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S02.E05: Home

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Maybe something is wrong with me but I thought that last scene between Miller and Julie (or should that be "Julie?") was very beautiful, the dialog, the music, everything.  I want to see it again.

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36 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe something is wrong with me but I thought that last scene between Miller and Julie (or should that be "Julie?") was very beautiful, the dialog, the music, everything.  I want to see it again.

No I had almost exactly the same reaction.

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I'm sad to see Miller go(?), but if that was the last we've seen of him it was a beautiful send off.  I think that was probably my favorite episode of the series so far, despite it seemingly ending with my favorite character's death.

The special effects were great too. Loved that shot of Eros passing through Venus' atmosphere. 

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Damn, they actually went there.  Granted, there is so much weird stuff going on with this alien and how it absorbs people's feeling or consciousness (?), that maybe some odd version of Miller will make a return, but I have to think the Miller we know is actually gone now.  Sad, but kind of fitting end for him.  He clearly seem to be coasting for life for a while and Julie seem to be only real driving force going forward, and I don't think there was really anything else left for him after that.  At least he finally got to be with her (kind of.)  The final scene was really well done and beautiful.  Both Thomas Jane and Florence Faivre were excellent as well.

I did like that the Roci crew stuck with it as long as possible, and even Holden was willing to put his own life on the line, until Miller basically had to talk him down.  It was very brief, but I enjoyed their interactions.

The stuff in the war room wasn't as interesting, but it was still cool seeing how this crisis was effecting them and all of the hoops they had to jump through, like the best way to let Mars know what they were doing since they didn't want to cause more conflicts later on, and if they could trust Fred and the OPA or not.  Ah, politics! 

Did like them having Chrisjen check back in with her husband for the first time this season.

The CGI was spectacular again.  They have gone all out in that department.

Really curious to see where this show goes next.  I'm guessing we will dive more into the conflicts with Earth and Mars, and the Bobbie Draper character, but I'm prepared for anything.  I will miss Miller and Thomas Jane, but I love Naomi, Amos, Alex, and even Holden just as much, so I'm certainly going to enjoy whatever is next!

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Been waiting to see Eros hit Venus. Awesome. Amazing episode. So fast paced, but still filled with moments of depth and emotion.

I enjoyed the scenes of the UN council making the decision to launch nukes, second guessing everything, worrying about Mars, briefly forgetting about their own agendas. And that missile launch was prettier than it had any right to be. But I guess the odd situation here is, Mars could win this cold war without lifting a finger, but it will see most of humanity destroyed in the process.

Errinwright and Nguyen are complete arseholes, though. Clearly based on the sort of belligerent hawks who tried to pressure various US presidents into needless wars, over the years.

Of course, Eros being able to adapt to any threat really put an end to that conundrum. Like they said, the Protomolecule can seemingly do anything it wants. I do wish they'd kept more of the body horror elements of the book, instead of making it so blue and glowy. But the scenes with Julie as a... what... battery? Puppet? Aware of what had happened to her, in her Protomolecule-rebuilt body? That was fairly horrifying, even in its beauty.

Miller taking his pet bomb on a short fuse for a walk was seriously exhausting. Tense, terrifying, even before the Protomolecule started talking to him.  I did get a brief chill when we heard "it's gone, gone, gone. Can't take the Razorback." Eerie. 

I loved how Miller kept up the sardonic humour and wry detachment, all the way through. And when it comes to Julie, he's always been willing to put together the most optimistic scenario he can think of. I guess that if he could choose his death, it would have been to be in Julie Mao's arms. Still creepily fixated, but he did save Earth, so I'll give him a break, there.

This is the first time the show really highlighted the frustration of time delay messages. First, Avasarala and the UN communicating with Holden with 15 minute waits, then Avasarala trying to talk to Arjun, with the delay of just a few seconds. Humans still haven't really conquered the challenges of space.

I liked that the Roci crew were really reduced to either explaining what was happening or coming up with fixes for problems, only to immediately face new ones. So much like the book, which just felt frantic at this stage. A race through the Solar System that only had one possible winner. The high-G burn was cool, and more evidence that humans just aren't ready to be out there, technologically and physically.

