S01.E04: Push Comes to Shove

[humbleopinion]

Knowing how much Madeline hates Bonnie,  Ed showing up at Bonnie's  studio is not plausible.

That is what texting is for... Ed.

 

On a side note... the actor playing Ziggy has been cast as a young Sheldon Cooper in a Big Bang spin off.

Link to story in BLL in the Media.

Edited March 13, 2017 by humbleopinion
more stuff

[LucyHoneychrrch]

A few things.

The moment Perry had to take after his abortive attempt to grab Celeste in the morning was more terrifying to me than anything else that has happened in this show.

Based on their interactions this episode, is it me or does Bonnie seem to barely tolerate Nathan?

I don't think Ed's a creeper; I just think he's completely socially awkward. I really like the character of Nathan so far -- his interactions with Chloe are my favorite, and I think he's a great foil for Madeleine -- but I think the interlude of Ed at Bonnie's studio serves a very specific purpose in this show. The great overarching theme seems to be that anyone can be capable of violence, and Ed's awkwardness at the studio can be read in so many different ways.

When Perry flipped over the price tag on Celeste's suit I nearly choked at the price. $4,095.00 for one suit for one meeting. omg.

[iggysaurus]

Do we have any good reason to assume that whoever raped Jane is another one of the main male characters? Did that incident even take place in Monterey? I keep seeing people speculating about who it will turn out to be, but my initial assumption was that this was a totally separate incident that happened to Jane in the past before she moved to Monterey, and that its purpose in storyline is just to give Jane a back story and illustrate the difficulty she has with raising Ziggy alone and fitting into the new town. In real life it would be very unlikely that she would just happen to become friends with the wife of the man who raped her 6 years ago when she was living somewhere else.  I realize that unrealistic twists happen all the time in TV shows but it doesn't necessarily mean this show will handle it that way. Maybe Jane's rapist really is just some random guy, not an important member of the present-day cast. Seems kind of like it would be a cheap contrivance to have it be like "....and by sheer coincidence, it turns out that the mysterious man who raped Jane all those years ago is the same man who is currently the abusive husband of one of Jane's friends in her new town!" or whatever.  I could totally be wrong though.  I'm reading the book so maybe I'll find out soon.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Am I the only one who has found Nathan pretty sympathetic so far?  I see his point in most of these arguments.  I would get annoyed with stuff like spending $9000 on grounding a house against electromagnetic energy to address Maddy's irrational fear of brain cancer, too, or not being able to wear insect repellent while camping, or having to arrange a dinner with Maddy and Ed, who act consistently like jerks to Bonnie and Nathan.  

On the contrary: Nathan whining about how awful it is to try to make one's spouse happy, like that's some sort of enormous burden for him and he deserves some sort of award for it, is entirely consistent with other episodes where he's shown himself to be a selfish and oblivious piece of garbage. I also fail to see how Nathan abandoning Abigail at a young age to be cared for by Madeline--an action Nathan shrugs off with "I was an asshole back then"--could ever be viewed as "pretty sympathetic." I'm not sure how much sympathy Nathan should properly attract, if any.

Even if Nathan were correct in all the attitudes he has expressed, and in everything he has done--and I think that is at the very least debatable--he has expressed his attitudes and defended his actions in such an aggressive, resentful, petulant, and downright unpleasant manner that for me it erases whatever sympathy I might have otherwise felt for him. He is completely repulsive to me. He's a very specific, easily recognizable type of asshole: the guy who acts as if showing the tiniest shred of consideration for others is a huge inconvenience and an intolerable burden. The Nathans of the world are legion, and they are awful.

I also question your claim that Madeline and Ed "consistently act like jerks to Bonnie and Nathan." As I recall, Bonnie took Madeline's daughter to Planned Parenthood without informing her, which Madeline correctly found an appalling disregard for her boundaries, and Nathan insulted and tried to bully Ed. Let's not pretend that Bonnie and Nathan are the saintly ones enduring Madeline and Ed's crazy; Bonnie and Nathan crossed plenty of lines.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Guest]

There's no talk of legal issues between them so I assume he's kept current on child support.  Some parents make it virtually impossible for the other parent to have any involvement in the parenting, outside of the finances.  Maddy's still seething with anger with him all this time later so I can imagine she gave him incentive to leave the parenting to her.  Not that that it excuses it.  But I don't feel like the man should be hanged at this point.   There are a lot of aggressive, petulant, resentful characters-- Maddy included.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by Guest

[Razzberry]

27 minutes ago, iggysaurus said:

 

 Did that incident even take place in Monterey?

 

The beach and curvature of the bay as seen through the hotel window is Monterey.   I can't think of anything pointing to one of the known males other than general douchbaggery.  Perry seems too obvious.

[Kbilly]

Was it me or was that a really bad voice replacement for Adam Scott? Because why would he make Elvis sound so nasally?? From Step Brothers, we know Adam Scott has some pipes. 

If I'm so afraid that I keep a gun at my bedside I wouldn't leave my front door open probably.

Quote

That's my problem with every tv show/movie where someone just shows up at someone else's job and wants to have a conversation

I would be pissed if in the middle of a YogaFightClub class I probably paid $$$$$ for, the instructor is like "Be right back!"

Edited March 13, 2017 by Kbilly

[Eyes High]

37 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

There's no talk of legal issues between them so I assume he's kept current on child support.  

