S01.E11: What's My Motivation?

[molshoop]

4 hours ago, Traveller519 said:

Tahani's final act on earth it could have counteracted a life time of good deeds that were selfishly motivated.

If everyone currently doing bad things for selfish reasons started doing good things for selfish reasons
we'd be living in a much better world.

[J0nas3]

And how does Eleanor get blamed for someone's dog getting kicked into the sun? That was all Michael, and the dog came back anyway.

[DrScottie]

5 hours ago, arc said:

 

8 hours ago, DrScottie said:

So, Eleanor's decision to leave bumped her score to over 1,362,322. Wow.

Well, her decision to leave allowed her apologies to not be self-serving. But 300-ish (?) apologies + the same number of "Pobody's Nerfect" T-shirts really shouldn't add up to over a million points. The point counting system sucks.

Thinking about it again, I think it was the decision to willingly leave the Good Place that gave her all those points, not the T-shirts. Tahini mentioned that the big sacrifices are already taken because they are already dead.  It was her only move.   

[secnarf]

I agree. I think the t-shirt thing was to distract everybody long enough for Eleanor to be able to get on the train. Not that that really ended up working out for her, but I thought that was the idea.

[festivus]

10 hours ago, dabbrusc said:

Have you ever said "Hubby" or referred to the department store Target as "Tar-jay"?

Oh no, I'm going to the Bad Place. Hopefully not until after I go to Tar-jay tomorrow though. My son's favorite band is the Chili Peppers and he loves this show so every time they use them as a question of whether you should be in the Good Place, it cracks me up.

[possibilities]

The RHCP thing reminds me of how on Scrubs Dr Cox used to HATE ... damn, now I can't remember who it was-- another actor-- he would always use the guy's name as part of a recurring rant. I think they must have been friends. So my theory is that someone on the writing staff is either a lover of RHCP or friends with someone who is related.

I thought that everyone hating Eleanor and blaming her for problems in the neighborhood was interesting because it wasn't her fault she was there, and the problems were not directly things she did. She didn't throw garbage or kick the dog. If they knew what bad things she did in life, that might make them dislike her, but they don't know that stuff; all they know is that she was there by mistake-- someone else's mistake. And yet they didn't seem to be doubting the system, or resentful of Michael who was supposedly in charge.

If they do reboot Janet, it will be interesting to see if she gets stuck on cacti again, or if it's something else instead. Also, she's said that each time she's rebooted she gains new information. It could be fun to see what else she acquires.

I thought Eleanor offering to leave was a good deed because it would theoretically free everyone in the neighborhood of the ill effects of her being there, and the hassle of trying to save her. So it was truly generous, selfless, and self-sacrificing. But since she also knows that generous, selfless self-sacrifice gets you a lot of points, she's kind of also selfishly motivated. It's a bit of a bind.

On the other hand, her previous confession to get Chidi off the hook was TRULY selfless and salf-sacrificing on every level. And that didn't seem to help her points. So I still am not clear if we have the point system figured out completely.

I suspect Shawn may have some surprising things to say about what is going on here, not just with Eleanor but  with the entire neighborhood. Michael himself seems to be, basically, a middle management architect. Shawn seems to be Michael's (and Trevor's) boss, so I expect he will have some answers to our questions. I hope so, anyway.

Also, I'm disappointed that Shawn is not female.

Edited January 14, 2017 by possibilities

[kat165]

I may be remembering incorrectly but back in ep 1, 2 or 3 didn't Michael tell Eleanor (before he knew she was there by mistake) that once you died you could no longer acrue points. So it really puzzled me when Eleanor started trying to build them up.

[Mabinogia]

First I want to thank the show for going a totally different route with Jason being there. I am glad the real Jianyu isn't in the bad place but just so deep in meditation they thought he died. LOL

Since some have speculated that maybe the people in this good place aren't exactly the best people but good but need some improving, if they knew their forgiving Eleanor wasn't going to win them any points, maybe they aren't trying quite as hard to be good anymore.

Really it's just the perfect example of group think. Our perfect neighborhood is less than perfect. Oh, this outsider may be the cause. Burn the witch!!!!! Even good people can fall into the trap of scapegoating someone if they think that person is less good than they are.

Never in a million years would I have predicted Jason and Janet would be married. I mean, if my life had depended on it I would have laughed and said it would never happen. And now, damned if I'm not rooting for those two crazy kids (well, one crazy kid and a whatever Janet is.) And I never would have imagined Eleanor, Jason and Janet hijacking a train out of the good place. I love this show for constantly surprising me in ways that make total sense. Because I actually get Jason and Janet's marriage and the three of them running away. It is crazy, but it makes sense.

