S01.E07: You Get What You Need

[stagmania]

6 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Critics shouldn't be critiquing anything they haven't seen, though, so if someone watched the show AND critiqued it as soapy, that's pretty bad. 

Critics were given screeners of the first six episodes. So yep.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Isolation can look like a lot of different things, because the abuser has to calibrate it to fit the woman's existing situation without raising too many alarm bells. My sister, for instance, is part of a huge and close family, so she could never be completely cut off from us without the cavalry charging in. Instead, her isolation took the form of not being able to be honest with us about anything

2

amazing post @stagmania and sounds very familiar. My sister was with her abusive spouse for nearly 20 years before she left (they have a teenaged daughter). They live on the other side of the country, and unbeknownst to everyone- he left his job when the daughter was born-- but they lied to everyone about him still working-- so my sister never socialized with co-workers because she was picking up my niece/ taking her to after school activities "her husband's commute was too far to do it."  

 It wasn't until she finally left him that I found out the emails I sent to her were to a gmail account they shared-- she never even had her own private email until two years ago.

[Ms Blue Jay]

28 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

East coast bias mixed with women bias plus dismissive to remakes of best sellers with women characters as mains...perhaps?

I'd assume the Hollywood Reporter is on the West coast haha no?

[stagmania]

@sacrebleu I sympathize; I always had to be careful about where and how I communicated with her in case he was monitoring. I'm glad to hear your sister was able to leave eventually. 

[Snappy]

Again, I apologize if this has been addressed, but I absolutely HATED Madeline's outfit. It seemed out of character and inappropriate when there were so many other "Audreys" to choose from. I don't know if they did that to set Madeline apart from everyone else, to show off Reese's legs, or because they were nuts.

[monakane]

15 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Again, I apologize if this has been addressed, but I absolutely HATED Madeline's outfit. It seemed out of character and inappropriate when there were so many other "Audreys" to choose from. I don't know if they did that to set Madeline apart from everyone else, to show off Reese's legs, or because they were nuts.

I liked her outfit.  I thought it was creative and unexpected.  It differentiated her from all the Breakfast at Tiffany's and My Fair Lady Audrey.  I would love to have seen the ball gown from Sabrina or the short hair and shirt dress from Roman Holiday.

[STOPSHOUTING]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

More Male critics dismissing Big Little Lies as a Soap Opera / Trashy Melodrama:

New York Post Robert Rorke http://nypost.com/2017/03/20/big-little-lies-is-a-terrible-whodunnit/
 

Yeah, I'm not one to cry sexist on a whim, but some of these are just ... weird. I mean, Rorke says of Episode 5 when it's unambiguously clear that Perry & Celeste's relationship is abusive. "Instead, we’re subjected to scenes of the S&M sex games played by Celeste and her husband, Perry (a one-dimensional Alexander Skarsgard), which feel like the Sunset magazine version of Kidman’s other sex game movie, “Eyes Wide Shut,” now nearly (gasp!) 20 years old."

"S&M games"? Seriously?!? Talk about your wrongest of wrong takes.

[eastcoastress]

As I said in my first post, I stumbled upon this show surfing around last week (I think I was checking to see if I had set DVR to record TWD). I wasn't looking for BLL, I had no recollection of even hearing of it.  Episode 6 was underway and something about the filming style, the atmosphere, the mood, and the performances hooked me immediately--fast enough that I didn't keep surfing up channel. I realized I had to stop & find the start of the series. Pretty much when I heard the opening theme, Cold Little Heart, I was all in (soundtracks & show themes are key for me).

I definitely would have dismissed this show had I heard about it prior. I am not a huge RW or NK fan (I don't dislike I just don't *have* to see their work). The general synopsis wouldn't have done much for me.  So this was a great surprise.  What further surprised me is how much I responded to that ending, that final theme.  That it wasn't exclusively about Perry's abuse of Celeste or Maddy's marital crisis, or Renata's whirlwind power facade, or Bonnie's subtle scenes, or even the kids.  It was about their individual insecurities vs their combined strength. What lies beneath those surfaces (all that glass!) That stuff? Generally not my thing.   But this show, wow, took that tropey 'girl power' if you will, and brought such depth. Those women, just screaming for validation & acceptance, just to be liked, to be seen even (all those glass homes but nothing is truly visible inside).  They behaved ways they thought they had to behave for self preservation (emotionally & physically). To have them all finally be exposed, their raw selves (and I include the men in this because, Nathan, Perry, Ed were stripped down to who they really were,  hell even Tom & Gordon got layers).   Just good stuff all around. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by eastcoastress

[Goatherd]

Why did the one of the Greek chorus say something about how this never would have happened, if not for Jane helping Madeline when she fell, on orientation day? I assume they mean "if those two had never become friends," but even then, how would that have changed the course of a fight that was primarily between Perry and Celeste?

 

I realize we were given some reasons as to why Jane had never met Perry (e.g. he wasn't able to attend orientation), but wouldn't it have seemed odd at some point that Jane had never met her friend's husband? Maybe I need to re-watch to see if this was ever mentioned.

 

I really liked the show, and I would wish for a Season 2 just because I will miss spending time with these actors and characters, but I understand the sense that the story has been told.

