S01.E02: Chestnut

[Dobian]

22 hours ago, arc said:

The animals all being robots brings up another issue: how is meat served to the guests? People had to slaughter cows pretty close to when they wanted to eat back then, what with no refrigeration. Do host chefs have a mental blind spot for delivery of meat cuts? Do robot cows have edible meat on them?

They can't just be hosts slaughtering and serving real cows because the pilot made such a big deal about hosts not harming any genuinely living thing.

(Which BTW seems silly; it breaks immersion like crazy that hosts don't even swat at flies...)

I can't find any logical reason why you would go to all that expense to build robot animals when you can just bring in the real thing for pennies on the dollar.

[DarkRaichu]

Just now, Dobian said:

I can't find any logical reason why you would go to all that expense to build robot animals when you can just bring in the real thing for pennies on the dollar.

It is about control and predictability.  With programmed horses, they do not need to worry about one being jumpy and accidentally kicks a host's head off.  Also, I bet the robot horses do not shit all over the park :D 

[izabella]

19 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Does that matter?

They fear death under the parameters they were programmed to feel and fear death.  I don't see that as being in any way the same as fearing being decommissioned since that is not death as the robots (are programmed to) know and understand death.  Perhaps others see it differently, YMMV and all that.

[Netfoot]

17 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I can't find any logical reason why you would go to all that expense to build robot animals when you can just bring in the real thing for pennies on the dollar.

Perhaps horses are extinct?

[izabella]

13 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

It is about control and predictability.  With programmed horses, they do not need to worry about one being jumpy and accidentally kicks a host's head off.  Also, I bet the robot horses do not shit all over the park :D 

People in the real world would feel all kinds of ways about horses being harmed or killed, I imagine.

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, izabella said:

People in the real world would feel all kinds of ways about horses being harmed or killed, I imagine.

Ah you were thinking farther ahead.  I was just looking at it from practical stand points.  Real horses poop anytime and anywhere they need to.  That is just nature.  I am going back to the real but not too real expectation that the guests have from the park.  I do not think the people that can afford $40k per entrance appreciate poops here and there even though that would be authentic to the period. :D

[arc]

55 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

So why was Maeve scheduled for decommissioning?  Was it because she was an older model? The other hosts were re-purposed (ie. Delores' new dad), why not her?  The "Madame" programming was not unique to her since the other girl could take over as madame when she was frozen.  So why not simply reprogram her to be town lady #3 (for example)?

Come to think of it, why are thousands of robots decommissioned and put in storage, instead of being physically recycled and their brains put into digital storage? Why would corporate only allow 20 new hosts when it seems relatively trivial to build hosts, considering how many were built and decommissioned already over the decades?

That said, I can see a rationale for not reprogramming Maeve: the town already has enough random town ladies right now and the narrative designer doesn't have the desire to add another.

33 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I can't find any logical reason why you would go to all that expense to build robot animals when you can just bring in the real thing for pennies on the dollar.

Because the pilot went to such great lengths to say and demonstrate that the hosts couldn't hurt real living things, and producing meat for food necessarily entails killing an animal. And didn't we see White hat and Black hat chowing down on steaks in this episode? Maybe it comes from a robot cow, I don't know. But I kind of doubt it.

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Too much gore for me, though the premise was interesting at first.  I didn't realize this robotic theme park fantasy island holodeck would be all about violence and death and gore and rape, which makes the dawning independent thinking and behavior of the robots less appealing to me.  I might give it a few more episodes to see if it does more with the premise than indulge in creative ways to show sexual violence and killing.

I agree. The premise is interesting, and I hope there is a payoff for the viewers at the end, although I can't envision the current storyline extending beyond one season.  (How many episodes is the show scheduled for, 10 or 12? ) But so far, I have seen nothing in the park that would appeal to anyone except men. We have seen one actual family and heard one line about "the first time I came with the family".  But Sweetwater is supposed to be the starting place, the mildest level, and yet we've seen innumerable killings there, many out on the street where any passing guest would see them. That can't possibly be the PG-level entertainment, if it really exists. Just wandering around the wilderness, where we saw the family meet Delores, doesn't seem like much fun to me. And while they're out there alone, what if they come upon a group of guests who are going "straight evil" and decide that the woman is a host who can be raped? What happens if there is no real host around to "take one for the team"?