And I want to agree with those who are loving New and Improved Eleanor. She is perfect and yet, not annoyingly so. But I think Chidi has his eyes on Original Recipe. And you know what, New and Improved will probably totally support his decision because she is perfect. But if so, I do hope she finds her real soul mate.

hmmm, maybe Original Recipe is Chidi's soul mate but because of her bad deeds, was going to the bad place, which would mean Chidi would be without his soul mate so 'ooops' the Eleanors get swapped. Maybe New and Improved's soul mate is in the bad place. that would suck.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Mabinogia

[kat165]

Thanks, nosleep.

[Mockingbird]

9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

And I want to agree with those who are loving New and Improved Eleanor. She is perfect and yet, not annoyingly so. But I think Chidi has his eyes on Original Recipe. And you know what, New and Improved will probably totally support his decision because she is perfect. But if so, I do hope she finds her real soul mate.

hmmm, maybe Original Recipe is Chidi's soul mate but because of her bad deeds, was going to the bad place, which would mean Chidi would be without his soul mate so 'ooops' the Eleanors get swapped. Maybe New and Improved's soul mate is in the bad place. that would suck.

Chidi and Original Recipe (ha!) Eleanor are completely soulmates, not because they love all the same routines (which is what New and Improved Eleanor, who I agree is sweet and immensely likable, thinks soulmates should be) but because they make each other better people, even when that shouldn't be possible anymore. I imagine Eleanor's score was much lower before she confessed to Michael that she shouldn't be there because she couldn't stand to see Chidi so upset. And her telling Chidi to tell New and Improved that he loves her, too, won her points because, while she has feelings for him, she really just wants him to be happy. And Eleanor's helping Chidi trust his gut and make big decisions (though he clearly has a ways to go.) I really love the two of their interactions, though I would be fine with them taking a bit of time before they both realize the system didn't mess up when it paired them together. 

[jumper sage]

So glad they are getting around what seemed like a boxed in situation.  The medium place.  I like this show.

Was it this episode or the last that showed how Chidi could not make a decision - hilarious.

[AllyB]

On 1/13/2017 at 0:55 PM, bethy said:

This was my thought, too. Like, if y'all are so "good," what about forgiving Eleanor?

The one thing I always wonder is if they are all so good how are they ok with the vast, vast majority of humans being in the Bad Place. Most of these people worked to improve the lives of the less fortunate, they'd hardly stop caring just because those less fortunate will now endure hell forever. Truly good people would be trying to address that and not just blithely accepting their deserved place in heaven. 

[Kromm]

I laughed SO damn hard at so many jokes in this episode. Jason and Janet, as well as Jason's flashbacks, were pure liquid genius (the Mario-esque safe installer was simultaneously one of the dumbest, and yet funniest things of the whole series). 

[DrScottie]

8 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

And I want to agree with those who are loving New and Improved Eleanor. She is perfect and yet, not annoyingly so. But I think Chidi has his eyes on Original Recipe. And you know what, New and Improved will probably totally support his decision because she is perfect. But if so, I do hope she finds her real soul mate.

hmmm, maybe Original Recipe is Chidi's soul mate but because of her bad deeds, was going to the bad place, which would mean Chidi would be without his soul mate so 'ooops' the Eleanors get swapped. Maybe New and Improved's soul mate is in the bad place. that would suck.

If that's the case, it might be because Chidi is essentially Henry Higgins in My Fair Lady with Original Recipe as Eliza Doolittle. 

Of course, Real Eleanor deserves to be happy too. She already suffered in the Bad Place mistakenly and is a saintly woman. 

57 minutes ago, AllyB said:

The one thing I always wonder is if they are all so good how are they ok with the vast, vast majority of humans being in the Bad Place. Most of these people worked to improve the lives of the less fortunate, they'd hardly stop caring just because those less fortunate will now endure hell forever. Truly good people would be trying to address that and not just blithely accepting their deserved place in heaven. 

Saved from torture sure, but would you want those tools Trevor brought up to live next door to you? 

[LazyToaster]

Eleanor, Jason, and Janet taking the train - sheer genius - THEN... I realized it was the end of the show!  I was so disappointed to have to wait to find out what happens. 

