not just that.  Everyone on screen is depressed, or with some that are depressed. 

So we are basically watching a bunch of depressed people non stop, if they aren't depressed themselves they are surrounded by depressed people.  Henry's not depressed, but his whole family is.  Aderholt isn't but he's stuck with depressed Stan. The Russian guy is happy as hell but his wife and kid are depressed.  Paige is even more depressed than this depressed child has been for seasons now, she's not even praying anymore.  Philip continues to be depressed.  Mathew isn't that depressed but he hangs with two depressed people, dad and Paige.  Gabe's depressed as fuck, depressed and sick of it all to the point of quitting.  Oleg's depressed, as are his parents, with their dead son.   The honey trap marks aren't really depressed either, but again, we only see them with Liz and Phil, and frankly, Liz is beginning to look depressed, probably from dealing with her depressed husband more than anything else.

So it's just a fucking downer of a season. 

In other seasons they mixed it up, and no, I'm not arguing for plot based stories alone, but they've been able to mix character and plot well before, throwing in humor and some normal/lighter moments as well.  This season?  We're basically watching people be depressed, and while that's realistic given everything we know?  It can be a drag to watch with no breaks, and very little action.

3 minutes ago, Bellalisa said:

Maybe he is not exactly from the Bronx but his accent is very thick New York/New Jersey. He must be from that area because it is so thick. If a person was Russian and learned to speak English to blend in, he would not sound like that! He would sound like Phillip and Elizabeth, with a standard American accent. It's not believable.  I love this actor in other roles, he is AWFUL in this role. 

I had to laugh about Stan's gf with the "my friend went to U of I" in Bloomington. It's IU. 

In reality many were given Indiana accents, but any American accent would be fine, so I honestly don't see the issue with Gabe.  Aside from that?  He is a handler, rarely running anyone anyway.  I can easily fan wank it to "he was trained by one of the super liberal NY people that flocked to Russia during the revolution and stayed."  REDS comes to mind.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Bellalisa said:

Maybe he is not exactly from the Bronx but his accent is very thick New York/New Jersey. He must be from that area because it is so thick. If a person was Russian and learned to speak English to blend in, he would not sound like that! He would sound like Phillip and Elizabeth, with a standard American accent. It's not believable.  I love this actor in other roles, he is AWFUL in this role. 

Maybe it's because I'm also from NY/NJ but I've never thought he had a thick accent from that area. There's other viewers who think he sounds British. Frankly, if any Directorate-S agent has a noticeable regional accent to me it's Claudia. She sounds southern. But it doesn't distract me. I know none of these people are Russian speakers and it's totally believable to me that somebody might have pronunciation that sounds regional for some reason. There's no particularly reason at all that someone learning to speak English from Russian must have the standard American accent. Maybe Gabriel trained with a teacher who sounded more New Jersey and Claudia with someone who sounded Texan.

[Penman61]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I can easily fan wank it to "he was trained by one of the super liberal NY people that flocked to Russia during the revolution and stayed."  REDS comes to mind.

I LOVE this.  #JackReedLives

[Ellaria]

Just an FYI about Frank Langella...he was born to an Italian-American family in Bayonne, NJ and grew up in South Orange, NJ. So no, not the Bronx but damn close in every way. And I say this as an Italian-American who was born, raised and has lived most of her life in NYC and Northern NJ. 

Nonetheless, I find his accent totally in keeping with his character.

[jjj]

22 minutes ago, Bellalisa said:

Maybe he is not exactly from the Bronx but his accent is very thick New York/New Jersey. He must be from that area because it is so thick.

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe it's because I'm also from NY/NJ but I've never thought he had a thick accent from that area. There's other viewers who think he sounds British.

 

Yes, I am also from the East Coast Land of Regional Accents, and I also don't hear a NY/NJ accent -- and certainly not the Bronx!  I agree his diction and cadence is more in a British tradition, although he does not have a British accent.  But I understand why some people would say that. 

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Just an FYI about Frank Langella...he was born to an Italian-American family in Bayonne, NJ and grew up in South Orange, NJ. So no, not the Bronx but damn close in every way. And I say this as an Italian-American who was born, raised and has lived most of her life in NYC and Northern NJ. 

