S02.E06: Paradigm Shift

[catray]

Quote

Earth and Mars search for answers in the aftermath of the asteroid collision.

[sking24450]

Yeah, not sure I can back Naomi here.  It would be one thing if she let them know what she was up to, but to pretend like you're following ship protocol and going with the majority and then go behind their back.  I guess one can make the parallel for when Holden did it on the Cantebury but that led them to a massive mess.

Amos is awesome and interesting in the way he tries to solve problems.  He knows Alex is upset and he's willing to pick a fight to just get it out there.  I wonder how he will react to Naomi's actions.  

I do think it's interesting that Holden and Amos at the end of the day are from Earth and seem to still have some connection to Earth while Alex is aligned to Mars and Naomi to the Belt.  They will protect each other and back each other but at the end of the day there is a divided loyalty going on.

Chrisjen calmly stating she would destroy Mao's family and then building to a crescendo about the hellfire she would rain down on them all while Errinwright sits there shitting his pants was amazing.

The Mars crew is not getting enough attention so I was confused about what happened there, like I understand that they were attacked by something but that is the weakest part of the story.

Fred Johnson is going about handling a person like Holden in the complete wrong way.  I don't trust him with the nukes and making Holden jumpy is just going cause a mess for him later.  It seems like Holden has been above board for the most part with all parties with the information he has at the time but poking into his ship and insinuating things is just going to be a mess.  I wonder if Fred will try to make a play for Naomi to bring her over to the Tycho side.  

I was shocked he was still in charge at Tycho, is that because the Mormon ship wasn't destroyed at the end of the day?  

Sad to see the Martian captain go.

Happy Chrisjen shot down that guy that was trying to hit on her, he should be an interesting character.

Th episode wasn't as exciting as last week but I still enjoyed it.

Edited March 2, 2017 by sking24450

[thuganomics85]

"She's a good person and I like her, but she's like a sister to me.  I mean, don't get me wrong: I'd do her if she'd let me."  Sigh.... oh, Amos!

A quieter episode compared to the past few, but I found it interesting how all of the politicking and "sides" seem to be, err, "expanding" outside of the normal war room stuff, and it is starting to come into play with the other characters.  Like how Alex is starting to show his loyalty to Mars more, and especially Naomi going against the rest of the Roci crew, and giving the device to Fred's right hand woman, since she wants the Belters to have it.  No matter how long it has been and how many other friends or more you make, I guess some loyalties will never die.

Damn, Chrisjen is starting to let loose now!  That speech was some crazy "I will scorch them from this planet!" shit going on there.  Sadavir didn't know how to respond to any of that.  This should be fun!

I can only imagine what Miller's reaction would be to that graffiti tribute that was on the hull.  Interesting bit with Naomi convincing Fred to use him and Julie to sell some kind of star-crossed romance, that helped save the galaxy.  She was probably right that in his mind, he was already dead after they found Julie's body.

Also down for the Alex/Amos pair!

Seeing how the Epstein Drive was created was a decent diversion.  Always cool seeing Sam Huntington.  It did end abruptly, so I have a feeling there is more to this.

Some new threat (aliens?!) just show up and totally wreck the Mars ship, and Bobbie's unit.  Bobbie's still alive at least, but it looked like some of her unit is dead, not to mention everyone on the entire ship.

[Danny Franks]

Loved the opening scenes on the Roci. A bit of quiet time, after everything that's happened. And I particularly loved Amos and Alex's reactions to learning they were together. The delay before they started laughing, Amos not taking his 'winnings' because he likes Alex.

And then Amos telling Holden that Naomi is "like a sister to me. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd do her if she let me." On top of being funny, that's a telling statement about Amos' views on sex and relationships. He could probably "do" Naomi and not have it change their relationship one bit, but he's absolutely fine with that not being the case.

I love that Miller has become almost a messianic figure, to the Belters. And I love even more that Diogo is his prophet. That kid is going to keep falling upwards (which is fitting, given that he's lived his whole life in artificial or zero gravity).

Holden, how dumb are you to need it spelling out that Fred Johnson had the nukes? Of course he had them. And just to prove that Holden can be a complete donut sometimes, he began by advocating telling everyone the whole truth about the protomolecule, because he thinks that sharing of information will prevent conflict. Then, when he realised there was no chance of that, he moved on to destroying all evidence, to prevent anyone from gaining an advantage.

He wants all the sides to play nice and get along, while everyone else is picking sides. Alex wants to protect Mars, Fred and Naomi want to strengthen the OPA, both materially and philosophically. Interestingly, the one person who is all in on Holden's team is Amos. I figure it's because Amos likes Holden's moral surety. Following someone righteous means you can just go along with their decisions. In Amos' mind.

