S01.E02: Chestnut

[CofCinci]

51 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

DEd Harris could just be that rich. 

Yes, and perhaps dying - so he's blowing his fortune on WW in order to find the meaning of life or immortality found in the higher-level programming?

Love the speculation that William is a younger MIB/Ed Harris.  At the center of the maze, the series will end with Ed Harris finding his old White Hat. 

[Duke2801]

3 hours ago, dgpolo said:

My point was how can it be a 'previous' scenario if that particular scenario was only now being written. The guys with the painted faces in her dream were part of the 'new story' that Ford said no to.

Unless we don't know when 'now' is and when 'then' was or when 'what will be' takes place.

I don't mean the guy that got hit in the face with the tray because Sizemore didn't like his nose, I meant the ones with the lower parts of their faces painted (in what looked like red, white and blue?) they were in Maeve's dream and then were 'introduced' as part of a new storyline that Ford rejected. Wish I knew how to do screencaps so I could show it.

Yes I know what scene you are referring to, and I still don't think that they are the same Native Americans.  It's a Western Theme park that's been around for decades.  I'm sure there have been LOTS of Native Americans (who may or may not have similar wardrobes and face paint) in their storylines over the years. 

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The animals all being robots brings up another issue: how is meat served to the guests? People had to slaughter cows pretty close to when they wanted to eat back then, what with no refrigeration. Do host chefs have a mental blind spot for delivery of meat cuts? Do robot cows have edible meat on them?

I'm thinking it's all handled by the park employees while the hosts are in "sleep mode" - and built into their memories or what-have-you that the food was delivered by a local rancher/farmer or something. 

[marcee]

I kind of liked the theory that white-hat-guy might've been young MiB, but the theory that w-h-g is running through a different narrative doesn't hold. He's running through a different narrative (ie no bandits, different sherrif, etc) because they had to kill off 10% off the population due to the faulty update... so both the bandits and that whole narrative have been wiped/edited. THAT'S why w-h-g doesn't get the same story, not because it's from 30 years ago. Just sayin'.

[BooBear]

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because they had to kill off 10% off the population due to the faulty update...

Ahh no. Teddy and the Marshal were put back in service. The only two hoasts taken out of service was Abernathy and the one of the robbers.  Everyone else went back. The new writer wanted to kill some of them off but Ford said no to the new storyline. 

[AuntiePam]

1 hour ago, arc said:

The animals all being robots brings up another issue: how is meat served to the guests? People had to slaughter cows pretty close to when they wanted to eat back then, what with no refrigeration. Do host chefs have a mental blind spot for delivery of meat cuts? Do robot cows have edible meat on them?

 

There are probably modern kitchens (and medical facilities) that visitors can't see -- underground levels.  The meat from cattle we see slaughtered in WW likely gets recycled into new cattle. 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around William in a modern high-speed train to William suddenly in the dining car of the WW train.  Is the high-speed train just out of sight when the old train pulls into town? 

I wonder what this show costs.  The sets are gorgeous.  That escalator with hundreds (?) of levels -- wow. 

[marcee]

26 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Ahh no. Teddy and the Marshal were put back in service. The only two hoasts taken out of service was Abernathy and the one of the robbers.  Everyone else went back. The new writer wanted to kill some of them off but Ford said no to the new storyline. 

That's not how I understood it. Do you remember the huuuuuge shootout at the end of episode one? Storyteller was all psyched about his big speech, but then a guest killed that guy before he could make it... Yeah, from what I gather, allll those people were pulled from the narrative (10% of the population, Abernathy being among them); Dolores was cleared. Teddy was cleared (he just happened to be shot that day too). That's why we have a new sheriff and a slightly different narrative. The new story the Storyteller pitched in THIS episode (that was shot down by Ford, no pun intended) was just a brand new story to keep the guests entertained - unrelated to the update.

My interpretation, of course.

ETA: Granted, it's possible Bernard cleared a bunch of them - so maybe they're not ALL out of service... but for sure the milk-pouring guy is done because we saw him go into storage with Abernathy and I assumed some others were retired and marched down there with their ding-a-lings flapping in the wind as well.

Edited October 10, 2016 by marcee

[IDFfm0870]

Anybody else thinks that Theresa is a host without knowing about it herself? I got the feeling from the way she behaved in this episode, especially in her scenes with Bernard. Maybe it's the actress, but I got that host vibe all the way through.

I had only known Thandie Newton from her ER role previously, where I didn't like her (character) at all. What a stunning performance as Maeve.