I think that's a big assumption. Lots of moms faced with deadbeat dads choose not to pursue child support aggressively in the face of nonpayment because it's not worth the financial or psychological hassle. Besides, even if Nathan is current on child support--which is a basic obligation, not something for which any parent should be applauded--that doesn't excuse his unilateral decision to abandon Abigail.

Quote

Some parents make it virtually impossible for the other parent to have any involvement in the parenting, outside of the finances.  Maddy's still seething with anger with him all this time later so I can imagine she gave him incentive to leave the parenting to her.  

First of all, there's no basis to believe that Madeline "gave him incentive" to leave the parenting to her. She is upset at Nathan precisely because he's playing the devoted daddy for Skye when he didn't do so for Abigail. She's angry and resentful that he couldn't be a caring father to Abigail, and there is no suggestion that Nathan made attempts to be a good parent in the past which were thwarted by Madeline's rage. If anything, Nathan seems to accept Madeline's version of events, if only to try to gloss over his past sins with half-baked justifications, in classic asshole fashion.

Second of all, even if "she gave him incentive," which there's no basis to believe as I have said, that's no excuse. Fathers can fight to be involved co-parents after the end of a relationship if they want to, and in fact many do and succeed, no matter how angry and resentful the mother is. In fact, in extreme circumstances, if the mother shows herself so angry and resentful towards the father that she cannot accept him as a coparent, the court might turn around and award custody to the father instead. So fathers can and do fight to help raise their children. The show spells out that Nathan didn't even try. Thus his expansive and dismissive "I was an asshole back then" to shrug off his abandonment of his wife and child.

Quote

Not that that it excuses it.  But I don't feel like the man should be hanged at this point.  

It kind of feels like you are excusing it, though. No, he shouldn't be "hanged," but there are some things no one can really come back from. Abandoning one's child is one of those things. Compounding the issue is that Nathan seems to show no real awareness or guilt.

Quote

There are a lot of aggressive, petulant, resentful characters-- Maddy included.  

No argument here. But you suggested that you found Nathan "pretty sympathetic," and I don't see how anyone could reasonably view him as such in light of what we've seen so far, except maybe Nathan himself, who seems to view himself as a great martyr beset by people asking him to care about others' feelings. As for Madeline, for all her flaws, she has redeeming qualities. I have yet to see that Nathan has any.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Eyes High

[Guest]

Maddy has insulted Bonnie in every scene they've shared, I think.  Not subtle stuff, either.   And if course there's nothing subtle about her jabs to Nathan.  It's hand waved as justified because we see she's hurt and with all the offenses we hear her side of it only.  

But she's been shown to be an unreliable narrator.  Joseph "forced himself on" her, for example.  If we hadn't seen snippets of that scene ourselves we'd be spewing epithets about him, too.  

[Mabinogia]

21 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

If I'm so afraid that I keep a gun at my bedside I wouldn't leave my front door open probably.

That whole sequence I kept saying to me tv "shut the front door"! After that home invasion nightmare you'd think she's shut it lock it and double lock it. But nope, she not only leaves the main door open she leaves the screen door open to. Does she live in a barn?

[vixenbynight]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Just 1 thing to add to abusive relationship of Perry and Celeste.  At 1 point he said something along the line of "Sometimes I wonder, do you want me to hit you? "  That was one kind of sick and twisted, but then Celeste's expression was along the line of "I wonder that too".  Ugh

It's another way for the abuser to "pass the buck (blame)" of their abusive behavior onto the victim.

Perry truly believes that he's terrified of losing Celeste, but he also continues to blame her for keeping things from him, lying, wanting to keep the kids to herself and "making him" react that way to her. 

Sadly, Celeste does think that she "causes" Perry to react that way and that's why when right after he reacts violently towards her, she ends up being receptive to his sexual advances, even being coerced into having sex with him.

Their kids are observing and retaining horrible images of how to express emotion (good and bad) towards others. I recall the scene in the first episode, in which Perry was groping Celeste in front of their children.

[humbleopinion]

About the price of the suit...

The jacket is $4,000

The skirt is probably $2,000-3,000

The blouse with the bow $1,000-1,500

Now you can gasp....

[Gem 10]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

Ed seems so creepy this episode...talking about the sweaty women and his whole convo with Bonnie seems off kilter.
I love how Maddie's first instinct after being told about the rape...is to look for the rapist.
The teacher asking the child about Ziggy is an example of why people being abused lie when on the spot. They feel uncomfortable, scared and are being pressured to give a name
 

Ed's beard is creepy.  I'm used to seeing him clean shaven in other movies.  (Only talking about Ed, not guys in general).

[susannot]

27 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

About the price of the suit...

The jacket is $4,000

The skirt is probably $2,000-3,000

The blouse with the bow $1,000-1,500

Now you can gasp....

Serves Perry right.  Who is the designer?  Sharply dressed female lawyers impress and intimidate clients, opposing counsel, opposing clients, and judges.  Not so much juries, though.

 

I realize some of you will disagree with me.  Love it that there are quite a few female lawyers on this thread.  The one thing we all agree upon is that we loved Celeste's legal performance.

Edited March 13, 2017 by susannot

[Atlanta]

1 hour ago, Kbilly said:

I would be pissed if in the middle of a YogaFightClub class I probably paid $$$$$ for, the instructor is like "Be right back!"

