S09.E06: Sandra

[DB in CMH]

Commented this in the other thread - I know somebody who was on camera in epi 903. They filmed that episode in summer of 2015, and we were surprised that it didn't air last season. I'm curious as to when this episode was filmed. Dr. Robin Zazio looks pretty different than in other episodes this season (the hair gone mostly grey), so I'm guessing they filmed this last summer as a cap to the series, and the rest were holdovers from 2015. I think it's done, folks. 

[Court]

It was filmed in Nov 2016 according to one of the interviews.

[funky-rat]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:04 PM, Brooklynista said:

This house is gorgeous.  I wish we could see it once the rehab work is done. 

Sandra was quite the pill. Her "team" consisted of the lobby crew at the local senior center. An old lady w a  walker and anot overweight woman with a cane  is who she calls in for backup??

Yes, God love the woman in the ill-fitting white sweater, who hiked it down as the day went on, and her sassy leggings.  I'm a bigger gal myself, but yeesh.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:04 PM, Boofish said:

Now I want a reality show based on Michael & Eric restoring that house and moving in with their kids

Me three!

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:08 PM, Dianaofthehunt said:

So much of this needless repetitive drama could have been avoided if the off-camera sheriff took her away in his car for the duration. And those useless brothers! What a vast exersize  in frustration. I couldn't muster one atom of feeling for Sandra; the much talked-about 5:00 pm deadline couldn't come soon enough for me. 
I kept wondering how she smelled.

I get the feeling that they're used to "humoring" her.  It showed.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:20 PM, notyrmomma said:

Funny, they didn't strike me as business professionals.  I mean COME ON- they were crying at the end when they were throwing the trash out.  

It was my opinion that they were crying because this whole ordeal was over....finally.  But yet, was it really, because of her continuing legal threats.  That's a lot of emotion.  I'd be crying too - so would Mr. Funky, and he has a black belt in martial arts.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:28 PM, MelissaMinion said:

I agree. The kindest thing would have been to remove her, and have her brothers help in identifying things she'd want to keep. Once they all realized the intervention was failing, continuing to negotiate new deals with her, just added to her stress.

Probably, because she'd probably forgotten about 90% of what was in there, and what you can't see, you don't remember you have.  But that wouldn't be great tv.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:48 PM, theajw said:

Maybe I'm heartless, but I had very little sympathy for Sandra.  I felt sorry for that gorgeous house that is now a mess thanks to her neglect, as well as the dogs in her truck. And I don't think Matt was being "immature" at all.  Heck, he had a lot more patience than I would have had.  I think having the sheriff remove her would have been best for all involved, but then there would not have been a two-hour season (series?) finale.  

$14,000 recouped at an auction?  That's all?  Jeez.  

The market for quirky designer items/antiques is down at the moment, and some of that stuff is just no longer "in fashion" at this time.  Just watch one of the eps that Antiques Roadshow does in the summer when they revisit old shows and give updates on the value of items.  Furniture, art pottery, etc - most of it is down - some of it significantly.  I was surprised she got that much, honestly.

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 1:10 AM, enoughcats said:

Any sympathy I had for her just took a serious hit:  She's gone through 1.9 million in less than ten years. 

From the link

The bank has won several rulings against her claims of fraud in both federal and state courts, arguing successfully earlier this year to the N.C. Court of Appeals that Cowart borrowed $1.9 million on the Fisher Park property 10 years ago in a loan that is “now approximately 67 months past due with a total outstanding debt of more than $2.5 million.”

 

The BSOJ said something about her being involved in some elaborate and convoluted mortgage scheme.  I pictured it to be something like check kiting, where you write a bad check to cover something to buy you some time to raise money, except she's doing it with bank loans.

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 5:19 PM, bethster2000 said:

ETA: Did she really go behind Michael and Eric's backs and attempt some legal shenanigans so she could take back ownership of the house? Did I see and hear that right?

She threatened to take them back to court again - supposedly had dates set up and everything.  I wondered how she afforded an attorney, but one of the articles linked said she was her own attorney, and filed for indigent status to avoid paying legal fees.  It appears the courts have humored her thusfar, but I see that good nature ending abruptly, considering that the county now has someone who owns the house who is cleaning it without having the city clean it out, and will actually be paying taxes, etc.

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:01 AM, Giant Misfit said:

Yup. I was waiting for her to find a "treasured" Big Gulp cup and put that in her "to go" truck. At one point, when she was just frantically putting literal garbage into boxes, I think she was cosplaying Steve Martin in The Jerk: "All I need is this ashtray...and this paddle game...AND THAT'S ALL I NEED! And this...the remote control..."

 

And that's all I need.  OH!  And I NEED THIS!!!! 

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:37 AM, Court said:

While we know she has no legal ground, that doesn't prevent her from continuing legal action. She said she was going to continue to sue them unless she could retrieve her stuff. Everyone agreed and surprise, she changed the rules and is still trying to sue them.

I keep coming back to that mental illness doesn't always excuse lousy behavior.

I would like to see details of the lawsuit against her business.

I too was hoping to see about the suit against her business.  Wondering if it wasn't something about shoddy workmanship, or being paid but not delivering goods, or the goods they specified.

