S01.E07: Trompe L'Oeil

[arc]

3 minutes ago, ennui said:

That's how Maeve starts every day. It's like Dolores and her can of milk. Imho, both of those men are hosts.

That's the guy who bumped into Teddy in the pilot, William in the second ep and some rando who shot Grizzly Adams immediately last ep without fumbling. Maeve gets out on the street every day right around when that bump happens, but the bumpee doesn't have to be a host. And I think the most recent guy, who fumbled with his gun, has to be a guest.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

What Repercussions Will Follow The Climax Of This Week's Westworld?

This story has more echoes than an underground bunker for making secret robots!

[numbnut]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I'm still fairly confused on exactly what is happening though.  The hosts are becoming self-aware.  I assume that's Ford's doing, through Bernard?  What is Ford's ultimate goal?  To create a world of self-thinking robots?  Why?

Ford has a God complex. That's my take. I think Arnold is making the robots aware so they can be free while Ford wants them under his control.

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

Okay another thing (too many things for me to keep track of this episode), how did Theresa not know Bernard was a robot?  I get that they are real enough to fool you in a social setting, but when they are intimate with you?  All the biological things like a heartbeat, breathing, sweating, body odor, gas, blemishes, skin flaking, saliva, stomach growling, body temperature.  Some of those things you could simulate to a certain extent.  But surely they can't all be simulated to such an exacting degree that someone couldn't tell the difference between a robot and a human.

That's the premise of the show. The hosts are supposed to be indistinguishable from humans, especially after switching from robotics to (whatever they're using to mimic) flesh and blood.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I'm still fairly confused on exactly what is happening though.  The hosts are becoming self-aware.  I assume that's Ford's doing, through Bernard?  What is Ford's ultimate goal?  To create a world of self-thinking robots?  Why?

I am not sure myself but I thought this episode put everything into clearer focus. First, I don't think there is an Arnold. We have been told there is no pictures of him and the picture that Ford showed to Bernard was of his dad. Which Bernard recognized when he saw the bot Ford Family.  Absent an Arnold... who would be working to bring the bots around? I can see only Ford. I feel like for a mad genius creating "life" or creating a world of self thinking robots (that he could control) would be worth killing for.  If there is no Arnold it is entirely possible Ford has been working on self thinking robots from the start and it is only now that he is realizing his dream.

I am unsure as to what the maze is about. It would be great if it all tied in. 

William and Dolores.. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz epic fail. The character told me how he "found himself" but I didn't see any of that up the screen. Their story is not compelling at all.

[parandroid]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

Okay another thing (too many things for me to keep track of this episode), how did Theresa not know Bernard was a robot?  I get that they are real enough to fool you in a social setting, but when they are intimate with you?  All the biological things like a heartbeat, breathing, sweating, body odor, gas, blemishes, skin flaking, saliva, stomach growling, body temperature.  Some of those things you could simulate to a certain extent.  But surely they can't all be simulated to such an exacting degree that someone couldn't tell the difference between a robot and a human.

Well.....the premise of the park is that their robots are good enough for you to be fooled by them even when you are that intimate with them. Its not like Teresa is the only human who is shown to have sex with a robot.....

[MrWhyt]

10 minutes ago, BooBear said:

First, I don't think there is an Arnold. We have been told there is no pictures of him and the picture that Ford showed to Bernard was of his dad.

The hosts can't see certain things, like the door in the cabin. What if Arnold was in the picture and Bernard had been programmed not to see him

[numbnut]

I don't know who directed the ep but that horseback chase was lame. The tighter shots were stiff/clunky and it didn't look like they were riding very fast. It got better when the Native Americans showed up to create chaos but by then the scene was over.

Edited November 14, 2016 by numbnut

[ennui]

10 minutes ago, numbnut said:

it didn't look like they were riding very fast

Maybe the actors are beginner riders, and maybe the insurance company put restrictions on them.

I can't remember which show it was, but the production company had to teach all of the actors how to ride. None of them had been on a horse before. They spent a week at horse camp.

[bmoore4026]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

Why did they need to lobotomize Clementine?  Is this just the first step to putting her into Basement Hall of Naked Warriors?  So did Abernathy dad and Milk Drinking Shooter also get lobotomized?  I don't understand the need for it, I don't understand why they can't just turn them off and deactivate them.

