S01.E05: Contrapasso

[Bill1978]

32 minutes ago, grawlix said:

I'm think slipperypete refers to "Automated" or "Automatic" Dialog Replacement.  Otherwise known as looping.

I always thought it stood for Additional Dialogue Recording. Like they filmed a scene and for some reason the  words weren't picked up cause maybe the wind was a bit too much or some other glitch and the actors go in to dub their lines back in so they can be heard. Or after filming they changed the script and cheaper to dub over the line than to refilm

Edited November 1, 2016 by Bill1978

[FemmyV]

Another checking in, with no issues about the nudity. It's a great reminder of how the park's human employees view the hosts as objects, with no need for modesty during tuning sessions. Anyway the human body really is a beautiful thing - why do we have to leave all the action to porn?

Speaking of, kind of, what seemed weird about the orgy for me was, how did they happen to have this palace-like set in the middle of the tiny border town? It wasn't the orgy, it was the total break of the containing realities the characters were in, that I thought was odd.

Not sure how I feel about the separate timelines. 

Have we not considered the idea that Arnold = Wyatt, somehow? I don't know .... Maybe Arnold faked his death by leaving a convincing bot as his corpse, and went to live in West World, laying low. Shrugs 

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Speaking of, kind of, what seemed weird about the orgy for me was, how did they happen to have this palace-like set in the middle of the tiny border town? It wasn't the orgy, it was the total break of the containing realities the characters were in, that I thought was odd.

Exactly what I thought when I saw those 3 girls with golden body paint.  The confederado general's first instinct should have been to shoot those weird aliens :D

[Seppuku]

My apologies if some of my comments have been made already; few things:

1) there are definitely (at least) two timelines; this is especially shown (implied) some of Dolores' scenes.  In the train scene, the camera shifts at the end, and there is no one where William and Lawrence were/should be sitting (as she says "I'm coming")... This clearly implies she is re-treading a prior trip

2) Not sure about MIB being William (likely); but MIB is definitely NOT Logan.  He does not look like what an old/ages Logan would look like (the coloring, features, eye colors, etc. are all wrong and you gotta think they souls cast this better if Logan is young MIB/Ed Harris)

3) speaking of which, any one catches the precious of future episodes? In one scene they had (I believe) Logan being handled as a host? WTF?

[Adultosaurus]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

Exactly what I thought when I saw those 3 girls with golden body paint.  The confederado general's first instinct should have been to shoot those weird aliens :D

But BOOBS...that's why he didn't.

[arc]

I think we'd speculated in previous threads that maybe Wyatt had been around before but was only recently integrated into, say, Teddy's backstory. But TMIB said in this ep that Wyatt was new.

I did speculate that Wyatt is a Ford creation designed to allude to Arnold, that maybe "Wyatt" was Arnold's last name. Ford made a big deal about the bicameral mind theory, and then Wyatt was introduced as someone who hears voices. But I don't think Wyatt is a legit human Arnold. Between Ford and the control room's near-omniscience, I would be surprised if even a park co-founder could elude detection for 34+ years.

Couple of stray-related thoughts just occurred to me. If the stray could have communicated with a satellite with a laser, then satellites or high-flying spy planes could take surveillance photos of Westworld. Also, who put an implant in the stray? At a minimum there's a mole among the livestock techs.

3 minutes ago, Seppuku said:

2) Not sure about MIB being William (likely); but MIB is definitely NOT Logan.  He does not look like what an old/ages Logan would look like (the coloring, features, eye colors, etc. are all wrong and you gotta think they souls cast this better if Logan is young MIB/Ed Harris)

Logan wears his gun holster the same way as MIB. William wears his knife and gun holsters on opposite hips from MIB.

[okerry]

20 minutes ago, Seppuku said:

3) speaking of which, any one catches the precious of future episodes? In one scene they had (I believe) Logan being handled as a host? WTF?

No - that was Hector. The two do look alike, but it was definitely Hector in that scene.

[AuntiePam]

2 hours ago, candall said:

I'm kind of surprised at the recapper and others who are tsk-tsk'ing about the nudity.  You know when nudity loses its prurience factor?  When there's a lot of it.  Nudist community members don't associate it with sexuality.  On nude beaches, even the biggest gigglers and pointers don't need (tooo) much time to settle down and stop behaving like they're sure everyone's shown up conveniently pre-packaged for fucking.

Exactly.  There was so much going on, who knew where to look?  It wasn't the least bit titillating.

The only nudity that stood out for me was Elsie and the penis, and poor Thandie Newton -- it had to be cold, laying on that table.

[Netfoot]

41 minutes ago, Seppuku said:

1) there are definitely (at least) two timelines;

There is absolutely nothing definite about it.    In fact, there isn't a shred of hard evidence to suggest such a thing.  Not saying it's impossible, just that it definitely isn't definite.

[dr pepper]

This week on "Lawrence of Arizona", i am left completely confused. Confuddled even. Did they just confirm the "two time periods" theory? Or did they finally put it to rest?

As for the nudity, i've seen lots more elsewhere, but this time it was a lot more equal opportunity. And that's all i ask.