 I have no doubt that many women (myself included) might indulge a fantasy of an interlude with a handsome cowboy,  but I think few are interested in mindless sex with numerous partners followed up by shooting everyone in the saloon as a chaser. That's a man's fantasy. That's a man's idea of the "best vacation ever!"  Not all men of course, probably not most men. But certainly not women. Not to mention the proposed new Odyssey on Red River story of Sizemore's (who I think is really a Sizelittle).  Rape, pillage, vivisection, self-cannibalism??  WTF??????  What kind of people does that appeal to? What kind of world is out there outside the boundaries of Westworld?

I know it's HBO. I also know they're invoking some wonderful circular logic where they say they're only showing nudity, rape and senseless violence in order to comment on nudity, rape and senseless violence. But in light of the "I was on her like a bitch" and "I can grab her by the pussy and she'll let me" revelations of 48 hours earlier, I was more than a little queasy watching this episode.  It was like the theme park version of "locker-room talk".

[sjohnson]

As to the discussion about whether the robots/androids "feel" pain? Consider regular people feeling pain.

If you jab a sleeping person with a pin, who feels the pain and wakes up?

What does anesthesia take away so that cutting into a person on a surgical table by contrast does not? 

How can amputees feel pain in a missing limb?

How can some hypnotized people appear not to feel pain?

Why do depressed people feel the pain so much more intensely than people with more average mood?

How can people be shot and not even be aware?

Plainly, pain reception in human beings is a complex matter.

What do we make of reports that dying people sometimes no longer seem to feel pain?

As to *why* people feel pain, something like Hansen's disease (leprosy) that deads pain receptors historically has led to sever damage to body tissues, because damaging behavior is not stopped by the warning of pain. If you believe function constitutes an answer to the "why" question, plainly people feel pain as a warning mechanism. It is a kind of programming, by evolution instead of engineers. But if our pain is programmed too, how are we different from robots/androids? 

The chances that this show will let any of its story be informed by even this basic awareness of real people and how their bodies and minds work is very unlikely, though.

[marcee]

13 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I agree. The premise is interesting, and I hope there is a payoff for the viewers at the end, although I can't envision the current storyline extending beyond one season.  (How many episodes is the show scheduled for, 10 or 12? ) But so far, I have seen nothing in the park that would appeal to anyone except men. We have seen one actual family and heard one line about "the first time I came with the family".  But Sweetwater is supposed to be the starting place, the mildest level, and yet we've seen innumerable killings there, many out on the street where any passing guest would see them. That can't possibly be the PG-level entertainment, if it really exists. Just wandering around the wilderness, where we saw the family meet Delores, doesn't seem like much fun to me. And while they're out there alone, what if they come upon a group of guests who are going "straight evil" and decide that the woman is a host who can be raped? What happens if there is no real host around to "take one for the team"?

 I have no doubt that many women (myself included) might indulge a fantasy of an interlude with a handsome cowboy,  but I think few are interested in mindless sex with numerous partners followed up by shooting everyone in the saloon as a chaser. That's a man's fantasy. That's a man's idea of the "best vacation ever!"  Not all men of course, probably not most men. But certainly not women. Not to mention the proposed new Odyssey on Red River story of Sizemore's (who I think is really a Sizelittle).  Rape, pillage, vivisection, self-cannibalism??  WTF??????  What kind of people does that appeal to? What kind of world is out there outside the boundaries of Westworld?

While I tend to agree that these fantasies are probably more man-centric, we definitely did see and hear women interested in participating. I remember hearing one say to another something about enjoying the bad boys more. Obviously, there was the woman Maeve threw herself on. But I could also see this a girls' weekend... where they might come as a group to get drunk and grope handsome cowboys. Maybe some go with their hubbies and enjoy a damsel in distress fantasy during which their husband can save them from some terrible fate; maybe some are dominant in life and want to be dominated in Westworld; maybe some enjoy guns and actually want to play the heroine. I wouldn't want to go camping and I would think (stereotypically) more men would prefer a camping and fishing vacation than women - just as more men would prefer a Westworld vacation than women - but that doesn't mean women wouldn't or couldn't enjoy it too.

