S01.E09: The Villain That's Become

[MissLucas]

Something else has been bugging me. Jane is capable of creating a fully functional Android (complete with emotions, self-awareness and what have you not) yet she can't fake a relatively simple thing like visible signs of aging? Oh well, this show is a mess - a beautiful mess but still a mess. All the main characters are jerks with little or no chances of redemption up their sleeves. Team Toto too.

[theatremouse]

Why did Jack think he'd have spot on aim with a weapon he's never used before? That's what I want to know. He seemed shocked he hit the wrong target. No shit, oil can.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

Why did Jack think he'd have spot on aim with a weapon he's never used before? That's what I want to know. He seemed shocked he hit the wrong target. No shit, oil can.

Actually I don't think it was his fault. It seemed to me that The Wizard noticed Ev's direction (she kept looking at Jack) and The Wizard moved her into the path of the bullet.

[theatremouse]

Before that happened I was already thinking the Wizard and Ev were too close to each other for Jack to have a clear shot though. I agree the Wizard noticed her noticing Jack, but I still think it was foolish to assume even if they stood stock still that he'd necessarily hit who/where he intended to.

[Camera One]

Well now, Jack and Tip have so much in common.  Killing someone accidentally but not actually killing someone accidentally.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Camera One

[mammaM]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

Something has been bugging me: Why does Tip have a broad, working class accent when she apparently was raised in seclusion by Mombi, who didn't have such an accent? 

To your uneducated ears it might sound like a broad, working class accent, but to the people of Oz it's the accent of the ruling family!! Bwa ha ha ha!!!

[djinn]

55 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

Why did Jack think he'd have spot on aim with a weapon he's never used before? That's what I want to know. He seemed shocked he hit the wrong target.

So the way I interpreted the scene was that it was Langwidere who moved herself to be in the shot's path. The Wizard KNEW that if she was killed, he himself was toast. He would never have deliberately had her killed right there. She knew she was an android, she knew she couldn't be killed (Jane would later take care of that), but her seeming death would result in Frank getting executed. Which would've happened, if Dorothy hadn't turned up with the worst timing ever!

[Morrigan2575]

12 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Before that happened I was already thinking the Wizard and Ev were too close to each other for Jack to have a clear shot though. I agree the Wizard noticed her noticing Jack, but I still think it was foolish to assume even if they stood stock still that he'd necessarily hit who/where he intended to.

Oh absolutely I thought that was ridiculous too. When Jack asked Jane to make him the gun, I thought Suicide Mission, get close to The Wizard and his maybe his hand would now be a gun or something. I was really surprised he decided to take a shot from that distance, having never aimed/shot a gun before.

12 hours ago, djinn said:

So the way I interpreted the scene was that it was Langwidere who moved herself to be in the shot's path. The Wizard KNEW that if she was killed, he himself was toast. He would never have deliberately had her killed right there. She knew she was an android, she knew she couldn't be killed (Jane would later take care of that), but her seeming death would result in Frank getting executed. Which would've happened, if Dorothy hadn't turned up with the worst timing ever!

Huh, that's interesting I didn't even think about Langwidere moving herself into the path of the bullet.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[LittleIggy]

5 hours ago, attica said:

When it's a descriptor of a horse's markings, yes. When it's a name of a person, nope.  (Think of Roanoke, VA. The 'Roan' part is pronounced with 2 syllables.)

More like when the writers say that is how it's pronounced. Nobody pronounces float, oat, or loan with two syllables! As for Roanoke, some Virginians pronounce the Roan part as one syllable. 

[phoenics]

25 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

More like when the writers say that is how it's pronounced. Nobody pronounces float, oat, or loan with two syllables! As for Roanoke, some Virginians pronounce the Roan part as one syllable. 

Really?  I'm from that area and never heard it pronounced that way.  Learn something new everyday I guess.

[Fireball]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 8:38 PM, SimoneS said:

So Langwidere is an android. I wonder if she knows this.

7 hours ago, attica said:

If, as Jane says, she wears masks to obscure a never-aging face, I'd say she does. Which may be a reason she was calling the Wizard's bluff and suggesting to her army they should resist even under threat of 'death.'

Attica, I agree that Lady Ev knows that she's an android.  Simones was the one wondering; I'm not sure why the site shows me as the author of the quote in your post.

[Raja]

5 hours ago, attica said:

If they can't, they'd never be built. See: every robot movie/show ever.

I have long argued that providing sex service is the killer app, the primary reason to waste the time making a robot walk on two legs and look human instead of having extra functional arms. The decoy like the Queen might be the primary governmental use but a secondary commercial function.

[jaigurudeva]

5 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Something else has been bugging me. Jane is capable of creating a fully functional Android (complete with emotions, self-awareness and what have you not) yet she can't fake a relatively simple thing like visible signs of aging? 

Also, Jane is capable of creating a fully life-like android (including "anatomically correct" parts?) but she gave Jack tin buckets for arms and legs?

If the masks were all about disguising her lack of aging, why didn't anyone question when Frank brought her out bare-faced, "Wait, is she really our queen? Shouldn't she be, like, forty by now?"

