S01.E05: Contrapasso

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Going on with the analogy of children, I'm reminded of what Thandie Newton once said in an interview- if you are shown kindness, you are kind, if you are shown violence, you are violent. Now, obviously, this is an oversimplification, but I definitely think there is some merit to the idea. What I'm getting at here is that the last thing you want to do with AI is show them a lot of violence, atleast so long as you don't want to create terminators. 

This is one reason why I get disturbed when kids beat on their stuffed animals or melt their Barbies.  The stuffed animals are representing something alive.  What does it say about the 8 year old who wallops it?

Edited November 4, 2016 by jeansheridan

[jeansheridan]

14 hours ago, arc said:

Nah, two different actors. I get the sense Felix's entire work day is just spent physically repairing hosts, kind of like operating on corpses. I guess there was a scalpel in that other scene you're talking about, but with hosts that are minimally awake and sitting up, I think that's where they do the Behavior stuff, the AI tuning.

Thanks.  I can't go back to watch it right now.  I had hoped it was Felix because it would have established him as having "softer" feelings towards the Androids and therefore a good choice for Maeve to contact.  

I have no doubt she picked him deliberately.  And after that episode when we saw them adjusting Maeve's level of aggression versus seductive quality, I'm intrigued to see just how good she is at reading humans.  She was designed to read humans, maybe even better than Dolores.  Part of Dolores' personality is that she's sweet and naive which grates on me!  Ug.  I'm ever so grateful when the techs tell her to drop the human affect, which REW does so well.  She'll be able to play a more assertive character if needed and I hope that comes soon.  

Edited November 4, 2016 by jeansheridan

[DarkRaichu]

16 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

This is one reason why I get disturbed when kids beat on their stuffed animals or melt their Barbies.  The stuffed animals are representing something alive.  What does it say about the 8 year old who wallops it?

Obviously it depends on the child.  Some people just like hitting stuffs.  Maybe the kid is a future carpenter or a future Ronda Rousey ;)

[Cherpumple]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

This is one reason why I get disturbed when kids beat on their stuffed animals or melt their Barbies.  The stuffed animals are representing something alive.  What does it say about the 8 year old who wallops it?

I see what you're saying, but I don't really worry about this. Kids are weird with their toys. And I'm speaking as someone who consistently rotated the stuffed animals on my bed to make sure they each got the same amount of attention, and also wore a severed shaved Barbie head around my neck like a necklace for almost a year. Don't ask me why, since I have no idea! So I like that this show taps into our inconsistent sense of compassion, which never ceases to amaze and confound me in real life. For example, I know lots of people who love hearing every detail of gruesome true crime cases, but can't handle seeing an animal injured in any way. And sometimes I feel an enormous sense of guilt (for days even) for killing a fly or spider in my house, and yet I'm a meat eater. And the strangest one for me is that I can't stand watching people smash pumpkins, especially using catapults. It just really disturbs me because I love pumpkins so much and hate seeing people destroying them with such glee. However, I love watching videos of elephants smashing and eating them, since they look so happy at getting such an unexpected treat. Go figure.

Back to the episode: I am also very intrigued with the Maeve/Felix development, and wonder what she wants from him. I would love to see a parallel "awakening" with both Dolores and her- from Dolores's recovered memories we can learn about the past, and with Maeve's help from Felix we can learn more about what the hosts are capable of now and what the next stage in their evolution might be. 

[A Boston Gal]

The similarity in the words "Delores" and "Delos"....

I'm sure it's only been mentioned here about fifty times, yes? Sorry. :(

Due to a glitch on my iPhone (where I was watching this ep at the gym), I had the unusual experience of starting the show in the middle, and thinking it was the very beginning of the episode. My watching began with Ford questioning Delores, and him walking out of earshot, while she whispered "I didn't tell him anything". After watching the rest of the episode, I realized what had happened when the WW podcast I listen to started to talk about scenes I hadn't seen (Young Ford boy host reappearing, blood transfusions, the reveal of Lawrence Redux, etc.).

After my little brain figured out what happened, I rewatched the entire episode, start to finish. For some reason, now I am a big proponant of the two timeline theory. I can't say exactly what about my "Momento" experience with this episode led to that, but I'm now about 90% sure William is the MiB.

Something to do with the hat, and the timing of the reappearance of Lawrence.

Edited November 4, 2016 by A Boston Gal
typos, etc.

[dgpolo]

Her name is Dolores D-O not D-E

I've always wondered why so many people make this mistake, they do it for Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter too.

[Goatherd]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

[Maeve] was designed to read humans, maybe even better than Dolores.

Ah, great point, and maybe you were already referring to this, but we even saw Elsie dial up this ability further, instead of decommissioning her.

[A Boston Gal]

29 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Her name is Dolores D-O not D-E

I've always wondered why so many people make this mistake, they do it for Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter too.

Glad I'm not alone in my ignorance. :)

[Goatherd]

11 hours ago, NutMeg said:

Ford is a so lonely in his fake world. He seems desperate to engage in meaningful interactions

Nutmeg, this is a lovely post, and a great exploration of who Ford is, and what drives him. 