[Quilt Fairy]

1 minute ago, marcee said:

But I could also see this a girls' weekend... where they might come as a group to get drunk and grope handsome cowboys.

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to go see the Chippendales?

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, arc said:

Come to think of it, why are thousands of robots decommissioned and put in storage, instead of being physically recycled and their brains put into digital storage? Why would corporate only allow 20 new hosts when it seems relatively trivial to build hosts, considering how many were built and decommissioned already over the decades?

That said, I can see a rationale for not reprogramming Maeve: the town already has enough random town ladies right now and the narrative designer doesn't have the desire to add another.

That is a good question.  I think the only ones going to the basement are the ones with glitches the programmers cannot explain or fix.  I might have answered my own question as IIRC the (script?) team did tinker with Maeve's aggression level (tried to fix her) before passing her to the whatever team that found her infection.

[marcee]

41 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to go see the Chippendales?

If they still exist in this world... duhn duhn duuuuhhhhhnnnn.....

[fastiller]

42 minutes ago, marcee said:

 But I could also see this a girls' weekend... where they might come as a group to get drunk and grope handsome cowboys. Maybe some go with their hubbies and enjoy a damsel in distress fantasy during which their husband can save them from some terrible fate; maybe some are dominant in life and want to be dominated in Westworld; maybe some enjoy guns and actually want to play the heroine. I wouldn't want to go camping and I would think (stereotypically) more men would prefer a camping and fishing vacation than women - just as more men would prefer a Westworld vacation than women - but that doesn't mean women wouldn't or couldn't enjoy it too.

 

40 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to go see the Chippendales?

But these aren't people who are strapped for cash, right?   Vacationing in Westworld takes $$.  

I forget: what sort of vacation was the couple from the first episode on?  They didn't seem to be going 'damsel in distress' or 'heroine' but something different.  He seemed to be wanting to be the hero, right?

[Gobi]

I'm hoping that the final scene of the series will be corporate revealing their newest model - the T-800, standing underneath the Cyberdyne logo.

[peach]

16 minutes ago, fastiller said:

I forget: what sort of vacation was the couple from the first episode on?  They didn't seem to be going 'damsel in distress' or 'heroine' but something different.  He seemed to be wanting to be the hero, right?

Yes, I was going to bring them up also.  She was totally into it when her husband shot the bad guy and they took the photos with the reward money.  There was another couple that had to be "rescued" when the milk drinking bandit went awry. 

 

1 hour ago, marcee said:

 I wouldn't want to go camping and I would think (stereotypically) more men would prefer a camping and fishing vacation than women - just as more men would prefer a Westworld vacation than women - but that doesn't mean women wouldn't or couldn't enjoy it too.

I agree.  One of the fun things about the original 70's film is that there were actually three worlds to choose from, Westworld, a Roman empire world, and a medieval world.  Westworld attracted the gunslinging dudes, but the women seemed to be enjoying lounging around Rome and enjoying the....scenery.  As one does.

[peach]

On 10/10/2016 at 5:12 PM, IDFfm0870 said:

Anybody else thinks that Theresa is a host without knowing about it herself? I got the feeling from the way she behaved in this episode, especially in her scenes with Bernard. Maybe it's the actress, but I got that host vibe all the way through.

I think it's possible, with the way she resists all small talk or details about where she goes or what she does.   I like her character.

[AuntiePam]

4 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

It is about control and predictability.  With programmed horses, they do not need to worry about one being jumpy and accidentally kicks a host's head off.  Also, I bet the robot horses do not shit all over the park :D 

Good point, but it must be difficult to program a horse.  I assume they can be programmed to follow the rider's command, but what if the guest doesn't know how to ride?  Do they just program gentleness? 

 

3 hours ago, arc said:

Because the pilot went to such great lengths to say and demonstrate that the hosts couldn't hurt real living things, and producing meat for food necessarily entails killing an animal. And didn't we see White hat and Black hat chowing down on steaks in this episode? Maybe it comes from a robot cow, I don't know. But I kind of doubt it.