Nonetheless, I find his accent totally in keeping with his character.

All youse guys crack me up with all the different interpretations of the way he tawwks!

Edited April 20, 2017 by jjj

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Just an FYI about Frank Langella...he was born to an Italian-American family in Bayonne, NJ and grew up in South Orange, NJ. So no, not the Bronx but damn close in every way. And I say this as an Italian-American who was born, raised and has lived most of her life in NYC and Northern NJ. 

Oh yes, I knew he was from New Jersey. I've just never one listened to him talk and could hear it. He sounds theatrical/sonorous to me, not NY/NJ. And that accent is pretty familiar to me.

[Ellaria]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yes, I knew he was from New Jersey. I've just never one listened to him talk and could hear it. He sounds theatrical/sonorous to me, not NY/NJ. And that accent is pretty familiar to me.

Exactly. It sounds theatrical not regional. He speaks very deliberately, like a wise, older man. I love the way he speaks.

[RedHawk]

24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

More proof: Paige is a terrible liar. Instead of just making up a scenario where she's breaking up with Matthew for a normal reason--ones that could even be based in reality--she does it in a way that's unnecessarily dramatic and leaves him feeling like there's something weird going on.

I totally agree. She seemed on the verge of blabbing to Matthew, which wouldn't have been the least bit surprising. Now he's more likely to try to find out what's going on with her so he can "fix it" rather than just accept their teen romance has run its course. In a normal scenario he would cut his hair, join another band, and laugh when telling his college buddies about his months dating "Pathetic Paige".

How will poor Stan ever get over Paige and Matthew breaking up?

[Bannon]

31 minutes ago, jjj said:

Yes, I am also from the East Coast Land of Regional Accents, and I also don't hear a NY/NJ accent -- and certainly not the Bronx!  I agree his diction and cadence is more in a British tradition, although he does not have a British accent.  But I understand why some people would say that. 

All youse guys crack me up with all the different interpretations of the way he tawwks!

In a show where American actors play Soviets pretending to be Americans, I'm not going to care much about accents.

[Otherkate]

The focus on Paige has completely ruined this season for me. The whole show comes to a halt when she comes onscreen. I could not possibly be less interested. What a bummer.

[MisterBluxom]

57 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yes, I knew he was from New Jersey. I've just never one listened to him talk and could hear it. He sounds theatrical/sonorous to me, not NY/NJ. And that accent is pretty familiar to me.

If there was more happening (more action), people wouldn't have so much time to think about all the little imperfections.

I'm fairly sure the producers have someone read these forums. Maybe not exactly this specific forum. But I'd bet they have someone skim through several of the user forums and report to them the general mood and reactions of the viewers. I'm guessing they know many people are grumbling about the lack of action this season. But I'd also guess they don't have time to switch gears in mid-stream (so to speak).

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

 

I just don't get this entirely plot-driven view of the show. A lot of character stuff happened in this episode! Though tbh I would probably watch an entire season of the Jennings family sitting in a room exchanging loaded looks and occasionally verbalizing an intense emotion, so maybe I'm the weird one. :)

That's why I don't see it as boring either: a lot of character stuff happened. I'm not super concerned- yet- about checking off plot points. I trust it will all come together. 

However, as much  as I like all the character drama, could Philip catch a break somewhere? It's blow after blow. He finds out he killed an innocent guy because the centre screwed up. He finds out his mother lied and his father was a KGB prison guard. His daughter reserves all of her most depressing pronouncements for him. He's told the agency he's worked for over 2 decades is watching him. His father figure is leaving just as he's cracking. Gabriel reserves his most devestating words about Paige for him. Henry is snarky. He's over- worked. And, though he doesn't know it, he got stabbed in the back and missed the chance to meet his son. Philip needs to catch a break somewhere imo. 

[Umbelina]

They all do really, but yes, until Philip reclaims his life from the succubus that is Elizabeth, he'll continue to sink into depression.  I don't even blame her, he's a grown man who should be able to separate love from something that makes you feel miserable all the time.  If he can't do it for himself, you'd think he would at least do it for his daughter.

They are all depressed.  It gets depressing to watch everyone be depressed.

