S08.E11: You Made a Choice to Be Good

[formerlyfreedom]

Cade returns to Mystic Falls and presents Damon and Stefan with additional assignments, each with unthinkable consequences. Even with tension growing in their friendship, Caroline and Matt do their best to protect the town’s residents from Cade’s appetite for their souls. Bonnie and Enzo hit the road on a romantic trip, taking the bell with them in hopes to keep it safe.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[bettername2come]

WHY CAN'T BONNIE HAVE NICE THINGS?!

[TigerLynx]

And Bonnie loses again.  Once again, Bonnie was going to put everyone else first, and she loses anyway.  Please let Bonnie kill Stefan and Damon.

I did laugh at Cade saying, "Trying to think of a way to kill the Devil.  How very Damon Salvatore."

[Moxie Cat]

Why can't Bonnie have a happy ending?!?

[SimoneS]

They will bring Enzo back to life, right?

[Dizzychickstar]

Could Enzo's heart be returned to his body? Have Bonnie's powers returned? How badass was Bonnie with that syringe? How annoying was Caroline and Matt's bickering?

I appreciated that twist(with Stefan), but it is beyond frustrating that Bonnie is destroyed once again.

[memememe76]

Yes, mumbly Enzo is dead! Yes! I want Bonnie happy but I want to be happy too. Bonnie happy with Enzo does not make me happy. Now, Bonnie and Matt can come together to kill the Salvatore brothers. Yes!!

[Artsda]

Bonnie's stupid, she knows she always sacrifices and nobody else does and yet she still did it. She never should have gave in.

 I figured the "bucket list" day was not going to end well. 

Loved Matt telling off "vampire life is great" Caroline. When last has she mentioned her kids? Does she even care? Go be a mother instead of just sitting around mooning over Stefan.

[TigerLynx]

I'm disappointed with what they have done with Caroline.  When Katherine killed Caroline, and Caroline became a vampire, she had no idea what was happening to her.  However, once she learned, Caroline tried so hard to be a good vampire, and not kill anyone.  Caroline tried to be there for Bonnie and Tyler, and then the writers threw it away, and made Caroline yet another cheerleader for the Elena, Stefan, Damon must survive at all costs crowd.  Caroline should be with her children, and stop wasting time worrying about idiot Stefan.

For a moment, when Enzo was listening to Bonnie's conversation with Damon, I thought Enzo was going to turn Bonnie into a vampire thinking if they can't be human together then they will be vampires together.  I'm so glad that didn't happen.

Edited February 4, 2017 by TigerLynx

[PTVjones]

So Bonnie got her powers back right? That's what that pulse was at the end?

[Cattitude]

I have to say even with the eye rolling moments that was by far the best episode this season for me. I thought it had a lot of drama and twists. Of course I'm an Enzo fan and thought he and Bonnie were a good couple. I'm sorry he died at the end but it was slightly shocking so kudos for that.

It is sad that Bonnie lost again, but really it was Cade's doing and didn't really have to do with the cure b/c human or vampire Stefan would have killed him either way so her trying to do the right thing or not didn't change what happened.

The reality of what Cade did is that they ALL lost now. Caroline will still be a vampire and Stefan is now human so she can't take the cure from him or he'll die(lose/lose) Bonnie grows old alone b/c Enzo is now dead(lose/lose) and when Elena wakes Damon will have to kill his brother to take the cure or stay a vampire(lose/lose)

Even though it was a little OTT I did like how Matt finally gave holier than thou vampire Caroline so hard truths about vampires with emphasis that she IS one.

Yeah for Damon getting to be Damon again!

Now for the eye rolls:

It is interesting that Matt of all people suddenly has all this secret family power no one ever knew about before. This out of the blue Dorian back story is somehow connected to Cade I'm sure. When Silas needed to take the cure from Katherine he had to drink "all of her blood every last drop" now a 1/2 surge full is enough?

I actually think Cade is a decent villain ...remind me why we wasted 10 episodes on those stupid sirens!

Here to hoping the last 5 are at least this good.

[cynic]

48 minutes ago, Cattitude said:

.....and when Elena wakes Damon will have to kill his brother to take the cure or stay a vampire(lose/lose)....

Assuming Bonnie lives to a ripe old age, Elena won't wake up until Stefan is really old and close to death if not already dead. It might work out for Damon and Elena.

I've only been half-watching this season, but I actually thought this was a pretty good episode. It makes me hopeful that the show might wrap up decently. But yeah, I echo everyone else - why can't Bonnie ever be allowed to be happy?!?

[immortalfrieza]

MY eye roll moments of the episode were largely caused by Matt. All of his whining about how being a vampire is basically death falls INCREDIBLY flat when both shows in this universe have consistently shown that being a vampire is great. Being a vampire has only 5 particular downsides:

1. You can't enter a human owned house without being invited in... countless ways around THAT particular restriction including one demonstrated in this particular episode.

2. You can't walk around in daylight or you'll burn to death... except every vampire and his mother has a witch on call to magic up a daylight ring which makes that particular problem all but nonexistent.

3. A need to regularly drink blood that threatens to drive you to murder... except that the bloodlust been shown to be easily controllable countless times and one can even survive off of blood bags, animal blood, and even just having a little self control. Even Stefan controls his bloodlust easily enough 90% of the time unless he's on a Ripper binge in the other 10% and the vampire characters aside from him haven't even mentioned the possibility of going blood crazy for a long time if they didn't get a handle on it practically right out of the gate like Caroline did.

4. A weakness to Vervain, which causes a vampire immense pain if touched or eaten and prevents compulsion... that is simple to build up an all but complete immunity to in much the same way as poison immunity.

5. If you've got cancer, it'll make it way worse than it could ever be while human without killing you... which is the only genuine downside I can think of.