[theatremouse]

I'm guessing the necessity of making the limbs connect to live flesh and function may have been the difference-maker between human-looking-and-moving android vs mechanical arm and leg. And/or since Lady Ev paid for Jack's "repair", given what she wanted from him once resurrected, she may have "ordered" a less fancy version for him, deeming it unnecessary. Or something. Like the difference in driving experience between a Chevy Aveo and an Aston Martin.

For the dudes who finally saw her face, I'm guessing since they'd never seen it before it's harder for them say "gee she hasn't aged at all". Rather they could've had more of a "wow she looks good for her age" kinda deal going on. Plus the random soldiers in the room don't necessarily know how old she's supposed to be, so as long as they had no frame of reference, it's potentially less conspicuous.

[jhlipton]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:07 PM, rollacoaster said:

Also: Skinless Warren!

You went there.  You really went there!!!

On 2/24/2017 at 10:38 PM, SimoneS said:

She even got the guy helping killed her by releasing the red painted guy. She is a walking disaster to all she encounters.

Can I hope that Ojo was just knocked unconscious and not dead (and that there's hope for Nahara as well)? 

8 hours ago, attica said:

If I were Dorothy, I'd certainly have the newly freed stone giant give me a lift to my destination. Even at the expense of looking badass by preceding it on foot.

Maybe she caught a lift until the last quarter mile then hopped off to look badass (she can look badass, but she'll never be badass!)

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

Well now, Jack and Tip have so much in common.  Killing someone accidentally but not actually killing someone accidentally.

Tip "killed" wanna-be sex-buddy Jack who "killed" wanna-be (and may actual) sex-buddy Ev.

 

So glad the next episode is the last.  I doubt I'd stick around for season 2.  Team Toto/Ojo/Naraha.

[dragonsbite]

I thought that Dorothy felt abandoned and betrayed. Both Sylvie and Lucas turned on her at Glinda's. They were the only reasons that would have compelled her to stay in Oz, after all. Then she wasn't able to kill Glinda -- if that was ever her plan. So now she has no friends and nothing to bring to the Wizard to get herself home. When Lucas says he wants to kill her but can't kill her, she's confused and hurt, which turns to fear/anger/hate/suffering/y'know the dark side. He wants her out of his head/heart. She wants to go home but wants him and Sylvie. Like a woman scorned, she does the spiteful thing. She leaves him like she found him...strung up as a scarecrow.

She'll repent. (I hope)

[Camera One]

Were we supposed to interpret Lucas trying to kill her as hoping that she would use the magical gauntlet to kill him and put him out of his misery?  Either way, that scene felt very long and drawn out.

[Morrigan2575]

7 hours ago, theatremouse said:

For the dudes who finally saw her face, I'm guessing since they'd never seen it before it's harder for them say "gee she hasn't aged at all". Rather they could've had more of a "wow she looks good for her age" kinda deal going on. Plus the random soldiers in the room don't necessarily know how old she's supposed to be, so as long as they had no frame of reference, it's potentially less conspicuous.

What's Also confusing is how they pulled it all off. Langwidere said she was very young when The Beast Forever flooded EV and killed the Royal Family, save (her and) The King. 

Was that a lie and Langwidere was an adult and thet's why her masks were needed because she never aged in 20 years?  Was she really a child and Jane built various android bodies over the years? Or did Jane just build this one body which they kept hidden from everyone for nearly 20 years, while Langwidere "grew up"?

Edited February 26, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[attica]

11 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Nobody pronounces float, oat, or loan with two syllables! 

True, but the Welsh actor Ioan Gruffudd pronounces his first name 'Yo-an'.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What's Also confusing is how they pulled it all off. Langwidere said she was very young when The Beast Forever flooded EV and killed the Royal Family, save (her and) The King. 

Was that a lie and Langwidere was an adult and thet's why her masks were needed because she never aged in 20 years?  Was she really a child and Jane built various android bodies over the years? Or did Jane just build this one body which they kept hidden from everyone for nearly 20 years, while Langwidere "grew up"?

I had the impression earlier episodes that Langwidere's masks didn't cover a disfigurement but something else, although I didn't know what until this episode. I think it was Langwidere's psychological need to cover a false face. An insecurity about being exposed for what she is. In fact she said that:  "I am exposed, by my own choice." At that point, she was prepared to die to prevent the Wizard from getting the guns. 

Edited February 26, 2017 by MarySNJ

[Chyromaniac]

3 hours ago, djinn said:

So the way I interpreted the scene was that it was Langwidere who moved herself to be in the shot's path. The Wizard KNEW that if she was killed, he himself was toast. He would never have deliberately had her killed right there. She knew she was an android, she knew she couldn't be killed (Jane would later take care of that), but her seeming death would result in Frank getting executed. Which would've happened, if Dorothy hadn't turned up with the worst timing ever!

Hmm...  it's certainly possible.  Although when she says, "let me go," she's clearly looking at and speaking to Jack.  That suggests to me that, whether she knew she was a robot or not, she didn't expect to survive.  I also feel it would lessen the impact of her act of self-sacrifice, if she knows she can just be repaired.  Otherwise, she's at least got realistic enough skin, hair, eyes, teeth... and Jane has to surgically remove her face to reveal the truth to Jack.  I would suspect that Langwidere knows that she's not quite human - but specifically that she's mechanical?  That's a tough call.  But yeah - I totally agree that she was expecting - possibly even hoping - that she would "die" to rally her soldiers against Wiz-Frank.