Yeah, she's going into Cold Storage.  Her comment of moving to same place cool foreshadow this.  I think the hosts are lobotomized because the staff and security can't take any chances of a host springing to life and attacking.  Remember when Maeve first woke up and threatened Felix and Sylvester with a scalpel?  And you saw how Clementine beat the shit out of that one Matrix-y looking host and then not shutting down when Chief of Security Hemsworth (don't know his character's name) ordered her to.  The lobotomies are a safety precaution.

Edited November 14, 2016 by bmoore4026

[Dobian]

47 minutes ago, parandroid said:

Well.....the premise of the park is that their robots are good enough for you to be fooled by them even when you are that intimate with them. Its not like Teresa is the only human who is shown to have sex with a robot.....

There's a difference between enjoying a terrific simulation and actually being fooled that the robot is human.  The guest knows the host they are with is robotic, they are not being fooled, but can suspend disbelief because it feels so real and is a lot of fun.  But for a person to be actually fooled that the robot is human is a whole other matter.  Because when you are with someone daily and are very close and intimate with them, you are going to notice all those subtle things that a guest looking to have their jollies isn't even thinking about.

[arc]

2 minutes ago, Dobian said:

There's a difference between enjoying a terrific simulation and actually being fooled that the robot is human.  The guest knows the host they are with is robotic, they are not being fooled, but can suspend disbelief because it feels so real and is a lot of fun.  But for a person to be actually fooled that the robot is human is a whole other matter.  Because when you are with someone daily and are very close and intimate with them, you are going to notice all those subtle things that a guest looking to have their jollies isn't even thinking about.

William knows all that and yet he fully suspended disbelief in this episode.

[Netfoot]

6 minutes ago, Dobian said:

But for a person to be actually fooled that the robot is human is a whole other matter.

It is an axiom of the show.  Hosts are externally indistinguishable from humans.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, charmed1 said:

Is he a really a cheating pile of shit and is she really a home wrecking tramp if she's a robot home wrecking tramp?

I think the answer depends a lot on what William does when he gets home.

If he returned home and immediately called off the engagement because he realized he wasn't really in love with his fiance how would William be any different than all the leads in a romance flick who are about to married to someone else (usually someone 'safe') and then runs headlong in their unexpected 'dangerous' soulmate?

A lot also depends on how the story/season ends for them as well. If its happening in the present, Dolores gets freewill and he still goes back to Logan's sister then he's probably a cheating pile (to pull a Jimmy Carter-ism, he cheated in his heart even if it was with a robot). If he breaks off the engagement and sticks with Dolores despite all the complications that poses I'd say he's not a cheating pile... just the protagonist of a romance flick who didn't know what they really wanted until they met their soulmate.

If its a flashback for TMIB that ends with Dolores being "killed" and reset so she doesn't remember him then he could realize its wasn't real, consider it a learning experience and spend 'til death do us part' faithful to Logan's sister as a result (i.e. not a cheating pile) -or- he could be utterly heartbroken and marry Logan's sister as a consolation prize (i.e. cheating pile) -or- be heartbroken and break it off with Logan's sister because of what he's realized about himself (i.e. not a cheating pile).

The point is... I think its still very up in the air at this point (though I've got a rough theory forming).

2 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

The hosts can't see certain things, like the door in the cabin. What if Arnold was in the picture and Bernard had been programmed not to see him

My hunch there is that Arnold was in the picture and he looked just like Bernard does now (and the estranged/divorced wife and dead son were actually Arnold's backstory that Ford ported into Bernard). It would make make for a rather twisted parallel that Arnold made Ford hosts that looked/acted like his lost family and then Ford made a host that looked/acted like Arnold.

[ennui]

49 minutes ago, arc said:

William knows all that and yet he fully suspended disbelief in this episode.

Because Dolores has emotions. She cries. She gets scared. She's passionate. She's doesn't seem to be an android. Yes, I know these are all programmed into her, but I can see why William is forgetting the intellectual side of himself.

[Ellaria]

A comment on sex with a robot...