As for William being the Man in Black, which I didn't think of as a possibility, there is a minor detail from the beginnng of the episode that I found a bit confusing and it might just add to that theory, but maybe it was just a case of strange / bad editing. When Maeve had her first malfunction, I believe it was just after William and Logan had entered the train to go to the city. Maeve was shown being checked and repaired, and after that check up, the guys arrived in the city. Without really thinking about it, I found it to be strange that the train ride would take longer than Maeve having her malfunction in the city followed by the check up and repair at the company bulding. A time jump between storylines would somehow justify this I guess. Cannot remember if Maeve was back in the city when the guys arrived though.

Edited October 10, 2016 by IDFfm0870

[numbnut]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

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By the same token, the nudity feels extremely gratuitous. I'm no prude, and I know this is HBO's thing, kind of, but having the robots sit around and walk around in the nude seems lurid and unnecessary, and is only done to titillate. If these androids are created to look exactly like humans down to the last biological detail, then having them sit around and walk around completely naked during diagnostics, upgrades, interrogations, etc. is something that would probably make a lot of the technicians uncomfortable. They're not mannequins, after all.

No, but they're not thought of as human either. I think if it was your first time working there you would feel uncomfortable, but the employees there seem to have been already used to them and blase about their job. I would like to see the POV of someone who's just been hired on the first day on the job. A "Peggy Olson in the first episode of Mad Men" type of thing.

It also helps to differentiate between the robots and humans to avoid mishaps.

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Also - the changing room host is apparently aware that, at the very least, she may be an android? But the ones in the part aren't aware of that? So some do have self awareness and some don't? How does that work?

The robots are programmed to answer expected park-related questions. The greeter robots are bound to hear "Are you real?" from most guests.

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I wonder what this show costs.  The sets are gorgeous.  That escalator with hundreds (?) of levels -- wow. 

I hear the budget is huge. I think the escalator shot was CGI enhanced (which isn't cheap but it's cheaper than actually building all those levels).

Edited October 10, 2016 by numbnut

[numbnut]

*glitch*

Edited October 11, 2016 by numbnut

[tennisgurl]

Great episode, and an excellent follow up from last week! 

I wonder if they will focus on a different Host every week for awhile. Maybe next week we get more Teddy. I hope so. I love me some James Marsden. I loved everything with Maeve, especially now that she is waking up to. Is it me, or was she even more beautiful in her homesteader outfit than in her madam outfit? Maybe she passes awareness onto someone else next? 

I hope William is actually a decent guy, like he seems. It would be nice to see a few guests who arent total sociopaths. I wonder what his deal is. Does he actually want to be here, or is it actually some kind of work thing? Why is he there with this guy he seems to dislike? 

I do wonder if we are only going to see female hosts used for sex (other than the guy in the threesome who was hardly making contact with black hat guy), or any real same sex hook ups. You would think there would be more of that. But TV seems pretty comfortable with only women as sex bot and men as customers, but maybe they'll shake things up. Its pretty creepy no matter what. It is only episode two. Maybe Teddy hangs out in the brothel all the time because people pick him up there? 

The story line the asshole guy came up with did sound pretty lame and cliche. What will we get next?!?!

[candall]

I can't be the only one who did a loop-di-loop when the man in black wearily observes that "the real world is just chaos, an accident, but in here, every detail adds up to something"--and then three heartbeats later tells noose-dude: 

In a sense, I was . . .  I was born here.

 

Er, welcome home??!

 

I'm sure some of the employees will turn out to be bots--but I also agree with @Gobi's theory that we might be surprised by a guest as well.  Man in Black knows the mechanics in such minute detail and he's awfully determined to locate this mysterious place, which gives off an origination key vibe since it's embedded on the inside of bot scalps . . .

I'm giving myself a headache now.

Edited October 11, 2016 by candall

[CofCinci]

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I do wonder if we are only going to see female hosts used for sex (other than the guy in the threesome who was hardly making contact with black hat guy), or any real same sex hook ups. You would think there would be more of that. But TV seems pretty comfortable with only women as sex bot and men as customers, but maybe they'll shake things up. Its pretty creepy no matter what. It is only episode two. Maybe Teddy hangs out in the brothel all the time because people pick him up there? 

Bernard, who I believe is a bot/"host", was used for sex in this episode.

[tvsoothesthespirit]

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Anybody else thinks that Theresa is a host without knowing about it herself? I got the feeling from the way she behaved in this episode, especially in her scenes with Bernard. Maybe it's the actress, but I got that host vibe all the way through.

I thought exactly the opposite! Bernard is a robot plant - maybe by Anthony Hopkins' character. He just seems a little off to me.

I really hope they aren't messing around with the timeline without making it apparent. For me, there's enough mystery with the maze, Bernard, and growing self-awareness in the robot population!

I also think we could do with some more interesting female guests. Why do the men get to have all the fun?

[AuntiePam]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

I hear the budget is huge. I think the escalator shot was CGI enhanced (which isn't cheap but it's cheaper than actually building all those levels).

The escalator for sure -- it gave me a touch of vertigo -- very well done.

