S01.E06: Beautiful Wickedness

[formerlyfreedom]

Dorothy's confrontation with the Wizard brings her closer to discovering the truth about her past. Lucas goes to great lengths to recover his memory, even if it means allying with West. The Wizard enacts his plan with Langwidere to prepare for the battle to come.

 

[Morrigan2575]

Woah, shit just got real. The Wizard killed Anna because he felt betrayed and the poor girl was on his side the whole time.

Glinda has been planning a war for 20 years and keeping Mother South a prisoner to do it. I get the West was angry but I'm still not sure why she sided with The Wizard.

I guess we were all correct in that Mother South was alive but, she's not Karen and I was wrong thinking The Wizard was Dorothy's dad. So Frank was in love with Karen and accidentally (?) killed her boyfriend/husband.

I now get why Frank wanted to stay in Oz and why he outlawed Magic. He was a nobody, overlooked and ignored on Earth and he had potential to be Someone in Oz but, not when there are witches around.

I liked that we got a lot of answers and back stories. I'm really enjoying this show and, it gets better every week.

[Primetimer]

Is it wonderful, or humbug?

View the full article

[Senna]

While I never liked Anna much, if she dies now ... ouch.  That was not what I expected for her character.  Frank obviously has some serious dysfunctions, particularly when it comes to women.  I'm now questioning even more how Karen wound up where she did, both in the sense of apparently attacked/dead? in the present, but also 1) giving Dorothy away when she got back from Oz, and 2) working at a laundromat (I think?) when she was previously a scientist.  But I'm glad we're getting some of the pieces.

Likewise, we've gotten a few more pieces for Lucas, but not the whole picture.  Actually, the fact that the other soldiers apparently saw the witch girls getting away rings a bit weird to me.  Why wouldn't anyone have mentioned that before?  The soldier last week (who was there!) made it sound like no one knew what was in the wagon and Lucas/Roan was just a crazy berserker on a killing spree.  Since I like this show a lot, I'm just going to go ahead and leave it at "The Wizard's soldiers are totally unorganized and terrible at communicating," which is why they left Lucas for dead instead of warning the Wizard and attempting to capture the girls.

I loved the look of West's spell-casting.  (Though it didn't seem at all as painful as she acted like it was going to be.)  The pretty in this show always gets me.

I felt a bit sorry for Lady Ev over her dad, but her voice and, by extension, character is still really grating to me.  This week's mask was also particularly creepy.  I hope they do something more with her than yelling at everybody if she's going to keep appearing.

Poor Tip and poor Jack.  I feel for them both.

[phoenics]

Holy crap that episode was so good.  And shocking.

I love that we finally are getting some real answers.  Dorothy isn't the Wizard's daughter - he's just responsible for her father's death and for her being born in Oz.  And he's so lying - he didn't try to help her dad - He put his hand to the glass to go to Oz instead.  He's got sociopathic tendencies.  He figured out how to get to Oz and took Karen and the other doctor with them.  He thought he could be "somebody" in Oz (since he was so overlooked in our world), but then the chief's wife comes up all smug and practically sings "I'm better than you" while she does magic to upstage him.  If he had had a gun then, she'd probably be dead instead of locked up in the prison of the abject.

My question now is: is she the only one who could control the rock giants?  We see what she did with the little stones to make a little figure that danced - so is she the power to control the rock giants?  Or are there more who can do that?  And what makes the Wizard think she'd help him if he got her out anyway?

But now I'm fascinated with how the Wizard rose to power.  And also with how their arrival brought the beast forever.  Maybe the beast forever is natural disaster (still confused about the suicide ritual part that Anna said was the beast forever possessing them) - them coming in the man-made twister maybe brought rain, and bad weather that eventually ended up with rising waters that flooded everything?

Now - Lucas.  Well I was right that he was guarding the little girl, but not that something possessed her with magic.  So she's simply a witch, along with other girls.  North is raising an army to overthrow the wizard.  So - the possessed women who hung - were they possessed by the Beast Forever or by Glinda?  So who is Mother South?  And how is Lucas connected to Glinda?  I saw the preview for next week - but honestly I'm blocking part of that out because it feels overly cliche.  And soapy.

So has Elizabeth been intentionally misreading the signs to keep the Wizard thrown off (and Anna has been messing that up), or did she really not know?  I'm glad Elizabeth may not be as inaccurate/unknowledgeable as they'd been making her out to be.

I did NOT see The Wizard shooting Anna coming at all.  I think he's some kind of sociopath or psychopath.  And she really was on his side too (she's dumb for that too - he never gave her a real reason to be on his side).

Poor Tip and Jack - that exchange was super hard to watch.  And that doctor who saved Jack is from our world... wow... the plot thickens.  

I also found Sophie killing Lady Ev's dad really hard to watch - she clearly didn't mean any harm - she cannot control her powers.

West telling the Wizard about Glinda's plot seemed weird to me, but Glinda treats her poorly and I think she's doing it out of loyalty to East, who seemed to be against Glinda.