[Ms Blue Jay]

57 minutes ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Yeah, I'm not one to cry sexist on a whim, but some of these are just ... weird. I mean, Rorke says of Episode 5 when it's unambiguously clear that Perry & Celeste's relationship is abusive. "Instead, we’re subjected to scenes of the S&M sex games played by Celeste and her husband, Perry (a one-dimensional Alexander Skarsgard), which feel like the Sunset magazine version of Kidman’s other sex game movie, “Eyes Wide Shut,” now nearly (gasp!) 20 years old."

"S&M games"? Seriously?!? Talk about your wrongest of wrong takes.

I'm also a big fan of the movie Eyes Wide Shut.  It got a very bad reputation at the time because it was at the height of Tom and Nicole, but honestly, it's an artful film I've watched many times.  It's not like it's Gigli (okay fine I haven't seen Gigli.  Just believing reviews I guess).  Anyway, this just sounds like a very unintelligent take on the show.  Comparing two Nicole projects simply because they're Nicole's.   It's very hard to find any similarities between the two, as I've watched them both, besides the fact that Nicole stars in both.  There have been some really good articles in the past week from female writers who think Nicole deserves a lot more accolades for her consistently good work than she does get.  This show I'm sure has now helped.  Social media has really helped bring these tired-ass, narrow-minded critics down a peg.  Their opinions, which are usually as unimaginative as women stuff = bad, comedy = bad, romance = bad / violence and men stuff = good, are now really being drowned out by the mainstream who will simply like what it likes.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[shelley1234]

On 4/3/2017 at 4:19 PM, LucyHoneychrrch said:

Initially I thought Perry may be worth saving; but the discussion in the car was chilling.  I think he was a pure sociopath, manipulative and seemingly genuine in one moment and absolutely conscienceless the next.  

 

I think he looked like a classic abuser.   Run of the mill to be honest of what I've seen in 20 years of work as a social worker.   

On 4/3/2017 at 4:29 PM, AttackTurtle said:

 

I'd like to think that Celeste would have left him permanently had Perry not died; primarily once it was clear that Max was following in his dad's steps.  The scene where she spoke to Max was heartbreaking and then again when she assured him the tooth fairy would come.

 

 

Yep.  Many many women will stay in abusive relationships for years and years....take the abuse over and over again.   Many of those women only make the hard turn to leave their abuser when either the abuser starts abusing the children or they truly see the abuse affecting the children.   Celeste could no longer say that their children don't know or that it doesn't affect them when she learns Max is the one hurting Amabella.   

19 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

She would need to pay off whatever was owed on that house if she sold it and she'd keep the difference.   I'm assuming Perry would have life insurance and presumably, they have savings but selling the house might be the thing that yields the least, depending on how long they've had it.   I don't know that she'd be set for life and I don't think she'd actually get his life insurance if she'd killed him, even in self-defense but I confess, I don't know.  
I didn't really understand the detective's assertion that she'd get 12 months community service and "would be out in three-to-five (community service is assigned in hours, isn't it?).  If Celeste had killed him in defense of her own life, I didn't understand why there would be any charges.  

 

I think the detective said she would be charged with involuntary manslaughter and get 12 months plus comm serv.  She'd be convicted of a felony.   She probably would not get any life insurance.   She would probably lose her ability to practice law.  She'd have a good case for self defense since he was actively beating her, but it's still a roll of the dice.   

16 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

She had no one she could really talk to without fear of being judged, no one she could really be herself with. That in and of itself is isolating.

Yep.  Even in the end, Celeste never told anyone.  She never told Maddie.  She never told Jane.  She was totally isolated when it came to the violence.   Perry did a great job of isolating Celeste while even convincing her that he wasn't isolating her.   It was a work of maniacal magic.  

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

 

I really appreciate the thoughtful conversation about Perry here, and the nuances people have teased out, but I agree with this. Perry's remorse was only ever part of a performance. 

Isolation can look like a lot of different things, because the abuser has to calibrate it to fit the woman's existing situation without raising too many alarm bells. My sister, for instance, is part of a huge and close family, so she could never be completely cut off from us without the cavalry charging in. Instead, her isolation took the form of not being able to be honest with us about anything, obfuscating and sometimes straight up lying about what was happening in her home, and avoiding too much contact with the more perceptive/pushy members of the family who would question her more frankly. 

2

As for the first comment, I think that it is really common for abusers to have genuine regret for their behavior during part of the cycle and then continuing the violence and escalating it in other parts of the cycle.   However, I do think Perry was putting on a show for the counselor.   I think he thought he did a good job too....and he'd be shocked to learn (if he wasn't dead)...that she saw right through him and saw him for the abuser that he was.

5 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Those stairs were an accident waiting to happen.  Celeste should sue them for negligence.

 

Celeste should thank them for their negligence instead of suing them.....those steps are the best thing that ever happened to her!  

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

 

Yep.  Even in the end, Celeste never told anyone.

 

 

 

No, I think she told Renata when she was telling her about Max bullying Amabella. I think she ran into that party looking for someone to tell because at that point she was gone, she decided to leave. She called the sitter and told the sitter to get the boys out of that house and take them to the apt...I have no doubt that every precautionary measure her therapist told her to take in that moment she was trying to take them and one of those measures was to tell someone. I got the impression that when Renata says to Perry that Celeste just needed a moment, that confirmed for me that Renata knew. 