I was drooling over those arm chairs with the mocha fabric and brightly colored flowers.  And the porcelain Bonsai tree.

If I were the new owners,  I wouldn't have changed a thing about the way it was handled.  I know they probably had concerns about being labeled because they kicked an old lady from her home, but this way, the onus is all on Sandra.  It put her in a terrible light, as it should, and made the new owners more human, and shows they really tried to work with her, but just couldn't.

I'm wondering if they're going to turn the house into a B&B, or event space, or if one owns their own business and will operate out of part of it.  That would help defray costs.  That house is too large for 4 people, but still gorgeous.

[buttercupia]

23 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

On 1/24/2017 at 10:01 AM, Giant Misfit said:

"All I need is this ashtray...and this paddle game...AND THAT'S ALL I NEED! And this...the remote control..."

... and this croquet set...that's all  I need.

...and this box of sand...

[PrincessSteel]

Count me in on the love for Luther. I do not watch much reality TV (Project Runway, Intervention and Hoarders) so my opinion is based on this limited sample, but Luther came across as one of the most likeable, REAL people ever featured on such a show. Part of me hopes that he doesn't get his own show--I don't want to discover that he isn't a total sweetheart. Sandra's crew of volunteer helpers and the new owners of the mansion were the embodiment of 'no good deed goes unpunished'. That was some Olympic-caliber denial on Sandra's part.

[CoyoteBlue]

I think if they left Sandra out of it entirely, she would have spent god only knows how long suing them for her precious, precious crap that was thrown away behind her back. This way, it's on film that she was given the opportunity to get what she wanted over those days and she'd SEE everything else leaving and being disposed of. She'd SEE that there's no going back in, no more stalling, no chance of getting things back after because the guys wouldn't have them to sue for. Or if the family did the choosing for her, she'd claim that they stole all her stuff and replaced it with crap. (She already "believes" that thieves broke in and mussed everything up and then left again without stealing anything. Like that crazy doll lady who was convinced that thieves kept breaking in to "steal all the good dolls. I had some really great stuff, guys, honest!")

Man, if she weren't present, I could see her toddling back in the day after the cleanup and freaking out how "no one told me they were throwing away my precious crap!". Hope the boys changed aaaaaall the locks.

[funky-rat]

I'm of two thoughts on her theft thing.  Someone really did break in, but not thieves as you or I would conceive them.  If she really was caring for her father 24/7, then people, possibly kids, could have thought the place abandoned, and snuck in to explore or party, and seeing the place a complete impassable mess, or seeing that someone had been there recently, took off, disturbing just enough for Sandra to notice, but in her mind, she was violated, and it's all their fault.  OR, she's just BSC, and making it all up.  You be the judge.  Either would work.

[dwarmed]

I'm voting BSC.

[enoughcats]

IIRC she wrote that she had been caring for her Father nights and weekends.  At some other location.....maybe.  She could have moved him into Hillside..... 

This story continues to fascinate me.  This house was so close to UNC-G (which was Women's College of the UNC system back in my day), that it would have been very desirable for weekend room rentals for visiting families.

[Court]

For any therapy to work for Sandra, she has to realize she has been problem. Sandra doesn't believe she's a hoarder because all that stuff was for her business.

[shelley1234]

If I was the new owner of the home, I would have sent Sandra packing and pitched everything.  Sorry, not sorry.  

I kinda hope this is the last episode.  I was talking to a co-worker about how this show takes advantage of the plight of some of the contestants often and that I needed to stop watching.  However it's like an accident that you just have to take a look at.  

[Mrsjumbo]

I like it because as the child of semi hoarders it gets me up purging & cleaning.

[MillieSparklepants]

Wow. Watched this one with Mr. Sparklepants last night and we had a lot of mixed feelings.

Luther - loved him! The rest of Sandra's crew was pretty awesome as well, especially that sweet old lady pushing stuff out to the curb on her walker. I can't even!

Michael and Eric were amazingly patient, especially when you consider she'd been squatting there for six months (?) after the sale and had probably put them through legal HELL. 

I don't think Matt needed to apologize for yelling. He was doing a very difficult job and he's human. Everyone cracks sometimes. 

The tunnel reveal seemed kind of contrived and probably would have been cut had the show not needed two hours of run time.

Sandra, Sandra, Sandra - she was a puzzle. I felt sorry for her because she's obviously ill and had been through painful stuff. But she is also savvy enough to be very manipulative and it seemed she'd been doing that for a long time. Her brothers were so totally cowed by her, I wonder if she'd been manipulating them since their childhoods. The last bit on the show said she was living in her Airstream on a friend's property. I can just imagine her junk piles slowly growing around the trailer and then she'll be right back in this same spot when the friend has finally had enough and tries to evict her.

[auntjess]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:04 PM, MelissaMinion said:

Wasn't there another woman who wanted her house back, and the new owners let her participate? She had a lot of law school books, I think. How did that one end?

Yes, that was Michelle on Hoarding: Buried Alive.  At the end of the original episode, they let her buy the house back for what they'd paid, and there was some stipulation that they'd check to see she kept it clean.
Then in 2015 there was an update/Last Chance episode, and she hadn't.  I know I watched it, but I"m not sure what happened,  maybe someone else remembers.
You can google it and find some things, but I don't see much on the update.
 