[dr pepper]

22 hours ago, djlynch said:

I'm not bothered by the presence of nudity at an orgy, but I did kind of question why they needed to have an orgy in the first place. But what bothers me more than that is the typical HBO drama double standard where the male leads are all carefully positioned and shot so that they don't show more than some butt cheek, but the female leads are frequently shown frontally nude.

Yes, but not this time.

[Adultosaurus]

1 hour ago, okerry said:

No - that was Hector. The two do look alike, but it was definitely Hector in that scene.

Do they?  I don't think so at all.  It was Hector - nothing like Logan (to me).

[maraleia]

FYI most of the actors in the orgy scene were adult actors. Robby Echo tweeted this

My mom saw my naked ass on @WestworldHBO & sent this screen grab of me & @CherieDeVille getting at it. #WestworldHBO

They do this with a lot of HBO shows like Game of Thrones and True Detective. This is how they make it easier for everyone involved because then the adult actors can make the rest of the people on set feel at ease.

Edited November 1, 2016 by maraleia

[djsunyc]

i don't like the unreliable narrator (delores).  i don't like the flashes where one scene she's with william and lawrence and then all of the sudden their gone.  i think it's a unnecessary distraction to the story and it seems more filler than anything.

i understand alot of shows try to be deep and need to keep folks guessing but i'm not a fan of the way this show is trying to do that.

[feverfew]

1 hour ago, arc said:

I did speculate that Wyatt is a Ford creation designed to allude to Arnold, that maybe "Wyatt" was Arnold's last name. Ford made a big deal about the bicameral mind theory, and then Wyatt was introduced as someone who hears voices. But I don't think Wyatt is a legit human Arnold. Between Ford and the control room's near-omniscience, I would be surprised if even a park co-founder could elude detection for 34+ years.

I like this. I definitely think that Wyatt or this particular storyline has something to do with both Arnold, his philosophy and that thing that happened 35 years ago, but l haven't really made up my mind as to why Ford has chosen now to implement it. Perhaps it has something to do with mortality? The MIB said in the first episode that in park you could do anything but die; yet one (=Arnold) figured out a way to do it (paraphrased). Is Ford dying?

Speaking of Ford: Is he a villain or a hero? Does he see himself as the villain of the story? As of right now, we obviously do (his callousness when it comes to the hosts, the powerplay with Teresa), but will that change when we learn the purpose of the maze?

 

As of this episode I'm tilting slightly toward the two timeline theory; mainly because of Logan and William's conversation. The way Logan spoke of the park's financial situation made it sound as if the financial troubles are a current thing, not a past one. And that, combined with MIB's words on how he saved the park, could be an indication of William and Logan being in the past. Dolores' visions (for lack of a better word) could, however, be just that: visions. Because we have these interludes where she sees things that clearly aren't there, I don't think we can take her final scene as a definite proof W&L are in the past.

I'm hoping it isn't; not because I don't like the twist (I do), but because I like the character of William. In a story like Westworld I need a White Hat to root for and I think his and Dolores relationship (whatever it may be) is fascinating. Also, I really like the actor. White Hat can be a thankless role to play, but so far, Jimmy Simpson has played it with subtlety and a sense of hidden depth which I like. If this storyline happens in the past or if he turns out to be the MIB (those aren't necessarily correlated in my opinion) we will loose him and I don't want that...

Edited November 1, 2016 by feverfew
Spelling is bigly important

[dr pepper]

17 hours ago, Izeinwinter said:

The thing with Bill.. Well, Ford says that the hosts started passing the turing test in months. There is *no* way Bill would ever pass, so he must have been deeply obsolete far before the park ever opened at all. A first prototype which never saw any action, as it were.  

 

A few years ago, there was a concept called the "pub pal" Not a robot but an audioanimatron which would occupy a seat at a bar and which people could interact with. Cliff and Norm turned down an offer to be models. It might be that the Westworld robots started as advanced versions of that. I can certainly see Old Bill as a transitional stage.

[arc]

17 hours ago, Izeinwinter said:

The thing with Bill.. Well, Ford says that the hosts started passing the turing test in months. There is *no* way Bill would ever pass, so he must have been deeply obsolete far before the park ever opened at all. A first prototype which never saw any action, as it were.  

Bill could probably pass, at least as far as his conversational skills go. A lot of people don't pay that much attention to what's said, esp if the tone is genial. And doubly esp if they're intoxicated, and his function is a bartender.

[DarkRaichu]

22 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

i don't like the unreliable narrator (delores).  i don't like the flashes where one scene she's with william and lawrence and then all of the sudden their gone.  i think it's a unnecessary distraction to the story and it seems more filler than anything.

 

I think those were nice contrast to her flashbacks in episode 3, where the flashes happened in the past.  In this episode, the flashes happened in the now (at least if you ask anyone who believe in 2 timelines)

[Unknown poster]

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

There is absolutely nothing definite about it.    In fact, there isn't a shred of hard evidence to suggest such a thing.  Not saying it's impossible, just that it definitely isn't definite.