Yeah, no slaughterhouses in Sweetwater.  If there were, they'd really have a fly problem, not to mention a huge stink. 

[Terrafamilia]

FYI, the Westworld website has a map. There is an area called Ghost Nation. I think that is the place from whence the Indians with the white paint and who are involved in the settler massacre storyline come. Evidently Sizemore wanted to use some (all?) of them in his magnum opus, plus hosts representing other tribes.

[BigBlueMastiff]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I agree. The premise is interesting, and I hope there is a payoff for the viewers at the end, although I can't envision the current storyline extending beyond one season.  (How many episodes is the show scheduled for, 10 or 12? ) But so far, I have seen nothing in the park that would appeal to anyone except men. We have seen one actual family and heard one line about "the first time I came with the family".  But Sweetwater is supposed to be the starting place, the mildest level, and yet we've seen innumerable killings there, many out on the street where any passing guest would see them. That can't possibly be the PG-level entertainment, if it really exists. Just wandering around the wilderness, where we saw the family meet Delores, doesn't seem like much fun to me. And while they're out there alone, what if they come upon a group of guests who are going "straight evil" and decide that the woman is a host who can be raped? What happens if there is no real host around to "take one for the team"?

 I have no doubt that many women (myself included) might indulge a fantasy of an interlude with a handsome cowboy,  but I think few are interested in mindless sex with numerous partners followed up by shooting everyone in the saloon as a chaser. That's a man's fantasy. That's a man's idea of the "best vacation ever!"  Not all men of course, probably not most men. But certainly not women. Not to mention the proposed new Odyssey on Red River story of Sizemore's (who I think is really a Sizelittle).  Rape, pillage, vivisection, self-cannibalism??  WTF??????  What kind of people does that appeal to? What kind of world is out there outside the boundaries of Westworld?

Agree completely, but the whole idea of virtual reality is unappealing to me. I've always found amusement parks boring, and interacting with a bunch of random guests and lifelike androids in a wild west setting, no thanks. I loved those choose your own adventure books when I was a kid, but the unpredictability of WW and the creepy male guests living out sick fantasies, gross. I, too, am rooting for the android revolution, and curious about this maze...

[Accidental Martyr]

There have been interviews on ew.com with the showrunners for the first two episodes. This addresses the question of guest safety.

Quote

We talked a lot about the rules of the park. A lot of it isn’t made explicit in the series but there’s something called the Good Samaritan Reflex within the hosts. So say you’re in a bar fight and some guy has a knife and maybe there’s even another guest that you didn’t know and he thinks you’re a host and he’s gonna stab you in the back. In that instance, a good Samaritan host would seamlessly intersect and get in that fight and literally take that knife for you. Now accidents can happen – falling off a cliff and things like that. But you know it’s mitigated somewhat because even the animals – aside from the flies – are hosts, so no horse is going to buck you to your death.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/09/westworld-showrunners-second-episode

Edited October 12, 2016 by Accidental Martyr

[arc]

OK, on rewatch, here's what happens when guests enter the dining car (?) of the train: a black band behind the glass door moves up, as if the dining car is on an elevator platform moving down. This happens both with William and his friend, who enter separately, suggesting that each changing room is stacked on a different level and the train moves downward until it's picked up all guests, at which point it is then set on the regular train tracks to travel into Sweetwater. So that's how I think the train entrance works.

[Mackey]

Is wanting to shoot robots for fun any more "sociopathic" than wanting to shoot animals for fun? Lots of people do the second one. That's a lot of sociopaths.

[scrb]

Well some of the big game hunters, especially those who go after endangered species, are assholes.

As for pretending to shoot humans, like MiB did at that little town, after terrorizing a woman and her daughter, eventually killing the woman, it's all make-believe since he only shot robots.  But it's strange that he wanted to play out that particular storyline.

How does playing a cruel killer help him access deeper levels of the game?  In any event, the game design has the fundamental flaw that guests can't be stopped or lose.  Soon as they get shot by a bullet, the story should end and he should have to go back to the beginning of the level.  Say his gun stops working until he goes back to the town to reset it or something.

