S03.E14: Mad City: The Gentle Art of Making Enemies

[formerlyfreedom]

With Jerome on the loose with one target in mind, Bruce and Alfred's safety is compromised. Meanwhile, Gordon's uncle Frank pays him a visit, and Nygma and Penguin are forced to confront their issues face-to-face, with possible deadly consequences.

 

[Lantern7]

Forgot about Bruce Beta. Silly me.

While I'm good with watching Supergirl "live," I'm going to miss this show. So much mayhem, madness, and blatant disregard to logic. Is it weird that I'm a fan of reality, yet I like watching shit constantly go sideways here?

Anybody else have Nelson Riddle's cliffhanger music blaring with Oswald and Bruce? I can't be the only one.

Damn, Bruce came up big. On the other hand, he believes in heroes in a city where everything skews "chaotic." I mean, the lead guy is Jim Gordon, and he's a mess on a good day.

Call me crazy, but I don't think Oswald is dead. It would be hilarious if he winds up in the same place he landed after the pilot. I'm not sure about Ed going Full Riddler, though.

Late friggin' April?!? It's like Fox doesn't want us back. I bet 24 isn't going to be worth the hype.

[HoodlumSheep]

Asdfghjkl!!!!dhdudhdbdjxjaaaasd!!!!

Where do I begin?

• I love angry Ed! I thought he was great! Please stay angry! I'm so glad he didn't have a change of heart! I was worried, but he stayed angry and shot Penguin in a parallel with penguin/jim in season 1.
• I knew the moment the Court of Owls showed up we'd be seeing Doppel!bruce again! And his creepy musical cue/theme returned with him! One of my favorite pieces of the gotham soundtrack.
• Love the ButchiTabs&Babs team. They make such a good trio. And poor butch wasn't thinking when he knocked out ozzy!
• A+++++++++++++ to David and Cameron for their performances tonight. They were fantastic. TRULY the batman and Joker!
• The set production was amazing! That evil carnival was A+
• LOVED LOVED LOVED the Batman musical cues in the Bruce/Jerome scenes. 
• I actually felt anxious during the cannon scene. Bruce picking the handcuff locks looked really painful.
• Bruce's sad clown make-up :(
• Jerome's face got punched off! Holy smokes! 
• And Jim's evil uncle Frank shows up!

3b looks fantastic! April can't come soon enough!

Edited January 31, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Chaos Theory]

April really?  

I thought this was a great.., winter finale.  A huge step in Bruce becoming Batman.  Realizing that there is a line and how easy it would be to cross it so "whatever" they are doing there needs to be rules.  Bruce big rule "I will not kill."

Althoygh I loved all the Bruce/Jerome scenes I am a little disappointed that there wasn't at least mention that Barbara and Jerome have a history then again the more scenes Barbara has the better.  I love her so much and all her scenes worked for me.  

Edited January 31, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Spartan Girl]

Boy, this show gets gorier every season. Jerome getting his face punched off was gross.

I loved how this episode did an homage to The Killing Joke. Everything Jerome is just awesome, so I'm glad he's going to live to become an undead Joker.

Babs, Tabs, and Butch made the Nygma/Oswald storyline with their snarkiness and Butch telling off Tabs not to cut him down in front of Penguin. Also cracked up at the "You do realize you'll have to carry him now" bit. LMAO.

I doubt if Penguin is really dead. Excited that we are getting the Riddler, costume and all!

Thankfully, Lee was only in two minutes of this episode. Sorry, guys, but I don't like new edgier Lee. It's just the same song with a different tune. Sure her scene with Jerome last week was gold, yet every time she starts griping about Jim killing Mario -- which wouldn't have happened if 1) she hadn't exacerbated the psychotic jealousy by trolling her ex and 2) if she had given Jim the benefit of the doubt when he tried to warn her -- I just roll my eyes. Like seriously, you feel entitled to snipe at him when the city is literally on FIRE and a homicidal maniac is on the loose? Either quit your job or STFU.

Maybe the Court of Owls or the Riddler can put this stupid storyline to bed for good when this show comes back. *crosses fingers*

[Danielg342]

I get the sense, watching this show, that the writers really wanted an "anyone can die" vibe. Why else are most of their stories- the vast majority of them- about killing people and putting major characters in peril?

No doubt Gotham wanted to be edgy, and "anyone can die" series like Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead are de rigeur these days. Hardly surprising that Gotham wants to join that mix.

Problem is, the way this show is set up...you've got too many characters that you just can't sacrifice, and an audience savvy enough to know that no matter what permutation of characters you dredge up, there will always be those characters too central to the plot that they just can't go anywhere.

Which then leads to this...an hour of two very central characters put in the very peril that rings completely false. Why? Well, I've said it before- we know they're going to make it.

Spoiler

Even Ozzie is going to make it. Ben McKenzie stated Robin Lord Taylor figured prominently in the episode he's directing, which is E16. It's possible Ozzie's a ghost or taken over by Clayface...but I'm not counting on it.

I always have to ask the question- how many times can the show go to this well before it realizes it's run out of water? Yes, I guess there's the old "it's the journey not the result", but when those journeys lead to nothing new and the same results, are they worth going on?

I'll give the episode points in that Jerome vs. Bruce was actually kind of fun, especially with Bruce having his clown makeup on. It was also pretty interesting to see a pivotal moment in Bruce's development, the point where he realizes "I do not kill".

The carnival too was pretty interesting, with Jerome using live human targets in his games. Oh, and the producers deserve credit that some of those targets were women and some of those targets were hit...as we would realistically expect in such a situation.

Oh, and Jim punched a face off.

That's about it, though.