I really like Drummer. She's hot, and the actress plays her with a lot of personality and edge. I also enjoy something that was pointed out on The Churn podcast, that she plays Drummer as though English is her second language... which it is, because she's a Belter. Hope they keep finding things for her to do, even if they take stuff from other, minor book characters.

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I thought it poignant that the last words in this episode were Julie's to Miller, "You belong with me."

That made me tear up more than anything on "This Is Us."

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18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe something is wrong with me but I thought that last scene between Miller and Julie (or should that be "Julie?") was very beautiful, the dialog, the music, everything.  I want to see it again.

I thought so too.

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Of course, Eros being able to adapt to any threat really put an end to that conundrum. Like they said, the Protomolecule can seemingly do anything it wants. I do wish they'd kept more of the body horror elements of the book, instead of making it so blue and glowy. But the scenes with Julie as a... what... battery? Puppet? Aware of what had happened to her, in her Protomolecule-rebuilt body? That was fairly horrifying, even in its beauty.

Miller taking his pet bomb on a short fuse for a walk was seriously exhausting. Tense, terrifying, even before the Protomolecule started talking to him.  I did get a brief chill when we heard "it's gone, gone, gone. Can't take the Razorback." Eerie. 

I loved how Miller kept up the sardonic humour and wry detachment, all the way through. And when it comes to Julie, he's always been willing to put together the most optimistic scenario he can think of. I guess that if he could choose his death, it would have been to be in Julie Mao's arms. Still creepily fixated, but he did save Earth, so I'll give him a break, there.

This is the first time the show really highlighted the frustration of time delay messages. First, Avasarala and the UN communicating with Holden with 15 minute waits, then Avasarala trying to talk to Arjun, with the delay of just a few seconds. Humans still haven't really conquered the challenges of space.

I liked that the Roci crew were really reduced to either explaining what was happening or coming up with fixes for problems, only to immediately face new ones. So much like the book, which just felt frantic at this stage. A race through the Solar System that only had one possible winner. The high-G burn was cool, and more evidence that humans just aren't ready to be out there, technologically and physically.

I really like Drummer. She's hot, and the actress plays her with a lot of personality and edge. I also enjoy something that was pointed out on The Churn podcast, that she plays Drummer as though English is her second language... which it is, because she's a Belter. Hope they keep finding things for her to do, even if they take stuff from other, minor book characters.

I just finished Leviathan Wakes last night (before I watched the episode) and was wondering if Miller and Julie would be handled differently, since Jane's one of the better known actors in the show. I'm glad they didn't, it's rare that I think the visual adds to the book - but the beauty of the scene and Julie's voice when Miller's figuring it out was wonderful. 

4 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I thought it poignant that the last words in this episode were Julie's to Miller, "You belong with me."

That made me tear up more than anything on "This Is Us."

Ahh, man. You had to bring that up. LOL. Yes, I think I choked up more here (but I deliberately detached from This is Us because it was too near the bone for me). There's been quite the body count in the regular casts of shows I watch this week. And I don't watch shows where death is always imminent.

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This show is not trying to be heartwarming, that's why the scene between Julie and Miller was so poignant.  I didn't see it as sad.  I saw Miller finally able to exhale.  He kissed Julie and laid his head against her, and he realized he belonged with her, not necessarily Julie's body, but her consciousness , if that makes any sense.

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Stunning. The reveal that Julie was "Driving" Eros because she wanted to go home was so unexpected and bittersweet and beautiful.

Dear Bell Media Canada: Please stop running your little ads on the bottom of the screen on shows which are this pretty.

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9 minutes ago, marinw said:

Stunning. The reveal that Julie was "Driving" Eros because she wanted to go home was so unexpected and bittersweet and beautiful.

It really was bittersweet and beautiful.  When Miller said it was her, I was thinking oh she just wants to go home. Where is Jules? I would have loved to see his reaction to what Earth was facing even if he didn't know about Julie.

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Eh.  That whole love scene was overplayed and the orchestration not very good.  Regardless, the production is top notch!   Love this show.  