Thank you. The popularity of these theories (William=Mib, 2 timelines) baffles me. Dolores meets William after a memory of Mib causes her to go off her loop, so there goes that idea. Also, At least one employee (Stubbs) has been explicitly shown watching both William (through Dolores) and Mib's actions. 

[Adultosaurus]

51 minutes ago, maraleia said:

FYI most of the actors in the orgy scene were adult actors. Robby Echo tweeted this

My mom saw my naked ass on @WestworldHBO & sent this screen grab of me & @CherieDeVille getting at it. #WestworldHBO

They do this with a lot of HBO shows like Game of Thrones and True Detective. This is how they make it easier for everyone involved because then the adult actors can make the rest of the people on set feel at ease.

??  So?  

[MorganSte]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

 

Speaking of, kind of, what seemed weird about the orgy for me was, how did they happen to have this palace-like set in the middle of the tiny border town? It wasn't the orgy, it was the total break of the containing realities the characters were in, that I thought was odd.

 

They were defiling a church.  You can see the altar in some shots and there are crypts that Dolores runs through.

[maraleia]

Just now, Adultosaurus said:

??  So?  

People have been talking about the orgy scene and whether it was necessary. I thought this anecdote was interesting.

[Adultosaurus]

1 minute ago, MorganSte said:

They were defiling a church.  You can see the altar in some shots and there are crypts that Dolores runs through.

Really?  I just saw it more that they were on the borderlines of the mainstream community and it was a little wilder there.  

1 minute ago, maraleia said:

People have been talking about the orgy scene and whether it was necessary. I thought this anecdote was interesting.

But saying it was populated with porn actors seemed to not really matter.  (What I assumed you meant by adult actors).

[Goatherd]

30 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

Thank you. The popularity of these theories (William=Mib, 2 timelines) baffles me. Dolores meets William after a memory of Mib causes her to go off her loop, so there goes that idea. Also, At least one employee (Stubbs) has been explicitly shown watching both William (through Dolores) and Mib's actions. 

I thought the two-timelines idea was ridiculous when I first read it here. So I went back through the episodes to find evidence to contradict it...and ended up realizing it was plausible, and eventually believing in it.

Just to explain (and not to try to convince anyone of anything), when the above poster says something happened "after" something else, the way the two-timelines theory works is that just because two scenes occur in sequence in the show, it doesn't mean the events were sequential. We've seen Dolores experience some events many, many times. Maybe she has run off from the farm hundreds of times throughout the years.

And I haven't seen Stubbs "watching" William. I've seen him respond to Dolores going off her loop -- which, as a host designed to question the nature of her reality, she may have done every couple weeks for the last thirty years, for all we know.

[gatopretoNYC]

42 minutes ago, MorganSte said:

They were defiling a church.  You can see the altar in some shots and there are crypts that Dolores runs through.

Oh wow. I did not catch that. I need a bigger tv.

[gatopretoNYC]

49 minutes ago, Adultosaurus said:

??  So?  

Did you intend for this to be as rude as it seems? 

[Adultosaurus]

6 minutes ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Did you intend for this to be as rude as it seems? 

I intended the poster to expound on why porn actors being in the scene mattered.  Why do you think that was rude?

Edited November 1, 2016 by Adultosaurus
clarification

[phoenyx]

On 10/30/2016 at 11:22 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

It looked like William, Logan and Delores got sidetracked into Orgy-world for a while there. Naked women coated in gold leaf? Not real authentic Western.

I'm sure guests who are into orgies could overlook such details ;-)...

On 10/30/2016 at 11:44 PM, Bill1978 said:

If I had no started watching from the start I too would have thought I had stumbled into Eyes Wide Shut : The Series.

Lol :-). I loved that film. I think it's plausible the episode got some inspiration from EWS.

[phoenyx]

23 hours ago, Goatherd said:

Congrats to those who called it that Dolores has been lying during her interviews!

Ty ty ;-)

20 hours ago, Gobi said:

The story about the greyhound seems to be foreshadowing to me. Like the greyhound, the hosts are on a leash (programming) that prevents them from fulfilling a purpose. If they are unleashed, they will fight and kill guests, even if they do not know why, just as the greyhound was confused after it caught the cat. And, of course, the bystanders will be horrified.

Good catch, that makes perfect sense.

[phoenyx]

18 hours ago, Arnella said:

Old Bob (?) who Ford was talking to in the basement seemed so familiar to me. I finally looked at the credits and it's Michael Wincott!  They can't be planning to waste him a part that could be played by an actual animatronic.   I am excited to see where that is going and I generally don't care where things are going (more interested in just seeing it unfold).

I care where things are going, and it looks like you do too, if your plans for Michael Wincott are any indication, laugh :-). That being said, even if the whole thing gets derailed at some point, I will always be able to say I enjoyed the ride up to Episode 5 atleast.

15 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

I've suspected Dolores of being capable of deceit since her conversations with Bernard.  On at least 2 occasions, he asks "Have you told anyone about our conversations?" and she answers:

"You told me not to."

If you parse that, like a politician, that's not a "no," but it's an answer designed to make the listener think that you said "no."

Mm, good point. She may consider the voice in her head to be someone.