Hee! YogaFightClub! I took a yoga class at my gym and the teacher taught multiple classes a day at different gyms. I get she was tired teaching so much but she barely demonstrated the moves. You can't do that in exercise class, esp yoga. She no longer teaches there.

[humbleopinion]

Have my black belt in shopping and am just going on what the rest of the ensemble would cost going on the price of the jacket.

Am positive there is someone out there in the world wide web who has identified the designer of the suit.

More interested in what wine Madeleine is guzzling.

[Auntie Anxiety]

I get the feeling that Celeste has been conditioned not to tell Perry stuff that is going on because she doesn't know what will set him off; the less she tells him, the less he'll go ballistic about. That's part of the crazy-making. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

AS is doing a great job with the acting. Every time Perry is on the screen,  I get a sense of foreboding. If anyone watched the first season of Bloodline on Netflix, he's the same type of character as the oldest brother (can't remember his name). You never knew what he was going to do or what he was capable of, but you always knew it would end badly because the guy is an untethered mess. 

[mochamajesty]

22 minutes ago, susannot said:

Serves Perry right.  Who is the designer?  Sharply dressed female lawyers impress and intimidate clients, opposing counsel, opposing clients, and judges.  Not so much juries, though.

 

I realize some of you will disagree with me.  Love it that there are quite a few female lawyers on this thread.  The one thing we all agree upon is that we loved Celeste's legal performance.

 

 

 

LOL

It's not your opinion on Celeste's clothing that I disagree with, but   the fact that you think that she is immune from Perry's abuse because she is a lawyer.

1 hour ago, Kbilly said:

I would be pissed if in the middle of a YogaFightClub class I probably paid $$$$$ for, the instructor is like "Be right back!"

 

 

 

 

When Bonnie stepped away, another instructor took her place.  That would be fine with me. I would assume that she needed to use the restroom or had an emergency call. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by mochamajesty
to make response less rude.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Kbilly said:

From Step Brothers, we know Adam Scott has some pipes.

You're joking?  Haha.  I'd bet my condo that Adam was lipsyncing in Step Brothers.

[tennisgurl]

Wow, Perry really showed his real colors this week. Maybe he does have some insecurities, but that's all minor stuff compared to his control freak tendencies, and his ability to go from violent abuser to loving husband/father. Its just creepy. I take back what I said last week about him being somewhat honest about feelin bad about his abuse on some level. He is a full on Lifetime Movie Villain mode now. That being said, I think AK is killing it (PLEASE let him take a role where he's likable soon so I wont have to feel weird about finding him hot) and I do find it to be one of the more interesting portrayals of abuse on TV, even if its uncomfortable to watch. Its just so creepy to see how fast things can go from Celeste and Perry being cute or having a normal conversation to him smacking or chocking her. This discussion on abuse has been really interesting to read, and I can totally see how Celeste could be a badass super smart lawyer and still end up in an abusive marriage. I have to assume she fell in love with his sweet, charming side, and then his violent possessive side came slowly out as the marriage went on. Now, she probably hates the idea that she, an educated, collected, wealthy woman, has become some kind of "cowering battered woman" you see on TV. Its probably embarrassing to her, or she continues to justify his abuse as just "passion" or something.

Speaking of, this episode fully convinced me that one of Perry and Celestes kids is the one bullying Rennettas daughter. She fingered Ziggy because she was scared of the kid, and Ziggy was the first kid she saw who she didn't know. They see how dad treats mom, and they thinks that's an acceptable way to treat girls. Maybe he has a crush on her, and he thinks that's how boys show girls they love them? And now that asshole teacher is trying to scapegoat Ziggy because he's a poor kid from a single parent family, and not one of the Kids of Privilege that have powerful parents who could make the teachers life harder. What a crappy excuse for an educator. Speaking of, do we know what Jane actually does for a living? I remember her and Maddy talking about her working part time somewhere, did they say where? She leaves in a decent, if not large, house in a nice area, so is she getting money from family to help, or does her part time job just pay super well? Because we never see her doing work, we just see her doing mom stuff, hanging with Celeste and Maddy, and running on the beach.

So Maddy is having an affair? Not cool Maddy. Even if Ed is kind of awkward, its no excuse to have an affair, all the while complaining about what an asshole your ex husband is. Its sad to see the guy try to get his wife's attention, and she clearly isn't into him the way he's into her. I still like Maddy, she's a good friend and Reese makes her really likable, but she's really cutting, is unnecessarily mean to Bonnie, and yeah, is cheating on her husband of at least quite a few years, who seems to be one of the few decent men in this whole town. Not that she isn't sometimes justified in being mean to Bonnie (mainly with the birth control), but she is ALWAYS hostile to Bonnie even when she's trying to be civil. I keep waiting for them to say that Nathan and Bonnie had an affair and that's what broke up their marriage, and that's what made her so bitter towards them. But, if that's the case, she's a pretty huge hypocrite.