The Bullock Meter- 3

Harvey Bullock was around. He did a lot of barking. He also did a lot of line reading tonight...the personality was nowhere tonight. You could have had a robot do Harvey's lines and no one would have noticed. The only time Harvey really "came out" was when he showed his camaraderie with Jim when he realized Jim was bummed about Lee leaving at the end. That was it really.

Episode Grade: C-. It'll get marks for the freaky circus and that Jerome- and Cameron Monaghan- put on a good show. Other than that, this was a tired effort that hardly moved the story along.

[Miss Dee]

I may or may not have stopped knitting my quilt long enough to pound the armrest and scream "BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF HIM, BABY BATMAN!!!!"

I forking love David Mazouz.

[SimoneS]

My Jerome love was tested tonight. I am all for him causing mayhem and destruction, but not hurting my beloved Bruce who is slowly becoming Batman. Because it cannot be said enough, I  love Bruce and Alfred's bond. Also, David Mazouz is so freaking talented. 

 Cameron Monaghan is so good as Jerome. This should be his role for life.

Barbara, Tabitha, and Butch are Team A of Evil. They are hella entertaining. I cracked up when Butch punched Penguin and Tabitha pointed out that he would have to carry him.

[Sakura12]

They kept Jerome alive this time. I loved the Bruce/Jerome scenes. I can see these two being each other's greatest enemies. I loved hearing Bruce make his first rule for Batman. "I will not kill"

This show is very gory and it's on at 7pm for me. 

So it looks like the Riddler is showing up when the show returns. I'm also wondering if Selina will be going to Barbara and Tabaitha's place where Tabs can teach her how to use the whip. 

[CCTC]

15 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Problem is, the way this show is set up...you've got too many characters that you just can't sacrifice, and an audience savvy enough to know that no matter what permutation of characters you dredge up, there will always be those characters too central to the plot that they just can't go anywhere.

Plus they have already undone too many deaths where it has taken out some of the impact when you see someone die.

Unpopular opinion, I think Jerome is kind of tedious.  I think the actor is decent, but the character is a bit repetitive.  I find him much less interesting than Penguin, Riddler, Selina, and Barbara.

[HoodlumSheep]

Now that 3a is over, my quick thoughts on the season so far:

Bit of a mixed bag, imo. Season 3 started out weaker than season 2 and only produced a very small handful of really good episodes (these jerome eps included). At least the Jerome arc helped end the winter season on a strong note. 

The Jerome joker episodes are always so high quality. If they continue to use him in storylines, I hope they don't use him too much. The maniax and this arc prove that he's best when they use him in small doses.

Edited January 31, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Danielg342]

16 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Plus they have already undone too many deaths where it has taken out some of the impact when you see someone die.

Good point. The fact that we've got reanimation means death just doesn't mean anything on this show...unless you're blown up into a pile of meat dust like poor Galavan.

[superloislane]

Now THAT was an episode! I wasn't overly fond of Jerome when he was first in the show but since being brought back he's brilliant. His episodes have really raised the quality of this season.

The Bruce scenes were all great. Bruce looking in the mirror seeing his face covered in clown make-up while he's about to kill someone was such a great moment. And the Bruce/Alfred scene was amazing. Their relationship is my absolute favourite on this show and now the future Batman has his first rule - do not kill. 

I'm also totally amazed that they didn't kill Jerome again. Thank God for that!

[Artsda]

The fun house of mirrors scene was so well done. 

Such a great episode. 

And cliffhangers of fake Bruce & Penguin being shot!

[Miss Dee]

I look forward to his reviews, even though we're pretty much 180 degrees apart on what we like about this show. (Except for Harvey. Everyone loves Harvey.)

I forgot to say that the scene with the house of mirrors where Jerome is following Bruce's voice and then Bruce appears behind him in all the mirrors was such a Batman moment. I may or may not have screamed "BABY BATMAN!!" at that point as well.

And I loved the way Bruce was framed in front of the rising sun as he works his way towards his first rule. Something is dawning, indeed.

I really don't care if it flies in the face of canon - this show would be so much better if they started concentrating on Bruce building the Batman alter-ego and legend right now as a teenager. Forget going off to train with the League of Shadows first; Alfred's enough of a badass to keep up that part of it. Let Bruce learn his lessons on the killing streets of Gotham, one blood drop at a time. He can share screen time with Gordon as it dawns on him he's fighting a losing battle. Not to mention the fun of Gordon trying to chase down the shadowy figure rumored to exist on Gotham streets....

So many stories begin with Batman already established; this is the show's chance to build that legend and show us the story "before" full-on Batman, even as they're building Gordon and the villains. How does Bruce make the decisions for Batman to turn out like he does? That's where this show is fascinating for me.

[Danielg342]

9 hours ago, superloislane said:

Bruce looking in the mirror seeing his face covered in clown make-up while he's about to kill someone was such a great moment.

I got a sense of "if you kill him you will become him" from that scene. That made it even better.

2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I look forward to his reviews, even though we're pretty much 180 degrees apart on what we like about this show. (Except for Harvey. Everyone loves Harvey.)

Thank you. :) I pretty much only watch this for Harvey and Penguin. Plus I still love the concept, even if the show lets me down. I've also been there since the beginning- I want to see it through.

2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

So many stories begin with Batman already established; this is the show's chance to build that legend and show us the story "before" full-on Batman, even as they're building Gordon and the villains. How does Bruce make the decisions for Batman to turn out like he does? That's where this show is fascinating for me.

I would agree. While I like that it doesn't solely focus on that aspect, I don't believe we've seen enough of Bruce's development. The only stories he gets are awkward love triangles with Selina and while the two characters are great together, the storylines have been plumbed for everything they had at this point.