I don't know how badly Naomi's betrayal will hurt the Roci crew. They agreed to destroy the sample, and she pretended to do it. At first, I thought she'd then handed it over to the OPA, but then realised that she and Drummer were just looking at schematics of the stolen nukes, not the sample torpedo. Doesn't mean she won't hand the coordinates to them at some point, though. I don't think that's something Holden could easily forgive.

The flashbacks to Solomon Epstein were interesting, and a nice way to frame that the protomolecule may be the next big step forwards, after his Epstein drive. Or at least, politicians and soldiers on Earth and Mars are hoping it will be.

And that leads into the Martian marines on Ganymede. Where shit is about to go down. I'm honestly not sure what happened with the ship in orbit, but the UN soldiers were clearly running from the vaguely human-shaped thing, which then killed them and the Martian marines, except for Bobbie. That was pretty creepy. And that drone seemed to be watching it all.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Danny Franks

[sjohnson]

. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by sjohnson

[Danny Franks]

14 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

His ploy with the nukes doubles down on the nonsense: It only makes sense to have them if he tells Earth and Mars, but he didn't. You can't win the auction if you keep your bid secret. Johnson's secrecy only works in a first strike scenario. I have a horrible feeling the authors really think this BS constitutes insight into the human condition. 

You mean, he didn't tell Earth and Mars yet. He and Drummer said that they needed to deactivate failsafes on the missiles before they could even think of deploying them, so it makes no sense to reveal that he has them until they're actually usable.

And even then, all he did was tell Holden some of the uses nuclear weapons can have, not necessarily the uses he had in mind. But Fred has made clear that he wants a place at the table for the OPA, and that is a clear analogue to human politics, where countries have pursued nuclear weapons because they want to be taken seriously as international players.

[z couch cat]

28 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Avasarala was not threatening Mao's family, but threatening Errinwright himself, to his face. I'm afraid I'm pretty confident that was what was on screen. 

I definitely got the same vibe. Since she couldn't tell him openly that she knew that he was communicating with Mao, she did it in a more subtle manner. Surprisingly I am enjoying this whole diplomatic storyline.

The rest of the episode was good, but Naomi really disappointed me and I'm sure her decision will come back to bite Roci's crew on the ass. And it's going to happen soon.

[sjohnson]

. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by sjohnson

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Seeing how the Epstein Drive was created was a decent diversion.  Always cool seeing Sam Huntington.  It did end abruptly, so I have a feeling there is more to this.

I know. While I was watching it I was thinking, don't kill him off, please don't kill him off. I want to see more of him. I'm hopeful he'll show up again.

Whatever it was stooping to look at Gunny was a real WTF moment. Are the aliens there in search of their long lost proto molecule? Are they sentient life created by it?

From the moment it was mentioned that not all of the missiles exploded, it was clear Fred had them, at least to me. I was surprised Alex didn't come to that conclusion. Who else had the codes? As for him keeping them quiet for now, I don't see anything particularly unrealistic about that. It seems like he wants to attempt a relatively civil discussion/negotiation with Earth and Mars, but also wants a major threat/bargaining chip if it doesn't go his way. They do give him and the Belt power they wouldn't have had - but why go (sorry) ballistic first. Use it as a last resort.

I'd put all of the nuclear nations in both the defensive/aggressive categories. They are two sides of the same coin and which is which depends on your perspective (even within your own nation).

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Avasarala was not threatening Mao's family, but threatening Errinwright himself, to his face. I'm afraid I'm pretty confident that was what was on screen. 

That scene was so awesome.  

The actor playing Amos look a lot like the actor who plays Frank in How To Get Away With Murder, and they're almost playing the same type of character. Now all Amos has to do is get down on his knees in front of Naomi. (if you watch HTGAWM, you know what I'm talking about.)

And yay to the second person from Being Human on this show, but neither of them lasted.  

Edited March 3, 2017 by Neurochick

[Tachi Rocinante]

Nice bridge episode with the Epstein Drive background.

As awesome as the destruction of the orbital mirrors looked, the ground set on Ganymede looked Godawful.  Instead of rocky ground it looked like cheap casino carpeting.  It almost took me out of the scene it was so bad.

[raven]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Except that's not what Johnson did, but the show wants us to think he's more sensible than Holden. Bah, humbug!