Speaking of Ed, I don't think he was all that creepy this episode. Maybe I read it wrong, but it looked like he was more trying to get Bonnies attention then leering creepily. I do think he was checking out Bonnie and that other women at yoga, but that's hardly the same as molesting his step daughter or committing murder. I took it as more him being sexually frustrated because his wife wont sleep with him (because she's sleeping with another guy) and he doesn't get why. I just think the "I like women who sweat" was his attempt to make small talk, and failing. He seems like a tech guy who can be social when needs be, but as soon as a situation gets confusing or awkward, HE gets confusing and awkward. But, who knows with this show. I also tried to give Perry the benefit of the doubt, and look how that turned out? It would just be nice if one person with genitals on this show didn't turn out to be a skeeze or an abuser.

[Cardie]

28 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of, do we know what Jane actually does for a living?

I believe she is a bookkeeper.

[Mabinogia]

25 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It would just be nice if one person with genitals on this show didn't turn out to be a skeeze or an abuser.

That is why I am holding out so much for Ed to just be socially awkward. Besides, we already have the creepy leering guy in Renata's husband. The look he gave Bonnie when she was dancing was soooo gross. I do think poor Ed is very sexually frustrated.

I am also leaning towards Abby's issue with staying at her mom's house is that she knows about the affair and likes Ed, who has been a father figure to her, and can't deal with the stress of having to lie to him via omission or rat out her own mother. I hadn't thought of that till reading it here but it makes a lot of sense. It's not easy keeping someone else's secret from someone you care about.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, susannot said:

Serves Perry right.  Who is the designer?  Sharply dressed female lawyers impress and intimidate clients, opposing counsel, opposing clients, and judges.  Not so much juries, though.

I realize some of you will disagree with me.  Love it that there are quite a few female lawyers on this thread.  The one thing we all agree upon is that we loved Celeste's legal performance.

What's nice is that most of us can even disagree civilly and respect that opinions vary, without pearl clutching.   

I didn't even like her suit.  I think Kidman's coloring is screaming for colorful clothes and they keep putting her in these bland neutrals.  And the giant bow overwhelmed her tiny torso and looked a little clownish to me.  And I thought Perry was eyeing some tag on one of his own suits there in the closet.  Heh.  "Damn Celeste overpaid for dry cleaning again!"  So I'm glad it was clarified.  

Yes, Jane's a freelance bookkeeper.  

It's not just the guys that are mostly presented as basket cases.  But I think that's the point.  Some adults are cut throat about petty shit.  And some are just nuts.  Listen to the Greek chorus.  Ziggy's eyes are wide set and that's a sign of a sociopath?  Idiots.

[humbleopinion]

I don't think Madeline knows that Abby knows about her past affair.

Abby probably connected the dots...she knows her mother all too well and maybe heard her furtive phone calls or saw texts to Joseph.

Abby doesn't want Chloe to have her family implode like it did when Maddie and Nathan divorced when she was a young child.

Nor does Abby want to experience it again with her Mom and Ed but with more awareness of an adult.

[tennisgurl]

20 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

It's not easy keeping someone else's secret from someone you care about.

This theory actually makes a whole lot of sense. It also reminds me a lot of the plot of the movie The Descendants, starring Jane herself, Shailene Woodley, in the role of the conflicted teenaged daughter. Just in case, put in spoilers

Spoiler

She plays the hard drinking seemingly bratty teenaged daughter of a rich couple who started acting out when she found out her mom was cheating on her dad. This leads to the daughter having HUGE issues with her mom and being furious at her, and angsting about telling her dad and possibly breaking up their family, but feeling guilty for not telling him.

It would also explain that weird look she gave Ed and Maddy that one night. It would also possibly tie in with the theory that one of Celestes sons was the one being a bully, after seeing his dad abuse his mom. It would have an interesting theme of kids seeing more than parents think they do, and how the parents behavior affects their kids.

Edited March 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

Have my black belt in shopping and am just going on what the rest of the ensemble would cost going on the price of the jacket.

Am positive there is someone out there in the world wide web who has identified the designer of the suit.

More interested in what wine Madeleine is guzzling.

I liked the suit hated the blouse. The blouse took me back to Dynasty and looked like something Alexis Carrington would wear. And I can maybe hand-wave this by telling myself that Celeste has been out of the workforce for a while and she had the blouse in her closet.

I was in love with Celeste's therapy outfit though. Is she like a double zero? Tiny thing. 

[humbleopinion]

The white filmy shirt/cover up Celeste had over her chemise that she dramatically whipped off before getting into bed is what caught my eye.

[dhilde85]

I agree that Ed is probably just awkward as well, though Zoe Kravitz has a banging bod- I wish mine looked like that! 

I don't know- this episode seemed out of sync from the others. There was too much music- are we watching a show or a music video? Also, Celeste's shirt reminded me of the 'Puffy Shirt' from Seinfeld. 

[susannot]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

LOL

It's not your opinion on Celeste's clothing that I disagree with, but   the fact that you think that she is immune from Perry's abuse because she is a lawyer.

When Bonnie stepped away, another instructor took her place.  That would be fine with me. I would assume that she needed to use the restroom or had an emergency call. 

W/o going waay back and reading my original post, mochamajesty, I believe I just said that I didn't know anyone like Celeste and thought her character was unrealistic.

Tennisgurl excellent post!  Happy to see you here. I well remember you from the epic True Detective thread back on TWOP.  HBO keeps giving us meaty dramas to obsess about.  I love it so much.

[Irlandesa]

19 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I liked the suit hated the blouse.

 

19 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

I was in love with Celeste's therapy outfit though. Is she like a double zero? Tiny thing.