Hopefully Bruce getting his moral code is a start to his ascent and we'll see more Batman development later in S3 and on to S4. If we're getting The Riddler for the first time come April, my hope is that it starts a chain reaction that leads Bruce more into becoming Bats.

[Kathemy]

As I've said a zillion times, the best way to solve the Batman equation for Bruce at this moment is to make him the first Robin.

[Chaos Theory]

Those awkward love stories for Bruce and Selina are a necessity evil though.  They do circle each other for all of time and space but never quite connect and we start to see why.  They just see the world differently.  And they just can't get passed those differences even if they wanted too.  

I do like the beginning of Bruce's moral code.  

However I still think the funniest moment belonged to Barbara when Penguin was talking about how he must love Nygma because he should want him dead putting him through everything but he didn't want revenge and Barabara was like "wait what? This does not compute?"

i thought that was hilarious 

[Traveller519]

Two weeks in a row of a competent Jim Gordon! I can get on board with that! And I'll watch Erin Richards play the hell out of Barbara all day, every day. We've come a long way from the Condo of No Pants.

I had been pretty meh on the Jerome stuff up until now, though I actually liked the subtle references you saw to the growing cult around him after he died the last time and before he came back this time. His last incarnations just felt a little to on the nose. I really thought this segment worked well as painful as the bring him back from the dead story was. I felt like the conversation about him dying and coming back between Harvey and Jim was a nice little wink.

[Winter Rose]

Jerome's face sliding all over the place was a bit much but other than that, I loved everything to do with him and Bruce. These past couple episodes have done a great job showing flashes of the future Batman. Obviously Jerome needs to be used sparingly, especially if he's the Joker because he's Batman's nemesis, not Jim Gordon's, but I'm just glad they didn't kill him this time.

I doubt Penguin's dead. I could see it where he may disappear for a few episodes but I don't think he's disposable. Though I wouldn't mind a break from him, I think there was a missed opportunity for him to cause havoc as the mayor. But I'm glad Ed stuck to his guns, I was worried he'd cave there and not shoot him. I can't wait to see more of the Riddler emerge.

[Kathemy]

This episode did a good job pointing out that the Joker is Bruce's nemesis. Gordon delivering the final punch was a mere afterthought to cover for Bruce beating the hell out of him.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Those awkward love stories for Bruce and Selina are a necessity evil though.  They do circle each other for all of time and space but never quite connect and we start to see why.  They just see the world differently.  And they just can't get passed those differences even if they wanted too.  

Perhaps mileage will vary on this, but I think for this aspect to work, one or two failed attempts was all that was needed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this has been maybe the fourth time we've been through the Selina/Bruce "will they or won't they?" and it's getting repetitive.

I also find it doubly infuriating because it's the only meaty story that Selina gets...surely she has other potential storylines to explore.

Spoiler

Though hopefully with Firefly coming back we may get some movement in that regard.

[Gulftastic]

This show really is the closest I've ever seen to what I've been reading in my comics all these years. The situations and tone are just spot on.

Loved BabyBatman starting to take shape. His escape from the handcuffs and easy beat down of Jerome were great to see. And his moral code gets it's foundation.

Barbara and her legs of wonder make any episode better, and this was already good.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Gulftastic

[paigow]

15 minutes ago, Gulftastic said:

And his moral code gets it's foundation.

Waiting for him to add: "But I don't have to save you"

ETA:

Fortunately, Bat training required watching "Enter The Dragon" repeatedly.

How did the circus have power if the entire grid was knocked out? If it was technically outside Gotham, then GCPD had no jurisdiction....

Edited January 31, 2017 by paigow

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

Perhaps mileage will vary on this, but I think for this aspect to work, one or two failed attempts was all that was needed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this has been maybe the fourth time we've been through the Selina/Bruce "will they or won't they?" and it's getting repetitive.

I also find it doubly infuriating because it's the only meaty story that Selina gets...surely she has other potential storylines to explore.

  Reveal hidden contents

Though hopefully with Firefly coming back we may get some movement in that regard.

Well she did hang out with Fish for awhile and Barbara.  Looking back it all kind of makes sense why she gravitated to these two women.  Selina has always been looking for a mother figure and failing to find one even from her own biological mother.  

You are right though.  She needs a storyline like Bruce's where she defines her moral code or lack of one.   It's about time one starts to develop more from her and get spoken allowed  if only to herself (and therefore the audience):

Edited January 31, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Philbert]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with the majority on this one. I loved just about every bit of it. Yes, it goes waaaaaaaaay over the top. It should. It's about larger than life characters (except Jim who's just....sigh) who act in over the top ways. This episode was so on the mark I don't have that much to say about it except that I really love this incarnation of the Bruce/Alfred relationship. I've largely enjoyed the film versions of these two but David and Sean perfectly embody these characters for me. I've been a fan of Pertwee's for a long time but this is the very best work he's ever done. That final scene between the two of them was absolutely amazing.

 

Oh, and a belated congratulations to the writers for finally figuring out what to do with Barbara. Erin Richards is absolutely nailing it.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Philbert

[immortalfrieza]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

How did the circus have power if the entire grid was knocked out?

Generators most likely, or it's not on the same grid as the rest of the city. Speaking of which, the brain dead moron who decided that the entire city of Gotham should run off of ONE power plant and thus should be plunged into darkness the moment it goes down for any reason should be fired, redundancies exist for situations like this.

