S01.E18: Moonshadow

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, Trooper York said:

I know that people are going to buy into the Puritanical notions of one drink means you are a monster and that nobody ever drives after having a few beers. Look he was wrong and stupid to drive drunk. I just know that for some people it is just another Saturday night. Doesn't make it right. It makes it realistic. For the time and place and the people involved.

My last word on the subject: MADD had been around for quite some time at that point.  Jack would have known better and was endangering people's lives.  If he had killed someone, would you still call it "just another Saturday night"?

[Trooper York]

I would call it wrong and stupid and realistic in its depiction of how bad things happen.

On the other hand planning on a job in the arts when you marginally talented is also wrong and stupid. You need to go out and get a real job. People who succeed in the arts have to pay theirs dues over a long period of time. Except for the insanely talented. Usually that means you write your own music or are promoted by a manager who sells your pretty ass as a commodity. Not an option here.

What is realistic is getting a real job not indulging in fantasy. Three kids. Three college tuitions. 

[SueB]

4 hours ago, Trooper York said:

That's easy. Nobody is ever going to make any money from Rebecca's singing.

Since Mandy Moore has has one platinum and two gold albums prior to turning to acting (starting at 15), I'd say money has been made from the actress that plays her. Sure, it's bubble-gum pop but I suspect it's more money from singing than people criticizing her have made.

And in-universe to "This is Us", she's clearly a talented singer who never got the career she was hoping for.  Honestly, as Mrs Future Money-Bags was saying, it's a 1 in a million shot to make it big, even with an excellent voice.  Rebecca was shown to be bringing in SOME money from singing. I'm sure it wasn't a lot but she was, in fact, getting paid to sing and because AFTER she joined the band, they booked a 10 city tour, she clearly improved the band's performance.  You may not like her singing personally, but show canon (and real life) does not support anything OTHER than she's an excellent singer.

  5 HOURS AGO,  @Trooper York     SAID:

Quote

 

It is pretty interesting how pro-Rebecca posters have to 1) imagine horrible stuff that Jack did to justify Rebecca's decision to throw him out of the house he paid for by selling off his dreams.

Jack is portrayed as a blue collar guy from the get go.  He worked with his hands. He was just back from serving in the war and living with his parents. Partly because he feels he has to protect his Mom from his abusive alcoholic Dad. Then he meets 2) a artsy fartsy girl and they fall in love and he acts the way he thinks a man should act.  He goes to work. He swallows  shit; 2) He doesn't come home and take it out on his wife and kids because his life didn't go exactly the way he wanted it to go. Instead he tries to totally different than his Dad. Even when he feels the Siren Song of Drink to help him cope he stops cold turkey to keep his family together. He tries to optimistic and loving and kind in most every situation. 2) He provides. He makes mistakes. But the dude provides. The dude abides.

Then his wife decides that she has to realize her unfulfilled dream of singing Cat Stevens covers in the Blarney Stone to drunken morons with her ex looking at her like a turkey leg at Thanksgiving. Sure he screws up. He was supportive until he finds out that the 3) leader of the band used to tickle her ivories and would be happy to blow on her flugelhorn if he gets a chance at a late night after party while they are alone on the road. He is morose and upset. He decides to take a drink. While he is there he is presented with temptation. Tapping him on the shoulder. He rejects it. He decides to drive to support her. Even though it is killing him. What nobody mentions is that he 1) definitely had a buzz but he didn't really get wasted until he got to the venue. I think he did at least three boilermakers all in a row. In the space of less then five minutes. So of course he was drunk out of his face. So much so that his wife walked right past him and he didn't even see her. Of course Rebecca didn't see him either but that is understandable because after all it is all about Rebecca.

The fight happens. They drive home. They fight. She throws him out of the house. She expected him to be contrite and beg her forgiveness. Because in her mind she is 100% right. She did nothing wrong. She lays down the law and Jack has to toe the line or he can get out. It's not the first time. The last time he laid outside the door like a dog and  begged her to forgive him. He didn't do it this time. He makes a great speech. Which seems totally a writers contrivance. It would be much more realistic if he walked out without the speech. But hey this is (TV) us. 

I don't know what they will do next season. I will be interested how they get out of this dead end. I expect Jack to beg forgiveness and come back and work at a job he doesn't like  to support his wife and kids who are all about to go to college. Until he dies. Meanwhile Rebecca can forget about getting a real job (which is one that you hate but pays the bills) and follow her dream at the open mike night. I just think they painted themselves into a corner.

 

numbers & emphasis mine

1) Between the drinks at the bar before he got started, the seat full of empty beer cans and them showing him struggling a little with his night vision, there is no "imagining", Jack was likely legally drunk driving.  And he went outside after drinking more in the bar and being falling-down drunk with the intention of driving.  If Rebecca had not intervened, Jack would have been in trouble.  

2) So, he should get praise for not being an abusive person to his wife and kids? Also, child care in 1980 averaged $66/hr x 3 kids = $198 a week.   So, her "value" in 1980 dollars would have been just over $10K.  A construction supervisor makes just over $25K.  So, her dollar value to the marriage didn't match Jack's but it's substantial. 

3) Dating two months when she was 19 is very limited history.  And you don't know if they were sleeping together. In the end, Jack WAS right, the guy wanted her. But Rebecca was crystal clear she loved her husband the week before when Ben tried to speak badly about him.  And Ben had ZERO encouragement from her. Her joining the band does not give Ben an open invitation to try and have sex with her. 

4) She said he needed space, she didn't "throw him out of the house" in some sort of screaming match.  She did NOT ask him to be contrite, she recognized that REAL issues were brought up the night before and she needed to think. NO where in the morning conversation did she demand an apology.  And the time before (7 years prior) was her putting her foot down on budding alcoholism.  All the experts will say that being firm about alcoholism is the only way to handle the issue successfully.   

Bottom Line: The interpretation that he's the poor downtrodden hen-pecked husband does NOT match what we've seen on screen. It doesn't match what the writers are saying in interviews.  What they've shown on screen is two people who love each other who have issues.  

Edited March 18, 2017 by SueB

[AmandaPanda]

1 hour ago, PepSinger said:

Just because other people do it doesn't make it right. Also, this was 1996. Drunk driving was highly illegal then. No excuse.