Are there any good witches at all?  Maybe South is good and Glinda has her locked up somewhere.

[thuganomics85]

Ah, so that is why Isabel Lucas is only a guest despite Anna being featured quite prominently in these past episodes!  It was so that The Wizard kills her, and makes it significant since they were close.  Now, the rest will not fuck with him for a second!  It's just ironic that she seemed to be truly on his side.

Thanks to West (and Dorothy), Lucas gets a bit of his memories back.  Seems like he was working for Glinda and was transporting a bunch of young witches, before he was taken out.  And it seems like South is still alive, and I guess a prisoner of Glinda?  And she is trying to take out The Wizard?  Interesting!  And it does make me wonder if the reason Elizabeth has been so off her game is actually part of the plan, so The Wizard will be at a disadvantage.

Lady Ev's dad gets killed by Sophie, so that is no doubt going to cause major problems, and she'll likely be more willing to work with The Wizard now.  Especially since he has Dorothy's gun now.

Tip and Jack's reunion was as awkward as expected.  To be fair, it might take someone a few days to forgive the person who shoved him off a building!

Frank's origin story was a nice diversion.

[cooksdelight]

I was happy to see Toto, I was beginning to get worried about him.

Younger, fatter Frank was not a good look for D'Onofrio. Gave me the creeps.

I'm dying to know what's under Ev's many masks.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

West telling the Wizard about Glinda's plot seemed weird to me, but Glinda treats her poorly and I think she's doing it out of loyalty to East, who seemed to be against Glinda.

West is disgusted with using magic on a large scale because it could not stop the Beast Forever. She's in favor of the Wizard because he lets her keep her brothel and she can do whatever she wants, really. Meanwhile, Glinda is going behind her back and destroying the arrangement. She constantly undermines her.

Edited February 4, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kuther2000]

4 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Ah, so that is why Isabel Lucas is only a guest despite Anna being featured quite prominently in these past episodes!  It was so that The Wizard kills her, and makes it significant since they were close.  Now, the rest will not fuck with him for a second!  It's just ironic that she seemed to be truly on his side.

I noticed again on tonight's episode that Isabel Lucas was still in the guest spot. You are right. It really does explain it now. 

I am sorry I laughed a little at the year 1996. The lead actress does not look twenty. They know they could have pushed that date back a little at least to 1990.

I wonder if Eamonn the leader of the guard  served the royal family of Oz before the Wizard took over and if that will mean anything when we find out who Tip is.

[withanaich]

I find the characterization of the Wizard pretty believable. Reactionary, petty, small man, easily humiliated with a severe inferiority complex under all that blustering? Yeah, him shooting Anna was a bit of a shock in the moment because it happened so suddenly, but once I think about it, not that surprising at all.

28 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So has Elizabeth been intentionally misreading the signs to keep the Wizard thrown off (and Anna has been messing that up), or did she really not know?  I'm glad Elizabeth may not be as inaccurate/unknowledgeable as they'd been making her out to be.

Pretty sure Elizabeth was faking it, and Anna was telling the truth because she wasn't in on the spying ploy (which seems pretty dumb, actually, because it could've made the Wizard suspicious that they weren't in agreement).

Quote

West telling the Wizard about Glinda's plot seemed weird to me, but Glinda treats her poorly and I think she's doing it out of loyalty to East, who seemed to be against Glinda.

I think she feels betrayed and wants to hurt the sister who hurt her with her lack of trust. She was already furious when she suspected Glinda was keeping a secret from her, and this is a doozy.

Quote

And how is Lucas connected to Glinda?  I saw the preview for next week - but honestly I'm blocking part of that out because it feels overly cliche.  And soapy.

Maybe Glinda is Lucas' mother? That's what I'm thinking. It's still incredibly soapy. And creepy. And gross. But it still leaves the door open for him and Dorothy to get together, I guess. The way it was set up in the preview, it looks like Lucas is betraying Dorothy and set her up, when I'm guessing he's under Glinda's thrall (maybe magically?).

[AzureOwl]

35 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Thanks to West (and Dorothy), Lucas gets a bit of his memories back.  Seems like he was working for Glinda and was transporting a bunch of young witches, before he was taken out.  And it seems like South is still alive, and I guess a prisoner of Glinda?  And she is trying to take out The Wizard?  Interesting!  

I don't think Glinda is keeping Mother South prisoner. That would imply that she has been having her own mother impregnated and used as a brood mare multiple times. I would be surprised if the show was willing to turn her that villainous. But that's the Doylist explanation.

The Watsonian explanation boils down to geography.

If Glinda was keeping Mother South prisoner it would make more sense to keep her in Calcedon, Glinda's castle in the North. Breeding the girls in one place and then having to move them to Calcedon risks exactly what happened to Lucas. The fact that the girls needed to be transported from somewhere in the East to Nimbo and then to Calcedon through a portal implies that whatever her situation, Mother South is in a position to resit being taken to Calcedon against her will. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by AzureOwl

[Kuther2000]

I just found out the girl who plays Tip is 26 while Dorothy's actress is 24. Wow!!