Edited by Nukester

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I must be a horrible person. The death scene was very affecting, but it would have hit me much, much harder if it had been about the unrequited love. Which would also have had the impact of being more believable, down in your gut, not just in your head. I even had the thought it might have played better if Miller had simply repeated his line from when he discovered the problem with the bomb. 

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21 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe something is wrong with me but I thought that last scene between Miller and Julie (or should that be "Julie?") was very beautiful, the dialog, the music, everything.  I want to see it again.

I agree.  Fantastic scenes and I absolutely loved that music.

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Hmm, thoughts (never read the books).

Pros: The protomolecule can be influenced by it's initial infected person, possibly if they are strong-willed enough. This "seed crystal" can be negotiated with, at some level.

Cons: Creepy evil scientist/politician are going to use this info to try to create living nuclear warheads.

More Cons: Julie said she couldn't completely stop Eros as she "couldn't stop the work" which means the protomolecule is still operating under some hard-coded routine with a personality draped over the top of the apparatus.

More More Cons: What if "the work" is completely unaffected by the fact she just atomized herself on the surface of Venus? What if she just gave it more material to work with?

I know this is going to turn into a standoff between Earth and Fred Johnson because they'll think he was playing them. But I feel like he and the Rossie could totally send whatever data files that kind of ship generates to show they burned at high G, and the health reports showing they almost killed themselves. To show they made a good faith effort to keep pace with Eros. But, I'm sure nothing logical like that will happen because drama.

Mormons are going to be in a tough spot. Yea, he stole your ship, but he did it to smash an asteroid that just tried to annihilate Earth. Pretty tough to stand there and be like "but our journey was like wai more important, you're fired!"

I wonder if Julie subsumed Miller before they crashed into Venus. I'm sure the protmolecule still exists, at some level, on Venus. I wonder if she can recreate him and herself and they can frolic in low atmosphere together for all days.

Edited by rozen
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I thought the scene with Julie and Miller was beautiful.  She was an organic part of the ship/asteroid but was still afraid of what was happening.  Both her desire to go home and Miller removing his protective gear (and resolving to stay with her) were quite poignant.  She had never met him but trusted him enough to take a leap of faith and crash into Venus.  May they frolic in peace.

The blue firefly effect of the missiles matched the blue fireflies of the protomolecule.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Human destruction matching the protomolecule.  And Avasarala's gorgeous outfit matched both. :)

My love for the Roci crew knows no bounds.  They'll tilt at that windmill until it kills them.

11 hours ago, Kuther2000 said:

Where is Jules? I would have loved to see his reaction to what Earth was facing even if he didn't know about Julie.

No doubt he was the first person to abandon Earth when it looked doomed.  See ya!

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10 hours ago, sjohnson said:

The death scene was very affecting, but it would have hit me much, much harder if it had been about the unrequited love. Which would also have had the impact of being more believable, down in your gut, not just in your head. I even had the thought it might have played better if Miller had simply repeated his line from when he discovered the problem with the bomb. 

I apprecaite it when a TV show explores different kinds of love as opposed to romantic or parental. Miller was in love with the idea of Julie, not Julie herself. So it seemed apprapriate and poetic that at the end Miller was talking not to the body of Julie, but to her spirit/soul/consciousness or whatever.

 

33 minutes ago, Haleth said:

The blue firefly effect of the missiles matched the blue fireflies of the protomolecule.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Human destruction matching the protomolecule.  And Avasarala's gorgeous outfit matched both. :)

Good observation! I love that everyone else on this show wears uniforms or nondescript civilian outfits and Avasarala dresses in such an ornate and colorful way. It says so much about her.

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On 2/23/2017 at 0:06 AM, Neurochick said:

Maybe something is wrong with me but I thought that last scene between Miller and Julie (or should that be "Julie?") was very beautiful, the dialog, the music, everything.  I want to see it again.

19 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I thought it poignant that the last words in this episode were Julie's to Miller, "You belong with me."

I rarely save shows once I've watched them, but made an excep"ride or die"tion here.  So damn beautiful.

I'm "ride or die" with the crew of the Roci to the very end.

 

13 hours ago, rozen said:

I wonder if she can recreate him and herself and they can frolic in low atmosphere together for all days.