Jerome was playing Bruce at the end using his own words from earlier against him and Bruce fell for it hook line and sinker. Instead of killing the guy like any remotely sane person would do, Bruce just decided to beat the crap out of Jerome and walk away, all because of the tired and false "If You Kill Him You Will Be Just Like Him" trope, but that's to be expected with Batman. In fact, the "No Kill" rule would make much much more sense if Bruce DID kill Jerome and then later regretted it, allow him to see what it's like to actually TAKE a life before deciding he never should do so again. Bruce is also incredibly lucky that Jerome decided to then be a moron and stagger out the front door after him instead of using the house of mirrors to get the hell out of there or at least pick his gun up and go after him. In fact, that would have been nice to see, just Bruce and Alfred hugging in relief only to suddenly hear a gunshot and the two of them just start bleeding through a hole in their stomachs with a quip like "I'm pretty sure that's showy enough" just before Jim shows up and takes out Jerome.

@Danielg342 Thanks, now I don't need to start taking bets how long it's going to take before Oswald comes back, since I already know. I just hope they don't have Ed weeping over the decision for the next few episodes until he comes back. It's true, nobody who appears later in the Batman canon (well, except for a bit character mob boss who was only important in the Batman canon because of one event any random crook could've done) dies on this show, which is why I would have greatly preferred it if the show used entirely original characters even if functionally they were all the same as the canon ones and had the canon characters make occasional cameos at best, that way we could have had actual tension exist by having characters who could actually potentially die dealing with the insanity of Gotham city instead of a bunch of basically invincible characters we all know aren't going to die.

Edited February 1, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Danielg342]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Well she did hang out with Fish for awhile and Barbara.  Looking back it all kind of makes sense why she gravitated to these two women.  Selina has always been looking for a mother figure and failing to find one even from her own biological mother.  

You are right though.  She needs a storyline like Bruce's where she defines her moral code or lack of one.   It's about time one starts to develop more from her and get spoken allowed  if only to herself (and therefore the audience):

The cynic in me says the writers lucked out that it worked that way and didn't plan it- Hollywood likes sticking female characters together, even if it doesn't make any sense- but I think you're right. Selina is looking for a mother figure so she'll gravitate toward anyone who could fill that role- as her own mother won't fill it.

It could be one theme for her going forward, where she keeps on trying to bond with different women only for it to fail. The last one could be the one that really brings her dark side out- perhaps because this mentor really did bond with Selina and was killed herself.

19 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Generators most likely, or it's not on the same grid as the rest of the city. Speaking of which, the brain dead moron who decided that the entire city of Gotham should run off of ONE power plant and thus should be plunged into darkness the moment it goes down for any reason should be fired, redundancies exist for situations like this.

...

@Danielg342 Thanks, now I don't need to start taking bets how long it's going to take before Oswald comes back, since I already know. I just hope they don't have Ed weeping over the decision for the next few episodes until he comes back. It's true, nobody who appears later in the Batman canon (well, except for a bit character mob boss who was only important in the Batman canon because of one event any random crook could've done) dies on this show, which is why I would have greatly preferred it if the show used entirely original characters even if functionally they were all the same as the canon ones and had the canon characters make occasional cameos at best, that way we could have had actual tension exist by having characters who could actually potentially die dealing with the insanity of Gotham city instead of a bunch of basically invincible characters we all know aren't going to die.

My guess was that Jerome rerouted the grid to the carnival, which is why it had all the power and Gotham did not.

As for your idea, I think it would have made for a much better show but I fear that FOX likely didn't commission the series without an expectation that some of the main Batman characters would figure prominently. Maybe if Oswald and Edward started the show as kids it would have given the writers more room to create characters that would have actually died, with their deaths helping explain why Ozzie and Eddie get as messed up as they are.

I also think the pieces were there for the show to have a "frenemy" rivalry between Ozzie and Jim, with both acting as proto-Joker and proto-Bats respectively, providing inspiration for the actual figures to rise in their place. Ozzie could have been the guy who took Gotham's crime to the next level, and the fight eventually frustrates Jim to the point where he begins to think Batman isn't such a bad idea.

[LilWharveyGal]

"A puppy?"

Bullock has completely made me forget how much I hated Donal Logue on Vikings and Copper.

[Snookums]

Well, not bad at all! The Joker really commits to his bit.

Jim Gordon managed to not be a dummy for the second week in a row--where am I? What's happening?--and even Lee managed to not drag her dead husband out of his grave more than once, which was a relief,  because the unbreakable rule for Gotham seems to be All Female Characters Who Interact With Jim Become Unlikable Nitwits. Loved the whole nod to actual police procedure with "call the shock troops" thing. I was like, all two of them? How many cops can GCPD have left, at this point?

Baby Batman doing very well, very nice with the staples and hall of mirrors and such. Although, honestly, I get why they don't want to show a teenager actually bare-hands murdering a guy, I get that, but the fact is, leaving Jerome alive (setting aside the whole "death is a temporary inconvenience" thing) is a TERRIBLE IDEA, BRUCE. You've been threatened by enough madmen to know the real thing when you see it, and Jerome is a damn menace to everything and every one. You saw that carnival--people were being straight up slaughtered! You watched a guy eaten by piranhas! If the show's gonna pull that level of cold terror and evil to make sure Bruce stays traumatized enough to become Batman, they've got to quit pulling their punches. 

(also, it was absolutely, positively 1000% BRUCE AND ALFRED'S FAULT that ugly ass owl statue got broken! They had a friggin' week to put it in the Batcave and they just left it sitting on an end table!)

And another thing--from what I've gathered watching this show, every single person's real beef seems not to be with villains or heroes or the cops or rich people or poor people or mysterious weirdos who run around dressed up in owl suits: everyone's problem and burr under their many different saddles seems to be Gotham, itself.

