Sex And The City - General Discussion

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Didn't Charlotte also spend time with some old sorority sisters or some such, and conclude they were too uptight? It ended with Samantha and Charlotte reconciling their differences in a lovely scene. 

[Melancholy]

I just rewatched that ep! Charlotte was really in the wrong on that fight. Out of nowhere, she attacked Samantha for just having no-strings consensual sex and discussing it. It was entirely Charlotte taking her marital unhappiness out on Sam. I used to think Samantha was then bitchy to retract her Samba invitation from Miranda and Carrie for refusing to get involved but on rewatch, I see her point. She was clearly in the right and she should have been supported. 

It seems like Charlotte and Trey didn't try oral sex nearly as much they should have. If Trey can't get it up, that's no excuse on why Charlotte should lay there sexually frustrated, embarrassed and guilty about even taking care of herself. He should try eating her. And just because Trey couldn't get it up for intercourse, that doesn't convince me that he couldn't come from a blow job. That's much easier, performance wise. That could have eased them into a sexual relationship sooner, maybe without separating. 

Sam is great. 

Samantha: Hey, Trey almost got it up. You almost masturbated. Together, the two of you almost had sex. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Melancholy

[izabella]

With Charlotte, Miranda and Samantha, there are a lot of things I like about them, and a few things I don't.  With Carrie, it's the opposite.  After all these years, I find it hard to recall something likeable about Carrie.

[Melancholy]

On 7/24/2017 at 6:53 PM, izabella said:

With Charlotte, Miranda and Samantha, there are a lot of things I like about them, and a few things I don't.  With Carrie, it's the opposite.  After all these years, I find it hard to recall something likeable about Carrie.

Yup. It's interesting that it worked out this way. Because I feel like Carrie's friends were written to be more abrasive and hard to like than Carrie because they're such strict sharply drawn examples of a Type of Woman. The Ball-Busting Career Woman, the Slutty Vamp, and the Old Fashioned Princess Wife are the female cliches that attract hate from different corners. Carrie, by deliberate comparison, does't suffer from that Type prejudice. She defies category. However, Carrie is SO much less likable than her three girlfriends. I like Carrie's friends A LOT (Miranda/Sam/Charlotte but also Stanford). I don't like Carrie. 

I feel like it's because Miranda/Samantha/Charlotte were originally designed in the sharp Type role but a lot of their stories revolved around showing that they were more complex than their Type. And that's endearing- their stories are about them transcending and being better/more complex than the cliche they were stuck with. Carrie didn't have that plot raison de'etre but she was the lead. So, most of her stories came from being in lead-y melodrama. It was far less endearing because Carrie didn't really represent a type of woman or have a recognizable POV that she could honestly and fully own and then transcend. Over time, we'd see that Carrie's actions were that she wanted to be a childless trophy wife pet of a rich man without being expected to bear children. But she wouldn't go out there and defend a controversial POV at the lunch table- as her friends did. Not the least of which, Charlotte who was frequently under attack because her values were old fashioned but she'd sincerely defend them through ridicule. But Carrie was a question mark- "I couldn't help but wonder..." And without a distinct POV representing a type of woman, Carrie earned her stripes as a lead by having dumpster-fire melodrama. 

Still, I think this show is underrated on rewatch. This and Curb Your Enthusiasm are HBO's best comedies. Curb Your Enthusiasm is funnier than SATC- but I think SATC has the grander legacy and does more than just spit out hilarious jokes and plots.  Future HBO comedies tried to mimic SATC's ability to tell human stories about friendships and love among a hip zeitgesty crowd in sitcom form. Girls, Entourage, Silicon Valley, Insecure, Divorce- SATC remains the best by far even though it was also the pioneer. I've enjoyed re-watching SATC eps than first time watching Girls, Silicon Valley, Insecure eps. The stupid movies helped to tarnish the legacy of the series but critics also undervalued it.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Melancholy

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 7/25/2017 at 8:06 PM, Melancholy said:

Yup. It's interesting that it worked out this way. Because I feel like Carrie's friends were written to be more abrasive and hard to like than Carrie because they're such strict sharply drawn examples of a Type of Woman. The Ball-Busting Career Woman, the Slutty Vamp, and the Old Fashioned Princess Wife are the female cliches that attract hate from different corners. Carrie, by deliberate comparison, does't suffer from that Type prejudice. She defies category. However, Carrie is SO much less likable than her three girlfriends. I like Carrie's friends A LOT (Miranda/Sam/Charlotte but also Stanford). I don't like Carrie. 

I agree with this assessment!  If I were a single gal in NYC, my first pick for a friend would be Samantha......but now I feel bad as Charlotte would be super sweet and funny to hang out with while Miranda would be a blunt and funny friend, too!!  Carrie?  No.  She would either not show up, ditch me (both due to a guy) or spend the whole afternoon talking about HER guy and some tiny thing, like farting, the whole time.  It would be all about her, the whole time.  I would LOVE to hang out with Anthony for a lifetime!!!!  I have a friend from high school who I love dearly and he is not quite as blunt as Anthony and is not Italian but man....they sound alike at times!!

[Mu Shu]

On 6/13/2017 at 4:05 PM, WendyCR72 said:

I'm in the minority but that's okay. I liked Miranda and Steve together, and the opposites attracting deal. I'll concede I liked Steve more as originally envisioned (reading Hemingway, the Blue Moon scene) and agree he could be trying by the end.

But I think Miranda could be just as imperfect, and their troubles weren't all on Steve. Shrug.

I thought Robert was fine on paper, but he seemed to be a void of blahness, to me on screen, better looks/career or not. But, again, I realize I'm in the minority!

Nah, I'm a Steve fan too.   Unlike perennial children Carrie and to an extent Samantha, Miranda gave up unrealistic expectations that hadn't been working for her and married an imperfect man (who I recall always being employed) and bought a house in Brooklyn they could afford and which had room for their family.  

Carrie was always chasing the high life and casting off good mates in the process.     Samantha really wasn't into marriage, but her life started to ring hollow.

miranda didn't win the Manhattan penthouse or younger actor boyfriend, but she won at life.  