[3girlsforus]

I know that a few people think that Michael and Eric exploited Sandra by inviting Hoarders and getting free cleanup, but I'm really not seeing what other choice they had here. I think they were in a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. They could have done what they were legally entitled to do, have her removed by the Sheriff and pay someone to chuck everything out. But they really do seem to care about what happened to Sandra. Even if it had nothing to do with not wanting to be the 'bad gay guys' in the new neighborhood, I really think they would have felt horrible about just going that route. I also think they would have ended up in a constant cycle of calling the police to have her removed or arrested for harassment. Even now I'm not convinced she's not going to return to the home claiming she still has stuff there or the house really still belongs to her. 

If they had tried to do what was done on the show without Hoarders, it would have been an incredible nightmare. Can you imagine those guys trying to convince her she needs to get out of the way or make a decision? She seems about 2 seconds from violence at any point and it has already been shown that she is very litigious. If they had so much as laid their hand on her back to help guide her away from a dumpster she would have called the cops and accused them of assault.  I think they went to Hoarders to get the professional help. I don't think for a minute the men expected that with all those cleaners, her family, and a professional mental health person, that it would be so unsuccessful in helping her. They went through an extra year of being patient and then all of this trouble with help for her and she still left with nothing and with no real long term plan or help. It think more than anything this is what caused the incredible emotional breakdown at the end on the part of Michael (I think it was Michael who was crying more). 

I don't think they were exploitative. I think they are victims of no good deed goes unpunished. 

[Galloway Cave]

Eric and Michael have been cleaning up! Click on the forward arrow to see the view from the front walk.

[enoughcats]

Something about a well maintained entrance that says a home is loved.

[Spooneroonie]

I'm shocked that's the same view. It's beautiful!

[3girlsforus]

Question about her design business. She talks a lot about needing to keep things for her business. But never do they tell her she doesn't  have any clients anymore. Did they just choose to avoid that issue or does she really have clients? I can't imagine she could function as a designer. They even show her drawing plans. 

[enoughcats]

Her name does appear on the internet at a bunch of the "business" linking sites.  With one employee, and the address of that house. 

This one would be a real test of the axiom "There's no bad publicity".

[Calamity Jane]

Sandra reminded of a cousin of my dad's who developed dementia in her late seventies.  She went into the bank and tried to do something with one of her accounts which was not allowed, blew up at the teller, the manager, and everybody in the building, accused them all of trying to defraud her, called the police, etc., etc.  Sandra even resembles her, which made it a bit eerie.

Many of the people on this show are so clearly deeply mentally impaired, whether from dementia or whatever disorder hoarding falls under, and it always bothers me that they need sooooo much more help than we see them getting, for the most part.  But it's a function of how our society has chosen to deal with mental illness - if you aren't a present danger to yourself or to others, you can be out in society wreaking infinite havoc.  Many rotate continually through the jails and prisons, which is where they are able to get mental health care.  On the outside, they're too disorganized to follow through with what care is available, so round and round and round they go.  It's expensive and ineffective and ludicrous, but it's how it is by law.  I foresee Sandra starting to cross the line legally soon based on what we saw here, and maybe in jail she will get some help.  Or at least have a place to stay that isn't a van/trailer.  

[poeticlicensed]

I don't think the new owners were trying to exploit Sandra. They had a protracted legal battle with her, yet allowed her to stay in the house even after it was settled. I think they saw that Sandra was not going away, even if the court made it clear that the house was no longer hers. She would continue filing lawsuits and sneaking onto the property. her new home would be the tunnel under the house. THey probably thought that if they extended kindness and it was documented on taped, it might finally sink in. The free clean up was a bonus. 

Sandra's backstory was fascinating and sad. It sounds like she was a force to be reckoned with (in a good way) and created a great business. Then her mental state started to deteriorate, probably coupled with marital problems and money problems. My guess is that her husband left because she became mentally ill and refused help. And they were falling into a bigger money pit daily. Her brother said something about a lawsuit that killed her business. She probably either accepted payment and didn't do work, or she used the money clients had given her to do work on their homes to support herself and her house, rather then buying from vendors. Or buying furniture, etc, from manufacturers and not paying. So her business went belly up. But it also sounded like she owned more than one property and would remortgage each property to pay for the other. That is a rabbit hole that you can't climb out of easily. 

Thinks to the person who found out that her "crew" were homeless. I figured as much. She probably goes to a homeless shelter to eat and befriended some of the people. Or stays there on cold nights. I'm assuming no utilities in the house. NC can get cold in the winter. 

I think the intention or Dr Z and Hoarders was to do an intervention, but it became clear that wasn't going to happen, they weren't going to crack her delusions, so they just should have left her to pile out on the street and then at 4pm, take it away. But they kept following he around and trying to talk to her, which made her more upset. That's the part of reality TV I hate. They have to keep talking to her or they have nothing to film but an old lady and her junk. 

[Chalby]

On January 26, 2017 at 3:18 PM, shelley1234 said:

If I was the new owner of the home, I would have sent Sandra packing and pitched everything.  Sorry, not sorry.  

I kinda hope this is the last episode.  I was talking to a co-worker about how this show takes advantage of the plight of some of the contestants often and that I needed to stop watching.  However it's like an accident that you just have to take a look at.  