[mjc570]

Sorry, but I just don't get how Frank was in any way responsible for Roberto's death - yes, if we believe Frank, he discovered a way to use the vortex to open a passage to Oz, but he certainly didn't suggest that Roberto try the manual override.  If I recall (and I have to rewatch, I probably;y missed quite a bit), he locked the others' computers, so that he could control it.  I assumed he had hacked their program, and was going to control it that way. 

I don't understand why it was ok for Sylvie to kill the old king - if she can't control her power, Dorothy had no business leaving her alone (with Toto).  Yes, he startled her, but he certainly didn't threaten her.  That nice old man's death really bothered me, and I have every sympathy for Princess Ev.  By the way, she looked smashing in her military outfit.

I'm still not a fan of the Dorothy/Lucas relationship, they seem to have no chemistry whatsoever.  I also don't understand why Lucas (shouldn't they be using his actual name at this point, especially if he's trying to recover his memories) was escorting the witchlings, since I thought he was a wizard guard (secretly in the employ of Glinda, but still . . . ).  I also don't get why he was so consumed with guilt. 

My favorite part:  Jack asking Tip, "what does that even mean?"  I've often wished for clearer communication (both in entertainment and real life), so it's nice to see someone say what I was thinking. 

[jhlipton]

I guess we don't have to worry about the white Councilor upstaging the black one any more.

Also, I like West a lot more since she's learned to keep her chin down!

Just now, thuganomics85 said:

And it seems like South is still alive, and I guess a prisoner of Glinda?  And she is trying to take out The Wizard?  Interesting!  

Just now, AzureOwl said:

 The fact that the girls needed to be transported from somewhere in the East to Nimbo and then to Calcedon through a portal implies that whatever her situation, Mother South is in a position to resit being taken to Calcedon against her will. 

Are we sure she's a prisoner?  If the Wizard was trying to kill her, maybe she went into hiding, and started breeding witches for Glinda (that sounds really gross) to strike back at the Wizard.  I'd feel sorry for Frank if he didn't deserve all the enemies he has!

 

Just now, mjc570 said:

Sorry, but I just don't get how Frank was in any way responsible for Roberto's death - yes, if we believe Frank, he discovered a way to use the vortex to open a passage to Oz, but he certainly didn't suggest that Roberto try the manual override.  If I recall (and I have to rewatch, I probably;y missed quite a bit), he locked the others' computers, so that he could control it.  I assumed he had hacked their program, and was going to control it that way. 

He didn't directly cause Roberto's death but he definitely played a part in it.  Roberto wouldn't have been in danger without Frank's meddling.  (Under US law, any homicide in the course of a felony is treated as murder...)

[phoenics]

48 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

 

He didn't directly cause Roberto's death but he definitely played a part in it.  Roberto wouldn't have been in danger without Frank's meddling.  (Under US law, any homicide in the course of a felony is treated as murder...)

And when the other ladies needed his help to get Roberto out of the room to help him, the Wizard ignored them and went to touch the glass/twister.  He wasn't interested in helping Roberto.  He was solely focused on Oz.  He also didn't warn Roberto when he tried to manually shut the storm down.  His actions led to Roberto's death - he may not have intended for Roberto to die, but he indirectly caused it.  And didn't seem all that guilty about it either.  I do think he's a sociopath or something.

[jhlipton]

Just now, phoenics said:

 I do think he's a sociopath or something.

His shooting Anna seems to prove that.

[Camera One]

Wow, Frank is such a pathetic loser.  What was his actual role at the scientific research lab?  It was a surprise to see Jane was also from our world.  I like how she took the leadership role when they first arrived.  The little bits of backstory did a good job of providing a slightly better picture of how things came to be.  

I wasn't too fond of Anna, but she didn't deserve to be killed.

I am pretty frustrated that Dorothy gave Frank her gun.  Why would she?  It would have been better if he just stole it.  

Right now, both sides seem unlikeable, so hopefully, Glinda becomes a bit more personable.  The series is definitely ramping up and getting more gripping and interesting, but it still lacks any sort of humor or "magic".  

[Shorty186]

I wonder if Frank was somehow able to "enhance" his intelligence in Oz because he really didn't seem that smart in the flashbacks - at least very emotionally stunted. Like when they meet the natives (are they the munchkins?) upon first arriving and he tries to approach them even though they've already drawn their weapons. Jane is the one who takes charge and even though they can't understand her, they know she's their leader.

I don't think Anna is going to die. I'm sure magic or science will save her, and she's so idiotic I'm sure she'll forgive the Wizard. Am I the only one who thought the witch at the end was Anna's mother? I think I remember him telling Anna she worked at the brothel, but something about the way Frank looked at her ... plus remembering that could have been another reason why he shot her.

[attica]

I giggled a bit when Frank picked up the Orson Welles book: D'Onofrio once directed himself playing Welles in a short film.

Happy to see the pace pick up.

[sjohnson]

If Anna were really loyal to the Wizard, she would confirm that the others are Glinda's deep cover agents, and tell about things like the new witches. The Wizard had every reason to think Anna was just Glinda's newest, possibly most lethal, ploy. 

