S04.E16: Crossings

[nodorothyparker]

6 hours ago, green said:

I think Ecbert felt he needed to bear witness to Ragnar's death.  Also Ecbert is shown to be about the same age and he knows his end time will come sooner than later.  He wants to see how a real man can die.  He wants to prepare himself in a way.  He wore Aethelstan's robes so he could attend without being spotted and to carry part of Aethelstan to Ragnar in a way as a comfort to him.  Well I'd like to think the second part anyway, heh. 

I think he hopes the Vikings won't attack Wessex but I think he really knows in his heart the Vikings will ultimately come into Wessex though be slowed down by Northumbria enough to kill off a number of them as well as get Aelle killed giving him an opening for that kingdom.  Send Aethelwulf off to fight and he may get knocked off so Alfred gets to be king earlier than later.  I do agree he underestimated Ivar though.  But then every last one of them have so far.   Aethelwulf didn't have that great an insight as much that he hates all Vikings and believes they have a collective mind that says "kill all Saxons".  Which right now isn't far from the truth.

It was interested in that episode with his and Ragnar's long talks that he mentioned that the Viking colony he massacred was "too early" in their peoples history but maybe by the time of his grandson Alfred that might actually work.  So I think Hirst at least has him foreshadowing history for us thereby knowing the Vikings will keep coming and he wants to buy time until the Vikings will truly want to become peaceful farmers more than bloody raiders.

 

I agree that Ecbert wanted to bear witness to Ragnar's death and I think try to deal with his own sense of guilt about facilitating it.  He seemed to be telling the truth when he told Ragnar that he couldn't kill him even as he realized he couldn't let him go either.  They were of such like minds and spirits in a world with precious few of them that I think if he could have figured a realistic third way out of it he might have taken it.

Because it's Ecbert, it's probable that he has considered the likelihood that Ragnar wasn't being entirely on the level with the deal to send Ivar home in exchange for siccing the boys onto Aelle instead.  He's at least not denying that it could happen or forbidding Aethelwulf from making the necessary fortifications for just in case.  But I think Ragnar's passing affected him so profoundly that along with hoping he can make the most of it if the boys do take out Aelle that he really does want to believe that his old buddy was sincere in the end in striking that deal.  I also think that's going to be Ecbert's ultimate mistake and that he's going to realize it before it's all over.

I'm not giving Aethelwulf credit for any particular insight when it comes to Ivar as much as acknowledging that he at least recognizes that sending him home to spread the word is likely only going to rile the sons when it might have been smarter to hang onto him when they had him to use later as leverage should his brothers show up to burn the whole place down.

I love that we're more or less into the actual history now too.  I don't have any known Norse stock but my English ancestors all came from the Winchester and Exeter areas, so historic Wessex.  These are my people who are going to be on the receiving end of it.

Edited January 6, 2017 by nodorothyparker

[green]

33 minutes ago, LOA-maker said:

it is rewarded but then what he did was no different to all the other revent killing we've seen. Lagertha knew that his sons would seek revenge on her, and Ivar did nthing wrong. 

The original poster didn't say he did anything wrong by Viking standards.  They said they thought it was funny he didn't "get" why Lagertha did her thing.  And I agree.

[Babalooie]

Talk about confusing!  As GREEN  mentioned, through ancestry.com (this is not a commercial), I have found that I am descended from Ivar, Sigurd, Aella, and Eckbert!  It is pretty freaky to see great-grandpas planning to kill great-grandpas.  It's fascinating to learn about this time in history and then see the point where Scandinavians married English or Scottish people.  I don't even want to attempt to do the math to figure how many ancestors we actually have.  I appreciate that Vikings has created an interest.

[Nmissi]

I don't wait Bjorn to cheat on Torvi. BTW, what were they going to do with all those captured women (besides the obvious)? I know they would become slaves, but would the Vikings actually drag them along on their multi-year raiding voyage?

My guess is that most of the harem are destined for the slave markets in the Mediterranean.

[slf]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Kattegat has become a thriving market town since Ragnar left eight years ago.  Even Lagertha said as much.  I'd say it was being ruled pretty well.