It reminds me of how Ford described Arnold, and I have to wonder if he's actually describing himself with some of this: 

"His personal life was marked by tragedy. He put all his hopes into his work. His search for consciousness consumed him totally.
Barely spoke to anyone, except the hosts. In his alienation, he saw something in them. He saw something that wasn't there."

The last sentence makes me think of the grief that Anthony Hopkins portrayed oh-so-well when Old Bill gives his stock response to Ford's greyhound story. Ford just told his saddest story, and then something equally sad plays out right in front of him.

And other than Bernard, Ford really confides only in the hosts -- just as he describes Arnold to have done. His conversations with humans tend to be patronizing, as he tries to "patiently" explain the park, the hosts, and human nature.

[arc]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Thanks.  I can't go back to watch it right now.  I had hoped it was Felix because it would have established him as having "softer" feelings towards the Androids and therefore a good choice for Maeve to contact.  

I have no doubt she picked him deliberately. 

Oh, definitely, but she likely only had Felix and Sylvester (the other one, and I only got the name from IMDB, I don't think it's been said on the show yet) to choose from. According to the website materials, "Techs will often receive familiar units. Please do not switch assignments."

[ennui]

38 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

And other than Bernard, Ford really confides only in the hosts -- just as he describes Arnold to have done. His conversations with humans tend to be patronizing, as he tries to "patiently" explain the park, the hosts, and human nature.

Just like any workplace. Your co-workers understand, and you get tired of customer service.

[Gobi]

1 hour ago, arc said:

Oh, definitely, but she likely only had Felix and Sylvester (the other one, and I only got the name from IMDB, I don't think it's been said on the show yet) to choose from. According to the website materials, "Techs will often receive familiar units. Please do not switch assignments."

Felix and Sylvester, both cats. In the cartoons, Felix is the protagonist, Sylvester the antagonist.

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Felix and Sylvester, both cats. In the cartoons, Felix is the protagonist, Sylvester the antagonist.

And just like the cartoon, Sylvester ultimately failed to capture the (tweety) bird :D

[paigow]

Teddy should have let MiB kill a robot version of Ford. Therefore, those who believe that Ford is a host must accept that the Good Samaritan [Prime Directive] subroutine has been corrupted.  Consequently, hosts protecting other hosts against humans will inevitably lead to another "incident".  

[jeansheridan]

I think there's a stronger case for Bernard being a "host".  He's the only one who has flashbacks other than the hosts.  His telephone call could be manufactured (Gina Torres isn't real!  Boohoo ..seriously.  I'd love to see her fully on the show).  He's having private conversations with Dolores for his own personal reasons.  I'm not saying it is likely, but if the hosts have an insider beyond Maeve, it might be him.  Playing a very deep game.  I do love Jeffrey Wright so much.  He always plays it close to the chest.  He would have been good in a show like House of Cards too.  

[phoenyx]

6 hours ago, Gobi said:

Felix and Sylvester, both cats. In the cartoons, Felix is the protagonist, Sylvester the antagonist.

Interesting. Did a little digging, and found out why Felix and Sylvester are such common cat names...

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/2lxp8e/til_felix_and_sylvester_are_names_commonly/

[phoenyx]

On 11/3/2016 at 7:42 AM, Macbeth said:

This has probably been mentioned before - but I really like that Ford was wearing a black hat when he had his sit down with the MIB.  MIB's black was faded and well worn - while Ford's was brand spanking new. 

Who's the real villain here?

I think they're both on the darker side of things. It seems that Ford wasn't always this way though, judging by his comments to Theresa back in episode 4:

**

Theresa: I've forgotten how beautiful it is. I came here once as a child with my parents. I think we even sat at this table. (looks around) Or maybe ... maybe that one. When I started working here, I realized this place wasn't something I would enjoy.

Ford: Ah. (nods) In the beginning, I imagined things would be ... perfectly balanced. Even had a bet with my partner, Arnold, to that effect. We made a hundred hopeful story-lines. Of course, almost ... no one took us up on them. I lost the bet. Arnold always held a somewhat dim view of people.

**

I think he hints at where he turned to the dark side in the following dialogue he had with Bernard in Episode 3:

**

Ford: Those early years were glorious. No guests, no board meetings, just pure creation. Our hosts began to pass the Turing test after the first year. But that wasn't enough for Arnold. He--he wasn't interested in the appearance of intellect or wit. He wanted the real thing. He wanted to create consciousness. He imagined it as a pyramid. (Ford turns to the chalkboard and draws a pyramid with four horizontal divisions and labels them from bottom to top.) See? Memory ... improvisation ... self-interest -- 

Bernard: And at the top?

Ford: Never got there. But he had a notion of what it might be. He based it on a theory of consciousness called the Bicameral Mind.

Bernard: The idea that primitive man believed his thoughts to be the voice of the gods. I thought it was debunked.

Ford: As a theory for understanding the human mind, perhaps, but not as a blueprint for building an artificial one. See, Arnold built a version of that cognition in which the hosts heard their programming as an inner monologue ... with the hopes that in time, their own voice would take over. It was a way bootstrap consciousness. (Ford sits down behind his desk.) But Arnold hadn't considered two things. One, that in this place, the last thing you want the hosts to be is conscious, and two, the other group who considered their thoughts to be the voices of the gods.

