S05.E06: Erica's Story

[steff13]

I'm re-watching Erica.  Her sister and her BIL as just awful.  I get that they are probably tired of dealing with her, and they need to draw boundaries, but you can do that without being so nasty, I think. 

[CaughtOnTape]

I know it's easy to condemn her family for the way they acted, because yes, they were assholes.  But they display signs of having dealt with it for however many years and now they're just done.  Erica is super selfish, super whiny, super entitled and super unthoughtful about her own responsibility in what has gone on with her.

She's also manipulative as fuck as evidenced by how she had turned to abusing her niece in order to get what she wanted.  (And yes, guilting her niece into buying food for her or she'd get angry at her is abuse).  I'm sure they've all got a certain amount of anger with her based on the fact that she can't do anything without the "woe is me" attitude permeating EVERY SINGLE THING.  She's got that damn black cloud over her head everywhere she goes and she can never see a positive in anything.  Someone does something for her and it's not good enough.  People don't come to see her and they don't care about her.  It's always someone else's fault for why her life is the way it is and at some point, people get sick and tired of that trope.

She did it with the Doctor too.  She fought him every single step of the way.  Dealing with someone who knows there's an issue and doesn't have a problem whining about it but in the same breath won't do anything to fix it is exhausting.  The first sign of difficulty and she's threatening to go home, eat what she wants and die.  I mean...how can you continue to try to help someone who acts like that?  It seems to me like they have decided to build up a wall around themselves so when she does die they can live with themselves for not being able to help.

I don't see a good outcome for her.  I would assume any follow up will include the fact that she didn't make any progress and has probably gained.  She won't change her life until she starts taking responsibility for her life.  

I am a victim of sexual abuse.  You have a choice to make...deal with it and move on or stay stuck where you are and end up blaming others for where your life has ended up.  Erica has become comfortable with being a victim.  Once someone has given into that, there is very little anyone else around them can do to help.

[Elizabeth9]

On 2/15/2017 at 8:29 AM, notyrmomma said:

He's perpetuating stereotypes of the obese this season pretty badly (it gets worse every season).  You do realize, in the first season he didn't make them (Melissa, Ashley, etc.) lose any weight to "prove" to him that they could lose weight--and they were all at around the 600 pound mark.  I'm not saying that these people shouldn't have to try their own or don't need an intensive amount of therapy--THEY DEFINITELY DO!  But what Dr. Now did, in just the first season anyway, was to take care of the acute problem first, give them weight loss surgery, without the games.  The thing is that these people are in big trouble health wise and every day they live through at 600 + pounds is a miracle.  Therapy doesn't work on a dead person.  First things first, start getting the weight down as quick as possible (if they aren't healthy enough to survive surgery, absolutely admit them to the hospital so they can be put on a very strict and monitored diet), THEN, make sure they are regularly working with a therapist.  The whole "go home and lose 50 pounds to show me you are serious" is just drama for the camera, and is very dangerous.  Seriously, go watch the first season again and you'll see what I mean.

But if they're eating to medication their feelings...the weight isn't going down unless they deal with their issues.  Unless you mean do the surgery immediately.

we dealt with medically fragile underweight anorexics in my treatment program...there's no reason you can't treat and eat the diet st the same time.  Like I said before, both started on day one in this program.  That's part of the reason I advocate for a more intense treatment process (3-5 days a week) because you can cover so much more ground in a month than you can doing once a week therapy for a month:

Edited February 22, 2017 by Elizabeth9

[Pringlescan]

4 hours ago, steff13 said:

I'm re-watching Erica.  Her sister and her BIL as just awful.  I get that they are probably tired of dealing with her, and they need to draw boundaries, but you can do that without being so nasty, I think. 

If you watch they way she treats them by trying to guilt them into things you can tell that she had been being manipulative for years. She doesn't get her way so she tries to guilt them, blame them for what's happening to her.

[Pringlescan]

On 2/15/2017 at 7:29 AM, notyrmomma said:

He's perpetuating stereotypes of the obese this season pretty badly (it gets worse every season).  You do realize, in the first season he didn't make them (Melissa, Ashley, etc.) lose any weight to "prove" to him that they could lose weight--and they were all at around the 600 pound mark.  I'm not saying that these people shouldn't have to try their own or don't need an intensive amount of therapy--THEY DEFINITELY DO!  But what Dr. Now did, in just the first season anyway, was to take care of the acute problem first, give them weight loss surgery, without the games.  The thing is that these people are in big trouble health wise and every day they live through at 600 + pounds is a miracle.  Therapy doesn't work on a dead person.  First things first, start getting the weight down as quick as possible (if they aren't healthy enough to survive surgery, absolutely admit them to the hospital so they can be put on a very strict and monitored diet), THEN, make sure they are regularly working with a therapist.  The whole "go home and lose 50 pounds to show me you are serious" is just drama for the camera, and is very dangerous.  Seriously, go watch the first season again and you'll see what I mean.

He did actually, but if you paid attention you'd also see the 1st season was completely different than any others. It focused on the surgery and after. As for the "go home and lose 50 pounds to show me you are serious" that's not dangerous that's seeing if they can be productive and serious. Read about how many people think this surgery is just you getting it and you don't have to change your diet. Many people that look into the surgery think this and then become highly surprised that you have to be very very strict with your eating. If you can't lose 50lbs practicing good eating habits before the surgery you won't do it after, that is fact.