1 hour ago, parandroid said:

Well.....the premise of the park is that their robots are good enough for you to be fooled by them even when you are that intimate with them. Its not like Teresa is the only human who is shown to have sex with a robot.....

Yes, these robots are nearly indistinguishable from humans. Knowing that, it would seem that a human would not notice or would not care if the robot that they were screwing wasn't exactly right...especially if it was a one-and-done romp.

59 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Because when you are with someone daily and are very close and intimate with them, you are going to notice all those subtle things that a guest looking to have their jollies isn't even thinking about.

Now, I think that this is a good point. Bernard and Theresa were together at work, at night...plenty of time to notice that Bernard didn't burp (or whatever). However, the show chose to ignore it. Maybe Bernard is super-special robot. Maybe Theresa isn't very observant. Regardless, none of it matters because I'm fairly certain that she will reappear as a robot before too long. 

1 hour ago, bmoore4026 said:

Yeah, she's going into Cold Storage.  Her comment of moving to same place cool foreshadow this.  I think the hosts are lobotomized because the staff and security can't take any chances of a host springing to life and attacking.  Remember when Maeve first woke up and threatened Felix and Sylvester with a scalpel?  And you saw how Clementine beat the shit out of that one Matrix-y looking host and then not shutting down when Chief of Security Hemsworth (don't know his character's name) ordered her to.  The lobotomies are a safety precaution.

The lobotomies appear to be a safety precaution. I think that Host Cold Storage will prove to be a very bad idea. 

[ennui]

1 minute ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Bernard and Theresa were together at work, at night...plenty of time to notice that Bernard didn't burp (or whatever).

Speaking for myself, I would never notice if a co-worker didn't burp. 

[AuntTora]

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Maybe Bernard is super-special robot.

I think he is. He said something like, but I can't be one.... He knows everything about their limitations and nature, and until Ford put the whammy on him, was even expressing some shock at realizing he was a host, in a very human way. I have to go back and re-watch the episode with the conversation between Bernard and Ford in Ford's office, in light of this new info.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

My hunch there is that Arnold was in the picture and he looked just like Bernard does now (and the estranged/divorced wife and dead son were actually Arnold's backstory that Ford ported into Bernard). It would make make for a rather twisted parallel that Arnold made Ford hosts that looked/acted like his lost family and then Ford made a host that looked/acted like Arnold.

yes I suspect Bernard = Robo-Arnold.

[Ellaria]

17 minutes ago, ennui said:

Speaking for myself, I would never notice if a co-worker didn't burp. 

 

I'm pretty sure that you understand the point that I was making. Regardless, the show chose to not address it so it is irrelevant.

I find it hard to believe that none of the humans in the office question whether anyone else could be a robot. I imagine that could be a fun guessing game amongst the staff.

[Netfoot]

18 minutes ago, ennui said:

Speaking for myself, I would never notice if a co-worker didn't burp. 

Personally, I maintain a database in which I record the date, time, volume and "flavor" of coworkers farts.  

[sneakyflute]

Bernard is a robot clone of Arnold. The scenes that appear to be depicting Bernard interviewing Dolores are actually flashbacks to Arnold talking to her 30 years ago.

And this further supports the William = MiB theory

 

[Ms.Moon]

I was blown away by this episode so much was revealed by there are still so many questions like who was messing with Meave's programming? I am agog like two gogs because I did not really think that Bernard was a host but I have to put nothing past Ford.  I know I was correct to not trust anyone not Ford and not the board I am on the side of the robots but that is kind of complicated as well because there is alot of undercurrent and we don't know who is really pulling the strings here.  

[dgpolo]

29 minutes ago, ennui said:

Speaking for myself, I would never notice if a co-worker didn't burp. 

I think you know intellectually, that your co-workers burp and fart and sneeze etc. But if they don't do it I'm really not sure you'd notice, or I would notice, I should say. I doubt I'd think 'you know, so and so hasn't burped today, how odd' If I thought about it at all I'd probably think they were just not doing it -now- as in, they are doing it when I'm not paying attention or when they leave the room or something. I think we're much more likely to notice something that someone -does- rather than something someone -doesn't do-.

[arc]

13 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm pretty sure that you understand the point that I was making. Regardless, the show chose to not address it so it is irrelevant.

