S01.E07: You Get What You Need

[Keepitmoving]

2 minutes ago, Teddybear said:

Yes I loved it too.  And her tennis serve guttural grunt "agh!" when she pushed him was perfect!  

I'm mad that so many people showed up to that asshole's funeral.  

I know and Jane was there, ugh. But I thought it was to keep up appearances. Especially since it seemed like they were being watched by that detective. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[lovinbob]

2 minutes ago, Teddybear said:

I'm mad that so many people showed up to that asshole's funeral.  

Funeral to show support and respect for the boys and Celeste, not for Perry.

[pbutler111]

1 minute ago, kjwillis93 said:

Second, and I might be reaching here, but did anyone else catch the scene between Tom (the barista) and Gordon (Renata's husband) where Tom raises his glass at Gordon, and Gordon responses by doing the same and winking at him? I couldn't help but catch the vibe that maybe Tom and Gordon were lovers. Tom might be closeted (and therefore Madeline wasn't too off base by claiming he was gay), and Gordon having an affair isn't that much of a stretch to me. Everyone seemed to have these scandalous secrets, so that was Gordon's. (And, I'd argue that this wasn't explored much beyond that because it wasn't really relevant to the plot that was unfolding). 

You may want to watch that again.  Gordon didn't raise his glass at Tom, he made a gun with his hand and "shot" him.  Not a come on, more like a threat.

[humbleopinion]

The children had a conspiracy of silence to protect Max.

Ziggy took the fall, metaphorically.

The women have a conspiracy of silence to protect Bonnie.

Perry took the fall, literally... into a piece of rebar.

Individual therapy for everyone.

[SueB]

What a powerful series. I binged watched all of it yesterday in time to see the finale. Never read the book  unspoiled for the whole thing.

Couple of thoughts:

- I buy Jane finding the best public school, realitively close to her family in Santa Cruz, and moving there.  Normally a Jane would have no relationship with the uber-wealthy but the kids all at the exceptional public school created a unique circumstance. My sisters kids went to a similar unusual school.  I saw a LOT of parallel behavior from the Moms.

- I pegged Perry for the rapist when we saw the rape flashback.  His brutal 'coitus from behind' was all about power and indifference to the woman. Plus he was about the initial grand romantic gestures. Now add to that, when Ziggy was first accused, I thought it might be one of the twins because they kinda looked like Ziggy (except buzz cut).  And I assumed Amabelke pick someone similar but a stranger to the school. As for motive, I think children as an extension of himself, were a priority to Perry.  Subsequently, I expect he was more gentle with Celeste after the first few miscarriages and that's part of why he went on the prowl looking for a rough sex hookups.  But his victim of choice is actually a nicer person drawn in by the initial 'romance'.  I suspect Perry would never had labeled it rape because Perry's narcissistic personality probably cast himself as the martyr for giving up violent sex while Celeste was trying to conceive or after pregnant.  I don't think he cheated on her once he had her back to being his bedroom 'buddy'. So the age of the kids tracked for me.  

- In one of Amabelle's flashbacks they showed a kid poking a dead rabbit.  I figured the bully killed the rabbit.  I actually thought it was both twins.  

I freakin' LOVED Bonnie being the one to push Perry.  She struck me as someone who had a lot of self-empowerment.  And I don't know her because ok backstory but in this episode, I thought she twigged on the fear vibe of Celeste and her instincts are what drove her.  She saw a predator killing his wife and she went in with full power.   No hesitation.  I think Bonnie saw the glaring wrong and power imbalance and just leapt into the fray.  I don't know if she even thought about the stairs.  

- I also think the women were smart to cover it up.  The cops talked about Celest STILL being declared guilty of manslaughter.  Bonnie would have been separated from her child if she was convicted.   Those Moms weren't about to let that happen.  Honestly, I would have thought it was justifiable homicide but I can understand them not taking the risk or putting their families through the drama.  

- Final bits:

-- Up until he turned into an asshole, I could relate to Madelynn falling for Santiago Cabrera.  Because DAHMN.  Plus like she indicated to Abigail, she put herself under too much pressure on herself and that's part of why she was attracted to the forbidden. 

-- I liked that Abagail wiser up.  I agree it was likely Ed who talked her out of it.  Ed really ha Madelynn's back IMO.  

--Tom is not gay and into Jane!

-- All the awards to Nicole!

[Ms Blue Jay]

16 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

You may want to watch that again.  Gordon didn't raise his glass at Tom, he made a gun with his hand and "shot" him.  Not a come on, more like a threat.

Yes, a threat because he promised Tom he'd get revenge on him for kicking him out of his coffee bar.

At first I thought the detective and Greek chorus were so, so stupid too but then by the end of the show I came to appreciate everything.  The actor who played the detective had a very thankless role though.  In the end the Greek chorus was a nice way to make this WASPY-seeming show actually very diverse.  And they were to inject humour which I guess sometimes they did.

I didn't find Joseph to be an asshole.  Well, to his wife, yes, but not to Maddie.  With Maddie he was burned and brokenhearted.