I don't agree that the show wants us to think Johnson is more sensible then Holden or even vice versa.  They were both in roughly the same position; Johnson with the missiles and Holden with the protomolecule.  Holden chose to destroy his weapon (even tho that's not what happened) and Johnson decided to keep his.   I think both decisions make sense in the context of the characters (Johnson; ex military, current wanna be politician, Holden; idealist, etc).    Though I understand why Johnson would grab them. I would think that if he tells the UN he is keeping "their" nukes, that would only reinforce the idea they already have that he's not to be trusted.  He's decided to go with a power/force/whatever rather than be viewed as trustworthy. 

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Seeing how the Epstein Drive was created was a decent diversion.  Always cool seeing Sam Huntington.

I liked that bit.  I was thinking he must still be alive because of the VO but maybe that was just a choice on the part of the show runners as a better way to narrate.  And yeah, if he never gets back is there a note to Epstein's mother??

[marinw]

Ganymede does not dissapoint. That sequence was amazing.

I am also noticeing something about the opening credits: above New York there is a planet that is too big and blue to be the Moon, unless the Moon was terraformed or something.

Poor Mars loseing a Moon. That will effect thier tides. If they ever get tides, they need an ocean first.

I am loveing the frenimies Alex and Amos.

Shohreh Aghdashloo can get away with just about anything, that scene where she was threating the Mao's could have so easily been over the top and hammy.

I am declaring The Expanse my favorite show. And I watch a lot of shows.

Edited March 3, 2017 by marinw

[rozen]

Hmmmm, so Epstein is stuck in a tin can that can go at unbelievable speeds, with enough fuel for *weeks* he said. And we just saw an example of a human consciousness influencing the protomolecule's function. Methinks his tin can rocketed out of our system and into something else, that used him as a template, maybe. 

I think Johnson's actions make total sense in the context of his life experience. He got his Butcher title because Earth politicians decided to snow him into murdering hundreds of innocent Belters. To make a statement. That's it. They posed no real threat. I think he's well aware that the only 'ally' Earth will ever trust is one they can bring to heel immediately, as evidenced by their treatment of said Belters, and their relentless attempts to hinder Mars from reaching it's full potential. Fred Johnson could put on a halo and Earth will never trust or forgive him for prioritizing Belters over them. Better to have insurance than trust, insurance is easier to get, in any case. 

I also think Holden is an idiot and Naomi is making a smart play. This obvious, childish, standoffish stance is immediately going to get Johnson sniffing. He's a soldier. He's a neutral axis between two hostile entities. Literally everyone would probably like a chance to nail Johnson to the wall. He's probably got an incredibly well-honed nose for bullshit, and Holden's not even bothering to try. Naomi getting in with his Belter assistant gives them at least some chance at accessing info on what Johnson is really up to. He's got some of the smartest engineers there are building a vessel capable of transporting, what, a thousand people, into an entirely new solar system. The OPA was going to disarm those nukes, all Naomi did was make sure the bonus points go to her and the Rossie crew. Holden is like that Earth General, who quit on principle, rather than play the game and minimize the damage. And, just like the Earth General, Holden has no leverage upon with to make such a stand. So yea, I'm on team Holden is Stupid Right Now.

Holden is also dumb because running to nuke their sample is exactly something Johnson is watching for. He'd just be tying it up with a bow for him. Also, his assumption that there's nothing to be found on Venus is kind of dumb considering how resilient they've already seen that stuff is. Annnnd, everyone and their gramma is about to jet over there, so I doubt they're going to find a bunch of smashed asteroid and Belter corpses.

I'm starting to get irritated how everyone fusses at Amos for overreacting, and raising an eyebrow at his odd statements, but are expressing no interest in getting to know him better as a person. Maybe Naomi knows all his backstory, but the rest of the Rossie crew doesn't. And Amos doesn't seem to be shy about his past, he brings it up in passing conversation without any apparent trauma, so why not pour out a drink and get to know the guy? He's trying, at least. Alex is the soft-hearted momma bear of the bunch, so I guess he'd take it more personally than the rest. 

Yea, those UN marines were clearly getting lit up by something and were running for their lives. Weird that there was absolutely no way for the two to communicate. You'd think there would be some sort of 'neutral' surface comm so they could interact if something exactly like this happened. All the rest of Gunny's team got taken out by perfect faceshots to the helmet, so that alien thing def picked her to survive on purpose. Creeeepy.

Edited March 3, 2017 by rozen

[btp]

7 hours ago, rozen said:

Epstein is stuck in a tin can that can go at unbelievable speeds, with enough fuel for *weeks* he said. And we just saw an example of a human consciousness influencing the protomolecule's function. Methinks his tin can rocketed out of our system and into something else, that used him as a template, maybe.