All the cops bitch constantly about it. All the rich people get gunned down/kidnapped regularly in it. All the underworld factions wrestle like starving wolves for control over it. Jerome and his mass of not-so-great unwashed howl constantly that it takes from them, crushes them, keeps them down. I'm starting to wonder if Gotham is located in that damn cornfield from The Twilight Zone.

I mean, these people are aware that other places exist, right? And you can actually pack up and leave and go to these other places? Jim was a soldier in Iraq, Lee left to go "down south," they have a train station, they have cars!  THERE IS AN OUTSIDE! I know not everybody can just up and take off but the way these characters carry on you'd think the Lost writers were running the city.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Snookums

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I want Ivy to come back and do something important.

[thuganomics85]

"I will not kill!"  Somewhere, Zach Snyder is looking up from writing his scene where Batffleck rips a guy's arm off and beats him to death with it, and saying "Wait, what?!"

Great winter finale.  The return of Jerome really lit a fire in these past few episodes.  All of the Jerome/Bruce stuff was fantastic, and I have to think he is officially going to be the this universe's Joker.  There already building up that "hate each other, but they will always be in each other's lives, making it hell for one another" bond.  Cameron Monaghan is having a ball in this role.  At least Jerome is dead this time, and is going back to Arkham.  I'm sure he'll get out someday!

The Bruce/Alfred scenes were nice too.

So, Nygma's plan doesn't completely work, since Oswald doesn't rat him out and proves that he does love him and was willing to unselfishly sacrifice himself.  But now Nygma just shot him and dumped him in the river.  Of course, unless there is some other Oswald Cobblepot out there that is willing to take the Penguin mantle, I have to think he'll somehow survive.  But Nygma is so going to go full-blown bad now.  I can only imagine his reign of terror.

Barbara/Butch/Tabitha continue to be a wacky and entertaining trio.  And they're in charge now, right?!

Jim's uncle is apparently in the Court of Owls and played by James Remar.  Hmm...

Little bummed that there was no Selina.  Then again, they didn't have room for Lucius either.  And where the hell did Ivy go?  And are they even going to find a way to bring back Barnes or Jervis to warrant the actors' regular status?

So, now this show is taking a massive break too.  Not sure what kind of strategy FOX is going for, here.

[darkestboy]

Now that was a great episode. The Bruce and Jerome scenes were brilliantly done and with the latter not being killed, I assume he'll get another arc next season, right?

Bruce making those further steps towards his future continues to be great to watch as well.

Oswald's downfall in this one was pretty interesting. I liked that Nygma realised that Oswald's feelings for him were real, even if it didn't stop from getting his own back though.

Barbara, Tabitha and Butch had some great scenes in this one as well.

More Court of Owls set up with Clone Bruce back and Gordon's uncle in the mix. Should be enough for the remaining episodes of the season, 8/10

[jhlipton]

Just now, immortalfrieza said:

Jerome was playing Bruce at the end using his own words from earlier against him and Bruce fell for it hook line and sinker. Instead of killing the guy like any remotely sane person would do, Bruce just decided to beat the crap out of Jerome and walk away, all because of the tired and false "If You Kill Him You Will Be Just Like Him" trope, but that's to be expected with Batman. In fact, the "No Kill" rule would make much much more sense if Bruce DID kill Jerome and then later regretted it, allow him to see what it's like to actually TAKE a life before deciding he never should do so again.

Just now, Snookums said:

Although, honestly, I get why they don't want to show a teenager actually bare-hands murdering a guy, I get that, but the fact is, leaving Jerome alive (setting aside the whole "death is a temporary inconvenience" thing) is a TERRIBLE IDEA, BRUCE. You've been threatened by enough madmen to know the real thing when you see it, and Jerome is a damn menace to everything and every one. You saw that carnival--people were being straight up slaughtered! You watched a guy eaten by piranhas! If the show's gonna pull that level of cold terror and evil to make sure Bruce stays traumatized enough to become Batman, they've got to quit pulling their punches.

I totally agree.  Last time Gordon faced Jerome (I don't think Bruce got involved with that plot), a whole busload of people were killed.  This time 10 to 20 people were murdered.  Considering that Arkham is a sieve, it doesn't make any sense to keep Jerome alive.  "We struggled for the gun and it went off.  Oops."  Why would it be OK for the GCPD to kill all the minions but not Jerome?

The end of The Killing Joke is stupid to me.  Flat-out, dumb-ass stupid.  Batman should have said "I don't kill.  But for you, I'll make am exception, instead of having a laugh party with a serial-mass murderer.

[immortalfrieza]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I totally agree.  Last time Gordon faced Jerome (I don't think Bruce got involved with that plot), a whole busload of people were killed.  This time 10 to 20 people were murdered.  Considering that Arkham is a sieve, it doesn't make any sense to keep Jerome alive.  "We struggled for the gun and it went off.  Oops."  Why would it be OK for the GCPD to kill all the minions but not Jerome?

The end of The Killing Joke is stupid to me.  Flat-out, dumb-ass stupid.  Batman should have said "I don't kill.  But for you, I'll make am exception, instead of having a laugh party with a serial-mass murderer.