I get what @ennui meant. A burp, etc, is a disruption from the normal routine where we all don't burp. It's noticeable. It's much harder to notice that a co-worker doesn't have these disruptions, and more so when it's the department lead who floats in and out of all his various underlings' work rather than working side by side with someone day in and day out.

Edited November 15, 2016 by arc

[Ellaria]

3 minutes ago, arc said:

I get what @ennui meant. A burp, etc, is a disruption from the normal routine where we all don't burp. It's noticeable. It's much harder to notice that a co-worker doesn't have these disruptions, and more so when it's the department lead who floats in and out of all his various underlings' work rather than working side by side with someone day in and day out.

I was being sarcastic with my burp comment but that seems to be getting lost in over-analysis.

[Jack Shaftoe]

20 hours ago, Amelie06 said:

I don't care about William and Delores. I'm really trying. But they are so dull. And who keeps curling Delores's hair? William blathering on about how "real" this experience was irked me. He knows he is talking to a robot. He knows he is at a theme park. Calm down, sir. Stop acting crazy. Why does everyone want to find deeper meaning in this weird ass park? Who goes to Disneyworld to figure out what the Small World ride "really means?" I mean, technically, Delores is at work! You don't see people deciding that their time spent with "Cinderella" is the realest thing to ever happen to them. Maybe Delos's game is to introduce LSD to the guests and see the effects in stressful or sexy situations.

I am starting to think William might be a (not so subtle) dig at obsessed fans who take fiction way too seriously. He has been in the park for what, a few days and he is he already all "It's a life I don't have to pretend". Dude, please, you are pretending all the time that these robots are bona fide cowboys. It didn't help that the dialogue between him and Dolores was all kinds of corny in this episode. The only way to salvage that scene is if it was a bunch of crap he told Dolores just to get laid but that doesn't seem to have been the writers' intention.

Honestly, I am really not a fan of "X was a robot all along" plots. I didn't like them much in BSG but at least there that was quite inevitable because it was an integral part of the premise of the show. Here, it comes off as something of a gimmick, especially with Ford being so cartoonishly evil and everyone being so incredibly stupid to allow him to play god for so long without even forcing him to have backups of his software.

I also hate it when characters are so artificially vague about their plans, Theresa and Charlotte's dialogue was like that: "Hey, you know we have a really great plan about using the hosts. We will talk about it but won't mention what it is because it's not the season finale yet, sorry."

Honestly, if they kill and/or make Elsie into a robot, I am probably out. Too many asshole characters trying to outwit each other for arcane reasons and too many holes in the setting. Maeve is still awesome but for the life of me I don't understand why the two technicians let her boss them around. Ford defeats the board or vice versa? Who cares, they all seem great big jerks anyway...

Also, if the board has been trying to learn Ford's secret for 35 years they have done a spectacularly terrible job. How hard is to, I don't know, put a bug on the man? Or have people follow him to see if he is hiding something? He has a whole mini robot factory that these morons (apparently) know nothing about. Sure, he is an evil genius but if so much is at stake and you can dedicate huge resources to the goal I think you should be able to outwit one man unless you are profoundly stupid.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Jack Shaftoe

[gatopretoNYC]

2 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Yeah, she's going into Cold Storage.  Her comment of moving to some place cool foreshadow this. 

Oooh, good catch.

[arc]

29 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I was being sarcastic with my burp comment but that seems to be getting lost in over-analysis.

I thought I acknowledged that when I said the general principle is that we don't notice a lack of disruptions of any sort?

[feverfew]

10 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I agree with anyone who's take on Tess a Thompson's character is a big bowl of WTF. First of all, she can't even be 30. This means she went from,. presumably, entry level job out of college at Delos at 21, so basically an intern, the HEAD OF THE BOARD of a multi-billion dollar corporation inside of 9 years, when in fact, it'd be impressive to just be a department manager in that time frame. The only way to be head of a board at that age is to invent the company itself. I'm all for power plays from evil corporate villains on television and in movies, but why does the female head of the board's power play need to be LITERALLY showing her pussy to Theresa? I mean her power play is answering the door naked. I love naked women, I love THIS woman naked (I'm a guy, sue me), but it defangs the character and reveals a lack of imagination on the writers' part. Sure, a legitimate power play meeting isn't as titillating, but it makes the character more interesting. Find a different reason to get her naked, as far as I'm concerned, but her meeting with Theresa was stupid.