[jjj]

43 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm fairly sure the producers have someone read these forums. Maybe not exactly this specific forum. But I'd bet they have someone skim through several of the user forums and report to them the general mood and reactions of the viewers. I'm guessing they know many people are grumbling about the lack of action this season. But I'd also guess they don't have time to switch gears in mid-stream (so to speak).

This show is filmed before each season begins to air, so it is already "in the can".  The finale finished filming in early March, about the time this season premiered. 

[TaurusRose]

7 hours ago, jjj said:

No way was Martha a willing participant.  She thought she was helping an oversight branch of the U.S. government.  When she finally was told the truth, much later, she was a very reluctant protector of Phillip while also trying to be loyal to the FBI.   And she was living in terror, because she knew it was wrong and she was caught in the web. 

Best spin ever. IMO Martha was a willing participant the minute she knew who "Clark" was and she continued to undermine her country because she was in love.  RME.

[ruby24]

It is kind of interesting to see Philip in a position with Deirdre where she doesn't want to get serious or closer to him, and sex isn't making that happen. 

[NitneLiun]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

...was this actually a thing they showed on TV? I mean, its not like people in the USSR were going to see it and get offended, but that's just such a weird marketing choice. Man, I wasn't around for the 80s, but everything I've seen tells me it was strange times.

 

I remember the Wendy's commercial quite well.  Given the Cold War climate at the time, it was very clever and well-received.

The commercial definitely hit a Russian nerve.  Their propaganda machine went into overdrive.  Soviet "spokespeople" and propagandists like Vladimir Posner, who were based in the U.S. as journalists went ballistic and tried to have the commercial removed from television.

[Bretton]

A couple of episodes ago I said that, now that Pastor Tim has given a copy of Marx to Paige, the show-runners should no longer muddy the waters about the "kind" of pastor and Christian he is. Let me him be hyper left-wing and leave it at that.

But, alas, his dialog in this episode messed that up again. No super-liberal pastor goes around talking about the crucifixion of Jesus like that. In fact, the way he spoke about the subject sounded like no pastor/Christian I've ever encountered in my life. It came off like a really bad translation by someone who completely misunderstands native idioms. He really is one of the most poorly constructed characters in the show. For those of us really familiar with the nuances of Christendom Americana, he just comes off as so un-believable. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Bretton

[MisterBluxom]

40 minutes ago, Bretton said:

A couple of episodes ago I said that, now that Pastor Tim has given a copy of Marx to Paige, the show-runners should no longer muddy the waters about the "kind" of pastor and Christian he is. Let me him be hyper left-wing and leave it at that.

But, alas, his dialog in this episode messed that up again. No super-liberal pastor goes around talking about the crucifixion of Jesus like that. In fact, the way he spoke about the subject sounded like no pastor/Christian I've ever encountered in my life. It came off like a really bad translation by someone who completely misunderstands native idioms. He really is one of the most poorly constructed characters in the show. For those of us really familiar with the nuances of Christendom Americana, he just comes off as so un-believable. 

I'm guessing that our friend Timbo has found a place where he can exist in ease and comfort and no one really bothers him too much. He can do his thing and people just smile and wave and sometimes say, "Good work Bastor Tim!  Would you like to share some of our hair care products?  I think I have some extra stuff lying around here somewhere and I think this would work well for you and the little woman."  In the meantime,  I'm guessing we just have to accept the fact that he is just a goofy kind of goof and will remain so until his dying day (or maybe that is our dying day?)!"  Good old Timbo! What a goofball!  It takes a special kind of goof to get lost in a parking lot. Doesn't it?

Oh, well!  Hallelujah, Tim!

 

What a goof!  Well, at least he's got a roof!

Edited April 20, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Bannon]

36 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I'm guessing that our friend Timbo has found a place where he can exist in ease and comfort and no one really bothers him too much. He can do his thing and people just smile and wave and sometimes say, "Good work Bastor Tim!  Would you like to share some of our hair care products?  I think I have some extra stuff lying around here somewhere and I think this would work well for you and the little woman."  In the meantime,  I'm guessing we just have to accept the fact that he is just a goofy kind of goof and will remain so until his dying day (or maybe that is our dying day?)!"  Good old Timbo! What a goofball!  It takes a special kind of goof to get lost in a parking lot. Doesn't it?