They can, and do, in my universe!

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14 hours ago, rozen said:

Mormons are going to be in a tough spot. Yea, he stole your ship, but he did it to smash an asteroid that just tried to annihilate Earth. Pretty tough to stand there and be like "but our journey was like wai more important, you're fired!"

The ship wasn't damaged, was it?  They should be able to get it back.  Eventually...

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I was all set to buy the next book in the series, but now I'm going to hold off. I don't want to read ahead - which is unusual for me. I watched Game of Thrones having read all the books, and it didn't detract from my viewing pleasure. Certainly reading the chapters this episode was based on didn't detract at all, I enjoyed how they'd made it come to life. Particularly that last scene with Miller and Julie, which was moving in the book, and exquisitely moving on screen.

But for some reason, I really want to absorb the show and then read the books. Maybe because I came to this as a series first, without knowing it was based on anything.

Edited by Clanstarling
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One of the coolest things to me was how this situation was really the only way that Julie Mao and Joe Miller could be together because their respective headspaces were so detached from their normal settings.  Julie was traumatized by being awoken to the fact that she'd died and regrown as an alien artifact while Joe had been telling himself a story about Julie that caused him to fall in "love" with the idea of Julie.  At which point he finally met the protomolecule's idea of Julie.

If Julie Mao and Joe Miller had met during their normal lives, they'd have been as welcome to each other as as a case of anal warts.  I mean starry-eyed Earth richbitch slumming with OP8 playing revolutionary meets corrupt pigdog sucking the corporate teat to keep the Belters down.  Yeah, love at first sight.

Edited by johntfs
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22 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

But for some reason, I really want to absorb the show and then read the books. Maybe because I came to this as a series first, without knowing it was based on anything.

I've decided to read to the end of Leviathan Wakes, then hold off until SyFy gets ahead.

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I sort of get why Miller was so attached to Julie, but Julie didn't know him from your average Belter. The show kept trying to push some metaphysical connection between them, but I never actually saw it as real, just some figment of Miller's imagination.

I also thought it was amusing that they just sort of glossed over how many people died on Eros so Julie could be ethereal and blue and resplendent on her couch of ... whatever. Also, if you look closely at the end of the scene, as the camera is pulling away from the tableau, there is a second where the blue light effect (which must have been added post production - I know, duh!) is switched off.

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1 hour ago, WildPlum said:

I sort of get why Miller was so attached to Julie, but Julie didn't know him from your average Belter. The show kept trying to push some metaphysical connection between them, but I never actually saw it as real, just some figment of Miller's imagination.

I also thought it was amusing that they just sort of glossed over how many people died on Eros so Julie could be ethereal and blue and resplendent on her couch of ... whatever. Also, if you look closely at the end of the scene, as the camera is pulling away from the tableau, there is a second where the blue light effect (which must have been added post production - I know, duh!) is switched off.

I never saw them glossing that over.  Miller had to pass by three corpses (that we saw) to get to Julie.  The whole point of the situation was that these two doomed people were able to give each other a little comfort while preventing the deaths of billions more.  It was a very faint blue glow of a silver lining.  And the light winking out probably represented their deaths as the next scene shows Eros slamming into Venus.

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On 2/23/2017 at 11:40 PM, Neurochick said:

That made me tear up more than anything on "This Is Us."

Heretic!!! :-P

On 2/24/2017 at 5:08 AM, rozen said:

More More Cons: What if "the work" is completely unaffected by the fact she just atomized herself on the surface of Venus? What if she just gave it more material to work with?

[....]

I wonder if Julie subsumed Miller before they crashed into Venus. I'm sure the protmolecule still exists, at some level, on Venus. I wonder if she can recreate him and herself and they can frolic in low atmosphere together for all days.

Yeah, I don't think we've seen the end of the protomolecule either.  It's been a kind of deus ex machina, albeit a very well thought out and extremely well executed one.  It's the thing that got the whole story started, so, until we find out more about it (i.e what the "work" is, how powerful can it get, where its evolution ends, etc), I'm betting we will be hearing a lot more about this alien life form.

