S03.E01: The Book of Kevin

[WaltersHair]

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Well we know how that turned out lol!  That was funny about your Mother.

She loves a period piece and I think she thought it was strange to have an opening like that. I patiently told her that strange is the least thing to worry about when discussing The Leftovers, lol.

[maystone]

3 hours ago, revbfc said:

 

 

On 2017-04-18 at 1:49 PM, Lady Iris said:

The GR got bombed? Like off the face of the earth? Were they considered domestic terrorists or something? I'm not sad to see them go. I know this is just a drama but in what real life context would a group like this be summarily executed in America?

 

3 hours ago, revbfc said:

The Branch Davidians in Waco come to mind.

And MOVE in 1985. The Philadelphia police dropped a bomb on their house and killed 11 including 6 children.

[scrb]

But the GR in that trailer didn't have weapons did they?

There was a fear that they might have a bomb in there.

Hard to believe they'd take out that trailer without a good intel indicating it posed a threat to others.

[maystone]

I wonder how the hell Nora ended up back at the DSD. It seemed as if she had literally moved on from that part of her life, and she was not too happy with the DSD investigator she had to deal with in S2. In a kind of odd mirror of S1, she's a DSD agent and Kevin is chief of police. And she's childless again. I also wonder if Lily's absence had something to do with her decision to go back to work at Sudden Departures.

My conspiracy theory of the moment is that Lily was taken by the government when they discovered that she was the daughter of Holy Wayne. I mean he was such a big deal in S1, and the feds were definitely on his trail. I know that the show can't wrap up all of those loose threads, but it would be interesting to know what the deal with Wayne was.

My guess about Erika is that she left John when he wouldn't accept that Evie was killed in the bombing. Can you imagine what it would be like to be a parent grieving the death of her child while her husband keeps denying her grief? That's a circle of hell for sure. John has never been shown to us as someone who accepts the facts rather than his own wishful thinking. So what the hell is Laurie doing with him? She's astute enough to see through that even if she hadn't been around for his murder of Kevin. Maybe he's her project, her way to deal with life after the GR.

18 minutes ago, scrb said:

But the GR in that trailer didn't have weapons did they?

There was a fear that they might have a bomb in there.

Hard to believe they'd take out that trailer without a good intel indicating it posed a threat to others.

I think the feds were just looking for an excuse, and Meg pretty much laid out the welcome mat with her stunt. Also the official story has never been that they were bombed - they killed themselves by smoking in the middle of a giant gas leak. Oops! I think that leaving that hella big crater there is a very visible warning to the rest of the GR.

[scrb]

When Evie went outside, she saw all the cops and other vehicles leaving, as if they were warned what was coming.  Then it showed the reflection of the missiles.

Again, in this Leftovers world, nobody recorded that with their phones?

Come on!

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I don't usually like beards on guys but....damn. That Justin Theroux though.

 

There better be a good reason why Lilly's not around. I hate when children are written off of series just so the plot can go on without the trouble of "but who is watching the baby/toddler?".

I'm somewhat worried about Mary going back into a comatose state and something happening to Noah when they leave Miracle.

Edited April 20, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[ottoDbusdriver]

So what happened to the National Park Service running Jarden ?  Did they also pull out the day after the bombing ?

I'm also surprised that they didn't fill in that crater .... in 3 years.

During that time jump, they really could have used the mice from the movie 'Babe'.

I'm hoping there was some purpose to the the dog guy -- otherwise it just felt like they were trying to shoehorn in a minor plot point from S1.

 

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Shermie said:

The biblical Sarah was infertile even though God told Abraham (her husband) that he would be the father of many nations, as infinite as the sands. But when God visited her and Abraham to say she'd have a baby, she laughed because she was 90 and A was 100. However, she did give birth to Isaac who was the father of Esau and Jacob, also known as Israel, father of the Israelite nation (as well as Joseph of the amazing technicolor dreamcoat fame). 