I remember, I'm just not sure how much of that to credit to Aslaug. Even when scenes focused on her she wasn't generally shown to be ruling or making plans. The only aspect of leadership she seemed to enjoy was the religious rituals, I expect because of her ability. It's entirely possible she made the plans to increase trade and Hirst made a mistake in not showing us that. Or Kattegat becoming a thriving market town had as much to do with it being the seat of the King. Kattegat started doing better when Rangar and the others began raiding in England all those years ago and that only increased over the years. But nothing else got better, really. The town still looks like shit. As Lagertha pointed out there were no fortifications which is bizarre considering Kattegat is a thriving market town and was the home of the King. Part of that is on Ragnar. Part of that is on Aslaug.

[DHDancer]

The best for me?  Rollo, LUXURIATING in all things Viking!  He was having such a good time with it all.

PS, I think Floki's pause-for-thought in the mosque stems from the "musselmen" not having any graven images etc.

Edited January 5, 2017 by DHDancer

[FlowerofCarnage]

23 minutes ago, slf said:

I remember, I'm just not sure how much of that to credit to Aslaug. Even when scenes focused on her she wasn't generally shown to be ruling or making plans. The only aspect of leadership she seemed to enjoy was the religious rituals, I expect because of her ability. It's entirely possible she made the plans to increase trade and Hirst made a mistake in not showing us that. Or Kattegat becoming a thriving market town had as much to do with it being the seat of the King. Kattegat started doing better when Rangar and the others began raiding in England all those years ago and that only increased over the years. But nothing else got better, really. The town still looks like shit. As Lagertha pointed out there were no fortifications which is bizarre considering Kattegat is a thriving market town and was the home of the King. Part of that is on Ragnar. Part of that is on Aslaug.

I agree  it's bizarre the town's defenses haven't been fortified especially since Ubbe mentioned in the premiere that the town's prosperity made it a target and that is why he chose to stay behind.

[Sienna]

5 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I feel bad for Torvi because the beautiful harem girl is going to be Bjorn's next lover.  I just hope she doesn't turn out to be Yidu, like others have said.

 

I do too. 

For some reason, I picture Bjorn falling hard for her, only to have her die tragically before they get back to Scandinavia. I have no idea why, it's just a feeling.

And I kinda hope that's what happens, 'cause I really don't want to see a repeat of Ragnar's double baby mama drama.

[ghoulina]

40 minutes ago, DHDancer said:

The best for me?  Rollo, LUXURIATING in all things Viking!  He was having such a good time with it all.

I agree, that was lovely. Rollo was looking hot again. I always found him more attractive than Ragnar, but his froo-froo French ways turned me off. 

[Ohwell]

I also feel bad for the poor slave girl in Kattegut because she's got three brothers to deal with.  I wish Lagertha would do more to protect her.

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, green said:

I have to disagree.  It is an historical drama and Hirst said all along he was trying to stick with as much of the real history as he could.  That he was trying to tell the story of the real Vikings; not the Whatevers fictional people you make up.   It doesn't have the same power if it is just made up crap.  But knowing there were real people named Lagertha, Bjorn, Alfred, Ivar etc and what they actually did gives this show far greater power than some fictional fluff. 

Hirst said his original intent was to tell the history of the Vikings and the Viking Age and as we know from Western Civ 101 it started for historians in the late 790's with the raid on that exact abbey where our fictional "everyman" Aethelstan was at.  

 

See, that's where I think Hirst is starting to venture into Fantasyland. Given what we know of the Vikings, does anyone think a real-life Floki would've had some sort of "Come to Jesus" revelation in the Mosque and forbade the others to kill the praying men? No, they would've slaughtered everybody because that's what they did back then. I felt like they were trying to insert too much political correctness into this episode, and that really grinds my gears. I'm cool with character development and the writers having their own interpretations, but not when it borders on incredulous. This could've been a great episode if it weren't for the Floki/Helga nonsense.

[Ohwell]

48 minutes ago, DHDancer said:

The best for me?  Rollo, LUXURIATING in all things Viking!  He was having such a good time with it all.