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

Nah, I'm a Steve fan too.   Unlike perennial children Carrie and to an extent Samantha, Miranda gave up unrealistic expectations that hadn't been working for her and married an imperfect man (who I recall always being employed) and bought a house in Brooklyn they could afford and which had room for their family.  

Carrie was always chasing the high life and casting off good mates in the process.     Samantha really wasn't into marriage, but her life started to ring hollow.

miranda didn't win the Manhattan penthouse or younger actor boyfriend, but she won at life.  

This really happened to everyone except Carrie. Even Samantha. Miranda, Charlotte and Samantha grew and changed, and realized what they really wanted and learned a few things along the way. Charlotte broke up with a man because he pick the wrong china pattern and held on to what she thought she wanted until she got it. Charlotte changed and was willing to change herself for Harry. She really came a long way. So did Miranda who as you pointed out also had unrealistic expectations but those changed. Miranda changed and grew from becoming a mother and marrying Steve. I still love when Miranda explains why she wanted to marry Steve. She was the last person you'd expect to have a wedding and more likely to go to the courthouse between lunch (not that there's anything wrong with that). Samantha learned she could be in a relationship, and although I hate that she broke up with Smith in the movie after they had been together for so long and been through so much. Samantha ended up learning what she really wanted. That I can respect. 

But Carrie? Yes, a perennial child. She wants her way all the time or she stomps like a child. She was in three serious relationships and learned nothing from them. She made so many mistakes and never learned from it. How much nicer would it have been if Carrie learned from her mistakes and changed? That would have made her more like able. Instead she learns nothing and remains a spoiled child who never once thinks that anything is her fault.  

Edited August 5, 2017 by andromeda331

[Melancholy]

In Time and Punishment, Carrie is particularly infuriating. Certainly the OTT "YOU HAVE TO FORGIVE ME!" and her insistence on keeping Big a part of her life even though nothing truly bonds them other than romance. But also, her "I'm doing so much better now! No cheating! Patch me up! Now, that I'm not cheating, I'm practically perfect. Right?! RIGHT?!" Jeez, that should have been a red flag right there for Aiden. The woman has no perspective on her character and its flaws and she can't feel true remorse. 

Actually, I don't have a problem with Carrie asking Aiden to take care of Miranda. Carrie had an imminent meeting with her editor that she couldn't think she could cancel and Miranda didn't say anything about being naked on the phone call. I see why Carrie thought "no harm, no foul" if Aiden looks after Miranda. But it was awful of Carrie to saunter into Miranda's apartment after only one comment about Miranda's braced up neck in a hurry to talk about Aiden. And to bring bagels without cream cheese. So Carrie earned the "Bullshit bagels" speech and it was epic. Carrie continued being crappy in that scene when Miranda responded to Carrie's whole "Aiden's cheating on me because I cheated on him" with a very reasonable and correct "Just because you cheated doesn't mean that Aiden will cheat." Carrie threatening to burn Miranda's bagel for saying that (even if jokingly) is just more of Carrie being unable to handle anything but flattery and yes-man comments from her friends. 

Meanwhile, Charlotte is flawed but I can still find her likable. It was unfair of Charlotte to zero in on Miranda and call her up to yell at her for being judgmental about Charlotte quitting work. Miranda only gave up a "Trey suggested?" comment but she was otherwise silent. Carrie was far snarkier with her whole, "Raising money to cure aids is all good but if I saw you glazing a bowl at Pottery Barn, I'd just keep up walking." Even Samantha got more critical with "Beware getting off the ferris wheel because the 20-something replacements are perky and ruthless." However, I still get the feeling that Charlotte called Miranda because Charlotte truly respects Miranda as the friend with the most intellectually demanding job, the authentic feminist, the wise one about how to take care of yourself. And that's why Charlotte was unfairly caterwauling at Miranda about the women's movement at 8:15 in the morning and then, when Miranda tried hanging up, Kristin Davis was rather needy and vulnerable in her "No, don't hang up. I'm quitting this week and I really need you get behind my choice." See, that's how a character can be ostensibly wrong but I still find her sympathetic and cute. 

And after Miranda was pushed by Charlotte repeatedly screaming at her about "I choose my choice", Miranda had another epic line responding to her friends' nonsense:

Charlotte: I'm quitting my job to make my life better and do something worthwhile like have a baby and cure AIDS!

Miranda: Oh! You're going to cure AIDS? Good for you, Charlotte. Just don't be too disappointed if all you wind up with is a pretty ceramic mug with Trey's name on it. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Melancholy

[bethster2000]

On 8/3/2017 at 9:31 AM, Mrs. Hanson said:

my first pick for a friend would be Samantha......

All that I needed to know about Sam as a friend is when Carrie confides in her that she and Big are fucking again.  "Not my style."  I love that.

[Mrs. Hanson]

16 hours ago, bethster2000 said:

All that I needed to know about Sam as a friend is when Carrie confides in her that she and Big are fucking again.  "Not my style."  I love that.

And when Samantha told the pregnant girl to screw off and left the bridal shower when she took the the name Shayla.  Sam is not maternal, does not like kids but you have just f#cked with her friend's baby name...We are outta here!!!

On 8/10/2017 at 7:41 PM, Melancholy said:

Actually, I don't have a problem with Carrie asking Aiden to take care of Miranda. Carrie had an imminent meeting with her editor that she couldn't think she could cancel and Miranda didn't say anything about being naked on the phone call. I see why Carrie thought "no harm, no foul" if Aiden looks after Miranda. But it was awful of Carrie to saunter into Miranda's apartment after only one comment about Miranda's braced up neck in a hurry to talk about Aiden.

I agree!  If I were heading into an IEP that I arranged, planned for and was leading, I would call my then stay at home fiance to see if he could go and help.  Not that his schedule is less important, he had more flexibility.  (Hey it came in handy when I needed to replace the engine in my car!)

Edited August 13, 2017 by Mrs. Hanson

[Melancholy]

Watching Belle of the Balls. This exchange really highlights how I see the girls:

Samantha: Emotional is just code for "I don't want to hire a woman."