On another note, The Post? Please, another rag. Nicole Kidman is someone who I haven't seen in very much, but from what I have seen, her work in The Hours, Rabbit Hole and now this, she's a good actress. Actually, I haven't seen any of these actors in much, although I am familiar with all of them.  I think the first film I saw Nicole in was with Alec Baldwin but that was decades ago and I can't remember the title, but I definitely don't remember thinking that this is a bad actress. Oh and I forgot, she was good in To Die For. All the actors in this project did very good work IMO, I don't feel like 7 hours of my life have been wasted. 

Oh, and I did feel for Ed when he was singing that song, I kind of teared up for him, it was damn sad/pathetic. Pathetic, which usually doesn't get aw's from me, he's a nice guy, he's got a decent profession and he's sapping around after some woman who's not into him like he's into her, yeah I can't. Why? Because she's the "it" girl? Well, there are tons of them, and he could surely find one that's into him and could appreciate him. But psychologically, I guess he doesn't think he deserves that and that type of stuff frustrates me to watch. I don't even get how they got together? Maybe she was the wounded damsel and he swooped in and picked her up off the floor, seeing as her ego has been bruised for about fifteen years with what went down with Nathan. But gradually she got back on her feet and had not much use for him and here we are in the present.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I absolutely dismissed this show as soapy trash initially. I knew nothing about it, but hate stuff like "Desperate Housewives" and "Sex and the City," which I thought it would be like. It was less the story or collection of women, and more the gloss and shine I saw in the very brief glimpses I had. In previews, it looks a lot like those shows, and in the end, I think that's part of the point. The story/presentation took a lot of cliches and flipped them around. It was only when a friend (who DOES like that stuff) insisted I was wrong that I binged five episodes in a weekend.

Critics shouldn't be critiquing anything they haven't seen, though, so if someone watched the show AND critiqued it as soapy, that's pretty bad. 

I did too. Even though I loved the cast, I shrugged it off because I wasn't interested in "rich white people problems" - but then I watched it OnDemand because I had nothing better to do, and I loved it.

1 hour ago, Snappy said:

Again, I apologize if this has been addressed, but I absolutely HATED Madeline's outfit. It seemed out of character and inappropriate when there were so many other "Audreys" to choose from. I don't know if they did that to set Madeline apart from everyone else, to show off Reese's legs, or because they were nuts.

I'm not sure I understand what's inappropriate about Madeline's outfit. The theme was Audrey, and that was an Audrey outfit from a movie. Sure, others chose more elegant Hepburns - but there were a few who were wearing some other kind of informal outfit (I didn't recognize the style or the movie). It's a party for adults, and the outfit was tame by most standards.

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I got the impression that when Renata says to Perry that Celeste just needed a moment, that confirmed for me that Renata knew. 

That was my impression, too. She told Renata about Max and then explained where he learned that behavior. Renata was in full protection mode when Perry approached Celeste so I thought at that point she knew what he was. I think it was an interesting choice to have her tell Renata. I bet it was easier, in a way, than telling her close friends. She wouldn't fear Renata's judgement as much as she would Maddie or Jane's. She wasn't risking losing a close friend. And also, I just can't see her not explaining why Max was the bully.

[shelley1234]

Celeste could have told Renata, but I still don't think she did.   I think she told her about Max and Renata is a smart lady and figured out the rest.   I just don't think Renata would have just let Celeste walk back with Perry if she just told her that he's been beating her within inches of her life.  

As for Maddie's outfit, I loved it.   I thought it was creative and quirky.   

[Keepitmoving]

21 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

That was my impression, too. She told Renata about Max and then explained where he learned that behavior. Renata was in full protection mode when Perry approached Celeste so I thought at that point she knew what he was. I think it was an interesting choice to have her tell Renata. I bet it was easier, in a way, than telling her close friends. She wouldn't fear Renata's judgement as much as she would Maddie or Jane's. She wasn't risking losing a close friend. And also, I just can't see her not explaining why Max was the bully.

Yep, she definitely told, she was done with keeping it a secret and out the door. She had no more time to be ashamed, she was in true fight mode, and calling to get those boys out of that house confirmed it for me even more.  I actually think at first her eyes were darting around looking for Maddie and Jane but they had run out of the party by then. So then she was desperate just to find a familiar face to tell, she looked desperate to tell IMO.

36 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

 

Celeste should thank them for their negligence instead of suing them.....those steps are the best thing that ever happened to her!  

Not to mention, they had that yellow cautionary tape. By law, did they need to do anything else? Kids aren't supposed to be playing there, and adults should know better. If you allow your kids to play in that area and they get hurt, then look in the mirror parent(s).

By the way, oh, that was the reason I had to watch Maddie walk up, over and under that yellow tape multiple times during this series. I knew that area had to be of some importance, I mean why keep showing that? It was weird.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[film noire]

2 hours ago, monakane said:

I liked her outfit.  I thought it was creative and unexpected.  It differentiated her from all the Breakfast at Tiffany's and My Fair Lady Audrey.  I would love to have seen the ball gown from Sabrina or the short hair and shirt dress from Roman Holiday.