Historically, I guess he went back to Paris?  If he does, he'll have Princess Mushmouth and the Three Rugrats to deal with. Bummer.

[ihartcoffee]

56 minutes ago, DHDancer said:

The best for me?  Rollo, LUXURIATING in all things Viking!  He was having such a good time with it all.

PS, I think Floki's pause-for-thought in the mosque stems from the "musselmen" not having any graven images etc.

I noticed his huge smile,  it was hilarious.  I bet he was bored out of his mind in Paris. 

[BitterApple]

7 minutes ago, ihartcoffee said:

I noticed his huge smile,  it was hilarious.  I bet he was bored out of his mind in Paris. 

I for one love dirty, grimy Rollo much better than the pretty boy with the shiny barrel curls. I'm kind of bummed he has to return to Princess Mush Mouth.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Exactly Why Isn't Lagertha Just Killing Ivar Now On Vikings?

And other questions sparked by 'Crossings'!

[Scaeva]

5 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I don't wait Bjorn to cheat on Torvi. BTW, what were they going to do with all those captured women (besides the obvious)? I know they would become slaves, but would the Vikings actually drag them along on their multi-year raiding voyage?

The historical Vikings were heavily involved in the slave-trade. They'd often take captives in their raids to sell in foreign slave markets. That's probably what Bjorn's crew has in mind for the captives they took from the harem.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

5 hours ago, green said:

The original poster didn't say he did anything wrong by Viking standards.  They said they thought it was funny he didn't "get" why Lagertha did her thing.  And I agree.

I think the expecttion is different for woman...regardless of Shieldmaiden status (the "Real Vikings" talked about the actual debate if the existed)...

 

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I for one love dirty, grimy Rollo much better than the pretty boy with the shiny barrel curls. I'm kind of bummed he has to return to Princess Mush Mouth.

I imagine he's imagining the make-up sex.

[whoknowswho]

Watched this on demand, and maybe the stream was messed up--but I couldn't SEE about 3/4 of the episode. My husband and I kept saying "Please turn up the lights!". We saw a Viking horde take a leisurely stroll through the Moorish town--heard a bit, saw not one bit of violence--Half Dan and Finehair were oh so proper--the two who took great pleasure in raping and killing people last year.

Where is the famous Viking cruelty?  I have NO clue what the hell Helga was doing, and am even more confused over Floki getting religion and forbidding anyone killing the men in the mosque. Just, bizarre. I'm almost out of here, and I've been hooked from the first episode, way back when we were introduced to Ragnar and his crew 4 seasons ago.  I did see the harem in what appeared to be chains or ropes, but I'm quite surprised everything was done off screen.  Part of the lure of this show has been it's character's incredible fierceness and violence--and then to see them being tender with their own families, was often jarring and interesting. This episode was white bread served with water. I do agree with the last 5 minutes--the crows, loved it--and Odin's popping in to tell everyone was sort of cool, too. This year I am not loving all the changes, not at all.  Far too politically correct, dark, difficult to see and just meh. But I'm still trying to get over Ragnar.  :( I knew he was going , hoped he'd die the way history has suggested, but really otherwise I'm disappointed with this season.

[DHDancer]

Dear whoknowswho, would you please edit your post to remove all the blank lines at the end.  Looks like a bunch of html code or something got copied in :)

And yeah, I agree with you as regards the darkness of the episode: I've found I have to watch a lot of programs these days with my living room lights out in order to "see better".   I've figured out there are several probable reasons for the darkness, all but the last one being unacceptable IMO: 
1. In Sci Fi, its to hide the fact they didn't build the sets or lacked imagination for a complete scene
2. And/or They lacked the budget for detailed sets
3. They are going for period-relevant lighting, as in Wolf Hall.

[gwhh]

The raid took place in Algeciras,.  Which is in Spain and sits right at the straight of  Gibraltar on the Mediterranean Sea side. 