I've seen this theory mentioned a number of times by a number of people, but I don't think it actually holds up. The theory (of the late Dresden and others) of the protomolecule was that it was sent here, on Phoebe, eons ago. Phoebe was supposed to collide with Earth, at which point the protomolecule would have begun its "work" using the biomass living in Earth's primordial soup.  Instead, it ended up in orbit around a distant planet. But the point is, Phoebe has been there, presumably bearing the PM, for a really, really long time. Solomon Epstein's journey out into the great beyond was only a little over a century ago. The times don't line up.

I think Epstein died at the end of his segment. The fact that  his Voice Over continued a bit beyond his desk was a little odd, but this is by no means the first time that's been done.

7 hours ago, rozen said:

Weird that there was absolutely no way for the two to communicate. You'd think there would be some sort of 'neutral' surface comm so they could interact if something exactly like this happened.

Recall that their communications got jammed, though. I'm thinking the purpose of that jamming was not just to make the marines on the surface of Ganymede grip the sides of their helmets and writhe in pain. The main purpose might have been to prevent the various factions present (both on the ground and in the sky) from talking to each other, thus reinforcing their natural suspicions and getting them to fire upon each other as much as possible. It's the same basic strategy that's been employed since the destruction of the "Cant," and it looks like this time, it may well have actually worked.

Edited March 3, 2017 by btp

[marinw]

9 hours ago, rozen said:

I'm starting to get irritated how everyone fusses at Amos for overreacting, and raising an eyebrow at his odd statements, but are expressing no interest in getting to know him better as a person. Maybe Naomi knows all his backstory, but the rest of the Rossie crew doesn't. And Amos doesn't seem to be shy about his past, he brings it up in passing conversation without any apparent trauma, so why not pour out a drink and get to know the guy? He's trying, at least. Alex is the soft-hearted momma bear of the bunch, so I guess he'd take it more personally than the rest. 

Good observation. As others on this forum  have noted, Amos seemed to have some self-awereness, and is willing to serve the greater good. I do love Alex however, but I find most Martian characters fascinating.

[shrewd.buddha]

Most of the episode felt like a wrap up to events that happened in the previous episode. It seems as if everyone is basically considering the Eros-Julie-Venus situation to be over - - or not very urgent. Holden and his crew were acting as if their sample of the proto-molecule was all that was left. 

What happened on Ganymede seemed very similar to the beginning of season one: someone has been playing with the P.M., things got out of hand, and a ship gets blown up to cover things up, and there happens to be a survivor. 
The mad scientist (who got shot in the head) had already mentioned the possibility of the P.M. being used to create beings capable of surviving the Martian atmosphere without spacesuits, so I'm guessing that is what we saw standing over the Martian military survivor.

Another repeated theme is Holden and crew deciding that keeping secrets is the best policy. But mostly those decisions have led to Mars and Earth escalating towards war because no one knew what happened to the Dresden, a moon and research station being blown up, and everyone dying on Eros.  But I guess you need that kind of bad decision making to keep the conflicts going. 

[johntfs]

Even though we didn't get much Chrisjen, what we got was awesome.   She was pretty much giving the guy a choice - sacrifice Mao or be destroyed.

[Haleth]

Shorah Aghdashloo is a goddess. (And spell check is having a breakdown.)

[marinw]

8 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Shorah Aghdashloo is a goddess. (And spell check is having a breakdown.)

And that black and gold sari was one of her best outfits yet.

Edited March 3, 2017 by marinw

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, sjohnson said:

I'm sorry, it does make sense to me to tell the UN as soon as possible. The abort signals were already sent but the missiles are literally netted. What really doesn't make any sense is how the UN could convince itself the wrong number of explosions doesn't prove some missiles have been diverted. Not telling them right away proves Johnson's sinister intent immediately. Claiming the OPA took the defective missiles into safekeeping was the only sensible ploy I can see. Except that's not what Johnson did, but the show wants us to think he's more sensible than Holden. Bah, humbug!

I don't agree that it makes sense to tell someone you've got something before you even know you can use it. Drummer said she could use some help with the "countermeasures".  Avasarala said that Johnson had gone quiet after Eros, he's not going to break that silence just to tell the UN something that will make them furious, and possibly make them react by attacking him. He's especially not going to do it before his new nukes are ready to be deployed.