[phoenyx]

15 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Maybe I was reading too much into this, but when Ford said he and Dolores were not friends, I thought Ford purposely left Dolores in her ranch daughter role for 30+ years as punishment for her involvement in accident 30 years ago.  Her main purpose in the park was to be violated (emotionally and bodily) by the black hats at the end of the day, almost every day.

Other hosts had multiple roles throughout their years, ex: Abernathy was a sheriff and Meave was a rancher with a daughter.  Also, other older hosts were retired to the basement at the slightest hint of malfunctions.

I don't think Ford is that cruel. I think he's more like a parent who has decided that he's not responsible for his children because they're not technically human. Dolores certainly isn't the only android who is badly treated by guests. In regards to Ford's feelings to Dolores in particular, I think he holds a strong grudge against her- I think it Arnold may have fallen in love with Dolores and decided to lead a rebellion against the guests with them. I agree with you that Maeve looks like she had a past role with a daughter. Finally, I think that they first try to repair the androids but if they determine the damage is too deep, they retire them.

Edited November 1, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

4 hours ago, dr pepper said:

This week on "Lawrence of Arizona", i am left completely confused. Confuddled even. Did they just confirm the "two time periods" theory? Or did they finally put it to rest?

As for the nudity, i've seen lots more elsewhere, but this time it was a lot more equal opportunity. And that's all i ask.

 

Lawrence of Arizona, lol :-). I think most of the evidence suggests there aren't 2 timelines. I've already presented evidence that I think suggests there is only one timeline. That being said, there are a few pieces of evidence that I haven't looked into that suggest that there might be. God bless HBO's nudity and erotica- I generally hate most porn, especially the scripted type. It's generally just so tacky I can't bear it. HBO's nudity/erotica fulfills the soul in my view. 

[arc]

4 hours ago, Goatherd said:

And I haven't seen Stubbs "watching" William. I've seen him respond to Dolores going off her loop -- which, as a host designed to question the nature of her reality, she may have done every couple weeks for the last thirty years, for all we know.

I don't think she's designed to question her reality. If anything, there's a sentiment of contentment with life written into her. It's all through the pilot: "Some people choose to see the ugliness in this world, the disarray. I choose to see the beauty." Plus, she wouldn't be "off-loop" if she actually was designed to leave the ranch, narratively. And finally, her narrative loop is a small and constrained one. But it does explain why the park designers wanted AI that could improvise. It would be a ridiculous amount of work to fully script Dolores for all locations within the park like Pariah and elsewhere just in case a guest took her there, all the while never really expecting her to visit any of those places.

[Gobi]

I'm not sure Wyatt has anything to do with Arnold. He's a completely new character, for one thing.

I think he may be more dangerous than that. Ford, while he denies being insane, considers himself to be a God. He has created "every blade of grass" in Westworld, as he has put it. In this episode he again talked about creating his own world. Earlier, when talking to Bernard about his new storyline, he was looking at the church steeple. He has expressed his disappointment with how the park turned out: The guests chose the forbidden fruit, as it were. His interactions with the hosts range from paternal to dismissive; he seems disappointed in them, also. He spends a lot of time with Bill; but then, parents often favor their first born.

Ford has a jaded view of the guests. When William and Logan are arriving, Logan tells William that now he'll find out what kind of person he really is. At the end of the same episode, Ford tells the scriptwriter that people don't come to Westworld to find out what sort of person they are, they already know that. And Ford has seen what types they are, and is not pleased.

We've seen him doing massive rebuilding of the park and tearing down old buildings. I think Ford intends to destroy it, or at least alter it fundamentally. Wyatt may have been sent by Ford to "cleanse" Westworld. Ford may be preparing to unleash his greyhounds.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Gobi
Content

[Ms.McGregor]

9 hours ago, Adultosaurus said:

Do they?  I don't think so at all.  It was Hector - nothing like Logan (to me).

I agree.

And yet there are people who think that Ben Barnes could conceivably age into Ed Harris, so ...

[luna1122]

I do think Hector and Logan look quite a bit alike, and so does a lot of the interwebs. I found quite a bit of convo about it online.

https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/56v3es/anyone_notice_the_similarities_between_hector_and/

I'm familiar with Rodrigo santoro from other things, so I don't have a problem telling them apart but I think they do LOOK really similar.

Quote

I like the character of William. In a story like Westworld I need a White Hat to root for and I think his and Dolores relationship (whatever it may be) is fascinating. Also, I really like the actor. White Hat can be a thankless role to play, but so far, Jimmy Simpson has played it with subtlety and a sense of hidden depth which I like. If this storyline happens in the past or if he turns out to be the MIB (those aren't necessarily correlated in my opinion) we will loose him and I don't want that

Jimmi Simpson will always be a McPoyle to me, but I love him, and I think he's weirdly cute, and I too will HATE if he's the MIB. I have no idea if I believe in two timelines yet or not. I have no real theories on most of this show. I will be alternately riveted and exasperated, during the course of one episode, over and over. I think I'm going to give up on it, and then I think I can't wait to see what happens next.

[Netfoot]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

His interactions with the hosts range from paternal to dismissive; he seems disappointed in them, also.