[slf]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

See, that's where I think Hirst is starting to venture into Fantasyland. Given what we know of the Vikings, does anyone think a real-life Floki would've had some sort of "Come to Jesus" revelation in the Mosque and forbade the others to kill the praying men? No, they would've slaughtered everybody because that's what they did back then. I felt like they were trying to insert too much political correctness into this episode, and that really grinds my gears. I'm cool with character development and the writers having their own interpretations, but not when it borders on incredulous. This could've been a great episode if it weren't for the Floki/Helga nonsense.

I don't see how that was "political correctness"? The Vikings had history with the Muslims and much of it was positive: there was trade, cultural exchanges, hell a ring found on the bones of a Viking woman were inscribed with "to Allah". So there likely was religious conversion as well. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I think Floki liked the symetry of the architecture.

[Haleth]

Wowie!  That last few minutes were fantastic!  So powerful!  Yup, there's a storm coming, alright. The English have no idea what's been unleashed. 

[LOA-maker]

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I also feel bad for the poor slave girl in Kattegut because she's got three brothers to deal with.  I wish Lagertha would do more to protect her.

I cannot see them hurting her.

[LOA-maker]

22 hours ago, slf said:

When people are drawn to a new religion it's generally because it speaks to them in a way no other faith does.

Pretty odd though, since Islam and Christianity are sister religions with very similar teachings.

[LennieBriscoe]

Islam is nothing like Christianity! Moreover, they most certainly are not "sister religions," LOL! In any event, Floki isn't a Christian.

Perhaps, Sienna, your hunch is because Apollonia died, too ("Godfather").

whoknowswho, You saw "not one bit of violence"? I saw a mother get her throat slit in front of her child, an Imam beheaded in a mosque, men slain by the sword, etc. 

slf, As I posted earlier, the historic Bjorn Ironside CONQUERED Islamic Sicily, hardly a "positive" for the latter!

gwhh, How do you know it's Algeciras? I'm asking sincerely. (I've been there, to take the boat from Spain proper to its territory in Africa, Ceuta, before entering Morocco.)

Edited January 6, 2017 by LennieBriscoe

[Son of the Norse]

I for one loved, and still love the show.  I am enjoying it for the pure entertainment value.  

I also love that my ancestors are portrayed on the TV for me to enjoy every week! :)

I love the character of Ivar.  My grief over the loss of Ragnar is quickly being taken away from the passion that Ivar is showing over the loss of his father.

I love that Odin himself walked among them and gave notice that their father was gone.

I love all of Ragnar's son's (even snake in the eye), because in real life all people will not be heroic or likable (which he is so far neither).

I hope that this is the end of Ragnar flash backs; even though I loved his character I want to love his sons even more....and I feel I will in the long run.

I love that they grabbed all the harem girls for slaves; the Vikings were historically always slave traders (more than likely one of their most profitable enterprises).

Mostly, I love that the person that I most identify with (Bjorn), is showing that he is a successful leader.

Thank you Hirst for giving us the best TV show of all time!!!! :) :) :)

[slf]

1 hour ago, LOA-maker said:

Pretty odd though, since Islam and Christianity are sister religions with very similar teachings.

Similar teachings to be sure but a lot of differences as well. I mean, it's perfectly reasonable to me that Loki would be drawn to one and not the other because that's how it works for most people. Setting aside that I don't think Loki was against Christianity and Athelstan because of Christian teachings per se but because of what they represented to him (the changing times), Christians are Christian and not Muslim despite the similarities because something about Christianity speaks to them. The same is true for Muslims. Loki struggles a lot with his place in the world, how Viking culture is reacting to other cultures, how his fellow Vikings are being affected by exposure to other cultures and religions. Something about the steadying chanting during the slaughter drew him in, seeing the Muslims find such strength and calm in their prayers that they didn't respond to the threat around them clearly affected him. Perhaps Hirst wants Loki to represent the Vikings who historically did interact with Muslim culture and religion and were receptive to aspects of them.

Quote

slf, As I posted earlier, the historic Bjorn Ironside CONQUERED Islamic Sicily, hardly a"positive" for the latter!