Quote

Also, regretting to be controversial but the facts so far as I know them are: Nuclear weapons were invented by the US to be used in war, which happened exactly as planned. No other nation has ever succeeded in matching continued US development, which has continued without cease for decades to pursue the goal of a total victory in a first strike. Most nations have developed nuclear weapons either to be used aggressively (India, Pakistan, Israel) or defensively (USSR, China, North Korea,.) as in threatening a massively destructive retaliation to a first strike...which is why Star Wars was so destabilizing. [Discuss among yourselves which nations should be in which list.] The only nations that could be claimed to have developed nuclear weapons in order to be "taken seriously" as international players are the UK and France...who on a world scale are not taken seriously as "international players." South Africa started a similar program but not really having an enemy to bomb, stopped. Libya stopped its development program, apparently judging it to just be about being taken seriously. We can all see how that worked out for them. 

You're making the same mistake as Holden, and assuming that nuclear weapons have to be for one purpose, to the exclusion of others. Any nation that has developed nuclear weapons has done so for all the reasons you list. And no one originally developed them exclusively to be used aggressively except the USA.

This is the point Fred Johnson was making. There are a number of uses for nuclear missiles, and having them puts all those uses on the table for the OPA. He can use them to dissuade Earth or Mars from attacking the Belt, he can threaten to attack Earth or Mars if they don't do what the OPA wants, he can simply use them to say, 'you have to listen to me', or he can offer to give them back (or give them to Mars) in exchange for something else. But he won't do any of those things until he's got them working and deployable. Which Naomi gives Drummer a hand with in this episode.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Danny Franks

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Even though we didn't get much Chrisjen, what we got was awesome.

For a split second I thought she was going to rain hellfire on Errinwright.

Literally. 

[Haleth]

I want to hear her give the protomolecule a talking to.  Set it straight.  

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

For a split second I thought she was going to rain hellfire on Errinwright.

Literally. 

When you first see and hear her, she seems like this sweet, grandmatherly type but she can go from that to utterly terrifying in a heartbeat.  It was no accident that the first time we see Chrisjen she's using gravity to torture somebody.  She might be a "good guy" but Chrisjen is probably the scariest person on the show, Amos included.

[sjohnson]

On 3/3/2017 at 11:43 AM, Danny Franks said:

I

Edited March 9, 2017 by sjohnson

[Danny Franks]

51 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Since the UN has no idea when the reprogramming wasn't complete the moment the abort codes were broken, any value the missiles have other than a first strike weapon, such as deterrence or extortion or sale, is available. The insistence that availability for first strike is essential confesses their purpose is war.

So far as making Earth furious goes, telling them will be nothing to their rage at his obvious efforts to launch a sneak attack with secretly obtained weapons. Which is self-evidently his plan, though the script does not realize this, fixated as they are on their blood simple version of Realpolitik. And frankly, frightening Earth and Mars might cause them to hesitate in their rush to war, as they take time to recalculate the balance of forces. If Johnson were truly interested in his professed goal of protecting the Belters, stopping a war is his goal. The idea that war would be bad for them is the only sensible, decent thing the man has said. 

I can't think of anything in Fred Johnson's established personality, that makes me think he would ever do something as hasty as sounding off about his new missiles before he was sure that he could redeploy them without Earth being able to interfere. That's not even to say he wants to deploy them, but Fred Johnson has been playing the game for a long time, and he's a cautious, calculating man. What you're advocating would seem to be out of character.

For that matter, I don't see where it became evident he intends to launch a sneak attack. Holden accused him of it, and, as pointed out, Fred stated all the other uses that the missiles could have. The writing deliberately avoided having him commit to taking any action with them, so I don't really know where the idea that his plan to attack Earth is self-evident comes from.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Danny Franks

[sjohnson]

. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by sjohnson

[Nukester]

I personally enjoyed the pace of this episode.  Had a more real feel to it.  A few things.

• Was it me or did Amos have too much makeup on.  He looked funny.. Eyes?  Love the character.  Only one I really like.  Life to him is light and dark, it's one way or the other. 
• Holden isn't very intelligent, nor does he have any balls.
• The hairstyles from the 80's still crack me up.
• It was obvious to me that the marines were shooting things and backing up.  It should have been very obvious to the martians.  The new aliens, just plain creepy.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Nukester

[jhlipton]

On 3/1/2017 at 11:49 PM, sking24450 said:

Yeah, not sure I can back Naomi here.  It would be one thing if she let them know what she was up to, but to pretend like you're following ship protocol and going with the majority and then go behind their back.  I guess one can make the parallel for when Holden did it on the Cantebury but that led them to a massive mess.

"You're the Captain -- you have to make the decisions (except the ones I disagree with!)  Definitely going to bite that fine ass,

 

On 3/2/2017 at 6:26 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I can only imagine what Miller's reaction would be to that graffiti tribute that was on the hull. 

Bemused annoyance?