[EyewatchTV211]

A lot of people have posted their favorite parts/quotes from the episode. One I loved was how casually Michael said, "I'm gonna go murder Janet and I'll be right back." And also the back and forth with Michael sending Janet away and Jason calling her back.

[cpcathy]

I love any scene that involves Michael and Janet.

[Kel Varnsen]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎13 at 3:04 PM, DrScottie said:

So, Eleanor's decision to leave bumped her score to over 1,362,322. Wow.

That's higher than Tahani's of 997,485.

She is possibly the only person in the history of the world to sacrifice themselves to help others knowing full well the terrible place they will be spending eternity.   Not sure you can get a much bigger sacrifice than that.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Kel Varnsen

[mstar1125]

We really need more backstory on Tahani. She's a gracious hostess and has always been shown to pitch in around the neighborhood whenever there is a crisis, but it all seems self-serving. It makes her feel good when people tell her how nice her party was or how nice she is for helping out. Then there's the constant name-dropping. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we find out Tahani is also in The Good Place by mistake...or that they all are. As someone upthread mentioned, Tahani's final score seems to be bumped up by sacrificing her life for someone else (she alluded to this when talking to Fake Eleanor this episode). If Fake Eleanor's self-sacrifice earned her over 1,000,000 points, and Tahani's final tally was just under 1,000,000, then we could assume Tahani was in the negative until her final death act.

Chidi's backstory also suggests he isn't Good Place material. We never saw evidence of any good deeds, all we saw was him lying to a colleague FOR YEARS (about the boots) and annoying the shit out of everyone around him.  I don't recall if they ever showed Chidi's final score, but do we know how he earned it? 

[DrScottie]

5 minutes ago, mstar1125 said:

We really need more backstory on Tahani. She's a gracious hostess and has always been shown to pitch in around the neighborhood whenever there is a crisis, but it all seems self-serving. It makes her feel good when people tell her how nice her party was or how nice she is for helping out. Then there's the constant name-dropping. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we find out Tahani is also in The Good Place by mistake...or that they all are. As someone upthread mentioned, Tahani's final score seems to be bumped up by sacrificing her life for someone else (she alluded to this when talking to Fake Eleanor this episode). If Fake Eleanor's self-sacrifice earned her over 1,000,000 points, and Tahani's final tally was just under 1,000,000, then we could assume Tahani was in the negative until her final death act.

Chidi's backstory also suggests he isn't Good Place material. We never saw evidence of any good deeds, all we saw was him lying to a colleague FOR YEARS (about the boots) and annoying the shit out of everyone around him.  I don't recall if they ever showed Chidi's final score, but do we know how he earned it? 

I'm with you, I think Tahani died sacrificing herself too. She almost had to have. 

They did show Chidi's total. Now, the most recent episodes have certainly portrayed him in a negative light, but I presuming he was making a difference in different places globally. The totals came up in Episodes 5 and 11. I've never found a number for Jason (Jacksonville Jaguars Rule!) Mendoza, but it is almost certainly in the negative. 

For the main characters, here's the numbers:

• Jianyu Li (not Jason Mendoza): 2nd at 2,707,234
• Eleanor Shellstrop (not "Fake" Eleanor): 6th at 2,513,654.
• Chidi Anagonye: 16th at 1,948,668
• Tahani Al-Jamil: 321st at 997,485.  Second from the bottom. 
• Fake Eleanor (after deciding to leave): 1,362,322

Top and Bottom Rankings. 

• #1 was David Arias at 2,987,309
• #322 Glenn Martrempf (number unknown, but has to be less than Tahani's)

There are no numbers after Glenn so it's presumed he's last. 

[kaygeeret]

I missed this epi due to unavoidable circumstances.

Can anyone tell me how to see it?

I do not have cable or satellite.

thanks

[Dowel Jones]

nbc.com probably has a link to it if you don't mind the small screen.

[possibilities]

Hulu has it.

[withanaich]

Quote

I love this show.  I love all the details and the character interactions.   I was looking at the business names last night--do they change from episode to episode?  Like an inside joke?

I know the restaurant they went to on opening night was called The Good Plate (or Plates), and the spa was called The Good Face.

[Mabinogia]

They really need a fruit stand called Bad Apples. Would that even be allowed? I do love all the cute business names. I want to live in the Good Place. It just seems delightful, save for the flying turkeys and falling garbage and giant sink holes, but I hear they are working on that. ;)

[Cowgirl]

On 1/13/2017 at 5:26 PM, arc said:

I thought Eleanor punched a cake and that caused the sinkhole?