@LennieBriscoe I saw your post but that wasn't what I was referring to. Of course Viking raids weren't positive for the Muslims any more than Muslim hostilities were positive for the Vikings. But these two people did interact and established trade with each other, their cultures and religions did interact, it seems like there might've been marriages, and there is good evidence to suggest religious conversion. I was merely stating that there's nothing really ahistorical about a Viking being fascinated by the Muslims. After all, this show started with a Viking being fascinated by Christians. That's how the world works.

Quote

Islam is nothing like Christianity! Moreover, they most certainly are not "sister religions," LOL!

There are many similarities between them as they are both Abrahamic religions and therefore sister religions like LOA-maker stated. Christianity and Islam have far more in common with each other than either has with the Viking faith.

Edited January 6, 2017 by slf

[green]

9 hours ago, Babalooie said:

Talk about confusing!  As GREEN  mentioned, through ancestry.com (this is not a commercial), I have found that I am descended from Ivar, Sigurd, Aella, and Eckbert!  It is pretty freaky to see great-grandpas planning to kill great-grandpas.  It's fascinating to learn about this time in history and then see the point where Scandinavians married English or Scottish people.  I don't even want to attempt to do the math to figure how many ancestors we actually have.  I appreciate that Vikings has created an interest.

Wow I forgot about your Saxon connections.  I guess it is like being a League League parent with two kids on opposite teams playing each other but with more blood.  Hah.

6 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Historically, I guess he went back to Paris?  If he does, he'll have Princess Mushmouth and the Three Rugrats to deal with. Bummer.

Historically he isn't in Paris any more.  He was given a fifedom for his services.  That was his original lure in the deal to flip to the Frankish side and that is what he got.  He is now Duke of the new fiefdom of Normandy (Normandy name comes from Norsemen because of Rollo).  And that is why Bjorn needed his permission to sail his boats along his coastline.

3 hours ago, slf said:

I don't see how that was "political correctness"? The Vikings had history with the Muslims and much of it was positive: there was trade, cultural exchanges, hell a ring found on the bones of a Viking woman were inscribed with "to Allah". So there likely was religious conversion as well. 

Probably taken as loot though like a lot of crosses found from the early Viking period as well.  Maybe the original owner had been Muslin but doubtful the owner buried with it was.

1 hour ago, Son of the Norse said:

I love all of Ragnar's son's (even snake in the eye), because in real life all people will not be heroic or likable (which he is so far neither).

I got to say that second to Bjorn I like Sigurd the best myself.  He seems the one that can keep his cool, step back and assess the situation and not be ruled so much by emotions.  And he seems the most cunning and devious as well.  Makes him a little atypical so more unique for me.  Also I LIKE his hair as opposed to the patchwork quilt skull look of Ubbe say.  His is more Rollo like.  Just let it grow, maybe throw in a braid and look like a rock star.  I think it is a cool look and he saves money not going to the barbershop every week to get his skull trimmed just so, heh.

BTW they weren't suppose to be crows in the last 5 minutes.  They were suppose to be ravens.  Ravens accompany Odin everywhere.  That was why Ragnar's sign and symbol on his armor and standard was always the raven since he thought himself the son of Odin.

[slf]

8 minutes ago, green said:

Probably taken as loot though like a lot of crosses found from the early Viking period as well.  Maybe the original owner had been Muslin but doubtful the owner buried with it was.

Possibly. There was once a community of Viking converts to Islam who settled in Seville, Spain so it's also possible the Viking woman had the ring because she was Muslim.

[green]

17 minutes ago, slf said:

Possibly. There was once a community of Viking converts to Islam who settled in Seville, Spain so it's also possible the Viking woman had the ring because she was Muslim.

Was she buried in Seville?  And is this community the basis of Hirst's idea to get Floki interested in Islam all of a sudden?

[Ravenya003]

Late to the party as usual, but I enjoyed it.

Ragnar's eleventh hour atheism makes little sense in the wake of this episode (though to be honest, it never made much sense). I know that it was at Travis Fimmel's request, but ... well, maybe it's proof that you shouldn't listen to actors. Hirst has always infused this show with mysticism and unexplained phenomena, and since this ends with ODIN HIMSELF rounding up Ragnar's sons, as well as an appearance from Ragnar to Lagertha, it seems pretty clear that there are supernatural/godly forces in this world. 