Miranda: Exactly! They're that way at my firm too. Men think you're going to cry over a legal brief.

Carrie: Well have you cried over a legal brief?

Miranda: Certainly, but only in the privacy of my own office.

Charlotte: I cried once at the gallery. Once in 10 years and from that point on, it was "Don't make Charlotte cry."

Samantha: I have never cried at work.

Carrie: I fake cried to my editor once when I missed a deadline. I told him I was having a bad time at home but really, I was having a good time in the Hamptons. 

Miranda: But that makes the rest of us look bad!

Carrie: Aw boo hoo. It was 80 degrees and sunny. 

[themoon411]

So, I actually see Carrie as having all the bad traits of her friends, but pretending she doesn't, while pretending to have the good traits of her friends, when she in fact does not.

Let me elaborate:

Charlotte has the good trait of being into high culture ( art, theater), while having the bad trait of wanting a man to take care of her. Carrie claims to be this independent woman, while she actually also wants someone to take care of her. At the same time she pretends to be into high culture, but after getting bored in Paris within two weeks ( and really when do we ever see her in a muesem when Charlotte's not around), we know this is not true.

Samantha has the good trait of being non judgemental and the bad trait of being selfish in relationships. Carrie claims to be non judgemental, but she judges Samantha all the time. And I don't just mean the infamous blow job episode. It seems every time Samantha says something x rated, Carrie looks uncomfortable. Also, even though Carrie pretends she's all about compromise in relationships, anytime she's not getting her way for 5 minutes, she goes crazy.

Miranda has the good trait of being able to entertain herself without a man ( training for marathon, watching tv, reading books), while being super critical to her significant others. Carrie often pretends she has enjoys her single woman pursuits, but most of them involve parting or shopping, both activities which are directly connected to catching a man. Shopping is connected because she needs cute clothes for potential dates. A the same time she pretends to be super supportive in relationships, but it's honestly only when she believes she can get cool points. She says some pretty harsh words to both big, aidan, and burger, words that were undeserved imo!

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

So, I read an old post in the movie thread that intimated that Carrie had the meatiest storylines during the show, which stopped it from being a true ensemble. Whether it's an ensemble or not, I disagree Carrie had the best stories. She remained the same static character throughout the whole series, while the others had both positive and negative arcs that forced them to grow as people. 

 

Charlotte:

+ got married 

+ adopted a baby

+ quit her gallery job (not what I'd call a positive, but it's what she wanted, and it was scary, and she did it anyway)

- got divorced 

- went through infertility/miscarriage 

- was turned down for her initial adoption 

Charlotte was also a dog owner twice in the series. Contrast how badly she does with Henry in S1 vs how well she's suited to caring for Elizabeth Taylor and her puppies in S6. 

 

Samantha:

+ bought her apartment in a hot neighborhood 

+ fell in love 

+ dumped Richard (sad for her, but definitely a huge self-esteem boost from what an insecure mess she was in S1)

- went through cancer 

- cheated on Smith 

- had her sexuality used against her 

 

Miranda:

+ bought her own home 

+ made partner at her law firm 

+ got married 

+ had a kid

- went through the trauma of losing her mom 

I can't think of any comparable storylines for Carrie that forced her to grow up. She became a homeowner more through the efforts of Aiden and Charlotte than any perspicacity on her part. She cheated with Big, but didn't really contemplate how Aiden and Natasha were hurt by her actions. She went from columnist to author through other people's machinations. Life just sort of happened to Carrie, and she never had to grow or introspect the way the other women did, to the end that they were much more interesting characters by the end than the show's lead. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Life just sort of happened to Carrie, and she never had to grow or introspect the way the other women did, to the end that they were much more interesting characters by the end than the show's lead. 

In fairness, by the end of the second movie, Samantha was largely a sex cartoon who lost a major potential account because she couldn't be bothered to respect the customs of the country she was in due to the fact that a penis was present.    

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Oh, for sure, I'm talking solely in terms of the series. By the second movie only Miranda had any dignity left to her character. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Oh, for sure, I'm talking solely in terms of the series. By the second movie only Miranda had any dignity left to her character. 

Very true. 

Quote

+ quit her gallery job (not what I'd call a positive, but it's what she wanted, and it was scary, and she did it anyway)

I never considered this a growth moment for Charlotte, only because it made no sense and it was completely stupid.  From what I remember, Charlotte had no real justification for any of it.  Though I was surprised that Charlotte's position was filled by someone who was supposed to be right out of college.  I would think you would have to have at least some experience to be able to run a gallery.        

[Melancholy]

This doesn't get brought up or tested but isn't it an enormous betrayal of trust for Carrie to tell Aiden that Miranda is pregnant and planning on getting an abortion after Miranda asked for secrecy???? It would be a betrayal of trust even if Aiden wasn't close with Steve, but it especially bad because of that. What particularly kills me is that, for this episode, Carrie feigns that she just CANNOT keep secrets from Aiden. But then, most of their relationship features Carrie being disingenuous/dishonest with Aiden. 

On rewatch, Trey was being a good husband once he got over his bed/sex issues. Charlotte was the pushy one for flipping out at everyone because she wanted a baby immediately. I still have sympathy for Charlotte though. They just weren't right for each other and Trey was pretty damaged by his mother. But no one was a bad guy here. 

[Quof]

I once got pissed off at a friend for telling her husband something I had told her in confidence.   She responded "I don't have secrets from Chris." I said (loudly) "Well I have secrets from Chris."

What the Hell?   