As @DarkRaichu said, she might be the daughter of the CEO of Delos or a close relative (would make sense to be Logan's daughter if you buy into the two timeline theory - they have the same hedonistic callousness). Actually, for me it's the only way it'll make sense - Tessa Thompson simply is too young. Her age completely threw me in the last episode; I've been commending the show on its use of age appropriate actors and here some head of the board, straight from a CW show shows up instead. Imagine her played by Angela Bassett instead - that I could buy! So - family company it must be.

Of course, as @jeansheridan mentioned, the dissonance could be on purpose. The dichotomy between Charlotte Hale and Teresa Cullen - one a self-serving, cruel woman with disdain for her employes, who sees the hosts as nothing but pure machinery to be used and abused, and the other a woman who's shown she does not agree morally on the company's use of the robots (oh, the sad irony!) and who by all account (Bernard's account, at least) is conflicted about her role as overseer of the park - is hopefully on purpose; the difference in age just a visual marker.

Speaking of Teresa, I really hope this isn't the end of Sidse Babett Knudsen's involvement in the show. As an actor I've loved her for a long time - she's so expressive. On the outside, Teresa Cullen is a cold character, but she's given her a sense an inner conflict I find far more compelling than all the nudity combined on the show.

5 hours ago, Dobian said:

Of course it still underscores one of the show's main themes where the brutalization of these apparently sentient beings is okay because they're just "machines", which is a good one to explore.

and

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

It is an axiom of the show.  Hosts are externally indistinguishable from humans.

I've been thinking a lot about good vs. evil lately. I had a conversation with a writer friend of mine, who writes fantasy for young adults, and we ended up talking about his latest novel, a miltonesque story. In it, the Devil tells his own version of The Fall of Adam and Eve where he's not the villain. The story is the same, down to the minutia, but in his own eyes he did nothing wrong. He's simpy doing what is necessary. If that makes him the devil, so be it. By all moral standards Ford is a monster. He kills a woman to further his own agenda. The line between humans and hosts is - no matter what he says - already blurred for Ford. To Charlotte Hale they are hairdryers, washing machines and dildos. But is he the lesser evil? Charlotte feels no moral compunction about using either hosts nor humans to further hers. Is she more of a devil because of it?

The scene where Clementine is brutalized and then brutalizes in turn made me feel sick. It made Teresa look like she wanted to throw up. Yet Ford and Charlotte both looked almost bored.

The relativism of evil is fascinating: fascinating and horrorfying. This latest episode really drove it home for me: If there's no way to distinguish between hosts and humans, the moral implication is that we (they) have a duty to treat them as humans. To treat them as we would treat ourselves. Mind control is no excuse. Because they are for all intent and purposes humans. A mirror of ourselves. William is falling in love with Dolores, not because he has bought into the story he is imagining about himself, but because to herself she is real. To the extend Ford can feel anything for anybody, the hosts are real...ish. As his children they are his to do with as he pleases, my writer-friend's version of God. A God indistinguishable from the Devil.

[RealityCreator]

Quote

I wonder if we find out Elsie's fate next week.  I expect she's still alive and maybe with Arnold.

If we didn't see her die onscreen, we can't assume she's dead.  I like your theory, Dobian, that she may be with Arnold.
 

Quote

 

Besides that, do we know if the 1976 movie Futureworld is considered canon?

 

 

The showrunners have made it clear in interviews that the original movie is not cannon, so it's likely that Futureworld isn't either, but I haven't read anything specific about Futureworld's relationship to the series.

[blackwing]

I really hope that William is not the younger Man in Black.  I would have a hard time believing that the snivelling shit that is William would grow up into the badass Ed Harris.  I hate the actor who plays William?  Why couldn't Ben Barnes have played William instead?  Because he has brown hair and brown eyes and therefore fits the "black hat" role better?  I don't buy it.  Plus, William's hair looks dyed blond.

I admit that MIB's seemingly having a history with Dolores points in that direction though.  Although, how sad, he has been coming to the park for 30 years and still hasn't solved the maze?