Of course it's flat-out dumb-ass stupid, it always has been. Any sane person even someone who valued life to an absolutely OBSESSIVE degree would kill someone like Jerome the moment the opportunity presented itself, feel no remorse for doing it, be well justified in doing it, and most importantly of all not subsequently begin murdering any random mugger they came across afterward. Doing so would also be a sign of sanity and intelligence, not sign of sociopathy or psychopathy. I had to laugh when Bruce said that to kill Jerome felt so right, because killing him would the right thing to do. The "No Killing Rule" has only ever existed in any media for ONE reason, so that the writers don't have to come up with a new villain every week and can just keep using the same ones over and over. It's the same reason why they brought reanimation into the show, because the writers can't simply come up with new villains as needed and/or make the villains smart enough and badass enough to consistently escape or even win with the heroes barely surviving, they have to just avoid killing them and throw them in jail for them to inevitably escape from or bring them back from the dead instead. it's even more nonsensical when heroes like Gordon kills minions left and right without care but makes an exception for the actual villains and then acts like they have a moral high ground for doing so. Jerome not being killed is symptomatic of nothing more than a failure of writers to be willing to put effort into avoiding repetitiveness. Even the CHARACTERS are hanging a lampshade on the fact that even if Gordon or Bruce had killed Jerome he'd just end up getting brought back to life anyway.

Edited February 2, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Chaos Theory]

Both early CW's Arrow and Netflix Daredevil delve into vigilante killing bad guys thing and both take a somewhat middle ground on it.  Some dudes need a'killin but when a vigalante does that make them a part of the problem and less the solution.  

Both shows take middle ground but I think This incarceration of Bruce Wayne is drawing a line on what makes him different then the bad guys he will one day fight.  What makes him the solution and not the problem.  

[immortalfrieza]

Just now, Chaos Theory said:

Both early CW's Arrow and Netflix Daredevil delve into vigilante killing bad guys thing and both take a somewhat middle ground on it.  Some dudes need a'killin but when a vigalante does that make them a part of the problem and less the solution.  

Both shows take middle ground but I think This incarceration of Bruce Wayne is drawing a line on what makes him different then the bad guys he will one day fight.  What makes him the solution and not the problem.  

That's the thing. "Heroes" like Bruce refusing to kill people like Jerome is exactly what keeps them from being the solution and what makes them the problem. The solution is to remove the possibility of such people ever being able to harm anyone again, and jail and nuthouses like Arkham have proven beyond a doubt that they will NEVER accomplish this, therefore the only way to actually be a part of the solution is to kill them. At best, said "heroes" are treating the whole thing like it's a game and thus are just pretending they are doing something when in reality they are doing precisely nothing, at worst they are just as insane as the people they fight and use the refusal to kill is simply a delusion used as a cover in their own minds for the fact that they in truth support what the villains are doing.

The message Jerome was trying to get across in this episode is that ultimately people will do whatever they want when given the chance regardless of the consequences and/or insanity of their actions and that there's no such thing as heroes, and with Bruce he proved himself right on both counts. Anyone who refuses to kill a person like Jerome when given the chance just like Bruce did here is no hero, they are one step short of being villains themselves a best, and I hope the next time Jerome appears that's what the writers address.

[jhlipton]

Just now, immortalfrieza said:

That's the thing. "Heroes" like Bruce refusing to kill people like Jerome is exactly what keeps them from being the solution and what makes them the problem. The solution is to remove the possibility of such people ever being able to harm anyone again, and jail and nuthouses like Arkham have proven beyond a doubt that they will NEVER accomplish this, therefore the only way to actually be a part of the solution is to kill them.

With a bazooka.  And a leaf blower to scatter the pieces.

[Chaos Theory]

8 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

That's the thing. "Heroes" like Bruce refusing to kill people like Jerome is exactly what keeps them from being the solution and what makes them the problem. The solution is to remove the possibility of such people ever being able to harm anyone again, and jail and nuthouses like Arkham have proven beyond a doubt that they will NEVER accomplish this, therefore the only way to actually be a part of the solution is to kill them. At best, said "heroes" are treating the whole thing like it's a game and thus are just pretending they are doing something when in reality they are doing precisely nothing, at worst they are just as insane as the people they fight and use the refusal to kill is simply a delusion used as a cover in their own minds for the fact that they in truth support what the villains are doing.

The message Jerome was trying to get across in this episode is that ultimately people will do whatever they want when given the chance regardless of the consequences and/or insanity of their actions and that there's no such thing as heroes, and with Bruce he proved himself right on both counts. Anyone who refuses to kill a person like Jerome when given the chance just like Bruce did here is no hero, they are one step short of being villains themselves a best, and I hope the next time Jerome appears that's what the writers address.

So just guys like Jerome or is Bruce gonna go rampaging and snapping the knecks of anyone who commits a crime. Where do you draw the line?  Murders?  Oh hey how about rapists? Let's add drug dealers.  Oh oh....   Pretty soon Bruce will be Dexter in a  Batsuit.  The density on what a vigilante is willing and willing to do is an interesting on because of the repercussions it brings.

[paigow]

Wayne Manor is as porous as the Arrow Lair....The combined Wayne & Queen bank accounts should be able to get better security systems...And Wayne Manor should be on its own power grid.....

[Kathemy]

Doux Reviews: The Gentle Art Of Making Enemies

[Danielg342]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

So just guys like Jerome or is Bruce gonna go rampaging and snapping the knecks of anyone who commits a crime. Where do you draw the line?  Murders?  Oh hey how about rapists? Let's add drug dealers.  Oh oh....   Pretty soon Bruce will be Dexter in a  Batsuit.  The density on what a vigilante is willing and willing to do is an interesting on because of the repercussions it brings.

I believe this inherent conflict is what drives this show and the Batman mythos in general. What is logically right doesn't mean it's morally right, and there's a battle between both in what is really the right course of action.

When it comes to "if you kill him you'll become him", it's important to use it to provide a dividing line. Inherently, I believe that people who are "good" are morally upright and do whatever they can to uphold the law, because this provides a sense of structure. Vengeance breeds vengeance, and go too far within the cycle of violence and it'll catch up to you.