Exactly. I was 3 in 1993. I have a very strong memory of going to meet my dad in the garage one day when he was getting home from work. He was drinking a can of Coke. I looked him and told him that it wasn't safe to drink and drive. If a 3-year-old knew it 3 years earlier, a grown-ass man knew it in 1996. 

[Trooper York]

You can know it and still not care. That is realism. It is not right but that is just way it is. You can pretend that people don't do messed up stuff and look down on the poor slob.

You can hurt yourself if you fall off a high horse. Just sayn'

I think I will just take this to the unpopular opinions thread.

[luna1122]

1 minute ago, Trooper York said:

You can know it and still not care. That is realism. It is not right but that is just way it is. You can pretend that people don't do messed up stuff and look down on the poor slob.

You can hurt yourself if you fall off a high horse. Just sayn'

I think I will just take this to the unpopular opinions thread.

Well of course. Jack did an asshole thing. People do. It's real. Rebecca is imperfect and fucks up too. Why all the compassion and excuses for jack and zero for her? 

[Trooper York]

I guess I am like her kids.

I just don't like her.

[luna1122]

i don't really like her that much either. I just don't think she's the whore of Babylon. She's flawed. So's jack. They're both pretty annoying. 

[PepSinger]

Quote

I guess I am like her kids.

There is *zero* show canon to show that her children do not like her. It's not true.

[Guest]

She's such a thinly written character I don't know how any viewer can feel very strongly about her one way or the other.  There just isn't much there to really love or hate.  

[Trooper York]

Sure thing. They don't hate her.

Kevin resented her ignoring him in favor of Randall. Missing his milestones. Missing his shows.

Kate resented her for torturing with her weight. We only got brief touches but does she seem close to her Mom?

Randall was her favorite and gave her unconditional love until he found out she was lying to him for decades.

So maybe they don't hate her. But it sure seems like there is something there.

I just don't like her. I mean she beats out Carole Radizwill and Gabby Dawson but not by much.

[Nordly Beaumont]

On 3/15/2017 at 9:31 PM, AmandaPanda said:

Hated this episode. OK, not hated the whole thing - the part that I didn't hate bored me to tears.

It felt endless!

[Bringonthedrama]

1 hour ago, Trooper York said:

I guess I am like her kids.

I just don't like her.

It's clear that you don't like her. It also seems that you're making assumptions about her. The show hasn't really gotten into details of Rebecca's successes/failures as a young singer, how she truly felt about marriage or kids pre-Jack, what if any goals her parents wanted her to live up to, etc. The writing for these characters doesn't let you know about them at more than a surface level, or why these two connect.  Even one line from Jack during his "romantic speech" would have helped me, i.e. "I love you because I never get tired of hearing you explain the deeper meaning of the lyrics to *insert song name*." I would like to know that, maybe, she really knew she was in love with him, and vice versa, when he told off her mother for demeaning her about her singing (or the way she dressed, or something).  The couples I know who have lasting marriages have reasons for being together, beyond mutual attraction and love of the children they're raising - interest in travel, education/intellectual topics, faith, sports/athletics and more. They have mutual goals in life.  Jack is attractive, idealistic and romantic, Rebecca is attractive, Jack loves seeing her as a mother, and she has a pretty voice plus unsexy dance. They enjoyed watching sports together once she realized she liked seeing the teams in action on-screen. Okkkkk....that's it?! 

In this finale, Rebecca did not say she intended to make a career out of working with this specific band, nor did she say "I'm launching a career as a solo artist; deal with it." (Even though it's well known that the Rebecca actress, Mandy Moore, has made good money as a singer.) 

It is troubling that there seems to be more outrage from some posters over a woman leaving her husband and capable teen-agers for two weeks than there is about a man who is just really damn lucky he didn't kill himself or someone else while driving under the influence. He's also lucky that he didn't get beaten or arrested for starting a fight. Last I knew, a woman singing on stage is never the cause of the injury and/or death of innocent people. He could have left his three innocent children with Rebecca and no father/provider.  I acknowledge I say this as someone with a close friend, who lost her 19-year-old brother because he was under the influence and wrapped his car around a tree. Being buzzed or falling down drunk while driving cannot be justified or minimized in its seriousness. For someone to dismiss it with "just another Saturday night" and they can "roll the windows down and sober up" - Nope! Offensive.  The devastation to a family is horrific. Rebecca's anger with him over that is absolutely justified. When she said she hadn't noticed his drinking increasing, he responded with a line about her being gone a lot. That sounds dangerously close to 'it's your fault, you're not here to stop me from being my worst self' - instead of being accountable for his own actions. Then his "And?" made it sound like he doesn't have enough faith in her commitment to their vows to know without asking that nothing has happened between her and another man. He was mad she didn't disclose information about Ben - yet he doesn't ever tell her a lady co-worker, whom we can assume he sees on a weekly basis, flirts with him? I also agree with SueB that Rebecca did not 'throw him out of the house.' The scenes were not written or acted that way. 

A man who behaves like Jack does (including making major decisions without Rebecca)  is not a taken-advantage of, hen-pecked husband. These two have really significant communication issues they need to resolve. A bunch of the things Jack brought up that he's angry about, like sacrifices he's made, she can't know about if he doesn't tell her he's done them. Likewise, he can't know she's feeling like a ghost, unneeded by the kids, I need to do more with my life, etc. if she doesn't sit down with him and tell him what she's thinking. 

Right now, IMO, neither one of them is in a position to claim to be great spouse material.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Bringonthedrama

[SlackerInc]

People, don't let yourself be trolled.  The "ignore" feature is your friend.

13 hours ago, deaja said:

Unfortunately, even shooting it one way doesn't stop the promos from changing based on fan influence. It might eliminate some of the plots if they are changing them, but I think big plot points would still be made overwrought by the promos.  (Like the promos for "Memphis" ruined that episode for me.)

I've only ever seen one promo for this show: the one that broke Facebook records before the pilot aired, because I read an article about it and was curious.  I'm really glad not to have seen any others, because they sound obnoxious (I hate promos anyway, but these sound especially egregious).

[possibilities]

I'm not sure what part time job a woman who's been a SAHM for 16 or so years with no prior job experience can get that would pay more than whatever she makes singing. Her earning power is probably not going to set the world on fire. But we also didn't see Jack object to her singing because he wanted her to do something else that made more money. It was only about his fear of her having sex with her bandmate and his annoyance about her not being around all the time.