Perry was so creepy.  He was so fake and manipulative.  After beating the shit out of Celeste the next day he's like "I won't leave you alone until you kiss me."  Ewwwwwwwww.  Also if this jackoff was constantly running around the house screaming at MY kids, lol, omg I'd want to kick him out so badly.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[eastcoastress]

5 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

The children had a conspiracy of silence to protect Max.

Ziggy took the fall, metaphorically.

The women have a conspiracy of silence to protect Bonnie.

Perry took the fall, literally... into a piece of rebar.

Individual therapy for everyone.

I think you are onto something here. I believe the children are, to a degree, mirrors of their parents/households.  They definitely are huge catalysts & connection points for the entire narrative. 

Madeline is 'drawn to damaged people' (Chloe's easy, genuine way with Ziggy--not that Ziggy is damaged but a smart kid with heavy thoughts), Chloe's quick wit & overspoken-ness)

Amabella's more reserved, probably absorbing all the self-fulfilling negativity of her mother (Renata). That is one oppressive, anxiety-filled household! Of course, now that I type that, all the households are--perhaps even Skye's due to what emotions Bonnie has to rein in and all that passive-aggressive nonsense of Nathan's. 

Skye is often overlooked probably because she is purposely kept out of the shenanigans from a mom who likes things chill and quiet, and who is reacting from Maddy's attitude toward that family. You tend to forget about Skye's presence just as we'd tend to forget about Bonnie, always on the periphery!

The twins, well obviously Max absorbing the negative energy from his dad...but also they are kept rather separated from school friends due to Perry's controlling ways. And most likely because Celeste doesn't want anyone to potentially witness what's happening in her home. The boys were almost cypher-like from the start as they were part of the mystery. 

Ziggy is there to be the reminder of his mother's secret. It was all crushing down upon Jane because Ziggy is getting older & more curious...he is asking more and more questions (which is natural for his age) but also serves to further his Jane's plot as she is reliving everything, growing more anxious. But Ziggy is also a question mark because of his origins (just as his mother's backstory was to be a mystery). 

And the children *together* have their own world, outside of their parents.  The abuse/bullying, the secrets, the bonds, perhaps even the jealousies, and whatever else is transpiring within school walls, or wherever they are outside of parental supervision. 

[mochamajesty]

20 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

I really appreciate your posts, mochamajesty, and am not trying to argue but rather to understand. 

I guess my reaction is that a deeply flawed human being (whose behavior is criminal and completely unacceptable) is more realistic than a straight-up monster. (Perhaps this generalization is not accurate, but I've known people whose behavior under certain conditions has been akin to Perry's. Not physically abusive but emotionally so.) Worth exploring? That's in the eye of the beholder, but for me it is worth portraying because it's a dynamic that I believe actually exists. 

With that in mind, though, I found it empowering and absolutely worth portraying that Celeste told Perry she was leaving him and was sticking to her guns even while admitting that part of her hoped he would change. She hoped, but she knew that she could not wait around for it.

I am not knowledgable about the research and am just reacting to the conversation I've heard on these boards. I would *hope* that someone like Perry, if he were truly motivated to change, could be medicated to control his moods and his actions, and could also engage in ongoing therapy. Not sure if that kind of treatment would work. 

*And also, I should have said in my original statement that you quoted--not that the "wounded child" inside of the abuser should actually expect help from his victim, but the abuser wants that kind of help, in that magical thinking way that kids have. The victim can't help; the abuser needs to fix himself. 

I appreciate your posts as well lovinbob. It may not seem like it, but I do enjoy this discussion.

This exchange has made me think - and I thank you for overlooking my impatience and frustration.

I will say that I am extremely biased. I will also say that - and this flies in the face of my critical thinking class - that an opinion can be 'wrong'. That is where most of my frustration comes from.

Perry is now proven to be a rapist and an abuser. Yet, the writers want us to believe that he is not a monster?

How far, exactly, does compassion go?  Rape? Abuse? Two acts that Perry are guilty of.  Sexual abusers are even less likely to change - although I think that may be pedophilia (cannot research right now).

Therapists say that a small amount of abusers change. My question:  how large is the sample size? How many abusers actually seek therapy?  A small percentage of how many?

The danger with showing compassion is that leads to 'One more chance.'.  And we all know the danger of that.

Not sure about meds - maybe a psychologist can chime in?  And Perry has to take them.  And we know how vain/proud he is.  "I don't need medication!".  Perry may not allow anything to control him - even medication.

[Keepitmoving]

Hell we talk about Celeste wanting to believe Perry could be fixed, hoping for a fix, but look at Jane. Jane said deep down there was a part of her that was wishing that Ziggy's father just had, had a bad day, the night he raped her. Nope, she did not say that she wished his father was someone else, she said she wished that the man who raped her, was deep down somewhere inside, a good person. Of course that's all about her son Ziggy I believe and not wanting to think about how half his chromosomes come from someone who has absolutely no redeeming qualities but...