On 3/2/2017 at 3:47 PM, sjohnson said:

Avasarala was not threatening Mao's family, but threatening Errinwright himself, to his face. I'm afraid I'm pretty confident that was what was on screen. 

Yep -- and he knew it.

On 3/2/2017 at 7:37 PM, Neurochick said:

The actor playing Amos look a lot like the actor who plays Frank in How To Get Away With Murder, and they're almost playing the same type of character. Now all Amos has to do is get down on his knees in front of Naomi. (if you watch HTGAWM, you know what I'm talking about.)

I disagree with both parts of this. Amos is considerably bulkier and more muscular than Frank.  And there is no way I'd want him on his knees to Naomi.

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

Chrisjen is probably the scariest person on the show, Amos included.

Amos is a pussycat unless you attack him, or even more, his.  Alex is part of "his" now, so Amos wouldn't hit him (unlike Miller, who was never "his").

 

Definitely the best show on now (at least until Brooklyn 9-9 comes back).

[Danny Franks]

9 hours ago, sjohnson said:

^^^Because he's keeping it all a secret when the only reason to do so is to be able to launch a surprise first attack, given that he has reasons to publicize their loss. He disabled the abort codes in flight! The rest of the countermeasures are trivial given his access. And because his professed reasons are nonsense, as proven by the fact none of them could possibly apply to secret weapons.

If your point is that the show thinks all "logic" advanced is actually sensible, and Fred Johnson is a heroically objective realist and Holden is a starry-eyed idealist who may be the biggest menace of all, of course you're seeing exactly what the show wants. My objection is that this all strikes me as so silly it makes the drama seem rigged, therefore weak. 

Again, you're assuming that because he hasn't done something yet, he won't do it at all (except you think he's going to launch nukes in a sneak attack, which he also hasn't done). Once he reveals he has them, some of the options are off the table. So why do it, before he has to? That's just common sense.

I don't think the show presents anything as being as black or white as you're trying to paint it here. That's the whole point. And I think they've shown the advantages and drawbacks of different approaches, from different characters. Holden's openness and desire for transparency has worked at times, and been a mistake at others. Johnson and Avasarala's secrecy and politicking is the same. The writing isn't saying that one approach is right and another is wrong.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Danny Franks

[sjohnson]

.

Edited March 9, 2017 by sjohnson

[raven]

I don't agree with the sooner the better part of the argument about using the missiles as bargaining chips.  He disabled the abort codes in flight because they were provided to him by the UN.  He needs to change those codes (and make whatever other modifications he deems necessary) or the UN could regain access.   I can also see it as advantageous to spring the news on whatever future bargaining he thinks may happen with UN and Mars.  To me, it is better to wait and pull the missiles out when he feels he needs his strongest position.   By telling them before he wants to use them, the UN can prepare for a future bargaining position - why give them any time for that?  Fred is dealing from a position where his group feels used and that they haven't had an equal position.  He is also military and would want the optimum moment to spring a surprise attack.

Of course this could all backfire, since the UN is comparatively larger and stronger and could respond to this future bargaining with a stronger show of force, and/or decide that Fred is completely untrustworthy and not worth dealing with at all.   It hasn't been proven to me yet whether this a smart move on Fred's part or a naive one.

I also don't think Holden is being shown as a pussy (personally, I think destroying the protomolecule sample is the right move; if there's no one the Roci crew know who can keep it safe or safely use it and they aren't willing or able to do it) or that killing people is a moral good; I could make arguments that it wasn't necessary to kill the doctors - the Roci crew was willing to take Miller off Eros after he planted the bomb; he was in a suit but how would they know he wasn't infected until it was too late?  There's too much unknown about how the protomolecule works. Holden destroyed the doctors' ship because he didn't trust them; a fear based response, really, that he was conflicted about.  The show is trying to show us different POV and that there are few, if any, absolutes, even if the far future where the discoveries and the technological advancements humans have made should be helping us to grow, yet we still get bogged down in the same stuff.

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Except that the show is trying to paint Johnson as the smart one and Holden as the nice but stupid one. The show also knows that parts of the audience will read this as the badass (i.e., sexy) one, Johnson versus the pussy, Holden.

YMMV.  I see Holden as the Hero and Johnson as the Antagonist (not necessarily the Villain).  Hplden gets more screen time, and if being a "pussy" means sexy-times with Naomi, sign me up!

[Emily Thrace]

16 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Except that the show is trying to paint Johnson as the smart one and Holden as the nice but stupid one. The show also knows that parts of the audience will read this as the badass (i.e., sexy) one, Johnson versus the pussy, Holden.