Also, the protomolecule has caused a lot of damage by only being in one asteroid, I'm kind of afraid of what it will do with a whole planet at its disposal.  Although if what Miller said is true and Julie infected the protomolecule as much as the protomolecule infected her, I suppose there's hope that another determined person like Miller can also cause some infection, and that he and Julie together can "tame the beast", for lack of a better term.

12 hours ago, WildPlum said:

I sort of get why Miller was so attached to Julie, but Julie didn't know him from your average Belter. The show kept trying to push some metaphysical connection between them, but I never actually saw it as real, just some figment of Miller's imagination.

Yes.  I think the kiss, while pretty and dramatic, wasn't completely earned.  Whatever part of Julie's consciousness survived and entwined itself with the protomolecule did n't know Miller, never met him.  I think the scene would have worked much better without the kiss.  I buy the rest of the interaction and that protoJulie started to make a connection with Miller through their conversation first and, after he took off his gear, through whatever information was being shared between them when the protomolecule started infecting Miller.  In fact, it would have been more poignant, to me, anyway, if he'd rested his head on her without the kiss.

Good episode, though.  Looking forward to next week.  Also, I hope people start sharing information soon.  It's starting to look like one of those sitcom situations where character A does everything wrong because character B didn't communicate properly and vice versa.  I prefer my political tension to come from real facts (in the show's universe, anyway), not because Mars thinks Earth wants to keep them down, and Earth thinks the OPA is playing games, and so on.

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1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

Yes.  I think the kiss, while pretty and dramatic, wasn't completely earned.  Whatever part of Julie's consciousness survived and entwined itself with the protomolecule did n't know Miller, never met him.  I think the scene would have worked much better without the kiss.  I buy the rest of the interaction and that protoJulie started to make a connection with Miller through their conversation first and, after he took off his gear, through whatever information was being shared between them when the protomolecule started infecting Miller.  In fact, it would have been more poignant, to me, anyway, if he'd rested his head on her without the kiss.

Well...if you assume she also has the information of every living being consumed on Eros, she actually has a pretty good idea of how Miller has been pursuing her across the solar system. The protomolecule did gobble up that creepy spy who was recording everything all the time, after all. Heck, the way the protomolecule is like a seek and destroy missile for anything electronic may mean she has access to data well beyond that.

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1 minute ago, rozen said:

Well...if you assume she also has the information of every living being consumed on Eros, she actually has a pretty good idea of how Miller has been pursuing her across the solar system. The protomolecule did gobble up that creepy spy who was recording everything all the time, after all. Heck, the way the protomolecule is like a seek and destroy missile for anything electronic may mean she has access to data well beyond that.

True, but she didn't seem to recognize him right away when she opened her eyes.

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3 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

True, but she didn't seem to recognize him right away when she opened her eyes.

Yea, but he basically punched her out of the coma will the smell of a delicious electronic nuclear weapon. And then she had to re-process all the horrible shit that's happened to her, then figure out exactly what she is now, and then figure out how to use her new position as the Eros engine. I think it's fair for that to take a minute or two.

Edited by rozen
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If Rocinante being near Eros freaked her out, it's odd that Miller stalking her across the solar system wouldn't. But maybe that's just me. 

But then I'm confused as to how she could think she's on the Razorback if she's got access to all the information?

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2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Yeah, I don't think we've seen the end of the protomolecule either.

I don't think this is a spoiler. Though I've read the first book, it does not address my theory, but I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case.

Spoiler

My theory about the proto-molecule from the time we first learned about what it does, is that it is what we would call a terraforming tool from our perspective. It's work was always intended to be larger than Eros, and now it is. The first book doesn't address this, so I don't think this is a spoiler.

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I don't think Julie recognized Miller, other than as a sympathetic human, someone willing to take the proto-ride with her, for lack of a better term.  I didn't really like the kiss, I doubt it was something human Julie would have done and so seemed wish fulfillment on the part of the writers for the Miller character.  We've been following him, know he feels burned out yet determined to see the Julie case through and the kiss wasn't needed to justify/cement his decision to stay.  Plus there was the fate of Earth hanging in the balance to further make his decision understandable.  It also downplays Julie's tragic ending, along with the ending of everyone else used in the science experiment of Eros.  We see glimpses of people but it's mostly eerie, beautiful blue; the effects were outstanding but really, Julie looked beautiful though what happened to her was awful.   This would have been a good ending for S1; for me, I was removed from seeing the mobs of people that used to inhabit Eros so the emptiness was just strange rather than horrifying - but maybe the show wasn't going for that.