Oh, well!  Hallelujah, Tim!

 

What a goof!  Well, at least he's got a roof!

Unfortunately, nailing the minor characters is often what makes a show great, instead of merely good.

[Cthulhudrew]

5 hours ago, Bellalisa said:

I had to laugh about Stan's gf with the "my friend went to U of I" in Bloomington. It's IU. 

Irritated me, too. I'm still very nostalgic for that campus.

[ChromaKelly]

22 hours ago, topanga said:

I thought people couldn't take plants through Customs. Or is that a recent thing?

 

Me too! He's one of the only people on the show who speaks with a normal voice. Almost everyone else talks in these slow, hushed tones. Makes me sleepy, quite honestly. And the dialogue is hard to hear sometimes.

And how do P & E explain leaving a 13-year-old kid alone at home for days? I know they used to leave the kids alone overnight, but were they ever gone for days???

That leads me to a question I've been having for quite a while. The show picks up with the the kids as teens/pre-teens. At that age, you can leave a child alone for several hours, possibly an overnight. What did P&E do when Paige and Henry were smaller? Get babysitters all the time? Did the Center provide one that they could call at a moment's notice?
I'm finding the working marks in Kansas storyline to be stretching things a bit too much. It's almost bordering on Dexter-like credibility regarding how many hours there are in a day for people to work, sleep, tend to their children, and still fit in their spying/killing.

[SunnyBeBe]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe it's because I'm also from NY/NJ but I've never thought he had a thick accent from that area. There's other viewers who think he sounds British. Frankly, if any Directorate-S agent has a noticeable regional accent to me it's Claudia. She sounds southern. But it doesn't distract me. I know none of these people are Russian speakers and it's totally believable to me that somebody might have pronunciation that sounds regional for some reason. There's no particularly reason at all that someone learning to speak English from Russian must have the standard American accent. Maybe Gabriel trained with a teacher who sounded more New Jersey and Claudia with someone who sounded Texan.

I'm one of those who thought Gabriel had a British accent.  lol  Oh, well.  It's so instilled in me, that I think I'll always think that.  And, since, he's gone....I suppose it doesn't matter.  

My point about Paige being better off if they would have her placed under psychiatric care and moved to another place to live, calling it boarding school or some other kind of place, was that she would actually be under the care of an approved doctor, who she could trust because he's one of them.  And the facility would be approved too.  Trouble is, Pastor Tim and Stan would want details, get suspicious, check up on the story, want to visit, etc.  Not a feasible option.  But, imo, a good way to get Paige out of the picture.  I mean, how long can they last with her moping around, causing suspicion, etc.  Will her grades suffer?  I don't  know.....perhaps a small boarding school in Europe (under the care of special friends) would be one option.  

[Chaos Theory]

11 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I'll join you in the minority.  I feel like beginning with last week's episode things -for me- felt like they were finally gelling for this season. 

Of course this episode spent lots of time with Gabriel - so I was going to be a happy camper anyway.

It took a while - but I finally became vested in this season. 

I'll sit with you guys.  I think the season is showing how tired the Jennings are.  How hard things are getting.   Phillip isn't connecting to his targets like he used to.  Elizabeth is connecting too much.  Philip was able to get so close because he did care and Elizabeth because she didn't.  Not it seems to be reversed but their abilities to disconnect are not working like they should because of it.  Philips heart is not in it and Elizabeth is showing too much of hers.  Both are playing outside their comfort zones.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Ina123]

The only thing that bugs me about the issue of Henry not being home is the way they respond about him. "He's not here" is getting old. How about, "Henry called. He's going to the movies with Blake. They'll drop him off after." Or, "Henry just left to go to Mike's." How about, "Someone needs to pick Henry up at the rink at 9". At least acknowledge you are in communication with your son.

[ChromaKelly]

15 hours ago, jjj said:

Mine, also!  I actually thought there was a clue in the girlfriend's remark about the film location, because she referred to "the U of I", meaning Indiana University, where it was filmed.  But no one calls it "U of I" -- just "IU".  I thought the perturbed look on Stan's face was "dang, she's a spy, she does not know our lingo!"  (joking, but I thought that was significant.  I guess it means the writer don't know it is "IU".) 