I love that Sabrina ballgown -- just gorgeous -- I also liked Madeleine's costume because it hints at two men (in BAT, Hepburn's character climbs out of bed and puts on the man's tuxedo shirt - presumably from one of her "dates" - when she first sees Paul, the man she ends up with in a fairy tale clinch. So she's wearing another man's clothing when she meets her true love.) 

1 hour ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Yeah, I'm not one to cry sexist on a whim, but some of these are just ... weird. I mean, Rorke says of Episode 5 when it's unambiguously clear that Perry & Celeste's relationship is abusive. "Instead, we’re subjected to scenes of the S&M sex games played by Celeste and her husband, Perry (a one-dimensional Alexander Skarsgard), which feel like the Sunset magazine version of Kidman’s other sex game movie, “Eyes Wide Shut,” now nearly (gasp!) 20 years old."

All of those reviews are repugnant.  For critics to be missing - or dismissing - the horror of those scenes is an indictment of what they really think women are (apparently, holes to be raped and bodies to be beaten, so depictions of the same are either routine, cliched, hot messes or a  sex game between willing partners. JESUS).  The brutality of what was done to Celeste  - and Kidman's guts in going there, over and over, her naked body bruised,  vulnerable and on display - to watch that and think "Hmm, a little fucky wucky game, what a bore" is near sociopathic.

And dollars to donuts, if a male character had been taking that kind of beating from his husband,  the same critics would be screaming "Amazing!" and "Groundbreaking!"  Because if it happens to men, it matters; if it happens to women, it doesn't. 

SO ANGRY. WHERE'S THE REBAR? 

Edited April 4, 2017 by film noire

[susannot]

So many amazing posts.  Such a great TV show.  Groundbreaking, maybe.  Thank you Reese and Nicole.  Thank you HBO.

 

I finished reading the book today.  No spoilers, but I am awestruck at the artistry and the vision that it took to translate that book into this film.  In most cases I like the book better than the film.  Not here, no way, no how.  The brilliant acting (#alltheawards), the cinematography, the sets, the writing, the costumes, all made this one of the greatest HBO shows.  I liked the ending of the film 1000% better than the ending of the book.

Have enjoyed chatting with you all.

[SiobhanJW]

35 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

That was my impression, too. She told Renata about Max and then explained where he learned that behavior. Renata was in full protection mode when Perry approached Celeste so I thought at that point she knew what he was. I think it was an interesting choice to have her tell Renata. I bet it was easier, in a way, than telling her close friends. She wouldn't fear Renata's judgement as much as she would Maddie or Jane's. She wasn't risking losing a close friend. And also, I just can't see her not explaining why Max was the bully.

I disagree. I think Celeste just told Renata about Max being the one that had been hurting Amabella, Perry comes right over during this conversation and Celeste walks away with him. I imagine if Renata was told about what was going on, she wouldn't of let Celeste walk away with him. Instead Renata leaves the party area and tries to find Jane to apologize. Then Celeste comes down, followed by Perry, Renta is the only one actually facing Celeste when he approaches, so she saw the look on her face of pure terror, which is why she tells him to give her space or whatever she says (I can't remember exactly). She looks back and forth a few times, and you can see she has a realization. And then obviously it escalated from there. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by SiobhanJW

[madam magpie]

45 minutes ago, SiobhanJW said:

I disagree. I think Celeste just told Renata about Max being the one that had been hurting Amabella, Perry comes right over during this conversation and Celeste walks away with him. I imagine if Renata was told about what was going on, she wouldn't of let Celeste walk away with him. Instead Renata leaves the party area and tries to find Jane to apologize. Then Celeste comes down, followed by Perry, Renta is the only one actually facing Celeste when he approaches, so she saw the look on her face of pure terror, which is why she tells him to give her space or whatever she says (I can't remember exactly). She looks back and forth a few times, and you can see she has a realization. And then obviously it escalated from there. 

I don't think Celeste told Renata about Perry either. Renata puts together that something is very wrong as she gets clues, the same way Bonnie did. I read something, a review of the series, that talked about how well the end played wordless communication among women, not as intuition or anything mystical but because on some level we all understand the language and look of male violence. It's everywhere, all the time, subtle and obvious, from time we're all very young. I feel pretty confident that's what was going on among the five of them at the end.

[mojoween]

On a lighter note, one of my favorite lines was Madeline telling Tom "I would have told him to go fuck himself, but I don't talk like that."

Madeline and I are sisters in gutter mouth and I love that Reese let herself do it throughout the series.

[shelley1234]

3 minutes ago, mojoween said:

On a lighter note, one of my favorite lines was Madeline telling Tom "I would have told him to go fuck himself, but I don't talk like that."

Madeline and I are sisters in gutter mouth and I love that Reese let herself do it throughout the series.

 

LOL.   That reminds me of one of my favorite scenes....(indulge me that it's not from this episode).   It's when Renata is calling Madeline to invite Ziggy and Chloe to Amabella bday party.  As Renata is losing it and calling her every name in the book and Madeline just keeps answering with the sickly sweet "thank you so much for calling and thinking of us, etc."   It was the bitchiest best thing ever! 