On the Bible tangent, I thought of Kevin being baptized in the river and then later the lone dove flying in the sky for a moment. Made me think of John the Baptist baptizing Jesus and God sending the dove to declare, "This is beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." 

I enjoy all the biblical Easter eggs.

Thanks, @Shermie, for covering all of that. I was also thinking of Sarah "giving" her "handmaiden" to Abraham to get pregnant to jumpstart the fulfillment of the prophecy, but then wound up telling Abraham to kick out the maid (Hagar) and their kid (Ishmael). I wonder if the missing Erika and Lily are stand-ins for Hagar and Ishmael. And, Ishmael and Isaac, BTW, are reputed to be the forbearers of the Arabs and the Israelis. It sounds potentiallly very multi-milennial-Lindlehoff-esque. 

But these theories ring true to me:

2 hours ago, maystone said:

. . . My conspiracy theory of the moment is that Lily was taken by the government when they discovered that she was the daughter of Holy Wayne. I mean he was such a big deal in S1, and the feds were definitely on his trail. I know that the show can't wrap up all of those loose threads, but it would be interesting to know what the deal with Wayne was.

My guess about Erika is that she left John when he wouldn't accept that Evie was killed in the bombing. Can you imagine what it would be like to be a parent grieving the death of her child while her husband keeps denying her grief? That's a circle of hell for sure. John has never been shown to us as someone who accepts the facts rather than his own wishful thinking. . . .

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

53 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm hoping there was some purpose to the the dog guy -- otherwise it just felt like they were trying to shoehorn in a minor plot point from S1.

 

I wasn't ever 100% sure that Dean wasn't a hallucination in Kevin's mind, so seeing him again and knowing other characters saw him, too, at least cleared it up for me that he was real person.

[Pallas]

The website Michael was reviewing when Kevin first came by the church was The Mapleton Gazette. Research, I assume. And perhaps how Dean knew where to find Kevin: Matt could have called to interview him about Patty.

On 4/17/2017 at 6:47 PM, stagmania said:

Given that everyone's tip toeing around her and Kevin asked Jill if he should try to force her to talk about it, it certainly seems that whatever happened with Lily was traumatic for Nora. I'm dying to know where Erika went.

Erika lost her father and her daughter within 36 hours but even so, I don't see her as someone who would come unhinged with grief and steal an infant. She's made of stern stuff. While she was in med school, she married the man her father molested; while her husband was in prison for trying to kill her father, she stayed married to him and raised twins alone. Evie's death allowed Erika to finally leave John and Jarden. She'd told Nora that she knew Michael's faith would sustain him but that "Evie would never understand why I left." (The irony in Erika and Evie's last exchange, on the bridge. Erika, beseeching Evie: "I don't understand!" Evie, written, to Erika: "You understand.") She didn't need another baby; she finally needed out. Free, and not on the run from the police, while caring for an infant. 

But someone stole Lily, I think: the first Departure we (almost) saw was an infant; then the baby Jesus goes missing from the manger; then the cave-dweller sucks the eagle's eggs before the snake tries to strangle her baby; then the Snake Woman from the park actually makes off with Lily before abandoning her on the bridge...Someone stole Lily, but I don't think it was Erika. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Pallas
Because Jarden isn't Mapleton, it's Miracle.

[WaltersHair]

I think Nora gave Lilly to Erica.

Nora heard the taped confession of a man that said having a child with his wife wouldn't fix his marriage or give them a new life after one of theirs departed. In the finale of the second season she's told by several people the baby isn't hers.

This show can be mysterious and convoluted. And then it will plant a few anvils around the script. I think Lilly is an anvil.

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I think Nora gave Lilly to Erica.

A gesture worthy of the Guilty Remnant. Worse than paying someone to shoot you in the Kevlar vest, or self-asphyxiating before overtime, since the victim is the baby. I'd have thought the return of the three girls would have calmed Nora's furious terror that she is a lens. But Stella and you may be right: Nora's despair could have seeped up to that level, deceitfully and silently as Kevin's. If this is what happens, I suppose Nora might explain to her family and Erika,  "It felt like it was meant to be." 