I'm not enough of a film person to recognize what's real and what's CGI.  Like the models being dipped in vats of the milky substance -- even something like that has to be expensive.

I think HBO has shown restraint (so far) with the sex and the nudity.  The host/guest sex scene in this episode was brief.  I hardly notice the breasts and genitalia in the workshop, and putting clothes on the hosts there would be a waste of time, and even a bit prudish.  Also, I think the act of removing clothing has more potential for titillation -- better to have them nude to begin with. 

[Epeolatrix]

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Is his name Ford because of John Ford's westerns? 

Perhaps also because of Henry Ford, who helped bring us the assembly line and who also figures as a religious figure in Brave New World. "Efficiency, production, and consumerism are the most important values here; not morality, compassion, or piety." says Shmoop.

[CofCinci]

21 minutes ago, tvsoothesthespirit said:

I also think we could do with some more interesting female guests. Why do the men get to have all the fun?

Isn't Elsie King (Shannon Woodward's character) a Guest playing scientist?  That's why she went in for the kiss...

[tvsoothesthespirit]

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Isn't Elsie King (Shannon Woodward's character) a Guest playing scientist?  That's why she went in for the kiss...

I forgot about that kiss! I thought she was an actual employee of the park. I think she got dressed in period clothes and went in as part of her job.

[tennisgurl]

All this "are they a robot or a human?" guessing is making me all nostalgic for Battlestar Galatica...

[numbnut]

54 minutes ago, Violet Impulse said:

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Is his name Ford because of John Ford's westerns? 

Perhaps also because of Henry Ford, who helped bring us the assembly line and who also figures as a religious figure in Brave New World. "Efficiency, production, and consumerism are the most important values here; not morality, compassion, or piety." says Shmoop.

The John Ford visual influences are undeniable, especially the shots borrowed from The Searchers.

Edited October 11, 2016 by numbnut

[arc]

I have A Theory. Maybe guests are mind-transferred into robot bodies for their stay in Westworld. It solves the food question. It solves the harm to guest problem. It even explains the changing room to train transition: the guests "change" into their robot bodies in or before the "changing room", and when they exit, they're briefly turned off, then their higher consciousness is turned back on as they enter the train. Seems seamless and avoids needing a teleportation system.

[candall]

2 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

Bernard, who I believe is a bot/"host", was used for sex in this episode.

I'm leaning that way myself.  As I just speculated about the man in black, I think a large part of the fun is going to be discovering which characters aren't what we assume.  I'm already fretting about whether they'll still be able to pull off that particular surprise three seasons down the road.

 

About the sex, I would think a major park demographic might be wealthy 'mature' women who didn't have any objection to paying for the pleasure of admiration, attention and physical caress, without risking potential humiliation from hiring a prostitute or falling prey to a gigolo.**

Apparently handsome Teddy could be convincing that he's waited his whole life to massage someone's feet until told to stop.  Right here, T, where shall I sign?

 

I was wondering about the apartment where Bernard and famous Swedish actress engaged.  It was furnished for romantic liaison, in neutral tones and devoid of personal touches--except for one framed item next to the bed, with a deliberately? obscured photo--so it might be a clue to Bernard's bot-ness, or it might not belong to Bernard exclusively.   I doubt if they'd go into this, but I think availability of bot sex, in suitable surroundings, would be a Westworld upper management perk.  You know all those junior engineers would be looking for a chance--even in the first episode, the analyst leaned in for a kiss.

*******************

**In the original 1970's movie, there was something like "Romanworld," where you could just drape on your toga and head to a big pile of pillows.

[scrb]

Did I hear correctly that the workers weren't cleaning up Maeve for MRSA?

That would make me think twice about visiting.

[AuntiePam]

2 hours ago, tvsoothesthespirit said:

I forgot about that kiss! I thought she was an actual employee of the park. I think she got dressed in period clothes and went in as part of her job.

I think she's an employee -- she's been in both episodes.  Would the company let guests see how the sausage is made?  The kiss was what one reviewer called "equivalent to stealing paper clips from the office" (or something like that).

[benteen]

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I don't agree. Rape, scalping, stabbing, and murder would provide plenty of PR nightmares. Those are avoided only because the hosts are positioned as not being alive. Given that, child abuse wouldn't present a new PR problem. Why would it be ok to kill the parent, but not ok to kill the child? Its clearly allowed for a host to shoot another (adult) host. Why wouldn't a host shooting (or worse) a child host not be treated the same way?

Agreed.  I know this is supposed to take place in the future and we don't know what that future is like.  But I can't imagine, particularly in this current PC culture (even not in this PC culture) there not being a shit storm over a place where people could live out rape fantasies.  I think they'd have an easier time selling the GTA like killings but being known as a place where you could rape life-like robots would never fly.  Killing life-like kids wouldn't fly either.