[Pringlescan]

On 2/14/2017 at 6:46 AM, Elizabeth9 said:

Ok, I'm not done being mad over this.

If overeating is a choice, Now, close the clinic!  Send everyone home, lock the doors, turn off the lights.  Post a sign on the door telling everyone to make better choices, leave the number for a nutritionist and the address of a Planet fitness and call it a day.  The end!

Why is this guy doing surgeries- and making a significant profit off of them- if all of this is a choice?  

It is a choice. She had the choice to stop eating herself that way any time. It may have been hard but she had the choice. This is the issue with obese people and those on the outside looking in. They make excuses and try to diminish their fault in the matter. It doesn't matter what your past history was like, you made teh choice to start a habit and keep on that habit. She made the choice to keep eating and ignore the Dr. and her family. 

Before the dumb comments, I'm obese as well and I put no blame on any past or BS for my wieght. I own it as mine.

[Elizabeth9]

24 minutes ago, Pringlescan said:

It is a choice. She had the choice to stop eating herself that way any time. It may have been hard but she had the choice. This is the issue with obese people and those on the outside looking in. They make excuses and try to diminish their fault in the matter. It doesn't matter what your past history was like, you made teh choice to start a habit and keep on that habit. She made the choice to keep eating and ignore the Dr. and her family. 

Before the dumb comments, I'm obese as well and I put no blame on any past or BS for my wieght. I own it as mine.

If it's a choice (and some people believe it is), then why is Dr Now performing surgery?  Isn't this a strange belief for him to have?

[Maggienolia]

43 minutes ago, Elizabeth9 said:

If it's a choice (and some people believe it is), then why is Dr Now performing surgery?  Isn't this a strange belief for him to have?

I think there is certainly choice involved in the beginning if not all the way through. She chose to eat whatever whenever or just chose not to pay attention to eating/exercise and effects thereof. Addiction - particularly food addiction - choice or beyond choice? Not as clear maybe there. From Dr. Now's (possible) perspective, they make the choice every day, every meal, to overeat or they make the choice to stay in their addiction, to stay in their mindset OR they make the choice to change, to pay more attention to what/how much they eat, to be more active, to get weight-loss surgery, to follow the doc's orders or to just treat the surgery like a "magic fix" and continue to do what they want. There certainly IS a lot of choice throughout the process so not so strange a belief for him to have. 

[Elizabeth9]

So...the $64,000 question.  If it's a choice...and you're currently overweight...why is that?  Why not make the choice, starting today, to follow a diet and exercise program? 

[CaughtOnTape]

3 hours ago, Elizabeth9 said:

So...the $64,000 question.  If it's a choice...and you're currently overweight...why is that?  Why not make the choice, starting today, to follow a diet and exercise program? 

I get where you're going with this...but honestly that's simplifying something that isn't that simple.  You could ask the same thing to smokers.  They know it's killing them, yet they make a choice daily to go and buy cigarettes, light them up and pollute their lungs.

Video game addictions, porn addictions, drug addictions...ANY addiction involves a choice.  You make the choice knowing full well it's not good for you.  Why don't drug addicts just not make the choice to go get drugs?  Why don't video gamers put the games away?

I think getting offended by people saying it's a choice is not seeing the essence of what people are saying.  What has happened lately, and IMO is a problem, is taking away the onus that these people have in dealing with what they've done to themselves...which is exacerbated by saying they don't have a choice.  In my experience when you don't hold someone's feet to the fire for the choice they've made in these instances it only compounds and further pushes it into a bigger problem.  How many times do we hear on this show "It's not my fault!"  "I'm sick!"?  You have to take responsibility for your choices before you can fix them.  

So yes, they have a choice.  However, they should be dealt with as any other addict is dealt with.  

Edited February 24, 2017 by CaughtOnTape

[MillieSparklepants]

I think the shower scenes are unnecessarily humiliating. But, if I were a TV producer, I'd say the shower scenes exist because it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining without them. If you're coming on a message board to talk about it, then IMO, you're probably thinking deeply about the people and the issues of the show. But I'll bet much of the audience just wants to see how all that fat is distributed in every layer and fold. Isn't watching a 600 lb person trying to shower on TV similar to attending a carnival sideshow to stare at the fat lady 100 years ago?

I felt tremendously sorry for Erica. It's clear she's had a tough life and a very shallow support system. She also seemed a little mentally slow to me, did anyone else get that?

But I also can see it from her siblings' perspective. It must be terrible to feel a constant obligation for someone who is so manipulative, ungrateful, and self-destructive. Her siblings really gave a glimpse of what it must be like for them all the time and kudos to them for being willing to be real, as opposed to some of the other relatives who you can tell are playing nice for the cameras.

Just as an aside to the therapy thing, I'm an 80s kid and I think counseling was just becoming a big thing and a lot depended on your access to someone good. I grew up in a very small town and our high school counselor was absolutely useless. I don't know what the kids in my school did who needed help for serious problems and had no other resource but her. There were good counselors back then, but not everywhere and maybe Erica's mom either didn't know how to find someone or couldn't afford it.

[Elizabeth9]

I think, for me, getting off my own ass was a big start in recovery from both alcohol and bulimia.  I was always trying and failing, trying and failing.  I must be weak.  I just have  o self control.  I am a failure.  More reasons to use.  