Quote

But then I'm confused as to how she could think she's on the Razorback if she's got access to all the information?

I don't think she does - the protomolecule may, but Julie has only her own, knows something uncontrollable and terrifying is happening and wants to head home to Earth.

I did like the episode overall and the way the show is ramping things up - you know crashing into Venus can't be the end of the protomolecule (why introduce it at all?)  Loved the Roci crew going all in to keep up with Eros.

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I prefer my political tension to come from real facts (in the show's universe, anyway), not because Mars thinks Earth wants to keep them down, and Earth thinks the OPA is playing games, and so on.

I actually found this fairly realistic in the context of political history.  It is curious that for how long people have been in space that they're not thinking of alien life first - though since this is the first contact, I guess that explains that.  We could have had a bit better explanation of Earth/Mars tension and why they immediately distrust each other; it's pretty obvious why the Belters feel the way they do.

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3 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Yes.  I think the kiss, while pretty and dramatic, wasn't completely earned.  Whatever part of Julie's consciousness survived and entwined itself with the protomolecule did n't know Miller, never met him.

Neither one of them knew each other, but I have a feeling they were both connected in some way.  Wasn't there a scene in the first season where Miller thought he heard Julie talking, looked in that direction but there was no one there?  I watched the first season a few months ago, but I'm sure there was a suggestion that they were somehow connected.  Remember what she said to him after the kiss, "you belong with me."  I wonder if the "me" is Julie, the protomolecule or both.

Edited by Neurochick
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Well, that blueish thing (ooo, she is a Blue Meanie) isn't actually Julie, just a simulacrum of physical shape, a voice and random memories that the protomolecule offered Miller. Even protomolecules want to be worshipped, apparently.

Although Miller does say, somewhere in his journey with his pet nuclear warhead, something along the lines of "what if when the protomolecule infected Julie, she infected it back" - since Julie was the first person infected. Which is sort of untrue, what about all the people on Phoebe and all the people who were in the engine room of the Anubis? I suppose, if you think of them as individual infections, the Phoebe strain and the Anubis strain and the Julie strain were separate events.

But then the captive Exposition Scientist (why is this happening? Let us cut to nutty Exposition Guy to explain it) says the protomolecule learns as it grows, which would imply a linkage between strains.

Meh, overthinking.

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Wild Plum No, you're not. Either you can accept that's what happened and go on with the story, or your inability to suspend disbelief starts eating away at your understanding of the show. Miller is a different character depending on whether he really, truly does have a mystical love with the genuine (in universe that is,) apotheosis of Julie, or if he's just a man at the end so desperate for someone to love he imagines a remnant to be her. 

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1 hour ago, WildPlum said:

Well, that blueish thing (ooo, she is a Blue Meanie) isn't actually Julie, just a simulacrum of physical shape, a voice and random memories that the protomolecule offered Miller. Even protomolecules want to be worshipped, apparently.

Although Miller does say, somewhere in his journey with his pet nuclear warhead, something along the lines of "what if when the protomolecule infected Julie, she infected it back" - since Julie was the first person infected. Which is sort of untrue, what about all the people on Phoebe and all the people who were in the engine room of the Anubis? I suppose, if you think of them as individual infections, the Phoebe strain and the Anubis strain and the Julie strain were separate events.

But then the captive Exposition Scientist (why is this happening? Let us cut to nutty Exposition Guy to explain it) says the protomolecule learns as it grows, which would imply a linkage between strains.

Meh, overthinking.

I think Miller, Holden, Naomi, Fred and everyone else were just as guilty of overthinking. They were trying to ascribe logic and reason to an entity that they already knew could break every physical law we know of. 