I don't think Rebecca is a feminist icon, and I was very hard on her about keeping William's existence from everyone else. I don't consider myself "team Rebecca." I also don't hate Jack or think he has no redeeming qualities. I think they have believable flaws both individually and in their marriage, and sometimes I think one of them is more wrong than the other on a particular issue. I also think they have some likable and good qualities both individually and as a couple. I think taking sides and blaming one of them for their problems is unfair. I think they've both made mistakes.

I think driving under the influence is a very serious mistake and at the moment I think that makes Jack seriously in the wrong not only in their marriage but also in a more general way. I also think the bad judgment he showed about planning to steal money from the bar was a signal that he's always had a reckless side and it's not all about his marriage. It's how he handles himself when he gets angry. To me, that's serious. So right now I'm coming down hard on Jack. Previously I was incredibly angry at Rebecca over hiding William. I think they've been showing us Jack's good qualities for most of the season, and Rebecca's flaws were on display. This episode felt to me like a bit of an attempt to show another side to them, but I think it would have been better if they'd done it in a more balanced way over the course of the season instead of making it so unbalanced until now.

[kili]

Quote

I'm not sure what part time job a woman who's been a SAHM for 16 or so years with no prior job experience can get that would pay more than whatever she makes singing. Her earning power is probably not going to set the world on fire. But we also didn't see Jack object to her singing because he wanted her to do something else that made more money.

Rebecca needs to find a paying job not because Jack wants her to earn money, but because she herself is complaining that he works too many hours. If she wants him to cut down on hours,  she could help her cause by finding a way to replace the money the family would lose by him doing so (even if he is not paid by the hour, he may lose  his current job if he isn't putting in the killer hours the boss or the job demands). 

Plus, should Jack die an untimely death, if Rebecca has a job, the family won't be left to starve in the hedgerows.

Now that the kids are older, she could get a daytime job so she doesn't feel like a ghost. The bonus of the daytime job is that she can still keep singing at night. A daytime job solves so many of her expressed complaints. 

[NutMeg]

21 hours ago, laurakaye said:

As a poster pointed out somewhere in this thread, if she absolutely needed this creative outlet, why not show her singing at church?  Or in some other type of venue - even karaoke night at the local bowling alley or something?  

Not everyone goes to church. Most people passionate about singing for real would laugh at karaoke night (I should know, my mom is a soprano who was rather famous locally once). And the rush of singing live to an audience is real.

19 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Good point. It boils down to trust. If Jack doesn't trust Rebecca, why is she his Madonna?

One of my favorite moments in Friday Night Lights, when some guy (a fellow teacher I think) kissed Tammy, and when the Coach found out about it, he just laughed. Because he had absolute faith in Tammy. Now that's what a solid marriage looks like.

Because of other threads on another show, I got to read interesting material about narcissistic personalities. Now, I don't think that is what Jack is here, but the way he sees Rebecca as his saviour and thinks everyone would see her as such, and the way he expands so much energy in making their marriage purr-fect, means to me that he's playing along with his internal image of what a perfect mariage should be, and doesn't really take his wife much into account. 

7 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

A man who behaves like Jack does (including making major decisions without Rebecca)  is not a taken-advantage of, hen-pecked husband. These two have really significant communication issues they need to resolve. A bunch of the things Jack brought up that he's angry about, like sacrifices he's made, she can't know about if he doesn't tell her he's done them. Likewise, he can't know she's feeling like a ghost, unneeded by the kids, I need to do more with my life, etc. if she doesn't sit down with him and tell him what she's thinking. 

Right now, IMO, neither one of them is in a position to claim to be great spouse material.

  I think there is indeed a communication issue, although now I'm starting to think Jack doesn't hear what doesn't fit his narrative of a perfect marriage/family. I don't know if there is such a thing as hero syndrome, but if there is, this guy sure has it.

Lastly, and I'm sorry I cannot remember who it was that said it, but whoever said above thread that we are not given full fledged characters so we project a lot on them was spot on. I wonder if it's accidental or deliberate. Projecting can be so powerful, as evidenced with reading this thread :) 

[sasha206]

44 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

Not everyone goes to church. Most people passionate about singing for real would laugh at karaoke night (I should know, my mom is a soprano who was rather famous locally once). And the rush of singing live to an audience is real.

Because of other threads on another show, I got to read interesting material about narcissistic personalities. Now, I don't think that is what Jack is here, but the way he sees Rebecca as his saviour and thinks everyone would see her as such, and the way he expands so much energy in making their marriage purr-fect, means to me that he's playing along with his internal image of what a perfect mariage should be, and doesn't really take his wife much into account. 

  I think there is indeed a communication issue, although now I'm starting to think Jack doesn't hear what doesn't fit his narrative of a perfect marriage/family. I don't know if there is such a thing as hero syndrome, but if there is, this guy sure has it.

Lastly, and I'm sorry I cannot remember who it was that said it, but whoever said above thread that we are not given full fledged characters so we project a lot on them was spot on. I wonder if it's accidental or deliberate. Projecting can be so powerful, as evidenced with reading this thread :) 

Jack's character lectures everyone on the sanctity of marriage.  Not just Rebecca, but any male who dares to want to have a golf day with his buddies to escape their wives.

I hate his character far more as Rebecca and that's primarily because of the ridiculous idealism.   I know people that are in love; I don't know anyone so in love that they lecture everyone else if their marriages fail.  I don't know anyone who would deal with a mate in a bad mood who then lectures their friends about wanting to "freeze time" not get away from them.  That's just not a normal response.  Rebecca's character is written in a more human way.  Jack seemed human that episode where he's drinking with Miguel bitching about his wife and getting Miguel telling him he's crazy.  But then the show morphed into his walking on water and being the romance book lover.

On her singing gig, it just feels like a hasty thing thrown in to give them some sort of marital strife that is separation worthy.  I have friends in bands that are her TV age.  They are in very good bands and they play at many events; some that are pretty big locally.  All of them have "real" jobs.  None of them are going on a 2 week tour.  They all do local gigs.  So to me, it just seems kind of silly that there's some cover band touring that is comprised of middle-aged folk.  Given that she rarely seems to work with them while they're in town, is this band a part-time gig for all of them?  I mean, the bandmates are a little long in the tooth for this to be some up and coming band that only does covers to now be getting  tour dates.