In exchange, the vampire gets immortality provided they aren't killed in very specific ways, which is worth it on it's own, super strength, super speed, immunity to any form of death except for ringless sun exposure, a stake to the heart, immolation, and decapitation or heart removal, the ability to force normal people to do whatever you want as long as they aren't on Vervain, heightened emotions (bad and good, but the bad are easy enough to avoid) the ability to stop any negative emotions whenever you want to (with the consequence of becoming psychotic but that's YOUR choice)... really, vampires of the TVD universe have it made, the only vampires I can think of in any universe it better than them is the Twilight vampires. It gets really tiresome after awhile to see all these vampires treating their existence like it's a curse when the reality is it's way WAY better than being a human in basically every way.

If humanity as a whole were aware of vampires, the entirety of what it's like to be them, and that Mystic Falls was a good place to find some humanity would quickly become an endangered if not extinct species not from any war between the vampire and humans killing them, (though yeah, the humans would suffer catastrophic losses in an actual war between the two) but from all but a very very select few of humanity across the planet that wouldn't flock straight to Mystic Falls the first chance they got to get the Mystic Falls gang and the resulting vampires to turn them. The problem there would eventually just become that they'd have to start breeding animals like crazy for the specific purpose of having enough blood for everybody and somehow getting billions of daylight rings. In fact, the witches (who wouldn't turn because they'd lose their powers which can give them most of the perks of being a vampire with the right spells anyway and SOMEBODY has to make all those daylight rings!) and werewolves (who only wouldn't turn because it would kill them) would probably be the only humans left on the entire planet.

This is why I'm so SICK of hearing human characters like Matt this episode treat vampirism like it isn't the best thing they could possibly hope for despite how readily apparent it is.

Edited February 4, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[cbosdell]

I'm starting to feel like this season is a trainwreck where I can't stop watching. I didn't even used to like Enzo but Stefan killing him might have pushed him over the edge into irredeemable territory for me.  I can't really expect him to stay dead though any more than I believed he would be killed so easily after everything else he has been through.

[HunterHunted]

I feel like straight up stealing someone's house probably should not have been enough to counteract the invitation magic. I don't think that should have worked. Even when vampires compel humans, the human lacks the intention, but there is always an overt act (either saying it or signing the deed over). Stefan just compelling the real estate agent feels like it doesn't work with rules we've been given. Bonnie neither has the intention nor has made any act that indicates that she wants to transfer the property. The real estate agent can't possibly notarize her own real property transactions. In the thousands of years of vampires, no one had ever thought of fraud?!?! Whatever. CANCELLED!!!!!

Edited February 4, 2017 by HunterHunted

[steelyis]

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

For a moment, when Enzo was listening to Bonnie's conversation with Damon, I thought Enzo was going to turn Bonnie into a vampire thinking if they can't be human together then they will be vampires together.  I'm so glad that didn't happen.

Me too and me too.

I think I like Cade. He's less mercurial than most big-bads the show's had, but I appreciate how uncomplicated his goals are and how straight forwardly he goes about accomplishing them. I do wonder why he didn't kill Bonnie after he got the info, that would have saved a lot of time.

I was annoyed by Matt. Sometimes he can be extra when he goes on one of his anti supernatural rants. It gets tiresome real fast. Like, I get it, you hate vampires.

Aw, Bonnie. I still feel Bonnie/Enzo suffered because of their lack of proper build-up, but KG and MM are so damn pretty together, and they never slacked selling the pairing, so I felt bad when Stefan killed Enzo.

I was delighted but not surprised, because this show loves repeating itself (Elena basically did the same thing to Katherine), that Bonnie gave Stefan the cure. She kind of/sort of killed him? And put a target on his back.

Most of the episode was by-the-numbers and predictable, but it did effectively make me excited to see the fall-out.

I give the show fifty-fifty odds they'll make it pay off or utterly fuck it up.

[GaT]

I can't believe they finally killed off Enzo, I've been waiting for this since his character was introduced.

This episode actually had a few good moments, it makes a nice change. I thought the thing with Stefan getting the house was good, Bonnie stabbing Stefan with the cure was good, & yes, Enzo dying was good. I think there's a reason why they killed him off but since it's partially a spoiler I'll put it in spoiler tags.

Spoiler

The only way to get Elena back is for Bonnie to die. The reason they killed off Enzo is so that Bonnie & Enzo can finally be together in the afterlife, & Elena can come back & be with Damon.

[IntrovertGal]

So mad that Bonnie is the one who loses and suffers yet again! These writers really have it out for her and it continues to piss me off.

I used to dislike Enzo a lot but really came to enjoy the Bonnie/Enzo relationship (KG and MM had great chemistry) so I hate that they killed him off. Unless Bonnie can bring him back with her new found magic?

I liked that Bonnie was quick on her feet when she stabbed Stefan with the cure but hate that Stefan is the one who gets to be human. He is the one that deserves it least IMO.

Only a few more episodes to go. At this point I can only hope that the writers will somehow create a series finale that won't be a complete trainwreck.

[Aeryn13]

The concept of the cure continues to annoy me, no matter who it goes into or comes out of. 

Man, they telegraphed Enzo being killed so freaking hard. Like, I was semi-spoiled but once you start talking about bucket lists, you are as good as dead. I imagine he somehow comes back or something because there has to be a point to the show breaking Bonnie over and over again. She will be the one who gets a happy ending in the end, right?

When Bonnie screamed over Enzo`s corpse, you saw the same psychic blast they played in the flashback when Cade burned at the stake. Co-incidence? Yeah, right. It would be truly funny if Bonnie created an afterlife world that super-ceded Cade`s. I mean, Quetsiyah`s Other Side totally did so it is possible. It probably means that Bonnie is supposed to be more powerful than Cade, though because his blast only came in death while she is still alive. 

Why is Stefan suddenly so far gone than ever before in the show? He had multiple stints as a ripper but he never snapped like this. Oh, I know why, because it`s the final Season. Shitty reason that.