My understanding of Julie being 'conscious' and 'driving' Eros is that the Protomolecule was fired at Earth millenia ago,  and now it was trying to complete its task. It used Julie's memories and personality as a way of directing itself to its target. But by allowing Julie's memories to steer, it also allowed her to change course and hit Venus instead. 

If it does something completely different in the future, then I wouldn't be surprised. Because they've already said that it can pretty much do what it wants. Maybe it's trying new things, learning as it goes. If so, then it might learn that letting human memories guide it is a mistake.

Edited by Danny Franks
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3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Miller is a different character depending on whether he really, truly does have a mystical love with the genuine (in universe that is,) apotheosis of Julie, or if he's just a man at the end so desperate for someone to love he imagines a remnant to be her. 

Maybe a bit of both?  "Book-Miller" is so desperate for love that he weeps (quietly and alone) for a minute when Holden accepts him as part of the crew.  But he also has this vision of Julie as a guide toward his better self -- a self he lost, and deemed lost forever,a long time ago.

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Julie did everything she was supposed to do for the OPA, reported in, took the best precautions she possibly could to quarantine herself (not truly possible, but she had no way of knowing that), and waited for the help she'd been promised.  Anderson Dawes ignored her; Fred Johnson sent the Roci, but the only one who made it to her (when she wasn't dead) was Miller.  And as she was dying in that shower, she'd seen an image of Miller and the bird... Which all connects to Miller seeing the bird on Ceres... Which I think the authors have left unexplained... Which is ok.  Anyway, Julie, who'd been abandoned to die alone, had a very positive response to Miller, because he was the one who showed up.  

....

Most of the political people in this show are reacting like they do today - my enemy is doing what I would do, my enemy is as untrustworthy as I am, my enemy is trying to one-up me the way I would one-up him (the dirty bastard) and that is nasty and must be smashed down....  Avasarola made the correct observation, everything a hammer sees is a nail.

....

Holden had a steep learning curve - naively pure (Miller executes Dressden) to reluctantly purifying (Marasmus can't be allowed to escape or broadcast, all for the greater good) to giving it everything you've got (that sacrificial chase of the ever-accelerating Eros) to trusting the guy on the ground (breaking off when Miller said to).  And he also knew how to use his reputation (Remember the Cant) on the Security Council.

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16 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Maybe a bit of both?  "Book-Miller" is so desperate for love that he weeps (quietly and alone) for a minute when Holden accepts him as part of the crew.  But he also has this vision of Julie as a guide toward his better self -- a self he lost, and deemed lost forever,a long time ago.

I agree with this.  I felt that to "Show-Miller" Julie was a person so unselfishly committed to something.  Miller was used to people being cynical, people out for themselves, who didn't believe in anything and here comes Julie who seems so committed and dedicated, Miller, on some level, wanted what Julie had, if that makes any sense.

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Julie was saved by Miller's love. Yes, technically the protomolecule "infection" preceded Miller's pursuit. But with love, all things are possible. That is the big emotional theme. Their love saves Julie and the world and redeems Miller. 

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It doesn't make much sense for Asteroid-Julie to commit suicide after all the tricks she pulled to escape being blown up or even followed. And why crash into Venus at all? It would have been a lot more suspenseful if Eros avoided Earth, but then 'disappeared', leaving everyone to wonder where it may have gone.
(Actually, aren't we the viewers they only people who know that Eros flew into Venus? Miller suggested it to proto-Julie, but no one else knew.)

I think I am going to become impatient waiting for all the different groups to put all the dots together with regards to Julie, her dad, and his nefarious organization. 

Edited by shrewd.buddha
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1 minute ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It doesn't make much sense for Asteroid-Julie to commit suicide after all the tricks she pulled to escape being blown up or even followed. And why crash into Venus at all? It would have been a lot more suspenseful if Eros avoided Earth, but then 'disappeared', leaving everyone to wonder where it may have gone.
(Actually, aren't we the viewers they only people who know that Eros flew into Venus? Miller suggested it to proto-Julie, but not one else knew.)

I think I am going to become impatient waiting for all the different groups to put all the dots together with regards to Julie, her dad, and his nefarious organization. 