The Wizard so far is about defeating the Beast Forever. If, and only if, the threat as presented to us thus far is real, the only hero in this piece thus far is the Wizard! And Glinda is just another villain. Yet, clearly that is not what the show means for us to see.

Frank on the other hand was about becoming a hero, even if it meant sabotaging the experiment so he could take over. I do wonder why the woman simply ignored Frank when he wanted to intervene. And after Roberto was killed, why did she think it was better for two women to go in and try to work the manual override when Roberto wasn't strong enough? Frank's scheme to save the day from his own fake crisis was villainous enough, but the mechanics of the catastrophe that developed hinged on the leader's mistakes. If she'd just said, "Try," to Frank, none of the bad consequences would have happened. Or so it seems at this point. By the way, Frank's guilt over Roberto is a powerful motive for not wanting to return, to the scene of the crime, assuming Frank feels guilt. Despite the plot requiring a hero to fight the Beast Forever (if there is one,) the show so far plainly wants us to see the Wizard as the Big Bad, though. 

Sylvie is too young to be truly responsible. But Dorothy not giving a rat's ass who she kills verges on the monstrous. And "protecting" witches from being seen doesn't make Lucas a decent human being. No doubt we are supposed to imagine that soldiers kill little girls more or less for fun, because that's men. I'm not particularly pro-cop but I'm not altogether certain a band of soldiers should die rather than see a bunch of peculiar girls in a wagon. They died because Glinda wanted her witch program kept secret, so far as I can tell.

Seeing the victim (Jack) reproach the attacker (Tip) was initially satisfying but the way the show promptly made it about Ev's abuse of Jack turned it into a contrast between Tip's true love and Ev's possesiveness. Which makes the scene about how Jack was abusing poor, sweet Tip. 

The show would be better advised to just kill off the Wizard, so the witch heroines can take center stage. The Wizard is too simultaneously evil and incompetent to tolerate. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by sjohnson

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, attica said:

I giggled a bit when Frank picked up the Orson Welles book: D'Onofrio once directed himself playing Welles in a short film.

Happy to see the pace pick up.

He also played Welles in the Tim Burton movie Ed Wood, although he didn't do the voice.

[AzureOwl]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

Sylvie is too young to be truly responsible. But Dorothy not giving a rat's ass who she kills verges on the monstrous. And "protecting" witches from being seen doesn't make Lucas a decent human being. No doubt we are supposed to imagine that soldiers kill little girls more or less for fun, because that's men. I'm not particularly pro-cop but I'm not altogether certain a band of soldiers should die rather than see a bunch of peculiar girls in a wagon. They died because Glinda wanted her witch program kept secret, so far as I can tell.

The soldiers wouldn't just see the girls. As we saw, they don't have enough control to keep their magic contained during an inspection with a bunch of soldiers. They would've been recognized as witches and killed. Or worse, sent to the Prison of the Abject.

And worse of all, from Glinda's partisans' perspective, revealed Mother South continued existence. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I only just noticed are in the credits as "Munja'Kins" and I'm sorry but I refuse

The re-imagining of the Munchkins as some sort of primitive tribal village kind of irks me, simply because there's really no purpose behind it other than to be "clever," just as renaming them "Munja'Kins" feels pointless. In this episode Dorothy was told to go north through "Gilliken Country" which is in fact the northern part of Oz, so why wasn't the name "Gilliken" screwed with? Or Ev, or Toto, or any other name they're borrowing from the books?

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, AzureOwl said:

The soldiers wouldn't just see the girls. As we saw, they don't have enough control to keep their magic contained during an inspection with a bunch of soldiers. They would've been recognized as witches and killed. Or worse, sent to the Prison of the Abject.

And worse of all, from Glinda's partisans' perspective, revealed Mother South continued existence. 

Since they were going to attack anyone who looked into the cart, the onus for the deaths ultimately falls on the people who sent them out on the road. That would be Glinda most of all, but also Lucas.  They would have killed a nosy kid or a confused old man who happened to look in as well.

Personally I assume that all laws requiring the deaths of witches are hideous superstition and bigotry. In this fictional universe, though, it is a question whether laws against witches are truly unjust. (Glinda, East, West and Mombi strongly suggest that not all witches are killed on sight by the Wizard, whatever some forgotten dialogue may suggest.) Maybe the show is equating witches with women but that seems kind of bizarre.

Edited February 4, 2017 by sjohnson

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The re-imagining of the Munchkins as some sort of primitive tribal village kind of irks me, simply because there's really no purpose behind it other than to be "clever," just as renaming them "Munja'Kins" feels pointless. In this episode Dorothy was told to go north through "Gilliken Country" which is in fact the northern part of Oz, so why wasn't the name "Gilliken" screwed with? Or Ev, or Toto, or any other name they're borrowing from the books?

Maybe Munchkin just sounds too precious or associated with cute things?

[Morrigan2575]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Maybe Munchkin just sounds too precious or associated with cute things?