[WearyTraveler]

12 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm also surprised that they didn't fill in that crater .... in 3 years.

I think that was not done on purpose in order to:

1. Warn any other groups who might attempt something similar in Jarden
2. Have a sort of "tourist attraction" to keep people (and their money) coming into town

[Cardie]

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

since the victim is the baby.

Lily has grown up with Erika next door as her de facto auntie. Given all the tension in the Nora-Kevin household, Lily might be happier and feel more stable with Erika and out of Jarden. I'm sure that would have been the argument, at least.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Leftovers Preaches The Gospel Of Kevin

The prestige show has always left Adam Grosswirth a little cold, but he's warming up to it right before its expiration date.

[Pallas]

3 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Lily has grown up with Erika next door as her de facto auntie. Given all the tension in the Nora-Kevin household, Lily might be happier and feel more stable with Erika and out of Jarden. I'm sure that would have been the argument, at least.

Perhaps. But to whoever would make that argument I would reply, Babies aren't guppies. Lily came to Jarden bonded to Nora, Jill and Kevin. If Lily was taken from Jarden soon after the storming of the bridge, she and Erika had laid eyes on each other two or three times in two or three weeks. Erika's a newly-twice-bereaved, newly-separated single, working, stranger making her way on her own in the world for the first time; she remained with a man who "just likes to hit people" and was the town's go-to-fixer if her husband put your face through glass. Her father and son killed and buried Lily's father (for his own good, to be sure). She raised her children in a household that drove one to fundamentalism and the other to the Guilty Remnant. I love her, and John too -- but I don't see how she has the edge.

[Domestic Assassin]

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Lily has grown up with Erika next door as her de facto auntie. Given all the tension in the Nora-Kevin household, Lily might be happier and feel more stable with Erika and out of Jarden. I'm sure that would have been the argument, at least.

Lily and her parents lived next door to Erika for a few months, and the Garvey/Dursts and the Murphys weren't exactly best friends.  Sure, Nora may empathize with Erika losing a daughter, but "here, take mine" would not be a logical response to that.

[Shermie]

I'm rewatching the ep and the arrogance of that pioneer family at the beginning to give their goat to their neighbour before the alleged Rapture. Like, they're so sure they're going to heaven and the neighbour isn't? I thought only God knows what's in people's hearts. 

Plus, why climb on the roof? Do they think God can't reach them if they wait on the porch? Or were they being a little too Pharisee by showing off their supposed great faith?

[maystone]

On 2017-04-20 at 2:01 AM, Pallas said:

The website Michael was reviewing when Kevin first came by the church was The Mapleton Gazette. Research, I assume. And perhaps how Dean knew where to find Kevin: Matt could have called to interview him about Patty.

Erika lost her father and her daughter within 36 hours but even so, I don't see her as someone who would come unhinged with grief and steal an infant. She's made of stern stuff. While she was in med school, she married the man her father molested; while her husband was in prison for trying to kill her father, she stayed married to him and raised twins alone. Evie's death allowed Erika to finally leave John and Jarden. She'd told Nora that she knew Michael's faith would sustain him but that "Evie would never understand why I left." (The irony in Erika and Evie's last exchange, on the bridge. Erika, beseeching Evie: "I don't understand!" Evie, written, to Erika: "You understand.") She didn't need another baby; she finally needed out. Free, and not on the run from the police, while caring for an infant. 

But someone stole Lily, I think: the first Departure we (almost) saw was an infant; then the baby Jesus goes missing from the manger; then the cave-dweller sucks the eagle's eggs before the snake tries to strangle her baby; then the Snake Woman from the park actually makes off with Lily before abandoning her on the bridge...Someone stole Lily, but I don't think it was Erika. 