 I did not feel like I was "choosing" either in the end of the addiction (probably about 10 years for bulimia, truth be told).  It was just something I felt forced to do.  I can't explain it.  It was ruining my life, I didn't want to do it, but I felt like mentally, I would not survive if I didn't.

I guess you can say I made a choice to enter recovery.  But I feel like so much of it is out of my hands- like my Higher Power is helping me along (with psychiatric medication lol).  I feel at peace now- not under the gun of compulsive behaviors.  

Saying addiction is not a choice doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my recovery.  It just means I can't just wake up one day and stop without serious medical, psychological and spiritual intervention.

FWIW I have almost 14 years sober and a few months into this bulimia recovery thing.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Elizabeth9

[Pringlescan]

On 2/22/2017 at 7:56 PM, Elizabeth9 said:

If it's a choice (and some people believe it is), then why is Dr Now performing surgery?  Isn't this a strange belief for him to have?

Because people can make the choice to get better. Isn't everyone allowed the make the choice to fix themselves and get the help? One of the hardest things one can do is admit you have an issue, ask for help and actually use the help. Writing it off as some strange belief if pure ignorance. I mean if that was how things were, why does religions try to help those that aren't saved? Or that don't believe in God? That's a choice they made.

On 2/24/2017 at 5:46 PM, Elizabeth9 said:

 

FWIW I have almost 14 years sober and a few months into this bulimia recovery thing.

That's why it's a choice(and congrats) you make the choice every day to not fall into past habits. 

[TurtlePower]

On 2/22/2017 at 1:53 PM, Elizabeth9 said:

But if they're eating to medication their feelings...the weight isn't going down unless they deal with their issues.  Unless you mean do the surgery immediately.

we dealt with medically fragile underweight anorexics in my treatment program...there's no reason you can't treat and eat the diet st the same time.  Like I said before, both started on day one in this program.  That's part of the reason I advocate for a more intense treatment process (3-5 days a week) because you can cover so much more ground in a month than you can doing once a week therapy for a month:

Treatment for anorexia must have come a long way since I was in for it. They never treated the whole person, they just tried to make us eat and they were often condescending assholes. I think it's probably the hardest thing to get over: With everything else, they remove a substance. With anorexia, it's the opposite--they're trying to force it into us without understanding why we don't want it in the first place. Most counselors have never been ana and it's hard to listen to babble from someone who has never been there themselves. 

[Elizabeth9]

On 3/2/2017 at 2:09 PM, Pringlescan said:

Because people can make the choice to get better. Isn't everyone allowed the make the choice to fix themselves and get the help? One of the hardest things one can do is admit you have an issue, ask for help and actually use the help. Writing it off as some strange belief if pure ignorance. I mean if that was how things were, why does religions try to help those that aren't saved? Or that don't believe in God? That's a choice they made.

That's why it's a choice(and congrats) you make the choice every day to not fall into past habits. 

Pure ignorance didn't get me 14 years sober.  Ho much time do you have free of any addiction?

Its odd to perform surgery- massive surgery on medically sensitIve people- if you think they can make a choice to change their lives on their own.  Why do the surgery?  Why not just do a food and exercise program?

Edited March 7, 2017 by Elizabeth9

[Christina]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't think I'm fully following the conversation about choice versus surgery. That said, the surgery is like Methadone in heroin addiction; get started getting clean while working on the underlying reasons for the addiction. A heroin addict is unlikely to be able to stop using while going through therapy. Every visit where they bring up the things from their past that they are turning to drugs to forget would result in them turning back to the heroin to forget, again. 

I think Dr. Now saying that the patients are choosing to eat bad food is trying to get the attention back on to the fact that they are the ones making that choice. They tend to blame everyone else for their bad nutritional choices. They can't get their own food, so the only food they can eat is what is prepared, purchased and presented to them, when as we all know, that is complete and utter bullshit. The editing doesn't do the scenes with Dr. Now service. He speaks in choppy sentences as it is and most of us come away confused with his scenes. But, they have to make room for the naked washing scenes, which I don't agree are necessary to make the viewers understand how damaged the bodies are when them clothed but arms and legs showing does it just as well.

I'm clearly missing the distinction in the debate about choice and surgery when it seems to me that you all are saying the same general things. Dr. Now is telling them they have a choice while doing the surgery, causing confusion for us viewers and making it sound like he's shaming the patients and suggesting that they can just stop eating when he knows it's not true. Asking them to lose some weight first is based on the fact that it causes the liver to shrink and the surgery to go better. He has said that in past episodes. It also shows that they are willing to try. If they are not willing to try before getting surgery, they may not be successful after surgery and just stretch their stomachs out. 

[Elizabeth9]

It just struck me as odd that he was so insistent that it was a choice to overeat.  If it truly is a choice, why physically alter the human body to prevent the person from overeating?  Isn't the implication here that the person cannot stop themselves, so a doctor must come in and create a physical barrier to prevent overeating?  This would imply that it's NOT a choice- that people simply cannot stop to the point that doctors like him are in the business of performing surgery on them to prevent them from overeating.