Or just too associated with the movie?  

I don't have a problem with the change it seems a better fit for this universe but, I get why others might not like it.

[Fireball]

Wow what a great episode; we got back stories, questions answered, and forward movement on the plot! Most everything I was going to say has already been said.

However, the little girls are witches right? So I'm left wondering did Glinda, West, and East all start out like these girls? If so how did they go from turn everyone into stone at the drop of a hat to "mostly" in control adults? Or are these little witches a new kind of witches that have been specifically bred to take on the Wizard? Also how exactly is Dorothy supposed to kill Glinda when she stupidly gave the Wizard her gun? I got the impression she was going to use Sylvie, but I'm sure that's not the impression I was supposed to come away with.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Fireball

[mammaM]

RIP Anna? She did die in Ev, and Jane lives there. Maybe we'll get to see a Tin Woman? That would be stepping away from canon but I think that ship has sailed.

Not a bad episode, flashback episodes can go either way. 

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, withanaich said:

I find the characterization of the Wizard pretty believable. Reactionary, petty, small man, easily humiliated with a severe inferiority complex under all that blustering? Yeah, him shooting Anna was a bit of a shock in the moment because it happened so suddenly, but once I think about it, not that surprising at all.

Pretty sure Elizabeth was faking it, and Anna was telling the truth because she wasn't in on the spying ploy (which seems pretty dumb, actually, because it could've made the Wizard suspicious that they weren't in agreement).

I think she feels betrayed and wants to hurt the sister who hurt her with her lack of trust. She was already furious when she suspected Glinda was keeping a secret from her, and this is a doozy.

Maybe Glinda is Lucas' mother? That's what I'm thinking. It's still incredibly soapy. And creepy. And gross. But it still leaves the door open for him and Dorothy to get together, I guess. The way it was set up in the preview, it looks like Lucas is betraying Dorothy and set her up, when I'm guessing he's under Glinda's thrall (maybe magically?).

 

 

Meh - the way Lucas kissed Glinda in the promo did NOT point to him being her son, lol.

But maybe you are right in that it looks like he set Dorothy up - but maybe he's just playing Glinda instead.  No way he'd betray Dorothy.

Edited February 4, 2017 by phoenics

[Notwisconsin]

So is Dorothy the "Beast Forever?" and what about the Fairy Lurleen?

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Fireball said:

Also how exactly is Dorothy supposed to kill Glinda when she stupidly gave the Wizard her gun? I got the impression she was going to use Sophie, but I'm sure that's not the impression I was supposed to come away with.

I believe The Wizard and Dorothy are planning to use Sylvie to turn Glinda to stone. 

[Fireball]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

I believe The Wizard and Dorothy are planning to use Sylvie to turn Glinda to stone. 

Oops I don't know why I typed Sophie.

[Morrigan2575]

Could be Sophie, I'm horrible with names

[cooksdelight]

I thought her name was Cassie, so I'm probably off too. I just think of her as the little Stone Witch.

Now it makes sense that Jane is the local medical expert in Oz. Earlier on, I couldn't figure out how a knowing, well-adjusted woman was among these kooks.

[attica]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Maybe Munchkin just sounds too precious or associated with cute things?

Or associated with donut holes...

[Fireball]

1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

I thought her name was Cassie, so I'm probably off too. I just think of her as the little Stone Witch.

Until this episode I thought of her as the odd girl with shells in her ears. Now I'm not sure what I'll call her; I can't seem to remember her actual name and thinking of her as "The Little Witch" seems wrong. I'll have to call her what you do "Little Stone Witch".

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Could be Sophie, I'm horrible with names

No you're right it's Sylvie.

[jhlipton]

Just now, iMonrey said:

The re-imagining of the Munchkins as some sort of primitive tribal village kind of irks me, simply because there's really no purpose behind it other than to be "clever," just as renaming them "Munja'Kins" feels pointless. In this episode Dorothy was told to go north through "Gilliken Country" which is in fact the northern part of Oz, so why wasn't the name "Gilliken" screwed with? Or Ev, or Toto, or any other name they're borrowing from the books?

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

Or just too associated with the movie?  

I don't have a problem with the change it seems a better fit for this universe but, I get why others might not like it.

I think if they'd used "Munchkins", everyone would have expected to see Little People.  I like the semi-Celt group they have ("Woad, woad, wonderful woad")

 

Just now, mammaM said:

RIP Anna? She did die in Ev, and Jane lives there. Maybe we'll get to see a Tin Woman? That would be stepping away from canon but I think that ship has sailed.

Not a bad episode, flashback episodes can go either way. 

Maybe the ship is a frigate, with 4 can[n]ons???

[tennisgurl]

Holy Backstory Batman! I thought we were going to have to wait forever to get any real answers, but now they're throwing them at us! Its a bit of a risk, but I'm glad they did it. I thought the answers and backstories they gave us worked out well, and made sense with what we have seen so far.