[Melancholy]

Carrie is a horrible friend in that ep. She's in a rush to be all "You didn't use a condom" judgey right when Miranda breaks the news. I love how Miranda and Charlotte are both in crisis in that ep and Carrie is mainly focused on how people think about her decades-old choice to abort. Samantha is trying to make Miranda feel less alone and guilty so Sam is all, "We've all been there. I've had 2 abortions. How many for you, Carrie?" Then, Carrie has to say "Um, ONE!" in the most scandalized tone that Samantha would indicate she had more abortions than she had. And when the sperm donor is described as a TGIF waiter, Carrie jumps in with "Don't make this sound worse than it was. He was a waiter at the Saloon which was very happening back then." I think it's Friendship 101 to put away the slutshaming bullshit when you're trying to be a friend to someone in Miranda's position. Charlotte may have been more strident but a) she was going through big pain and speaking out of that pain and b) I can better understand Charlotte's lack of tact coming from a place "you've seen how hard it is to conceive and you're going to throw this chance for a baby away?" which Miranda ultimately agreed with compared to Carrie's anxiety over whether she retroactively seems classy. 

I also think this is part of destroying the few endearing parts of Carrie. She lost her spontaneous, fun side who could mix it up with the waiters and caterers of the world and became increasingly obsessed with her status and judgmental of Stanford and Samantha. 

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 8/23/2017 at 3:50 PM, Melancholy said:

This doesn't get brought up or tested but isn't it an enormous betrayal of trust for Carrie to tell Aiden that Miranda is pregnant and planning on getting an abortion after Miranda asked for secrecy???? It would be a betrayal of trust even if Aiden wasn't close with Steve, but it especially bad because of that. What particularly kills me is that, for this episode, Carrie feigns that she just CANNOT keep secrets from Aiden. But then, most of their relationship features Carrie being disingenuous/dishonest with Aiden. 

On rewatch, Trey was being a good husband once he got over his bed/sex issues. Charlotte was the pushy one for flipping out at everyone because she wanted a baby immediately. I still have sympathy for Charlotte though. They just weren't right for each other and Trey was pretty damaged by his mother. But no one was a bad guy here. 

Yep - I don't like that part where Carrie blabs Miranda's business to Aiden.  Not his place, not his nothing.  Miranda's issue is NOT a conversation starter for Carrie.  Go find your own life to discuss.  That was a HUGE betrayal.  

Edited to add:  Her being dishonest with Aiden was NOT just "Oh I lost a gift you gave me" or "Oops I bounced a check" but, oh I don't know...."I AM SLEEPING WITH BIG."  Douche.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Mrs. Hanson

[Melancholy]

19 hours ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

Yep - I don't like that part where Carrie blabs Miranda's business to Aiden.  Not his place, not his nothing.  Miranda's issue is NOT a conversation starter for Carrie.  Go find your own life to discuss.  That was a HUGE betrayal.  

Edited to add:  Her being dishonest with Aiden was NOT just "Oh I lost a gift you gave me" or "Oops I bounced a check" but, oh I don't know...."I AM SLEEPING WITH BIG."  Douche.

And accepting a ring and proposal when she wasn't wild about marrying him. And throwing out "close to my heart" bullshit about her not wearing his ring on her finger. And smoking secretly because he had an ultimatum against dating smokers. And in this conversation, finding it easy to talk about Miranda's planned abortion even as she's lying about her own past abortion. (Although, Carrie voluntarily came clean on that last one.) But when it comes to the information that Miranda gives her in confidence, Carrie has a burning need to tell Aiden. 

It's interesting that we all agreed that it's obviously a huge betrayal but the TV show didn't even really touch that. Miranda got stroppy but it was about Carrie trying to guilt Miranda into telling Steve. Conflict between Miranda and her friends was in the storytelling stew in this ep but not on this issue of Miranda's confidences. 

[PepSinger]

On 7/5/2017 at 1:36 PM, Melancholy said:

Then, Carrie manages to be so boring and spectacularly self-involved that she even manages to irritate her loyal, devoted, even Carrie-obsessed friends with the Big talk. When they suggest therapy (not a bad move for a woman who threw a burger against a refrigerator in a tantrum because her guy wasn't being bamboozled into marriage because he had to relocate for work), Carrie had to ignorantly bash psychology like she's living in Mad Men-era NYC instead of the late 90s NYC  and then bitchily say to Miranda "I mean, I get why *you* need therapy because you're all in your head."

The fact that Miranda didn't slap the taste out of Carrie's mouth when she said that proves she is the most forgiving person on the show. Seriously. If a friend said that to me, the friendship would be over.

[BBHN]

There really are points in the show, especially as it went on, and more towards the end, where I honestly thought Carrie didn't deserve to have any of these women as friends.

[Melancholy]

UO: I like that Carrie isn't conventionally gorgeous. I do think she can look very sexy and I'd call her attractive even though she can look ugly in the wrong angles and styling. But even more, I think she'd be insufferable if she looked like Charlotte or Samantha. Part of what made Carrie endearing in the early seasons and always interesting is that she wants the life of the It Girl even though she's not primed by looks, breeding, or money to get it. She's the underdog. She does have to forcibly create confidence and relentlessly put herself out there with jokes and sex to have the attention she craves. 

[JAYJAY1979]

8 hours ago, Melancholy said:

UO: I like that Carrie isn't conventionally gorgeous. I do think she can look very sexy and I'd call her attractive even though she can look ugly in the wrong angles and styling. But even more, I think she'd be insufferable if she looked like Charlotte or Samantha. Part of what made Carrie endearing in the early seasons and always interesting is that she wants the life of the It Girl even though she's not primed by looks, breeding, or money to get it. She's the underdog. She does have to forcibly create confidence and relentlessly put herself out there with jokes and sex to have the attention she craves. 

I liked that she was self deprecating and clueless about sex and relationships in the first 2 or 3 seasons.  I grew to hate the later seasons when everyone that met Carrie thought she was fabulous and so wonderful....when in reality, she just wrote a column in a newspaper.  Hence why I liked Candace Bergin as Enid who brought miss Carrie down to reality when she started at Vogue 

[Melancholy]

Another instance where Carrie is the worst. In Anchors Away, Carrie is all "People make mistakes, I cheated on Aiden and he gave me a second chance" modulating voice of forgiveness when Sam is unleashing her fury at Richard. But then in the next ep when Sam announces that she's taking Richard back, Carrie joins Miranda and Charlotte in OTT fiercely knocking on Sam's choice to forgive. And Carrie takes it over the line from criticizing Richard and this specific choice (what Charlotte and Miranda were doing) to bashing Samantha as a person:

Carrie: How about this for a column, "Desperate Women Who'll Believe Anything."