I like the show as it makes me re-evaluate any material goods I am attempting to hang onto. Although you may see it as 'taking advantage' I look at it as another choice offered to the people involved. If it weren't for cameras, you can guarantee those people would not be shown any respect and or validation. In the real world they'd be locked out, or have their property condemned, and they'd be living on the street. At least the show offers them after care as well as new lodgings if needed.

[Chalby]

I can't get over how her brothers didn't lose it when she was ignoring the real valuables in favour of dirty rags or purses. 

And lastly, I would have loved for those 2nd hand treasure guys to come through and show us all of her stuff, as well as what they could get for them $$. I was dying to see what was in those 31 rooms. How does anyone have enough junk for 31 rooms, mind boggling! I'd also be furious if her hoarding destroyed the 'bones' of the house. No one should have the right to destroy a heritage site, mental illness or not.

[Chalby]

On January 24, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Wildcat said:

 once it had been made clear to her a couple of times what was going to happen if stuff wasn't off the street by 5 PM, why didn't they just leave her the hell alone?  Maybe a couple of reminders, but not the incessant refrain of "Where are you taking this stuff?  You know this has to be gone by 5 right?  Don't forget it has to be gone by 5.  Hey did anyone tell you this has to be gone by 5?"  

That continuous refrain was getting on my nerves as well, but I also understand that they were trying to 'crack' Sandra into admitting she really didn't have a plan, or perhaps even any warehouses. But she's a stubborn one. I figured she had no where to take the stuff to once I saw her trying to bag 'garbage and dirt'. She was desperately trying to stretch out a bad situation in hopes somebody would show up and offer her a storage area. She was too nasty to the sweetest of people. I wish someone had just taken her off the property on day 1.

On January 23, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Purple said:

When she yelled, "Give me the time to do it!" I wanted Matt to scream at her "YOU'VE HAD YEEEEEEARS!" Yeesh! What an episode. I hope and pray I don't go down that road in my old age. Very emotional to watch.  

Very emotional. And when she was yelling the mascara fell out of her pocket? There's a true mentally-ill hoarder. All the audience is watching her lie about a ridiculous tube of mascara and she can't see the forest for the trees.

[FormerMod-a1]

Remember, they condensed 4 days worth into <1 hour.  So some the repetitiveness might not really be that bad.  We could be seeing most of it, as in a "see how many times we tried" kind of thing, but it was actually spread out over that time.

[Chalby]

On January 22, 2017 at 7:51 PM, CouchTater said:

And they are all talking to her like she's stupid:. Slowly, and repetitively. She's crazy, not stupid. She understands what they're saying, but still wants to do what she wants to do. 

Im really feeling 2nd hand frustration on her behalf. 

I too feel frustration, but sometimes I know I would feel better if they would just let the authorities condemn a place, or let the city come with its trucks and take everything. I know that sounds mean, but sometimes these people just need to lose their 'shit' so they can start again, and so I can feel as though I can breathe again, heh. (I swear I find myself holding my breath when they do their initial walk throughs).

[Chalby]

On January 22, 2017 at 8:20 PM, notyrmomma said:

Funny, they didn't strike me as business professionals.  I mean COME ON- they were crying at the end when they were throwing the trash out.  

Actually, I wondered if they were animal lovers and they were crying over those poor dogs' plights? (Devil's advocate here)

[Chalby]

My last post needs a serious answer - what type of mold was that in the hidden hallway under the house. It looked like shaving cream had been sprayed on everything? There's no way I would have gone near it even with those flimsy looking mouth masks.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Chalby
punctuation

[funky-rat]

18 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

Sandra reminded of a cousin of my dad's who developed dementia in her late seventies.  She went into the bank and tried to do something with one of her accounts which was not allowed, blew up at the teller, the manager, and everybody in the building, accused them all of trying to defraud her, called the police, etc., etc.  Sandra even resembles her, which made it a bit eerie.

Many of the people on this show are so clearly deeply mentally impaired, whether from dementia or whatever disorder hoarding falls under, and it always bothers me that they need sooooo much more help than we see them getting, for the most part.  But it's a function of how our society has chosen to deal with mental illness - if you aren't a present danger to yourself or to others, you can be out in society wreaking infinite havoc.  Many rotate continually through the jails and prisons, which is where they are able to get mental health care.  On the outside, they're too disorganized to follow through with what care is available, so round and round and round they go.  It's expensive and ineffective and ludicrous, but it's how it is by law.  I foresee Sandra starting to cross the line legally soon based on what we saw here, and maybe in jail she will get some help.  Or at least have a place to stay that isn't a van/trailer.  