I'd completely forgotten the backstory on Erika and John. Thanks for the reminder. And it just underlines my surprise/confusion that Laurie is with someone as fractured as John is. Although given the mental state of the male characters in general, maybe he's not that far off the wall.

You know, based on Nora's demeanor, I just can't believe that Lily was stolen. She comes across as wistful but resigned when she's around Noah. Nora Durst is not a quitter; if her daughter went missing - not departed - she would never give up until she found Lily. S3 would open with Nora on the road searching for her daughter. I think that whatever happened to Lily, Nora knows why she's gone.

[Juliegirlj]

I think that Nora is resigned to the fact that she is meant to be childless. With the threat of another departure she thought Erika a better choice to raise Lily. Even though Erica and Nora were not BFF's, they shared a mutual respect and bond. 

Seeing Nora as Sarah in the future, without Kevin, and denying knowledge of him made me so sad. 

[maystone]

12 hours ago, Shermie said:

I'm rewatching the ep and the arrogance of that pioneer family at the beginning to give their goat to their neighbour before the alleged Rapture. Like, they're so sure they're going to heaven and the neighbour isn't? I thought only God knows what's in people's hearts. 

Plus, why climb on the roof? Do they think God can't reach them if they wait on the porch? Or were they being a little too Pharisee by showing off their supposed great faith?

That's not arrogance, imho, that's faith. They believe they'll be going to heaven because they believe they're going to heaven. That very night. Like God promised. The whole village could be taken up, too, if they only believed. That little family is positively joyful when they're giving away their belongings; they're not smug.

I've only seen the beginning once, so maybe you can help me out. On their second attempt, was there a second family standing on another rooftop also waiting? I thought I saw that.

I don't know why they had to dress in white and climb on the roof. I'd guess that the pastor of their church set the protocols. I assume that they're naked under the robes (leaving all their earthly possessions behind), and the roof thing was both a public show of faith and a literal "nearer my God to Thee" position.

Those four or five white-clad bodies in the church when the wife walks in, did anyone else think that they were suicides?

[Juliegirlj]

Huge WTF moment when Norah has Kevin scratching her back.... If Kevin blows the dog whistle will she come running?! 

[Clanstarling]

27 minutes ago, maystone said:

That's not arrogance, imho, that's faith. They believe they'll be going to heaven because they believe they're going to heaven. That very night. Like God promised. The whole village could be taken up, too, if they only believed. That little family is positively joyful when they're giving away their belongings; they're not smug.

I've only seen the beginning once, so maybe you can help me out. On their second attempt, was there a second family standing on another rooftop also waiting? I thought I saw that.

I don't know why they had to dress in white and climb on the roof. I'd guess that the pastor of their church set the protocols. I assume that they're naked under the robes (leaving all their earthly possessions behind), and the roof thing was both a public show of faith and a literal "nearer my God to Thee" position.

Those four or five white-clad bodies in the church when the wife walks in, did anyone else think that they were suicides?

What I remember seeing, is multiple families on their roofs on the first attempt, fewer on the second, and then none but the woman on the third (if there was another attempt, I've forgotten it.)

Yes, I thought they were suicides as well.

These kinds of cults still exist - there was one in the early 2000's, I think (time slips away), whose leader predicted the same thing, and then when it didn't happen, predicted another date, after which I believe he lost most (but not all) of his believers. Like the woman with the goat, many of them gave away all their earthly goods (money, cars, homes) and then were left with nothing. Before their predicted doomsday, they bought billboards (in my state anyway) trying to get followers.

[Juliegirlj]

In the season 2 finale Nora hears a man on the radio talking about the young child he and his wife lost in The Departure, and that he wants to have another child now but his wife refused and left him because of it. The radio preacher told him that "the thing inside each of us that allows us to love is broken in her". Having another baby won't fix what is broken in her, but Jesus will. Norah responds violently to this dialogue and smashes the radio and yells " fix that Jesus"!! An earthquake follows and Mary awoke from her coma. 