I know Damon and Caroline have a very dark past and what at best can be described as a complicated relationship but I`ve always loved it when the two characters have scenes conspiring against someone. Damon`s snark just completely bounces off Caroline`s determination and focus. The best such scene was in Season 5? when Caroline thought Stelena were gettting back together and Damon thought they were keeping something about Enzo a secret. Here we got good stuff, too.

For years on the show, I thought they should either give Matt an actual story or write him out but they kept him as superflouus. So now in Season 8, he gets a super-tie-in with the current Big Bad and his family legacy is now mega-important? I`m sorry but this just comes several years too late for me. I stopped caring years ago so this just annoys me.

No to mention again with the pontificating about the evols of supernatural and vampires specifically. Sure, it is all true but 95 % of the freaking show is about the trials and tribulations of horrible, selfish people who happen to be vampires. So to have one characters who whines all the time about basically what the show is about? Shut up. And you betcha I would choose being a vampire over being human on this show.      

[Miles]

5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I feel like straight up stealing someone's house probably should not have been enough to counteract the invitation magic. I don't think that should have worked. Even when vampires compel humans, the human lacks the intention, but there is always an overt act (either saying it or signing the deed over). Stefan just compelling the real estate agent feels like it doesn't work with rules we've been given. Bonnie neither has the intention nor has made any act that indicates that she wants to transfer the property. The real estate agent can't possibly notarize her own real property transactions. In the thousands of years of vampires, no one had ever thought of fraud?!?! Whatever. CANCELLED!!!!!

I agree. So far it was prett clear that the owner of the property has to either die or sign it over for the property to effectively change hands, so a new person could invite a vampire in. Just stealing a property shouldn't work, especially since this would never hold up in court.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I agree. So far it was prett clear that the owner of the property has to either die or sign it over for the property to effectively change hands, so a new person could invite a vampire in. Just stealing a property shouldn't work, especially since this would never hold up in court.

Over on the Originals, they put their property in the name of their human witch sister to be safe but the bad guy "had a guy" in the county clerk`s office who foreclosed it. And voila, everyone could enter. So, apparently shady dealings like this work. That`s why I didn`t have a problem with Stefan`s little stunt either.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But just an episode before, he absolves Damon of murdering Tyler - even though the show clearly indicated that Damon had free will when he did that.

The show was quite confusing during that time but I think they established that Damon was still under Sybil`s control. They intercut the scenes with her sirening and Damon killing Tyler. And one ep later he was confronting her about doing what she wanted, i.e. make sure noone would be in his corner anymore and why would he keep doing stuff that didn`t beenfit him but her. It was like a subconscious compulsion. He only fought back when he had the necklace. But Matt absolved Damon  of nothing, least of all Tyler`s murder. He just basically said "save more towns and we`ll see". Bonnie was the one who absolved Damon of Tyler. And Bonnie wouldn`t spout "vampires are all evil" stuff anymore for obvious reasons. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It's hard for me to get worked up over any characters dying because I know there are only a couple episodes left. If Enzo is truly dead and Bonnie can't revive him or find another way to be with him, I really hope that she doesn't go all Dark Willow because I do not want to see Caroline or Damon giving her a yellow crayon speech.

While I totally get that it sucks for Bonnie to always take one for the team, I didn't understand Damon's need for the cure to be with Elena nor do I understand Enzo's need for it to be with Bonnie (the only person who I truly got wanting the cure was Rebekah - after being a vampire on the run for a thousand years, she just wants to have a normal human life, have kids, and die). Why do Damon and Enzo insist on being human so they can be with their human girlfriends? Can't they just spend the next few decades together as a human/vampire couple and then after the Loves of Their Lives (TM) die, the vampires can just take off their daylight rings, walk outside, and burst into flames?

I guess the one fun thing about Stefan being human now will be him lamenting about how he no longer has vamp speed, vamp hearing, or vamp strength. Will Matt forgive him and let him hang out now that he's human? Is he going to feel emasculated when Caroline has to protect him? Or since Cade has the ability to grant immortality (as he did with Sybil and Selene), will he just make Stefan immortal again so he can keep working for him?

8 hours ago, cbosdell said:

I'm starting to feel like this season is a trainwreck where I can't stop watching. I didn't even used to like Enzo but Stefan killing him might have pushed him over the edge into irredeemable territory for me.  I can't really expect him to stay dead though any more than I believed he would be killed so easily after everything else he has been through.

For me, Stefan killing Enzo isn't any worse than Damon killing Tyler. The characters on this show all do shitty things, yet everyone forgives them repeatedly. Is it supposed to be worse that Stefan killed Enzo because he was the Love of Bonnie's Life (TM)? I mean, Tyler was the former Love of Caroline's Life (TM) so that should count for something!

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The concept of the cure continues to annoy me, no matter who it goes into or comes out of.

I know Damon and Caroline have a very dark past and what at best can be described as a complicated relationship but I`ve always loved it when the two characters have scenes conspiring against someone. Damon`s snark just completely bounces off Caroline`s determination and focus. The best such scene was in Season 5? when Caroline thought Stelena were gettting back together and Damon thought they were keeping something about Enzo a secret. Here we got good stuff, too.

As someone mentioned above, Silas had to drink every last drop of Katherine's blood to get the cure but since it apparently only takes one syringe of Elena's blood, can they just wait a few days and take another syringe of blood from Elena? But yeah, the cure sucks. I hate everything to do with it. I especially hate when the characters ask questions like, "How do we know this is going to work?" Since there isn't a manual with a list of dos and don'ts for the cure, I don't think you can ever know for certain that it will work the way you want it to so stop asking for hypothetical guarantees.

I always liked that scene too and I agree that Damon and Caroline were good together this week too. I also enjoy having different character interactions. This season it's been a lot of Damon/Stefan, Bonnie/Enzo, the stupid sirens/everyone so it was nice to mix it up a little with some Damon/Caroline.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Nope. It's quite clearly stated that Damon and Enzo stopped being under her control once that bell was rang. 