Do you mean the therapy outfit in this episode?  That therapy outfit and the outfit with the horrible blouse were the same outfit.  She was just wearing the jacket and scarf in the therapy session so the blouse was covered.  And because of that, am I right in suspecting that she didn't have another meeting but rather lied about having a meeting so she could meet her therapist in secret?

[tennisgurl]

13 minutes ago, susannot said:

Happy to see you here. I well remember you from the epic True Detective thread back on TWOP.  HBO keeps giving us meaty dramas to obsess about.  I love it so much.

Awww thanks! Its nice to see you too! *waves* Oh the TWOP True Detective thread. Those were good times. One of my favorite TV experiences ever. Great show, great conversations, encouraging people to do extra reading, it was awesome. I LOVE having a good, meaty HBO show to talk and debate about endlessly! Now, if only we could find out that the play they are going to put on after Avenue Q is The King in Yellow...

Edited March 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[susannot]

Right!  I LOVE the fact that everyone went out and read Lovecraft and Stephen King's The Lawnmower Man.  Good Times. Sorry to be O/T, but fun.

[humbleopinion]

To the therapy session she went solo , Celeste wore an off white dress with a skinny gold belt that she was fiddling with when Perry grabbed her in front of one of the twins.

She wore the matching off white jacket with a greenish/bluish scarf just peeking out slightly in the scene where she is sitting on the therapist's couch.

Yes, she used the excuse of a second meeting about Ave Q as a coverup to go see the therapist.

Thinking Perry has her phone's locator activated so she will probably get a beating for talking behind his back.

[mochamajesty]

13 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

 

Do you mean the therapy outfit in this episode?  That therapy outfit and the outfit with the horrible blouse were the same outfit.  She was just wearing the jacket and scarf in the therapy session so the blouse was covered.  And because of that, am I right in suspecting that she didn't have another meeting but rather lied about having a meeting so she could meet her therapist in secret?

 

She wore a dress to therapy with a jacket and scarf.  This was the outfit she wore when Perry choked her.

She wore the suit with the blouse during the meeting with the mayor.

[Guest]

And all three outfits were colorless, weren't they?  I wonder if that's a statement about the character.  "Don't look at me, I don't matter," or something.  

Or maybe she's just supposed to be too rich and sophisticated to wear color.  I don't know, I'm watching The Good Fight and Diane kills it with color.  

The only outfit of Maddy's I recall offhand is a gorgeous colorful scarf she had on at the school for the meeting about trivia night, I think?  Very peacock-like.  Now that I google, I see Maddy wears a lot of bright florals and deep jewel tones.  

[susannot]

2 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And all three outfits were colorless, weren't they?  I wonder if that's a statement about the character.  "Don't look at me, I don't matter," or something.  

Or maybe she's just supposed to be too rich and sophisticated to wear color.  I don't know, I'm watching The Good Fight and Diane kills it with color.  

The only outfit of Maddy's I recall offhand is a gorgeous colorful scarf she had on at the school for the meeting about trivia night, I think?  Very peacock-like.  Now that I google, I see Maddy wears a lot of bright florals and deep jewel tones.  

Nicole has also been criticized IRL for wearing colorless clothing the same color as her pale skin.  IMO, her clothing in the show is beautiful.  She is not a woman for bold colors and flamboyant design.

[MerBearHou]

There is something about Nicole Kidman's mouth where she appears to be smiling almost all the time.  It throws me off in some of her moments that should be "serious".  Also as 1000% despicable and unforgivable as Perry's abuse is, I am feeling like Celeste is absolutely turned on during their sex (not just going along to keep Perry from worse behavior).  She went to law school -- she knows how to argue and not back down which I support, but she also very, very subtly pokes at the easily enraged bear that is Perry.

[Hera]

7 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, you just described the behavior of an asshole. The dinner clearly was Bonnie's idea, because she's the one who cares about Abigail and having a good relationship with Abigail's mom, and he should care about those things, too. But he doesn't, and he basically admitted that, and then piled on by not only calling his new wife's ideas crazy, but also bitching about the wife he left, to her face. Maddie is definitely not friendly to him and it's not the most mature way to handle it, but it's fairly easy to see that her behavior comes from a place of deep hurt. If he was actually contrite about his past behavior he would accept that he deserves it.

Wow, I really do not like Nathan.

That makes two of us (plus a bunch of other people here). Madeline has alluded to how hard it was for her to look after Abby when Nathan left her. It's great that he has now grown up and can be a good, stable dad for Skye (assuming that he is—we aren't really shown him interacting with her), but that doesn't retroactively make life easier for Madeline. I understand her bitterness: he got to take time out from parenting to grow up (ostensibly), while Madeline had to do it while looking after a child on her own. And there doesn't appear to have been any sort of karmic justice: he has all the things she has (new spouse, younger kid, and apparently everyone's doing fine financially), plus the daughter that Madeline raised, who doesn't seem like a particularly difficult or rebellious kid, when all is said and done. He basically got to skip all the grinding, labor-intensive parenting with Abby—the kind that requires constantly supervising her, and doing her laundry, and fixing all of her meals because she is too young to do those things for herself—and got to go straight to the part where she is more independent and can be spoken to and reasoned with like an adult.