As someone who has navigated the mental health system more times than I care to think about, there's a flipside to how society deals with it.  There was a time where there were many state run hospitals where I live, where the mentally ill could bet taken whether they could afford it or not.  Late MIL was in a state hospital at one time.  Then one by one, they were all closed.  The assertion was that it was "cruel" to "lock people up" for being mentally ill, and it was akin to torture or punishment, and that they'd be better off being treated on an outpatient basis, and while that may be true with some people, others it simply is not.  So now we're left with only private hospitals to take people to.  If you don't have insurance, you may be out of luck.  And if you have no family around to ensure that you're taking your meds, and getting therapy, then it becomes an issue.  Then the various county MH/MR agencies have to pick up the slack (except for the dangerously mentally ill -that fell on the prison system).  I have a friend who works for county MH/MR, and she said the waiting list for services is months long, and if you have private insurance (not Medicare or Medicaid), they tell you to not even bother to go through the county MH/MR and go with your insurance.  She said they have people who come in for med management and are not compliant, but they're not allowed to call for an involuntary hold unless they threaten suicide, or the life of another.  Otherwise, they're "stigmatizing" the person, and they have to let them go.  Even when they can call for an involuntary hold, the person is generally taken to the local hospital (regular hospital - not a mental health hospital) and they can generally only be held for 72 hours - especially if they become compliant and promise to take their meds, and are no longer making threats.  So they're back out to repeat the cycle.  I don't believe most mentally ill need to be "locked away" but also turning people loose if they promise to take their pills and check in because hospitalizing them is "cruel" doesn't seem to be doing any good either.  There has to be a happy medium somewhere.  As for me, it took me over 60 days to get Mr. Funky in for intake at a long-term outpatient program, which is run by one of the few mental facilities we have left (it's private, like all of the others).  It was another month until they started working with him - that was after he had returned to work.  It took over 30 days to get him in with a psychiatrist to evaluate him and prescribe meds.  I made calls all day, every day.  I begged and pleaded.  I cried.  I whined.  I ended up contacting one of our congressmen in that mix too - they helped as they could, but I ended up finding services due to my diligence.  And I don't know how many people just resign their fate and give up, or who have someone who will just keep on calling, and pushing, and clawing.  Like I said, we need to find middle ground somewhere.

 

**ETA - after I clicked "submit", I re-read your comment, and it's more in-line with what I was saying.  I have to bite my tongue bloody when people want to politicize mental health care when the truth is that there's plenty of "blame" to go all the way around to everyone involved.

Edited February 6, 2017 by funky-rat

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Chalby said:

what type of mold was that in the hidden hallway under the house. It looked like shaving cream had been sprayed on everything?

There's no way to put a genus-species name on those molds.  They'd have to be cultured and maybe DNA tested.

But almost all "mushrooms" -let's call them fungi- have above ground forms and very different below ground forms.  To live below ground they need moisture and just a little bit of nutrients.  Those white masses are fungal below ground growth that function as roots.  If you were to grow one of the edible mushrooms in a clear agar, you'd see similar white growths.  

Our soils on the eastern US are full of fungi.  They serve to break down organic matter.  Most are beneficial (or we who garden in old soils would be really sick after every time we work the soil.)  
Sandra's house was built on a hill top, on soils that were as old as the Great Eastern Forest that did stretch from the Atlantic to the Mississippi and a bit farther west.

[Calamity Jane]

1 hour ago, funky-rat said:

As someone who has navigated the mental health system more times than I care to think about, there's a flipside to how society deals with it.  There was a time where there were many state run hospitals where I live, where the mentally ill could bet taken whether they could afford it or not.  Late MIL was in a state hospital at one time.  Then one by one, they were all closed.  The assertion was that it was "cruel" to "lock people up" for being mentally ill, and it was akin to torture or punishment, and that they'd be better off being treated on an outpatient basis, and while that may be true with some people, others it simply is not.  So now we're left with only private hospitals to take people to.  If you don't have insurance, you may be out of luck.  And if you have no family around to ensure that you're taking your meds, and getting therapy, then it becomes an issue.  Then the various county MH/MR agencies have to pick up the slack (except for the dangerously mentally ill -that fell on the prison system).  I have a friend who works for county MH/MR, and she said the waiting list for services is months long, and if you have private insurance (not Medicare or Medicaid), they tell you to not even bother to go through the county MH/MR and go with your insurance.  She said they have people who come in for med management and are not compliant, but they're not allowed to call for an involuntary hold unless they threaten suicide, or the life of another.  Otherwise, they're "stigmatizing" the person, and they have to let them go.  Even when they can call for an involuntary hold, the person is generally taken to the local hospital (regular hospital - not a mental health hospital) and they can generally only be held for 72 hours - especially if they become compliant and promise to take their meds, and are no longer making threats.  So they're back out to repeat the cycle.  I don't believe most mentally ill need to be "locked away" but also turning people loose if they promise to take their pills and check in because hospitalizing them is "cruel" doesn't seem to be doing any good either.  There has to be a happy medium somewhere.  As for me, it took me over 60 days to get Mr. Funky in for intake at a long-term outpatient program, which is run by one of the few mental facilities we have left (it's private, like all of the others).  It was another month until they started working with him - that was after he had returned to work.  It took over 30 days to get him in with a psychiatrist to evaluate him and prescribe meds.  I made calls all day, every day.  I begged and pleaded.  I cried.  I whined.  I ended up contacting one of our congressmen in that mix too - they helped as they could, but I ended up finding services due to my diligence.  And I don't know how many people just resign their fate and give up, or who have someone who will just keep on calling, and pushing, and clawing.  Like I said, we need to find middle ground somewhere.

 

**ETA - after I clicked "submit", I re-read your comment, and it's more in-line with what I was saying.  I have to bite my tongue bloody when people want to politicize mental health care when the truth is that there's plenty of "blame" to go all the way around to everyone involved.