Just awful. I would understand Carrie feeling like she doesn't have the credibility to advise, given her past or now believing in second chances because she understands making that kind of mistake. I would get Carrie, acknowledging her own history but still thinking her friend Samantha should aim for better than taking back a cheater. Those are all acceptable. But instead, Carrie flip flopped just to disagree with Samantha. First, it was Carrie's tendency (especially in the later seasons) to self consciously and priggishly play the superior restrained lady to Samantha's brash anger or wild sexuality. Then, Carrie wanted to be part of the moral outrage chorus because Miranda and Charlotte were doing it. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Melancholy

[Melancholy]

A SATC writer defends Carrie in Ring a Ding to CNBC  

Ugh. If only everything could be handwaved away like this. Why assess the merit of anyone's choices unless its proven that it ended in nuclear holocaust? Because past that, we're all still here and the best can be assumed? Anyway, it was an article that missed the main issues:

1) Does a friend have an obligation to give their financially irresponsible friend thousands of dollars to spare them from moving to a less desirable apartment because they spent beyond their means on restaurants, cabs, and especially designer clothes? Is not ponying up thousands being a bad friend? 

2) If the friend does have an obligation to subsidize their friend's financial irresponsiblity merely because they can afford to, is the financially irresponsible friend justified in going to their friend's apartment to scream at them for not ponying up and to shame them for dealing with their recently broken marriage by still wearing the wedding ring in their home? 

If you're not answering those questions, you're not providing an intelligent discussion of the ep. Not answering those questions, renders your comments worthless because it's most of why the ep is so hated/controversial  

There's also a crucial inaccuracy to say that Carrie turned to her friends, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte without mentioning that Miranda and Samantha were offering the money. 

As I've said before, I don't think Carrie paid Charlotte back. I can agree that there's no right answer there but actually, I have less respect for the Voice of the Author than I would have because at least this woman doesn't even get there was an issue with Carrie disrespecting Charlotte horribly which makes it less likely to assume the best that she paid the loan. 

[Inquisitionist]

Quote

Harris isn't surprised to hear the response has been passionate. "People are funny about money," she says.

OMG, the cluelessness just drips  off the page.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

On 7/5/2017 at 4:51 PM, psychoticstate said:

Ugh, stalking Big's mother may have been the worst.  Drunk dialing is one thing in your twenties but she was supposed to be in her thirties at the time.  Really embarrassing.  And why would Big want to be with someone like that and someone who seemed to have no ambition other than shoes?  

I never thought about Carrie having some of Charlotte's ambitions but it does make sense.  Either that or the relationship with Big was co-dependent on Carrie's end.  She didn't necessarily want the living together/marriage thing but she didn't want him to have that with anyone else. 

I was quasi-watching some episodes yesterday while I was doing other things.  The Post-It episode was on and I really hate how Carrie turned Charlotte's big news about her engagement to Harry into a night out for her because Berger broke up with her via Post It.  Yeah, that sucks but Carrie should have kept her mouth shut and let Charlotte enjoy breaking the news of her engagement.  It shows how horribly self-centered Carrie could be.  She could be a good friend as well (as she did later in the episode by encouraging Charlotte to enjoy all the pre-wedding things, even though it was her second marriage) but so much of the time I felt she was lacking in the friend department (while Charlotte, Miranda and Samantha exhibited more true friendship and less selfishness.) 

The post-it episode really pissed me off.  I hated how she rained on Charlotte's parade about her engagement by slapping the post-it on her ring and saying, "paper covers rock".  She had to make it all about her.  I also got pissed off when she decided she wanted to smoke pot and Charlotte wasn't having any of that.  Is that any surprise?  Why would anyone thing Charlotte would just smoke pot on a whim?  Then Carrie tells her that she has to smoke pot because Berger dumped her.  What on earth?  Personally, I always thought Berger was Carrie's perfect match because he was just as screwed up and a head case as Carrie.

On 8/23/2017 at 3:50 PM, Melancholy said:

This doesn't get brought up or tested but isn't it an enormous betrayal of trust for Carrie to tell Aiden that Miranda is pregnant and planning on getting an abortion after Miranda asked for secrecy???? It would be a betrayal of trust even if Aiden wasn't close with Steve, but it especially bad because of that. What particularly kills me is that, for this episode, Carrie feigns that she just CANNOT keep secrets from Aiden. But then, most of their relationship features Carrie being disingenuous/dishonest with Aiden. 

On rewatch, Trey was being a good husband once he got over his bed/sex issues. Charlotte was the pushy one for flipping out at everyone because she wanted a baby immediately. I still have sympathy for Charlotte though. They just weren't right for each other and Trey was pretty damaged by his mother. But no one was a bad guy here. 

I understand not having secrets from your significant other.  I don't keep secrets from my husband.  But I also don't tell him stuff he doesn't need to know that have nothing to do with him.  Miranda's pregnancy had nothing to do with Aiden.  She wasn't keeping a secret from him by not telling him. She was just not sharing information that had nothing to do with him and was none of his business.  That's a big difference.

Charlotte really bugged me when the marriage was ending.  I understand that she wanted a baby and that is certainly something to have discussed prior to getting married, but a baby wasn't happening.  She needed to learn to be content with Trey because there is no guarantee a baby, whether adopted or biological, would ever happen for her.  I wonder what would have happened with Harry if the IVF continued to fail and they hadn't been able to adopt.  You can't expect something else to fulfill you.  It's okay to want it, but you have to learn to be okay with your circumstances.  In my opinion, Trey did nothing wrong and was more than happy to just be with Charlotte. They were a good fit.

[Melancholy]

4 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Charlotte really bugged me when the marriage was ending.  I understand that she wanted a baby and that is certainly something to have discussed prior to getting married, but a baby wasn't happening.  She needed to learn to be content with Trey because there is no guarantee a baby, whether adopted or biological, would ever happen for her.  I wonder what would have happened with Harry if the IVF continued to fail and they hadn't been able to adopt.  You can't expect something else to fulfill you.  It's okay to want it, but you have to learn to be okay with your circumstances.  In my opinion, Trey did nothing wrong and was more than happy to just be with Charlotte. They were a good fit.