What bell? You mean the tuning fork? It incapacitated Sybil but Damon did still spout the "applesauce penguin" gibberish afterwards so to me it was clear that he wasn`t completey free. 

Quote

For me, Stefan killing Enzo isn't any worse than Damon killing Tyler. The characters on this show all do shitty things, yet everyone forgives them repeatedly.

I agree. One isn`t worse than the other. Stefan just seems to be off the rails in ways I`ve never seen him before, even switched off. And now he will just drown in mountains of guilt. Presumably. I remember him once saying in Season 4 that he wanted to be a human again to be free of all that guilt. Which never made a lick of sense because he still killed all these people regardless. Him getting the cure was so reminscent of Katherine getting it though, I just had to roll my eyes that they pulled that twice.  

[PinkRibbons]

Really Matt? Literally yesterday you almost destroyed the town by ringing that bell under compulsion, and that is entirely Stefan's fault. Mind control, altered state of consciousness what-have-you on Stefan, Stefan's still responsible. I'm not saying Stefan is a blameless angel, but don't be such a hypocrite.

What I find really silly about Stefan getting the cure and that being a disaster is that once upon a time pretty much everyone agreed that the vampire who most needed it was Stefan. He's been a malfunctioning vampire since the beginning, for reasons beyond his control. He didn't choose to be a ripper; his problems with blood are genetic. IIRC, last time he turned off his emotions even Ripper!Stefan knew that they'd come back like they always do, and the guilt is going to suck really hard (which is why he got Caroline murdering with him as revenge for making him flip the switch.) He lived his whole vampire life up to the series starting trying to be as good as he could -- we know that even during one Ripper-binge he tried to self-destruct by jumping in front of a train. Up until recent seasons it seemed to me that he and Rebekah were almost on the same level of wishing they could just live normal human lives. (I think they stopped pushing that aspect of him when they decided it had to be Damon who got the shmoopy human life love story.) Stefan of all people was the one who just wanted to de-power, get a medical degree, settle down and live a normal, good life. He wanted to be Tom Avery.

[TigerLynx]

I agree being a vampire in this universe doesn't seem so bad.  Caroline even has children.  Also, I think Matt's anger is years to late.  This is how Matt should have felt after he found out the truth about Vicki.  Instead Matt was hanging out at the Salvatore mansion during the birthday party Caroline threw for Elena.

Cade might be an interesting villain, but they shouldn't have wasted so much time with the sirens especially since they knew this was the last season.  However, I am very tired of all the supernaturals who are completely unkillable except for the last possible moment when suddenly they can be killed.

Once Damon knew Stefan was heading to where Bonnie and Enzo were, why didn't he call Bonnie back and let her know?  Also, when Enzo got uninvited, Bonnie and Enzo should have taken Elena's body/coffin, and got the hell out of dodge.

[festivus]

Is it wrong that I want Bonnie to join up with Cade and take all these idiots down in a rain of hell-fire? Because that's what I want. I don't want any of them to get a happy ending.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

"Applesauce penguin" happened earlier in the episode when Damon was trying to "recruit" Stefan into helping him duel Enzo - before the actual fight and Alaric showing up with the tuning fork to capture Sybil.

He is also directly acting against Sybil when he makes the deal with Cade. 

I meant at the very end when Damon drove off, after they used the turning fork. He still said "applesauce penguin" and I don`t think it was meant to be sarcastic. And he didn`t act against Sybil, she was the one who brokered the deal for him. Acting against Seline, sure, but not Sybil. So really, all of that doesn`t convince me. I think it was murky but I`m going with show meant to make it clear he (and Enzo) were still under control but couldn`t quite get that point across. At the very least, they did not make the opposite clear to me. Agree to disagree on that.  

Quote

What I find really silly about Stefan getting the cure and that being a disaster is that once upon a time pretty much everyone agreed that the vampire who most needed it was Stefan.

He definitely wanted it but I`m not sure any old vampire would actually handle the transition back to human well. Rebekah wanted it very much also but I think both of them had these romanticized notion of humanity. You lived over a century with super-awesome powers, being downgraded would probably suck hardcore. I`m just waiting for the first time of "you can`t come, you are a liability in a fight, hide behind the sofa" or the first time not healing quickly, being slow, not being able to get out of sticky situations by compulsion, all that. Personally, I would run screaming from that cure if I was a vampire. 

[Snow Fairy]

Please remind me - after a vampire takes the cure, he can't be made vampire again?

[confused]

Is it possible for Stefan to be human? In the pilot episode introduction he says:

Stefan: [voice over] For over a century, I have lived in secret; hiding in the shadows, alone in the world. Until now. I am a vampire. And this is my story.

If he can't turn back to a vampire, is he really a human right now?

[immortalfrieza]

49 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I meant at the very end when Damon drove off, after they used the turning fork. He still said "applesauce penguin" and I don`t think it was meant to be sarcastic. And he didn`t act against Sybil, she was the one who brokered the deal for him. Acting against Seline, sure, but not Sybil. So really, all of that doesn`t convince me. I think it was murky but I`m going with show meant to make it clear he (and Enzo) were still under control but couldn`t quite get that point across. At the very least, they did not make the opposite clear to me. Agree to disagree on that. 

Enzo was free once the tuning fork was used because he was constantly fighting Sybil's control while Damon gave in almost immediately, they made it quite clear that the difference between them is that Sybil screwed with Damon's mind on both a conscious and subconscious level while she was never able to do more than generally control Enzo. Sybil basically hijacked Damon's desire to do what Elena would approve of even though she's not around into doing what Sybil would approve of. In fact, Damon even outright states repeatedly in the episode after the fork is first used that he actually SHOULD be free to do whatever he wants and doesn't want to do anything he's doing including killing Tyler, but for some reason he's still doing what Sybil would want him to do anyway.