I have no direct experience or knowledge, but my daughter is a mental health clinician and has worked a variety of jobs in the field, is now working in a county jail, so she has seen the system from all directions.  It's just so frustrating that people who desperately need help really only get it when they're incarcerated because on the outside, as you said, the needed services to replace institutionalization were never delivered as promised.  It's so expensive and so hit-and-miss to use the justice system instead of the health care system, but as you so rightly point out, we have not found that middle way between the old often-abused system and today's sink-or-swim one.  So sorry you've had to navigate it, and it's worth keeping in mind that this could happen to anyone.  

Edited February 6, 2017 by Calamity Jane

[camom]

Back in the 1920s and 1930s, my great grandmother was institutionalized because her husband said she was crazy.  The truth was that she did suffer from depression (not terribly severe apparently) and great grandpa wanted to live with his mistress.  People used to be forced into institutions when they didn't need it, but now no one can force another person to get treatment.  I wish there was a middle ground.

I am also of the opinion that Michael and Eric were trying to be supportive as well as get support.  I definitely don't think they contacted Hoarders to get a free clean up.

[funky-rat]

Yes - we need to move from that kind of thing and into something a little different, where those who can be in society are there, and those who can't because they have a history of not taking meds, or have no family to ensure they stay on course should be at least monitored on an in-patient basis for a bit.

It's the same with the facilities for the mentally handicapped (sorry if that's not the correct term - it keeps changing).  We had a lot of "state schools" here that provided a place for the mentally handicapped whose families couldn't (or sadly didn't want to) care for them.  There were two in my area.  I had family and friends who worked at both.  Many years ago, both facilities were equipped with a number of industrial things for them to do - care for dairy cows, where the milk was supplied to local schools, or working in other areas where their end result was supplying needs to local schools, or state owned nursing homes, etc (kind-of like what some prisons do now).  No one was forced to do it.  The workers were screened ahead of time to make sure they were capable of handling the work.  And they enjoyed working, and getting a small paycheck so they could have some money of their own.  My friends and family who worked there were passionate about this, and I believe them.  Then the family of a resident (who rarely came to visit him) came by, heard about how they were doing farm work (the dairy was on the facility grounds and were supervised at all times), and were outraged that they would be subjected to "slave labor" and sued.  And won.  And that put a stop to that.  Bit by bit, all of the jobs they could do that would not only give them purpose but also aid other government or public agencies went away.  And one by one, the facilities closed.  Now some of the reason is because the mentally handicapped are staying with their families and going to mainstream schooling, which is great.  But there's a large population of aging baby boomers in the facilities who have no family left, or none who can care for them, so there are currently only a small handful of places left for them to go.  One is still open in my area, and it's filling up rapidly.  If the person can't adjust to being moved to another facility, they're sent to state-run nursing homes, which places a burden on already overworked nursing home attendants.  And a handful of years later, they discovered that yes, the mentally handicapped can do work (sometimes menial, but still) and many enjoy the routine, and the small paycheck they receive, so sheltered workshops opened up all over....but all are private.  And none supply needed items to schools, public entities, etc.  Sad, really.  And there's not much to do anymore at the facilities that are still open but to sit around and watch TV.  :(

[FormerMod-a1]

We have a Hoarders We Know and Encounter thread for discussion of personal experiences with hoarders, and we have a Small Talk thread for off-topic discussions.  This thread is for discussion of this episode.

[Galloway Cave]

Another little update on the house, including a video tour by an executive director of a non-profit that saves local historic homes in that area. The video includes before and after shots from Hoarders in several rooms. 

[smores]

Watching this episode, I don't think Michael and Eric were being exploitative at all.  Calling Hoarders in did help them get the house cleaned up (and, realistically, that's one hell of a job to tackle without professionals), but it gave Sandra the chance at getting help.  

I had a very close relative who was a hoarder, and had been since childhood.  It just grew and the problem got worse as they got older.  This person totally denied being a hoarder, of course, and all of the things that were kept were because they were "useful" or "valuable"  (I cleaned the hoard out, it wasn't true)  On the flip side of that, I repeatedly heard stories about how their life had been changed due to this loss or that situation that left them feeling abandoned.  Honestly, none of the situations were anything that most people didn't run into, there was no horrific abuse or anything like that.  A relationship ending, a divorce, etc.  But, while the rest of the world bounces back, they were just broken by each thing, and finally got to the point where they were too broken to be fixed (their words, not mine).  Of course the hoard escalated each time one of the wounds happened.  At the same time, you'd get a fight if you tried to throw out something they felt should be kept, not even going to their house and trying to clean it.  Just, say you had a magazine and that issue was special for some reason (to them), the rest of the world reads it, then throws it out because they're done with it.  I would know they read it, I had read it, then would go to throw it out, and it would set off WWIII.

I say all of that because while it would have been easier for the cleaning crew to not have Sandra there when they went through the house, it would have just made the problem worse.  She already has her story of woe, which is what leads her to hoard.  Having someone come in and push her out and then take all of her valuables that she spent 40 years collecting and just throw them out without a care?  Yeah, it would just exponentially worsen the problem.  She will likely hoard up wherever or whatever she is living in now, since she hasn't gotten any help, but it would have been way worse for them to just push her out of the process.  I honestly believe that with some hoarders all you can do is clean up after the fact.  You'll never be able to get them into a recovery type of mindset, they just keep rehoarding.