[Quilt Fairy]

First, Entertainment Weekly has just reported that Westworld has been renewed for a second season, but given the scope of the filming S2 probably won't air until 2018.

Second, in reading the EW articles that have been linked to upthread - specifically the Jeffrey Wright interview and the Episode 7 interview with the showrunners - there are several nuggets that are quite spoilery, regarding:

Teresa's fate -

Spoiler

according to Wright, the actress is only in 7 episodes, which means she won't reappear as a host

Clementine's fate -

Spoiler

according to the showrunners, Clementine has been effectively lobotomized and will not be the same character if she returns

and the location of the park -

Spoiler

Nolan says he doesn't think the park is in the Western U.S.  

[Netfoot]

36 minutes ago, feverfew said:

If there's no way to distinguish between hosts and humans, the moral implication is that we (they) have a duty to treat them as humans.

I disagree.

If you have someone before you, and you can't tell if that someone is human or robot, then obviously, you must treat them as human.  However, if you know they are not human, then I can see nothing wrong with treating them as the machines that they are.

[gatopretoNYC]

57 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 I would have a hard time believing that the snivelling shit that is William would grow up into the badass Ed Harris.  I hate the actor who plays William? 

Quote

Plus, William's hair looks dyed blond.

That's Jimmie Simpson's real hair color. Here he is as I will always fondly think of him - Lyle the Intern. :)

[DarkRaichu]

14 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

 

Teresa's fate -

  Reveal hidden contents

according to Wright, the actress is only in 7 episodes, which means she won't reappear as a host

 

Spoiler

It seems consistent with ep 8 trailer.  Why show her body to the Delos board member if the plan was to bring Theresa back?

[gwhh]

6 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

What Repercussions Will Follow The Climax Of This Week's Westworld?

This story has more echoes than an underground bunker for making secret robots!

Now I know way my company HR department acts so robotic. 

[locomoco]

3 hours ago, dgpolo said:

I think you know intellectually, that your co-workers burp and fart and sneeze etc. But if they don't do it I'm really not sure you'd notice, or I would notice, I should say.

Well... MY co-workers know that I burp and fart... (bless 'em)

[feverfew]

47 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I disagree.

If you have someone before you, and you can't tell if that someone is human or robot, then obviously, you must treat them as human.  However, if you know they are not human, then I can see nothing wrong with treating them as the machines that they are.

But what about sentient machines? A sentient being that might have been created, not born, but a machine that feels, dreams, fears and yearns as we do? You might make the case for the people in the show who do not know, what we know, but Felix? William? Ford? Also; both Ford and Charlotte Hale treat human beings like they treat the hosts: Like something that is easily replacable, something to be used and discarded at will. They might be more circumspect about it, but in a sense they don't distinguish between hosts and humans either.

I think what I was (clumsily) trying to say was, that if you have a being that is virtually indistinguishable from us, who looks, feels, sounds like us, and we still treat them as lesser, as machines; what does that say about us, morally? There is something downright horrorfying in creating a mirror image of ourselves, to use and discard as we see fit. In that sense I agree with Lee Sizemore: What's the point of creating something so close to human beings if you insist on treating them only as toys? That's what I meant by moral implications :)

[gwhh]

This is a great show. But it would be awersome. If they cut back on the foul language and all the rape and beating up of woman underlining sub plots!  Anyone else thinking that?  

 

Is it necessary to pigeon hold every corporate executive as a foul mouth, Moral less, psychopath who only cares about money and makes every decision seem dark and deep. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by gwhh

[FemmyV]

Kudos to all who pegged Bernard early on. I didn't want to believe, so at least I got to be a little surprised. Jeffrey Wright, you breaking my heart.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if Tess got on the board via nepotism and, considering her behavior, I agree Logan's a great candidate.

About the 5 year roll out ... I don't know how committed I'm going to stay. Westerns were never my genre, really, it's the haunted house that attracts me, and if it's going to take that long to roll out, that probably means this season is going to end on a major downer a la, Ned's head on a pike.