To me, it just seems like there's plenty of other material that would be marital strife worthy and they didn't need to throw in some silly two-week tour.  Seems like they could've very easily had the marital strife focus on the challenges of raising 3 children.  Hell, they could've had Jack figure out that she's kept Randall's birth father a secret from him.  That's certainly strife worthy.    Or they could've had her start feeling more isolated with kids growing up that don't need her as much and then her realizing that her life has pretty much been bulldozed by the man whose big love for her seems based more on an ideal than actual love of the person.  When she actually questioned that during the argument, there was some meat to that.  Instead, the writers have to follow it up with some ridiculous When Harry Met Sally love speech to make Jack that big romantic lush and her look like a dick for not running after him to come home.  

Edited March 18, 2017 by sasha206

[SueB]

15 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

When she actually questioned that during the argument, there was some meat to that.  Instead, the writers have to follow it up with some ridiculous When Harry Met Sally love speech to make Jack that big romantic lush and her look like a dick for not running after him to come home.  

I do get your point on this.  I think they couldn't end the season on such a downer.  So, it's definitely implies the writers are taking a Team Jack stance but I think they wanted to remind us, the viewers, that while the marriage is in trouble, it's got a good foundation.  And that there's hope it survives.

Personally, I'll be stunned if this is "it".  But perhaps the tragedy of the love story is that they didn't get to come back and fix it.  I don't know.  But that speech by Jack (and Rebecca's clear response to it) says to me they will (or would have been) ultimately okay.  

[sasha206]

Just now, SueB said:

I do get your point on this.  I think they couldn't end the season on such a downer.  So, it's definitely implies the writers are taking a Team Jack stance but I think they wanted to remind us, the viewers, that while the marriage is in trouble, it's got a good foundation.  And that there's hope it survives.

Personally, I'll be stunned if this is "it".  But perhaps the tragedy of the love story is that they didn't get to come back and fix it.  I don't know.  But that speech by Jack (and Rebecca's clear response to it) says to me they will (or would have been) ultimately okay.  

I don't think it will be "it" either.  I suspect they'll have Jack come back home after a couple of days, and then they'll slowly build a storyline around his drinking becoming more and more of a problem.  Of course, they'll have to explain how Kate decides that his death is her fault since it wasn't a drunk driving accident that trip to see Rebecca. I'm wondering if she blames that argument on his drinking demise and alcohol related death?

[Aloeonatable]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Jack's character lectures everyone on the sanctity of marriage.  Not just Rebecca, but any male who dares to want to have a golf day with his buddies to escape their wives.

I have to respectfully disagree. Jack didn't lecture Miguel and his friends, he merely told them he wasn't interested in playing golf, but would rather be home with his wife. Lecturing implies that they are wrong to not want the  same thing. I also do not find his devotion abnormal. JMO

[Clanstarling]

In my opinion, Jack's speech (lord he loves his speeches) may not have been a lecture, but it certainly came off as holier than thou. So, not saying they're wrong to not want the same thing, but that he's better than them as a husband. That's the way I took it, in any case. To be fair, I find grand gestures, and speechifying, off putting and not at all romantic. I also (unrelated to Jack) don't trust men who spout poetry.

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm getting sick of the Jack speeches. I said it a few pages back but it grates that Jack got the big romantic speech when Rebecca got to wake up in the morning and tell him she thinks that would be best for him to move out for a little. It makes me wonder is the writing team all males/mostly males? I'm curious and may have to look it up because they way they write Rebecca and the way Jack is written feels off.  I was a Jack lover and still sort of am but the intense Jack speeches are getting to be tiresome.

Someone brought up if Rebecca had a job that wasn't singing. If she had, the three kids- and Jack- may have lost her earlier and for a business trip possibly longer than two weeks.  And to answer another post about why she doesn't sing now.. well my guess is that Jacks death happens around this timeframe and she probably feels a lot of guilt and refuses to sing at all anymore. I'm sure the Rebecca haters will love that of my speculation turns out correct.

[sasha206]

52 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

I have to respectfully disagree. Jack didn't lecture Miguel and his friends, he merely told them he wasn't interested in playing golf, but would rather be home with his wife. Lecturing implies that they are wrong to not want the  same thing. I also do not find his devotion abnormal. JMO

Clanstarling said it better than me.  "Holier than Thou" speechisms that to me, feel so completely unbelievable.  Like something from a bad romance novel.

If it were my husband that told people that he wanted to "freeze time" after I spent hours bitching at him, I'd suggest to him he needs therapy.

Edited March 18, 2017 by sasha206

[Guest]

8 hours ago, kili said:

Rebecca needs to find a paying job not because Jack wants her to earn money, but because she herself is complaining that he works too many hours. If she wants him to cut down on hours,  she could help her cause by finding a way to replace the money the family would lose by him doing so (even if he is not paid by the hour, he may lose  his current job if he isn't putting in the killer hours the boss or the job demands). 

I think often it has nothing to do with money or job requirements when a man spends too much time at the office, and as much about priorities, which I think is the case here and why it bothers Rebecca.  

20 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm getting sick of the Jack speeches. I said it a few pages back but it grates that Jack got the big romantic speech when Rebecca got to wake up in the morning and tell him she thinks that would be best for him to move out for a little. It makes me wonder is the writing team all males/mostly males? I'm curious and may have to look it up because they way they write Rebecca and the way Jack is written feels off.  I was a Jack lover and still sort of am but the intense Jack speeches are getting to be tiresome.

It looks like Fogelman, another man and a woman wrote this one.  

I'm never a fan of monologues.  I think it's a cheap trick to make the writing seem profound.  Audiences are used to lines being concise, to move the story along.  So when a character goes on and on about something in a dramatic voice with florid prose, I think viewers minds unconsciously go to, "Oh, this is way longer than normal lines for one character.  It must be REALLY important, what he's saying!  And look how passionate he seems!  It doesn't really sound all that profound but the sheer length means it must be!  Especially with that dramatic score building behind it!"   

I guess it bugs me because I want people to be critical thinkers and not sucked in by the theatrics of a speech.  Maybe not so much because of television but it has serious implications in politics.  Well, and throughout real life.  A truly charismatic speaker can use it powerfully for good (MLK) or bad (Hitler).  

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think often it has nothing to do with money or job requirements when a man spends too much time at the office, and as much about priorities, which I think is the case here and why it bothers Rebecca.  

It looks like Fogelman, another man and a woman wrote this one.  