Ford was surprised and disappointed when humanity went more black-hat than white-hat.  Pragmatically, he'd have had to design his hosts to cater to his guests desires, but he must regret the necessity of doing so.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Honestly, I am so confused by all the ambiguous remarks, clues and plot developments that basically the only thing I distinctly remember from this episode is Dolores entering Terminator mode (or as I like to call it, Shaw mode). Well, that and the orgy - I keep wondering why HBO thinks soft porn is such big draw for the viewers.

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Honestly, I am so confused by all the ambiguous remarks, clues and plot developments that basically the only thing I distinctly remember from this episode is Dolores entering Terminator mode (or as I like to call it, Shaw mode). Well, that and the orgy - I keep wondering why HBO thinks soft porn is such big draw for the viewers.

Probably more like Root's God mode considering Dolores was hearing voices ;)

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Probably more like Root's God mode considering Dolores was hearing voices ;)

Good point. So I guess Maeve shall have the Shaw mode, she has already shown a Shaw-like tendency to disregard horrible wounds and frighten people half to death. ;)

[dmc]

16 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I'm just the opposite.  It makes my brain hurt trying to figure it out.  I'm enjoying it for the character development and for the actors  -- ERW, Hopkins, Harris, Newton, even Shannon Woodward, who I only know from Raising Hope.  If the show had Tommy Lee Jones, I'd be in heaven.

The plot has become so complicated, I don't trust that the writers will be able to tie it all together without some gaping holes.  Watching it for what's on the screen means I won't be pissed off when the pieces don't come together.

You know I went back and re-watch this episode.  The second time I enjoyed it.  I agree that trying to figure out what's going on definitely makes my head hurt but I'm definitely that type of person I like to know like what's happening

48 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Honestly, I am so confused by all the ambiguous remarks, clues and plot developments that basically the only thing I distinctly remember from this episode is Dolores entering Terminator mode (or as I like to call it, Shaw mode). Well, that and the orgy - I keep wondering why HBO thinks soft porn is such big draw for the viewers.

Me too

Edited November 1, 2016 by dmc

[derriere]

11 hours ago, djsunyc said:

i don't like the unreliable narrator (delores).  i don't like the flashes where one scene she's with william and lawrence and then all of the sudden their gone.  i think it's a unnecessary distraction to the story and it seems more filler than anything.

i understand alot of shows try to be deep and need to keep folks guessing but i'm not a fan of the way this show is trying to do that.

I believe Logan when he says "it's just a giant circle jerk." ;)

Edited November 1, 2016 by derriere

[paramitch]

I loved the writing in a lot of this episode, which was so much about dreams, freedom, yearning, and loneliness.

What I was most fascinated by here were Ford's series of big conversations -- with the old Gunslinger-bot, with Dolores, with TMiB. Ford so frequently turns to the robots for companionship, it seems, and to give us his biggest insights into who he is, and it's very odd to me since he is the person who is also publicly the most merciless that the bots are things and not people. Yet he tells the greyhound story to the old gunslinger (a story about how the dog was essentially programmed to fruitlessly repeat specific behavior over and over again, but who then had no idea what to do when it had actually achieved its goal), and then shows palpable sadness when the old bot shows no sign of understanding it. Ford then questions Dolores on the last time she heard from Arnold (could Arnold actually somehow still be alive?) and he really seems to be afraid of something he can't enunciate.

So this episode's big scene, for me, wasn't the one between Ford and TMiB, but between Ford and Dolores, which began with yet another very interesting "Alice in Wonderland" callback -- when Ford responds to Dolores's "I'm in a dream," with, "You're in my dream," which is almost certainly a deliberate paraphrase of the famous Alice quote: "He was part of my dream, of course — but then I was part of his dream, too."

Then: "Dreams mean everything," says Ford to Dolores. "They're the stories we tell ourselves of what could be, who we could become."

This right here is basically the entire show in a nutshell. It's telling us, right here, that how we play and imagine also equals who we are. What's really interesting is that It occurs multiple times through the episode, and each time, a character with real or imagined power over another tells the weaker one that they may dream of better, but they won't get it. Ford says it to Dolores. Lutz, the crude tech says it to Felix. And Logan says it to William.

I mean, from that "dream" Alice conversation with Dolores, Ford goes on in a speech that eerily echoed both the conversation of the lab techs, and even more, Logan's speech to William later on: "Have you been dreaming again, Dolores? Imagining yourself breaking out of your modest little loop? [like his greyhound?!] Taking on a bigger role? Well, I suppose I can't begrudge you that." While the conversation is interesting (I read more than a little actual rage and yearning in Ford's conversation with her), what makes it even more so is that once again, Ford is talking to a robot and appears to be patently giving at least some credit for the ability to yearn, dream, and to make choices. And it appears that at one time (34+ years ago?) Dolores had already done those very things already once? What if the near-freedom we see her discovering is a cycle that has recurred many times?

And interesting that Ford showed us that, at one time, Dolores was in fact his primary enemy under Arnold -- there's real cold rage when he tells her they are "not old friends."And yet he also admits to her that he's talking to her because nobody else understands.