Edited October 12, 2016 by scrb

[dr pepper]

Superman used to kill robots. He would say it didn't come under his "code against killing" since they weren't actually alive to begin with. That always upset me, as the robots were still thinking beings. In the most extreme case, Superman returned to Earth after some time away, to discover that everyone seemed to hate him. Eventually he realized that someone had tricked him in to landing on an empty world instead of Earth, but with a full scale mockup of Metropolis. So he dug up some plutonium and vaporized the city and all 500,000 robots in it.

I say, he's a murderer.

On the flip side, he never applied this reasoning to Brainiac.

In the case of Westworld, the robots may be under a lot of preprogrammed constraints, but within that they still make their own decisions.

I say, they count as people.

And if they don't, then it should be acceptable to rape and murder Calvinists.

[NutMeg]

16 hours ago, arc said:

Come to think of it, why are thousands of robots decommissioned and put in storage, instead of being physically recycled and their brains put into digital storage? Why would corporate only allow 20 new hosts when it seems relatively trivial to build hosts, considering how many were built and decommissioned already over the decades?

That said, I can see a rationale for not reprogramming Maeve: the town already has enough random town ladies right now and the narrative designer doesn't have the desire to add another.

This is a very interesting question. My first reaction was that visitors might want to see different faces, but in that case why not just wipe the existing face and replace it with a new one? Of course, on a meta level, that doesn't work, because we the viewers are interested in the actors playing the hosts, but in the logic of Westworld, why retire characters and create new one from scratch when you could just alter your existing ones?

[withanaich]

Quote

I agree.  One of the fun things about the original 70's film is that there were actually three worlds to choose from, Westworld, a Roman empire world, and a medieval world.  Westworld attracted the gunslinging dudes, but the women seemed to be enjoying lounging around Rome and enjoying the....scenery.  As one does.

I'm holding out hope that we get a glimpse of Roman World or Medieval World, maybe in the season finale. I think there would be a lot of people, both male and female, who would happily go on a vacation like this (look at how heinous people are in the real world now, and we don't know what things are like on the show outside the confines of the park). But I also believe that there would be many people who would be disinterested and even repulsed by the very idea. And, like Quilt Fairy, I don't understand what kind of parent would possibly take their kids to Westworld. Even the "tame" areas seem like adult entertainment. I'm sure there are people who would drag their kids on a boring-ass walkabout through the desert, but those are supposed to be the more dangerous areas of Westworld.

I don't remember which poster raised this as a possibility, but it might be interesting to hear what people's reactions to Westworld are in the world at large. Are there protesters outside the park? Hosts' rights activists? Talking heads arguing about the damage people are doing to their kids by taking them to Westworld? Hackers trying to make the robots run amok because they think it would be funny? Or is everyone just blindly going along with it like they're robots themselves? The writers have done a good job so far of world-building inside the park, but we need more context. Even if they don't directly show us what's going on outside, we should hear the employees talking about it from time to time.

[dmc]

The weirdest part of this show for me is that a lot of people's fantasy is living in the wild west....of all the fantasy places I would go this would not be on my list

[Netfoot]

18 hours ago, arc said:

Come to think of it, why are thousands of robots decommissioned and put in storage, instead of being physically recycled and their brains put into digital storage?

I assume if you have an older model -- it may appear perfectly human, but be bordering on obsolescence on the inside -- and it starts to become problematic in some way, you simply take it out of service.  It can no longer be used, so it is retired.  Remember the old guy who was chatting with Dr. Ford, and then zipped himself into the bag?  Just guessing, but perhaps Ford doesn't want his creations destroyed? 

[DarkRaichu]

9 hours ago, scrb said:

In any event, the game design has the fundamental flaw that guests can't be stopped or lose.  Soon as they get shot by a bullet, the story should end and he should have to go back to the beginning of the level.  Say his gun stops working until he goes back to the town to reset it or something.

Some people like to play in God mode (invulnerability + unlimited ammo).  Beside, Westworld is also a wish / fantasy fulfillment place. Who really wants to lose in their own fantasy?  Especially after paying $40k to enter the place.

[leejaneagles]

24 minutes ago, dmc said:

The weirdest part of this show for me is that a lot of people's fantasy is living in the wild west....of all the fantasy places I would go this would not be on my list

Just as a lot of people are speculating that the outside world is in Armageddon mode, it could be the polar opposite and what you'd consider "future world" could just be the real world, there are no clues either way. 