Ivar was so heavily foreshadowed as the one who will kill Lagertha that it seems certain one of the others will do it. 

Helga has taken a dive off the deep end, but I wasn't too surprised by Floki's reaction to the Muslims. His hatred of Christianity was born from his jealousy of Athelstan; this time around he's exploring something on his own terms. Plus it's come AFTER his crisis of faith in Paris, which put a real dent in his fundamentalism. When he entered the temple I thought to myself "he's gonna be really confused that there are no graven images" - and sure enough, it was a point of conversation when the others marched in. 

People are complaining that the Viking attack wasn't graphic enough? Sorry, I have no desire whatsoever to see a mass rape. The implication was more than enough, and the violence in the market square was about what I expect from this show.

Loved Odin's arrival to all of Ragnar's sons. I had shivers down my spine, and it gives context to what was a pretty baffling image in last week's episode of Odin in his boat.

[BitterApple]

I agree with whomever upthread said that it might be time to start putting the first generation characters to rest. Helga wanting another baby at this stage in her life is so random. Did it not occur to her that the young girl might have a father who was still living or other relatives to care for her? I don't think picking up a kid in the market like she was a stray puppy was the most level-headed thing to do. 

I don't know if it's because Ragnar's gone or what, but something about the Mediterranean raid is falling flat with me. Hopefully it's just the inevitable letdown from the previous episode and things will pick up, but the production value seems kind of lazy on this story arc. 

[Kalliste]

3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Ragnar's eleventh hour atheism makes little sense in the wake of this episode (though to be honest, it never made much sense). I know that it was at Travis Fimmel's request, but ... well, maybe it's proof that you shouldn't listen to actors. Hirst has always infused this show with mysticism and unexplained phenomena, and since this ends with ODIN HIMSELF rounding up Ragnar's sons, as well as an appearance from Ragnar to Lagertha, it seems pretty clear that there are supernatural/godly forces in this world. 

I don't think it makes Ragnar's loss of belief any less real because we saw Odin appear to his sons. It just suggests that maybe Ragnar was wrong and the gods were actually there.

[Euphony]

5 hours ago, BitterApple said:

 

I don't know if it's because Ragnar's gone or what, but something about the Mediterranean raid is falling flat with me. Hopefully it's just the inevitable letdown from the previous episode and things will pick up, but the production value seems kind of lazy on this story arc. 

While I was watching I kept thinking how much more off putting this raid seemed then any of Ragnar's. I was confused that people thought it was toned down from earlier seasons, because I felt the violence much more. Ragnar's detached fascination with the cultures he was raiding was always a grounding perspective for me. Bjorn doesn't have the same curiosity. And he seems more motivated to rape and pillage and fame, whereas Ragnar seemed mainly interested in learning what made the people and places he raided tick.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Euphony

[Captanne]

I found the Spanish raid to be vastly more disconcerting than any of Ragnar's.  I'm not saying that the Vikings did anything different, but I am saying we saw a lot more of the raping and pillaging up close.  People pleading for their lives only to have them listened to, acknowledged, and then decapitated.  And the rape of the harem was horrific.  Especially the way our "heroes", Bjorn and Rollo* took part.  (Rollo's jokey -- oh well, boys will be boys and I'm one of them! was even worse because he's been in French court for the past number of years.)

ETA:  As for Floki's conversion -- a common thread throughout the episode is that everyone is feeling a disruption in the Force in their own ways.  Floki feels hollow.  Allah speaks to him in a way Christ didn't.  For a million reasons.  Is it hypocritical?  Sure.  (Particularly for those of us who really loved the Athelstan/Ragnar friendship.)  But I don't find it off-putting.  I find it curiously interesting that the show would give us that turn of events for a two dimensional character like Floki.  Good on 'em.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Captanne

[Euphony]

I agree that I have no problem with Floki being moved by Islam . The Christians are shown as blustery and austentatious, surrounding themselves with riches. The Muslims surround themselves in beautiful craftmenship, sure, (part of their appeal to Floki no doubt) but they are shown to be quietly and unshakeably devout. I think Floki has always, in part, been put off by the preachy nature of Christians.