And in this scene Ford has some of the most beautiful dialogue in the show, to me, so far: "My father told me to be satisfied with my lot in life, that the world owed me nothing. And so I made my own world. Tell me, Dolores, do you remember the man I used to be? But I'm sure you remember him. Arnold. The person who created you. Your mind is a walled garden. Even death cannot touch the flowers blooming there." I loved this, what this told us about Ford. And especially when he followed this up by telling Dolores she'd been content, in her "little loop. For the most part." Then, "I wonder... if you did take on that bigger role for yourself, would you have been the hero? Or the villain?"

And she doesn't answer. Until the end, when she saves William and effortlessly shoots down all their adversaries in a flash, and then says (in a moment when I actually fist-pumped at the TV): "You said people come here to change the story of their lives. I imagined a story where I didn't have to be the damsel." I mean, to me, that's a mic-drop moment.

On 10/30/2016 at 9:42 PM, DarkRaichu said:

(snipped for space) I am not convinced that William = MiB though.  To me, an older repenting Logan is better suited to be MiB.  MiB mentioned to Ford that he helped stop Arnold 35 years ago.  William had never stepped foot on Westworld until after Arnold died.  Logan seemed to be the rich a-hole type who would have had early access to something that cost a lot of money like Westworld.  Perhaps he visited earlier and somehow was involved in stopping Arnold. 

I wonder if the accident 30 years ago was William getting killed (to save Dolores?).  All safety protocols + good samaritan procedures were implemented after this incident and after the business men came in.  

The last shot of Dolores ALONE in front of the coffin marked with the map of the maze was in the present (30 years after William).  She was having a flashback to the first time she and William met Lawrence.  This was what Control meant by Dolores went off loop in last episode.

I'm still not convinced on the two timelines thing, because the control room techs last episode with MiB were the same ones who noticed Dolores out of her loop -- which implies the same timeline for both. I also agree with those who think the two timelines would lessen the impact of Dolores's journey of awakening -- unless the whole point is that she was already sentient once, and is now reawakening. (And the scene with Ford and Dolores does strongly imply that she tried to break out once, and was in fact 'punished' by him with her endless homestead/rape loop.)

Added (I forgot earlier): But Dolores is not alone in that final scene on the train. She is simply still at the coffin farther into the room, while we saw Lawrence and William move to the doorway previously to open up a flask or two (and hear Lawrence faintly describing the liquor to him). The lighting on Dolores as she updates whoever she is communing with, however, is very much like that when she is in her Q&As -- isolating and cold. I'm sure it's deliberate.

On 10/31/2016 at 3:42 AM, Gobi said:

The story about the greyhound seems to be foreshadowing to me. Like the greyhound, the hosts are on a leash (programming) that prevents them from fulfilling a purpose. If they are unleashed, they will fight and kill guests, even if they do not know why, just as the greyhound was confused after it caught the cat. And, of course, the bystanders will be horrified.

I thought Ford's greyhound story was about how living things can be programmed just as easily and as narrowly as the robots he created. I actually thought he was belittling animals/humans here, as well as the robots he treats like pets (remember, TMiB even refers to Teddy as Ford's "pet" later on).

Further: What if Dolores, like Ford's dog, slipped her collar only to cause destruction she didn't understand? And must now be constantly reined in by Ford?

One thing that got me: Dolores is being literal with William, but he's falling for her because he thinks she's being figurative. As when she says, "The voice in my head says I need you," then kisses him. He doesn't get that she has an actual voice in her head (has she been hacked like the stray, and was her vision of her bloody arm a reference that she has been implanted too?) Or is she simply hearing a dead (or aliiiiive?) Arnold in god-mode?

On 10/31/2016 at 4:24 AM, Gobi said:

I don't think the presence of Lawrence in Pariah proves there are two timelines. When W/D/L arrived in Pariah, they were told they had to wait until the next day to see El Lazo. Why? Well, if he was undergoing repairs after his blood donation, that would be a good reason. And if TMIB had not cut him loose, so to speak, W/D/L probably would have been given a story that he was out of town and they would have dealt with one of  his lieutenants.

I'm very very interested in Lawrence as El Lazo and how connected this new, very suave character is to his previous, humbler character as kidnapped by TMiB. To me, El Lazo is the real Lawrence, which means he was pretending with TMiB to a degree (and it was so much fun to see him go from this cringing, dirty peasant-guy, to a suave and rather elegant leader as El Lazo later -- Clifton Collins, Jr. is a wonderful actor, among so many in this cast).

On 10/31/2016 at 5:56 AM, Cerulean said:

I think Delores's timeline is messed up if the MiB and William are the same person. How can she go from this awakening she's experiencing with William to being to someone like the first episode when the MiB was raiding her house. The MiB DID recognize her (and Teddy) but they would have had to scrub everything from her to get her back to that point. It would kill her journey. 

Unless part of her journey is that she has been held back again and again and again from self-awareness just as it dawned, and only now, decades later, is she insisting upon empowerment. Maybe now -- if there are two timelines -- she will succeed where she once failed.

On 10/31/2016 at 6:38 AM, ACW said:

I think it just put her journey on hold for 30 years.  It's plausible that when we see her without William, we're seeing present-Dolores retrace her journey.