Now knows it's not that simple.  If it was that simple, he wouldn't have a practice.  He wouldn't have a job.  People would simply realize the error of their ways and stop long before things like porch showers are involved.  He was being argumentative and unnecessarily so.  People need to stop blaming everyone else- YES.  They need to realize that shit has gotten completely out of hand- YES.  They need to take some responsibility.  But let's not pretend that some lecture on diet and exercise can save them.  They need serious intervention.  They're in a nightgown, in the back of a minivan, with all the seats removed, and they're still hurting for space.  They're shitting in a bedpan in a Burger King parking lot.  They're taking up a row of airline seats.  Don't get coy and act like the little speech on diet and exercise will turn this ship around- especially when you're going to eviscerate their intestines and stomachs for thousands of dollars, because that's how you make your living.  Now knows they've bypassed the choice stage.  He was just being obstinate.

[CousinOliver]

It's a choice.  

The surgery makes that choice easier to make for some.  Plenty of people have failed WLS because they choose to graze on the high fat/calorie foods afterwards.  

Obviously this choice is harder for some than others.  One of those reasons is addiction.  But people *choose* to fight their addictions every day.  

The problem, IMO, is that most people moralize those choices.  The person is a "bad" person because of binging.  If the person is fat, a double moral failing for eating and allowing themselves to be "unattractive" by Western beauty standards.  Reality show fat is a triple moral failing for eating, "unattractive", and a burden to someone or several someones.  I disagree with this (strongly); it's not a moral failure to struggle with addiction, pleasure, etc., but it doesn't make it any less of a choice.

[okerry]

I always take Dr. Now's lectures as saying, "I can't help you by myself. You have to do your part, too."

Willpower alone won't cure these people. But surgery alone won't cure them, either. It's the combination that does the trick.

We already know that Dr. Now can do his part, with the surgery. He is willing and able to do that. But it would be a huge waste of time and resources to do surgery before the patient has proved that they're willing to do THEIR part as well and at least meet the doctor halfway.

That's why they've got to show they care enough to get some kind of control over their food addiction *first.* 

[Christina]

I have always found Dr. Now to be rude and dismissive. One example was when one of his patients became so ill she was rushed to the hospital and had a feeding tube inserted. He threw a tantrum about how she was supposed to call him or tell the doctors at the hospital to call him and blamed her for setting her treatment back since now he was going to have to do another surgery to remove the tube. The ER doctors determined that she needed immediate treatment to try and correct her serious issues.

Having suffered severe pain and being rushed to the hospital, I can tell you that if the doctor put a piece of paper in front of me and said, "Sign here, we need to do an emergency surgery. You should know that you will have to walk around with the tail feather of a peacock sticking out of your head for the rest of your life," I would have signed the paper. If my doctor then yelled at me for being so dumb, I would have yelled back to see how well he was able to think in that much pain. Your brain is yelling at you that you are dying, get help immediately, and with every passing minute you are thinking of ways to make the pain stop. 

He also blamed one of his patients for causing her own stomach issues because she was taking too many pain pills, when she was taking the pain pills because of the problems with her stomach, which he didn't take seriously as anything other than her trying to overeat. She said she couldn't eat anything let alone too much. Dr. Now often has to get tough because he is talking to addicts, some of which could win Academy Awards for their ability to blow smoke up the asses of everyone around them, but he has always come across as a judgmental know it all to me.

[Elizabeth9]

That's my point.  Now was being combative about it, and there's no point to that.  The person is there to get help.  They don't feel like they can stop on their own.  We can sit here all day and argue if it's a choice or not (sure as hell didn't feel like one to me), but in that moment, the patient felt helpless and didn't know what else to do- that's why she was at the doctors to get her stomach surgically altered.  When I had gone for help, if the first thing the counselor wanted to do was argue about my eating disorder being a choice, I would have gotten up and left and never gone back.  I wanted HELP.  Because I COULD NOT STOP.  I was there for someone to tell me how to stop, not lecture me.  I already knew I was fucking up my life every single day.  No one knows the insanity of fucking hating doing something WHILE you're doing it and despising yourself for doing it, but still not being able to stop- unless you're an addict.  Fortunately I was met with a comprehensive, multi-faceted plan- that's where Now is lacking.  Notice what has happened in literally EVERY episode this season:  Now talks to them, tells them to lose 30-50 lbs.  stop fucking eating.  Family, stop fucking enabling them.  Here's a list of healthy food.  BYE!  Next weigh in:  no (or minimal) weight lost.  Following weigh in:  same thing.  Now:  you need to see a therapist.  Person goes to therapy.  Next weigh in:  significant weight lost.  Happens every week.  Telling someone to stop without offering additional help isn't enough.  Now may be an expert in medicine, but his treatment approach needs some tweaking.  Offer therapy from the start.  Listen to people- don't assume they're all full of shit lying addicts.  

Edited March 10, 2017 by Elizabeth9

[notyrmomma]

23 hours ago, Elizabeth9 said:

That's my point.  Now was being combative about it, and there's no point to that.  The person is there to get help.  They don't feel like they can stop on their own.  We can sit here all day and argue if it's a choice or not (sure as hell didn't feel like one to me), but in that moment, the patient felt helpless and didn't know what else to do- that's why she was at the doctors to get her stomach surgically altered.  When I had gone for help, if the first thing the counselor wanted to do was argue about my eating disorder being a choice, I would have gotten up and left and never gone back.  I wanted HELP.  Because I COULD NOT STOP.  I was there for someone to tell me how to stop, not lecture me.  I already knew I was fucking up my life every single day.  No one knows the insanity of fucking hating doing something WHILE you're doing it and despising yourself for doing it, but still not being able to stop- unless you're an addict.  Fortunately I was met with a comprehensive, multi-faceted plan- that's where Now is lacking.  Notice what has happened in literally EVERY episode this season:  Now talks to them, tells them to lose 30-50 lbs.  stop fucking eating.  Family, stop fucking enabling them.  Here's a list of healthy food.  BYE!  Next weigh in:  no (or minimal) weight lost.  Following weigh in:  same thing.  Now:  you need to see a therapist.  Person goes to therapy.  Next weigh in:  significant weight lost.  Happens every week.  Telling someone to stop without offering additional help isn't enough.  Now may be an expert in medicine, but his treatment approach needs some tweaking.  Offer therapy from the start.  Listen to people- don't assume they're all full of shit lying addicts.  