Quote

He definitely wanted it but I`m not sure any old vampire would actually handle the transition back to human well. Rebekah wanted it very much also but I think both of them had these romanticized notion of humanity. You lived over a century with super-awesome powers, being downgraded would probably suck hardcore. I`m just waiting for the first time of "you can`t come, you are a liability in a fight, hide behind the sofa" or the first time not healing quickly, being slow, not being able to get out of sticky situations by compulsion, all that. Personally, I would run screaming from that cure if I was a vampire. 

Me too, and all these vampires lamenting they just want to be normal brings to mind a Cracked article from years ago concerning mocking Buffy for wanting to be normal too, but it could just as easily apply to this show:

Quote

"What's a "normal life" in the Buffy universe? How does she even have a concept of what normal is? Keep in mind, it's not like the demons only reveal themselves to her because she's a slayer, and everyone else gets to spend Saturday at the mall. The demons are real for everyone -- Sunnydale is a war zone. The only difference is that everyone else is helpless and she isn't.

Over seven seasons, we see enough bodies pile up in that town to know that the idea of normalcy doesn't exist for anyone. The show is set in a horrifying universe where every day, "normal" people have to worry about their organs being harvested, getting eviscerated by She-Mantises or being eaten by bullies possessed by demonic hyenas. Well over 10 students and faculty die every season at Sunnydale High School, and 100 percent of those deaths are murder by some supernatural creature. Being "normal" means being a vulnerable hunk of meat just burning time before getting eaten by a demon.

Buffy hasn't sacrificed her life for her powers; her powers are the only thing ensuring that she has a life. She is one of the few people capable of even stepping foot outside her house at night without having to worry about something crawling out of hell and planting eggs in her chest."

That quote would only need to change a few names here and there to fit TVD to a tee, TVD even has male and female Vampire Slayer equivalents. Being ignorant of something doesn't change the fact that it exists or that it can still kill you, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if there was She-Mantises and bullies possessed by demonic hyenas somewhere in the TVD universe and the cast just never runs into them. In any case, "being normal is being a vulnerable hunk of meat just burning time before getting eaten by a demon" applies just as well here as it does in the Buffyverse. 3 people got burned alive and one straight up murdered without even accomplishing anything in this episode alone and that's actually a really low death count for an episode.

Then we get into the fact that the standards for being good enough to avoid going to Hell in the TVD universe for the last 4000 years is so ridiculously strict even counting things you've done by accident or against your will that being immortal is the only way to avoid going to Hell in the TVD universe at all, since as the Sirens could tell you last episode even making a deal with the literal Devil to stay out of Hell isn't enough to stop him from damning you to Hell anyway if he gets the chance. Being "normal" not only means that you're incredibly easy prey it also means you have such a slim chance of avoiding suffering forever for eternity there basically is no chance. If being normal means having a nice loving family with children vamp couples have eternity to find some witch somewhere that could give them a magical vamp and vamp pregnancy and even if really truly that couldn't work there's such a thing as adoption.

Edited February 4, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Goldmoon]

Katherine aged out after she was human.  Won't Stefan's 170+ years catch up with him?

[Snow Fairy]

6 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Katherine aged out after she was human.  Won't Stefan's 170+ years catch up with him?

Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask? Is it still a problem or?

OK, I'm reading wiki...

The Cure when ingested by a doppelgänger converts the blood of the given doppelgänger, causing it to become a liable candidate for a single dose if ingested and if the doppelgänger in question had lived beyond human years, the post-Cure effects would begin to cause him/her to age and eventually die as happened with Katherine Pierce.

So it's only a doppelgänger problem?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Snow Fairy

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Katherine aged out after she was human.  Won't Stefan's 170+ years catch up with him?

She only started aging after Silas sucked the cure out of her. Then her actual age of 500+ started catching up to her. Sucking the cure out of Elena would still have been a question mark for me. Do the sleeping beauty spell years count? In that case, if they had done it like Damon and Elena initially planned, Bonnie had lived out her life of say 70 - 80 years, Elena had woken up and Damon taken the cure from her, then Elena should have aged, too. If they don`t count, she would have fine, only aging a few short years. Well, now it`s moot anyway.

Stefan, however, is toast if anyone takes the cure out of his bloodstream. If not, he can live out a normal human life.   

[Snow Fairy]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Stefan, however, is toast if anyone takes the cure out of his bloodstream. If not, he can live out a normal human life.   

Unless they change the rules. Again.

[Terrafamilia]

I was yelling at Bonnie that she should be moving the body ASAP. Enzo was just ejected from the house so you know that there has got to be some really bad reason for that and it would be best not to waste any time waiting to see what that is. If the coffin was on wheels, move it out to the front or back door, whichever was closest, then get Enzo's help to get the body to the car and vamoose. If the coffin wasn't on wheels, dump the body out onto the floor and then drag it out of the house and go. This could be a matter of life and death, Bonnie, it's no time to be all delicate.

[Aeryn13]

42 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

Unless they change the rules. Again.

Oh my god, don`t remind me. Before this show ends, Stefan is probably gonna be a siphoner-witch-pire-wolf-siren-quadruple-brid.

[Cattitude]

5 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Once Damon knew Stefan was heading to where Bonnie and Enzo were, why didn't he call Bonnie back and let her know?  Also, when Enzo got uninvited, Bonnie and Enzo should have taken Elena's body/coffin, and got the hell out of dodge.

I thought this very same thing. Why were Bonnie and Enzo being so calm about the whole thing. Get Elena's coffin in the truck and scram. Get the cure later.

With all the doppelganger talk I forgot Stefan is a doppelganger too. So can Klaus now use his blood to make new hybrids?(sorry I put that out in the universe again)

The big thing about Stefan being human and having the cure is he will have to disappear out of everyone's life including Caroline's b/c that was the plan for Damon and Elena. If another vampire who wants the cure finds Stefan he's dead.