Perhaps Nora became resigned to the fact that her ability to love and mother a child is gone. 

Does anyone else wonder if Mary will slip back into her fugue state once she leaves Jardin? 

[RadiantAerynSun]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

These kinds of cults still exist - there was one in the early 2000's, I think (time slips away), whose leader predicted the same thing, and then when it didn't happen, predicted another date, after which I believe he lost most (but not all) of his believers. Like the woman with the goat, many of them gave away all their earthly goods (money, cars, homes) and then were left with nothing. Before their predicted doomsday, they bought billboards (in my state anyway) trying to get followers.

I think that was Harold Camping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_end_times_prediction

Pretty sure he was the one who had billboards all over. I also happened upon his radio show once or twice when driving in the middle of nowhere at night.  I believe on the day in question I was at a dog show - nothing happened. I had passed a billboard about it on the way through Philadelphia that day.

[Clanstarling]

47 minutes ago, RadiantAerynSun said:

I think that was Harold Camping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_end_times_prediction

Pretty sure he was the one who had billboards all over. I also happened upon his radio show once or twice when driving in the middle of nowhere at night.  I believe on the day in question I was at a dog show - nothing happened. I had passed a billboard about it on the way through Philadelphia that day.

Yep, that's the one, thanks! For some reason I remembered that the second date was in October.

[ShellSeeker]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yep, that's the one, thanks! For some reason I remembered that the second date was in October.

My husband and I got a huge laugh out of the original prediction of May 21, since that is our anniversary.

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What I remember seeing, is multiple families on their roofs on the first attempt, fewer on the second, and then none but the woman on the third (if there was another attempt, I've forgotten it.)

Yes, that's what I remember too, and then the lone woman getting the side eye from the other people in town since she was the only one who still believed that the rapture (or whatever they were calling it) was a real thing.

[maystone]

About 15 years ago I did a solo drive from Boston to Nerinx, KY.  Once I got past Ohio, along the highway I came across three giant crosses on a hill, and later I saw what sure looked like the beginning of a life-sized recreation of Noah's ark. (I've since discovered that the crosses were probably one of the Coffindaffer crosses and that ark was on its way to becoming a big tourist site.) Toward central KY I was shunted off the highway by a terrible accident, and I found myself driving through small towns and neighborhoods. I was actually shocked to see the number of flags or banners on people's front porches or in their yards proclaiming that the End Days were upon us and the wait was nearly over, so hallelujah we're going home. I don't mean shocked as in disgusted or angry, I mean shocked as in "Whoa. People are hoping for the end of the world." You just didn't see that kind of public declaration in New England, or at least not at that time.

The Leftovers since S2 is bringing me all kinds of flashbacks to driving through that part of the country. S1 was for the most part a secular reaction to the Sudden Departure, but S2 and certainly the start of S3 is wading deeper into theological waters. In S1 we heard about religious cults and saw news clips of heated religious debates, but outside of Matt everyone else seemed to be trying to find a way through it without a reliance on religion. Now? Not so much. I was just gobsmacked by that cold open, and I mean that in the best possible way. And now we're heavily into prophecy, and Matthew and Michael and John (we need a Luke and a Mark!) think poor Kevin is this millennium's sacrificial lamb. I can not wait to see how this all plays out. Man, I love this show so much.

[candall]

12 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

...

Seeing Nora as Sarah in the future, without Kevin, and denying knowledge of him made me so sad. 

Not me!  Because I had no idea that was Nora.

My facial recognition skills are even worse than I thought.

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, candall said:

Not me!  Because I had no idea that was Nora.

My facial recognition skills are even worse than I thought.

I didn't either - and even going back and looking at the photo, now that I know it - still doesn't say Nora to me. Yet, I recognized her in a minor walk on role in something we watched the other day. Go figure.

[candall]

@Clanstarling: 

Good, thanks.  I can't really make "Nora" materialize from the still photo of "Sara," either. 