I'm never a fan of monologues.  I think it's a cheap trick to make the writing seem profound.  Audiences are used to lines being concise, to move the story along.  So when a character goes on and on about something in a dramatic voice with florid prose, I think viewers minds unconsciously go to, "Oh, this is way longer than normal lines for one character.  It must be REALLY important, what he's saying!  And look how passionate he seems!  It doesn't really sound all that profound but the sheer length means it must be!  Especially with that dramatic score building behind it!"   

I guess it bugs me because I want people to be critical thinkers and not sucked in by the theatrics of a speech.  Maybe not so much because of television but it has serious implications in politics.  Well, and throughout real life.  A truly charismatic speaker can use it powerfully for good (MLK) or bad (Hitler).  

AMEN.

I don't like these dramatic speeches.  I want REAL discussion.  You can still have a wonderfully written show without someone breaking out with these idealistic or romantic speeches.  I loved the movie "When Harry Met Sally" but the speech at the end irritated me and I feel like Fogelman drew heavily from this scene, only they chose to make Rebecca watch him walk out.

I love it when you're cold...ya da ya da ya da

[Clanstarling]

44 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think often it has nothing to do with money or job requirements when a man spends too much time at the office, and as much about priorities, which I think is the case here and why it bothers Rebecca.

There was at least one scene in the earlier episodes that showed Jack's "working late at the office" was him hanging on a barstool and not wanting to go home. Which had nothing to do with earning money and working hard for his family. Because of that scene, I never bought his sainthood. He might well have thought he wanted to freeze time before Rebecca gave birth, but he clearly wanted to piss it away later.

[sasha206]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

There was at least one scene in the earlier episodes that showed Jack's "working late at the office" was him hanging on a barstool and not wanting to go home. Which had nothing to do with earning money and working hard for his family. Because of that scene, I never bought his sainthood. He might well have thought he wanted to freeze time before Rebecca gave birth, but he clearly wanted to piss it away later.

That's why I was digging this show at first -- it showed the lovestory and then injected that realism.  But then it seemed like in between that episode and before the last couple of episodes, he became a big romantic lug of a saint.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Someone brought up if Rebecca had a job that wasn't singing. If she had, the three kids- and Jack- may have lost her earlier and for a business trip possibly longer than two weeks.  And to answer another post about why she doesn't sing now.. well my guess is that Jacks death happens around this timeframe and she probably feels a lot of guilt and refuses to sing at all anymore. I'm sure the Rebecca haters will love that of my speculation turns out correct.

True. We also don't know if Rebecca tried to get a job at some point during the sixteen years since her kids were born. We actually know very little about Rebecca and Jack's lives, if you think about it. We know a ton about Randall, about Kate, and about Kevin, but Rebecca/Jack are still somewhat mysteries. We still only see small snippets of their lives, so we don't actually know about what else Rebecca's done besides being a SAHM. We don't know if she tried to talk to Jack about finding a job for herself, we don't know if he discouraged her from doing so, we just don't know. That information could be given to us next season or in season three, when they decide that they want to make Jack look like a bad guy for two scenes. 

We could end up seeing a scene where Rebecca is wanting to look for a job and Jack gives his big speech about family and how she's a great mother and that he can make the money while she takes care of the kids, because that's what she's been good at for many years. We do know that Rebecca never wanted to be a wife and mother, so why did she allow Jack to influence her choices for sixteen years that do not align with who she is as a person? Why did she continue being a SAHM in the 80s and 90s? I'm thinking that those questions could be answered next season, if they're going to start giving Rebecca more sympathetic and positive traits. 

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

But we also didn't see Jack object to her singing because he wanted her to do something else that made more money. It was only about his fear of her having sex with her bandmate and his annoyance about her not being around all the time.

Well, this isn't exactly true. In this episode, during their fight, Jack finally explodes and blurts out some pretty harsh stuff.  I've decided to rewatch the fight scene, and he does bring up that he supports the family financially and "emotionally", seemingly to imply that her wanting to sing as a career is not enough. He even says that "singing in a pub/bar is not a career, it is RIDICULOUS". 

Also, I didn't realize how cruel Jack was during that fight. He said that he was supporting the family financially and emotionally. Emotionally? What, is Rebecca not doing that either? Is she just lounging around, then? Ok, I do see his point because we do know how she treats Kevin and Kate compared to Randall. But the fact that Jack's noticed and does bring it up to her really does say a lot. And Rebecca is also right when she's said that he wanted this life with a house, kids, and a marriage and she went along with it. It goes to show that she does really love Jack, or else she wouldn't have gone through with many of those things. Well, the kids part was pretty unavoidable (unless she had an abortion, but I don't see her doing that in the early 80s), but everything else was more by choice. She could have said no to marriage, no to the house, no to being a stay at home mom, but she did choose that life for Jack. So they both have definitely sacrificed a lot, but it's easy to forget that Rebecca's had her selfless moments because her selfish moments have bombarded the season. 

Also, it seems like Jack hasn't told Rebecca about the professional sacrifices he's made for the family, so Rebecca can't be blamed for not knowing what he's given up. 

[ShadowFacts]

37 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

There was at least one scene in the earlier episodes that showed Jack's "working late at the office" was him hanging on a barstool and not wanting to go home. Which had nothing to do with earning money and working hard for his family. Because of that scene, I never bought his sainthood. He might well have thought he wanted to freeze time before Rebecca gave birth, but he clearly wanted to piss it away later.

You do know how to turn a phrase!  If I remember that scene, Miguel mentions that Jack has got his drink at 5:05 or something like that (I'm probably off on the details), so it seems in that time period, he wasn't necessarily working 10 hour+ days all the time.  Maybe at that time he was feeling like he did in the early seventies in the car with Daryl, that he was doing all the right things, but things weren't breaking for him the way he wanted.  A pretty common feeling I suppose, but they don't tend to hand out medals for doing the right thing.  Both Jack and Rebecca had pent-up feelings of unfulfillment and being under-appreciated. 

[sasha206]

45 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

Also, I didn't realize how cruel Jack was during that fight. 

 

Well, it was probably long overdue given how he apparently was sooooooooo in loooooooooooooooooooooooove wanting to freeze time!  :)

[DrSpaceman73]

Seems like a lot of this was a lack of communication on Rebecca's part.  She never told Jack about the band partner being her ex, even if it was just for two months at 19 years old.  And she never explicitly told Jack how and why this singing tour was important to her.  If she had told him how she feels like a "ghost" and less needed by the kids before going on the trip, things may have been different. 