This would certainly make it more tragic.

23 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Maybe I was reading too much into this, but when Ford said he and Dolores were not friends, I thought Ford purposely left Dolores in her ranch daughter role for 30+ years as punishment for her involvement in accident 30 years ago.  Her main purpose in the park was to be violated (emotionally and bodily) by the black hats at the end of the day, almost every day.

No, I very much thought the same thing was implied there, that Ford himself had in fact punished Dolores with her sadistic "little loop."

19 hours ago, okerry said:

Okay, somebody tell me if you noticed this too: At the end of the Ford/Teddy/MiB scene, Ford waves his finger and the player piano starts playing *very fast.* And Teddy abruptly stands up and seems to be moving very fast as well - as though Ford sped him up to get him moving, not necessarily "healing" him.

I thought the same thing, and I watched that scene several times. The tempo of the piano is definitely much, much faster -- not just than Ford previously on "Claire de Lune," but an insanely frantic honkytonk, and Teddy and piano both seem to be responding to Ford's cue to move things along.

15 hours ago, candall said:

So I think there's a lot of nudity in WW for the dual purpose of showing the desensitization of the working staff, and also to desensitize the viewers.  It's an adult drama about an adult fantasy vacation world--naturally there will be countless breasts out and about, as well as some group sex and penises.  Why represent otherwise?

With Delores, I think it was smart to have Ford interrogate naked Delores when Bernard hadn't.  Interesting that they've provided insight into two men who are basically probing the same issues, except now it's the clothing that's significant for being the more incongruous state.

Great post about the show's nudity. I give the show credit, first off, for several frontal shots of men here -- and mostly really like the way the nudity is handled by the show so far -- my one exception would be the Pariah orgy, which I felt was both awkward, unsexy, and which relied way too much on naked ladies (and of course, with the obligatory girl-on-girl moment with no equable moment showing guy-on-guy). I also found it totally unrealistic that Logan wasn't an immediate and enthusiastic participant.

I do like what the nudity says about the characters' POVs -- how Dolores is naked with Ford to show his superiority and inhumanity, and clothed with Bernard to reveal the opposite. 

I also love the way the episode bookends so that when TMiB asks if Ford is going to stop him, Ford replies -- as before, with Dolores, actually -- as not wanting to stop the story. He says, "Far be it from me to get in the way of a voyage of self-discovery." This is even echoed again, subtly, when Logan begs William to save him and William turns away, saying, "No. No more pretending." Honestly, we've all met Logan. A beating by robots can only do that man a world of good.

And then we have that amazing final moment between Maeve and Felix. Interesting that Felix, like the better humans we see, treats the little bird like a live creature, imploring it with, "come on, little thing," like he's begging it to live. And I really enjoyed the fact that I was actually worried for him in that final scene -- there was a subtle building tension as he watched the bird fly around with so much joy -- I half-expected Maeve to simply kill him. The fact that she doesn't -- and we instead get that beautiful shot of Maeve sitting there calmly, smiling, with the bird on her finger. I just loved that -- Maeve is one of my favorite characters. I can't wait to see what happens next.

Edited November 1, 2016 by paramitch
clarity

[morgankobi]

4 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I also love the way the episode bookends so that when TMiB asks if Ford is going to stop him, Ford replies -- as before, with Dolores, actually -- as not wanting to stop the story. He says, "Far be it from me to get in the way of a voyage of self-discovery." This is even echoed again, subtly, when Logan begs William to save him and William turns away, saying, "No. No more pretending." Honestly, we've all met Logan. A beating by robots can only do that man a world of good.

I think Logan will enjoy the beating, sadly. Also, didn't he smile a bit when he realized William was going to leave him there? (It looked like it to me.) Perhaps happy with himself because he thinks he finally corrupted his future brother-in-law.

[izabella]

25 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I thought Ford's greyhound story was about how living things can be programmed just as easily and as narrowly as the robots he created. I actually thought he was belittling animals/humans here, as well as the robots he treats like pets (remember, TMiB even refers to Teddy as Ford's "pet" later on).

I thought Ford's greyhounds story was about the MIB - he has been chasing "something" in Westworld for 30 years, and he probably has no idea what to do with it if he gets it (finds the center of the maze).  I thought that tied in with Ford's conversation with MIB, and asking MIB why he's doing what he's doing, and MIB's reply about the soft people in the real world who have no purpose and how important it is to have a purpose...

[jeansheridan]

Finally jumping in.  I don't see two timelines yet but rewatched Logan and William's first episode and they never see Teddy.  James Marsden and William seem to be host/human parallels.  William takes Teddy' s place in Dolores' world.  William unlike Teddy knows when the game is using Dolores to manipulate him.

I don't know why William was surprised Dolres could shoot. She helped with the raid and she brought her own gun.  The moment was framed to be significant but not sure why. 

Have we seen Dolores or the hosts display unusual strength or speed?  I guess Teddy stopping the knife but otherwise they seem currently limited to "human" strenghth.  Maybe the host who bashed in his head.  That rock was big.