I had sympathy for Trey and Charlotte at the end of the marriage. Trey and Charlotte believed they wanted kids. The prenup that Trey had Charlotte sign had financial remuneration to the wife for boys. They agreed to try for kids when they were married. The sticking point is that they didn’t discuss how hard they intended to try for kids and if they’d adopt if they couldn’t have them. I do think most couples don’t get that specific because most couples don’t expect infertility. Charlotte thought “wanting kids” was craving that purpose in life. To be frank, Trey seemed to think “wanting kids” was just saying Allrighty to the McDougal expectation to carry on the line. 

I don’t agree at all that Charlotte “needed” to learn to be content with just Trey and being childless. The right of people to parent a child is incredibly primal and at the core of humanity. Charlotte had every right to try harder at concieving or adopting so she could pursue that fundamental destiny. There’s no obligation, moral or otherwise, for people to give up on the dream of being a parent to get in line with their partner’s feelings to not have a child unless it comes easily. Trey understood that and gave Charlotte a dignified and generous divorce- that’s what he should have done. He was more generous than he needed to be but that was kind and good. Charlotte was very kind to work through his sexual problems so patiently at the start of the marriage. 

I doubt that a married hetero couple of means in the right age group with acesss to the best of lawyers couldn’t adopt at all. That goes for Charlotte/Harry and Charlotte/Trey. But still, even if she couldn’t adopt or give birth, Charlotte still has every right to try as much as she wanted to. That’s what Trey didn’t want to do but Harry did. 

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

I understand not having secrets from your significant other.  I don't keep secrets from my husband.  But I also don't tell him stuff he doesn't need to know that have nothing to do with him.  Miranda's pregnancy had nothing to do with Aiden.  She wasn't keeping a secret from him by not telling him. She was just not sharing information that had nothing to do with him and was none of his business.  That's a big difference.

Very well put!  In other words, this was Miranda's secret not Carrie's.  The latter should have kept her big trap shut.

[Melancholy]

On another note, Berger isn’t even an exemplar of the “He’s just not that into you” philosophy. He ran away from Carrie because he was freaked out by her emotional diarrhea combined with hardcore flirting but he came back. He doesn’t live this philosophy that a guy whose truly attracted wants to have sex and book the next date ASAP and he’s certainly not a good example of the “Men are simple. There are no mixed messages” because he was all mixed messages during their whole relationship. 

On first watch, I was on Carrie’s side with the SCRRRUUNCHIE story. And yes, Berger shouldn’t have been all passive aggressive and churlish about a little critique. But on rewatch, I’m more anti Carrie. It was a small critique but she got very grating on the subject and turned it into a bigger failing then even she perceived because she sucks witb words. “Good thing you got with me because you may know the gents but I know the ladies.” That does sound like a critique that Berger failed at writing women completely even though I bet Carrie didn’t mean that if she honestly thought the book was brilliant even in her own voiceover. Writers are very sensitive about newly released work. Carrie had to hold struggling mother Miranda as a captive to complain about Michiko Kakutani writing a rave review of Carrie’s book but joking that the men were disposable. 

Also, if Carrie ever met Lauren, Berger’s ex who cheated on him, I can TOTALLY SEE Carrie pulling a tic laden face after saying that she dated Berger right after. 

Carrie/Berger does stand out as the ONE relationship where Carrie was a peer instead of the child. It was dysfunctional and stupid but actually, not because Carrie was acting like and being treated like little girl. Unlike Big/Aiden/Alex. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Melancholy

[Inquisitionist]

18 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Carrie/Berger does stand out as the ONE relationship where Carrie was a peer instead of the child. It was dysfunctional and stupid but actually, not because Carrie was acting like and being treated like little girl. Unlike Big/Aiden/Alex. 

If you're saying that both Carrie and Berger acted like kids in their relationship, then I agree.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

22 hours ago, Melancholy said:

A SATC writer defends Carrie in Ring a Ding to CNBC  

Ugh. If only everything could be handwaved away like this. Why assess the merit of anyone's choices unless its proven that it ended in nuclear holocaust? Because past that, we're all still here and the best can be assumed? Anyway, it was an article that missed the main issues:

1) Does a friend have an obligation to give their financially irresponsible friend thousands of dollars to spare them from moving to a less desirable apartment because they spent beyond their means on restaurants, cabs, and especially designer clothes? Is not ponying up thousands being a bad friend? 

2) If the friend does have an obligation to subsidize their friend's financial irresponsiblity merely because they can afford to, is the financially irresponsible friend justified in going to their friend's apartment to scream at them for not ponying up and to shame them for dealing with their recently broken marriage by still wearing the wedding ring in their home? 

If you're not answering those questions, you're not providing an intelligent discussion of the ep. Not answering those questions, renders your comments worthless because it's most of why the ep is so hated/controversial  

There's also a crucial inaccuracy to say that Carrie turned to her friends, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte without mentioning that Miranda and Samantha were offering the money. 

As I've said before, I don't think Carrie paid Charlotte back. I can agree that there's no right answer there but actually, I have less respect for the Voice of the Author than I would have because at least this woman doesn't even get there was an issue with Carrie disrespecting Charlotte horribly which makes it less likely to assume the best that she paid the loan. 

There's also the point that Carrie wasn't in dire circumstances. She could've afforded a smaller apartment. She could've afforded a bigger apartment in New Jersey. She simply felt entitled to the life of a Manhattan princess, and apparently the show took the stance that Charlotte, who (like Samantha and Miranda) could actually afford the lifestyle that the four of them enjoyed, was supposed to make sure Carrie could too. 

 

One thing I hated about Carrie in the second movie was her screeching that the shoes she bought were only $40. It was presented as another wonder of Abu Dhabi. Or, you know, the United States, where very few people spend the way Carrie does on fashion. The writers so wanted us to find Carrie's financial cluelessness endearing, but it was repulsive. 