[film noire]

7 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Also not sure WHY DID THEY NOT TELL THE TRUTH? No one was going to get in trouble for the truth. It would have been dropped charges, or completely unconvictable in a court. "This person was beating the shit out of his wife, at the top of a set of stairs, we were all struggling to try to stop him but couldn't, then she came down the steps and pushed him. He fell down the steps, ironically tripping over the crumpled beaten body of his wife on the way down." "Case dismissed." 

 

I wouldn't tell the truth. I'd be terrified the cops would find out about Perry raping Jane, our long time knowledge of that rape (if not the identity of the rapist) and suddenly, we'd look like a conspiracy to kill. (Helen Gamble for the prosecution: "You expect this jury to believe you moved here by accident? You just happened to pick the town your rapist lives in, and accidentally befriended your rapist's wife? How stupid do you think this jury is, Miss Chapman?") And it's not like the American court system isn't full of miscarriages of justice, all too often harassing and disbelieving abused women when they testify as to the hell they've been living through -- no, I'd insist we tell one lie (easier to sustain) than try to juggle several.

I didn't click with Shailene Woodley in the first episode (the part itself felt so untouchable at first) but god, did she pull me in as we went along. And I LOVED the jolt that ran through her when she recognized Perry; that could've been so goddamn hokey, so faked up actressy, but she made if feel like a natural, inevitable reaction. All those dreams and fugue states searching for him, and here the rapist is, in the flesh: JOLT. Such a great moment. (As was the moment of knowing shared by the three women -- twenty seconds and they said it all with their faces -- somewhere, Norma Desmond is saying "told you so.")

Edited April 3, 2017 by film noire

[mochamajesty]

3 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Hell we talk about Celeste wanting to believe Perry could be fixed, hoping for a fix, but look at Jane. Jane said deep down there was a part of her that was wishing that Ziggy's father just had, had a bad day, the night he raped her. Nope, she did not say that she wished his father was someone else, she said she wished that the man who raped her, was deep down somewhere inside, a good person. Of course that's all about her son Ziggy I believe and not wanting to think about how half his chromosomes come from someone who has absolutely no redeeming qualities but...

I do not remember this at all.

But I tend to tune Jane out, so no wonder.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Perry is now proven to be a rapist and an abuser. Yet, the writers want us to believe that he is not a monster?

Because I think sometimes people associate the word monster with not being human, I know I do. It's horrifying to associate the word human with a person who commits certain crimes. It's easier to see them as a monster, therefore, they have no humanity and I think they were trying to keep a focus on Perry being human, but doing horrible things.

It's easier to see for example a mass murderer like Hitler as a monster instead of acknowledging that he was human, because my lord, how can the human heart be so evil? It can't be so. You can't wrap your mind around it, because you think I'm human, so how can "that" be human too? It's a monster, it's not part of my kind, my kind aren't capable of such atrocities. 

9 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I do not remember this at all.

But I tend to tune Jane out, so no wonder.

Yeah, she was talking to Maddie at that coffee shop, I think it was the scene after her fight with Renata. 

[LucyHoneychrrch]

Initially I thought Perry may be worth saving; but the discussion in the car was chilling.  I think he was a pure sociopath, manipulative and seemingly genuine in one moment and absolutely conscienceless the next.  

[mochamajesty]

16 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Because I think sometimes people associate the word monster with not being human, I know I do. It's horrifying to associate the word human with a person who commits certain crimes. It's easier to see them as a monster, therefore, they have no humanity and I think they were trying to keep a focus on Perry being human, but doing horrible things.

It's easier to see for example a mass murderer like Hitler as a monster instead of acknowledging that he was human, because my lord, how can the human heart be so evil? It can't be so. You can't wrap your mind around it, because you think I'm human, so how can "that" be human too? It's a monster, it's not part of my kind, my kind aren't capable of such atrocities. 

Yeah, she was talking to Maddie at that coffee shop, I think it was the scene after her fight with Renata. 

I am trying not to derail the thread (not saying that you are) but I agree with this.

I wanted to cite common examples of monsters like Bundy and Manson.  Are they worthy of being saved?

To bring it home to DV - can OJ be saved? Is there hope?

7 minutes ago, LucyHoneychrrch said:

Initially I thought Perry may be worth saving; but the discussion in the car was chilling.  I think he was a pure sociopath, manipulative and seemingly genuine in one moment and absolutely conscienceless the next.  

That scene in the car made my blood run cold. He literally went through the checklist of excuses/justifications in his head.  I could literally hear him ticking them off one by one.

[AttackTurtle]

Shaillene Woodly did a great job in my opinion of portraying a single mom and goodness the little actor portraying her son was so good.   

I'd like to think that Celeste would have left him permanently had Perry not died; primarily once it was clear that Max was following in his dad's steps.  The scene where she spoke to Max was heartbreaking and then again when she assured him the tooth fairy would come.

I rewatched the fight a few times and as awful as it was, those ladies were not giving up.  You see Madeline and Renata really trying to get him away from Celeste....and Madeline took a shot right away.

[eastcoastress]

2 minutes ago, AttackTurtle said:

The scene where she spoke to Max was heartbreaking and then again when she assured him the tooth fairy would come.