Yes - many people don't get this (because they never lived it).  Dr. Now really stepped up his asshole game this season, he wasn't this bad before.  Show me you can do it he says...OK - what a good idea - it had never crossed my mind that I need to stop shoving crappy food in my face all day.  WOW!

I think if you manage to get yourself up to 600 pounds, you have an eating disorder and it should be treated as such.  They probably have a binge eating disorder (BED) - this is really a thing.

When I was 13, I was severely overweight and my parents checked me into a rehab facility for eating disorders for six weeks where not only my eating was closely monitored, but I received intensive therapy and nutrition lessons.  Health insurance covered this. (OK, I gained the weight back in college and ended up getting bariatric surgery when I was 40, but it really helped me get through my teenage years).  That's what these people need (and most people over, say, 300 lbs).  They still need the surgery as an important tool, but the eating disorder treatment and nutritional counseling should be included too.

[Elizabeth9]

On 3/11/2017 at 8:26 AM, notyrmomma said:

Yes - many people don't get this (because they never lived it).  Dr. Now really stepped up his asshole game this season, he wasn't this bad before.  Show me you can do it he says...OK - what a good idea - it had never crossed my mind that I need to stop shoving crappy food in my face all day.  WOW!

I think if you manage to get yourself up to 600 pounds, you have an eating disorder and it should be treated as such.  They probably have a binge eating disorder (BED) - this is really a thing.

When I was 13, I was severely overweight and my parents checked me into a rehab facility for eating disorders for six weeks where not only my eating was closely monitored, but I received intensive therapy and nutrition lessons.  Health insurance covered this. (OK, I gained the weight back in college and ended up getting bariatric surgery when I was 40, but it really helped me get through my teenage years).  That's what these people need (and most people over, say, 300 lbs).  They still need the surgery as an important tool, but the eating disorder treatment and nutritional counseling should be included too.

EXACTLY.  BED is an eating disorder!

(which will bring out the people who say things like "maybe they just really like food" and "they just don't understand about calories."  Spare us.  They.  Weigh.  600.  Pounds.)

Edited March 12, 2017 by Elizabeth9

[AdorkableWitch]

I am a food addict. I have eaten so many times without thinking. I can't tell you how many times I have put food in my mouth and not really realized it. 

I was put in a very stressful situation last week and grabbed a hand full of junk that was on the table. I had to get up and spit it out. 

[Maggienolia]

On 2/24/2017 at 6:46 PM, Elizabeth9 said:

I think, for me, getting off my own ass was a big start in recovery from both alcohol and bulimia.  I was always trying and failing, trying and failing.  I must be weak.  I just have  o self control.  I am a failure.  More reasons to use.  

 I did not feel like I was "choosing" either in the end of the addiction (probably about 10 years for bulimia, truth be told).  It was just something I felt forced to do.  I can't explain it.  It was ruining my life, I didn't want to do it, but I felt like mentally, I would not survive if I didn't.

I guess you can say I made a choice to enter recovery.  But I feel like so much of it is out of my hands- like my Higher Power is helping me along (with psychiatric medication lol).  I feel at peace now- not under the gun of compulsive behaviors.  

Saying addiction is not a choice doesn't mean I'm not responsible for my recovery.  It just means I can't just wake up one day and stop without serious medical, psychological and spiritual intervention.

FWIW I have almost 14 years sober and a few months into this bulimia recovery thing.

I think it's like the nature/nurture argument. It's not one or the other; it's both. Do addicts choose the behaviour that led to the addiction (taking that first drink, drinking the first cocktail, etc.)? Yes, and... it's more complicated than being a simple choice or a compulsion 100% out of a person's control. If there were no choice at all involved, then recovery wouldn't be possible because no one would have the power to choose to enter into recovery/treatment nor to continue to make the choices to stay in recovery (which are daily if not hourly). I choose to make healthier choices for this meal. I'm going to have to make that choice over and over for every meal I eat for the rest of my life. Will I always make the best choice? No, probably not. But I get to choose better the next time. 

Kudos to you for your recovery and sobriety. 

[ChristmasJones]

"nature vs. nurture" is a false, and out-dated, dichotomy 

modern thinking is "nature and nurture"  - how do they interact with each other? how do they influence each other? how are certain genes affected by environmental factors?  There is so much fascinating research in this arena. We are only in the infancy of understanding this stuff. A hundred years from now they will look back at our medical and mental health care and it will seem completely archaic. 

here is a great overview on the topic of how genes interact with the environment: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/

here is one example in terms of how depression can be connected to both genes and the environment:  https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/09/150922104002.htm

"Those with the s/s genotype (23%) who had experienced sexual or physical abuse as a child were more likely to experience ongoing severe depressive symptoms in middle age. But, conversely, those with this same genotype but no history of abuse were happier than the rest of the population.