Of course getting drunk and driving hours, then hitting a guy in a bar didn't help Jack's cause any either. 

Also open mic nights all over the city are hardly a sign of real talent or a future as a singer.  And it seems her close friends were trying to tell her she may not make it and needs another plan as well, so I find it hard to believe she had much of a chance to or gave up much in singing to become a mother.  AND there is the fact they were together AT LEAST 5 years before they had kids, during which time she had plenty of opportunity to continue to pursue a singing career and it did not go far.  We know at the Superbowl party in 1979 I believe (this episode was 1972) she sang for free alcohol in a bar. 7+ years after they met, that's how far her career had taken her, which is not much farther than she was it seems when they met.  She had her chance in basically most of her 20s it seems for her singing career and never made it far.   It doesn't seem she had much of a career path she really gave up at the time of becoming a mother.  Its not like she got married at 18 right out of high school and never had opportunities. 

But then yes, she was building on a chance at an older age to sing ago.  They both just handled it in about the worst way possible.  And no I don't think Jack had been "working" late every night until 8 PM, likely was drinking after work. 

And now Kate as well wants to try and be a singer too......uggghhhh.  Really? 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

And no I don't think Jack had been "working" late every night until 8 PM, likely was drinking after work.

Weren't we led to believe that he had his first drink in years after he and Rebecca had their Valentine's Day fight?

I may be confused about the timeline, but here's how I understood it:

Jack starts drinking frequently with Miguel after work in 1989. Rebecca calls him out on it and he stops cold turkey. Wouldn't even have one beer at the pool in the following episode. Shortly after that, the Randall private school thing comes up, and Jack takes a job with Miguel instead of starting his own company. That's when he starts working long hours at the office. Things continue like that until fall 1995 (the football episode), when Rebecca starts singing with the band locally. Jack rearranges his schedule so he can be there for the kids' activities while Rebecca is rehearsing/performing. He's not too happy about it, telling Miguel and Shelly at dinner (right before *they* announce their divorce) that if he wants to see his wife, he has to come to one of her shows. On their wedding anniversary in early 1996 Rebecca asks to go on tour, and Jack initially agrees, but then he comes to her V-Day show, sees her and Ben eye-fuck, and finds out from Ben that Rebecca used to date him. They have the big fight, Jack goes to their V-Day dinner date alone, and that's when he has his first drink since 1989. Rebecca's statement in the season finale that he "quit cold turkey seven years ago" supports that.

Edited March 18, 2017 by chocolatine

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

In my opinion, Jack's speech (lord he loves his speeches) may not have been a lecture, but it certainly came off as holier than thou.

I didn't see it that way. Miguel and his friends were the ones lecturing Jack on how he should take advantage of time away from Rebecca. According to them, once the triplets were born Jack would want to get away and have a hobby like golf. Jack just simply disagreed. 

[ProudMary]

18 hours ago, SueB said:

Since Mandy Moore has has one platinum and two gold albums prior to turning to acting (starting at 15), I'd say money has been made from the actress that plays her. Sure, it's bubble-gum pop but I suspect it's more money from singing than people criticizing her have made.

And in-universe to "This is Us", she's clearly a talented singer who never got the career she was hoping for.  Honestly, as Mrs Future Money-Bags was saying, it's a 1 in a million shot to make it big, even with an excellent voice.  Rebecca was shown to be bringing in SOME money from singing. I'm sure it wasn't a lot but she was, in fact, getting paid to sing and because AFTER she joined the band, they booked a 10 city tour, she clearly improved the band's performance.  You may not like her singing personally, but show canon (and real life) does not support anything OTHER than she's an excellent singer.

  5 HOURS AGO,  @Trooper York     SAID:

numbers & emphasis mine

1) Between the drinks at the bar before he got started, the seat full of empty beer cans and them showing him struggling a little with his night vision, there is no "imagining", Jack was likely legally drunk driving.  And he went outside after drinking more in the bar and being falling-down drunk with the intention of driving.  If Rebecca had not intervened, Jack would have been in trouble.  

2) So, he should get praise for not being an abusive person to his wife and kids? Also, child care in 1980 averaged $66/hr x 3 kids = $198 a week.   So, her "value" in 1980 dollars would have been just over $10K.  A construction supervisor makes just over $25K.  So, her dollar value to the marriage didn't match Jack's but it's substantial. 

3) Dating two months when she was 19 is very limited history.  And you don't know if they were sleeping together. In the end, Jack WAS right, the guy wanted her. But Rebecca was crystal clear she loved her husband the week before when Ben tried to speak badly about him.  And Ben had ZERO encouragement from her. Her joining the band does not give Ben an open invitation to try and have sex with her. 

4) She said he needed space, she didn't "throw him out of the house" in some sort of screaming match.  She did NOT ask him to be contrite, she recognized that REAL issues were brought up the night before and she needed to think. NO where in the morning conversation did she demand an apology.  And the time before (7 years prior) was her putting her foot down on budding alcoholism.  All the experts will say that being firm about alcoholism is the only way to handle the issue successfully.   

Bottom Line: The interpretation that he's the poor downtrodden hen-pecked husband does NOT match what we've seen on screen. It doesn't match what the writers are saying in interviews.  What they've shown on screen is two people who love each other who have issues.  

Please envision me on my feet applauding because this entire post merits a standing ovation!  Bravo!

Most importantly for point #2.  SAHM's never seem to get the proper FINANCIAL credit they deserve for their contribution to a marriage.  When a couple with children purchases life insurance, the figure is usually based on what it would potentially cost to have someone there for childcare, someone to shop, cook, clean, chauffeur, etc. if the SAHM were to die. If anything, I think your calculation of the financial worth of Rebecca's contribution to the Pearson marriage is on the low side, even for 20 years ago!

17 hours ago, AmandaPanda said:

Exactly. I was 3 in 1993. I have a very strong memory of going to meet my dad in the garage one day when he was getting home from work. He was drinking a can of Coke. I looked him and told him that it wasn't safe to drink and drive. If a 3-year-old knew it 3 years earlier, a grown-ass man knew it in 1996. 

First, let me say that your story is adorable!  I'll bet your dad has shared that for years.

From personal experience, I recall being stopped at my first DUI checkpoint in 1981, where the officer actually handed me a small brochure on the then new program as he explained the procedure.  By 1996, DUI had been a big deal for at least a decade and more like 15 years.  There are NO excuses for Jack's illegal behavior that night.