[Juliegirlj]

Did anyone understand what the nun gave Sarah ( Norah) as payment for the doves? Am I crazy to think it was rope and duct tape?!?! 

[Domestic Assassin]

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I think that Nora is resigned to the fact that she is meant to be childless. With the threat of another departure she thought Erika a better choice to raise Lily. Even though Erica and Nora were not BFF's, they shared a mutual respect and bond. 

Mutual respect and bond?  They threw rocks though each other's windows.  Their feelings toward each other were complicated to put it mildly.  Nora bonded with Lily.  She and Kevin adopted Lily, they are her parents and they take that seriously.  And what would indicate that Erika would even want another child?  She was planning to leave her family when Evie disappeared, and she has a lot of guilty feelings over that.  She's grieving the loss of Evie, when their relationship was in a very difficult place at the time of her death.  Another child would not make that all better.  Lily isn't just a consolation prize for grieving mothers. 

[xaxat]

My favorite moment was when Kevin confronted Michael, John and Matt about the "gospel". As each one of them talked about inexplicable events that they had personally witnessed, I was thinking "You know, I can totally understand their case." 

On 4/17/2017 at 4:42 PM, meep.meep said:

So have the Guilty Reminders gone from white to orange?

The shirts appropriated the look of Shepard Fairey's iconic "Hope" poster.

Which is surely ironic given that the GR embraces the exact opposite of that.

Edited April 22, 2017 by xaxat

[Razzberry]

[Pallas]

On 4/21/2017 at 10:33 AM, Juliegirlj said:

In the season 2 finale Nora hears a man on the radio talking about the young child he and his wife lost in The Departure, and that he wants to have another child now but his wife refused and left him because of it. The radio preacher told him that "the thing inside each of us that allows us to love is broken in her". Having another baby won't fix what is broken in her, but Jesus will. Norah responds violently to this dialogue and smashes the radio and yells " fix that Jesus"!! An earthquake follows and Mary awoke from her coma. 

Perhaps Nora became resigned to the fact that her ability to love and mother a child is gone. 

I think that Nora, half-listening to the radio broadcast as she searched for what she'd need to care for Mary, saw Kevin as he-who-cannot-love-again. It's Kevin who showed up late for the custody hearing (because he was trying to get himself arrested for Patti's murder), Kevin who left Lily behind on the hood of his truck (as he continued to argue with Patti), Kevin who kept having frustrated tantrums as the walls closed in on him in Mapleton or Jarden; Kevin who kept escaping solo: physically, as soon as her eyes were closed, or emotionally, even with Nora right beside him. When Nora left after Kevin told her about Patti, she didn't go alone: she took with her an infant and a comatose adult.

Nora's fear was that she was responsible for her own anguish. Not only her own -- perhaps all of Mapleton's, if she'd unwittingly acted as a "lens" for the Departure phenomena and so, harmed everyone she knew. Nora's guilt was not only that she'd survived, but that while she'd lost more than anyone, she'd also come out ahead: freed of the unfaithful mate; freed to work full-time; paired with one of Jennifer Aniston's husbands; and awarded one bonanza for her loss (benefits from DDS), then another for having caused it (the sale of her house). 

But in the finale, Nora is the mainstay. On a sunny October 14th, while Nora is cleaning up around her, Mary awakes in Nora's presence, and stays awake. Nora then takes Mary across the bridge and witnesses the three girls emerge from the trailer: more evidence that Nora is not, in fact, a lens for loss. And after that, Nora's daughter is snatched but saved from the trampling herd, with her, by Tommy. And then the extended Garvey/Durst family reunites and waits for Kevin at Nora's house: Kevin's daughter Jill, Kevin's long-lost (adopted) son Tommy, Kevin's ex-wife/Jill's mother/Tommy's mother Laurie; Nora's brother Matt; and Nora's sister-in-law, the newly-conscious and pregnant Mary. Nora is the "love (who) lies waiting."