[amacmom]

After watching the repeat of this show on A&E today, I went down the interweb's rabbit hole to see what's going on now. Looks like the Julian Price House has a public Facebook page with interesting updates. I can't imbed the link but the name is Julian Price House.

[CoachWristletJen]

All I can say is God bless those beautiful men who took over ownership of the home! They had saintly patience! Sad to see what happened to Sandra. Too bad she didn't listen and sell sooner.

[jenny2682]

I just saw this and I would have kicked her ass off that property so fast her head would spin. She wasn’t elderly, frail or in my opinion mentally ill. She was a spoiled, manipulative narcissist that played all those people.

She wanted to keep the house and in her mind she deserved it. She turned the tables and tried to continually screw the people over who were helping her. When she told them she was filing another suit and going to court the following the week- GONE. When someone does the double talk and is making trained professionals cry you are dealing with narcissists or a sociopath. Hell, her own husband left probably because they couldnt afford it and she wouldn’t stop her behavior or give up the house. Dr. Z gets no points in my book because she didn’t see through the BS of what that bitch was doing. Sandra gets no sympathy. I do feel sorry for her dogs. She can live out her life in her fictional airstream miserable and alone. I’m sure the manipulative and spoiled fuck people over attitude has been her whole life. You reap what you sow.

[msrachelj]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:14 PM, Madding crowd said:

I'm not sure how to feel about this episode. That house was way too big for the Hoarders crew to handle as a typical 2 days and we are done. I'm glad they were able to clear out some actual antiques, but it makes me sad to think they may have trashed many more. I would not want to deal with Sandra, but I also felt bad that she had five people yelling at her at the same time. I actually began to feel some of her anxiety when so many people were talking at once.

She should have been escorted off the property and the antique people should have had a few days at least to look through everything. I would think it would take a fortune to restore this property (although it did look like some rooms were in decent shape). Dr. Z and her crying just drove me crazy. I don't really like Matt because I think he has too big of an ego for this job, and wished Cory would have been on this one instead. I don't think there was any right answer here. I'm guessing the new owners didn't want to pay to have all of that stuff taken out themselves. I know they want to give the Hoarders an all or nothing approach, but perhaps giving her a few days to go through things might have been a little less stressful. 

What a beautiful house-I will miss the show but at the same time I wonder how much help this is in the long run for most of the people. I guess they said Sandra is in after care, but damn she lost so much. 

just watched this again .

agreed. this was really exploitive. the couple who bought the place were incredibly compassionate but i now realize this hoarding show is horrible. these people are mentally ill. matt was making me really mad, he should know what is up with these hoarders by now. yes, they treated her like a child, this was so disturbing.

and part of me wanted to go look in those dumpsters too! you know they had to have thrown out some treasures, no way the antiques people could see everything in that hoard in so little time . i saw a few thing i wanted myself! 

now, i want to see that mansion. those guys got a real deal. it has to be worth millions now. i don't know what a family of 4 will do with all that room. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by msrachelj
spelling

[msrachelj]

On 3/6/2018 at 5:28 AM, jenny2682 said:

I just saw this and I would have kicked her ass off that property so fast her head would spin. She wasn’t elderly, frail or in my opinion mentally ill. She was a spoiled, manipulative narcissist that played all those people.

She wanted to keep the house and in her mind she deserved it. She turned the tables and tried to continually screw the people over who were helping her. When she told them she was filing another suit and going to court the following the week- GONE. When someone does the double talk and is making trained professionals cry you are dealing with narcissists or a sociopath. Hell, her own husband left probably because they couldnt afford it and she wouldn’t stop her behavior or give up the house. Dr. Z gets no points in my book because she didn’t see through the BS of what that bitch was doing. Sandra gets no sympathy. I do feel sorry for her dogs. She can live out her life in her fictional airstream miserable and alone. I’m sure the manipulative and spoiled fuck people over attitude has been her whole life. You reap what you sow.

hoarding is a mental illness. no normal person who is just a spoiled or manipulative narcissist would likely live in that filth and save all the crap garbage she wanted to at the end. do we know more about her past life, what happened to her to cause this trauma? did she fuck people over her entire life, why do you say that?

i find it sad, granted i have nowhere near the patience for people like her but it's too bad her brothers couldn't help out and get her into a small apt or group home. 

i feel bad for her dogs too. 

[atlantaloves]

This episode is the best I have ever ever ever seen on this show. What is sad is it actually broke Matt enough to quit the show. Damn it. God, I wanted to kill that woman, keeping a huge container of sand is almost as fabulous as the gal that said "I've got plans for that rock." Oh she was a nasty piece of work. 

[CoachWristletJen]

This was one nasty woman. Maybe dementia was setting in on top of the hoarding? Either way she needs help or she will wind up pushing what's left of her possessions around in a shopping cart.

Let me rephrase that. She needs to decide to take the help.

Maybe she's just this pitiful sick woman or whatever, but sounds like in recent years, she made some decisions in her dealings with the bank that were hella shady.