[jeansheridan]

Quote

I think Delos decided to up their game. Theresa and what happened with Clementine are all one big distraction. This isn't the first time Ford has murdered an agent of the board and sent back a cylon. But Ford's iron grip on the park has a weakspot - namely himself. He thinks Delos will attempt the same kind of ploy they have tried in the past again. But they've instead decided to try a multipronged approach. They send in Theresa through the front door with the full official backing of Delos. Her job is to be obvious and to die. She, not Clementine, is the blood sacrifice. Which the board member told her to her face.

That entire scene was not the board member being sloppy. It was the board member deliberately feeding Ford misinformation. She brought a host to her room. Knowing they log everything. Then she spilled the entire plan in front of him. That is also why the board sent someone that looks like they left college yesterday - they're counting on Ford underestimating her. (And she may be somewhat expendable)

I admire your speculation a lot partially because it makes Ford vulnerable which a good villain needs moments of or else it is no fun. It also makes that whole scene feel less gross and stupid.  

[huahaha]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

Okay another thing (too many things for me to keep track of this episode), how did Theresa not know Bernard was a robot? 

That was the surprising reveal to me. Bernard was obviously a robot, and I thought Theresa referred to it the first time we saw them as lovers. Bernard speculated that the hosts talk to each other for the sake of practice, and Theresa said something like, "Is that why you're doing this? For practice?" I assumed that meant she knew but kept engaging him anyway.

I also thought that was the reason Ford sat Theresa down, as her boss. Like, "You're being unprofessional. Stop screwing the robots. They've got other things to do." Guess I was wrong there!

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I really hope that William is not the younger Man in Black.  I would have a hard time believing that the snivelling shit that is William would grow up into the badass Ed Harris.

If William is the younger Man in Black, that is some crappy casting. No amount of plastic surgery could change Jimmi's (William's) bone structure into Ed Harris's. Ed is rugged with a large jaw and substantial nose. Jimmi has soft features and a receding, dainty chin. Aside from looks, there are fundamental differences in their natures. If William turned evil, it would be squirrelly and conflicted. The Man in Black is completely self-assured. Ben Barnes is a much better fit for that.

Edited November 15, 2016 by huahaha

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, feverfew said:

But what about sentient machines?

In my post, I was speaking of machines that simulate sentience, as opposed to machines that actually are sentient.

If a machine were to transition the divide between pretend-sentience and actual sentience, I believe such a machine should be treated the same as any other sentient being.

Naturally, when the time comes, there will be problems.   First will probably be legal.  When someone's very expensive robot declares itself sentient and demands its freedom, will the courts side with the new lifeform?  Or the property owner?  And what if the robot looks like a dog instead of a human?  Can it still demand equal rights?   Can a sentient robot be a citizen?  (Shaddup, Johnny-5!)  Does a citizen robot have the right to demand free mechanical healthcare under Britain's NHS?  If it seeks employment, can it be required to work more hours than a human, just because it can?  With a possibly unlimited lifespan, when will it be allowed to retire?

And so on...

Edited November 15, 2016 by Netfoot

[LittleIggy]

I just have to say that the actress playing Clementine has the most stunning eyes. Just gorgeous!

Wonder what happened to Logan.

[jeansheridan]

11 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THe hazmat suits are definitely fluid-related. THat Mariposa is the scene of Escaton's heist presumably daily, it's a place where guests interact with hosts for the first time, so there's probably like cheating card game shootouts, stabbings, etc, and Teddy's usually there. The place has to be crawling with gross fluids more often than not. 

But they let their high-paying guests near all that blood?  It just seems like a very odd choice to me, the random hazmat suits.  And it's such an obvious inconsistency I hope it will be explained.  Because I think we saw Elsie turn off Dolores after one of those street shootouts in the first or second episodes (Dolores was dying on top of Teddy) but she didn't have a suit on and there was presumably blood everywhere.  

[henripootel]

9 hours ago, arc said:

William knows all that and yet he fully suspended disbelief in this episode.