 

This scene was handled very well. Without being too soap-operatic or too on the nose, Celeste is basically telling her young son that  it's ok, honey, you are not your dad. That is not who you will become. Your future is yours alone. (the tooth fairy will come)

Celeste was already in the stages of changing her life but I don't think she fully committed, in her heart of hearts, until it became about her son(s).

[scrb]

They made the performances too good.  Ok we can assume they were practicing with that band before the event?

But the song choices are strange too.  Ed wasn't the only one singing to his wife, a very intimate expression in front of all the town people.

Also, I don't get this "all men are drooling over Bonnie" thing.  She's attractive and younger than most of the women.  She's also fit from that yoga.  But a sexpot?

[stillshimpy]

59 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Perry is now proven to be a rapist and an abuser. Yet, the writers want us to believe that he is not a monster?

I think what you might not be considering is that if Perry can be seen as something other than a complete monster and a sociopath, it makes what he has done worse, not more forgivable, less forgivable.  It is worse.   Much, much worse.  

A sociopath doesn't understand love or remorse.  A true sociopath isn't wracked with guilt while still continuing to do heinous, unforgivable, savage things.   The fact that Perry can feel how terrible and wrong all that he does is, makes him much, much, much fucking worse than if he was just a monster with no feelings or ability to love.  

The fact that he is capable of love but still knocks someone he loves flying routinely, the fact that he possesses love but beats the living shit out of Celeste and rapes Jane does not excuse him, it makes all that he has done worse because somewhere inside, he's capable of feeling a semblance of the real emotion, even if he pollutes and perverts everything about it.  

It's not about "oh the poor wounded creature, I feel for him!" it's about how truly horrible he is because he knows right from wrong and does wrong anyway.   The fact that he is human and basically, people will change as much as they choose.  It's why blackout drunks can become sober advocates.  Can abusers change?  Probably, but I'm sure of one thing: people who are not actual to-the-bone monsters change as much as they want to and are willing.  People who really want to change make sacrifices to do so.  

If he's covered in scales and a Ted Bundy without any humanity then he isn't even capable of fully grasping wrong.  

Perry is worse because he is simply an incredibly damaging, damaged person who understands the enormity of the horror he inflicts and does it anyway.  

It's not a pardon, it's a condemnation. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by stillshimpy

[tennisgurl]

I'm going to miss this show so much! I was really impressed by this series. The early reviews made it sound like some kind of trashy soap opera, but it was much more then that. It was more about the façade people put out to the world, and what happens when the façade crumbles, and how women connect with each other. And despite all the cattiness and competitiveness between the women, they all came together when it counted. And it seems like now they're all going to be friends. Good on them.

Maddie actually got me back on her side when she started crying at Eds song. I've been pretty annoyed with her and her affair, and attempts at justifying it, and it was nice to see her showing real remorse, and realizing what she had with Ed. SO GLAD Ed didn't turn out to be a creep. I was worried a few times that Perry was the rapist red hearing, and they would go with nice guy Ed instead as a twist. His song was pretty good too! And thank god that hair is gone.

So Perry being the rapist/murder victim isn't that much of a surprise, but I think that's alright. Its obvious, but certainly in character for Perry, a control freak who has violent tendencies towards women, and goes on lots of "business trips", so I buy it. Dude is just a total asshole, no matter how hard he tries to play it like he has issues and can be "fixed". He has revealed himself to be an abusive manipulator over and over, and while Celeste might have truly loved him on some level, it seems like their family was a whole lot better off without him. Speaking of, I hope Celeste gets the twins (especially Max) a TON of therapy, and talks with them a lot about what they grew up with. I don't think the twins are doomed to become their father, I think there's still hope for them to become decent people eventually.

Three cheers for the acting from everyone in the cast! Not a weak link among them, even if they had different work loads. I do really hope that AS plays a decent person sometime soon. I'm tired of being conflicted by his characters assholeness, and his hotness! I can only re-watch Generation Kill so many times!

[lovinbob]

42 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Perry is now proven to be a rapist and an abuser. Yet, the writers want us to believe that he is not a monster?

How far, exactly, does compassion go?  Rape? Abuse? Two acts that Perry are guilty of.  Sexual abusers are even less likely to change - although I think that may be pedophilia (cannot research right now).

...

The danger with showing compassion is that leads to 'One more chance.'.  And we all know the danger of that.

Maybe the answer (or, an answer) is that whether or not a person is a "monster" is not really relevant. Regardless of where he comes from, or how he feels after, his actions are actually monstrous, and their impact is monstrous. So for me, I believe that part of Perry is disgusted by himself, and I think it's worth showing that subtlety because I believe it's real. But that knowledge/belief should not be used to excuse his behavior, either by the audience or by the characters in the story.

I like the element of humanity that was portrayed here because it's more powerful that Celeste made the decision that she did than if she were running away from Godzilla or the Billy Zane character from Titanic or Biff from Back to the Future.

[mochamajesty]

2 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I think what you might not be considering is that if Perry can be seen as something other than a complete monster and a sociopath, it makes what he has done worse, not better.  Much, much worse.  