In any case, I can't say that I anticipated Langwidere being an android - although it's not entirely surprising.  There have been a lot of steampunk-y elements to the story, so I've been watching out for some kind of reference to Tik-tok.  I'm not saying that she's him - but it's cool to see that element of the Oz mythology represented on the show.

[tennisgurl]

This Dorothy plot has really gone off the rails, which is too bad, because I liked her and her road trip with Lucas and Toto, and later Sylvie. I enjoyed Dorothy and Lucas, and thought the actors had a nice chemistry, even if the relationship seemed a little forced at times. I think they probably made a mistake revealing the Lucas backstory and giving him his memories back so soon. When they gave him his memories, we basically lost him as a character, and took away the conflict for Dorothy. Before, she wanted to get back home, but then she had bonded with Lucas and Sylvie, and that could have been an interesting conflict. But now, all Dorothy has is going home, which isn't a super interesting storyline. She's also become increasingly selfish and lacking real motivation beyond just getting a ride home., She isn't invested in anything or anyone in Oz anymore, and just wants to do anything to get home, no matter the consequences for Oz when she leaves. Wanting to go home is a good motivator, but I don't like how her story has progressed right now. I'm also not sure how I feel about her putting Lucas back in the field. It felt really vindictive, which might be understandable, but its not really what you want to see from your main hero, at least not without some internal conflict But, on the other hand, he WAS begging to be stopped, and she did need to stop him from attacking her again, so....

Lady Ev is an android! What a twist! And, an even bigger twist, the Wizard is actually somewhat competent! The Trojan horse idea was actually a pretty solid plan, go figure. And I really didn't see the Lady Ev thing coming. I think Jack and Ev are my favorite plot right now. Poor Jack. Its just one thing after another for him. I also like Jane a lot, even if her medical ethics are...questionable. We just don't have enough female mad scientists out there!

How powerful is West anyway? Those other witches took her out pretty quickly. Oh well, still enjoying her and Tip, even though I still don't know if they're totally good guys either. They did leave Naraha in the slime pit after all. But I guess that's kind of the point, that all the characters are morally ambiguous, and have complicated personalities and ways of getting what they want. And most everyone seems to have somewhat sympathetic motivations (defeating the beast, saving magic) but often do awful things to get there.

Edited February 26, 2017 by tennisgurl

[theatremouse]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What's Also confusing is how they pulled it all off. Langwidere said she was very young when The Beast Forever flooded EV and killed the Royal Family, save (her and) The King.

"Very young" is ambiguous enough that she could've been 10-11. Say hypothetically it took Jane a year or more to build. So then they just have to have no one see the princess for that span. "She's recovering from her injuries" or something. Once she's supposedly 12, it's possible she's her final height. So then face covering deals with no aging, but she's not necessarily so short as to read "small child" forever.

[djinn]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

She's also become increasingly selfish and lacking real motivation beyond just getting a ride home., She isn't invested in anything or anyone in Oz anymore, and just wants to do anything to get home, no matter the consequences for Oz when she leaves.

Agreed. The consequences for Oz when the Wizard came 20 years ago and became all-powerful, were quite bad, in my opinion. Hopefully, if this second interloper (the first being the Wizard) leaves quickly, and manages to take the Wizard back with her, Oz will be left in the hands of Ozma, witches, its native peoples, to rebuild as they once were. Dorothy's single-minded obsession has become "to go home." However, she WAS born in Oz. I hope her learning curve is that when she gets her wish and is flung back to Kansas, she'll start to miss Oz and all the people she met there.

2 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

 I also feel it would lessen the impact of her act of self-sacrifice, if she knows she can just be repaired.

I agree. I think it's more likely that Langwidere moved into the path of the bullet knowing she would die, but that would also take down the Wizard.

[LittleIggy]

3 hours ago, attica said:

True, but the Welsh actor Ioan Gruffudd pronounces his first name 'Yo-an'.

But his name is Welsh not English.

[Camera One]

I think we are supposed to believe Dorothy's motivation right now is to stop the war between the Wizard and Glinda, so the little witches don't get killed?  Not just going home.  We don't know how the Stone Giants work or are controlled, much less how she thinks that will stop Glinda, or The Wizard, and we don't know what she plans to do about The Beast Forever, either.  Her plan makes no sense, so we'll see whether it becomes more logical in the next episode.

[rubinia]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:40 PM, Senna said:

 

ETA: As an aside, did the skinless man make anyone else think of Attack on Titan?  Just me then?

I thought Hellraiser.

Did they film the castle of Ev in Budapest? That funicular looked familiar.

[alaynestone]

9 hours ago, theatremouse said:

"Very young" is ambiguous enough that she could've been 10-11. Say hypothetically it took Jane a year or more to build. So then they just have to have no one see the princess for that span. "She's recovering from her injuries" or something. Once she's supposedly 12, it's possible she's her final height. So then face covering deals with no aging, but she's not necessarily so short as to read "small child" forever.

But what about her voice?  Even as a girl, your voice will change from the time you are 12 to 20-30s.  Obviously not as dramatic as a boy's voice change during puberty, but still there.