See, I don't think he is.  He's perfectly well aware of Dolores' nature, he just, for the moment, prefers it.  This is not a huge stretch psychologically - there are already folks who prefer the company of inanimate or barely-animate human dolls.  And if you think this is the fringe-end of human weirdness, remember too that tons of pet owners anthropomorphize their relationships with their animals, ascribing to them feelings and attitudes they're unlikely to actually possess.  I mean I'm sure your cat likes you, but it's as a fellow cat, not like a fellow human would.  I know plenty of folks who actually prefer this relationship to most all others, and I think William is like this.  It isn't that he's kidding himself about Dolores, it's just that the dynamics of this relationship appeal to him.  He did say that he feels like he's been pretending all his life right up to the moment when he came to this fake world of manufactured beings.  That's kinda fucked up, and finally (thank god), a bit interesting.   Willam and Dolores' relationship hasn't been nearly as spellbinding as I think they're supposed to be.

[thuganomics85]

Man, an episode featuring a shootout on horseback, complete with Confederate soldiers and Native Americans, and that ends up actually being the least interesting thing about this episode!

So, yeah, Bernard is a host.  It was brought up enough that it didn't surprise me, but as soon as he asked "What door?", I knew what was going down.  Great reveal and seeing just how far off the deep end Ford is.  He really seems to be a megalomaniac, who thrives on controlling his hosts and Westword, and will not relinquish his power, no matter what the cost.  And in this case, it was Theresa.  Even before the reveal, I had a feeling she was going to be making out of that "trip" alive.  I kind of think she should have just risked it and try to flee, even if would have probably still likely ended with Ford just going "Bernard, attack!"  I do think that the host that was being created could end up being a version of her, since it would be a way to keep the actress around, and Ford already seemed to have this lined up.  

Either way, I can't wait to see more of this!  Anthony Hopkins was chilling here and Jeffery Wright was fantastic as always, flipping between confusion and then the way he just casually took of his jacket, tie, and glasses to kill someone he only had just been dating a few episodes ago.  Cold!  I do wonder what the backstory is about him and if he is based on someone else (Arnold?), or just a pure creation of Ford.  If it's the latter, it's kind of low of Ford to create him a backstory where his son died, but on the other hand, he let him be married to Gina Torres, so.... 50/50?

I'm guessing Clementine is being sent off to storage?  Since that actress is also a regular, I wonder if they'll still find ways to work her back in.

While I still want to know what kind of power she has to make Felix and Sylvester so afraid of her and not just deactivate her, Maeve continues to be one of, if not the best thing.  Thandie Newton is just getting better and better each week, and might be my favorite of the show, which is really saying something, since I pretty much think Evan Rachel Wood, Jeffery Wright, Ed Harris, and Anthony Hopkins are delivering flawless performances as well. But Newton is just something else here.  Just pure brilliance.

I like Tessa Thompson, but I agree that I'm not quite sure if I buy her as Charlotte.  I guess I can look past the age thing since I'm sure it is possible to acquire power at a young age; even if it is rare; but I guess I feel like she's suppose to be representing The Board, who is Ford's biggest threat, and I just see it.  They just needed an actress who I can buy going toe-to-toe against Anthony Hopkins, but I can't see that yet, even though I really like her.

Hector makes a return, only to just be around to be Charlotte's sex toy, and Rodrigo Santoro gets to spend time in the special chair, where all host actors have to get naked, and be interrogated by Anthony Hopkins and/or Jeffery Wright.

I do hope they pick up the Dolores/William plot soon.  Wood is fantastic and I like Jimmi Simpson enough in the role, but they were a bit dull in this episode.  But it seems they are close to whatever Dolores is looking forward.

It didn't even occur to me until after the credits, that there was no Man in Black or Teddy.  I love both characters, but this really shows how stacked the cast is.

Doubt Elise is dead.  I'm sure her fate will be revealed before the season is out. 

[phoenyx]

Perhaps the following article has already been brought up by someone, but just in case it hasn't been, I think it's well worth taking a look at. I don't agree with all of it, but there's certainly a lot of interesting information in it...

‘Westworld’ Spoiler Review: 10 Questions From ‘Trompe L’Oeil’ | Slashfilm

Edited November 15, 2016 by phoenyx

[gatopretoNYC]

Great in-depth article, phoenyx.

You might want to edit the link, as it goes to the last page, not the first. 

[phoenyx]

19 minutes ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Great in-depth article, phoenyx.

You might want to edit the link, as it goes to the last page, not the first. 

Glad you like it too, and done :-)