Poor Jack and Tip. They finally find each other, but things are a little awkward, understandably. And they both have a lot going on, what with Tip becoming the assistant/maybe future hooker of a crazy witch, and Jack becoming the indentured servant/pet of a creepy princess, and is also a steampunk cyborg. I hope they can make up soon, somehow.

I liked the backstory of the wizard, that he was a technician who was bitter that he wasn't respected as much as he thought he should be, and had a crush on Dorothy's mom who wasn't into him, and he saw Oz as a chance to be a big badass guy. I don't know if he's a sociopath, but I can see the signs. Poor Anna. She was the only person actually loyal to that asshole, and she gets a bullet for it.

Dorothy and Lucas need to figure out how Sylvie's powers work, and help her control them ASAP. Its not her fault she keeps turning people into stone, she's just a scared little kid who cant control her powers when she's scared, it doesn't seem like she wants to hurt people, but this is still an issue. I didn't waste too much sadness on the two kidnappers last week, but the poor old doddering king didn't deserve to die.

[Mojeaux]

23 hours ago, sjohnson said:

between Tip's true love and Ev's possesiveness. Which makes the scene about how Jack was abusing poor, sweet Tip. 

I personally don’t find Tip sweet at all. Though her confusion at her transformation is understandable, first she blamed Dorothy for rescuing her as she asked (she did come through, yes), and then she started out half-angry with Jack even though she was the one who killed him (mostly) and left him.

I don’t think Jack got enough shots in because Ev butted in. Tip has no room to judge or have Jack’s forgiveness. She nearly killed him. I wouldn’t want to see, touch, or spend time with her, either. I like Jack and his journey. I do not like Tip or hers. (No, I haven’t read the books.)

[slf]

In defense of Tip, she is an abducted child who was held hostage for years during which she was fed a potion that turned her into a boy. Once she was able to escape the magic wore off and she found out she was a girl. That's...alot. Most children would be volatile or extremely introverted after that kind of life. So her struggling is the least surprising thing happening on this show, especially when you factor in her guilt at accidentally pushing Jack off the balcony. That was clearly an accident, as was leaving him when he was still alive (I believe even Jane said they'd initially thought he was dead). He was her only friend, I can only imagine how tremendous the guilt must be. Of course Dorothy didn't deserve any blame for helping Tip escape but we're talking about a kid here. Kid's lash out, even when they haven't had the awful nightmare life Tip's had.

Tip and Jack are the only people in the world who've ever cared about each other. It's a tough thing, what happened between them in Ev but I hope that eventually they're able to reconcile.

Edited February 11, 2017 by slf

[Black Knight]

On 2/4/2017 at 7:11 AM, sjohnson said:

The Wizard so far is about defeating the Beast Forever. If, and only if, the threat as presented to us thus far is real, the only hero in this piece thus far is the Wizard! And Glinda is just another villain. Yet, clearly that is not what the show means for us to see.

Hardly - he was revealed in this episode to be the worst of them all. The only reason the Beast Forever got into Oz before, and is getting into Oz again now, is because Frank refused, and still refuses, to leave Oz. And his refusal to leave Oz is simply because he's a power-hungry man.

East was going to send them all home in order to end the threat of the Beast Forever that Frank had brought down on Oz. The women were more than willing to go. Frank alone refused.

Every death caused by the Beast Forever is on him. If and when Langwidere learns the truth, she will become his implacable enemy, because as she has mentioned multiple times, the Beast Forever devastated her kingdom and killed her mother. She already blames him partially in that he did nothing to help Ev, but when she learns that he brought the Beast Forever down on everyone's heads in the first place?

He's not the only villain of the piece, but he's the worst. He knows what he could do to stop the Beast Forever, but he won't because it would mean going back to his own world where he's a nobody. And the only reason he cares about stopping the Beast Forever in Oz is because he doesn't want to die or become a ruler of a ruined land - in other words, no ruler at all.

On another topic, there's far too much emphasis on the Beast being flesh-and-blood this time around on account of a heart. But lots of non-flesh-and-blood things are said to have a heart. I suspect the word is being taken too literally by Anna, the Wizard, et al.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Black Knight

[cooksdelight]

11 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

because Frank refused, and still refuses, to leave Oz. And his refusal to leave Oz is simply because he's a power-hungry man.

 

That sums it up right there. He's ruler of his own little kingdom and so far he's not going down without a fight.

[AzureOwl]

23 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Personally I assume that all laws requiring the deaths of witches are hideous superstition and bigotry. In this fictional universe, though, it is a question whether laws against witches are truly unjust. (Glinda, East, West and Mombi strongly suggest that not all witches are killed on sight by the Wizard, whatever some forgotten dialogue may suggest.) Maybe the show is equating witches with women but that seems kind of bizarre.

As I understand it, what the Wizard has outlawed is the practice of magic unless specifically sanctioned by him, rather than the fact of being  witch. Which is rather enlightened of him, because in Oz witches have no choice in the matter, being born with their powers.  

The status of witches too young to control their powers was probably considered a moot point since Mother South was dead and no further witches could be born. 