I thought at the end of season 4 Stefan admitted he was now okay being a vampire and didn't want the cure without Elena, especially now since "the love of his life"[TM] is a vampire.

[miss-vanilla]

Third episode in a row that I have really enjoyed. It is starting feel like we are going to get an ending deserving of the TVD of the past. It wasn't without it's flaws (but re-watching previous seasons without rose tinted glasses highlights this show has always been full of them) but it was still really good.

Agree with those that are creeped out by Bonnie and Enzo wanting to stealth-sneak the cure from Elena without telling anyone. Just not cool. The whole premise just stinks quite frankly and I had thought better of both Bonnie and Enzo. Aside from that I did enjoy Bonnie and Enzo this week. I was truly shocked that Enzo died 9at Stefans hand as well) and I totally felt Bonnie's pain in that moment. Kat Graham really sold that grief, I mean she really really did. However, I think he will be back at some point so I'm not totally grieving yet.

Another twist I wasn't expecting was Stefan getting the cure. OK, I was expecting it but I wasn't expecting it this soon so I was genuinely shocked. TVD hasn't truly surprised me for quite some time so that was good.

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The show was quite confusing during that time but I think they established that Damon was still under Sybil`s control

I agree that the show was confusing at that time and that is because Damon himself  was confused. He verbalised it a few times. He believed he had free will so he could not understand why he was still obeying Sybil. For me I liken it to the sire bond. Tyler believed he had free will but he still ended up doing what Klaus wanted him to do (he bit Caroline against his will). The control is sub-conscious and therefore Damon was not aware of it.  Sybil had to change tactics with Damon because he managed to thwart her plans in 8x03 which were to kill Sarah Nelson (Salvatore).  Damon went against her direct orders through sheer sense of will which was powered by his love for Elena and Stefan. Sybil had to remove those memories and feelings that Damon was hiding from her in his sub-conscious and replace them with herself because  despite having no humanity, Stefan was able to break through to Damon and Damon was able to fight Sybils mind control because he was aware of the mind control. After the memory rewrite, Sybils mind control was more insidious and sub conscious. Damon had no idea she was still controlling him. His free will was an illusion and that is why Sybil was so dangerous. So yes, Damon killing Tyler was not his choice, it was Sybil's, it isn't a retcon it was part of the storytelling and we know that because it is even referenced that Damon found it very difficult to do it and that killing Tyler hurt. Enzo suffered the same fate, he believed that he was out of her control until she telephoned him and she was right back there in his sub-conscious too despite how hard he managed to fight her, ultimately she managed to control him to the point he nearly died  again.

Damon free of mind control, memories back and with his humanity back on is a completely different kettle of fish unless Elena's safety is concerned just as this episode showed. JS.  Damon will not tolerate anyone wishing her harm, not even his brother. 

I found Matt tolerable in this episode and very consistent with what we have seen from him over the years. His anti -vampire stance varies in intensity granted but ultimately he has always been team human. I don't understand his aversion to becoming a vamp, as others have already stated, being a vamp on TVD has very few cons when you weigh it up but never the less, he has always maintained the same stance.  For those who think he forgave Damon in the last episode; he didn't. That was clearly stated, however he was grateful to Damon for a) saving his life b) saving his dad from the guilt of killing his son and c) literally saving the town and all it's inhabitants.   The whole premise of the episode relied on the fact that Matt could NOT forgive Damon for what he had done because if he had given Damon a pass, Stefan's compulsion would have been moot.

 

Dorian and the Maxwell family legacy of contrivancy? well, I will have to run with it I suppose. In an 8 season series arc I suppose we have to take on board that new secrets and information will have to come about in the end. I like Dorian, I have since the moment he arrived on the show but I liked Georgie more. That girl had spunk and fire, but we have what we have and I'm guessing Dorian will somehow be connected to all this on a more personal level.

Reasons as to why Stefan is so terribly terrible this time? Damon spelled it out to us all... this time it's guilt free. Stefan is a ripper with no humanity, hence no guilt manifesting itself in the need to put bodies back together and write their names on walls.   This Stefan is different to any other Stefan we have seen before.

One thing I hate about this episode is Stefan being cured. This is what Stefan has wanted for a very long time so this turn of events feels like Stefan is being rewarded for being so terribly bad.

[jade.black]

Wow. I actually was impressed by this episode. I can't remember the last time the show shocked me with someone's death or had an ending with so many ramifications. 

As much as I enjoyed the shock value, I'm pretty pissed off that they killed Enzo. He and Bonnie were one of the best couples of the whole series, in my opinion. I knew something was going to go wrong for them since they've had so many lovey scenes building up, but I was hoping it would be that Bonnie would have to become a vamp rather than one of them dying. I don't know where they're going with Bonnie's story now and will be pretty annoyed if this is all for her die at the end for Elena's sake.

I'm excited to see the fallout of Stefan being human, but I will miss no-fucks-given Stefan. Him telling Damon that Elena was just a stupid human girl was a highlight.

Well, all of the characters will be back to their genuine selves after this episode. The first half of this season was the absolute worst. At least Damon is fun again. And Cade is a million times better than the awful sirens. I'm actually hoping this show could go out on a high note...? 

[miss-vanilla]

13 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Really Matt? Literally yesterday you almost destroyed the town by ringing that bell under compulsion, and that is entirely Stefan's fault. Mind control, altered state of consciousness what-have-you on Stefan, Stefan's still responsible. I'm not saying Stefan is a blameless angel, but don't be such a hypocrite.

Umm yes it was entirely Stefan's fault. 

Stefan isn't under mind control he is choosing to carry out a deal he made with the devil and this was just a short cut. Everything Stefan is doing right now is as a result of the choices he made. Being Cades servant is a choice, Damon made the same choice.