Researchers from the Departments of Psychiatry and General Practice at the University of Melbourne, say the findings challenge traditional thinking about depression.

In the future, the gene could signal a person's susceptibility to depression, particularly if they have a history of child abuse. And it may help doctors identify patients who need extra assistance to recover from depression."

Here is an article about the role of genetics in obesity.

For instance, the recent discoveries in genetics have found that people differ in their perceptions of hunger and satiety on a genetic basis and that predisposed subgroups of the population may be particularly vulnerable to obesity in “obesogenic” societies with unlimited access to food. This notion must lead to a more open attitude toward obese people and a reduction in discrimination against them [123], it is clear that obesity cannot be considered as a consequence only of indolence or lack of will, as often thought in our societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137002/

[Elizabeth9]

7 hours ago, Maggienolia said:

I think it's like the nature/nurture argument. It's not one or the other; it's both. Do addicts choose the behaviour that led to the addiction (taking that first drink, drinking the first cocktail, etc.)? Yes, and... it's more complicated than being a simple choice or a compulsion 100% out of a person's control. If there were no choice at all involved, then recovery wouldn't be possible because no one would have the power to choose to enter into recovery/treatment nor to continue to make the choices to stay in recovery (which are daily if not hourly). I choose to make healthier choices for this meal. I'm going to have to make that choice over and over for every meal I eat for the rest of my life. Will I always make the best choice? No, probably not. But I get to choose better the next time. 

Kudos to you for your recovery and sobriety. 

Agreed- I just think there's a time and a place for the whole "it's a choice" arguement.  Maybe for Pauline or Penny, in month 11, when they've been offered nutritional counseling and therapy and group support and surgery and they're STILL making excuses.  But on day one of treatment?  It reminds me of Intervention- if anyone watches that show.  At the Intervention, no one discusses why the person is an addict or whose fault it is- the goal is just to get them into treatment.  If Now had them in therapy right away, they'd be figuring this stuff out all along.  

[Tabbygirl521]

I have identical twin grandsons who just turned 2-1/2. It has been fascinating to see how, pretty much from the start, they have quite different personalities, likes, dislikes, reactions, demeanors. I am fascinated to watch them developing.

just a random spewing triggered by "nature vs nurture." ?

[ShortyMac]

OMFG, Erica's sister...what a total bitch. Nasty. But I've missed the first hour. I'll go back and watch it.

[Gforce5]

I have just recently tuned in so I'm playing catch up but OMG Ericas sister is a total bitch!  I completely applaud her for doing her journey completely by herself! Erica your mother would be so proud of you and shame shame on your sister, who could stand to lose some weight herself, for being such a cold hearted bitch to your situation! 

[IOU Payne]

Unpopular opinion:  I don't think the sister was a total bitch at all.  I had a situation in my family where a close relative was being enabled by their recently-deceased parent, and I had to lay down heavy-duty boundaries to make sure I would not inherit the role of enabler.  It worked, and lo and behold, my family member learned to stand on their own two feet!  

[TurtlePower]

22 minutes ago, IOU Payne said:

Unpopular opinion:  I don't think the sister was a total bitch at all.  I had a situation in my family where a close relative was being enabled by their recently-deceased parent, and I had to lay down heavy-duty boundaries to make sure I would not inherit the role of enabler.  It worked, and lo and behold, my family member learned to stand on their own two feet!  

Me either. In fact, I like Erica's sister for telling Erica what she needed to hear, not what she wanted to hear. Sis didn't put up with any of Erica's shit but still agreed to help her. By not being an enabler and still helping Erica, that's the kind of love these people need to be shown. 

[Brooklynista]

58 minutes ago, Runnergirl said:

Me either. In fact, I like Erica's sister for telling Erica what she needed to hear, not what she wanted to hear. Sis didn't put up with any of Erica's shit but still agreed to help her. By not being an enabler and still helping Erica, that's the kind of love these people need to be shown. 

James K could have used more people like Erica in his life.

[SouthernCross]

Meh...you dont have to be an asshole to people to not be sucked into their drama. She was an asshole.

She put herself in the middle of it all (at least on the show). She could have easily told her Im sorry but until you are ready to help yourself, Im out of here and left....but then she wouldnt have been on TV.   She continually had snarky bitchy remarks even when Erica was making progress. 

She did herself no favors. 

Erica was quite manipulating. Sis was no better. They both seemed to be miserable people. 

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Weighing in late here: It can be very tiring to be constantly told "How dare you not help me more?" and otherwise guilt-tripped by a family member. Erica's childish ultimatum to her brother was the worst: he sensibly asks why he should lose his business and have his family go destitute to be her wetnurse in far-away Houston, and her response is basically "If you don't, I'll die and it'll be your fault."

I'd have ordered her the fuck out of my house for pulling that kind of emotional blackmail.

As for Molly: Yes, she was a queen bitch. On the other hand, she obviously felt manipulated into doing something she hated for a sibling who carried around this dark cloud of negativity and was endlessly demanding. She couldn't reasonably lash out at her husband, so Erica took the brunt. Of course, none of this helps Erica's endless sense of victimhood.

It's just a bad situation all the way around.