I didn't see crashing Venus as committing suicide - she was still becoming and the protomolecule still had work to do, which she and it could do on Venus as easily as Earth. Miller offered it up as an alternative, if I recall correctly.

Seems like everyone was tracking what was going on, so they knew it crashed into Venus. I'm not sure Eros was in stealth mode at that point, but I could be wrong.

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There is a cut to the "situation room" on Earth and the video screen is showing a pic of Venus and a crawler underneath says something along the lines of Eros headed to Venus or Eros crashes in to Venus, so all of the characters (Earth, Mars, Fred Johnson, the Roci) know.

 

And I don't believe for a minute that was some form of suicide. The protomolecule - and presumably Proto-Julie and maybe Proto-Miller or perhaps Proto-Julie/Miller - survived (or we'd have no series).

Edited by WildPlum

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45 minutes ago, WildPlum said:

And I don't believe for a minute that was some form of suicide. The protomolecule - and presumably Proto-Julie and maybe Proto-Miller or perhaps Proto-Julie/Miller - survived (or we'd have no series).

They established that the protomolecule thrives on energy, from ship engines to lethal radiation. I agree that a crash landing on Venus is unlikely to have killed, or even hurt it. The question is, what will it do with all the heat energy generated by the Venusian atmosphere?

On 25/02/2017 at 10:50 PM, Neurochick said:

I agree with this.  I felt that to "Show-Miller" Julie was a person so unselfishly committed to something.  Miller was used to people being cynical, people out for themselves, who didn't believe in anything and here comes Julie who seems so committed and dedicated, Miller, on some level, wanted what Julie had, if that makes any sense.

Miller had a noir detective's somewhat blind fixation on the femme fatale. He built Julie up as something special, someone pure and honest and, as you say, unselfishly committed to what she believed, to the point where he was genuinely hurt when Anderson Dawes told him that Julie would "spit in [his] face" if she ever met him. The thing is, Dawes may well have been right. Julie was an activist, an OPA anarchist. She would not respect a man who people saw as betraying his fellow Belters by representing Earth's interests on Ceres.

The unique circumstances of them meeting, when Julie (or the construct made from her memories) is scared and alone and hurting, and fresh from the horror of being abandoned by her OPA allies to a slow, agonising death, meant that she was open to anyone who had come to her with kindness. But still, Miller is perhaps the only one who could reach her as he did, because he has her on such a pedestal. It's a beautiful moment, but there are layers to it that stop me from ever saying it was a loving moment.

The tragedy of Miller, really, is that he pushed away those who cared about him, like Octavia, and those who could come to care about him, like the Roci crew, because he just couldn't compromise or see things from any point of view but his own. On his own principles and views, or on what he wanted. He's pretty similar to Holden, in that way.

Edited by Danny Franks
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3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The tragedy of Miller, really, is that he pushed away those who cared about him, like Octavia, and those who could come to care about him, like the Roci crew, because he just couldn't compromise or see things from any point of view but his own. On his own principles and views, or on what he wanted. He's pretty similar to Holden, in that way.

I think that Miller and Holden could see each other's point of view -- they just thought it was WRONG!  Holden understood why Miller killed Dresden, and Miller understood why he wouldn't be allowed back on the Roci.

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This was minor, but I was distracted by the implausibility of Earth's interplanetary missiles being launched from silos on the planet's surface. I think they were going for the cute Cold War parallel (let's open up the "nuclear football" briefcase, turn the two activation keys, etc.), but it would have been more realistic for the missiles to be stationed in various solar orbits so they could quickly strike any target in the inhabited system -- especially given that the target could be anywhere from "lined up" orbitally with Earth to being on the other side of the sun from it.

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2 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I think that Miller and Holden could see each other's point of view -- they just thought it was WRONG!  Holden understood why Miller killed Dresden, and Miller understood why he wouldn't be allowed back on the Roci.

I'm not sure Holden did understand. My recollection is that he thought Miller killed Dresden out of revenge, which wasn't the case. It was to keep Dresden from convincing anyone else that the experiments were worthwhile (or something like that).

I do, however, agree that they both think the other is wrong when it comes to their world (system?) views.

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