A sociopath doesn't understand love or remorse.  A true sociopath isn't wracked with guilt while still continuing to do heinous, unforgivable, savage things.   The fact that Perry can feel how terrible and wrong all that he does is, makes him much, much, much fucking worse than if he was just a monster with no feelings or ability to love.  

The fact that he is capable of love but still knocks someone he loves flying routinely, the fact that he possesses love but beats the living shit out of Celeste and rapes Jane does not excuse him, it makes all that he has done worse because somewhere inside, he's capable of feeling a semblance of the real emotion, even if he pollutes and perverts everything about it.  

It's not about "oh the poor wounded creature, I feel for him!" it's about how truly horrible he is because he knows right from wrong and does wrong anyway.   The fact that he is human and basically, people will change as much as they choose.  It's why blackout drunks can become sober advocates.  Can abusers change?  Probably, but I'm sure of one thing: people who are not actual to-the-bone monsters change as much as they want to and are willing.  People who really want to change make sacrifices to do so.  

If he's covered in scales and a Ted Bundy with any humanity then he isn't even capable of fully grasping wrong.  

Perry is worse because he is simply an incredibly damaging, damaged person who understands the enormity of the horror he inflicts and does it anyway.  

It's not a pardon, it's a condemnation. 

This is not what people who are giving Perry the benefit of the doubt are saying. You are the first person to express this.

[STOPSHOUTING]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I do really hope that AS plays a decent person sometime soon. I'm tired of being conflicted by his characters assholeness, and his hotness! I can only re-watch Generation Kill so many times!

One word: Tarzan. He takes off his shirt about 15 minutes in and never puts it back on ... Which is basically the only plot. Perfect girls' night fare as the movie's quality improves tremendously with a glass or three of wine. If you don't believe me, check out this (truly hilarious) review: http://www.emilywrites.co.nz/i-saw-tarzan-and-this-is-my-review-after-some-wines/

Edited April 3, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[Cardie]

40 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

It's easier to see them as a monster, therefore,

It was telling that Perry's alternate personality to his kids was "the monster." He too was desperate to establish that this was a character he often played but not the sum total of who he was. Sorry, Perry, too much Method acting on your part.

[madam magpie]

5 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I think what you might not be considering is that if Perry can be seen as something other than a complete monster and a sociopath, it makes what he has done worse, not more forgivable, less forgivable.  It is worse.   Much, much worse.  

A sociopath doesn't understand love or remorse.  A true sociopath isn't wracked with guilt while still continuing to do heinous, unforgivable, savage things.   The fact that Perry can feel how terrible and wrong all that he does is, makes him much, much, much fucking worse than if he was just a monster with no feelings or ability to love.  

The fact that he is capable of love but still knocks someone he loves flying routinely, the fact that he possesses love but beats the living shit out of Celeste and rapes Jane does not excuse him, it makes all that he has done worse because somewhere inside, he's capable of feeling a semblance of the real emotion, even if he pollutes and perverts everything about it.  

It's not about "oh the poor wounded creature, I feel for him!" it's about how truly horrible he is because he knows right from wrong and does wrong anyway.   The fact that he is human and basically, people will change as much as they choose.  It's why blackout drunks can become sober advocates.  Can abusers change?  Probably, but I'm sure of one thing: people who are not actual to-the-bone monsters change as much as they want to and are willing.  People who really want to change make sacrifices to do so.  

If he's covered in scales and a Ted Bundy with any humanity then he isn't even capable of fully grasping wrong.  

Perry is worse because he is simply an incredibly damaging, damaged person who understands the enormity of the horror he inflicts and does it anyway.  

It's not a pardon, it's a condemnation. 

I don't actually think he feels any of that, though. I think he cries, begs, feels, etc. for himself. Celeste, Jane, whatever other women, even the kids, they're nothing but toys, props, or reflections of him. I don't think he has any concept or care for the depth of the horror/trauma he inflicted on Jane, Celeste, or the kids. They mean nothing to him if they aren't supporting him and the image he's crafted for himself.

[mochamajesty]

1 minute ago, madam magpie said:

I don't actually think he feels any of that, though. I think he cries, begs, feels, etc. for himself. Celeste, Jane, whatever other women, even the kids, they're nothing but toys, props, or reflections of him. I don't think he has any concept or care for the depth of the horror/trauma he inflicted on Jane, Celeste, or the kids. They mean nothing to him if they aren't supporting him and the image he's crafted for himself.

I agree. I think it comes down to if you believe Perry feels remorse. I don't. 

[tennisgurl]

2 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Which is basically the only plot. Perfect girls' night fare as the movie's quality improves tremendously with a glass or three of wine.

*runs off to nearest red box and wine store*

Thanks STOPSHOUTING! Your doing the Lords work!

[Keepitmoving]

6 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

One word: Tarzan. He takes off his shirt about 15 minutes in and never puts it back on ... Which is basically the only plot. Perfect girls' night fare as the movie's quality improves tremendously with a glass or three of wine. If you don't believe me, check out this (truly hilarious) review: http://www.emilywrites.co.nz/i-saw-tarzan-and-this-is-my-review-after-some-wines/

Bwaah, hilarious.