Edited October 11, 2016 by benteen

[Netfoot]

16 minutes ago, benteen said:

being known as a place where you could rape life-like robots would never fly.

It wouldn't fly in our society.  But who knows what life is like outside the park?

Also, can you rape a machine?  I would argue not.  If I forced myself on my blender, it might be very weird (and possibly painful), but I doubt it would be rape.  What if the machine in question is not being forced but willingly playing a role, like perhaps a sex-worker might?  Again, it probably wouldn't be rape.  

We, the viewer, are beginning to see that the hosts are becoming more than machines.  But the people of the time are completely unaware of this.  Well, most of them are, at least.  To them, the hosts are little more than lifelike dolls, with nothing like free will.  They can't be abused in any way, and since they are not alive, they can't be killed.  Even if shot repeatedly, they can be repaired, and returned to service the very next day.  The kids are not kids.  Dolores is the oldest host, but looks like she is only in her 20s.  The park has been around for at least 30 years, maybe longer. Perhaps the "kids" are all just diminutive hosts, quite possibly 30+ years old. 

In this show, if we aren't careful, our own eyes will deceive us, because everything is not what it seems.

[VCRTracking]

Sizemore's "Is there anything you do like?" made me feel sorry for him.

Edited October 11, 2016 by VCRTracking

[dr pepper]

I suspect the park as it is now, is not 30 years old. I think there were smaller scale encounter venues to start with and grew as they gained popularity. I would suspect that the current incarnation that seems to occupy a huge fraction of Montana is maybe 10 years old. But they keep reusing the older robots even as they build new ones.

As for the nudity, the only thing i have ever been concerned with was that it should be equal opportunity. That's a big failing in GOT. We'll see how it works out in WW.

[spottedreptile]

9 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Yes, and perhaps dying - so he's blowing his fortune on WW in order to find the meaning of life or immortality found in the higher-level programming?

Love the speculation that William is a younger MIB/Ed Harris.  At the center of the maze, the series will end with Ed Harris finding his old White Hat. 

I think it's a little different to that. We know that he's been coming for 30 years, and is one of those privileged VIP Platinum client types. He probably has access to all sorts of goodies that others don't, corporate outings, special 'VIP' exclusive glimpses into Westworld, you know the sort of stuff. Heck, he could even be a shareholder, if he's that rich. The point is that he's possibly a little bored with the conventional park-driven narrative, and is looking for a new challenge. Therefore he's decided to create his own narrative - which is to deconstruct Westworld and pull back the curtain to see what they are really up to. I'm guessing he has a fair idea that there is a deeper agenda than just satisfying rich clients, and he wants to know what that is. It's become his goal - his new game, and he's having fun with it because he knows it's not what the park wants, but is forced to humour him up to a point because he's such a privileged client.

I also suspect he's a complete asshole and the staff absolutely hate him, which adds a little spice to his quest.

[numbnut]

10 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Love the speculation that William is a younger MIB/Ed Harris.

I rewatched with that theory in mind and William's scenes do feel like flashbacks. I also see how Ford's voiceover about "falling in love" suggests that the MiB fell hard for Delores and couldn't handle it when she fell for other guests/hosts or when he had to leave the park without her. When he completes the maze (whatever the hell that is) and meets Ford, will he demand to have Dolores programmed to love only him? It's a cheesy premise but it makes sense for now.

Edited October 11, 2016 by numbnut

[Paws]

Quote

privileged VIP Platinum client types. He probably has access to all sorts of goodies that others don't, corporate outings, special 'VIP' exclusive glimpses into Westworld, you know the sort of stuff. Heck, he could even be a shareholder, if he's that rich. The point is that he's possibly a little bored with the conventional park-driven narrative, and is looking for a new challenge

I'm a huge Disney fan and WDW has something similar. You can do VIP "behind the scenes" tours or go on a "Wild Africa Trek" through Animal Kingdom. These are things that guests on their 5th, 6th, 7th etc visits do at DIsney after they've already ridden all the rides, met all the characters,etc..   I recommend looking into one of the many books about Disney especially their service component. It's fascinating and I love how WestWorld includes so many of those ideas ("the details" in this episode).

Edited October 11, 2016 by Paws

[Jack Shaftoe]

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Joy: We talked a lot about the rules of the park. A lot of it isn’t made explicit in the series but there’s something called the Good Samaritan Reflex within the hosts. So say you’re in a bar fight and some guy has a knife and maybe there’s even another guest that you didn’t know and he thinks you’re a host and he’s gonna stab you in the back. In that instance, a good Samaritan host would seamlessly intersect and get in that fight and literally take that knife for you.

So the hosts have super speed? And what happens if there are only guests with no hosts nearby? If I were a guest this safety measure wouldn't reassure me very much.