Me too! I thought that's why Stan paused the movie, he was thinking about it. Maybe he was and it will come up again?

[jjj]

7 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

The only thing that bugs me about the issue of Henry not being home .... At least acknowledge you are in communication with your son.

"Oh, look, honey, Henry sent us a video tape update."  

[Ina123]

6 hours ago, Bretton said:

But, alas, his dialog in this episode messed that up again. No super-liberal pastor goes around talking about the crucifixion of Jesus like that. In fact, the way he spoke about the subject sounded like no pastor/Christian I've ever encountered in my life. It came off like a really bad translation by someone who completely misunderstands native idioms. He really is one of the most poorly constructed characters in the show. For those of us really familiar with the nuances of Christendom Americana, he just comes off as so un-believable. 

As a Protestant Christian all my life, I get such great laughs as Hollywood writers totally do not "get" how the majority of us think and behave, especially in our churches and dealing with our church family. The portrayal of how we relate or witness our faith to others is just so distorted, at least, most of the time. I won't claim it's deliberate, but just awkward. Most of us are just run-of-the-mill but portrayed as weird somehow. <sigh> Maybe I feel this way because I live in lowly flyover country.

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

If there was more happening (more action), people wouldn't have so much time to think about all the little imperfections.

LOL that is absolutely not true. It's basically what these forums are for, whether you love the show or not. Revisit some of the old threads if you want proof.

8 hours ago, Erin9 said:

However, as much  as I like all the character drama, could Philip catch a break somewhere? It's blow after blow. He finds out he killed an innocent guy because the centre screwed up. He finds out his mother lied and his father was a KGB prison guard. His daughter reserves all of her most depressing pronouncements for him. He's told the agency he's worked for over 2 decades is watching him. His father figure is leaving just as he's cracking. Gabriel reserves his most devestating words about Paige for him. Henry is snarky. He's over- worked. And, though he doesn't know it, he got stabbed in the back and missed the chance to meet his son. Philip needs to catch a break somewhere imo. 

I suspect he absolutely will not catch a break, because this is all leading to the big break. 

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They all do really, but yes, until Philip reclaims his life from the succubus that is Elizabeth, he'll continue to sink into depression.  I don't even blame her, he's a grown man who should be able to separate love from something that makes you feel miserable all the time.  If he can't do it for himself, you'd think he would at least do it for his daughter.

Philip's reluctance to blow up their life is about more than making Elizabeth happy. It's his life, too. His home, his kids, his work that he's dedicated his entire existence to and that gave purpose to a life previously defined by loneliness, trauma, and poverty. It's overly simplistic to attribute his complicated feelings and hesitation about trying to escape this work solely to love for Elizabeth. We've never even seen him seriously contemplate what defecting from the Centre would look like or how he and the family would survive. I absolutely believe that if Elizabeth looked at him and said "I want to defect", he would go all in with her without hesitation. But that's not the same thing as what you're suggesting.

3 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I'll sit with you guys.  I think the season is showing how tired the Jennings are.  How hard things are getting.   Phillip isn't connecting to his targets like he used to.  Elizabeth is connecting too much.  Philip was able to get so close because he did care and Elizabeth because she didn't.  Not w it seems to be reversed but their abilities to disconnect are not working like they should because of it.

Yes, absolutely, everyone is exhausted and depressed. And I get that for some people, that's a bummer to watch, but it's true to their story. It reminds me a lot of the reaction to Season 6 of Buffy. A lot of people hated that, too, because watching your protagonist sink into depression, self loathing and self destruction is not fun, and some viewers wanted their quippy show back. But it rang true to the character progression. I can handle some darker and more oppressive beats in a story if it feels like an authentic journey.

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/13/2017 at 0:47 PM, Sarah 103 said:

One reason to bring Paige to Gabriel is that they think he can do a better job of explaining what they do and why they do it. Another explanation is that Philip knows after Gabriel meets with Paige and talks to her he will realize that using her will be a bad idea, and having that information come to the Centre from Gabriel instead of them will be better for everyone involved. 