[theatremouse]

Rotate the staff around her frequently and don't have her make super public appearances til she's a teen? For me, it's not an issue of "a real person's voice will change between 12-30". Similar to the height, in my mind, it's an issue of "does her voice sound reasonable for whatever age she's supposed to be at the current moment" and there's a range which falls within believable for several decades. I know a number of women in their 30s who, if I didn't know them, on the phone I'd think I were talking to a teenager. And also a few teens who sound a bit older than their years. If you have people around her all the time, they would be less likely to notice a difference that were really there anyway, so I wouldn't worry about voice sameness with those folks. If you have people around her only once a year (or less frequently), they're not likely to recall well enough if she sounds exactly the same. When the voice would become a bigger problem is when she hits her 50s and up. But who's to say Jane doesn't tinker with her voice mechanisms occasionally? Seems easier to tweak gradually than a face.

[milizard]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

This Dorothy plot has really gone off the rails, which is too bad, because I liked her and her road trip with Lucas and Toto, and later Sylvie. I enjoyed Dorothy and Lucas, and thought the actors had a nice chemistry, even if the relationship seemed a little forced at times. I think they probably made a mistake revealing the Lucas backstory and giving him his memories back so soon. When they gave him his memories, we basically lost him as a character, and took away the conflict for Dorothy. Before, she wanted to get back home, but then she had bonded with Lucas and Sylvie, and that could have been an interesting conflict. But now, all Dorothy has is going home, which isn't a super interesting storyline. She's also become increasingly selfish and lacking real motivation beyond just getting a ride home., She isn't invested in anything or anyone in Oz anymore, and just wants to do anything to get home, no matter the consequences for Oz when she leaves. Wanting to go home is a good motivator, but I don't like how her story has progressed right now. I'm also not sure how I feel about her putting Lucas back in the field. It felt really vindictive, which might be understandable, but its not really what you want to see from your main hero, at least not without some internal conflict But, on the other hand, he WAS begging to be stopped, and she did need to stop him from attacking her again, so....

 

I agree with Dorothy storyline has gone off the rails.  I was rather enjoying the Dorothy/Lucas thing, even though it seemed to come from nowhere.  I was very put off by the whole scene.  The way she left him seemed incredibly cold, but after thinking about it, it was the only way to free him without killing him or allowing herself to be killed.  He suffered those same injuries before, so she knew he could survive them.  She would no longer be the one to save him probably Glinda would find him.  Glinda had the power to cure him and ease his pain immediately.  Plus, he was actually really bad for coming after her to murder her because she had the gall to have him fall in love with her and screw up his life.  That's pretty terrible, if you really think about it.

I'm really missing the information that would give us insight into her motivations.  The only way I can come up with anything, is to remember that she seemed pretty sharp.  Perhaps the plan to take the wizard with her informs us more than it seems.  She realizes neither of them belong there, and are F-in up the world of Oz, so that's her big motivation for getting home.  Maybe??

 

Anyway, the way this all went down took a lot of the enjoyment of watching this show away from me.  The saving grace was the lady Ev reveal.  Awesome.  I don't think the purpose of the masks were to hide her age so much as her difficulty in expressing emotions with her face--hence the masks for every feeling.  Why they would claim it's the other thing, I don't know.

[Morrigan2575]

9 hours ago, milizard said:

I agree with Dorothy storyline has gone off the rails.  I was rather enjoying the Dorothy/Lucas thing, even though it seemed to come from nowhere.  I was very put off by the whole scene.  The way she left him seemed incredibly cold, but after thinking about it, it was the only way to free him without killing him or allowing herself to be killed.  He suffered those same injuries before, so she knew he could survive them.  She would no longer be the one to save him probably Glinda would find him.  Glinda had the power to cure him and ease his pain immediately.  

Not only was he stabbed and, bleeding out but, if that didn't kill him, he would die a slow, painful death from dehydration, exhaustion and asphyxiation.

If she "cared" about him at all, she would have finished the job (mercy) or just fucking left him on the ground where she stabbed him. At least that way, he could have made an attempt to seek medical help or return to Glinda.  Instead she took the time to tie crucify him and, guarantee his death. 

Quote

Plus, he was actually really bad for coming after her to murder her because she had the gall to have him fall in love with her and screw up his life.  That's pretty terrible, if you really think about it.

I have to really object to this one, Dorothy tried to kill his wife! In her sleep! Does he not have the right to demand justice? Does Glinda not have the right to demand Dorothy's life after Dorothy attacked her, in her bedroom, while she was asleep?

Let's not forget that this whole chain of events was set in motion by Dorothy making a deal with The Wizard to kill Glinda in exchange for a trip home.  

I get that the show tried to wrap the whole thing up in a creepy love triangle but, the reality is, the minute Dorothy accepted the Wizard's offer, she became an assassin. The minute Dorothy barged into Glinda's bedroom and tried to strangle her, Dorothy became a murderer (or at least attempted murderer).

BTW I'm not excusing/defending or white washing Glinda, she has her own crimes/sins to pay for but, in this instance she's actually the victim and Dorothy the criminal.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[zxy556575]

Everyone continues to try to kill each other! Oz is seriously messed up.