**

While Ford says that Arnold "never got there", suggesting that he never managed to make the androids conscious, note what he says in the very last sentence above:

"...in this place, the last thing you want the hosts to be is conscious..."

What if Ford's version of events is based on false premises? What if some of the androids actually -became- conscious and no longer wanted to just do their little loops for the pleasure of the guests? Even if the uprising is peaceful, I have a feeling that Ford wouldn't have stood for it- he probably had a large debt to Delos to pay off and no time to waste in repaying it. This makes me think of a flashback Dolores had this episode:

**

[The Park. The city of Pariah. Night time. Dolores is standing in front of a building with five coffins leaning against it. The coffins are propped upright and are occupied. The open coffins appear to contain actual bodies. The area appears deserted exept for Dolores and she's staring at one of the open coffins. Dolores begins to hear voicies whispering, there's a roaring noise and screaming. Images appear of a a girl running and dead people laying in the street. A woman is shot and falls. Then there's a flash of Dolores standing still -- the white church with the steeple in the background and dead bodies laying around between Dolores and the church. Then, William breaks through Dolores thoughts.]

**

Could this flashback be a memory of the crushed rebellion?

Maeve has also had similarly harrowing flashbacks, where she was apparently about to be killed, along with what was apparently her daughter, apparently by some native americans. I'm wondering if her flashback might also be connected to Dolores' flashback.

Edited November 5, 2016 by phoenyx

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, phoenyx said:

 

Could this flashback be the memory of the crushed rebellion?

Maeve has also had similarly harrowing flashbacks, where she was apparently about to be killed, along with what was apparently her daughter, apparently by some native americans. I'm wondering if her flashback might also be connected to Dolores' flashback.

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide quotes.  My memory isn't that good.  I do have some oddball questions that are just occurring to me.

1.  Why do some of the workers wear hazmat suit and some don't?  Elsie and Helmsworth III didn't bother wearing suits when they hunted The Stray. 

2.  Why would the Native American characters be allowed to create Hazmat totem/dolls?  Wouldn't that have struct the guests as odd?

3.  One reviewer suggested that when Dolores is being interviewed by Bernard she's not actually in the room with him.  That he can create the the reality of the interview all in her head without removing her from the park.  And that's why she's dressed.  She's in her own head talking to him and she imagines herself dressed of course.  So the scenes when she's naked are "real" in that she's actually in the room with the techs.

That would explain how Arnold can hide his talks--his not doing them physically but via their version of virtual reality.  

And my head hurts!

Edited November 5, 2016 by jeansheridan
Meant Bernard not Arnold.

[phoenyx]

15 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide quotes.  My memory isn't that good.

Np :-). I love the various theories out there as to what may be taking place, but ultimately, the hardest evidence for any theory is the scenes and exact dialogue from the episodes.

15 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I do have some oddball questions that are just occurring to me.

1.  Why do some of the workers wear hazmat suit and some don't?  Elsie and Helmsworth III didn't bother wearing suits when they hunted The Stray. 

I think the suits are worn when a lot of blood has been spilled. Someone said that Maeve was infected at some point, so my guess is they're wearing them to avoid being infected. Also thinking the smell of the android's dead bodies might be an issue, they definitely seem to have organic parts.

15 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

2.  Why would the Native American characters be allowed to create Hazmat totem/dolls?  Wouldn't that have struct the guests as odd?

As you may recall, in Episode 4, Maeve draws a picture of one of the men in Hazmat suits and proceeds to put it underneath a floorboard only to see that there are already a bunch of them under said floorboard. Later in the episode, she sees a procession of native americans being led by soldiers. Here's the scene and a bit of dialogue following it:

**

[The Park. Sweetwater. Main Street. Maeve and Clementine gather with the other townspeople as shepherd a tribe of Indians through town. Maeve sees a figurine sticking out of a pouch carried by a little Indian girl. A soldier passes the girl and inadvertently knocks the figurine to the ground. Maeve runs to pick it up as it looks just like the mysterious men in red and white she sees in her flashes of memory. She runs after the little girl.]

Maeve: Hey, little girl, what--what is this? What does it mean? (The girl takes the figurine but keeps on walking.)

Soldier: Don't waste your breath, lady. That thing's part of their so-called religion. Ain't none of them's gonna tell you nothin' about that.

[The scene switches to the inside of the Mariposa Saloon. The bartender serves a drink to Maeve. She turns and faces the room.]

Clementine: It's $5 for an hour, 4 if you bathe first. (Clementine is talking to Hector's man, Tenderloin, and the male guest who tried to thank the MIB for his foundation saving his sister's life.)

Tenderloin: Well, if we just get the one, do I get a discount ... for being second and all?

Clementine: I'm sure we can work something out. (To another saloon girl, Franny.) Come on.

[Franny hurries over and grabs the Male Guest's arm. They walk away, leaving Tenderloin, who is looking all around the saloon. Clementine slowly walks up to Maeve at the bar.]

Maeve: The tall one -- I've seen him before -- hanging in the window of the post office.