So if you assume that a futuristic adventure with flying cars and trips to other planets is already happening in reality, that only leaves historical points to make theme parks. The other thing you have to assume is this show has been created for an American audience. The Wild West is very much American History and therefore probably appeals to them from a real life perspective in terms of getting ratings on TV and also in the universe of Westworld everyone seems to be American so again you'd assume that this theme park is based in America.

Maybe there is a Mongolian World in Asia or a 1066 World in the UK. 

The other thing is they have to cater to casual guests, not necessarily history buffs. I'm sure there are Historians who would love to walk around the completely basic world of Jesus Christ but for the normal guest there isn't much to do there. The Wild West is kinda like the newest oldest time if that makes sense. You get the feeling of living in the past but you can still use guns, alcohol, trains, the Hosts have a basic understanding of how the world works and things like cars and planes are in the process of being invented etc.

[Gobi]

They showed Maeve talking to Japanese guests in Japanese, so it isn't just an American thing in the show. Westerns have been very popular in Euorpean cuuntries as well, so I think  there would  be a market for Westworld beyond America.

[dmc]

14 minutes ago, leejaneagles said:

Just as a lot of people are speculating that the outside world is in Armageddon mode, it could be the polar opposite and what you'd consider "future world" could just be the real world, there are no clues either way. 

So if you assume that a futuristic adventure with flying cars and trips to other planets is already happening in reality, that only leaves historical points to make theme parks. The other thing you have to assume is this show has been created for an American audience. The Wild West is very much American History and therefore probably appeals to them from a real life perspective in terms of getting ratings on TV and also in the universe of Westworld everyone seems to be American so again you'd assume that this theme park is based in America.

Maybe there is a Mongolian World in Asia or a 1066 World in the UK. 

The other thing is they have to cater to casual guests, not necessarily history buffs. I'm sure there are Historians who would love to walk around the completely basic world of Jesus Christ but for the normal guest there isn't much to do there. The Wild West is kinda like the newest oldest time if that makes sense. You get the feeling of living in the past but you can still use guns, alcohol, trains, the Hosts have a basic understanding of how the world works and things like cars and planes are in the process of being invented etc.

It's true we have no idea what the world is like outside of the park. I assume its the future but we don't know what that looks like.   I can also see the wild west appealing more to men than women. 

[Netfoot]

20 minutes ago, leejaneagles said:

Maybe there is a Mongolian World in Asia or a 1066 World in the UK.

Or Pirates.  (Arrr!)  Or naval warfare, or desert caravans, or whatever.  We just don't know.  

[djsunyc]

there's a theory going around that westworld is another planet.  that could be the reason for machine animals.

[leejaneagles]

29 minutes ago, dmc said:

It's true we have no idea what the world is like outside of the park. I assume its the future but we don't know what that looks like.   I can also see the wild west appealing more to men than women. 

Agreed. It definitely appeals to men more and you'd think further on down the line we'd see a world designed for women. Maybe an Amazon world with Wonder Women like characters roaming around. 

I've been thinking of what would be better than Westworld as a vacation; I think the suggestion above 'Pirate World' could be more fun and one I thought of is not Greek World but Greek Mythology World. Bots of Medusa/Minotaurs/The Titans etc would definitely be my first pick. That would probably be a little less open world than WestWorld and more structured gameplay where you have to defeat the various monsters. It might be a better fit for our Man In Black who prefers a deeper meaning in his game. :)

[peach]

For the average visitor, I would liken it more to pretending you're in a movie than playing a game.  It's the Man In Black who perceives it as a game, but mostly because he has the resources to keep going there and work out all the permutations.  (I couldn't understand the point of him letting all that blood out of the guy he scalped, but it occurs to me that he's been experimenting on the robots for a while to see what their limitations are.  It's from experience that he could say he left 3 liters of blood in it, which was just enough for it to stay "alive.")

We think they're sadists for wanting to shoot, kill, and rape, yet Hollywood makes billions of dollars creating worlds where we experience the same thing vicariously. 