I don't think Holden is stupid so much a naive (or maybe sheltered would be a better way to put it). He grew up in a very honest (cuz one thing any poly person will tell you is that it requires a lot of honesty) and isolated environment so he assumes people are telling him the truth until proven otherwise. He has no reason to believe Frank is lying so far so he is going to trust him. Its the other side of his idealism. He believes people are good and sees the best in them even when he probably shouldn't.

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

one thing any poly person will tell you is that it requires a lot of honesty

And a total absence of jealousy, which I think we also see.  Some men might be jealous of Amos' relationship with Naomi, but Holden realizes that he and Amos have completely different relationships and there's nothing to be jealous about.

[DEL901]

On 3/3/2017 at 7:59 PM, Nukester said:

I personally enjoyed the pace of this episode.  Had a more real feel to it.  A few things.

• The hairstyles from the 80's still crack me up.

In the books, Belters have a different physiology due to living all their lives in low gravity... they are taller and thinner with seemingly bigger heads.  Since this wouldn't be practical to portray in a tv series, I think they've just chosen a particular type of hair style to show who is a Belter.

[call me ishmael]

On 3/4/2017 at 5:36 AM, sjohnson said:

But I'm not assuming anything. I've merely noticed that if he really wanted to use the missiles as bargaining chips, he needs to tell them that he has them and the sooner the better. The reasons the sooner the better, again, are to get whatever protection his possession can offer, to urge Mars and the UN to re-calculate their positions on war, to begin any negotiations for any alleged benefit. The only reason alleged to wait is for total physical control of the missiles. But that's not needed for any of the alleged other benefits, so that can't really be true. Except that the show is trying to paint Johnson as the smart one and Holden as the nice but stupid one. The show also knows that parts of the audience will read this as the badass (i.e., sexy) one, Johnson versus the pussy, Holden.

The show's real position I think is exactly as black and white as that. Another incident, the Marasmus shoot down, had a bunch of doctors ignoring a plea about breaking quarantine. WTF? The only reason for making these "characters" so impervious to reason is the absolute certainty that killing people is a moral good and the show is going to prove it to its resident fool. 

I don't really see how the show is setting this up this way.  I finally caught up to the last two episodes and watching them back to back made me think that the show was showing Johnson to be trapped in not seeing any new possibilities brought about by the new situation whereas Holden saw the possibility of breaking the old disagreements (my suspicion on that is that they will both be right).  The show is really going out of its way to suggest that being trigger happy is a real problem (note the depiction of the generals who want to believe it is a martian trick or the unflattering depiction of Bobbi who really seems driven more by rage than by anything else).  When Johnson confronted Holder on the Roci my reaction was that Johnson was the one who was clearly trying to control other people for his own ends and that it wasn't a flattering look.  And the way that Naomi's refusal to destroy the protomolecule is being played as a betrayal is another indication that Holder is supposed to be the moral center of the show.

Oh and one other thing.  Declaring that he had the missiles for no particular reason would only convince both Earth and Mars that he was as dishonest as they claim and they still have a lot more fire power.  And frankly given that there are parts of the OPA that would want to use them I can see internal reasons for keeping them under wraps--although it is probably impossible for something like that not to get out.

Edited March 8, 2017 by call me ishmael
forgot something

[sjohnson]

On 3/8/2017 at 0:14 PM, call me ishmael said:

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by sjohnson

[Clanstarling]

44 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Disagree that Bobbi is meant to be seen in a negative light. I think she has been shown as driven by a thirst for justice and an ideal of a new Mars. Even more, she's badass as hell, therefore sexy, which makes her hotheadedness a charming flaw, not a major one, just one that needs a little toning down.

Mileage varies. I don't know what she's like in the books, but as portrayed on this show, I find her hotheadedness and bloodthirst the opposite of charming and sexy. I am open to changing my mind, as the show goes on, if she survives.

[call me ishmael]

14 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Mileage varies. I don't know what she's like in the books, but as portrayed on this show, I find her hotheadedness and bloodthirst the opposite of charming and sexy. I am open to changing my mind, as the show goes on, if she survives.

I may be being influenced by my reading of the books but she certainly was more appealing and interesting in print than on screen as far as I remember.

[call me ishmael]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

To me especially, the show favors Naomi as the smart one, not someone betraying her commander and lover for a political cause she has previously announced she wasn't a part of and saw as a snare and a deceit at core. They showed Holden as calling his mother! They might as well have branded his forehead with a scarlet L. 

Looking over the thread it certainly seems most people like Bobbi and definitely don't see her as a hater, think Johnson is much smarter than that fool Holden and thank God Naomi made the right call. I don't feel that way about these characters' decisions but it sure seems to me most people are picking up on what the show means. 