Clementine: Bandits? Do you think they're here for something?

Maeve: I think they're interested in more than a turn at Franny's backside. I think he rides with Hector.

Clementine: Is that the one they say lives out with the savages?

[An image of the Indian girl's red and white figurine flashes across Maeve's mind.]

Maeve: That's the one.

**

I and others in this forum believe that the creators of Westworld are playing on the fact that the Hopi Native American tribe actually believed in "Kachina" and created dolls of them that look somewhat like men in hazmat suits. Here's a description of these Kachina dolls:

**

The nations indigenous to the land that is now the United States gave great respect and credence to the laws of nature, as is evident from the remains of ancient pottery, crafts and drawings. What of the laws of the universe, though? What evidence is there that the nations of this land believed in celestial life forms?

Petroglyphs found in ancient rocks of the Hopi regions of the Southwest have shown figures that appear to be ant-like. There are many legends of the Ant People that were a benevolent race that aided humans during the destruction of the First World. Gary David, an author and researcher, has examined the connection between these ant-like drawings and the masks worn for the Kachina dance. Were these masks actually representations of a belief in extra- terrestrials?

When David was living among the Hopi, he came to some interesting conclusions. He noted that the villages, or ruins of villages lined up specifically to stars in the Orion belt constellation. This got him studying further, and in looking at the ancient rock art and carvings, he saw many that corresponded with star charts and drawings of creatures that appeared to be extra terrestrial in nature. He then began to look at the connection between the popular Kachina dance and the spirits they represented, and a possible link to another planet.

**

Source: http://www.trueghosttales.com/kachina-extraterrestrials.php

Later on in the episode, Maeve, perhaps alerted by Clementine that Hector "lives out with the savages", decides to try to get information from him regarding what the significance of the visions she's been having mean. Below is some dialogue between them. I've edited out dialogue that isn't relevant to this discussion:

**

[Maeve holds up a sketch of the red and white hazmat suited man that she had drawn earlier.]

Maeve: I want to know about this. [Maeve holds up one of her pictures of the men in Hazmat suits]

...

[The scene shifts back to Hector and Maeve, upstairs at the Mariposa in the safe room. Hector is holding Maeve's sketch.]

Hector: This is a shade. Sacred native lore. They make figures of them.

Maeve: And what does the shade do?

Hector: You've seen this?

Maeve: What is it?

Hector: The men who walks between worlds. They were sent from hell to oversee our world.

...

Hector: The Dreamwalker said there were some who could see them -- that it's a blessing from God.

Maeve: A blessing?

Hector: To see the masters who pull your strings. (Maeve takes a drink of whiskey.)

Maeve: They don't know what they're talking about.

**

15 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

3.  One reviewer suggested that when Dolores is being interviewed by Bernard, she's not actually in the room with him.  That he can create the reality of the interview all in her head without removing her from the park. And that's why she's dressed.  She's in her own head talking to him and she imagines herself dressed of course.  So the scenes when she's naked are "real" in that she's actually in the room with the techs.

That would explain how Arnold can hide his talks--his not doing them physically but via their version of virtual reality.  

And my head hurts!

Interesting theory. I believe you meant how Bernard can hide his talks, not Arnold :-). Although some believe that Bernard Lowe may in fact have some of Arnold's personality in him. Anyway, here's to hoping I didn't confuse you more. Or as Frank Herbert once put it:

"Questions are my enemies. For my questions explode! Answers leap up like a frightened flock, blackening the sky of my inescapable memories. Not one answer, not one suffices."

Answers frequently lead to yet more questions. Or as the old saying goes: "The more you know, the more you know you don't know". It's nice to know that there's always something else on the horizon to explore though :-)

Edited November 5, 2016 by phoenyx

[Gobi]

When Teddy and the posse went after Wyatt, the guests reacted to the smell of the victims tied to the trees, so there's some decay going on; also, the flies were attracted to the victims, and the flies are real. As TMIB pointed out, the hosts are now made of flesh and bones (of some sort), because it's cheaper.

[dgpolo]

19 minutes ago, Gobi said:

and the flies are real.

I have wondered, if the flies are real, and I agree they are, what about bed bugs-lice etc. Another reason my fantasy world is a 5 star hotel on a beach somewhere.

And the reason I don't really like to think that William is the MiB is, what had to have happened to him to get him that way? What had to have happened to him to get him to act the way he's acted to Dolores, dragging her to the barn to, supposedly at least, rape her? I think he may very well be the MiB but I don't like it.

William means 'resolute protector' and Logan means 'hollow' or 'the little hollow'. Just throwing that out there. Wonder if William does turn out to be the MiB if he changes his name?

[phoenyx]

15 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

I have wondered, if the flies are real, and I agree they are, what about bed bugs-lice etc. Another reason my fantasy world is a 5 star hotel on a beach somewhere.

And the reason I don't really like to think that William is the MiB is, what had to have happened to him to get him that way? What had to have happened to him to get him to act the way he's acted to Dolores, dragging her to the barn to, supposedly at least, rape her? I think he may very well be the MiB but I don't like it.