15 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

It is troubling that there seems to be more outrage from some posters over a woman leaving her husband and capable teen-agers for two weeks than there is about a man who is just really damn lucky he didn't kill himself or someone else while driving under the influence. He's also lucky that he didn't get beaten or arrested for starting a fight. Last I knew, a woman singing on stage is never the cause of the injury and/or death of innocent people. He could have left his three innocent children with Rebecca and no father/provider.  I acknowledge I say this as someone with a close friend, who lost her 19-year-old brother because he was under the influence and wrapped his car around a tree. Being buzzed or falling down drunk while driving cannot be justified or minimized in its seriousness. For someone to dismiss it with "just another Saturday night" and they can "roll the windows down and sober up" - Nope! Offensive.  The devastation to a family is horrific. Rebecca's anger with him over that is absolutely justified. When she said she hadn't noticed his drinking increasing, he responded with a line about her being gone a lot. That sounds dangerously close to 'it's your fault, you're not here to stop me from being my worst self' - instead of being accountable for his own actions. Then his "And?" made it sound like he doesn't have enough faith in her commitment to their vows to know without asking that nothing has happened between her and another man. He was mad she didn't disclose information about Ben - yet he doesn't ever tell her a lady co-worker, whom we can assume he sees on a weekly basis, flirts with him? I also agree with SueB that Rebecca did not 'throw him out of the house.' The scenes were not written or acted that way. 

And, we still don't know for sure that this isn't what ultimately happens if 1996 Jack continues the behavior.  (The part I bolded.)

13 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

People, don't let yourself be trolled.  The "ignore" feature is your friend.

I have a few people on my ignore list, yet their posts are still appearing.  Don't know what's up with that.

[Guest]

It does seem like the 'ignore' feature is sometimes spotty (especially on a phone, where I'm not sure if it works at all) but make sure the person is not just on your ignore list but that you've also specified what you want ignored (e.g., posts).  I think you can have them on there with nothing checked and it does nothing.  

[laurakaye]

17 hours ago, Bringonthedrama said:

It's clear that you don't like her. It also seems that you're making assumptions about her. The show hasn't really gotten into details of Rebecca's successes/failures as a young singer, how she truly felt about marriage or kids pre-Jack, what if any goals her parents wanted her to live up to, etc. The writing for these characters doesn't let you know about them at more than a surface level, or why these two connect.  Even one line from Jack during his "romantic speech" would have helped me, i.e. "I love you because I never get tired of hearing you explain the deeper meaning of the lyrics to *insert song name*." I would like to know that, maybe, she really knew she was in love with him, and vice versa, when he told off her mother for demeaning her about her singing (or the way she dressed, or something).  The couples I know who have lasting marriages have reasons for being together, beyond mutual attraction and love of the children they're raising - interest in travel, education/intellectual topics, faith, sports/athletics and more. They have mutual goals in life.  Jack is attractive, idealistic and romantic, Rebecca is attractive, Jack loves seeing her as a mother, and she has a pretty voice plus unsexy dance. They enjoyed watching sports together once she realized she liked seeing the teams in action on-screen. Okkkkk....that's it?! 

I liked your whole post, especially the lines in bold.  To me, those first bold lines are the core problem with this show, and the last bold part is the resulting sentiment that some of us seem to share because of that first part.  Do the writers want us to make assumptions based on what they've given us?  Or do they think that all that sobbing we're doing is the "hook," and as for those pesky details?  The writers will just make them up later on.  I don't think a good drama works that way.  I can't help but compare this show to a drama like "Mad Men."  In MM, we were shown plenty of signs, clues, exchanged looks, etc.  And while might not have known what those clues meant at the time, we found out, and we didn't have to wait an entire season for satisfaction.  That's the way to hook viewers - make the characters act in ways that at first you can't explain, but in a couple of episodes, it makes sense.  Where TIU fails for me is that the characters act a certain way but we aren't given much - if anything - in the way of those precious clues, so they all become stereotypes and cliches.   And if the idea is to dole out the facts season after season, well...after 18 episodes, I should at least have an idea of what's coming.  I don't know, and because of that, I don't care.

 

 

9 hours ago, sasha206 said:

On her singing gig, it just feels like a hasty thing thrown in to give them some sort of marital strife that is separation worthy.

 

Regarding her singing gig...I feel like this is only a part of the show at all because Mandy Moore is a singer.  I fully expect a soon-to-be-released CD of Mandy Moore crooning songs from "This is Us," and I expect it will be a best seller, and that we will see a video of the cast expounding on how wonderful it is.

Edited March 18, 2017 by laurakaye

[jhlipton]

18 hours ago, Trooper York said:

I just don't like her. I mean she beats out Carole Radizwill and Gabby Dawson but not by much.

I think we got that -- and I see a pattern. 

[SlackerInc]

@Winston9-DT3 Yes, good point: you have to check the "posts" box. 

6 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

I have to respectfully disagree. Jack didn't lecture Miguel and his friends, he merely told them he wasn't interested in playing golf, but would rather be home with his wife. Lecturing implies that they are wrong to not want the  same thing. 

I'm at a loss to understand how that was not a lecture.  I thought the most you could defend it would be to say he was right and they were wrong.  Even then, it was very much "holier than thou", and I had a hard time understanding why any of them would want to hang out with him again after that. 

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, the kids part was pretty unavoidable (unless she had an abortion, but I don't see her doing that in the early 80s), but everything else was more by choice.

You have it backwards, which makes me curious to know if this is a common erroneous belief. Abortion was almost twice as common then as now, and 1979-1981 saw a higher proportion of pregnancies aborted than any other three year span in recorded American history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It does seem like the 'ignore' feature is sometimes spotty (especially on a phone, where I'm not sure if it works at all) but make sure the person is not just on your ignore list but that you've also specified what you want ignored (e.g., posts).  I think you can have them on there with nothing checked and it does nothing.  

 

53 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

@Winston9-DT3 Yes, good point: you have to check the "posts" box. 

Thank you both.  I went back to my Ignore List and "Changed Ignored Content."  It seems you have to do it for each individual person.  

[sasha206]

52 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

@Winston9-DT3 Yes, good point: you have to check the "posts" box. 