I'm still invested in Dorothy and Roan and have bought into their relationship from the start. My favorite storyline is Jack/Langwidere/Jane. I'm also curious to see how Eamonn's lion tale will play out.

Dorothy (and Glinda) are definitely not the cheery/benevolent protagonists portrayed in the movie, but I'm enjoying this take on them. It was horrifying for Dorothy to re-crucify Roan, but I understood it from her perspective of fuck you betrayal and anger. Her motivation has been self-interest from the start, but her journey from a somewhat listless and naive nurse to brutal destroyer of worlds has been epic to watch.

[Mojeaux]

3 hours ago, Lord Donia said:

I'm also curious to see how Eamonn's lion tale will play out.

I see what you did there.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Donia said:

Dorothy (and Glinda) are definitely not the cheery/benevolent protagonists portrayed in the movie, but I'm enjoying this take on them. It was horrifying for Dorothy to re-crucify Roan, but I understood it from her perspective of fuck you betrayal and anger. Her motivation has been self-interest from the start, but her journey from a somewhat listless and naive nurse to brutal destroyer of worlds has been epic to watch.

Yes.

[MissLucas]

I find it pretty hard to justify what Dorothy did to Roan. It's one thing to incapacitate him so he could not follow her but hoisting him up on that cross is something entirely different. It takes quite some effort to bring down the original scarecrow, then drag a tall man like Roan to the cross and hoist him up, she's not exactly Brienne of Tarth. I have to assume that sheer hatred and malevolence fired up her adrenaline levels. And she left him there to die a horrible death in excruciating pain. If she wanted him dead she could have delivered a quick coup de grace. I don't think she left him there to teach him a lesson thinking that Glinda would find him before he died. If that had been her plan she should have let Glinda know by magic-glove-sms.

Of course if we are supposed to see Dorothy on a path to Kali then it makes sense but I'm not sure the show is really willing to go there - I feel as if we're supposed to sympathize with Dorothy.

[theatremouse]

I no longer feel as though the show is trying to make us sympathize with Dorothy. They sort of dropped the thing about her background and around the same time I felt like she was no longer poised as the protagonist. Just one of a large ensemble, each with their own substories.

That said, while I don't dispute the cruelty of crucifying him, he was also trying to choke her to death. That's not only a very cruel, but very personal way to murder someone. So that whole sequence to me, the choking and the stabbing and the hoisting, was basically telling me these two are both very far gone. There is no going back for them. Considering how fake-rom-com-plot-close they seemed to be heading for a while, now that he's got his memories back, now that the thing with Glinda's transpired, basically they completely shut the door on how the R+D relationship was initially running. It was almost very interesting to me? I think if the show were on HBO I'd trust it more to be as dark that those two scenes suggest it's headed, but I don't quite believe it because it's on NBC. These two should be deep dark enemies moving forward given what they've both done to each other.

[attica]

I'm feeling ripped off, lion-wise. I want an actual character with an actual story! Not some stupid flashback helmet. Fooey.

[I-Kare]

You know how sometimes you personally don't click with an actor? I feel that with the woman playing Dorothy. For me, Adria just doesn't work. That's disappointing since I was looking forward to the show and - even though everyone above is right, it's more ensemble now - she's still a large part of the story. So for me, she's a big part of why I'm not enjoying it. Before anyone tells me to just not watch then, I am trying to just tough it out since I want to like it. But you have to admit, your enjoyment of a show can be effected when one of the main characters just doesn't work for you. 

Plus, I've been a fan of Oliver Jackson-Cohen for years, which is why I started the show to begin with. So if I'm going to watch him, I have to be more invested in Dorothy. (To add more more disclaimer, I'm sure Adria is a lovely personal.)

Edited February 28, 2017 by I-Kare
typo

[alaynestone]

21 hours ago, milizard said:

Anyway, the way this all went down took a lot of the enjoyment of watching this show away from me.  The saving grace was the lady Ev reveal.  Awesome.  I don't think the purpose of the masks were to hide her age so much as her difficulty in expressing emotions with her face--hence the masks for every feeling.  Why they would claim it's the other thing, I don't know.

I actually like that reason a lot!  It makes sense too - Jane said that Ev had her make thousands of different masks: one for sorrow, joy, etc.  All emotions - emotions she couldn't express on her own fully.  Goes much deeper with the plot of her being an android - how much does she truly feel?

[SimoneS]

Finally, I get to post. I am leaning towards Langwidere (I love this name) not knowing that she is an android. Langwidere is determined, presumptuous, and spoilt, but  I have never sensed deception from her. She might know that something is off, but I don't think that she knows it is because she is android. Her father probably had Jane program her memories so she does recall "her past."  

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, theatremouse said:

he was also trying to choke her to death. That's not only a very cruel, but very personal way to murder someone.

He was doing the classic take-down choke favored by Jack Bauer and his ilk.  Nothing personal about it.  That's she demanded that he look at her if he was going to kill her -- to make it personal.

[LocimusPrime]

Ok so this show is basically making Glenda " the white witch" and Frank - the wizard of oz the bad guys. The good guys are supposed to be Tip ( a black transgender girl), Dorothy ( a Hispanic girl) aided by some " Indian/ native type people.  