William means 'resolute protector' and Logan means 'hollow' or 'the little hollow'. Just throwing that out there. Wonder if William does turn out to be the MiB if he changes his name?

I'm not a fan of William as the MiB either, but for those who are, I found a video that has some interesting ideas. Heck, even if you're like me and are not a fan of William = MiB, it still has some things I agree with. For one, I think most of his theory regarding Ford's new storyline is the most plausible explanation for a lot of things...

[numbnut]

If there's a flashback timeline (with William/Logan 30 years prior), I wonder if this is how things progressed: Logan's family invests in or buys out Westworld; William is promoted over Logan; Logan quits (or is fired) and creates a rival company; Logan's company is now smuggling data out of the park (in his vendetta against William). Dunno if this fits with the William = MiB theory (since the MiB's company is a charitable foundation).

I also think the little boy was created in memory of Ford's brother.

Edited November 5, 2016 by numbnut

[phoenyx]

23 minutes ago, numbnut said:

If there's a flashback timeline (with William/Logan 30 years prior), I wonder if this is how things progressed: Logan's family invests in or buys out Westworld; William is promoted over Logan; Logan quits (or is fired) and creates a rival company; Logan's company is now smuggling data out of the park (in his vendetta against William). Dunno if this fits with the William = MiB theory (since the MiB's company is a charitable foundation).

I think we're going to find out pretty soon whether or not William or Logan is MiB from the past. The reason I think this is that I think that all roads are leading to Wyatt in Westworld now. Basically, I think that either the 2 timeline theory will be shown to be true or William and/or Logan will be meeting up with MiB soon. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by phoenyx

[ennui]

On 11/4/2016 at 9:50 AM, dgpolo said:

Her name is Dolores D-O not D-E

I've always wondered why so many people make this mistake, they do it for Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter too.

I'm not certain ... there was an article in my newspaper before the show began, and they spelled it Delores, which I assumed they would have taken from a press release. Also, it's Delos, and the derivative would be Delores.

[phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, ennui said:

I'm not certain ... there was an article in my newspaper before the show began, and they spelled it Delores, which I assumed they would have taken from a press release. Also, it's Delos, and the derivative would be Delores.

Every article I've ever seen has had her name as Dolores. Back before the show began, I understand why they'd mess the name up- few people had heard of the character at that point. The same can't be said now.

[dgpolo]

5 minutes ago, ennui said:

I'm not certain ... there was an article in my newspaper before the show began, and they spelled it Delores, which I assumed they would have taken from a press release. Also, it's Delos, and the derivative would be Delores.

I -am- certain.

http://www.hbo.com/westworld/cast-and-crew/index.html

[phoenyx]

1 hour ago, dgpolo said:

I -am- certain.

http://www.hbo.com/westworld/cast-and-crew/index.html

Wish I'd thought of doing that, laugh :-). One thing that I don't think anyone's mentioned- Dolores means "pains" in spanish. Some people actually have it as a name, my father used to have a housekeeper of that name in Mexico.

Edited November 5, 2016 by phoenyx

[ennui]

15 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

I -am- certain.

http://www.hbo.com/westworld/cast-and-crew/index.html

Certain, but not much fun.  ;)

[phoenyx]

Just now, ennui said:

Certain, but not much fun.  ;)

Lol :-).

[Gobi]

Dolorous means mournful, sorrowful, unhappy, woeful, etc.

[phoenyx]

On 11/3/2016 at 9:20 AM, sneakyflute said:

It's possible that William's scenes take place just a few years prior and that he may not even be the MiB, but it's hard to discount the idea that they're conflating two timelines at this point.

Episode 3 - wakes up with a gun at her side, the camera slowly pans, and William seemingly pops into frame out of nowhere.

I think you mean the beginning of episode 4. I think that William appearing in the scene behind Dolores is a bit abrupt. I think she probably should have seen him when she looked around herself if he was so closeby. Nevertheless, I don't see how that helps with the 2 timeline theory. 

[phoenyx]

On 11/3/2016 at 9:20 AM, sneakyflute said:

Episode 4 - has flashbacks during an encounter with the girl at the fountain and what immediately follows is the scene of her being accosted by an employee dressed as a cowboy. We're intentionally misled here because we see two present-day employees flagging her rogue behavior. However, I am convinced that this exchange is what allows Ford to intercept Dolores later on at the parade.

Again, I'm not sure how you can use any of this as a support for the 2 timeline theory. As to Ford intercepting Dolores later on at the parade, it was established in Episode 3 that atleast one of the androids had a GPS tracking unit, I think the easiest way by far to track all of the androids would be the equip them with the same.

[phoenyx]

On 11/4/2016 at 7:00 PM, jeansheridan said:

I think there's a stronger case for Bernard being a "host".  He's the only one who has flashbacks other than the hosts.  His telephone call could be manufactured (Gina Torres isn't real!  Boohoo ..seriously.  I'd love to see her fully on the show).  He's having private conversations with Dolores for his own personal reasons.  I'm not saying it is likely, but if the hosts have an insider beyond Maeve, it might be him.  Playing a very deep game.  I do love Jeffrey Wright so much.  He always plays it close to the chest.  He would have been good in a show like House of Cards too.  