I just looked over this thread and don't see any consensus about Johnson being smarter than Holden to be honest.  There are a couple of people but it is pretty split.  There is some disagreement about keeping the nukes secret though.

But it is interesting about different reactions.  I saw the call to Holden's mother as showing that he--unlike Naomi and Amos--was rooted somewhere without--like Alex thereby becoming all territorial about where he was born.  And the teasing about the number of his parents was just to show--not that I find it as convincing on the show as in the books--that he and Naomi have a real connection.

Edited March 8, 2017 by call me ishmael
sorry for the double post. I have never figured out how to respond to two separate people in the same place

[Miles]

A lot of stuff happened this episode, a werewolf inventing an increadibly efficient and fast sublight engine, Chrisjen Avasarala going beserk in an epic speach, Naomi betraying everybody and basically rejoining the OPA, there is war between Earth and Mars breaking out, probably started by proto particle soildiers, or maybe aliens that send the particle and all I can think about is how disappointed I am that it was confirmed that Amos isn't gay. Since it wasn't really said one way or the other until now I kept out hope.

I don't mean to sound whiny or SJWish (since those types usually get on my last nerves), but by now, at least in my Scifi I'd like a gay character in the main cast. Doesn't have to be in our core group, since that is so small (though it would be nice), but somewhere among the regulars. I know it shouldn't really matter that much, but somehow it does matter, if at least one character you are following for such a long time in such an intense story, has something as profound as secuality in common with you.

Maybe he's at least bi?

 

On 3.3.2017 at 1:37 AM, Neurochick said:

The actor playing Amos look a lot like the actor who plays Frank in How To Get Away With Murder

Sorry, but you might be more white-person-face-blind than Fraser Agar. Those two look nothing alike. Except that they had a similar haircut for a while.

 

On 3.3.2017 at 3:01 AM, marinw said:

Poor Mars loseing a Moon. That will effect thier tides. If they ever get tides, they need an ocean first.

Not with these tiny moon(s). They'll get a tide of maybe a few centimeters. Earth has an unusually big moon. Usually only gas giants have moons that big. Mars's moons are really only rather small captured asteroid that aren't even round.

 

On 3.3.2017 at 7:29 PM, johntfs said:

When you first see and hear her, she seems like this sweet, grandmatherly type but she can go from that to utterly terrifying in a heartbeat.  It was no accident that the first time we see Chrisjen she's using gravity to torture somebody.  She might be a "good guy" but Chrisjen is probably the scariest person on the show, Amos included.

Actually, the first time we saw her, she was playing with her grandson. Then, imediatly after, we saw her gravity torturing somebody. I think it showed her two sides rather well, right there in the first episode.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Miles

[marinw]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

Not with these tiny moon(s). They'll get a tide of maybe a few centimeters. Earth has an unusually big moon. Usually only gas giants have moons that big. Mars's moons are really only rather small captured asteroid that aren't even round.

That's a good point. I have always wondered what Earth would be like with more moons.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Miles said:

Sorry, but you might be more white-person-face-blind than Fraser Agar. Those two look nothing alike. Except that they had a similar haircut for a while.

I wouldn't have put them together (mostly because I don't really know Charlie Webber), but I took a look at their photos and can see what @Neurochick does. They're not twins, mind you, but I can certainly see the resemblance. Their manner/attitudes are very different, of course.  You may not see it, which is fine. As with everything, mileage varies.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Miles]

I still don't see it. Only thing similar is hair length. Everything else is different. Hairline, hair color (beard, eyebrows and head), eyebrow shape, ears, chin, nose, mouth, neck width, head shape, all different. Eye color is relatively close but also not quite right.

Really the only thing they have in common is that they are attractive white guys. But that's about is. That is a great trait to have in common though (the attractive part). ;)

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

I still don't see it. Only thing similar is hair length. Everything else is different. Hairline, hair color (beard, eyebrows and head), eyebrow shape, ears, chin, nose, mouth, neck width, head shape, all different. Eye color is relatively close but also not quite right.

Really the only thing they have in common is that they are attractive white guys. But that's about is. That is a great trait to have in common though (the attractive part). ;)

It is a great trait. :) For me it's an overall thing, not the bits and pieces. They're definitely not twins, but similar enough to my eyes. And these eyes have appreciated a lot of men. ;)

[Ceindreadh]

On 3/4/2017 at 4:45 AM, jhlipton said:

I disagree with both parts of this. Amos is considerably bulkier and more muscular than Frank.  And there is no way I'd want him on his knees to Naomi.

 

Unless she was going to 'let him',  ;-)