[Melancholy]

23 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

There's also the point that Carrie wasn't in dire circumstances. She could've afforded a smaller apartment. She could've afforded a bigger apartment in New Jersey. She simply felt entitled to the life of a Manhattan princess, and apparently the show took the stance that Charlotte, who (like Samantha and Miranda) could actually afford the lifestyle that the four of them enjoyed, was supposed to make sure Carrie could too. 

 

One thing I hated about Carrie in the second movie was her screeching that the shoes she bought were only $40. It was presented as another wonder of Abu Dhabi. Or, you know, the United States, where very few people spend the way Carrie does on fashion. The writers so wanted us to find Carrie's financial cluelessness endearing, but it was repulsive. 

There’s definitely a statement about Carrie’s entitlement to a retro happily ever after in how Carrie rejects Big’s money but badgers Charlotte into giving. The internal logic of the show is that Big should have IMMEDIATELY declared Carrie The One as she demanded in S1. If Big did his abso-fucking-lutely job, Carrie wouldn’t have these problems because she’d be a filthy rich man’s wife. Not even just co-signing herself to marrying a comfortably middle to upper middle class guy like Aiden who could still give her the apartment if they were together. So, she can’t let Big off easy and let him be a good guy for giving her no-strings money even though he could most easily afford to. Instead, Charlotte has to pony up. Not Miranda or Samantha but Charlotte because Charlotte was the character who got above herself and married well before the lead character Carrie. Charlotte no longer had to rely on her own self to live. She made it off that “hamster wheel” of being an individual responsible for taking care of yourself and consuming only what you can gather which Carrie still resents being on. The “It all worked out anyway” from the producer’s comment to CNBC is very much that Carrie got the luck she was owed with the book deal and ending up with Big  

And that’s why Carrie had to not do what most people would do- accept the freely given money from the ex-gazillionare boyfriend and refrain from badgering their recently divorced friend who is currently comfortable but not SET yet because she’s unemployed and her Divorce isn’t finalized. 

[ktwo]

On 10/16/2017 at 4:48 PM, Melancholy said:

A SATC writer defends Carrie in Ring a Ding to CNBC  

Ugh. If only everything could be handwaved away like this. Why assess the merit of anyone's choices unless its proven that it ended in nuclear holocaust? Because past that, we're all still here and the best can be assumed? Anyway, it was an article that missed the main issues:

1) Does a friend have an obligation to give their financially irresponsible friend thousands of dollars to spare them from moving to a less desirable apartment because they spent beyond their means on restaurants, cabs, and especially designer clothes? Is not ponying up thousands being a bad friend? 

2) If the friend does have an obligation to subsidize their friend's financial irresponsiblity merely because they can afford to, is the financially irresponsible friend justified in going to their friend's apartment to scream at them for not ponying up and to shame them for dealing with their recently broken marriage by still wearing the wedding ring in their home? 

If you're not answering those questions, you're not providing an intelligent discussion of the ep. Not answering those questions, renders your comments worthless because it's most of why the ep is so hated/controversial  

There's also a crucial inaccuracy to say that Carrie turned to her friends, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte without mentioning that Miranda and Samantha were offering the money. 

As I've said before, I don't think Carrie paid Charlotte back. I can agree that there's no right answer there but actually, I have less respect for the Voice of the Author than I would have because at least this woman doesn't even get there was an issue with Carrie disrespecting Charlotte horribly which makes it less likely to assume the best that she paid the loan. 

Thank you for posting this! Although it is maddening, it linked to this review of the same episode which is much, much more critical (and therefore awesome.)

https://filmschoolrejects.com/eleven-years-later-the-worst-episode-of-sex-and-the-city-still-enrages-a811139862e5/

[Inquisitionist]

12 hours ago, ktwo said:

Thank you for posting this! Although it is maddening, it linked to this review of the same episode which is much, much more critical (and therefore awesome.)

https://filmschoolrejects.com/eleven-years-later-the-worst-episode-of-sex-and-the-city-still-enrages-a811139862e5/

Now THAT is a great take-down!

Quote

Can you imagine being Charlotte in this situation, recently divorced and jobless, made to feel guilty for not ponying up cash to your most unreliable friend? Can you imagine being Miranda, pregnant and alone and willing to give thousands of dollars to her idiot friend? Can you imagine being Samantha, knee-deep in emotional waters you don’t understand, and having to worry about giving cash to your friend who has wasted her financial freedom on shoes that still pinch her feet?

Shut up, Carrie!

[Melancholy]

Also just because Carrie wasn’t obnoxious enough to Aiden and her friends and any notion of responsibility in that episode, she was also a bitch to her realtor and a shoe salesman. I empathize with her frustration with her realtor- but it’s clearly Carrie taking out her frustrations with her financial situation out on by her realtor by talking down to her and being snide. She’s even worse to the shoe salesman when she rips four pairs of shoes off the display and orders the salesman to get them in her size with an order to not let her buy them and she’s just having “fun” trying them. Of course, the poor salesman who works on commission says, “Fun for me.” It’s basic courtesy to refrain from forcing employees in the tip/commission economy from working for you for free. This isn’t engaging a realtor or car salesman in the long process of buying something so expensive and technical as a house or car even if they’ll likely not be part of the final purchase because a customer needs a long researched process to make a final choice and the sheer size of the commission keeps car salesmen and realtors in business even if most showings are fruitless. This is Carrie requiring no information to buy but just wanting to use a human like her own amusement park to waste a half hour or so of his day that he should be utilizing to make his living. 

But we’re supposed to have sympathy for Carrie for not being rich? 

Carrie and Samantha were both third grade Mean Girls to make fun of Miranda for having uncontrollable flatulence when she was 8 months pregnant. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Melancholy

[BBHN]

Quote

https://filmschoolrejects.com/eleven-years-later-the-worst-episode-of-sex-and-the-city-still-enrages-a811139862e5/

Apparently, the writer quoted here seems to be just as stupid as Carrie.