I agree, if I had to pick the most likely of the main characters who is currently passing as human is in fact a host, I'd say it would be Bernard. I also think he's doing a great acting job and I love how he seems to be essentially playing a Schindler from Schindler's list, seemingly helping atleast Dolores to an underground railroad to freedom. There is one more thing to consider- it's possible that not only is Bernard an Android but that Ford knows this. I can't help but think of something Ford said to Theresa in episode 4:

**

Ford: (smiles) We know everything about our guests, don't we? As we know everything about our employees. I do hope you will be careful with Bernard. He has a sensitive disposition. 

**

Source: http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3723009&postcount=5

Perhaps he just likes knowing everything about everything and employees is just one more category to know things about. Anyway, one thing I'd really like to know is, how did Bernard learn about the maze? 

Edited November 6, 2016 by phoenyx

[Quilt Fairy]

11 hours ago, phoenyx said:

When David was living among the Hopi, he came to some interesting conclusions. He noted that the villages, or ruins of villages lined up specifically to stars in the Orion belt constellation. This got him studying further, and in looking at the ancient rock art and carvings, he saw many that corresponded with star charts and drawings of creatures that appeared to be extra terrestrial in nature. He then began to look at the connection between the popular Kachina dance and the spirits they represented, and a possible link to another planet.

Wow, you found an Orion link in there along with the kachina doll references.  Cool!

Apparently there's a theory floating around that all of Dolores' interactions with Bernard and Ford are via a link directly to her (positronic?) brain rather than in-person.  If so, how could you explain the scene where Bernard physically hands Dolores  the book Alice in Wonderland and has her read from it?

[phoenyx]

On 10/30/2016 at 10:28 PM, parandroid said:

Perhaps the nudity was gratuitous, but it didn't annoy me. I thought the rest of the episode moved things along so well that I think it more than made up for any of the cheaper thrills. There were so many things that piqued my interest, and I noticed that your recap didn't get to many of them. Like how the boy appears to be a general helper who shows up to help guests (...when...?). Or like how Logan probably would have been killed (maybe) by strangulation and was saved by William. Or how Dolores saw herself in that procession (why?) and then later on as the astrologer.

I hadn't even noticed that she had seen -herself- in the procession, thanks for pointing that out :-). My theory as to her seeing herself in the procession, and then later as the tarot card reader is that her android brain is capable of hallucinating, and may be part of the whole "bicameral mind" thing- that is, not only can they -hear- their own inner programming, but they can see it too- a visual guide to what they should do if you will (in this case, I think the guide was telling her to join the procession). Ofcourse what really gets me to think is that during the procession, she is put to sleep by Ford, which makes me wonder, did -he- have anything to do with her seeing that hallucination? So either Ford drew her away from William, or her 'inner voice' did, but either way it's clear that something Dolores is doing (acting outside of her loop for starters) is bothering Ford enough to question her. It may be that he senses that she's getting too close to breaking free of her loop altogether, which may be the same thing as getting to the center of the maze, and he thought it'd be best to bring her in for questioning.

[phoenyx]

14 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Wow, you found an Orion link in there along with the kachina doll references.  Cool!

Yeah, I saw that, and then forgot to mention it, glad you reminded me :-)

14 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Apparently there's a theory floating around that all of Dolores' interactions with Bernard and Ford are via a link directly to her (positronic?) brain rather than in-person.  If so, how could you explain the scene where Bernard physically hands Dolores  the book Alice in Wonderland and has her read from it?

Nice, I had forgotten about the book :-). In theory, even that could be done in her mind- if these links are directly to the brain, then think how it is in the matrix. To quote a bit of dialogue from a film called "The Matrix" (if anyone here hasn't seen it, I definitely recommend it, as it has some very interesting concepts regarding androids):

**

Neo: This...this isn't real?

Morpheus: What is real. How do you define real? If you’re talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. 

**

Source: https://sfy.ru/transcript/matrix_ts

Edited November 6, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

On 10/31/2016 at 9:07 AM, themadman said:

You know it's gratuitous nudity in #Westworld when as a straight man, you find yourself going, "OK, enough with the tits display!" 

I thought it was more gratuitous extras, laugh :-p. I didn't see the need for so many of them. In regards to nudity, I think if we had more of respectful nudity on TV and less violence (often disguised by the term "action"), we'd all be in a much better place.

[phoenyx]

On 11/1/2016 at 1:53 PM, Hootis said:

They're robots. So what if they're naked? You have to include the context. Did you see "Under the Skin" with a very nude Scarlett Johansson? Or "Ex Machina?" Did you find those things sexy?

I didn't see "Under the Skin", but I -did- see Ex Machina and yes, I thought they were sexy. The same applies in Westworld. One thing though, although I thought this was much more the case when there were just a few of them, instead of the large scene with so many- the more there are, the less attention is generally given to any particular interaction between the actors. Lisa Joy, one of the creators of Westworld, was -aiming- for sexy androids. Here's a bit of dialogue she had with a reporter from Entertainment Weekly on the orgy scene this episode:

**

You have a scene with the orgy pile. I think people watching this wonder: What is it like on set for all those extras when all that’s being shot and simulated? What’s the mood like, and, anecdotally, did anything interesting happen while shooting this?