As for what analogy we should draw from the Wizard's ban on magic, I don't think gender issues are the best one. Cultural imperialism is a better one. The Wizard in imposing a Terran worldview of magic as an irrational and dangerous force meant to be superseded by the Wizard's own science.

The Wizard is a foreign colonizer suppressing the local culture and religion.  

[Fireball]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

Hardly - he was revealed in this episode to be the worst of them all. The only reason the Beast Forever got into Oz before, and is getting into Oz again now, is because Frank refused, and still refuses, to leave Oz. And his refusal to leave Oz is simply because he's a power-hungry man.

East was going to send them all home in order to end the threat of the Beast Forever that Frank had brought down on Oz. The women were more than willing to go. Frank alone refused.

Frank really is a piece of work. I'm curious to know why East couldn't just force them all to go home? I mean knock Frank out and then send them home. Seems simple enough; although, maybe they had to go willingly for the spell to work.

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

The only reason the Beast Forever got into Oz before, and is getting into Oz again now, is because Frank refused, and still refuses, to leave Oz. And his refusal to leave Oz is simply because he's a power-hungry man.

East was going to send them all home in order to end the threat of the Beast Forever that Frank had brought down on Oz. The women were more than willing to go. Frank alone refused.

It does not actually make any sense that people coming to Oz brings the Beast Forever. It especially does not make a lick of sense to call it the Beast Forever if it's only been there the one time, after Frank stayed. However could these people talk about interpreting patterns etc. when this dialogue tells us the Beast Forever is of such recent vintage? One appearance is not a pattern! Also, strictly speaking, Frank refused to go before he had a kingdom, and before he had any prospect of having one either. Also, strictly speaking Frank is not the only one who stayed. Also, strictly speaking, Frank has the incentive of not going back because of his guilt in accidentally causing Roberto's death. By the way, the mad scientist shtick the head scientist is doing now in Ev isn't obviously morally superior. 

And, as Fireball points out above, if the problem is really the Wizard, removing his unconscious or dead body would solve that problem. 

So at this point I'm still not convinced the Wizard is actually being shown as the ultimate villain. I will concede the show wants us to think so, in spite of what it's put on screen. 

The notion the Wizard is the big oppressor because he's dissing the witches suggests having the special people born with magic powers be the rulers isn't oppressive. Well, maybe not, it is a fantasy. Also, by that token, Dorothy the murderer by ruse of East, is also a monstrous oppressor of the native religion. Except that what we saw on screen was self-defense. I'll blame Dorothy for Sylvie's murders, but I won't blame call her a murderer of East. 

PS slf thinks Tip accidentally pushed Jack over the rail. My eyes have never convinced me it was accidental. My eyes also tell me she's a woman in her early twenties. I'm not at all sure she's really having that much trouble adjusting. I didn't believe her change of heart about Dorothy either. And to top it all off, I've forgotten how going with West to a brothel ended up meaning she makes a lot of tea. I think it would have made so much more sense for her to have felt relief after Mombi's enchantment was lifted. Why would Mombi's spell have made her gender identity male anyhow?

Edited February 5, 2017 by sjohnson

[HunterHunted]

On 2/5/2017 at 11:34 AM, Black Knight said:

Hardly - he was revealed in this episode to be the worst of them all. The only reason the Beast Forever got into Oz before, and is getting into Oz again now, is because Frank refused, and still refuses, to leave Oz. And his refusal to leave Oz is simply because he's a power-hungry man.

East was going to send them all home in order to end the threat of the Beast Forever that Frank had brought down on Oz. The women were more than willing to go. Frank alone refused.

Every death caused by the Beast Forever is on him. If and when Langwidere learns the truth, she will become his implacable enemy, because as she has mentioned multiple times, the Beast Forever devastated her kingdom and killed her mother. She already blames him partially in that he did nothing to help Ev, but when she learns that he brought the Beast Forever down on everyone's heads in the first place?

He's not the only villain of the piece, but he's the worst. He knows what he could do to stop the Beast Forever, but he won't because it would mean going back to his own world where he's a nobody. And the only reason he cares about stopping the Beast Forever in Oz is because he doesn't want to die or become a ruler of a ruined land - in other words, no ruler at all.

23 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

As I understand it, what the Wizard has outlawed is the practice of magic unless specifically sanctioned by him, rather than the fact of being  witch. Which is rather enlightened of him, because in Oz witches have no choice in the matter, being born with their powers.  

The status of witches too young to control their powers was probably considered a moot point since Mother South was dead and no further witches could be born. 

As for what analogy we should draw from the Wizard's ban on magic, I don't think gender issues are the best one. Cultural imperialism is a better one. The Wizard in imposing a Terran worldview of magic as an irrational and dangerous force meant to be superseded by the Wizard's own science.

The Wizard is a foreign colonizer suppressing the local culture and religion.  

Everything Frank does is self-serving. His ban on magic isn't a Terran world view. Karen and Jane had no issue with magic. Jane sought an audience with East and convinced East to send Jane, Karen, Dorothy, and Frank back. Frank is the only one with issues about magic. Maybe it's driven by his own ego and insecurities or by misogyny, but the only real consistency is that anything that embarrasses or wounds Frank's ego is often marginalized or destroyed. Do we think that that it's a coincidence that the Munji'kin woman who can do magic, Nahara, is in the Prison of the Abject.