I totally enjoyed him on True Blood, totally, because everyone on that show just about were biting into people. He fit right in on that show. I mean on that show he was supposed to be a hot monster, on that show, hot monsters were a thing.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Guest]

I think whether you choose to see abusive men as irredeemable monsters or as deserving as some sympathy is a personal choice not too far from matters of faith so it's hard to argue one view is more right than another.  I don't think anyone who feels some sympathy for the monsters among us is condoning their behavior.  Even the writer and director felt sympathy for Perry.  It might be unpopular or unrealistic but it's not appalling or wrong (in some objective sense), in my opinion.  

[mochamajesty]

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I don't actually think he feels any of that, though. I think he cries, begs, feels, etc. for himself. Celeste, Jane, whatever other women, even the kids, they're nothing but toys, props, or reflections of him. I don't think he has any concept or care for the depth of the horror/trauma he inflicted on Jane, Celeste, or the kids. They mean nothing to him if they aren't supporting him and the image he's crafted for himself.

I remember that scene when he choked Celeste and her son walked in. Remember when Perry was left alone? Why didn't the writers show us his remorse then? Did he cry? No. Perry only shows remorse in front of Celeste to manipulate her.

[feelsfine]

I found a bunch of Audrey and Elvis pics (from the trivia night) side by side with the real actor costumes on Hashed: https://hashed.io/c102/big-little-lies/t2574371/elvis-and-audrey-pics-side-by-side

Edited April 3, 2017 by feelsfine

[STOPSHOUTING]

44 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

*runs off to nearest red box and wine store*

Thanks STOPSHOUTING! Your doing the Lords work!

Make it a double feature with WHAT'S YOUR NUMBER. Ignore the strange, slut-shaming premise and focus on the more "feminist" fact that they got Chris Evans to be, basically, completely naked for about 97% of the film. In more than one scene his wardrobe, I kid you not, is nothing but a washcloth. How that movie didn't win all the Oscars ... ?

And to take it (closer to) back on topic, there was a moment in Big Little Lies when Alexander Skarsgard kneeled down to put his head in Nicole's lap, when asking forgiveness, and he was wearing that tight white tank top/undershirt and I might have said out loud, in my husband's presence, 'Jesus Christ.'

Edited April 3, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[stillshimpy]

18 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

This is not what people who are giving Perry the benefit of the doubt are saying. You are the first person to express this.

I'm also not giving him any benefit of the doubt.    Monsters are rare, deeply flawed and damaging people are less so, in my personal experience and in general.   Percentage of the population that are sociopaths are estimated to be between 3-5%.  Here's one link to a source on that but just run a google search for more.  Don't mistake this for any defense of Perry because it isn't, in my case. 

Percentage of the population that are spousal abusers in some form?  Is much higher.  Estimates between 20-27% percent.   Possibly higher.  

Edited April 3, 2017 by stillshimpy

[spankydoll]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

I know and Jane was there, ugh. But I thought it was to keep up appearances. Especially since it seemed like they were being watched by that detective. 

The funeral was a great day for Jane. I hope that she wore red underwear to celebrate like it was Christmas!

[film noire]

17 hours ago, lovinbob said:

How were Celeste and Jane in the same dress? They both wore black, but I thought jane's was cocktail length and A-line/flared, while Celeste's was floor length and slinky. 

I think the differences are meant to convey not just budget constraints (which is a great touch)  but also something more, perhaps. Audrey Hepburn wears several different black dresses in "Breakfast At Tiffany's" -- the one Kidman wore appears at the top of the movie (when Holly is wandering Fifth Avenue early in the morning, stopping to look in Tiffany's window, as she comes back from one of her "dates").  Later on,  rips to her "date" dresses are mentioned, the result of  manhandling men (the kind of men that give her fifty dollars for the powder room).

The shorter black dresses are worn when Holly's ex husband (a country doctor forty years older than her, that she married at fourteen to protect her younger brother) arrives in town, and when Holly visits a gangster in Sing Sing  (to deliver messages from his criminal cohorts, something Holly isn't exactly aware of, and is paid money to do). So (at least to me, imperfectly, bc/ Jane's accessories aren't exactly similar to the movie) Celeste is both pristine Holly, top of the movie -- all glamour and magic (bruises lurking somewhere underneath) -- and also the Holly who gets attacked by violent men, and Jane is the Holly protecting a younger male figure, who is also around a criminal,  an act that brings her down at the end (briefly, before the happy ending arrives). I don't know if that jibes with the designer's intent, but it's how I read it.  

I also love the two My Fair Lady costumes: Renata in the Ascot Races outfit (a scene in which Eliza drops her ladylike pretense and screams out in her native Cockney -- the real deal coming out, as it does for Renata when she immediately attacks Perry w/o hesitation) and Bonnie in the Embassy Ball dress, the scene of Eliza's elegant, doe-eyed triumph (she pulls off being seen as a lady of quality amid the blue bloods) but the night ends with her in that gown and tiara,  throwing slippers (Jane's shoe prints in the sand?) at Higgins (Perry?) and screaming "I could kill you, you selfish brute!" 