Logan's reaction to being beaten is interesting to me.  He doesn't seem remotely worried although getting choked should panic you a bit. His utter confidence in the safeguards of the park seems foolhardy.

I am warming to William as well.  A good man in a sea of corruption is interesting to watch.  Where will he slip?  Like shooting the unarmed bandit.  It was almost a mistake.  He is becoming careless with "life".  

I don't mind the anachronisms.  I think any distant recreation of another time period would have mistakes.  It is like our films of ancient Rome.  We just have no real idea.  It is all a guess.  So mistakes are made.  Or else the writers of the park don't care.  Gold painted women?  Why not? Black sheriff?  Sure.  Small British child wandering around?  Okay.  We really don't know how far into the future this show goes.  The tech in the lab seems close enough to our time.  The clothing is close enough too.  People wear glasses.  It all feels near future.

[Adultosaurus]

2 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't mind the anachronisms.  I think any distant recreation of another time period would have mistakes.  It is like our films of ancient Rome.  We just have no real idea.  It is all a guess.  So mistakes are made.  Or else the writers of the park don't care.  Gold painted women?  Why not? Black sheriff?  Sure.  Small British child wandering around?  Okay.  We really don't know how far into the future this show goes.  The tech in the lab seems close enough to our time.  The clothing is close enough too.  People wear glasses.  It all feels near future.

I think this is a really great point.  This isn't history, it's not even historical fiction - so we all need to suspend disbelief a little more.  I think it's unfortunate that this storyline is a tangible moment in American History because it makes everyone try to land on inaccuracies...just pretend it's another world.

[teddysmom]

Maybe they're trying to show us how sordid the entire WW universe is? The fact that the employees have sex with the robots, sit there and talk to them with their bathing suit area for all to see, etc. and then the whole gross situation at that town with the orgy and the women painted gold walking around naked? Like the WW version of Sodom & Gomorrah? That was created by the WW people. So there is some real messed up stuff going on, and we the viewer are seeing the robots/androids as unwitting participants/victims. JMO YMMV. It's hard to tell this early what the end game will be, but there are good twists that keep me watching.

[withanaich]

Here's what I don't understand: how can people possibly think there are two different timelines?! Like, it was a nice theory for a second, but it seems pretty obvious that that isn't what's going on here, and here's why: The hosts interacting with the MIB move and talk the same as the ones interacting with William and Logan. Ford has said -- and we've seen evidence of this in his interactions with the guy in the basement, who even looks a little "off" when he's sitting still -- that the older hosts were clunky, had herky-jerky machine-like movements (which you can HEAR), and often repeated themselves. We haven't seen any of that behavior from the modern-day hosts. (Even when they malfunction, they seem pretty lifelike. Even when the guy out in the desert had a meltdown, it looked more like a human being having a stroke than a robot sputtering out of control.)

Not only has Ford said what the older hosts were like, the MIB himself also lamented how "realistic" Teddy was. He said that the hosts he USED to interact with -- years and years ago, when some people think William and Logan are existing -- were full of all these beautiful little parts. Now they bleed and get all gross like real people do.

The thing I found most interesting about this episode, though, is that we're finally learning what the world that Westworld is IN is like. It seems like human workers are tested or herded into roles and jobs, just like the hosts. Which is why poor Felix is working so hard to prove he can be more than just a "butcher." And why Logan taunts William for not being up to the opportunity he gave him, one he believes he should have never had because it's not what he was *supposed* to do. It's almost like the humans are in their own little "loops." I hope we learn more about this. Maybe Felix will start teaching Maeve about the outside world.

[numbnut]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

I think it just put her journey on hold for 30 years.  It's plausible that when we see her without William, we're seeing present-Dolores retrace her journey.

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

On 10/30/2016 at 9:42 PM, DarkRaichu said:

The last shot of Dolores ALONE in front of the coffin marked with the map of the maze was in the present (30 years after William).  She was having a flashback to the first time she and William met Lawrence.  This was what Control meant by Dolores went off loop in last episode.

I'm still not convinced on the two timelines thing, because the control room techs last episode with MiB were the same ones who noticed Dolores out of her loop -- which implies the same timeline for both. I also agree with those who think the two timelines would lessen the impact of Dolores's journey of awakening -- unless the whole point is that she was already sentient once, and is now reawakening. (And the scene with Ford and Dolores does strongly imply that she tried to break out once, and was in fact 'punished' by him with her endless homestead/rape loop.)

Added (I forgot earlier): But Dolores is not alone in that final scene on the train. She is simply still at the coffin farther into the room, while we saw Lawrence and William move to the doorway previously to open up a flask or two (and hear Lawrence faintly describing the liquor to him). The lighting on Dolores as she updates whoever she is communing with, however, is very much like that when she is in her Q&As -- isolating and cold. I'm sure it's deliberate.

In the final train scene, Lawrence and William don't move to a door -- they both sit down to share the flask but they're gone when when the camera pans back to where they were sitting. Also, at the top of the ep, Dolores is first shown standing entirely alone in the cemetery scene before another shot reveals her standing right beside the men. These visual bookends support the flashback theory. I just can't figure out why her mission from Arnold was delayed for 30 years.

Edited November 1, 2016 by numbnut