[vixenbynight]

7 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

On the Max thing, one of the implications is that he might have a crush on Amabella.  That was the one that just made me nearly make an "oof" sound in my own turn.  We never saw rage issues from either of the twins.  If he was simply having meltdowns, unable to control his own behavior, it would have been obvious to the teacher.  He was controlling Amabella and the terrifying implication beyond the other terrifying parts of that was that it might have been about having a crush on her.   I both love and am heartbroken by the fact that that is what it took for Celeste to draw the line in the sand. Knowing that what Perry does is breaking his children.  

Thank you for bringing up the point that, in Max's 6 year old mind, him being controlling and abusive towards Amabella and Skye, must mean to him that he's showing "affection" for them. Just like how his dad showed towards his mom.

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, shelley1234 said:

Celeste should thank them for their negligence instead of suing them.....those steps are the best thing that ever happened to her!  

Oh, I know!  I meant it as a joke, but it would look better to go on the offense rather than defense.

[Lecreusette]

I saw a lot of this ending coming, but I was surprise (relieved?) That Adam Scott wasn't sleeping with Reece's daughter. I was convinced that's why she moved out of the house earlier in the season.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's take further discussion of critics' takes and reviews to the Media topic, as this one is for episode discussion. Thank you.

[txhorns79]

I think the only thing that annoyed me was a continuation from the last episode with Maddie sharing her marital troubles with her daughter.  I just wanted to be like: "She's not one of your girlfriends!  She's your teenage daughter.  Is it really fair to put her in the middle of your issues with your husband?"   

[pbutler111]

5 hours ago, Snappy said:

Again, I apologize if this has been addressed, but I absolutely HATED Madeline's outfit. It seemed out of character and inappropriate when there were so many other "Audreys" to choose from. I don't know if they did that to set Madeline apart from everyone else, to show off Reese's legs, or because they were nuts.

I loved it!  I thought it was a brilliant choice, and perfect for someone as tiny as Reese.  She looked adorable!

1 hour ago, Lecreusette said:

I saw a lot of this ending coming, but I was surprise (relieved?) That Adam Scott wasn't sleeping with Reece's daughter. I was convinced that's why she moved out of the house earlier in the season.

I thought that, too!

2 hours ago, vixenbynight said:

Thank you for bringing up the point that, in Max's 6 year old mind, him being controlling and abusive towards Amabella and Skye, must mean to him that he's showing "affection" for them. Just like how his dad showed towards his mom.

I may be in the minority, but I don't think the twins ever witnessed their parents being violent with each other.  To me, the suggestion was that, while Jane was spending so much time worrying that Ziggy might have inherited this tendency toward violence from his biological father, Max, in fact, actually did.

[Armchair Critic]

What happened to Jane's rapist having a bad smell?

[susannot]

17 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I may be in the minority, but I don't think the twins ever witnessed their parents being violent with each other.  To me, the suggestion was that, while Jane was spending so much time worrying that Ziggy might have inherited this tendency toward violence from his biological father, Max, in fact, actually did.

Max heard his father beating the crap out of his mother through a vent as we were shown in the first scene of the finale.  Josh didn't hear because he always had headphones on.

[pbutler111]

3 minutes ago, susannot said:

Max heard his father beating the crap out of his mother through a vent as we were shown in the first scene of the finale.  Josh didn't hear because he always had headphones on.

I just watched it again, thinking maybe I'd missed something.  There was nothing to suggest that either twin heard anything, let alone that one twin was listening and the other had headphones on; they weren't even there. We don't see them until Max comes from down the hall to get his mother to take them to school and is headed off by his father.  Maybe this was laid out differently in the book, but it was never shown in the TV show that either twin was aware of anything violent going on in their home.

[Blissfool]

8 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I just watched it again, thinking maybe I'd missed something.  There was nothing to suggest that either twin heard anything, let alone that one twin was listening and the other had headphones on; they weren't even there. We don't see them until Max comes from down the hall to get his mother to take them to school and is headed off by his father.  Maybe this was laid out differently in the book, but it was never shown in the TV show that either twin was aware of anything violent going on in their home.

There was a scene further into the episode that showed the same scene from Max's point of view. It seemed he could hear the fight, looked at the vent, then looked at his brother, who had his headphones on.

[madam magpie]

1 minute ago, Blissfool said:

There was a scene further into the episode that showed the same scene from Max's point of view. It seemed he could hear the fight, looked at the vent, then looked at his brother, who had his headphones on.

And then he put his own headphones on. The boys were playing video games, which were slightly audible to the audience through the vent at the beginning.

[chocolatine]

Max also walked in on Perry choking Celeste a few episodes ago. It was a split second before Perry noticed him and stopped, but Max saw it.

[Blissfool]

I'm embarrassed to admit that throughout the whole series I would watch the opening (i love the song and the way the kids and moms are presented, so i would watch watch)....anyway, I never recognized Renata in the opening. I actually wondered why they had left out Renata and put in some random woman. I figured it was because Renata was the outcast. Then when i saw her in the My Fair Lady costume i realized it WAS Renata in the opening! Doh!

4 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Max also walked in on Perry choking Celeste a few episodes ago. It was a split second before Perry noticed him and stopped, but Max saw it.

Maybe he kept walking in to "save" his mom. Poor baby.

[lovinbob]

28 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

I just watched it again, thinking maybe I'd missed something.  There was nothing to suggest that either twin heard anything, let alone that one twin was listening and the other had headphones on; they weren't even there. We don't see them until Max comes from down the hall to get his mother to take them to school and is headed off by his father.  Maybe this was laid out differently in the book, but it was never shown in the TV show that either twin was aware of anything violent going on in their home.