[numbnut]

1 hour ago, leejaneagles said:

2 hours ago, dmc said:

It's true we have no idea what the world is like outside of the park. I assume its the future but we don't know what that looks like.   I can also see the wild west appealing more to men than women. 

Agreed. It definitely appeals to men more and you'd think further on down the line we'd see a world designed for women. Maybe an Amazon world with Wonder Women like characters roaming around. 

I vaguely recall one of the cast members saying that the show would address patriarchal society issues. That would fit with the idea that Westworld caters to men living in a world dominated by women.

[arc]

4 hours ago, withanaich said:

I'm holding out hope that we get a glimpse of Roman World or Medieval World, maybe in the season finale.

At the NYCC panel, the creators were specifically asked about whether this version would have other worlds, like Roman World and Medieval World in the original movie. Jonathan Nolan hemmed and hawed for a bit, and then he said something like (paraphrased): "Wait, you said 'Roman World and Medieval World'? No to those." So mmmmmmmmaybe there are other worlds but he did specifically rule out using the same two other themes as the movie did.

[withanaich]

Oh, fun! That's even better, if there are probably definitely other Worlds but we don't have a clue what they'll be yet.

[dmc]

3 hours ago, leejaneagles said:

Agreed. It definitely appeals to men more and you'd think further on down the line we'd see a world designed for women. Maybe an Amazon world with Wonder Women like characters roaming around. 

I've been thinking of what would be better than Westworld as a vacation; I think the suggestion above 'Pirate World' could be more fun and one I thought of is not Greek World but Greek Mythology World. Bots of Medusa/Minotaurs/The Titans etc would definitely be my first pick. That would probably be a little less open world than WestWorld and more structured gameplay where you have to defeat the various monsters. It might be a better fit for our Man In Black who prefers a deeper meaning in his game. :)

When the guy was picking out the gun...I kept asking myself would I want to do this...and the answer is no.  Amazon world sounds amazing. 

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

I vaguely recall one of the cast members saying that the show would address patriarchal society issues. That would fit with the idea that Westworld caters to men living in a world dominated by women.

Yeah I mean this is a man fantasy world.  After two episodes, I could tell.  All of the stuff would appeal to men more than woman. 

[Maximum Taco]

13 hours ago, scrb said:

In any event, the game design has the fundamental flaw that guests can't be stopped or lose.  Soon as they get shot by a bullet, the story should end and he should have to go back to the beginning of the level.  Say his gun stops working until he goes back to the town to reset it or something.

I don't really see Westworld as that type of game, where you can fail due to lack of skill. It's much more a choice based RPG or a visual (or in this case virtual) novel. If you've ever played a Telltale Game, that's the mold I'd be referencing.

You make choices, and your CHOICE always goes through the way you'd like it to. Also no choice can result in your death. But that doesn't mean you can't fail at your goal though.

Suppose you are trying to bring in the wanted outlaw alive. You can make whatever choices you'd like but there remains the possibility that he could escape, or you could inadvertantly kill him, or you could make the choice to kill him because you want to prevent him from killing someone else, or someone else could kill him. Even if the outlaw can't kill you, you can still fail to bring him in.

Suppose you are on a treasure hunt. You could follow the map wrong, or have someone else arrive at the treasure first. Your trusty host sidekick could betray you and try to steal the treasure under cover of night.

Suppose you are pursuing a romance (not a rape, or a mindless fuck session with a hookerbot, but you are trying to get a host to fall in love with you), you could have the host die, or your actions could end up terrifying or repulsing her/him, or she/he could fall in love with someone else.

And if something like that happens, you'd have to wait for the next day (or whenever the narrative cycle resets) to try again.

Of course if your only goal is to rape random hosts and kill random hosts, yeah you can't really fail at that.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[scrb]

Well when you look at popular video games, you would think they'd model a world after war scenarios, especially the glorified aspects of it, like COD.

Or being a hero in some action movie where you get to kill terrorists, save women robots (and of course have sex with them), etc.

Or maybe some appeal to GTA type of games, where you can play an up and coming gangster who gets to shoot up both bad guys and cops.

But if WW is designed to appeal to high-end clients, then maybe they could do safaris or recreation of famous historic events, like being able to play Napoleon or Spartacus or something.  Though billionaires can pay to customize any kind of entertainment they want plus there aren't enough of them to sustain an operation like WW, which must have a huge overhead.