13 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

we know that even during one Ripper-binge he tried to self-destruct by jumping in front of a train

I don't remember this at all, when was this?

13 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Stefan of all people was the one who just wanted to de-power, get a medical degree, settle down and live a normal, good life. He wanted to be Tom Avery.

Maybe, but we have also been shown that Damon secretly wanted to live as human too.

2 hours ago, doram said:

Bonnie was the one who brought the Cure back from 1994 in the first place after her friends had literally buried her and left her for death. She took the time out of saving her own life (and sanity) to think about her friend's wish for mortality.

If the Cure belongs to anyone it belongs to Bonnie. Two times over, in fact. She brought it back and it was her ancestor who made it in the first place. 

No, once she had gifted that cure it was no longer hers. Bonnie washed her hands of it once she gave it to Damon.

[miss-vanilla]

1 minute ago, doram said:

If Elena is any kind of friend to Bonnie, if they are truly the sisters that the show has always portrayed them to be, this is a non-issue. Elena won't see what Bonnie did as stealing and in the end, that's the only opinion that matters. 

Well how can we know? Elena has no agency right now and that is the point.

What we do know is that Elena took the cure on the premise that Damon would take it with her. Had Damon took that cure as they had planned would Bonnie still have had take back rights? 

With the cure on the table with Elena still a vamp, I have no doubts that Elena would give that cure right back to bonnie/enzo but now? I'm not so sure. Bonnie gave Damon (not Elena mind) the cure, Damon gave the cure to Elena. Elena ONLY took the cure because Damon promised to take it with her. 

[PinkRibbons]

2 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

Umm yes it was entirely Stefan's fault. 

Stefan isn't under mind control he is choosing to carry out a deal he made with the devil and this was just a short cut. Everything Stefan is doing right now is as a result of the choices he made. Being Cades servant is a choice, Damon made the same choice.

So? Matt had a choice to try and forgive Damon instead of ringing the bell. He didn't even try. So it was still Matt that rang that bell, even if he was under compulsion. The argument cuts both ways.

Take a look at the title of this episode. Stefan, with all his faculties in place, made a choice to be good. His deal with Cade was part of that choice, and after that he had to sacrifice a part of himself to make good on that deal and save the twins. Once he turns off his humanity, Stefan's first loyalty is to his intense hunger, and so long as he's murdering and doesn't feel guilty about it, he takes the opportunity to be an asshole and have fun with it. He doesn't -- possibly cannot -- resist his impulses in that state. And that not caring is fundamentally opposite to Stefan's true state. Of all the characters he's the closest to having an entirely split personality without his humanity on. So I see them as two different characters -- Stefan humanity off is not Stefan humanity on, and I don't see the point in blaming the latter for what he did as the former. The latter has always tried to be a good person. Even when he was ripping.

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I don't remember this at all, when was this?

 

During his twenties Ripper binge, when he first met Klaus. He left a journal behind from that time that basically described a split-personally breakdown, where he'd keep losing time and waking up near dead bodies and strange women and basically a lot of carnage that he wouldn't have done if he;d been in his right mind. The only reason that binge ended was Lexi came to town in the nick of time before Stefan, in one of his "lucid" (I guess) periods tried to end the entire cycle by walking in front of a train.

Quote

Maybe, but we have also been shown that Damon secretly wanted to live as human too.

Only, and very specifically only if he could do it with Elena. Stefan spent an entire episode giving him a reality check about what a human life would really mean, and Damon very nearly decided not to take the cure. He only chose it after seeing a happily married old couple and gaining faith that he and Elena would be able to last it out. Damon's state of being is entirely dependent on Elena at this point. If she hadn't wanted to so badly to be human again I don't think Damon would have considered the possibility for himself for a moment.

[immortalfrieza]

1 hour ago, PinkRibbons said:

 

Only, and very specifically only if he could do it with Elena. Stefan spent an entire episode giving him a reality check about what a human life would really mean, and Damon very nearly decided not to take the cure. He only chose it after seeing a happily married old couple and gaining faith that he and Elena would be able to last it out. Damon's state of being is entirely dependent on Elena at this point. If she hadn't wanted to so badly to be human again I don't think Damon would have considered the possibility for himself for a moment.

Yes. Out of all the vampires on the show Damon is the only one with more than 5 minutes of screentime who really seems to actually enjoy being a vampire, in fact Damon revels in it. Even the few moments Damon does lament his existence are largely tied to losing or disappointing people he cares about rather than anything about being a vampire specifically. Elena is the sole reason Damon even considers becoming human, because she wanted it so badly for whatever nonsensical reasons were running around in her little head and he didn't want to go through eternity without her. Shame they didn't know Hell actually existed back then and they were most assuredly going to go there or they probably would have REALLY rethought that decision. Hell, even Elena loved being a vampire until suddenly she didn't anymore, and Caroline took to it like a fish to water while aside from having to deal with the pain of losing her mother and switching off for a bit she didn't have any actual problems with it, but whining about the general state of one's existence even when there's no real reason to is a thing on this show.

Quote

Take a look at the title of this episode. Stefan, with all his faculties in place, made a choice to be good. His deal with Cade was part of that choice, and after that he had to sacrifice a part of himself to make good on that deal and save the twins. Once he turns off his humanity, Stefan's first loyalty is to his intense hunger, and so long as he's murdering and doesn't feel guilty about it, he takes the opportunity to be an asshole and have fun with it. He doesn't -- possibly cannot -- resist his impulses in that state. And that not caring is fundamentally opposite to Stefan's true state. Of all the characters he's the closest to having an entirely split personality without his humanity on. So I see them as two different characters -- Stefan humanity off is not Stefan humanity on, and I don't see the point in blaming the latter for what he did as the former. The latter has always tried to be a good person. Even when he was ripping.