You're right.  I re-watched this weekend and realized it was indeed Eleanor's cake punching and not Jason's presence that caused the sinkhole. 

I've got to say -- these are even funnier on repeated viewings!

[Rinaldo]

47 minutes ago, Cowgirl said:

I've got to say -- these are even funnier on repeated viewings!

If there was ever a series that lent itself to binging (even if you've seen it before), it's this one.

[cpcathy]

There are always new little nuances to notice. Janet just gets funnier on repeat viewings.

[Agent Dark]

On 14/01/2017 at 6:36 PM, possibilities said:

The RHCP thing reminds me of how on Scrubs Dr Cox used to HATE ... damn, now I can't remember who it was-- another actor-- he would always use the guy's name as part of a recurring rant. I think they must have been friends. So my theory is that someone on the writing staff is either a lover of RHCP or friends with someone who is related.

Hugh Jackman.  "But he's Wolverine!"

[Traveller519]

On 1/17/2017 at 10:48 AM, cpcathy said:

There are always new little nuances to notice. Janet just gets funnier on repeat viewings.

Yeah, show's like this or Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, I'm sure I miss a third of the more nuanced comedy, and I'll never remember 90% of it, but that's what makes them so rewatchable.

[kaygeeret]

Thank you Dowel Jones and possibilities for your information.  I watched on the nbc web site, glitches and all! I have stopped searching the networks for full episodes and have very few network shows I care about...but I digress.

What a great episode!  This series - -demands sweats, socks, popcorn and a comfortable couch for binging!

Am devastated that tomorrow is the end and at the same time I can't wait!

I am so conflicted!

[Charlesman]

On 1/13/2017 at 3:26 PM, Cowgirl said:

I so agree that there are so many good lines that just zip by in this show!  One of my favorites of the episode was Jason's "I'm not a failure! I'm just pre-successful."

I liked his "I'm a professional amateur DJ"

[JustaPerson]

So Jianyu isn't actually dead? Tahani has to wait for her soul mate? I would love to see the real Jianyu. I think it would be hilarious to see Tahani and the silent Jianyu connect (since he is her soul mate after all.) 

[King of Birds]

On 1/15/2017 at 7:49 PM, DrScottie said:

Top and Bottom Rankings. 

• #1 was David Arias at 2,987,309

Oh. My. God.  You all know Mike Schur is a huge Red Sox fan, right?

David Arias is David Ortiz, the lefty power hitting Red Sox who just retired and can be seen in commercials hitting tennis balls all over the place for Turbo Tax. I need to thank DrScottie for posting all those numbers, because I did not catch his name when I watched the episode. Kudos!

[John Potts]

So I guess St Peter (or whoever makes the determination, given Christians are only about 5% correct on who goes where) follows a Kantian ethical system - intentions are everything. Mind you, I'm not sure there would be a huge amount of utility in giving people living in the good place a T-Shirt they probably don't want (obviously, other ethical systems exist).

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 3:15 AM, dcalley said:

I loved that Jason said, "Is it just me, or am I acing this test?!" and the cube turned red.

Except... shouldn't it stay green? It's (supposedly) a lie detector and Jason really DID believe he was acing the test.

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 4:41 AM, bethy said:

I may have said out loud, "Kevin!"

You & me both! Particularly when he deadpanned that Eleanor was stealing his train.

[aradia22]

Loved Tahani's dress at the start of the episode.

Chidi's reactions to the egg surprise were cartoonish perfection. I really adore this character/actor. Kristen Bell is fine but I'm glad the focus of the show has shifted more to the secondary characters.

Reckoning with the motivation for good deeds counteracting the moral calculus is an interesting topic for an episode. They touched upon it before like with Tahani doing things to compete with her sister/earn points with her parents and Chidi talking about Aristotle but this is a tough question a lot of similar shows wouldn't really tackle.

GASP! Marc Evan Jackson is Shawn? Unexpected but I'm into it.

[aradia22]

Quote

PS:  Those goody-do-gooders in The Good Place sure weren't about forgiveness, were they?

Someone who is an expert in philosophy or world religions would probably be better able to break this down but my instinct is to say that forgiveness is more of a Christian concept that is only as dominant as it is because Christianity has been so dominant in recent history. So it's possible that in the theology of the Good Place, doing good deeds is more important than forgiveness. It's like how some religions see virtue in poverty or chastity. Our moral compass is affected by our belief systems.