I would be very surprised if both twins weren't aware of the abuse. Kids are sponges. I think Perry and Celeste were both in denial that they were shielding their kids from anything.

[Stella]

In my mind Max was alert to things going on whereas Josh was content to keep his headphones/distraction device on. I would bet anything both boys had heard stuff. Josh coped by not looking for anything and keeping the sound blocked. Max was apparently looking and listening, to some extent.

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Oh, and I did feel for Ed when he was singing that song, I kind of teared up for him, it was damn sad/pathetic. Pathetic, which usually doesn't get aw's from me, he's a nice guy, he's got a decent profession and he's sapping around after some woman who's not into him like he's into her, yeah I can't. Why? Because she's the "it" girl? Well, there are tons of them, and he could surely find one that's into him and could appreciate him. But psychologically, I guess he doesn't think he deserves that and that type of stuff frustrates me to watch. I don't even get how they got together?

He's not with her because she's the "it" girl who can be replaced with another "it" girl.  He's with her because he loves her and feels lucky to wake up next to her each morning. Their marriage isn't in a great place right now.  The affection is not equal right now and that's sad.  But it's not unheard of for to marriages go through phases like this.  We don't know what their marriage was initially like.  We don't know how it got derailed. Was it Nathan coming back?  Was it the affair that has been eating away at her? 

This place isn't going to work in the long run but with all the secrets coming out, I do think there will be movement one way or the other.

 

10 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

What happened to Jane's rapist having a bad smell?

I don't think it was implied that there was a bad smell but rather a distinct smell that she moved towards when she didn't immediately recognize the designer.

[Cardie]

23 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

I was under the impression that Trivia Night was a fundraiser that involved anyone who wanted to buy a ticket.

I was under the same impression.

[eastcoastress]

1 hour ago, Blissfool said:

I'm embarrassed to admit that throughout the whole series I would watch the opening (i love the song and the way the kids and moms are presented, so i would watch watch)....anyway, I never recognized Renata in the opening. I actually wondered why they had left out Renata and put in some random woman. I figured it was because Renata was the outcast. Then when i saw her in the My Fair Lady costume i realized it WAS Renata in the opening! Doh!

I was/still am obsessed with the opening credits. I think a good % of views on YouTube's Cold Little Heart are mine.  I recognized Renata mainly because I find Laura Dern quite distinctive looking & have somewhat been drawn to her as an actor. And the hard, cold look she gave the camera sort of played with the idea maybe she was the one who snapped (yes they all gave that steely look but Renata's caught my eye most).  What blew my mind was that she actually colored her hair for the benefit (not Dern, heh). That's commitment! Go big or go home for Renata. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by eastcoastress

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder - if you're a non-book reader who has a question about the book, please ask it over in Big Little Questions from Non-Book Readers & Answers from Book Readers, not here. This is a book talk free topic.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, eastcoastress said:

 What blew my mind was that she actually colored her hair for the benefit (not Dern, heh). That's commitment! Go big or go home for Renata. 

I think it was a wig.  The shots of her dressing for the party, Renata had her hair pinned tight down to her scalp like you do before donning a wig.   

[paramitch]

I thought this was an amazing and thought-provoking finale, and while some small elements bothered me storywise (Perry being Jane's rapist, the unceasingly shrill, nasty very Kelley-esque Greek chorus, or the decided ultimate ickiness of most of the major male characters), the resolution was so gorgeously realized, acted, filmed, and edited, that I didn't care about the little stuff. Those women instantly and wordlessly coming together to support and save Celeste (and how amazing that Renata's instant reaction was one of fierce protection) moved me tremendously, and their freedom and joy in the end, and that of their children, was just really beautiful to me. ALL of the acting by the women was just wonderful -- and I have to really give kudos to Woodley here, who is not normally a favorite of mine, but she was superb in this, right up there beside Kidman and Witherspoon and Dern for me.

I also thought the final sequence -- starting with Perry's confrontation with Celeste about the apartment -- was incredibly tense and terrifying. I was so moved when we saw Celeste escape him (yay Renata!), especially because Nicole played it so beautifully, and she looked so isolated and fragile even in a huge room full of affluent people, going from one person to the next, seeking Maddie and some kind of safety and shelter. (And it was very true to Celeste's character that she wouldn't just grab someone and say "Call the police." She was so used to hiding her abuse that even in this dire situation, she just wanted to find her friend as the one person who could help, avoid a scene, etc.)

On a more specific note, thank you to those who have posted so eloquently on the issue of Perry and the complexities of his character and abuse. Like several who have spoken about this, I have some experience as a victim of abuse, and here's what I would say about Perry and his "desire to be a good man" (to paraphrase Vallee from interviews) -- sure, I think Perry felt love for Celeste and the kids, but it was a warped and possessive love. 

BUT. I do not agree with the filmmaker however that we saw visible signs that Perry actually wanted to change. Instead, to me, he evinced only some pretty classic abuser behavior -- even the occasional tears I felt were pretty much of the tired crocodile variety. I never once felt like he was truly agonized about what he did to Celeste, just that he was afraid he would lose her or that she would tell. Even when he went to therapy with her, I felt he was only there to show her -- "SEE? I DID THIS FOR YOU" -- while desperately trying to manipulate the entire session to make it all about his love, need, and insecurity (and about her failing ultimately in not loving him enough). 