[CoachWristletJen]

On 1/25/2017 at 1:49 PM, buttercupia said:

...and this box of sand...

and this rock... I have a plan for this rock!

[CoachWristletJen]

I know people are saying that it was exploitive, but let's look at what would have happened if the show hadn't stepped in. They simply would have hauled everything away in dumpsters.

As sick as the woman was, that would have been the best option. That being said, they didn't know how sick she was when they were first invited to come in. They probably hoped that they could help her salvage some things to move into a new place. They wanted to offer her aftercare and counseling to help ease the blow that was inevitable. But Sandra wasn't having any of it. Again, they didn't know what they were dealing with until they got there. That's why Dr. Z was so devastated.

[CoachWristletJen]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:04 PM, MelissaMinion said:

Wasn't there another woman who wanted her house back, and the new owners let her participate? She had a lot of law school books, I think. How did that one end?

They let that woman have the house back, and she filled it up with crap again.

[CoachWristletJen]

On 1/24/2017 at 8:18 AM, gonecrackers said:

The hoarders are addicts & no different from any other addict. They lie, manipulate, use & abuse others to get & keep their 'fix'. Sandra was no different. I get that it is difficult to feel sympathy especially when bearing the brunt of their abuse. Even watching it happen to others is difficult, but I can also see the disease coming through. Who acts like that who doesn't have major issues? She was deep into it & didn't want any help, & kept clinging to her past.

She had no legal ground so she wasn't a threat anymore. She could've been taken off the property (& might have already been) without any fanfare for ratings. The worst thing to do with an addict is enable & play along with their nonsense. Allowing her to stay - for whatever reason - strung her along enough to feed her delusions of possibly getting the house back, & there's no doubt they & the show did benefit each in their own ways.

Removal -minus TV - no matter what would have happened, would have been natural consequences of her actions, & addicts do need to feel consequences of their actions, most often through extreme losses of people & things.

It's always sad to watch an addict choose their disease over a life, but they are adults & that is their choice to make. Regardless, hopefully this will jar her into seeing her reality & actually moving onto some kind of healing.

I really think these guys  might have been looking around  at all of this stuff and thinking about what a shame it was to throw it all out. They probably pictured this woman getting settled in an assisted living place or something, and figured the Hoarders people could help her pick out some of her best pieces to perhaps put into her small apartment and then put the rest up for auction. Perhaps it would give her a sense of peace, doing this with a team of professionals to support her.  After all, the Hoarders team had success with so many others in the past! Also, aftercare.

They had no idea that the woman would fight them tooth and nail and throw baby tantrums every step of the way. I don't think the two gentlemen realized how very sick she was. They knew she was sick, just not how sick. I could see them thinking the mental health support would be helpful rather than just casting her into outer darkness. Hindsight is 20/20. Who would have thought she would have been going after the sand?

[CoachWristletJen]

On 2/6/2017 at 10:50 AM, poeticlicensed said:

I don't think the new owners were trying to exploit Sandra. They had a protracted legal battle with her, yet allowed her to stay in the house even after it was settled. I think they saw that Sandra was not going away, even if the court made it clear that the house was no longer hers. She would continue filing lawsuits and sneaking onto the property. her new home would be the tunnel under the house. THey probably thought that if they extended kindness and it was documented on taped, it might finally sink in. The free clean up was a bonus. 

Sandra's backstory was fascinating and sad. It sounds like she was a force to be reckoned with (in a good way) and created a great business. Then her mental state started to deteriorate, probably coupled with marital problems and money problems. My guess is that her husband left because she became mentally ill and refused help. And they were falling into a bigger money pit daily. Her brother said something about a lawsuit that killed her business. She probably either accepted payment and didn't do work, or she used the money clients had given her to do work on their homes to support herself and her house, rather then buying from vendors. Or buying furniture, etc, from manufacturers and not paying. So her business went belly up. But it also sounded like she owned more than one property and would remortgage each property to pay for the other. That is a rabbit hole that you can't climb out of easily. 

Thinks to the person who found out that her "crew" were homeless. I figured as much. She probably goes to a homeless shelter to eat and befriended some of the people. Or stays there on cold nights. I'm assuming no utilities in the house. NC can get cold in the winter. 

I think the intention or Dr Z and Hoarders was to do an intervention, but it became clear that wasn't going to happen, they weren't going to crack her delusions, so they just should have left her to pile out on the street and then at 4pm, take it away. But they kept following he around and trying to talk to her, which made her more upset. That's the part of reality TV I hate. They have to keep talking to her or they have nothing to film but an old lady and her junk. 

This is pure speculation on my part, but I could see the lawsuit being something she probably should have cut her losses and moved on from but being how she was she just couldn't let it go and she just fought it and fought it and maybe it drew even more publicity and hurt her business? Perhaps it was something she should have quietly settled before it even went to court but she was too stubborn and control freaky about it? I could really see that happening with her.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think her business was gone years ago, except in Sandra's imagination.     There was also a lawsuit by a previous client, so I'm sure her chances of being hired after that were about zero.    I'm just glad that the dogs were rescued by Sandra's brothers.    

 

Since Sandra moved to a friend's property, I would love to see a current aerial view of the property, and imagine that it looks like a junkyard.    I bet the person that owns the land regrets letting her move there.