Everybody seems to completely forget that the sole reason Stefan is even doing what he's doing was to save a couple of innocent little girls from eternal servitude to the Devil. He HAS to do what he's doing whether he wants to or not so he turned off his humanity to avoid feeling the guilt involved and so he could go whole hog with it as were the terms of the deal. Humanity off Stefan has always been a completely unhinged psycho that makes Damon on his worst day look like an angel and this is precisely the Stefan Cade wanted to bring about.

Edited February 5, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[paulvdb]

11 hours ago, Cattitude said:

With all the doppelganger talk I forgot Stefan is a doppelganger too. So can Klaus now use his blood to make new hybrids?(sorry I put that out in the universe again)

I don't remember the exact details, but I remember that Tatia's blood was used to make Klaus (and his siblings) vampires. I thought that that meant that he needed blood from the Tatia/Katherine/Elena line of doppelgangers to make hybrids. So Stefan's blood would not work for this purpose.

[miss-vanilla]

7 hours ago, doram said:

According to Bonnie's plan, Damon is still taking the Cure with Elena. No one is being cheated. Elena is not losing anything from this. 

I don't remember this coming up in any of the conversations that Bonnie had with Enzo. Damon did not seem to factor in their plans at all since they weren't even going to tell him. It was Caroline who figured out that Damon could eventually take the cure from Enzo  after it has been passed about a bit. Bonnie even admitted that she was making a selfish decision.

 

7 hours ago, doram said:

Well we can know because the show spent 6 seasons building up these girls's relationships to the point where it's believable that Bonnie would literally repeatedly die several times for Elena, and Elena would be speaking honestly when she claims that she'd do the same for Bonnie in turn.

I have no problem with accepting that Elena would gladly give up the cure in her blood to save her friends lives, none.

I have a problem with Bonnie and Enzo planning on taking the cure from Elena to be even more happy than they already are. Of course that point is moot now since he is dead but just imagine had he already taken the cure? It would have been useless to anyone else and that was the risk they were taking- it was selfish and acknowledged as such.

Now Stefan has it. It's quite the dilemma!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Of all the characters he's the closest to having an entirely split personality without his humanity on. So I see them as two different characters -- Stefan humanity off is not Stefan humanity on,

I don`t. And it always drove me nuts when Stefan referred to "the Ripper" as basically another entity. To me there is just Stefan. Who fundamentally strives to be a good person and I would argue IS a good person. But he also has a dark side and that is repressed so much that when it is allowed to come out during no-humanity periods, it goes way overboard.

I still think that the current version of no-humanity-Stefan is different to the one in Season 3 or the brief stint with Caroline. It`s like he shoved his humanity down deeper than ever before.   

As for the cure, I think Bonnie just thought of Enzo taking it and them living happily together, I don`t believe she really thought beyond that and giving everyone a turn. I do understand the impulse, she has certainly sacrificed enough and Enzo had a shitty enough vamp life so far, I can get them being "us first" for a change.

But I also think her agreeing to the plan was the right call, Damon didn`t ask her to give it back to him but to help fight the devil. It`s in all their interest if they want to still alive. And lets be real, in this world, human or vampire, you seem to go to hell for basically every little thing so Enzo is 100 % hellbound. Making him human just sends him there faster because his expiration date gets more clear. And Bonnie is a high probability. Caroline, Damon and Stefan are other 100 percenters.   

Another reason to be a vampire right now on the show. If you take care of yourself, hell can be a long time away, not just 70 or so years.

I gotta admit when they showed Dorian with the blood-spiked drink and then he watched Damon and that shocked him so much, he came right back to Matt`s line of thinking, I just sniggered. My thought process would have been like: "hm, do I want to be the helpless bloodbag or the one with some power in that scenario? oh my, look at that, glass is empty already." I would have guzzled that down so hard. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Stefan just seems to be off the rails in ways I`ve never seen him before, even switched off. And now he will just drown in mountains of guilt. Presumably. I remember him once saying in Season 4 that he wanted to be a human again to be free of all that guilt. Which never made a lick of sense because he still killed all these people regardless.

Yes, I remember that made no sense to me at the time either. Vampires can turn off their humanity and stop feeling guilty. Humans can't turn off their humanity, so wouldn't a vampire who becomes human again carry all that guilt about the terrible things they did as a vampire?

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He definitely wanted it but I`m not sure any old vampire would actually handle the transition back to human well. Rebekah wanted it very much also but I think both of them had these romanticized notion of humanity. You lived over a century with super-awesome powers, being downgraded would probably suck hardcore. I`m just waiting for the first time of "you can`t come, you are a liability in a fight, hide behind the sofa" or the first time not healing quickly, being slow, not being able to get out of sticky situations by compulsion, all that. Personally, I would run screaming from that cure if I was a vampire. 

Elena wasn't a vampire very long (two years? I know the timeline on this show gets weird, but she became a vampire at the beginning of S4 which was the spring semester of her senior year in high school and she took the cure near the end of S6 which was her second year in college) and even she had some issues once she became human again. Remember when Alaric was giving her Buffy type training sessions so she could fight because she didn't have vamp speed or strength anymore and she wanted to be able to defend herself? I think that's another reason Elena and Damon were going to disappear after he took the cure - not only would other vampires possibly want to take the cure from him, but as two humans living without the protection of their supernatural friends nearby, they would be pretty helpless to defend themselves well. You can have all the vervain, stakes, and crossbows you like but that will just slow down a determined vamp.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Bonnie and Caroline must have discussed the plan since Caroline knew that Enzo was going to take it. 

Sybil told Caroline about it. I`m not even sure Caroline and Bonnie ever really discussed it. Caroline then told it to Damon in this episode.

Even Bonnie having secretely moved Elena was something only Bonnie knew. Well, and Cade after he read her mind. I found that kind of annoying. It reminded me of early Silas who seemed so uber-powerful, you had no idea how anyone would take him down. Cade is worse.  

Like I said, I have no problem with what Bonnie planned but I see no indication she thought of anyone but Enzo getting the cure.