And yes, while people got raped in earlier raids, Ragnar's attitude towards the rapes was more a disinterested acceptance that this was a part of his culture. I got the impression that he considered it a pretty base pursuit in the face of so many interesting things to explore and learn. That is probably his devotion to Lagertha showing, as we know that she hated that part of raiding. Bjorn's "I guess this is where I get my rape on" demeanor was hard to watch.

[pasdetrois]

Quote

Making Loki Polticaly Correct.  It made me sick! 

The old Loki would have killed all those heathens and enjoyed doing it. And would not have thought twice about it.

As I watched I wondered if the writers were being politically correct - being careful not to portray Muslims in a bad light. The entire scenario -- very little reaction by the praying Muslims to the invaders - they didn't even turn around to see who had entered the room -- seemed unrealistic and therefore weirdly off-kilter for the show.

I don't like the sex slave storyline. I understand there were slaves used for sex, but earlier scenes of her enjoying the sex with multiple brothers seemed unrealistic. Ratings grab?

Helga just looked demented wandering through the mayhem, looking for the harem girl while Vikings thrashed all around her.

[benteen]

Helga hasn't become a crazy cat woman so now she becomes one of those crazy women that abducts children.

[Babalooie]

Why are people assuming that Floki has converted to Islam?  Unless I missed something in the three times I've viewed the episode, all I saw was an interest or fascination with the new (to him) form of worship that he was observing.

[Haleth]

On 1/5/2017 at 8:25 AM, benteen said:

Kattegat has become a thriving market town since Ragnar left eight years ago.  Even Lagertha said as much.  I'd say it was being ruled pretty well.

Thriving, yes, but also without any fortification for when the nearest Viking neighbor decides to raid, steal their wealth, and take over.  Lagertha saw that.

16 hours ago, DHDancer said:

The best for me?  Rollo, LUXURIATING in all things Viking!  He was having such a good time with it all.

On one hand I wish Hirst had had Rollo, Duke of Normandy, have second thoughts about raiding the mosque and harem (instead of Floki) since he has been "civilized."  On the other it would make sense for him to have no qualms about raiding a heathen Moorish city.  Floki and Helga both seemed out of character in this episode.

19 hours ago, green said:

As for not having the "hard facts"  We do with the sons of Ragnar.  We have left the mythic age of Ragnar and are now into the real nuts and bolts of chronicled history.

Yeah, but still with a grain of salt.  The priests who recorded the events didn't have a staff of fact checkers.  And Hirst is still handwaving a lot of facts in order to expedite his story.  (Such as Alfred having 3 older brothers.)  That's fine with me as long as he sticks to the important things.

Ecbert sure looked older and weary of life, didn't he?  

When the seer told Lagertha that one of Ragnar's sons would kill her, I immediately thought it would be Magnus, despite Ragnar denying him.  Let Lagertha die in battle as a shield maiden!

Edited January 6, 2017 by Haleth

[nodorothyparker]

7 hours ago, Babalooie said:

Why are people assuming that Floki has converted to Islam?  Unless I missed something in the three times I've viewed the episode, all I saw was an interest or fascination with the new (to him) form of worship that he was observing.

I was wondering the same thing.  He had a moment of fascination with something he hadn't seen before after voicing that he's pretty disillusioned with everything in his life right now.  He didn't sit down to pray with them or actually attempt to learn anything about their faith.  Yes, it could lead to something but I would be very surprised if it did.   As someone in the nonreligious camp myself, I can say I've had moments where I was awestruck by something about a particular belief or way of thinking that were just moments.

Quote

And yes, while people got raped in earlier raids, Ragnar's attitude towards the rapes was more a disinterested acceptance that this was a part of his culture. I got the impression that he considered it a pretty base pursuit in the face of so many interesting things to explore and learn. 