Just ask Jim Gordon about all that and how well it worked out for him.

[immortalfrieza]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

So just guys like Jerome or is Bruce gonna go rampaging and snapping the knecks of anyone who commits a crime. Where do you draw the line?  Murders?  Oh hey how about rapists? Let's add drug dealers.  Oh oh....   Pretty soon Bruce will be Dexter in a  Batsuit.  The density on what a vigilante is willing and willing to do is an interesting on because of the repercussions it brings.

That's something that's almost always brought up to defend the "No Kill Rule's" existence, and it's no less ridiculous than the "No Kill Rule" itself. Again, as I already said, killing someone like Jerome is something a sane person would do without a second thought, but also a sane person wouldn't then start killing any random criminal they come across, any story that tries to justify the existence of the "No Killing Rule" by having a hero break it and then go off the deep end misses the point. Any "hero" that would kill someone who very very clearly deserves to die and can't be stopped any other way like Jerome and then decide that they should just start killing any other criminal only proves that the hero was always insane. There's not a thin line between killing someone like Jerome and killing any random criminal, there's a universe wide gulf between killing someone like Jerome and killing some other murderer or other criminal for the simple fact that those other criminals jail and/or psychiatric treatment might actually WORK while for people like Jerome it is very very demonstratively clear it never would. What works like this episode that try to justify the existence of the "No Killing Rule" miss is that the inability to stop criminals in any other way BUT killing them is what makes the difference. If Bruce were a sane person would be able to kill Jerome in this episode without any hesitation or remorse, then when he becomes Batman go around beating up criminals and throwing them in jail until someone like Jerome showed up again, who he would then proceed to kill once it got obvious there was no other way to stop him, again without hesitation or remorse, then go back to beating up criminals and throwing them in jail, lather, rinse, repeat, until crime finally dropped to a reasonable level in Gotham for a lasting period and Batman could retire. Batman's crusade against crime will NEVER succeed as long as he refuses to kill people like Jerome.

3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I believe this inherent conflict is what drives this show and the Batman mythos in general. What is logically right doesn't mean it's morally right, and there's a battle between both in what is really the right course of action.

Actually it doesn't, that "conflict" is simply a man putting his own ideals above reality and what is objectively the right thing to do. Bruce killing Jerome in this episode would have been both logically AND morally right, trying to have a conflict between what is logically and morally right falls apart when they are one and the same thing. Whenever a story has a hero kill someone like the Joker and then decide they should start killing random criminals and eventually any innocent person who gets in their way it only goes to show how truly horrible the hero has always been, not that the "No Killing Rule" has always been right.

Edited February 2, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[jhlipton]

Just now, Chaos Theory said:

So just guys like Jerome or is Bruce gonna go rampaging and snapping the knecks of anyone who commits a crime. Where do you draw the line?  Murders?  Oh hey how about rapists? Let's add drug dealers.  Oh oh....   Pretty soon Bruce will be Dexter in a  Batsuit.  The density on what a vigilante is willing and willing to do is an interesting on because of the repercussions it brings.

Just now, Danielg342 said:

Inherently, I believe that people who are "good" are morally upright and do whatever they can to uphold the law, because this provides a sense of structure. Vengeance breeds vengeance, and go too far within the cycle of violence and it'll catch up to you.

I'm 100% with @immortalfrieza here.  The cops shot and killed the minions, some of whom may have just been observing.  Does that mean the cop is going to shoot and kill any random criminal?  No, because there are rules - rules that go deeper than "Thou shalt not kill.  The cops killing the minions were "good" because they were upholding the law.  Killing for justice is not the same as killing for vengeance.  

There were two brothers who repeatedly broke out of a SuperMax prison, killing people each time they escaped.  Who here thinks they didn't deserve to be shot and killed on sight?  Jerome is 1000 times worse.

[immortalfrieza]

5 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Killing for justice is not the same as killing for vengeance. 

Agreed, they aren't the same thing and people trying to equate them are just trying to justify the "heroes" doing nothing or rather effectively nothing. The real issue isn't anywhere near as complicated as people trying to justify the "No Kill Rule" are doing, it's far far more simple than killing for justice or vengeance really. It's just killing because there is literally no other way to actually STOP these people from ever hurting anyone ever again, vengeance and justice don't even come into the equation when we're talking about stopping people like Jerome. Hell, in this episode Bruce could've paralyzed Jerome from the neck down for life and he STILL would have found ways to cause chaos for as long as he lives, only permanent death would ever actually stop him, and it would stop a lot of his followers in the bargin. Let's have Jerome break out of Arkham a dozen times over the next season or 2, killing dozens of people at best every single time and then have people honestly say that throwing him in there over and over is actually stopping him. In fact, it would be interesting to see Bruce's reaction to Jerome doing just that and realizing he could have prevented it all simply by doing the right thing.

[jhlipton]

Just now, immortalfrieza said:

{I}'s far far more simple than killing for justice or vengeance really. It's just killing because there is literally no other way to actually STOP these people from ever hurting anyone ever again, vengeance and justice don't even come into the equation when we're talking about stopping people like Jerome. 

Just like the "SuperMax brothers", killing Jerome was the just thing.  If BabyBat doesn't want to get his hands dirty, get Super-Mario-Killer Jim to do the job.

[paigow]

Keaton!Wayne had no problem killing Joker and Penguin. Kilmer!Wayne had no problem killing Harvey / Two Face. Bale!Wayne was not distraught about Talia Al Ghul....Unless this version grows up to be Clooney, he will do his share of killing...