Comeon now 

I really dislike Tip and Dorothy as the heroes of the show. I don't sympathize with them. They both seem bratty to me. 

My favorite character has to be the Witch of the West  

Edited February 28, 2017 by LocimusPrime

[phoenics]

On 2/27/2017 at 6:52 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I have to really object to this one, Dorothy tried to kill his wife! In her sleep! Does he not have the right to demand justice? Does Glinda not have the right to demand Dorothy's life after Dorothy attacked her, in her bedroom, while she was asleep?

Let's not forget that this whole chain of events was set in motion by Dorothy making a deal with The Wizard to kill Glinda in exchange for a trip home.  

But that's not what happened.  Lucas didn't go after her for the reasons you listed - he went after her to kill her because it was the only way to cut her out of his heart.  It's the old, "kill the one you love" thing - that's what Glinda told him he needed to do in order to fall out of love with Dorothy and devote himself back to her.  And Glinda promised that if he didn't kill Dorothy, then she would.

So - that's pretty evil of both of them.

I can actually understand Dorothy's motivation for trying to kill Glinda (I think the room of the warped witches and Sylvie/Leaf turning her back on her made her snap) more than I can understand Lucas trying to kill her because he was in love with her and couldn't stop loving her.

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

He was doing the classic take-down choke favored by Jack Bauer and his ilk.  Nothing personal about it.  That's she demanded that he look at her if he was going to kill her -- to make it personal.

Except that kinda is personal.  He can't look at her in the face because he knows he's wrong - so he tries to do it from behind and kill her so he doesn't have to look her in the eyes and KNOW what he's doing.  What's odd to me though is that he seemed almost like he wasn't in control of his actions - like he couldn't stop.  He screamed for Dorothy to stop him - like he couldn't stop himself.  If that's not what was going on - if he wasn't under some kind of spell - then he's simply a weak, pathetic person.  It's NOT Dorothy's fault that you met her and fell in love with her.  As far as she knew, he wasn't married - she had NO WAY of knowing that.  It was his and Glinda's plan to take the "blue pill" and they should bear the consequences of that.  As far as I'm concerned, Dorothy had no choice but to leave him tied up.  I'm sure the hoisting him up like a scarecrow was just done for dramatic effect and the writers probably still intend for folks to sympathize with Dorothy.  I do - but I still like (liked?) Roan.  But I'm still shaking my head at how he acted like only Dorothy killing him would stop him.

Why?

And again - will we ever find out what those dots on Dorothy's hand mean?

9 hours ago, LocimusPrime said:

Ok so this show is basically making Glenda " the white witch" and Frank - the wizard of oz the bad guys. The good guys are supposed to be Tip ( a black transgender girl), Dorothy ( a Hispanic girl) aided by some " Indian/ native type people.  

Comeon now 

I really dislike Tip and Dorothy as the heroes of the show. I don't sympathize with them. They both seem bratty to me. 

My favorite character has to be the Witch of the West  

Honestly I think the point of this show is that the characters are all pretty much gray - no one is pure black or white except maybe the Wizard.  And possibly Glinda.  But that's two out of a ton:

Jack (white):  good guy who makes mistakes

Anna (white):  good girl (from the council)

King of Ev (white):  good guy who was killed for being senile and scaring a witch who couldn't control her powers

Sylvie (white):  good girl, but ambiguously dangerous due to her powers and ability to wreak havoc

Black orphanage lady:  I don't think she was meant to be all that good - snatching girls off the street against their will.

Elizabeth (black):  morally ambiguous - she was beholden to Glinda, but did seem to have good intentions

1st council girl who got pregnant (asian):  we never really got to see her but not a good look that she's revealed as knocked up when that wasn't her job and she was supposed to be "chaste".

Languidere (white):  good robot who might not know she's a robot?

There is nothing "Native" about the Munchk'yins (except in dress) or whatever they're called - the actors all seem to be white.

Dorothy's mother:  white and a good character

Jane (white):  a character who clearly got a comeuppance for any arrogance she might have shown to Frank

WWoW (white):  gray character, but I think we are supposed to root for her as mostly good and sympathetic

Lion/whatshisname (can't remember what race he is, but it's not white):  He killed the king and queen in cold blood.

Edited February 28, 2017 by phoenics

[jhlipton]

29 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Except that kinda is personal.  He can't look at her in the face because he knows he's wrong - so he tries to do it from behind and kill her so he doesn't have to look her in the eyes and KNOW what he's doing.

I was responding to theatremouse's comment (heard on every procedural ever) that "chocking (as a method) is personal".  The way we normally think of a choking -- face-to-face -- it is very personal.  But from the back, this method was not.

16 minutes ago, phoenics said:

There is nothing "Native" about the Munchk'yins (except in dress) or whatever they're called - the actors all seem to be white.

You left East, Merciful and Stern (black) off your list.  That's understandable since she was advertised as a major character and got about three lines.  Hell, yeah, I'm bitter.

I see the Munchk'yins as more like Celts or Picts than Native.  (I made a comment about woad at some point...)  If that's the case, it makes sense that they're white.

[xqueenfrostine]

On 2/24/2017 at 9:51 PM, djinn said:

That raises all sorts of questions about androids. Also, what exactly is Jack? Is he still human? or should be classified a s a robot too?