That makes sense. But how do we get around the fact that Paige will therefore have to be killed? 

The Centre hasn't shown a lot of tolerance for people who "know too much." That's always been one of the major sources of tension in this show. Maybe the single greatest source of tension. Philip himself knows there's no such thing as saying "I'm out" once you're in. 

[AAEBoiler]

What is happening to this show? It used to be so interesting and tense to watch but now there's just nothing going on at all.

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I'll sit with you guys.  I think the season is showing how tired the Jennings are.  How hard things are getting.   Phillip isn't connecting to his targets like he used to.  Elizabeth is connecting too much.  Philip was able to get so close because he did care and Elizabeth because she didn't.  Not it seems to be reversed but their abilities to disconnect are not working like they should because of it.  Philips heart is not in it and Elizabeth is showing too much of hers.  Both are playing outside their comfort zones.

I mostly agree with this. But, Deidre comes across as a person who would be very difficult for anyone to connect to. She's interested in work and sex mostly- not connecting. Maybe Philip did try a bit too hard to connect to her b/c that's what he's used to and that was an issue. But Deidre seems pretty emotionally flat to me. That's why she amuses me so much. OTOH- She was content with the relationship as it was. As long as Philip didn't try any harder to connect with her. So, it worked anyway. He got what he needed.  It was just weird for him and out of his comfort zone. Most people want a connection. She really didn't. 

They are both tired though. 

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Most people want a connection. She really didn't.

This is why I'm enjoying watching Philip flail with her. Deirdre is really outside the norm for him, and he doesn't know how to work her. MR's expressions with her are priceless.

I also appreciate that Deirdre isn't being shown as some desperate, emotionally needy single woman. She's something of an odd duck, but she's living her life the way she wants to.

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

This is why I'm enjoying watching Philip flail with her. Deirdre is really outside the norm for him, and he doesn't know how to work her. MR's expressions with her are priceless.

I also appreciate that Deirdre isn't being shown as some desperate, emotionally needy single woman. She's something of an odd duck, but she's living her life the way she wants to.

She kind of reminds me of Debbie from Survivor - if Debbie was mute.

[Eulipian 5k]

12 hours ago, RedHawk said:

  13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

More proof: Paige is a terrible liar. Instead of just making up a scenario where she's breaking up with Matthew for a normal reason--ones that could even be based in reality--she does it in a way that's unnecessarily dramatic and leaves him feeling like there's something weird going on.

A teenage girl providing a teenage boy a lucid and cogent reason she's breaking up with him would be like finding a rainbow colored unicorn with 5 legs. I'd give Paige a break. Mathew will be okay when he meets his first 23 year old "older woman".

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

That leads me to a question I've been having for quite a while. The show picks up with the the kids as teens/pre-teens. At that age, you can leave a child alone for several hours, possibly an overnight. What did P&E do when Paige and Henry were smaller? Get babysitters all the time? Did the Center provide one that they could call at a moment's notice?

Yes, they had babysitters. They still had them in the first season. Presumably they also staggered things so one of them was there as much as possible.

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

My point about Paige being better off if they would have her placed under psychiatric care and moved to another place to live, calling it boarding school or some other kind of place, was that she would actually be under the care of an approved doctor, who she could trust because he's one of

But I think the last person Philip would trust to be her psychiatrist would be someone who was "one of them." That's basically handing her over to someone who's going to try to push her into wanting to be a spy.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I mostly agree with this. But, Deidre comes across as a person who would be very difficult for anyone to connect to. She's interested in work and sex mostly- not connecting. Maybe Philip did try a bit too hard to connect to her b/c that's what he's used to and that was an issue. But Deidre seems pretty emotionally flat to me. That's why she amuses me so much.

Yeah, I agree. Philip certainly isn't that into the job, but  don't think the failure of connection is just down to Philip losing his mojo. At the FBI he found a person who obviously was a great source and was literally dreaming of her dream man. He's gotten himself into Deirdre's bed so he's not failing at it, but he can't create a desire in the woman that isn't there. Remember the whole reason they've picked these two people is just that they're single so the Centre's just telling them to date them. While Philip and Elizabeth's emotional states are definitely a big part of the story from their end, I think Ben and Deirdre themselves are more about showing that not everybody is the same. Sometimes you have to deal with people who are better at not wanting a real relationship than they are. Left to their own devices P&E generally pick people they see as having something they can exploit. It's never been about Philip and Elizabeth being irresistible, it's picking the right people.