[Danielg342]

First of all, I will point out that at this stage in Bats' development, he's got no reason to think Jerome is an unstoppable menace who must be killed. He's probably too young to appreciate that kind of thing anyway. Plus, this is only Jerome's second kick at the can...at least the characters might be inclined to think the first time was a mistake.

(That and I think Gordon remembers what happened when he killed Galavan. He doesn't want a repeat)

Second of all, in-universe I think the characters believe that Arkham and Blackgate will always work, and believe that whatever issues they may have, they'll eventually correct them. We, the audience, know better (which can be very frustrating), but the characters have yet to catch on to this.

Which I think highlights one of the main problems with "I will not kill"- it's bad writing. The key to any story maintaining its integrity is the effectiveness of its characters, and for an "I will not kill" setting to truly work, you need to have the institutions that would prevent the need to kill to be effective. It does not have to be 100% effective- in fact, I'd say for the Batman mythos, it shouldn't be 100%- but we should at least expect Arkham and the GCPD to be effective at least some of the time. This should mean that, at best, Batman always deals with new criminals and the old villains always get put away, or, at the very least, old criminals spring up sporadically, only doing so by overcoming the changes Arkham made to account for their last escape.

Of course, I understand things like profits and the desires of the next generation of writers meant that the popular villains always found a way to be evil again, but, in doing so they undermined the precarious balance that allowed "I will not kill" to work in the first place. There's only so many times you can con an audience before they suspend their illusion that things are the way the writer wants them, and, over time, the Batman audience just isn't being fooled.

This leads to my last point and that's, intrinsically, I can't agree that logic and morals are or can be one in the same. Morally upright individuals do more than just respect another person, they respect the sanctity of that person. It should go without saying that killing someone is the ultimate form of disrespect you can apply to someone else, because there's no way back from death. By keeping someone alive, you at least respect the possibility that they could rehabilitate, even if you know that's a remote longshot.

More to the point, though- if you've got a setting where a superhero must kill his villains in order to keep the populace safe, it leads to a slippery slope. Unless it is done in really exceptional circumstances- as in "the villain who always escapes and commits murders" is a once in a lifetime proposition- if too many villains are offed in this manner, it leads to the civilians wondering if they now need to kill, or be prepared to kill, in order to keep themselves safe.

This then leads to the point where, for your entire life, you now have to evaluate other people and make decisions about whether or not you need to kill them in order to keep yourself safe- knowing full well that they're doing the same to you. In an environment like that, it only takes one wrong move before everything starts to fall apart, because an argument could then lead to a massacre.

Then you get to the superhero themselves. If the superhero has to rely solely on themselves to maintain order, it can lead to the possibility where they do more than just dispense justice- they become justice. Society then goes on the whims of the "hero", and if they get the wrong hero, the consequences could be severe. In such a case, the hero becomes the dictator, who, if they abuse their power enough, start to make people wonder if the hero really is a "good guy".

Ultimately, you're not left with a setting where there is good vs. evil- you're left with a setting where there are people who are simply "less evil" than others. Everyone must fend for themselves, and, since no two people will ever agree on what is "good", you're left with a society where there cannot be any standard moral code. Your own survival is at the behest of someone else's and your ability to overcome them, and nothing more.

So (if you've read this far) the question is- has Gotham in this show's universe reached the point where the institutions that are supposed to uphold that "universal standard of good" have ultimately failed? We could argue that in the Batverse as a whole this is true, but I think Gotham itself is more open-ended.

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

 I can't agree that logic and morals are or can be one in the same. Morally upright individuals do more than just respect another person, they respect the sanctity of that person. It should go without saying that killing someone is the ultimate form of disrespect you can apply to someone else, because there's no way back from death. By keeping someone alive, you at least respect the possibility that they could rehabilitate, even if you know that's a remote longshot.

More to the point, though- if you've got a setting where a superhero must kill his villains in order to keep the populace safe, it leads to a slippery slope. Unless it is done in really exceptional circumstances- as in "the villain who always escapes and commits murders" is a once in a lifetime proposition- if too many villains are offed in this manner, it leads to the civilians wondering if they now need to kill, or be prepared to kill, in order to keep themselves safe.

This then leads to the point where, for your entire life, you now have to evaluate other people and make decisions about whether or not you need to kill them in order to keep yourself safe- knowing full well that they're doing the same to you. In an environment like that, it only takes one wrong move before everything starts to fall apart, because an argument could then lead to a massacre.

TL;DR -- Cops shouldn't have guns because they can kill someone who might be rehabilitated.

I am a strong opponent of the death penalty, and believe it should only be applied in very specific circumstances.  If someone is a mass-murderer and a serial killer, they get one chance (as Jerome did when sent to Arkham after the Maniax.  Next time he's out, you use every weapon to bring him down.  In our world, Charlwes Manson is never getting out of prison.  But if one year after the Tate-La Bianca murders, he escaped and re-started his "family", do you think anyone would weep if he was shot down like a dog?

There are going to be times when there are questions, legal and moral, whether killing is just.  There are other times when it should be "Well, duh!".

[Danielg342]

37 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

There are going to be times when there are questions, legal and moral, whether killing is just.  There are other times when it should be "Well, duh!".

In principle, I don't disagree.

In practice, the question becomes- where do you draw the line? When is killing justified? No two people are ever going to agree on where that line is, making implementing any "justifiable killing policy" an extreme difficulty. Just look how difficult real life police have in establishing that policy themselves.

Which is why when it's done right, "I will not kill" can be so fascinating, because it allows you to examine where, exactly, is the point of no return in regards to violence. I don't believe it's really all that straightforward- I'm sure there are even those who think The Joker deserves a second chance.