And for those pointing out that Perry was "a good father" -- even if I agreed it was a mitigating factor, which I don't -- I just cannot agree. The show was often very subtle about it, but beyond the constant (and very unsettling) scenes of Perry mock-terrifying his twins by pretending to be a monster (which became a bit over the top for me metaphorically), we got at least half a dozen scenes of Perry sulking over some imagined slight or abandonment by Celeste, then almost immediately snapping at the twins. And in every case, the little boys immediately go motionless. They are obviously terrified of the man.

For me, the most memorable of these moments was when he flashed out at them about the noise they were making while eating breakfast, and the little boys just both stop chewing their cereal, mid-chew, freezing motionless. And there's silence. So I have to disagree on the parenting front -- everyone in that house knew and feared what Perry was. Sure, they loved him. But that's what people do.

So all the more reason for me to love Celeste's beautiful, difficult, heartbreaking scene with Max as she talked to him about his behavior and what he was doing to Amabella and the other little girls at school. I thought it was a beautiful, incredibly sad and well-done moment.

I do actually personally know of one or two men who were able to change their habits from a cycle of unchecked anger and physical as well as verbal abuse, although nothing at the level we saw here. However, below are some of the things they did, and that Perry never showed signs of doing:

• Implementing a self- and mutually agreed monitoring system to identify, forestall, and immediately address any abusive action or talk (and with a preagreed system of separation, language and response)
• Seeking out intensive couples therapy in which the abusive pattern (and stopping it) was the focus -- not the relationship (and in which total honesty about that behavior was required)
• Identifying and attempting to change controlling or isolating behavior, speech and body language both generally and in the moment
• Attending individual and/or group therapy with a focus on anger management and behavioral modification
• Removing themselves from the room and vicinity at the first signs of anger or abusive response
• Empowering the partner to remove themselves from the room, vicinity or home at any time

While I'm pessimistic that the vast majority can do so, I do not think all abusers are beyond hope of change. But for me, Perry never even seemed all that remorseful or upset at himself (and that may be due to Askaars or Vallee). But for me, we never saw him try to stop himself, for instance, or saw real horror at his own actions. Instead it was just all victim-blaming and petulance -- theatre for Celeste's benefit in which he was ultimately just a good-looking monster who tortured those around him because he could.

Ultimately, I thought the show did a decent job of portraying an abusive relationship, but I don't think it went so far as to show one in which the husband was a damaged but good man. As a writer, I do think there are ways the show could have humanized Perry or shown us a damaged/abused child inside him, but I never saw that.

Meanwhile, to bring this full circle, I thought it was very obvious that Bonnie was an abuse victim, and what I loved about the show's final minutes was the way Bonnie's instant recognition of Celeste's situation also instantly allowed all the little hints about her to coalesce for us in a similar way. From the subtle self-defense aspects of her yoga sessions to her "we all have baggage" conversation with Ed, to her reaction to Skye's terror at the Nathan/Abigail fight, to the way she froze at the sight of Perry grabbing his wife, I felt it was obvious Bonnie was another whose big little lies had provided a polished surface over underlying damage. So when she ran in and pushed Perry, yeah, I may have cheered out loud. (And like others, I loved the symmetry that Max pushed Skye down the stairs at school, and that Bonnie was the one who pushed Perry.)

Last but not least, on a more humorous note, although I love Merrin Dungey (who will always be Francie to me), and while I loved the finale, I thought the detective was a pretty thankless role, and I was surprised that the women in the final scenes at the station or the beach could hear each other OVER THE INCESSANT CLICKING OF THAT DAMN LIGHTER.

Edited April 5, 2017 by paramitch
Did I really need so, so many parentheses? Sigh...

[vixenbynight]

6 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Max also walked in on Perry choking Celeste a few episodes ago. It was a split second before Perry noticed him and stopped, but Max saw it.

 

6 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Maybe he kept walking in to "save" his mom. Poor baby.

 

6 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I would be very surprised if both twins weren't aware of the abuse. Kids are sponges. I think Perry and Celeste were both in denial that they were shielding their kids from anything.

 

6 hours ago, Stella said:

In my mind Max was alert to things going on whereas Josh was content to keep his headphones/distraction device on. I would bet anything both boys had heard stuff. Josh coped by not looking for anything and keeping the sound blocked. Max was apparently looking and listening, to some extent.

Those boys were raised in that house. Those boys saw and heard things both their parents desperately hoped that they could keep from them. Max displaying violent behavior towards Amabella and Skye isn't about nature. That was about nurture. Josh had to have seen his brother doing that to those girls and he stayed silent, just like the other kids.

Also, I may not have kids, but I am an aunt. Kids, try to watch everything that you do. They're trying to learn how to be a "grown up". 

[mochamajesty]

Max heard the beating -  that was made clear.  He also saw the choking.  When he walked in and said "Mom?" His voice sounded afraid there was a tremor.

[eastcoastress]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think it was a wig.  The shots of her dressing for the party, Renata had her hair pinned tight down to her scalp like you do before donning a wig.   