[Ocean Chick]

After Erica demanded that her brother toss his family to the curb just to babysit her in Houston, I had no effs to give about how her sister acted towards her.  Erica's sense of entitlement was HUGE, and sis was just done with it.  As she should be.

[LoveInACruelWorld]

The woman had poor nutritional direction growing up. I dealt with that, a generation that thought little kids who are chubby just have baby fat then overnight the child hits teen years and the excuses turn to criticism and snide unhelpful comments. 

The worst part is that this woman has untreated PTSD.  Also it seems like her sister  has no clue as to what Erica went thru or more horrifying is that she knows and doesn't care. The husband is following the sisters lead.  The brother is cool he simply couldn't leave his business, he wasn't cruel and probably knew that she back slid a bit because Molly seems like the type who enjoys giving bad news about her sister.  

Best part of this show was Jessie and the Terapist!! Those two were the MVP's. Love the care Jessie took in caring for her aunt and not leaving her completely alone.  The therapist was great! It is about time they got someone who can actually relate to what these people have been through and are going through.  

I think a lot of Erica's anxiety on the show and her defeated tone had to do with the discovery crew in her home.  There is a tremendous adjustment to having a full crew of people watching you talking about you in your space. That would be nerve wrecking without her past issues. 

I really hope Erica sticks with that therapist she is great. 

[PinkyMcPinkerson]

On 3/12/2017 at 11:13 AM, Elizabeth9 said:

EXACTLY.  BED is an eating disorder!

(which will bring out the people who say things like "maybe they just really like food" and "they just don't understand about calories."  Spare us.  They.  Weigh.  600.  Pounds.)

Yes, while BED is an eating disorder, most also seem to be emotional eaters on top of that. Not that BED doesn't involve emotional triggers, but these things come in such a spectrum, don't they? Some people seem to binge occasionally without it necessarily affecting their overall weight much, while others binge plus constantly cope with things using food, so you've got a pretty tragic combo there. All addictions and disorders have that underlying cause, so of course they need to delve into that and sort things out before any surgery or diet plan will be a success, but I do see the logic in going ahead with surgery too.

It seems not unlike putting an opiate addict on a drug that limits their ability to get high from the drugs..saboxin (I spelled it wrong), because even as they enter treatment (or jump off the wagon) it will at least hopefully limit how much damage they can do to themselves when they make bad choices. I think Dr Now knows on one hand that if they cheat enough, their stomachs will stretch, but in the short term while they're still wrestling with therapy and diet plans, he hopes that at least they'll no longer be able to eat, say..an entire pizza at a time.  It's almost a sort of passive form of behavior modification. Even when they cheat, they have to think "Oh, I can only really eat about this much" so they're still choosing smaller portions, and it's a start..new habits forming.

[CatherineM]

I've seen alcoholics on anabuse drink knowing how sick it will make them. There was a diet drug that made you have explosive diarrhea if you ate something high fat and people still ate dumb stuff. 

[FairyDusted]

Just saw this show for the 1st time today. All I could think of while watching was how damn painful it appears to do anything. Just taking a shower appeared to be a job for the day. Now I stand at the other side having anorexia for almost my entire life, I'm 50. I've been to treatment. Several times. Those got me over the hump but it is up to me to stick with it. Now my hubby has always struggled with his weight so it's weird keeping him with actual serving size and him monitoring my intake. 

[lenny]

On 2/8/2017 at 10:35 PM, jcbrown said:

I've only made it to month 8 and I'm not sure how much more I can take. She is such a whiny whiner who whines and I am completely sympathetic to he siblings.  That said, I thought it was quite revelatory hen she turned so childlike in response to her brother's praise when she leaned she had lost the requisite 50 pounds.  She definitely needs therapy to figure out how to grow up. 

Toward the beginning I was wondering if her emotional development stopped when she was raped but that was sixteen and her maturity level seems more like a very young child. All that pouting and the poor, poor me voice reminds me more of my kids when they were 4 or 5 and they didn't get their way. Therapy and lots of it will do more for her than any surgery will. Granted her family is unlikeable but then Erica is too. She created her problem and now wants someone to wave a magic wand and fix her with no effort on her part. She was actually angry when she returned home after the first trip to Houston to find her niece had taken food out of the house. 

[auntjess]

4 hours ago, lenny said:

Granted her family is unlikeable but then Erica is too.

I recorded this again, and rewatched it, just to settle the "who's worse" question, and came to the same conclusion as you did.
I'd start to lean one way, and then the other party would do something really bitchy.
But when you play the "my life or your boat" card, you've gone too far.
Because Erica, you could actually eat less in Oregon, or wherever you're from, and the trip would be easier.
Confession time.  I also watched because I was thinking she was the one who broke the hotel bed.  Who did do that?
 

[fonfereksglen]

11 minutes ago, auntjess said:

I recorded this again, and rewatched it, just to settle the "who's worse" question, and came to the same conclusion as you did.
I'd start to lean one way, and then the other party would do something really bitchy.
But when you play the "my life or your boat" card, you've gone too far.
Because Erica, you could actually eat less in Oregon, or wherever you're from, and the trip would be easier.
Confession time.  I also watched because I was thinking she was the one who broke the hotel bed.  Who did do that?
 

Nicole, the hosed down  on the front porch,  Juggolette,  with the two dead eyed silent little ones?