I'm at a loss to understand how that was not a lecture.  I thought the most you could defend it would be to say he was right and they were wrong.  Even then, it was very much "holier than thou", and I had a hard time understanding why any of them would want to hang out with him again after that. 

Amen!  I remember on this board there were so many that thought the golf guys were awful.  I couldn't understand that.  We all need breaks from spouses.  We all bitch to our friends about them.  That's normal.  If I had talked about needing a girls weekend with my friends and they shut me down saying they wanted to freeze time, I'd think they were assholes.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

You have it backwards, which makes me curious to know if this is a common erroneous belief. Abortion was almost twice as common then as now, and 1979-1981 saw a higher proportion of pregnancies aborted than any other three year span in recorded American history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_statistics_in_the_United_States

Ah! Thanks for the information! I wasn't sure about that fact. Although, in terms of Rebecca as a person, I don't see her going for an abortion BECAUSE of her love for Jack at that time. I don't think he would have supported her decision at all, and it seems like Rebecca did a whole lot to make her husband happy at that time. 

14 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Amen!  I remember on this board there were so many that thought the golf guys were awful.  I couldn't understand that.  We all need breaks from spouses.  We all bitch to our friends about them.  That's normal.  If I had talked about needing a girls weekend with my friends and they shut me down saying they wanted to freeze time, I'd think they were assholes.

I am pretty sure I was one of those people. Even if it was only a few episodes ago, I think my train of thought was how could they encourage Jack to "escape" from his wife? I think it was mostly the term and the way the golf guys presented a golf weekend. Since none of them seemed to particularly enjoy golf (I THINK they said they were no good and they didn't really like it), wouldn't it have been better to find another activity that they could enjoy while spending some time away from the family? Instead, they did have the scene presented as if the guys were only playing golf to escape, not to bond or have fun or whatever. 

But now, as I compare the season as a whole and realize the issues when it comes to Jack's characterization, it doesn't seem as bad. Also, that reminds me about how they made Rebecca look like an awful person once more by having her forget Jack's birthday. She actually can't go one episode without the writing making her look like a monster or something. 

[sasha206]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

 

Regarding her singing gig...I feel like this is only a part of the show at all because Mandy Moore is a singer.  I fully expect a soon-to-be-released CD of Mandy Moore crooning songs from "This is Us," and I expect it will be a best seller, and that we will see a video of the cast expounding on how wonderful it is.

Exactly!

Hell, maybe next season a young, chubby Kate will join her mother on stage, a la young chubby Wynona Judd, and they Pearsons (now known as "The Pudds") will go on a tour.  Jack discovers Rebecca was sexing the drummer before she dated the keyboardist, gets drunks on his way to their concert, drives his car off a cliff.  That's the end of that idealistic mother fucker!  

[Trooper York]

6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

She actually can't go one episode without the writing making her look like a monster or something. 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[sasha206]

5 minutes ago, Trooper York said:

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Trooper York's hatred of Rebecca makes me giggle.  And of course, I always enjoyed your hatred of Radziwill from the RHONY board!

Edited March 19, 2017 by sasha206

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It looks like Fogelman, another man and a woman wrote this one.  

From reading up on how TV writing staffs work, it seems that the showrunner establishes the overall tone and style and the credited writers are there to make his or her vision and voice consistent throughout the individual episodes and story arcs. Thus Dan Fogelman's gender and take on Jack, Rebecca and the other characters dominates. Sure they will all pitch ideas and give their perspectives but any staff writer who wants the show to be fundamentally different from what the showrunner envisions won't be around long. Also, the showrunner generally takes a final pass at all scripts so that they sound like they were written by the same person.

It's fascinating the access we now have to TV writers and producers but sometimes I think it does more harm than good. With all its flaws, I would have enjoyed Lost much more if I weren't seething with anger every time Damon Lindelof misdirected or whined.

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Cardie said:

It's fascinating the access we now have to TV writers and producers but sometimes I think it does more harm than good. With all its flaws, I would have enjoyed Lost much more if I weren't seething with anger every time Damon Lindelof misdirected or whined.

It's one of the reasons I rarely pay attention to anything outside of the episode. I decided to let the work speak for itself, after I realized I spent too much time kvetching about showrunners.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Clanstarling

[HeyThere83]

I just read an interview, and if I read it correctly, the inspiration for Jack is Dan Fogelman himself. I had never read that before, so I am going to double check what I read. But if that's true it would explain so much.

Just double checked, and yes, it says that he based Jack on himself and had originally envisioned someone more "average" looking in the role, but hired Milo for it.

[Cardie]

26 minutes ago, HeyThere83 said:

Just double checked, and yes, it says that he based Jack on himself and had originally envisioned someone more "average" looking in the role, but hired Milo for it.

!?! Yes, he obviously gave up his dreams of show biz to toil in a job he hated--not. His idyllic marriage has been going on for two long years and they don't have any children.

[Bringonthedrama]

2 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I liked your whole post, especially the lines in bold.  To me, those first bold lines are the core problem with this show, and the last bold part is the resulting sentiment that some of us seem to share because of that first part.  Do the writers want us to make assumptions based on what they've given us?  O

 

Thank you! I wanted to comment on your note here because I I see it as a definite problem for actors Milo and Mandy. I believe both M&M are talented and doing the best they can with what little they have to go on - otherwise their part of the show wouldn't have gotten significant positive attention thus far. Mandy in particular has gotten some shade for her portrayal of Rebecca.  Yet she can only act based on what she's reading in the script, and what direction she's been given regarding motivation. Not sure if anyone here has seen Saved!, a movie where MM starred when she was much younger. Her character was self-righteous (mostly due to her upbringing, it seemed), controlling in 'friendships', and in time angry and jealous, too.  The storyline, including her lines in a rant, spelled out her motivations quite well. In the last 10 minutes or so of the movie, she has a breakdown. Her acting (with two others) was quite strong; the lines and her tone and posture left no question about her getting real with herself.  MM is capable of a really solid performance - when the writing tells her what she is feeling and why she's doing this.

I feel like something similar happened to Milo in the past, when he played Jess on Gilmore Girls.  He was 'angry, misbehaving, school-is-a-waste teen who falls for Rory.'  Milo could have done so much more with the character, had the writing for Jess in his relationships with several characters gone deeper rather than just being 80-90 percent surface.  I thought Milo was excellent in his line deliveries (and facial acting) in the series. Jess had the potential to be a pretty interesting and complex character.