Edited April 3, 2017 by film noire

[Keepitmoving]

21 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I remember that scene when he choked Celeste and her son walked in. Remember when Perry was left alone? Why didn't the writers show us his remorse then? Did he cry? No. Perry only shows remorse in front of Celeste to manipulate her.

I do remember this scene because it stuck out how angry he was, to the point of having to bend over and steady his fist in the wall before picking up his briefcase and leaving that room. It was something to watch, him have to steady himself like that, what anger, it's beyond anger. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sorry if this was already pointed out, but we never actually got to see the reenactment of the mothers' dance and the children's dance from the opening credits, did we?

To go along with what @film noire said, I don't trust the criminal system to "get it right" one bit... no sirree...... 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[VioletMarx]

2 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

The children had a conspiracy of silence to protect Max.

Ziggy took the fall, metaphorically.

 

Amabella and Skye took the fall, literally.

[Ms Blue Jay]

57 minutes ago, scrb said:

Also, I don't get this "all men are drooling over Bonnie" thing.  She's attractive and younger than most of the women.  She's also fit from that yoga.  But a sexpot?

Not to take away anything from Zoe's looks, but I will have to assume some of those men are sad and desperate, LOL. They'll take what eye candy they can get.

I assume Bonnie and Jane are supposed to be around the same age, but Bonnie carries herself very differently.  She's all glowy and always looks like she just finished working out.  She shows more skin.  She oozes more confidence.

Quote

Speaking of men ... Did anyone else notice that every woman, sans Bonnie, was married to a man significantly younger than she and it was NEVER EVER MENTIONED, not even by the catty Greek Chorus? That struck me as ... unbelievable. Because if there's one thing the claws would be out for (like the "trying too hard" comment on Reese's Audrey costume) it would be that.

It was mentioned with Celeste and Perry, likely in the first episode.  In real life, Adam Scott is older than Reese, so there is no confirmation that the show is portraying Madeleine as older than Ed.  I'll assume it's the same case with Renata and Gordon.

Thank you, @feelsfine.

44 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

One word: Tarzan. He takes off his shirt about 15 minutes in and never puts it back on ... Which is basically the only plot. Perfect girls' night fare as the movie's quality improves tremendously with a glass or three of wine. If you don't believe me, check out this (truly hilarious) review: http://www.emilywrites.co.nz/i-saw-tarzan-and-this-is-my-review-after-some-wines/

I'm sold.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

50 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm going to miss this show so much! I was really impressed by this series. The early reviews made it sound like some kind of trashy soap opera, but it was much more then that. 

I noticed that too.  Sexism on the part of most critics because it's a show led by women.  I notice some men on social media saying that they like the show but couching it with shit like "But I never watch shows like this....."

@STOPSHOUTING, I used Wikipedia as my references.  Adam Scott is 1973 and Reese is 1976, unless you believe differently.  Adam Scott turns 44 today.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[STOPSHOUTING]

3 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

@STOPSHOUTING, I used Wikipedia as my references.  Adam Scott is 1973 and Reese is 1976, unless you believe differently.

I had Googled while watching and thought I'd read he is 36 and she is 41. My bad.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Adam Scott the Australian professional golfer is indeed 36 ;)

[susannot]

Fantastic post FILMNOIRE.  I hoped that a film buff would weigh in on the costumes.  Renata's was a perfect duplicate of the Ascot costume and she must have spent a ton of money on it.  Hope it didn't get too dirty from her grappling with Perry.  She was the tallest of the women, wasn't she?  I feel sure that she landed some solid blows.  In one of his interviews (it was on Vulture)  AS said that one of the women jumped on his back, and one attacked his legs.  I think Renata was the one who jumped on his back, though that fight scene was very confusing.

[Gem 10]

This was one of the best series I've seen along with Downton Abby and The Affair.  The acting, the scenery, the clothes and the kids were amazing.  I will really miss Chole .. She was a hoot.  When Adam Scott sang "The Wonder of You, I actually cried.  The finale with Perry dying and the women coming together was the way it should have been.  I did read somewhere, however that Reese Witherspoon was angry with Nicole because she didn't promote the series as much as she should have.  I will miss this show and the girls.  There should be more good t.v. as this instead of all this other crap we're subjected to.

[sasha206]

2 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

Perry didn't actually run exactly on track with the typical abuser, since he never did anything to isolate Celeste.  They had a nanny who, if not live-in, was there a lot.  Celeste had easy access to money, to transportation, to communication devices, and to her friends.  Typical abusers don't allow their victims that sort of freedom.  That could be why Celeste assumed that communications on her phone would be safe/private.

This is a very good point.

I also wonder if it was possible that Celeste, in her frazzled state, could have possibly erred giving home number instead of cell number? I've done that many times.

21 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Adam Scott the Australian professional golfer is indeed 36 ;)

Hmmmmm...the golfer I love so much.  