[lenny]

On 2/22/2017 at 0:07 PM, steff13 said:

I'm re-watching Erica.  Her sister and her BIL as just awful.  I get that they are probably tired of dealing with her, and they need to draw boundaries, but you can do that without being so nasty, I think. 

I agree with you. I get that they're fed up but there's no justification for the way they talk to her. However, if Erica wasn't so passive/aggresive she would sound just like them, it's just that she found a different way to be cruel. The whole dysfunctional family is sad.

[auntjess]

1 hour ago, fonfereksglen said:

Nicole, the hosed down  on the front porch,  Juggolette,  with the two dead eyed silent little ones?

Thanks.  I see it's on this Sunday on Discovery Life, can't remember the time.

[Pringlescan]

On 3/14/2017 at 10:59 PM, Elizabeth9 said:

Agreed- I just think there's a time and a place for the whole "it's a choice" arguement.  Maybe for Pauline or Penny, in month 11, when they've been offered nutritional counseling and therapy and group support and surgery and they're STILL making excuses.  But on day one of treatment?  It reminds me of Intervention- if anyone watches that show.  At the Intervention, no one discusses why the person is an addict or whose fault it is- the goal is just to get them into treatment.  If Now had them in therapy right away, they'd be figuring this stuff out all along.  

A little late in this but here goes,

The problem with eliminating the choice out the why they do this just takes away the responsibility from the individual. Regardless of why they are eating they are making that choice to eat another plate of food. They made a choice to drink 4 - 2 liters of soda a day. They made the choice to wait until they were going to die before giving a care and acting on it. If you watch the show when Dr. Now talks with them and then read about the surgery no doctor will just do the surgery. They make you in some cases going to a shrink and getting evaluated. They also make you lose weight before surgery and keep it off. That shows that you can make the right... choices when you have the surgery. In the end it's all choices that led them to their health issues. You can add all the side acts like mental issues, emotional troubles or anything that can cause people to do things. But at the end of the day those don't matter because you make that choice to keep going with how you're going.  It's a hard fact to understand but it's fact. Anything less is way to simple and letting these people off way to easy. I had to come to terms with what I was doing and I made the choice to fix it. 

[Caoimhe]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:20 AM, Pringlescan said:

A little late in this but here goes,

The problem with eliminating the choice out the why they do this just takes away the responsibility from the individual. Regardless of why they are eating they are making that choice to eat another plate of food. They made a choice to drink 4 - 2 liters of soda a day. They made the choice to wait until they were going to die before giving a care and acting on it. If you watch the show when Dr. Now talks with them and then read about the surgery no doctor will just do the surgery. They make you in some cases going to a shrink and getting evaluated. They also make you lose weight before surgery and keep it off. That shows that you can make the right... choices when you have the surgery. In the end it's all choices that led them to their health issues. You can add all the side acts like mental issues, emotional troubles or anything that can cause people to do things. But at the end of the day those don't matter because you make that choice to keep going with how you're going.  It's a hard fact to understand but it's fact. Anything less is way to simple and letting these people off way to easy. I had to come to terms with what I was doing and I made the choice to fix it. 

We've seen people who get the surgery still fail because they don't make the right choices.  It is a tool and that is all it is, Erica already failed after her first surgery when she was young.  Therapy is another tool that can help some people to make better choices because they find outlets other than eating to deal with their emotions.  I am struggling with that too, and of course it IS hard and you have to make those tough choices over and over again.  One reason I watch this show is to motivate myself to change before I get anywhere near that size, and I had an aunt who was probably 300's to 400's so I know it could happen to me.  Life is much emptier at first without comfort food but it IS possible to make that choice.

Erica is so whiny at the start, I can't imagine being her siblings and getting all the demands for the high levels of support she feels they should be giving.  The family weren't always nice to her but I'm not sure I could find the will to pander to her self-absorption either.  I love Dr. Now's telling her that she is making poor choices and not taking any of her protests that it isn't her fault.  He is right that she wasn't ready for the hard work making better choices, what does she do when she gets home but start ordering by phone to keep eating crap that the family wouldn't bring her.  The look on her face when the nutritionist took out the food to the trash, she nearly looked like she wanted to go to the trash and get it back.  "I can just order more and there is nothing she can do to stop me".  Then there are gems like "I don't eat vegetables".  "Everybody else gets to eat the way they want".  "It's all over television".  "It's a lot harder than I thought it would be".  "There is nothing I can do but wait for death because no one will help me".  Dr. Now was right when he said she had absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

Her attitude takes a long time to improve, but it was nice to see her make progress by the end.

[auntjess]

For some reason, Erica is becoming one of my favorites to re-watch.  I think it's the sibling interaction, and her sense of entitlement.

[aliya]

On 7/21/2017 at 2:02 PM, auntjess said:

For some reason, Erica is becoming one of my favorites to re-watch.  I think it's the sibling interaction, and her sense of entitlement.

I actually paid for this episode on amazon. Good grief, she drives me crazy - the flat affect, the Eeyore voice, the picking at her nails when someone is speaking to her, the "I don't like vegetables, the 'what will I do without chocolate cake everyday,' whew. I will admit to being a terrible person because all I want to do is smack her stupid. 

[auntjess]

Do you get streaming rather than cable? 
Discovery Life is showing a lot of these in repeat, as well as TLC.
I really want to see a follow up.
She was another one who seemed not to know what she was allowed to eat.
I've decided that I dislike Erica and her sister.  Can you imagine family times in that household growing up?