Why would William visit the park with his jerk of a non-friend? Surely he knows the park's reputation and would rather either behave in a civilised manner or unleash his darker instincts without some annoying "friend" urging him on.

I am still not sold on the premise. If I were a shareholder in Westwood I would have facepalmed after Ford's speech in the end. Very few people want to pay big bucks to "discover themselves" and even fewer would believe that a theme park would give them the answers. Also, if the hosts become as human-like as Ford wants them to, there would be far more profitable uses for them - well, either that or they will rebel like the Cylons. 

[fastiller]

14 hours ago, numbnut said:

*glitch*

 Edited 8 hours ago by numbnut.

Uh oh!  It's escaped the park! [TeeHee!]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I do wonder if we are only going to see female hosts used for sex (other than the guy in the threesome who was hardly making contact with black hat guy), or any real same sex hook ups. You would think there would be more of that. But TV seems pretty comfortable with only women as sex bot and men as customers, but maybe they'll shake things up. Its pretty creepy no matter what. It is only episode two. Maybe Teddy hangs out in the brothel all the time because people pick him up there? 

Well, we did see Maeve trying it on with a woman this episode, right?

11 hours ago, scrb said:

Did I hear correctly that the workers weren't cleaning up Maeve for MRSA?

That would make me think twice about visiting.

I thought the same thing.

8 hours ago, Netfoot said:

It wouldn't fly in our society.  But who knows what life is like outside the park?

Also, can you rape a machine?  I would argue not.  If I forced myself on my blender, it might be very weird (and possibly painful), but I doubt it would be rape.  What if the machine in question is not being forced but willingly playing a role, like perhaps a sex-worker might?  Again, it probably wouldn't be rape.  

We, the viewer, are beginning to see that the hosts are becoming more than machines.  But the people of the time are completely unaware of this.  Well, most of them are, at least.  To them, the hosts are little more than lifelike dolls, with nothing like free will.  They can't be abused in any way, and since they are not alive, they can't be killed.  Even if shot repeatedly, they can be repaired, and returned to service the very next day.  The kids are not kids.  Dolores is the oldest host, but looks like she is only in her 20s.  The park has been around for at least 30 years, maybe longer. Perhaps the "kids" are all just diminutive hosts, quite possibly 30+ years old. 

In this show, if we aren't careful, our own eyes will deceive us, because everything is not what it seems.

It would also mean that vibrators, and the like, were all victims of rape, right?  I think there's a parallel question (which was raised well in Blade Runner): if a machine/robot/android doesn't know s/he's a machine: can s/he have morality? I hope Westworld touches on that in future episodes.

[Duke2801]

42 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why would William visit the park with his jerk of a non-friend? Surely he knows the park's reputation and would rather either behave in a civilised manner or unleash his darker instincts without some annoying "friend" urging him on.

He's not just a friend.  He's his brother in law and coworker.  Sometimes you have to put up with people you aren't 100% crazy about for the sake of family... and your career.

I don't think we've been given any reason to believe, at this moment, that Bernard or Elsie are bots.  

[Netfoot]

8 hours ago, dr pepper said:

I suspect the park as it is now, is not 30 years old. I think there were smaller scale encounter venues to start with and grew as they gained popularity. I would suspect that the current incarnation that seems to occupy a huge fraction of Montana is maybe 10 years old. But they keep reusing the older robots even as they build new ones.

We know that the last time the park had a serious incident was 30 years ago.  Unless that incident took place on day #1 of operation, the park is more than 30 years in operation.   Also, TMIB has been coming for 30 years.  Unless he paid his first visit on day #1, this also indicates the park is over 30 years old.

Now, a business can be in operation for 30 years and not have to remain in the same location.  So as you say, perhaps they've only been where they are for 10 years.  But initially, they would have needed a huge expanse of land to set the park up.  Rather than move, perhaps they simply expanded from huge to gigantic?  Doesn't really matter.  Whether they simply expanded or moved outright to a new location, the hosts would have continued on in service.  Either way, the "kids" could all be 40.  Or older.

[numbnut]

6 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

I don't think we've been given any reason to believe, at this moment, that Bernard or Elsie are bots. 

If any human character is going to be revealed as a robot, I'm sure there will be subtle hints early on. In Bernard's case, I think the subtext of Ford's dialogue in both eps indicate the possibility of Bernard being Ford's creation. I also think Bernard pondering a boy's photo was referencing Rachel the replicant in Blade Runner. And maybe the writers wanted us to wonder "what if..." when Theresa joked about Bernard's desire to talk after sex (even though he's normally not talkative).

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, fastiller said:

if a machine/robot/android doesn't know s/he's a machine: can s/he have morality?