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/sex-and-the-city/news/a840905/sex-and-the-city-writer-defends-carrie-bradshaw-controversial-spending-money-ring-a-ding-ding/

[Inquisitionist]

4 hours ago, BBHN said:

Apparently, the writer quoted here seems to be just as stupid as Carrie.

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/sex-and-the-city/news/a840905/sex-and-the-city-writer-defends-carrie-bradshaw-controversial-spending-money-ring-a-ding-ding/

That looks like a repackaging of the article that Melancholy posted on Monday.  Rewatching that clip of Carrie intruding on Charlotte makes me angry all over again, in part because it was such manipulative writing.  They try to make Carrie sound reasonable and appear sympathetic when she's acting heinously, IMO.

[JAYJAY1979]

Charlotte was very reasonable explaining that she didn't believe friends and money mixed well, even trying to give an example of her father and his friend...but of course, Carrie thinks she's a special snowflake and above most people so she didn't want to listen to logic.

Only when Charlotte said that no one would hire her because she's over qualified did Carrie finally back off.  I think Charlotte giving in showed that she was the bigger person, and she was genuine when she admitted she was wrong usually.

[rozarina]

Charlotte seems stupid, but in fact, Charlotte's role is very strong and fair. I do  like that Charlotte values the family above all else. She believes in love and dreams of children.

[voiceover]

Mostly a Carrie fan, but just sat through one of her worst moments: Aidan’s country house, the pie crust, the squirrel, the burn.

For one thing: it always bothered the crap out of me that she claimed to have made by hand what was clearly a store-bought crust.

And the whole meltdown??  I am reminded of Laurie Metcalf’s retort in Desperately Seeking Susan: “Take a Valium like a normal person!”

[Qoass]

Quote

For one thing: it always bothered the crap out of me that she claimed to have made by hand what was clearly a store-bought crust.

I would have given that a pass but since when do you bake the crust first when you're making apple pie? Lemon meringue, sure, but apple goes into an unbaked crust.

[Inquisitionist]

12 minutes ago, Qoass said:

I would have given that a pass but since when do you bake the crust first when you're making apple pie? Lemon meringue, sure, but apple goes into an unbaked crust.

Guess the SatC writers knew as much about baking as Carrie did.

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 10/21/2017 at 1:09 PM, JAYJAY1979 said:

Charlotte was very reasonable explaining that she didn't believe friends and money mixed well, even trying to give an example of her father and his friend

I agree 100%.  Carrie came in like she she was entitled to money from Charlotte when in reality, Charlotte was right:  It is not her problem to fix Carrie's money problems.

 

On 11/29/2017 at 1:41 AM, voiceover said:

For one thing: it always bothered the crap out of me that she claimed to have made by hand what was clearly a store-bought crust.

Me too!  As someone who bakes a lot (apple pies are a specialty!) I can tell you NO ONE makes a crust by hand.  They are VERY labor intensive and Carrie, who stores stuff in her oven would never attempt it, let alone away from home.  And you spoon the apple mix into an unbaked crust.

 

On 10/17/2017 at 7:27 PM, ktwo said:

As I've said before, I don't think Carrie paid Charlotte back.

We have a plot for SATC 3!!!  

[ByTor]

On 12/15/2017 at 0:52 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

On 11/29/2017 at 2:41 AM, voiceover said:

For one thing: it always bothered the crap out of me that she claimed to have made by hand what was clearly a store-bought crust.

Me too!  As someone who bakes a lot (apple pies are a specialty!) I can tell you NO ONE makes a crust by hand.  They are VERY labor intensive and Carrie, who stores stuff in her oven would never attempt it, let alone away from home.  And you spoon the apple mix into an unbaked crust.

I bake a lot too but never ever EVER pies because I can't make crust (I refuse to use pre-made crust, I don't like how they taste)...it's either too tough or too sticky & I suck with a rolling pin.  But I do know plenty of people who make a crust by hand.

[movingtargetgal]

I remember the first time I saw the Aidan's cabin episode and saw Carrie making an apple pie.  Mr. Moving and I looked at each other and said WTF, their is no way that she would be baking a pie from scratch.  Maybe she would buy a frozen pie, "shape it" into her own pie plate and pass it off as her own.   I confessed to Mr. Moving, I did that that on the first Thanksgiving dinner I made for him.  It became a running joke between us so for his birthday I made him his favorite, lemon meringue pie from semi scratch.  I used a pre-made roll out crust but I squeezed lemon's, made the filling and whipped the egg whites.  I had to borrow an orange juicer and electric had mixer from a neighbor.  The pie came out looking beautiful.  I took pictures of it and sent it to my friends.  My hubby cut into it and the filling just ran all over the place.  It was like watching a dam break.  I was so upset but my husband was so happy at the effort. :)  He said it tasted great and then ate two big pieces.  

So no, I don't think Carrie Bradshaw would EVER go through all the effort to make a pie from scratch. 

[HunterHunted]

Something that just occurred to me was that Miranda tended to date guys with the most normal jobs (bartender, cop, lawyer, doctor, computer programmer). Most of Charlotte's guys were like her, WASPy. Samantha's love interests had a diverse set of jobs (artist, hotelier, music executive, college student, dildo model). Carrie's were very Carrie--outwardly interesting, but kind of a fuckwit.

Cosmo has ranked all of the boyfriends.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/news/a5327/miranda-hobbes-satc-boyfriends-ranked/#slide-1”

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/g3240/charlotte-york-sex-and-the-city-boyfriends/

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/g3336/sex-and-the-city-boyfriends-samantha/slide-1”

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/news/g3202/carrie-bradshaw-boyfriends-sex-and-the-city/slide-1

[Ms Blue Jay]

I could read you guys bitch about Carrie all day.  Oh god, it makes me feel so good.  I love the show, but I agree with so many of you.  

I loved Carrie in the early seasons, but I assume when SJP became Exec Producer Carrie suddenly became the shrieking infant prude.  She shrieks at least once an episode in the later seasons, and I don't think she did this even ONCE Seasons 1-2 but it's been awhile since I've seen them.