He wouldn't be out of line to tell Madeline not to take her anger at him out on Bonnie (or Skye, though it doesn't seem like Madeline does) and not to dress him down in front of either of his daughters, but I'm going to second this statement that if he were truly sorry, he'd accept Madeline's sniping as his [very small and very justified] penance for skipping out on her and Abby all those years ago and rise above it. He should also make a concerted effort to coordinate his parenting of Abby with hers, instead of making (or allowing Bonnie to make) unilateral decisions. This doesn't mean that Madeline should always get her way, but it does mean that he doesn't get to cancel the SAT tutor without discussing it with Madeline first (it's not clear to me that he knew about the trip to Planned Parenthood).

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, susannot said:

Nicole has also been criticized IRL for wearing colorless clothing the same color as her pale skin.  IMO, her clothing in the show is beautiful.  She is not a woman for bold colors and flamboyant design.

Do you think she got to pick the character's palate?  I guess you never know.  

I think a fair-skinned redhead like her looks beautiful in the Easter egg colors and brighter versions, too -- violet and blue and pink and green, like Marcia Cross on Desperate Housewives or Emma Stone in La La Land.  The colorless look just makes me think or boiled shrimp or baked halibut.  LOL

[FemmyV]

Gosh, so much to reply to!

9 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I like the show but I'm getting really tired of the overuse of pop songs. Half the time it feels like that's just to fill time, and I certainly don't need any more scenes of Jane jogging with her iPod, listening to some must-be-expensive song. And of COURSE Ziggy loves Jefferson Airplane!

Aye. Mostly I don't buy that these playlists are put together by 5-6 year olds. Chloe possibly could have some hipster knowledge passed down from her older sister. Ziggy? What he knows is what Mom knows and whoever his school teachers and Saturday morning cartoons are pimping.

 

23 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Nathan is a douche, but I am getting Stealth Bitch vibes from his other half. .......

22 hours ago, lmsweb said:

One thing I really noticed this episode is that Nathan is really not interested in having a relationship with Abby. He made that pretty clear when he was ranting at Maddie about all the "fucking hoops he has to jump through for his wife again" or however he phrased it. Bonnie is the one who is trying to create a relationship between Nathan and Abby, and I really can't fault her intentions in that.

8 hours ago, Kostgard said:

But I warmed to Bonnie considerably this episode. She was just totally over this Maddy/Nathan war and the stupid dinner. And yeah - she's the only person who seems to be trying to have a relationship with Abigail.

I'm leaning with Mochamajesty: the more I see of Bonnie's actions and interactions, the more I see her manipulating events and relationships. I don't think Bonnie is doing this through the goodness of her heart; if Bonnie is so smart and so wise and so cool, why tf is she trying to force Maddie into a normalized relationship? My guess is she's trying to improve her and Nathan's (and Skye's) social prospects. I'm leaning this way, mostly because Bonnie has, without picking up the telephone herself or otherwise directly appealing to Maddie, used Nathan to push it through.

 

23 hours ago, stanleyk said:

I'm sticking with my opinion that Ed is not creepy. He's awkward, sure. He's a dork and says dorky things. It's possible my view is too colored by Parks and Rec-version Adam Scott, but I don't see anything creepy about him.

Tech guy lechery. But still lechery. 

 

22 hours ago, CofCinci said:

I'm so disappointed in Maddie.  Ed was a little too much with the gawking but he seems like a "I can look but I won't touch" type. 

I'm surprised as all hell at the Maddie/affair reveal. I guess that's her real revenge-against Nathan fuck.. and I hope it doesn't blow up in her face. If Abby was aware, what are the chances she told Bonnie about it? It's also surprising as all hell to find out she never said a thing to Celeste, while all that was going on.

 

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Am I the only one who has found Nathan pretty sympathetic so far?  I see his point in most of these arguments.  I would get annoyed with stuff like spending $9000 on grounding a house against electromagnetic energy to address Maddy's irrational fear of brain cancer, too, or not being able to wear insect repellent while camping, or having to arrange a dinner with Maddy and Ed, who act consistently like jerks to Bonnie and Nathan.

I'd feel as much sympathy for Nathan as I would for any tool, but he's mounted enough passive-agressive attacks that I don't feel much need to defend him. And, not knowing how far /close that house was to the neighborhood transformers or powerlines, I'm on her side. It doesn't look irrational when you have a high-risk acquaintance getting 5 tumors scooped out of their brain.

 

23 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

So, he wants another baby so she can stay home another six years and not work at something she really loves;  her job.

22 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

He also isolated her.  In the last therapy session, she mentioned she gave up her job, friends and family to come with him to Monterray.  In this episode's session, she mentions he doesn't like her to have too many friends. So not only is slowly redefining her normal, he takes her away from people who love her who could see the changes and address those with her.  And remember, he didn't demand she give up her job because he wanted her to. He likely knew he couldn't just tell her to quit so when she didn't get pregnant immediately, he seized on that opportunity to suggest he quit her job to remove that stress from her life.  It wasn't "for him" but "for their family."

I'm trying to decide if that was brilliant writing, or heavy-handed. ie, if we hadn't yet confirmed for ourselves that Perry is an abusive psycho, the case is now open and shut.

 

10 hours ago, gesundheit said:

It is forever shocking to me that Nicole Kidman can do so much with no words, for someone who can barely move her face.

That made me laugh. It shouldn't have. The ladies should be free to age naturally. If they want.