I'm not sure I understand you.  Do you mean:  Can the machine be expected to behave in a moralistic way?    Or do you mean:  Should the machine have the expectation of being treated in a Moralistic way?  If #1, then the machine will have whatever behaviour it's been programmed to have.  Moral or amoral as the designers see fit.  If #2, again the machine will expect what it has been programmed to expect, but since it is only a machine, we don't have to treat it in any particularly moralistic fashion, any more than we would an automobile or a cellphone.

Now the question of whether the machine knows it's a machine or thinks it's a person.... I don't know how this will alter the situation.  I mean if it is a machine but erroneously thinks it isn't, I don't see how it will behave any differently than to obey it's programming, or why we should treat it any differently than the machine that it is.  

Naturally, if it was a machine but has transitioned or is transitioning to a level of genuine consciousness, this may affect it's programming and therefore it's behaviour.  It might develop morals and alter it's behaviour to suit.  It won't affect the way we treat it, of course, until we become aware of the transition, and accept that this means we are no longer dealing with a machine in the original sense.  I guess some people will recognize and accept this sooner than others.

For my part, I assume all the hosts in Westworld are aware that they are different to the guests.  (This doesn't necessarily mean they are aware that they are mechanical.)  The greeter that was willing to throw a shag at William in the changing rooms seemed to be aware of a difference.  Or perhaps she was aware of the difference because she was actually a human, but still willing to throw a shag his way?

[DarkRaichu]

19 hours ago, arc said:

The animals all being robots brings up another issue: how is meat served to the guests? People had to slaughter cows pretty close to when they wanted to eat back then, what with no refrigeration. Do host chefs have a mental blind spot for delivery of meat cuts? Do robot cows have edible meat on them?

They can't just be hosts slaughtering and serving real cows because the pilot made such a big deal about hosts not harming any genuinely living thing.

(Which BTW seems silly; it breaks immersion like crazy that hosts don't even swat at flies...)

This is one of those things that looks real, but not real enough.  I believe there is an actual modern kitchen behind the scene that prepare meals for guests using high quality meat and ingredients (from outside the park), although final presentation may look like meals from the 1800.  Otherwise, authentic food from that era would taste bad and hard to chew / digest for modern people.  I would not pay $40,000 to get in and be served inedible food :D

Kind of like if you go to Renaissance Fair and buy a turkey leg there.  There is no way turkey legs in the medieval time could be as big and as juicy as what you buy at the fair.

[DarkRaichu]

BTW, I like how the infection on Meave caused the outbreak of flies in the park.  As we saw in episode 1, the flies caused the host breakdown because the host had the urge to swat the flies but did not have the necessary programming to do so.  

Now here is the theory, what if Anthony Hopkins did not intend for the upgrades to be discovered yet, ie. the flies infestation just broke his timeline.  He might have intended for gradual upgrades to grant his creations full self-awareness in a controlled environment.  The flies basically made the environment "dirty".

Also other theories:

- I think Bernard was Anthony Hopkins's masterpiece.  Maybe 15-25 years ago he needed someone he could trust to run the day to day operation and decided to create Bernard without anyone knowing.  Since Bernard was never wiped at the end of the day like other hosts, he became more human with every passing day.  Remember the programming of the host allows for self learning.

- I think MIB is Quality Analyst / QA / tester for the programming of the park.  In IT it is common to have someone or a team of people to test a program / app / tool to the limit.  MIB behaviors have been extreme as to test the limitation of the park.  Also, he knew exactly what to do (ie number of bullets, reactions of hosts, etc) as if he had knowledge of the scripts.  QA are often provided with list of steps to follow to reach certain parts (ie. levels) of a program (ie. Westworld game) in order to test those parts.

[NutMeg]

25 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

BTW, I like how the infection on Meave caused the outbreak of flies in the park.  As we saw in episode 1, the flies caused the host breakdown because the host had the urge to swat the flies but did not have the necessary programming to do so.  

Now here is the theory, what if Anthony Hopkins did not intend for the upgrades to be discovered yet, ie. the flies infestation just broke his timeline.  He might have intended for gradual upgrades to grant his creations full self-awareness in a controlled environment.  The flies basically made the environment "dirty".

Also other theories:

- I think Bernard was Anthony Hopkins's masterpiece.  Maybe 15-25 years ago he needed someone he could trust to run the day to day operation and decided to create Bernard without anyone knowing.  Since Bernard was never wiped at the end of the day like other hosts, he became more human with every passing day.  Remember the programming of the host allows for self learning.

- I think MIB is Quality Analyst / QA / tester for the programming of the park.  In IT it is common to have someone or a team of people to test a program / app / tool to the limit.  MIB behaviors have been extreme as to test the limitation of the park.  Also, he knew exactly what to do (ie number of bullets, reactions of hosts, etc) as if he had knowledge of the scripts.  QA are often provided with list of steps to follow to reach certain parts (ie. levels) of a program (ie. Westworld game) in order to test those parts.

Intriguing theory...