I think Frank is cognizant that he's never going to get rid of all magic and that he'll need access to some witches, but all of these other common everyday witches undermine the Wizard's supremacy in mundane ways and need to go. I think he's kept West around because she's broken and sympathetic to his perspective. Glinda, North, offered him an alliance. East seems to have stayed out of his business and is necessary if he needs to flee back to Earth. Frank's perspective on magic is about ego and power. He doesn't trust magic because he doesn't control it. I don't think he's the ultimate villain, but his egomaniacal pettiness is doing no one any good.

Edited February 6, 2017 by HunterHunted

[djinn]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

The only reason the Beast Forever got into Oz before, and is getting into Oz again now, is because Frank refused, and still refuses, to leave Oz. And his refusal to leave Oz is simply because he's a power-hungry man.

I agree with this. Frank wants to be the ultimate dictator. If he could do magic, he would have no problems with magic. In Oz, witches seem to be born with the power to do a few very specific things, so that all power isn't confined to any one witch. East controlled the weather, South the creation of new witches. Perhaps Nahara controlled how the stone giants work. By eliminating anyone who could have power over him, the Wizard created an imbalance in Oz. His killing of Anna is because she knew his secret - that he had never controlled the giants and he was a nobody before. The Beast may be coming back to restore the balance in Oz.

53 minutes ago, AzureOwl said:

The Wizard is a foreign colonizer suppressing the local culture and religion.

Absolutely. 

[slf]

5 hours ago, sjohnson said:

PS slf thinks Tip accidentally pushed Jack over the rail. My eyes have never convinced me it was accidental.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Tip's face when it happened showed shock. She had meant to push him away, not push him to his death. If doing so was her intent I doubt we would've gotten a scene with her climbing over a bridge rail intending to commit suicide.

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My eyes also tell me she's a woman in her early twenties.

That's because the actress playing Tip, like the actor playing Jack, is in her twenties.

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I think it would have made so much more sense for her to have felt relief after Mombi's enchantment was lifted.

Why? She just learned that who she was was a lie. She's spent her entire life with a completely different body- a penis, no breasts, etc. Now she has the opposite. She's not a boy. She wasn't Mombi's kid. She isn't sick. She doesn't have "bad blood." What relief is to be had from finding out you were even more of a prisoner than you'd thought?

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Why would Mombi's spell have made her gender identity male anyhow?

Because Mombi wanted her to be a boy. As for why, well that's getting into spoilers. In short:

Spoiler

Tip is really Ozma, the daughter of the royal family that was killed. The Wizard gave her to Mombi and had her turned into a boy to prevent her from ever becoming the ruler of Oz.

 

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If he could do magic, he would have no problems with magic.

This is an excellent point, @djinn.

Edited February 6, 2017 by slf

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, djinn said:

His killing of Anna is because she knew his secret - that he had never controlled the giants and he was a nobody before. The Beast may be coming back to restore the balance in Oz.

Well, the discovery of Sylvie proved Anna was lying to the Wizard just as much as the rest of Glinda's agents, which showed she was merely lead in executing Glinda's plot. How mere mortals can separate that motive from regret at confiding his secrets to her is a mystery to me. 

Again, I agree that the show clearly means for us to think the Wizard is the awfullest ever. However, given this grimdark Oz, it would seem the only reason the plot hasn't been short circuited by the heroes of Oz (that is, everyone else, except maybe Mombi,) assassinating the true culprit, the Wizard, instead of the maligned Beast Forever is because the producers had to have something for a continuing story line, serialization being required these days. Not really a very satisfying reason, even though the show does still look amazing. 

Even worse, the heroic Beast Forever has essentially laid waste to whole nations, committing mass murders. Making that the series hero seems unduly perverse even for grimdark.

Also, the more they make the Wizard stupid, incompetent, blatantly untrustworthy it becomes very hard to believe he succeeded in conquering anything. No doubt Glinda's Council has mostly run things by manipulating this petty boob.

PS It occurs to me that one of the reasons I'm not so keen on the witches' side is that the immediate action was started by East sending a tornado into Kansas, most likely with the aim of killing K. Chapman. This was apparently something to do with Glinda's previous meeting with East (though that didn't look terribly friendly as I recall.) Going to another world to kill someone just screams malice to my ears.

Edited February 5, 2017 by sjohnson

[djinn]

12 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Well, the discovery of Sylvie proved Anna was lying to the Wizard just as much as the rest of Glinda's agents

Well, it didn't come across that Anna was lying to the Wizard at all. It looks like you and I see what has unfolded so far in the show quite differently, especially with respect to the Wizard. Anyone who is desperate to mass produce guns is not OK in my book. I recall the conversation between Lucas and Dorothy in an earlier episode about a sword vs. a gun. Let's see what the rest of the episodes reveal.