Can't make the multi-quote thing work for me but it was interesting to me as well that they included the harem scene with all of our party seeming to join in because of this.  In the past the show has either ignored the raping completely or very pointedly not made Ragnar or anyone we were clearly supposed to care about a part of it.  (Rollo has always been a very gray character on that front.)  Knut in the early first season or the brothers Harald and Halfdan (I think?) aren't protagonists.  Instead, we got lots of scenes of Ragnar standing on the edges of scenes watching his people almost the same way he was watching the foreigners they were attacking, like he was trying to understand what motivated him.  I always got the sense he was thinking, you know we have sex and bloodshed at home.  This is what you came all this way to do when there are so many other things to see?

Despite all the years he's been on the show, Bjorn sometimes reads very blank and workmanlike in comparison.  He's a Viking and this is what Vikings do.  We know he has his father's curiosity for the unknown or he wouldn't have traveled so far to the Mediterranean.  Yet as in the case of this episode, he can at times seem remarkably incurious. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by nodorothyparker

[Ohwell]

10 hours ago, green said:

Historically he isn't in Paris any more.  He was given a fifedom for his services.  That was his original lure in the deal to flip to the Frankish side and that is what he got.  He is now Duke of the new fiefdom of Normandy (Normandy name comes from Norsemen because of Rollo).  And that is why Bjorn needed his permission to sail his boats along his coastline.

Ok, thanks for that info.  

[Captanne]

I didn't see Floki converting but I did see him positively fascinated.  And, protective of the praying men.  He was reverent.  

This is new behaviour in the face of a religion different from his Viking paganism.  It's a very, very markedly different response than the way he treated Christianity.  

If he does convert, I can say I saw it coming.

If he doesn't convert, I can still say his behaviour is very different than how he responded to the English monks and their worship of Christ.

[nodorothyparker]

The monks in that very first raid mostly ran and hid when the Vikings came.  That was behavior he understood.

I can't remember without going back and looking now if it was Rollo or Floki who hacked the Christ on the cross down off the wall, laughing because even their god was just a dead man hung up to die.  They were all fascinated right off the bat that the Christian god apparently needed so much gold and silver that of course of they stole.  One of the things Floki was stuck on in this episode was that the Muslims had no images of their god and no treasure for him.

Edited January 6, 2017 by nodorothyparker

[MrsR]

No Rollo, would not have spared the musselmen because he was more civilized.

The French HATED the Muslims who used their bases in Spain to raid and grab land in Southern France for centuries and were gearing up for an invasion.  Ultimately cold weather and the machinations and fighting of Charles Martel pushed them out and away from France. The  French razed every trace of them in the end.

[Ohwell]

23 minutes ago, Grashka said:

On a completly shallow and silly note - I thought Odin was hot. Well, at least the half of his face which still contained an eye.

I thought it was just me.  ; )

[nodorothyparker]

On an equally shallow and silly note, I was extremely taken with his very deep voice.

[slf]

11 hours ago, green said:

Was she buried in Seville?  And is this community the basis of Hirst's idea to get Floki interested in Islam all of a sudden?

No, Sweden (I'd originally thought Norway; Muslim artifacts have been found there, too) in the 9th century. I mean, it's a pretty ring made of silver and colored glass that was originally mistaken for amethyst. So it's also quite possible it was just traded since colored glass was an exotic commodity back then. It's weird though because it didn't seem like her grave was anything special and that ring wouldn't have been cheap. 

I don't read interviews with Hirst so I'm not sure if he's using that community as inspiration. I know many members of that community had been raiders so it's possible. They eventually settled in Seville and became farmers famous for their cheese.

Vikings also had contact with Muslims via what's now Russia and by becoming basically mercenaries hired by Muslims/Muslim armies. They were despised by some Muslim communities for being raiders but others valued their relationship with the Vikings because they traded with them and only really knew the Vikings as merchants. I've been trying to read a little about their relationship since most of my knowledge came from The 13th Warrior, lol. 

[MrsR]

The Vikings traded heavily with the Muslims especially for iron. Watch the documentary The Secrets of the Viking Sword

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6woycxQzA0