At the end of season 1, on Nora's way out of town, it was finding Lily that transformed her; it was Lily who reconciled Nora with God or life or fate. For Nora to abandon Lily months or years later would be a greater act of despair than hiring prostitutes to shoot her. Who would let her do it: Matt the pastor, Laurie the shrink, Jill the sister, Kevin the father, or Tommy the protector, midwife and guardian?

It's still possible though, I suppose. Kevin is now self-asphyxiating to Simon and Garfunkel, not having epiphanies; meanwhile, we don't know where Nora's riding off to, in Miracle. It could even be Erika's new home in Virgil's trailer. Like any couple, Kevin and Nora have secrets again, about what they each believe no one else can bear.

[Macbeth]

On 4/17/2017 at 0:53 PM, Helena Dax said:

I doubt Kevin is the new Messiah, but there's certainly something odd going on with him and I'd really like to know why. I could deal with the lack of explanation for the Departure in season one, and the ambiguity about his "hallucinations", that's fair game, but once you start to come back from the dead, some sort of explanation must be given, imo.

I agree, but given this is Lindelof's ("Lost") show - I don't expect one coming.  He is way too pretentious for me.  I got sucked into watching S2 during the week, didn't realize it was one of his shows,  and I now I am faced with the Gospel of Kevin.  Like the warning labels on cigarettes, Lindelof's shows should be marked with a similar warning.

Well I am here for the duration.

[Shermie]

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That's not arrogance, imho, that's faith. They believe they'll be going to heaven because they believe they're going to heaven.

Faith is believing you're going to heaven. Arrogance is being so sure your neighbour isn't going to heaven that you give him your goat to take care of when you go.

[quangtran]

On 20/04/2017 at 4:01 PM, Pallas said:

she married the man her father molested

I always got the impression that Erika was the one who was molested, especially the season 2 finale where John dismisses Kevin assumption that Virgil did something to him and the confirmation that Virgil is Erika's father.

[RedHackle]

There were two things I missed from this episode I'm hoping someone else caught; one, I thought Kevin burned the book of Kevin on the bbq grill. Did anyone see him pull it off the fire, and if so, how did I miss that?

Two, Laurie and John - were they putting the money from the readings into a shredder, or into a bill counter? I thought it was a shredder but that wouldn't make much sense. I mean, I guess I kind of get it - they can only convince people the readings they're doing are real if they charge them but I'm not sure I buy that.  Also, why bother - is it that important to validate people believing in an afterlife? This is a real question from me, not rhetorical.  I've never seen a need for proof either way. Most people believe what they believe (either that there is, or that there isn't) and don't need proof.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, RedHackle said:

There were two things I missed from this episode I'm hoping someone else caught; one, I thought Kevin burned the book of Kevin on the bbq grill. Did anyone see him pull it off the fire, and if so, how did I miss that?

Two, Laurie and John - were they putting the money from the readings into a shredder, or into a bill counter? I thought it was a shredder but that wouldn't make much sense. I mean, I guess I kind of get it - they can only convince people the readings they're doing are real if they charge them but I'm not sure I buy that.  Also, why bother - is it that important to validate people believing in an afterlife? This is a real question from me, not rhetorical.  I've never seen a need for proof either way. Most people believe what they believe (either that there is, or that there isn't) and don't need proof.

I think I remember him pulling it off, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Yep, it was a shredder. I think it was so they could pretned to themselves they weren't scam artists. made no sense.

[Domestic Assassin]

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There were two things I missed from this episode I'm hoping someone else caught; one, I thought Kevin burned the book of Kevin on the bbq grill. Did anyone see him pull it off the fire, and if so, how did I miss that?

He hesitated before throwing it in the fire (and didn't throw it), and then got distracted by the skywriting.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On May 10, 2017 at 2:41 PM, RedHackle said:

There were two things I missed from this episode I'm hoping someone else caught; one, I thought Kevin burned the book of Kevin on the bbq grill. Did anyone see him pull it off the fire, and if so, how did I miss that?