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

That makes sense. But how do we get around the fact that Paige will therefore have to be killed? 

The Centre hasn't shown a lot of tolerance for people who "know too much." That's always been one of the major sources of tension in this show. Maybe the single greatest source of tension. Philip himself knows there's no such thing as saying "I'm out" once you're in. 

Paige can still keep her parents' secret without spying for the Centre. There's been no indication that if she doesn't go all the way she'll need to be killed.

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

A teenage girl providing a teenage boy a lucid and cogent reason she's breaking up with him would be like finding a rainbow colored unicorn with 5 legs. I'd give Paige a break. Mathew will be okay when he meets his first 23 year old "older woman".

I didn't say Paige had to present a lucid and cogent reason to Matthew as if she was a trial lawyer. I was saying she should have in her mind imagine a scenario where she's breaking up with him because she wasn't that into him and stuck with that story *in her head* instead of broadcasting the impression that there's something Very Big And Serious driving her that she was not able to say. It's okay for her to feel maddeningly puzzling to Matthew, but not in a way that's going to leave him (and probably his dad now, too) ever more sure that Paige has some big thing going on with her that they're trying to puzzle out. Something beyond the usual teenage girl stuff.

Paige has no chill. Yet at times it seems like the show honestly wants us to think that she not only has it, but that we should be amazed by how she's developed it over the past year.

[dubbel zout]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

instead of broadcasting the impression that there's something Very Big And Serious driving her that she was not able to say

As a former teenage girl, I can say a lot of things can be Very Big and Serious to you but not anyone else. Drama is part of the package. (Wow, am I glad I'm not a teenager anymore!)

I get your point, but I think that because we know Paige has genuine life-threatening reasons to break up with Matthew, that colors how we see her with him. I think he's fairly perceptive, but just because she doesn't give him a decent reason for breaking up doesn't mean he'll jump to Paige having spy parents. Or anything close to that. I do think she could and should have done a better job with the break up, he's her first boyfriend. It's hard.

[Sarah 103]

13 hours ago, RedHawk said:

How will poor Stan ever get over Paige and Matthew breaking up?

I'm sure Philip will help. I'm guessing along the lines of, "they're teenagers this stuff happens," "how many people marry thier first boyfriend," "maybe they'll get back together," "who really understands why teenagers do what they do." 

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

As a former teenage girl, I can say a lot of things can be Very Big and Serious to you but not anyone else. Drama is part of the package. (Wow, am I glad I'm not a teenager anymore!)

I get your point, but I think that because we know Paige has genuine life-threatening reasons to break up with Matthew, that colors how we see her with him. I think he's fairly perceptive, but just because she doesn't give him a decent reason for breaking up doesn't mean he'll jump to Paige having spy parents. Or anything close to that. I do think she could and should have done a better job with the break up, he's her first boyfriend. It's hard.

I think Philip will be able to help with any damage control needed and play it down as just girl/teen drama. Philip can help Stan remember how strange, mysterious, and baffling girls were to them at that age.  

[sistermagpie]

Just now, dubbel zout said:

As a former teenage girl, I can say a lot of things can be Very Big and Serious to you but not anyone else. Drama is part of the package. (Wow, am I glad I'm not a teenager anymore!)

 

Yeah, but this situation is very specific. My comment wasn't about whether Paige is bad at being a teenager, but whether Paige is showing skill for lying in this scene. Her parents tend to live by the rule that it's not good enough to act in a way that can be explained away with mundane reasons. They try to act in ways that people don't have to explain with mundane reasons because they're not thinking anything needs explaining. Even that isn't always enough when they have an emergency and they're dealing with Stan Beeman, but you don't need to be that sensitive to pick up on something with Paige.

This won't necessarily be the thing that sinks them, but this aspect of Paige has already drawn unwanted attention.