You're right. I just checked that scene (and didn't mind doing so because I love Renata's rants). She does have her hair pinned into meticulous little rings close to her scalp. Jeez that alone takes forever. When I first watched, it looked like the phase in home hair coloring when the product is soaking into hair and piled onto scalp. Not that I have any experience with coloring hair. Due to grays. Or anything :P  

Love Renata here. "Those women. I hate them all. Except Jane. "   That is so telling. Renata was basically out for blood when it came to Jane but the second Jane shows Renata some compassion by coming to her home, which definitely took guts (not sure we saw anyone else do that in series though perhaps they had already tried that route and were burnt out heh), Renata has warmth for her. She so desperately wanted to have a place in the other moms' worlds. She took everything as a dig (a lot were but her defense mechanisms were in overdrive so she took everything as a dig at her success, mothering, etc...). I remember some comments wondering about Renata's fast change of heart toward Jane (was it bullshit) but nope, she genuinely needed someone to reach out. It was one of the few times I recall her face even softening. 

And since I was reviewing that scene, whoa to her shelves (glass shelves!) of shapely perfumes. It was like an entire wall at Sephora. 

 

Edited to add: in that same scene, Gordon suggests blowing off the party. Renata explain-rants (Rantata!) why that is impossible. But imagine if they didn't go. That knock on the car window wouldn't have happened. Which gives me chills. Everyone sort of had a role in saving a life. Goes back to my comments being fascinated with what seems like the simplest of choices characters make (we make) that could have endless varying results. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by eastcoastress

[Ms Blue Jay]

11 hours ago, Lecreusette said:

I saw a lot of this ending coming, but I was surprise (relieved?) That Adam Scott wasn't sleeping with Reece's daughter. I was convinced that's why she moved out of the house earlier in the season.

The weird looks did not amount to anything and I don't understand the point.  It's not like Abigail knew about the affair when Ed did all that staring, so what did it mean anyway?  Abigail found out in like episode 106.  Maybe it's just to show a weird stepfather/daughter relationship, the old adage that stepparents experience jealousy over the past relationship and reminders of it.  Anyways, it was unnecessarily creepy because Abigail was 16? 17? and the staring was very weird.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, eastcoastress said:

I remember some comments wondering about Renata's fast change of heart toward Jane (was it bullshit) but nope, she genuinely needed someone to reach out. It was one of the few times I recall her face even softening.

I think Renata's change of heart was a combination of her finally feeling like someone understood where she was coming from and admiring how much strength of character it took for Jane to go there. I'm sure Renata knew Madeline was doing everything she could to get Jane on the Renata Hate Train, so for Jane to extend any olive branch took guts.

1 hour ago, eastcoastress said:

But imagine if they didn't go. That knock on the car window wouldn't have happened. Which gives me chills.

OMG that is just insane to think about. How very differently their lives would have gone. I have no doubt Perry was capable of killing Celeste in that car that night. He could have said he got in a crash, bang up the car just to make it look good. Yeah, Renata inadvertently saved Celeste's life as far as I'm concerned. I think Celeste knew it too. She shot out of that car like a rocket, good for her! That was smart, quick thinking.

I do love how, as soon as Celeste found out about Max, about how he's being influenced by Perry's abuse of her, all Perry's words and promises just were not going to work. She was hurt, because I do think she still loved Perry and wishes that he could get better, but it was done, over, she was never going to be swayed once her kids were being harmed. That rings so true to me. Some people are willing to put up with a lot themselves, but you harm someone they love and they will put a stop to it.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The weird looks did not amount to anything and I don't understand the point.  It's not like Abigail knew about the affair when Ed did all that staring, so what did it mean anyway?  Abigail found out in like episode 106.  Maybe it's just to show a weird stepfather/daughter relationship, the old adage that stepparents experience jealousy over the past relationship and reminders of it.  Anyways, it was unnecessarily creepy because Abigail was 16? 17? and the staring was very weird.

I think the point was to suggest that something was going on between them, the situation could blow up and Ed could be the person who was murdered.  I'm glad the show didn't feel the need to go there.     

Quote

Renata was basically out for blood when it came to Jane but the second Jane shows Renata some compassion by coming to her home, which definitely took guts (not sure we saw anyone else do that in series though perhaps they had already tried that route and were burnt out heh), Renata has warmth for her.

I thought it was strange that Renata's husband sought out and threatened Jane after Jane and Renata seemed to have come to an understanding.  Presumably Renata would have said something to her husband about the apology, no?  I didn't get why he would think it was a good idea to ratchet things back up.     

[eastcoastress]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

7 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I do love how, as soon as Celeste found out about Max, about how he's being influenced by Perry's abuse of her, all Perry's words and promises just were not going to work. She was hurt, because I do think she still loved Perry and wishes that he could get better, but it was done, over, she was never going to be swayed once her kids were being harmed. That rings so true to me. Some people are willing to put up with a lot themselves, but you harm someone they love and they will put a stop to it.

 

Absolutely. I think I commented on that pages back. That even though we saw Celeste making plans, getting the apartment, stocking the fridge, setting the the bunk beds, (to me) it felt like she was going through the motions. I saw a shift in her body language & eyes (just subtle enough) when she learned about Max. Only then was she committed to make the change.