He's a cyborg isn't it?  He's both human and machine.

On 2/24/2017 at 11:50 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Now with the giants, she's igniting the very war she told Nahara she wanted to avoid. 

Maybe not.  If she can use the giants to discredit the Wizard, it's possible that his army will abandon him once it's revealed that's he's a fraud.  He's told people for the last 20 years that he alone can control the giants.  It should become clear quickly that that was never true.  At that point, Frank might agree to go back to Kansas with Dorothy in order to avoid getting axed by his former subjects.  And even if he doesn't, Glinda may not feel the need to use force against anyone in Oz if they depose the Wizard themselves.  

On 2/25/2017 at 2:22 PM, Terrafamilia said:

Oz/Frank...I just now got that. Deliberate or coincidence?

Coincidence.  Frank is the first name of both the author of the original Oz series and of the actor who played the Wizard in the 1939 movie.  Well, Lyman was technically Baum's first name, but he went by Frank.

On 2/25/2017 at 9:00 AM, phoenics said:

I love Toto - but damn - he's a POLICE DOG.  So if he has to die to protect Dorothy, so be it.  It's his job.  He dies in the line of duty. 

While I agree with your overall sentiment that it's silly to scold Dorothy as she's fleeing from a man who is trying to kill her, why does it matter that Toto is a police dog instead of a regular dog?  It's not as if Toto volunteered for the police force, and is fulfilling the destiny of his own choosing.  I should hope we don't inherently value a dog's life less just because someone bred it and trained it for a dangerous occupation that it never asked for.

On 2/25/2017 at 8:53 PM, LittleIggy said:

More like when the writers say that is how it's pronounced. Nobody pronounces float, oat, or loan with two syllables! As for Roanoke, some Virginians pronounce the Roan part as one syllable. 

There are so few, if any, hard and fast phonics rules in English that it's ridiculous to try to argue that any sort of pronunciation is The Right Way just by listing similarly spelled words.  As a hodgepodge language, and English grammar and pronunciation are incredibly inconsistent.   Pronouncing oa as a single vowel sound is more common, but it is not the only way to treat those letters.  Boa, coalition, coagulate, inchoate, protozoa, and yes Roanoke pronounce the "oa" as two separate vowel sounds.

Edited February 28, 2017 by xqueenfrostine

[LocimusPrime]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Honestly I think the point of this show is that the characters are all pretty much gray - no one is pure black or white except maybe the Wizard.  And possibly Glinda.  But that's two out of a ton:

Jack (white):  good guy who makes mistakes

Anna (white):  good girl (from the council)

King of Ev (white):  good guy who was killed for being senile and scaring a witch who couldn't control her powers

Sylvie (white):  good girl, but ambiguously dangerous due to her powers and ability to wreak havoc

Black orphanage lady:  I don't think she was meant to be all that good - snatching girls off the street against their will.

Elizabeth (black):  morally ambiguous - she was beholden to Glinda, but did seem to have good intentions

1st council girl who got pregnant (asian):  we never really got to see her but not a good look that she's revealed as knocked up when that wasn't her job and she was supposed to be "chaste".

Languidere (white):  good robot who might not know she's a robot?

There is nothing "Native" about the Munchk'yins (except in dress) or whatever they're called - the actors all seem to be white.

Dorothy's mother:  white and a good character

Jane (white):  a character who clearly got a comeuppance for any arrogance she might have shown to Frank

WWoW (white):  gray character, but I think we are supposed to root for her as mostly good and sympathetic

Lion/whatshisname (can't remember what race he is, but it's not white):  He killed the king and queen in cold blood.

Maybe it was just the episode...I was watching it with some friends and they said the same thing. The scarecrow guy was evil trying to kill poor Hispanic Dorothy. While Frank and evil Glenda are about to battle. The heroes of this episode are Dorothy and Tip?  Either way there are tons of minor characters that you have listed but the major non dead ones are Dorothy, tip, west, Frank, and Glenda and the leader of the Indian folk - that's what we all thought.  Don't they wear like feathers and have war paint and live in those Indian type tepee/shack things?

Edited February 28, 2017 by LocimusPrime

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, jhlipton said:

You left East, Merciful and Stern (black) off your list.  That's understandable since she was advertised as a major character and got about three lines.  Hell, yeah, I'm bitter.

 

And I am horrified that I did!  Wow - can't believe I did that.  I guess I'd classify her as gray - we have no way of knowing who/what she was, but she didn't seem to get along with Glinda - remember that power blast she laid on her? I wonder if Glinda was trying to get her gauntlets?  Speaking of which - I wonder if that's why Glinda really wants Dorothy dead - she needs/wants the gauntlets?

Quote

I see the Munchk'yins as more like Celts or Picts than Native.  (I made a comment about woad at some point...)  If that's the case, it makes sense that they're white.

Yes I agree - I was responding to LocimusPrime, who said they were "Native American".

5 hours ago, LocimusPrime said:

Maybe it was just the episode...I was watching it with some friends and they said the same thing. The scarecrow guy was evil trying to kill poor Hispanic Dorothy. While Frank and evil Glenda are about to battle. The heroes of this episode are Dorothy and Tip?  Either way there are tons of minor characters that you have listed but the major non dead ones are Dorothy, tip, west, Frank, and Glenda and the leader of the Indian folk - that's what we all thought.  Don't they wear like feathers and have war paint and live in those Indian type tepee/shack things?