Joy: I was on set the whole time for that. For me, I get a little shy around this stuff sometimes. It’s very strange, you’re looking at the actors coming in for these roles and you have to do a wardrobe test. In this case you’re not testing clothing so much, it’s what we call the “furry bikini” — they put on a merkin and you look at the way their [body] paint is laid out. I think people imagine when something is sexy on screen that it might be sexy on the day, but it’s not. It’s a bunch of people putting on robes and going to craft services and staying warm, and then doing their thing. But the actors were incredible, and we had a sex consultant on set to make sure everybody felt comfortable and to make sure the scenes were looking sexy enough, and I think that helped. 

**

Source: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/30/westworld-orgy-interview

I don't see anything wrong with there being sexy naked scenes on TV myself, as long as it's done in a respectful manner.

Edited November 6, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

On 10/31/2016 at 10:28 AM, Maximum Taco said:

I still don't buy that they would just let it play out.

With the other stray Bernard sends Elsie to investigate with Ashley, he doesn't just say "Oh it's probably just Ford fucking with the narrative cycles. Ignore it."

Add into the fact that the other stray very nearly killed Elsie, and odd behaviour is going to be VERY closely monitored.

When Maurice (the stray woodcutter in episode 3) went awol, there weren't so many androids in the same boat. By the time Dolores went astray, things were decidedly different. It's clear from what control said when they noticed she wasn't in her usual loop:

**

[The Park HQ. 3-D Map Observation Room. Several people are present going about their tasks. Stubbs observes the map.]

Surveillance Tech 1: We've got a host making a pretty big deviation from her loop.

Ashley Stubbs: Which one?

Surveillance Tech 1: The rancher's daughter from Sweetwater.

Ashley Stubbs: Dolores. Is she accompanying a guest?

Surveillance Tech 1: Unclear. The boss is disrupting so many storylines with his new narrative, it's hard to tell.

**

 

Even so, Stubbs decides to flag her for a pick up anyway:
**
Ashley Stubbs: Flag her with Behavior. They can pull her today. Make sure everything's checking out.

**

And someone (whether employee or android) -does- come to pick Dolores up, willingly or unwillingly, but William comes to Dolores' rescue by saying that she's with him.

Edited November 6, 2016 by phoenyx

[sneakyflute]

2 hours ago, phoenyx said:

I think you mean the beginning of episode 4. I think that William appearing in the scene behind Dolores is a bit abrupt. I think she probably should have seen him when she looked around herself if he was so closeby. Nevertheless, I don't see how that helps with the 2 timeline theory. 

It's a subtle editing trick to convey the fact that she's alone in the present before it shifts to a memory of her with William in the same location.

Also, to everyone who is opposed to the theory that they're depicting two time periods at once: how do you explain the changing logo and the absence of William and Lawrence from the shot immediately following their meeting in the caboose? These things are not done by accident. 

[phoenyx]

7 hours ago, sneakyflute said:

It's a subtle editing trick to convey the fact that she's alone in the present before it shifts to a memory of her with William in the same location.

Wow, I must admit that would be a pretty elegant subtlety.

7 hours ago, sneakyflute said:

Also, to everyone who is opposed to the theory that they're depicting two time periods at once: how do you explain the changing logo and the absence of William and Lawrence from the shot immediately following their meeting in the caboose?

From what I understand, the logos were in different places- companies can have variations on their logo. As to this meeting in the caboose, what episode was that in?

Edited November 6, 2016 by phoenyx

[KaleyFirefly]

Despite all the nice male nudity, I thought this was the most boring episode so far. Nothing much happened. Even Anthony Hopkins' convo with MIB didn't reveal much. 

Why would they bother to have robot birds? Why not just use real birds?

There just wasn't much that advanced the storyline. The most interesting thing that happened was when Maeve woke up in the facility, but then the episode ended.

[sneakyflute]

27 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Wow, I must admit that would a pretty elegant subtlety.

From what I understand, the logos were in different places- companies can have variations on their logo. As to this meeting in the caboose, what episode was that in?

The reason there's so much focus on the logo is because the black and silver (and what appears to be a more retro style) logo is shown upon William's arrival and also in one Ford's flashbacks yet it's nowhere to be seen in the present-day park. An entirely different logo shows up during an unveiling of new hosts in the present and is also the show's official logo, suggesting a modern rebranding of the park. 

The train scene I'm talking about happens at the end of episode 5. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by sneakyflute

[Gobi]

8 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Despite all the nice male nudity, I thought this was the most boring episode so far. Nothing much happened. Even Anthony Hopkins' convo with MIB didn't reveal much. 

Why would they bother to have robot birds? Why not just use real birds?

There just wasn't much that advanced the storyline. The most interesting thing that happened was when Maeve woke up in the facility, but then the episode ended.

Robot birds supports the theory that Westworld is not on earth. It has been terraformed on some other moon or planet. Real animals/birds would require much more personnel, either to take care of them or keep them under control.