I'm okay with S. Woodley's performance in this ... her character has PSTD and is probably in a clinical depression, as well.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Hera said:

he doesn't get to cancel the SAT tutor without discussing it with Madeline first

She said she "questioned his decision to cancel the SAT tutor" and they had an argument.  That sounds like a discussion.  Maybe they did discuss it first and he eventually backed Abigail in her decision (which is what I theorized about Planned Parenthood).  He has rights as a parent, too, and Abigail is old enough to have input in both of these things.  We know she doesn't want to be pushed to strive for top schools and the pressure is affecting her grades.  Why not back off?

8 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

And, not knowing how far /close that house was to the neighborhood transformers or powerlines, I'm on her side. It doesn't look irrational when you have a high-risk acquaintance getting 5 tumors scooped out of their brain.

From what I've read there is no known correlation between transformer proximity and health issues but obviously, mmv.  I think they could've written that Madeline made him pay $9000 for a feng shui master and people would side with her, though.  Reese is that good.  No wonder she asked that cop who pulled her over drunk, "Do you know who I am?"  She could probably act her way out of a ticket with a lot of people.  

[formerlyfreedom]

40 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Do you think she got to pick the character's palate?  I guess you never know.  

Kidman is an executive producer on the show, so I'm sure she had input if she wanted.

[lmsweb]

1 hour ago, Hera said:

That makes two of us (plus a bunch of other people here). Madeline has alluded to how hard it was for her to look after Abby when Nathan left her. It's great that he has now grown up and can be a good, stable dad for Skye (assuming that he is—we aren't really shown him interacting with her), but that doesn't retroactively make life easier for Madeline. I understand her bitterness: he got to take time out from parenting to grow up (ostensibly), while Madeline had to do it while looking after a child on her own. And there doesn't appear to have been any sort of karmic justice: he has all the things she has (new spouse, younger kid, and apparently everyone's doing fine financially), plus the daughter that Madeline raised, who doesn't seem like a particularly difficult or rebellious kid, when all is said and done. He basically got to skip all the grinding, labor-intensive parenting with Abby—the kind that requires constantly supervising her, and doing her laundry, and fixing all of her meals because she is too young to do those things for herself—and got to go straight to the part where she is more independent and can be spoken to and reasoned with like an adult.

He wouldn't be out of line to tell Madeline not to take her anger at him out on Bonnie (or Skye, though it doesn't seem like Madeline does) and not to dress him down in front of either of his daughters, but I'm going to second this statement that if he were truly sorry, he'd accept Madeline's sniping as his [very small and very justified] penance for skipping out on her and Abby all those years ago and rise above it. He should also make a concerted effort to coordinate his parenting of Abby with hers, instead of making (or allowing Bonnie to make) unilateral decisions. This doesn't mean that Madeline should always get her way, but it does mean that he doesn't get to cancel the SAT tutor without discussing it with Madeline first (it's not clear to me that he knew about the trip to Planned Parenthood).

10000x this. I have so much empathy for Maddy with respect to this. This is such a mirror of myself, my ex and our daughter. Having said that, we co-parent a lot better than Maddy and Nathan do.....but it's still difficult. There have been many times I've bitten my lip until it almost bled.

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I suppose, but hey, this is a kid that already knows about one-night-stands!

It's really odd to me that so many little kids on this show know all the lyrics to songs that are even a generation or two past their parents' ages. Sure, some people are into things that aren't their demographic, but EVERYONE in Monterey AND their children? Okay, sure.

In fairness to Jane, I don't think he knows about one night stands as a sexual term.  He just knows  his parents met for one night.  He has no context. But since he is questioning her he is smart enough to know that doesn't quite make sense. But I love Jane for not lying to him.  Or making up pretty stories.  

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And all three outfits were colorless, weren't they?  I wonder if that's a statement about the character.  "Don't look at me, I don't matter," or something.

Spoiler

In the book Celeste wears very understated clothing as well. She's supposed to be blindingly gorgeous - a jogger runs into a tree while staring at her - so she dresses plainly and doesn't wear makeup to downplay her looks.

[Llywela]

9 hours ago, iggysaurus said:

Do we have any good reason to assume that whoever raped Jane is another one of the main male characters? Did that incident even take place in Monterey? I keep seeing people speculating about who it will turn out to be, but my initial assumption was that this was a totally separate incident that happened to Jane in the past before she moved to Monterey, and that its purpose in storyline is just to give Jane a back story and illustrate the difficulty she has with raising Ziggy alone and fitting into the new town. In real life it would be very unlikely that she would just happen to become friends with the wife of the man who raped her 6 years ago when she was living somewhere else.  I realize that unrealistic twists happen all the time in TV shows but it doesn't necessarily mean this show will handle it that way. Maybe Jane's rapist really is just some random guy, not an important member of the present-day cast. Seems kind of like it would be a cheap contrivance to have it be like "....and by sheer coincidence, it turns out that the mysterious man who raped Jane all those years ago is the same man who is currently the abusive husband of one of Jane's friends in her new town!" or whatever.  I could totally be wrong though.  I'm reading the book so maybe I'll find out soon.