If Glinda is a "major" character, then so is West.  And so is Lady Ev, and so is Jack.  So while The Wizard and Glinda both seem evil and power hungry, they are balanced out by other white characters so there is diversity in how they (white characters) are being portrayed.  That was my point.  And I think all of the characters - except The Wizard - are meant to be gray.  Even Glinda, whom I cannot stand, lol.

And there are other cultures that wear feathers and tribal paint - and those cultures weren't referred to as "Indian" (as in Cowboys and Indians), but as Native peoples, or as the group they came from (how they named themselves).  In this case, like jhlipton pointed out, they seem Celtic to him.  And most if the characters I listed all had more screen time than the leader of the Munchk'yins (however you spell that) - so they are more major than he is.  But it's interesting that you saw the headresses, clothes and war paint and automatically cast them as not white, even though the actors playing them are?  Can you elaborate on that - I'm curious how that played out in your head - if they had white actors but dressed them in items normally associated with ... hinduism ... for example... would that erase their whiteness for you?  I'm honestly asking - mostly because you made a point I had never considered that way before... 

[nitrofishblue]

After watching this last episode, I realized that the guy in the village at the end (he has the white stuff all over his face) is also the character that plays the wizard: Vincent. Made me wonder about just who is who since (to me) some of the characters have made little sense to the original Wizard. Does anyone else see this?

[milizard]

On 2/27/2017 at 7:52 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

Not only was he stabbed and, bleeding out but, if that didn't kill him, he would die a slow, painful death from dehydration, exhaustion and asphyxiation.

If she "cared" about him at all, she would have finished the job (mercy) or just fucking left him on the ground where she stabbed him. At least that way, he could have made an attempt to seek medical help or return to Glinda.  Instead she took the time to tie crucify him and, guarantee his death. 

I have to really object to this one, Dorothy tried to kill his wife! In her sleep! Does he not have the right to demand justice? Does Glinda not have the right to demand Dorothy's life after Dorothy attacked her, in her bedroom, while she was asleep?

Let's not forget that this whole chain of events was set in motion by Dorothy making a deal with The Wizard to kill Glinda in exchange for a trip home.  

I get that the show tried to wrap the whole thing up in a creepy love triangle but, the reality is, the minute Dorothy accepted the Wizard's offer, she became an assassin. The minute Dorothy barged into Glinda's bedroom and tried to strangle her, Dorothy became a murderer (or at least attempted murderer).

BTW I'm not excusing/defending or white washing Glinda, she has her own crimes/sins to pay for but, in this instance she's actually the victim and Dorothy the criminal.

I don't know.  All I know is she left him exactly how she found him in the first place, which he was able to recover from with simple medicinal practices sans magic.

As far as his right to come after Dorothy for attacking his wife.  The time for his justification for that would have been during the act--not after he stops her by appealing to the feelings that had supposedly shared.  He didn't say, "please stop, but even if you do stop and go away, I'm still going to hunt you down and kill you."  Seems like shitty turn around.  YMMV.  Glinda had every right and ability to come after Dorothy herself in order to demand justice.  Roan/Lucas lost that right by the way he stopped it before.

As for justification in killing Glinda, there might have been enough, might not.  There certainly was some--pushing young witches over the edge and planning on killing Dorothy come to mind (though she sent the young witch to do her dirty work for her).  Apparently, in this world, you need a lot more justification for killing a witch than killing a human.  I mean, Dorothy was even blamed for murdering East, while East was torturing her and Lucas and sending them to the prison of abject.  Seemed like self-defense to me, but for some reason, Dorothy is expected to act perfectly at all times while the witches are okay as long as they're not completely horrid.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, nitrofishblue said:

After watching this last episode, I realized that the guy in the village at the end (he has the white stuff all over his face) is also the character that plays the wizard: Vincent. Made me wonder about just who is who since (to me) some of the characters have made little sense to the original Wizard. Does anyone else see this?

Wait - what?  Are you saying the leader of the Munch'kyns (spelling I know) is played by the same actor who plays the Wizard?  Or something else?

8 hours ago, milizard said:

 Apparently, in this world, you need a lot more justification for killing a witch than killing a human.  I mean, Dorothy was even blamed for murdering East, while East was torturing her and Lucas and sending them to the prison of abject.  Seemed like self-defense to me, but for some reason, Dorothy is expected to act perfectly at all times while the witches are okay as long as they're not completely horrid.

I couldn't agree more.  

[rainsmom]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:04 PM, alaynestone said:

Langwidere being killed and then turning out to be a robot was... a surprise.  So, she's been an adult for the past 20 years?  How did that work?  Unless Jane created new bodies for her from the time she was supposed to be alive and a child to now..

  Reveal hidden contents

This would make sense since in the books Ozma inherently has magic.

Sorry, can't get rid of the hidden contents. I am just replying to the snipped part.

Jane said that the masks were used to cover up a face that didn't age. Since the king we met was rather aged, my guess is that Langwidere was 20 when she died. She's hiding her face, because she should now appear to be 40.