[phoenyx]

11 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Robot birds supports the theory that Westworld is not on earth. It has been terraformed on some other moon or planet. Real animals/birds would require much more personnel, either to take care of them or keep them under control.

An interesting theory. Personally, I wonder if one of the reasons the creators decided to do not just robot humans, but robot everything (are even the flies robotic, or is that the exception?), was perhaps to get us to think about what it means to be in the privileged "human class" vs. any other species. I can't help but think of how the techies refer to the androids (and presumably any other robot in the park) as livestock.

[phoenyx]

8 hours ago, sneakyflute said:

The reason there's so much focus on the logo is because the black and silver (and what appears to be a more retro style) logo is shown upon William's arrival and also in one Ford's flashbacks yet it's nowhere to be seen in the present-day park. An entirely different logo shows up during an unveiling of new hosts in the present and is also the show's official logo, suggesting a modern rebranding of the park. 

Interesting.

8 hours ago, sneakyflute said:

The train scene I'm talking about happens at the end of episode 5. 

Oh my f***ing God. I had vaguely heard of this before, but when I took a look at it... For those who didn't catch this either, take a look at Episode 5, 48 minutes in. Take note of the fact that William is talking to Lawrence on the left side of Dolores. Then, after the camera goes back to Dolores and she says "I'm coming", the camera once again pans to where William and Lawrence -should- be sitting. Only they're not there. sneakyflute, you've just made a believer out of me -.-

Edited November 6, 2016 by phoenyx

[NutMeg]

It seemed to me that all we saw of and in Pariah was meant to show how different, in every way, it was from Sweetwater. If we thought Sweetwater was wild, this was meant to shock us in how we had seen nothing yet. Not only nudity and sex, in public and at the orgy, but also the outrageousness of it all, the atmosphere of a Carnival gone crazy, the gold paint, the hallucinations, the overtones of everything, and, above all, the level of violence, not only among hosts (nitro, now, he?) but most importantly towards the guests, who for the first time are in physical danger. There may be a limit to how far the guests are strangled, beaten up, etc. (which is an elegant mirror image of TMIB knowing how far/how much blood he can drain from the hosts without killing them), but it is still the first time we've seen guests in (apparent, at least) physical danger. In Pariah, it's almost as if for a change the guests are fair game, whereas in Sweetwater, despite some situations like with the female guest, it is the hosts that are fair game. 

As for why the robot birds? Who know, they might be extinct by the time the show takes place. And the flies are the only uncontrollable living things that remain (it might have been more realistic to have cockroaches instead, but I doubt the scene of Dolores swatting a cockroach would have had the same effect, as it would not have had the same vibe of normal human behaviour but totally unexpected robot behaviour).  

[Gobi]

I haven't made up my mind about the two timelines theory (which means, in essence, that I don't accept it), and I 've been wondering why. The evidence for it is intriguing, although I think alternative explanations can be given, and I like twists in stories, so why not?

The reason has nothing to do with the for and against evidence. Rather, it is because I think that, other than setting up the audience for a big "Gothca!", what is the point?

We know that there was a major malfunction in the park in its early days. We also know that it was dealt with, and no other has occurred for 30 years. We know Delos stepped in with money. Who cares if Logan was the one who persuaded Delos to do so? We already know what happened.

That being the case, if the William/Logan story is about those events (or even if not, but still in the past), there is nothing at stake. We know how it turns out. We know, from TMIB and others, that only Arnold has died in Westworld; therefore, neither William nor Logan is at any great risk. Nor is Dolores, as we know she survives.

If the W/L/D story is set in the past, then we've wasted a whole season on backstory. Why hide it, if that's what it is. Why not just show the W/L/D story, then flash forward to the present? And if William or Logan is TMIB, again, who needs this story? TMIB has been pretty clear about his motivations, and none of it matches William's or Logan's story. We don't need their story to understand TMIB, even if he is one of them.

If there are two timelines, it is going to distract from the real story. The audience is going to be looking for tricks and surprises, rather than concentrating on the story and the issues it raises.

Of course, now that I've given my reasons, we will probably find out very soon that there are two timelines. Feel free to mock me when that happens.

[Ellaria]

I just binged-watched all five episodes while suffering with a sinus infection so I may be a little confused about some of the "goings-on." 

Regarding the non-linear timeline theory...

I am cautious not to place a lot of emphasis on the different logos. I have worked in marketing/advertising for many different corporations and it isn't uncommon to see use of logos with (subtle) differences. It is sloppy but not uncommon. When we consider Logan's comment that the park is "hemorrhaging money," I can accept that management decided not to update logos in the basement and visitor center. Alternatively, that's a real world explanation and may not apply to a show where details are important. So the logos could be a clue...

I noticed that Lawrence and William disappeared from the train car. I just don't know what to make of it. It implies - I think - that the absence of L/W from that last moment is from a different point on time. Would that mean that Dolores rides that train in the past with L/W and then, in the current day, without them? To what end?

I am intrigued by the role that "moneymen" and corporations have played and will play in the success of the park. Ford tells Theresa that someone from management (paraphrasing here) is already in the park. Is it MIB? Or, if it is a linear timeline, is it Logan? 

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading the thoughtful discussions here.