For me, it's a Chekhov's gun situation. There has been so much focus placed on Jane's date rape and her trauma, Ziggy's desire to know his father, the search for the mysterious rapist, etc, that it has to be significant to the plot, and for it to be significant to the plot, we have to already know who the guy is. That could mean a secondary cast member rather than main, but my money is on main, because that provides the most impact and drama. It would be contrived, sure, but that's just how this kind of narrative works, nine times out of ten. And if, as seems likely at this point, Jane chose to move to Monterey specifically to look for the guy, that reduces the level of contrivance enormously, because it isn't a case of 'of all the towns in all the world she happened to chose the one where her rapist lived', but rather is a case of her deliberately placing herself in his community in hopes of identifying him.

7 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

Ed's beard is creepy.  I'm used to seeing him clean shaven in other movies.  (Only talking about Ed, not guys in general).

Agreed! Beards can look so much nicer than that - heck, check out some pictures of director Joseph when he was Aramis in The Musketeers to see an example of a really neat, well maintained beard that complements rather than swamping a man's face. Ed's is just horrible.

In the scene where Jane talked about moving back home and both Madeline and Celeste tried to talk her out of it, it occurred to me that I totally believe in Madeline's friendship with Jane, but not so much Celeste, who seems mainly to hang out with Jane because Madeline likes her, rather than having any kind of bond with her herself. So Celeste joining with Madeline in trying to talk Jane out of going felt more like lip service than genuine friendship. Then again, that ties in with Celeste's personality in general - she walks on egg shells in all things, and we only rarely glimpse beneath that mask.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Llywela

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, Lemons said:

I don't think it's unrealistic.  She happens to be a lawyer by trade, the character could have had any job.  Women do get conned by men, they start off as seeming attentive and affectionate and they end up being abusive.  Sometimes its hard to leave because of financial reasons.  This obviously isn't the case.  I think her image is what's stopping her from leaving, and maybe the fear of being alone.

I think another thing that's stopping her is what keeps a lot of people from leaving bad relationships: she loves him and she truly believes that he loves her. People put up with a lot of things because they think they love the other person, no matter how terrible things get. This isn't the first therapist they've seen, so Celeste believes that this is a fixable problem.

But she's also deeply ashamed, and that is another thing that makes people stay. If she left him, she would have to tell people that they were separated/divorced and she would have to give them a reason why, so her options are to either admit that he was abusive or lie, both of which would make her feel guilty. On top of that, everyone thinks that Perry is a sweet loving husband so she knows there would be a lot of people doubting her if she told the truth.

I'm guessing her other big fear is a custody battle for the twins.

Edited March 14, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[vixenbynight]

Quote

 It's also surprising as all hell to find out she never said a thing to Celeste, while all that was going on.

It's not surprising at all that Maddie has kept her affair with Joseph from Celeste. She doesn't want to admit to anyone, especially to herself that she's betrayed the one man that has been there for her and their children. 

Quote

I think another thing that's stopping her is what keeps a lot of people from leaving bad relationships: she loves him and she truly believes that he loves her. People put up with a lot of things because they think they love the other person, no matter how terrible things get. This isn't the first therapist they've seen, so Celeste believes that this is a fixable problem.

But she's also deeply ashamed, and that is another thing that makes people stay. If she left him, she would have to tell people that they were separated/divorced and she would have to give them a reason why, so her options are to either admit that he was abusive or lie, both of which would make her feel guilty. On top of that, everyone thinks that Perry is a sweet loving husband so she knows there would be a lot of people doubting her if she told the truth.

I'm guessing her other big fear is a custody battle for the twins.

I agree with EB on why Celeste has remained in her abusive marriage with Perry. She does love him, she just doesn't understand that all the love she has for him will not stop him from abusing her. She has given up so much of herself and it still isn't enough to give him the peace of mind to not think that she'll leave him.

Then there's the kids to consider. Perry probably hasn't reacted violently towards them and that is another thing that keeps Celeste from leaving and revealing the ugly truth of their "perfect marriage".

[QuinnM]

Quote

It's not surprising at all that Maddie has kept her affair with Joseph from Celeste. She doesn't want to admit to anyone, especially to herself that she's betrayed the one man that has been there for her and their children. 

In thinking back on the episode this exchange between Celeste and Maddie really highlights the level of acting we're dealing with here.  It was so authentic you almost forgot you were watching a scripted dialogue.  Even the introduction of Perry was just 100% what goes on with friends and wine on the the deck.  I think part of the success of this series is the strong skills of the cast.  Poor Zoe and Shalene - it's hard to shine when you are constantly standing next to the sun.

[Juliegirlj]

Maddie can be insufferable at times, but, I cannot judge her for feeling a certain way about Bonnie and Nathan. I think she really loved Nathan, and he took off, and was an absentee father to Abby. Then he shows up in the same town, with a young, beautiful wife and daughter, in a role opposite that in which he played with his first family. Bonnie overstepped her bounds by taking Abby to PP, and I would be pissed off too. 

I think Bonnie may be moving the chess pieces around in their inlaw exlaw family, and her earthy peace child vibe might be a facade. 

I love Shailene Woodley and find her spot on as Jane. She is so different than Maddie and Celeste, but still was adopted into their little circle of friends ( albeit, emotionally damaged as they are). 

I wonder if Celeste is discovering that her attraction to Perry is strictly physical and is now tied up with some complicated passive aggressive emotional problems. Would love to see her find her legs and use them to walk right out the door. (IF Perry isn't THE one that ends up murdered)....