Two, Laurie and John - were they putting the money from the readings into a shredder, or into a bill counter? I thought it was a shredder but that wouldn't make much sense. I mean, I guess I kind of get it - they can only convince people the readings they're doing are real if they charge them but I'm not sure I buy that.  Also, why bother - is it that important to validate people believing in an afterlife? This is a real question from me, not rhetorical.  I've never seen a need for proof either way. Most people believe what they believe (either that there is, or that there isn't) and don't need proof.

I'm pretty much agnostic and I go back & forth as far as there is or there isn't....and sometimes I think I'd like some proof either way. But mostly I think if there isn't, I better not waste my time thinking about it if this is it. 

But, yeah, there are some of us who would like some proof if it was available. 

[Penman61]

My brain can't figure this out:  In the flashforward at the end of this episode, w/Sarah, what is the process and purpose of the carrier doves and the messages?

I don't mean "What does this system tell us about this story?"  I mean, "How would this system work in real life or any story?"  Sarah is the clearinghouse for ALL messages?  The nice church lady takes back all of the doves and then...does what with them?

Thanks for any illumination.  Bonus points for infographics or animatics. :)

[shapeshifter]

On May 28, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Penman61 said:

My brain can't figure this out:  In the flashforward at the end of this episode, w/Sarah, what is the process and purpose of the carrier doves and the messages?

I don't mean "What does this system tell us about this story?"  I mean, "How would this system work in real life or any story?"  Sarah is the clearinghouse for ALL messages?  The nice church lady takes back all of the doves and then...does what with them?

Thanks for any illumination.  Bonus points for infographics or animatics. :)

On the "Certified" thread:

On May 27, 2017 at 9:40 AM, maystone said:

. . . I keep thinking about the opening scene of The Book of Kevin. People are communicating through carrier doves; that could mean other forms of high-speed comm no long exist or maybe it's some sort of New New Age fad. Future Nora is hauling many cages of birds on a bike. Factories, cars, fossil fuels are gone or is Nora just enjoying the exercise and the simple life? And the name Kevin appears to carry some resonance with this nun. Is it a religious totem now? A name of infamy? Or is the nun onto Nora's true past and is trying to nudge her to acknowledge it or maybe even just to remember it? It's making me crazy. Especially because Certified ended so quietly and with so much acceptance on each of the character's parts. Obviouslythat'snot gonna last long. This is our calm before the storm.

and I replied:

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This could be Nora/Sarah's future version of her mission to squelch all false hope (in her opinion) beliefs and communications of those beliefs regarding the original event. If Australia remains cut off from the rest of the world, hopeful left-behinders may believe that their loved ones are in Australia, and carrier pigeon messages have become big business in support of that (false) hope. 
Maybe John is gathering as many pigeons as he can too, but sending them back with fake responses from the intended receivers of those messages, just like he and Laurie were doing with the palm print readings.

Edited May 30, 2017 by shapeshifter

[BooBear]

On 4/19/2017 at 11:32 PM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I wasn't ever 100% sure that Dean wasn't a hallucination in Kevin's mind, so seeing him again and knowing other characters saw him, too, at least cleared it up for me that he was real person.

A little late chiming in... I am watching late. But I was surprised there wasn't mention of this. I have always felt that season two on - it is like the creators are going out of their way to "kill" season one and shape those lame storylines into something that works in this post season one story. Love that Dean is real, Kevin is so healed that he knows this guy is crazy, and that Tommy killed him. Done!

Another weird thing I thought was that Kevin (chief of police) is totally ok with Laurie and John scamming people. That was odd. 

I just love this show. It is like the creators take bigger ideas they have wanted to explore and use this storyline as the outlet for them.  I enjoy their high minded exploration via characters who are interesting as well. 

I terribly enjoyed watching the GR die and especially Evie. I think it is realistic. Miracle was a national park and a very beloved place after the departure. No way they would just let that stand.