[djsunyc]

war would cause alot of set destruction so that would be pretty expensive to maintain.

there should be a trump world where everyone becomes  fly and just follows him around.

[ennui]

22 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Sweetwater is supposed to be the starting place, the mildest level, and yet we've seen innumerable killings there, many out on the street where any passing guest would see them. That can't possibly be the PG-level entertainment, if it really exists.

Sure it can. We saw guests hanging around on the sidewalk, watching the action, just the same as an Wild West reenactment in any old ghost town. Little kids love those shootouts.

19 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

There is an area called Ghost Nation. I think that is the place from whence the Indians with the white paint and who are involved in the settler massacre storyline come.

Now, this part could get interesting. The Native Americans at Wounded Knee were participating in the Ghost Dance, where they call upon their ancestors to return. I hope the writers are up to the challenge!

On 10/11/2016 at 11:48 AM, DarkRaichu said:

It is about control and predictability.  With programmed horses, they do not need to worry about one being jumpy and accidentally kicks a host's head off.

Except the robot horses were panicking during the shootout, just as natural horses would. 

There seems to be a lot of speculation about WW being a game. I think it's only a game for MiB. For most of the guests, it's an entertaining resort. I doubt they get a lot of repeat visitors, given the price, but maybe they sell season passes. 

Going back to the shootout -- clearly, the hosts are programmed for deadly accuracy. That blonde villain didn't miss a single shot. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by ennui

[Broderbits]

23 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to go see the Chippendales?

That wouldn't be the same kind of totally immersive experience that Westworld is; also, I don't think the Chippendales dancers are allowed much physical contact with the guests.

As to whether or not the Hosts feel pain (or any kind of discomfort for that matter): wouldn't it be totally dependent on what is in their programming? And isn't that like wondering if my stove feels pain when I turn the burner on? They are machines! I know we humans love to anthropomorphize but they don't have actual consciousness, just the outward trappings like facial expressions or gestures. The whole point of the show seems to be The Creator giving these machines real life, but they're not at that point yet. 

[arc]

I raised the "it's ok to play at being a sociopath in GTA" argument with someone on Twitter and he replied that he actually did try to avoid killing except when narrative demanded it, so I guess some people really do act humanely towards even virtual humans.

Which flips the changing room's host question around, come to think of it: "If you can't tell, does it matter?"

[marcee]

17 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

As to whether or not the Hosts feel pain (or any kind of discomfort for that matter): wouldn't it be totally dependent on what is in their programming? And isn't that like wondering if my stove feels pain when I turn the burner on? They are machines! I know we humans love to anthropomorphize but they don't have actual consciousness, just the outward trappings like facial expressions or gestures. The whole point of the show seems to be The Creator giving these machines real life, but they're not at that point yet. 

Then why did we get a line from the scientist (Elsie?) when she was diagnosing Maeve - "She's got some physical discomfort. Put in a request for a full physical at her next rotation."

Obviously they programmed pain receptors so these hosts can actually feel pain. How they process that pain depends on their programming as well, sure - but physical discomfort means physical discomfort and I can't think of another way to define it. And hers was due to an infection. An actual, biological infection.... that a stove can't get.

[Broderbits]

36 minutes ago, marcee said:

And hers was due to an infection. An actual, biological infection.... that a stove can't get.

But computers can get infections and the Hosts are essentially computers. I think the scientist was anthropomorphizing because Maeve presented  expressions that mimicked human discomfort. That's what she was built for, to trick humans into thinking she's real.

I'm really looking forward to the moment when they jump from pre-programmed machines to fully conscious beings with free will, but I don't think we're there yet.

[numbnut]

2 hours ago, ennui said:

Going back to the shootout -- clearly, the hosts are programmed for deadly accuracy. That blonde villain didn't miss a single shot. 

She kept trying to kill the man who was dragged by the horse but there were puffs of green smoke instead of kill shots. Was that a guest? If so, ouch! Westworld's "do no harm" contract doesn't cover accidents, like falling from a cliff, so I guess it's his fault for falling off the horse?