[sasha206]

The writers' comments are disappointing to me.  I hope they meant that they wanted Perry to be somewhat sympathetic to the audience as a man who has demons, really wants to change, but can't control himself.  But then *wham* he turns out to be a rapist as well and that was shocking to the audience.  I hope they didn't mean to portray a rapist, domestic abuser as just a flawed man who wants to change so you root for him.

[Bitsy]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 I don't think anyone who feels some sympathy for the monsters among us is condoning their behavior.  Even the writer and director felt sympathy for Perry.  It might be unpopular or unrealistic but it's not appalling or wrong (in some objective sense), in my opinion.  

My understanding was that the writer and director tried to portray Perry as somewhat sympathetic in the first few episodes in order to get the audience to think about him a certain way, not that they actually felt he was a sympathetic character.  I think subsequent episodes were meant to demonstrate how easy it is to get sucked in by someone so manipulative.

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

A sociopath doesn't understand love or remorse.  A true sociopath isn't wracked with guilt while still continuing to do heinous, unforgivable, savage things.   The fact that Perry can feel how terrible and wrong all that he does is, makes him much, much, much fucking worse than if he was just a monster with no feelings or ability to love.  

The fact that he is capable of love but still knocks someone he loves flying routinely, the fact that he possesses love but beats the living shit out of Celeste and rapes Jane does not excuse him, it makes all that he has done worse because somewhere inside, he's capable of feeling a semblance of the real emotion, even if he pollutes and perverts everything about it.  

I never saw Perry wracked with guilt.  I never saw him show any remorse.  And I didn't see him showing any real love to Celeste.

After a beating, Perry would express remorse to Celeste and say he wanted to change until it was clear that Celeste was pacified enough not to leave him, and then he immediately launched into the next abuse cycle.  As Celeste said in the car, he never took a single action to actually get help.  

As the abuse intensified, he no longer bothered to show any remorse ("Get up.  You're fine.  You just had the wind knocked out of you") because he thought he had Celeste so much under his control that it was no longer necessary.

And I didn't see him love Celeste.  Whenever he expressed "concern" for her well-being, it was when he was trying to prevent her from doing something that didn't involve him (working, spending time with her friends).

After a beating he would stage a romantic gesture (like dancing in the kitchen) to re-establish the status quo and remind her of why she wanted to stay.  But practically all of their affection was coercive - he demanded kisses/affection/sex/a baby out of her, usually at a time when it was inconvenient to her.  She almost always obliged; the tennis racket incident is what happened when she didn't.  

I just don't see actual textual evidence from the show supporting the idea that he was genuinely remorseful, conflicted, or wanting to change.  The one example I can think of where his emotion may have been genuine was when he was crying in the airport, but I thought that was relief that Celeste had, yet again, decided not to leave him. 

To paraphrase Jane, all I know about Perry is that he's keen on raping women, erotic asphyxiation, and beating up his wife.  And I feel pretty darn comfortable calling him a monster because of it.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Bitsy

[Cementhead]

Story lines and finale aside; I have to say that I am really going to miss just the experience of watching this series because it was just so visually stunning.  From the houses to the home decor to the beach scenes to the wardrobes -- it was just a dream for me to watch.  Along with the stellar cast and great acting, kudos to everyone involved in creating the visuals.  Can a tv series be described as classy & sophisticated?  Probably not, but those are the only 2 words I can come up with to describe the vibe of this show for me.  

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 In real life, Adam Scott is older than Reese, so there is no confirmation that the show is portraying Madeleine as older than Ed.  I'll assume it's the same case with Renata and Gordon.

It is. Jeffrey Nordling is 55, Laura Dern 52. So for the only couple in which the woman is older, Celeste/Perry, it is mentioned.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm sorry but look at how short Reese is here!  So cute.  Perry really did tower over everyone at the party; it was a great visual.

And just to be a little gossip, I know someone has brought this up, but it's so funny and interesting to me that Nicole Kidman has seriously dated Zoe Kravitz's father.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I am glad Perry is dead and I am glad Celeste is rid of him, but I also felt profoundly sad for Perry, that his emotional condition is what it was. I think those thoughts can exist alongside each other.

I agree with this. I do think that Perry meant it when he said he wanted to change every bit as much as he meant it when he told Celeste she was lucky he didn't kill her. But he was beyond saving. That makes me sad. If he had grown up in a different environment, he might have become a different man. It is always tragic when potential in a person is lost. Personally I believe very few people are born purely evil. I think it's usually a combination of your personal brain chemistry and your upbringing, nature and nurture. I can only theorize that both Perry's nature and nurture were bad. Max may have that bad blood, but he will have good nurturing, so there is hope for him, which is something Perry probably didn't get. (all speculation. We don't know what his childhood was like. But he didn't just pop out of Mr. & Mrs. Gandhi as a monster)

I think Max will become a different man because his mother is going to do everything in her power to make sure he does not become his father. I loved that her reaction to finding out was to go and hug him and tell him everything is going to be okay and that he is not bad. I really hope that breaks the cycle.