[benteen]

I thought this episode was excellent.  I'm really enjoying this show so far.

William and Logan seem to be taken from the Richard Benjamin and James Brolin characters from the original movie.  Although the Brolin character wouldn't have put a knife through one of the host's hands.

[arc]

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also - the changing room host is apparently aware that, at the very least, she may be an android? But the ones in the part aren't aware of that? So some do have self awareness and some don't? How does that work?

Makes sense to me. The welcome area hosts are there to, well, welcome the guests. Guests and hosts there know the guests are heading in to Westworld. So the outside hosts should know what Westworld is and what hosts are, as part of their job/function. The inside hosts shouldn't, because that would defeat their function.

[izabella]

Too much gore for me, though the premise was interesting at first.  I didn't realize this robotic theme park fantasy island holodeck would be all about violence and death and gore and rape, which makes the dawning independent thinking and behavior of the robots less appealing to me.  I might give it a few more episodes to see if it does more with the premise than indulge in creative ways to show sexual violence and killing.

[Maximum Taco]

21 hours ago, scrb said:

Do you guys think there would be Yelp or some other kinds of ratings on individual hosts?

Or different attractions within WW?

For sure, there would be complaints about the food and liquor quality.

I don't think there are any ratings for the use of guests. Remember ChangeRoomSexBot's words "No orientation, no guidebook, figuring out how it works is half the fun." It seems like the creators are not interested in putting out walkthroughs for the interactions, they want you to just play, and not know how to game the system (unless you're a long time repeat customer.) This does make sense, as a completionist gamer I know I'd always be thinking about what would've happened if I had played out an encounter differently, and if I could afford it I might keep coming back to do something a different way the next time. Limiting knowledge increases replay-ability.

I do think however there is a internal rating system the park uses. For instance when guests stopped responding to Maeve's advances her programming was adjusted, and when that didn't work she was scheduled for decommissioning. Pretty much if you're a host whose job is to provide a hook and you don't get any bites, you're going to end up in one of the endless sub-basements. I wonder if on some level the hosts know this. In the case of the Eyepatch, the treasure hunter, White Hat barely does anything to help him, and yet he still pursues him to try and get him to go on his treasure hunt, does Eyepatch know on some level that he could be put out to pasture if he doesn't get someone to go on his hunt?

Edited October 11, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[izabella]

24 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I wonder if on some level the hosts know this. In the case of the Eyepatch, the treasure hunter, White Hat barely does anything to help him, and yet he still pursues him to try and get him to go on his treasure hunt, does Eyepatch know on some level that he could be put out to pasture if he doesn't get someone to go on his hunt?

Even if he knew, he wouldn't care since he's a computerized mechanical robot.  Your car doesn't really care whether you are about to trade it in and get a new one.

If he were one of the robots that is starting to think and feel independently, he might care, but he might also be happy not to have to get knocked to the ground or get his hand stabbed or worse every day.  Maeve might be happy to not have more crappy rapes and murders to "remember" every day, for example.

[Maximum Taco]

20 minutes ago, izabella said:

Even if he knew, he wouldn't care since he's a computerized mechanical robot.  Your car doesn't really care whether you are about to trade it in and get a new one.

If he were one of the robots that is starting to think and feel independently, he might care, but he might also be happy not to have to get knocked to the ground or get his hand stabbed or worse every day.  Maeve might be happy to not have more crappy rapes and murders to "remember" every day, for example.

All of the hosts feel and think. They aren't acting when they cry out in pain or beg you not to shoot their wife in the head, they feel those things. They don't all just go along with what the guests want either. Teddy doesn't submit meekly to the Man in Black, he fights him with everything he has, as does the posse in this episode. They are physically incapable of hurting the guests, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying to.

It is true that they are told what to feel and think by the programmers but just because someone is telling them what to feel and think doesn't mean they feel or think it any less. In the first episode Dolores goes to get help for her ailing father from the Doctor. His sickness was a glitch, it's not a programmed event, she FELT worried, and she THOUGHT it was a good idea to seek medical attention. And this is before she starts exhibiting any symptoms of the "infection."

The infection isn't causing the robots to feel and think, they've been feeling and thinking this whole time. The change is that they are remembering what they shouldn't, and they are violating their prime tenet (or First Law if you prefer) not to be able to harm living things.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[DarkRaichu]

41 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I do think however there is a internal rating system the park uses. For instance when guests stopped responding to Maeve's advances her programming was adjusted, and when that didn't work she was scheduled for decommissioning. Pretty much if you're a host whose job is to provide a hook and you don't get any bites, you're going to end up in one of the endless sub-basements. I wonder if on some level the hosts know this. In the case of the Eyepatch, the treasure hunter, White Hat barely does anything to help him, and yet he still pursues him to try and get him to go on his treasure hunt, does Eyepatch know on some level that he could be put out to pasture if he doesn't get someone to go on his hunt?

So why was Maeve scheduled for decommissioning?  Was it because she was an older model? The other hosts were re-purposed (ie. Delores' new dad), why not her?  The "Madame" programming was not unique to her since the other girl could take over as madame when she was frozen.  So why not simply reprogram her to be town lady #3 (for example)?

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

So why was Maeve scheduled for decommissioning?  Was it because she was an older model? The other hosts were re-purposed (ie. Delores' new dad), why not her?  The "Madame" programming was not unique to her since the other girl could take over as madame when she was frozen.  So why not simply reprogram her to be town lady #3 (for example)?

It had to do with the new storyline.

Sizemore wanted to "clear out the dead weight" so he probably asked for any hosts that were performing poorly to be decommissioned rather then re-purposed. Remember earlier he wanted 50 new bodies in the park but Cullen would only give him 20? Maybe he could massage those numbers if he can convince people to remove a few more "malfunctioning" units.

Maeve could've been reprogramed into town lady #3, but Sizemore wanted a horde of braves.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[izabella]

7 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

All of the hosts feel and think. They aren't acting when they cry out in pain or beg you not to shoot their wife in the head, they feel those things. They don't all just go along with what the guests want either. Teddy doesn't submit meekly to the Man in Black, he fights him with everything he has, as does the posse in this episode. They are physically incapable of hurting the guests, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying to.

It is true that they are told what to feel and think by the programmers but just because someone is telling them what to feel and think doesn't mean they feel or think it any less. In the first episode Dolores goes to get help for her ailing father from the Doctor. His sickness was a glitch, it's not a programmed event, she FELT worried, and she THOUGHT it was a good idea to seek medical attention. And this is before she starts exhibiting any symptoms of the "infection."

The infection isn't causing the robots to feel and think, they've been feeling and thinking this whole time. The change is that they are remembering what they shouldn't, and they are violating their prime tenet (or First Law if you prefer) not to be able to harm living things.

They aren't feeling and thinking independently, though, unless they are infected.  They're programming allows for them to "know" when to feel pain or to react in a certain way when something isn't right.  Dolores would not have known if her daddy robot was programmed to be "sick" but she reacted to him being sick the way she was programmed to do when someone is sick, such as by worrying and getting help.  We also witness the robots coming out of their human mode and into robot mode at a command from the control center people, even when in the midst of crying or whatnot. 

That's different from actually feeling something- hence, Dolores swatting the fly when she started having independent thought.  She would not have swatted the fly before, despite it being annoying and crawling on her because she didn't actually feel flies and wasn't programmed to feel them.

[marcee]

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

They aren't feeling and thinking independently, though, unless they are infected.  They're programming allows for them to "know" when to feel pain or to react in a certain way when something isn't right.  Dolores would not have known if her daddy robot was programmed to be "sick" but she reacted to him being sick the way she was programmed to do when someone is sick, such as by worrying and getting help.  We also witness the robots coming out of their human mode and into robot mode at a command from the control center people, even when in the midst of crying or whatnot. 

That's different from actually feeling something- hence, Dolores swatting the fly when she started having independent thought.  She would not have swatted the fly before, despite it being annoying and crawling on her because she didn't actually feel flies and wasn't programmed to feel them.

Disagree. They feel the flies, they're just not allowed via programming to hurt any living thing. In fact, the show tells us specifically when they're diagnosing Maeve that she's "feeling physical discomfort" and that she should be checked before going back into service. She was having stomach pain. She was diagnosed with stomach pain. They found MRSA. So yeah, they're programmed to be able to feel pain. Why? So they can react and appear more "real".

[Maximum Taco]

6 minutes ago, izabella said:

They aren't feeling and thinking independently, though, unless they are infected.  They're programming allows for them to "know" when to feel pain or to react in a certain way when something isn't right.  Dolores would not have known if her daddy robot was programmed to be "sick" but she reacted to him being sick the way she was programmed to do when someone is sick, such as by worrying and getting help.  We also witness the robots coming out of their human mode and into robot mode at a command from the control center people, even when in the midst of crying or whatnot. 

That's different from actually feeling something- hence, Dolores swatting the fly when she started having independent thought.  She would not have swatted the fly before, despite it being annoying and crawling on her because she didn't actually feel flies and wasn't programmed to feel them.

Does that matter?

Just because the programmers are telling them what they think and what they feel, it doesn't make it any less "real" for them. To Dolores (in that moment) her father is sick, her boyfriend is dead. To Teddy his girl is about to get raped. To Maeve, her stomach hurts. 

So if they know, on any level, that a poor performance doing their "job" will result in their "death" would they not be just as afraid as you or I are of death? They are programmed to fear death after all, if they weren't they wouldn't beg for their lives.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Maximum Taco